The Delphi Murders: First Person: Doug Carter: Part One

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of two children. For many people, now retired Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter became the face of the Delphi investigation. Some of those following the case would even carefully scrutinize every syllable he uttered, hoping to find hidden meanings about what was really going on in the case.

[00:00:25] But the public side of the job was only a small part of Superintendent Carter's responsibilities. He also needed to manage the logistics of the investigation, to ensure that people working on the case had a place to stay and food to eat. Doug Carter retired earlier this month. He was kind enough to take the time last week to talk with us about the Delphi case, which remains one of the most significant cases in his 40-year law enforcement career.

[00:00:52] I should note that early on in this conversation, I referenced an anecdote we heard from Lieutenant Jerry Holman, who of course played a key role in the investigation. Basically, Holman was spending untold hours working on the case. He had tickets for a concert he planned to attend with his wife, but he decided to skip that event so he could use those hours to instead work more on the case. Carter heard about this and insisted that Holman take the break and see the concert.

[00:01:21] He also arranged for Holman to have a nice dinner first. Lieutenant Holman told us that this taught him something about leadership, and not only taking care of yourself, but also caring for the people who serve under you. Now that the gag order is lifted, Carter and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with him. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well.

[00:01:51] These episodes are part of our first-person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us, email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.

[00:02:19] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is the Delphi murders. First person. Doug Carter, part one.

[00:03:26] I guess to get started, can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where did you come from? Yeah. Well, I grew up in La Porte, Indiana. I grew up in a state police family. My dad was a state trooper out of the Dunes Park Post. He's no longer there. And I decided I was either going to be a lawyer or a trooper like my dad, and I chose that path. So I started with the state police in July of 1984 and spent almost 18 and a half years as a state trooper in this county in Hamilton.

[00:03:56] I was convinced to try to run for share, which I never intended to do. I did, and I won and served two consecutive terms in Hamilton County. And then Mike Pence changed my life forever in 2012 when he appointed me the superintendent of the state police. I have to ask, you say your dad was a state trooper. Did he give you any advice when you went into this field yourself?

[00:04:17] He did. He gave me a lot of advice. I got to see him, obviously, growing up all those formative years and seeing how he cared deeply about other people and cared deeply about the citizens that he was sworn to protect and those that lived by us. And so I really had instilled that sense of service very early on in my lifetime. And he got to experience a little bit of my time as a superintendent before he passed away. So that was pretty cool. What made you decide law enforcement over the law? Not really sure. Looking back, I'm not really sure.

[00:04:47] I guess I just saw I lived with a guy that I so admired and I wanted to do all I could do to be like him. My uncle was a lawyer. So that was the other reason. That was the other career path possibly. But, yeah, I'm glad I chose this path. I guess one thing you mentioned being sheriff of Hamilton County. How is that different from being superintendent? What are the kind of different considerations county sheriff versus running? Oh, my gosh. I bet they're pretty different. They're very different. Yeah, they're very, very different.

[00:05:17] Obviously, being the elected sheriff, you're elected by the people. It was very difficult to get away in that role, especially in Hamilton County from 2003 to 2010. It was a very, very fast-moving ship. A lot happening here, exponential growth. One of the top five largest, fastest-growing counties in the country. So that created its whole set of local challenges.

[00:05:43] But the scope of the state police is just enormous. And especially because we provide law enforcement services all over Indiana in either the urban, the rural, or a suburban-type setting. And in those urban areas or those rural areas, we have to have a footprint. And it's very difficult to do. But it was also amazing to me what happened and continues to happen over the course of any given day in the state. It just rips your guts out. Yeah.

[00:06:11] So there's a lot of differences, similarities. The numbers are relative. Supervision of people and solving complex problems remain the same. You were the sheriff. You were the leader of the sheriff's department here in Hamilton County. You're the leader of the Indiana State Police for 12 years. You must have thought a lot. What makes a good leader? Just don't ever ask anybody to do what you haven't done and care deeply about other people. And I think those are the two tenets to core leadership values.

[00:06:41] And as long as you never lose sight of – everybody can be replaced. And servant leadership was very important to Mike Pence when he interviewed me. And the servant leadership issue came up. And I'll never forget that conversation. It was a really good one. What is servant leadership? It's not about you. It's about everything you do for other people, especially when no one's looking. And so you've just got to care deeply about other people. And I think people see it. I think it's not something you can pretend to do.

[00:07:11] Either you are or you aren't. Jerry Holman, who we'll be talking about a little bit later, he told us that you taught him something about leadership. And I wonder if you remember this anecdote. It involves a concert, an Eric Church concert. You remember that? I can refresh your memory. Yeah, help me. He was working very hard on the Delphi investigation. It was a concert. Yes. Can you share that story? Yeah, about him going down there? Yeah.

[00:07:39] Yeah, it was just an opportunity to give somebody an opportunity for a break and find a little bit of sense of normalcy. This takes, like many other professions, an enormous toll on your family. And I saw Jerry going into a place that I was really worried about him. So he needed a break. And I was able to help facilitate that break with a concert down here in Indianapolis. So I'm glad he took me up on it. If he didn't, I was going to tell him to. Order him to. Order him to.

[00:08:08] He was going to go see Eric Church. Well, I feel like then he implemented that for people through his direct reports. And so it's like it kind of went down the chain. I didn't teach Jerry anything. He already knew what that was all about. He's a pretty regimented guy, but he cares deeply about other people. I want to ask you, I mean, you mentioned the toll it takes on individuals in law enforcement and their families. How do you avoid, I mean, you've been doing this, this is your whole career, law enforcement. How do you avoid becoming cynical?

[00:08:38] Gosh dang it, you guys. You know, I saw my dad become really cynical and hateful over the course of his career. When he retired, and in those days, most police officers, especially state troopers, retired at 20 years. They made absolutely no money. So they always would seem, most generally, if they didn't promote up through the ranks, they would retire at that 20 or 21, 22 year range and then go out and find something else to do. But my dad became pretty cynical.

[00:09:08] And then not long before he died, I had a meeting with him, not meeting with him, but I shared some time with him, some private time. And he said, he called me Dugger. Can't believe I'm even saying that. But he did. He did. And don't become cynical like me. Use those words that you just used to me. And I said, Dad, I'm not, but I'm fighting it. And I probably will fight it for the rest of my life. Just a conscious effort to. But you've got to. Oh, you have to.

[00:09:36] There's so much coming, not just in me, but coming in all of us that sometimes it's very difficult to process that, right? I think once you think you've got it figured out, you better watch out. Because I believe there's something else in charge of us, not ourselves. So I want to go into the Delphi case specifically. Where were you when you first heard about something happening in Delphi? Do you remember that? Oh, I do. Yeah. I was in my office in downtown Indianapolis.

[00:10:03] There was some brief information from the night before on Sunday. But I was in my office that morning when I was briefed on the search. We weren't really involved very much at that time. And actually, we weren't involved. But it just continued to, time continued to tick on. We became very involved. And I remember where I was standing when I got the phone call that two bodies had been found by the river. Yeah.

[00:10:35] And what was your immediate, do you remember your immediate reaction and what that felt like? Well, you know, you deal with death, dying, and destruction every day of your life. And there was something different about this. I think part of the thing that bothered me early on and came to be very true was I didn't know a lot about Carroll County. But I knew that Main Roads didn't pass through it. And it was a very rural place. But I had no idea what was about to happen.

[00:11:05] Generally, for the 12 years I was the superintendent, I would get bad news almost every day. Not always like this, of course. But bad news almost every day. And how do you handle that? I don't have any idea, Kevin. I don't know. You know, you just muddle through it. You have to. If not me, then who? And if I have an opportunity in the course of my lifetime to have a positive effect on other people, I'm going to try it and do it. Not have any regrets.

[00:11:34] How quickly did you get up to Carroll County after this happened? As fast as my Dodge Charger would get me there, which is pretty fast. I was up there probably within an hour and a half, maybe an hour and 40 minutes. Were you able to go to or near the scene? I did. What was that like? Again, it's a bit of a blur because there was so much information. You guys know this better than I do, but we can get information pretty quickly.

[00:12:03] And so there was a flurry of information that I was receiving. And I realized that my job was going to be to do the very best I could to control or at least try and mitigate the madness that was about to happen. And that madness being natural, not anybody doing anything wrong. But you were going to have to have a large footprint as a state police agency. I knew that. But I didn't know at that point how large.

[00:12:29] So my job is to support those that know more about this than I do because I was never a detective in my entire career. And my job was going to be to support them. So those early days, there's often been talk of all this. So many agencies coming in to help, so much resources and benefit of that. And then the downside of that is that it's a management nightmare. Can you tell us a bit about that and how you as a leader are kind of... You just summarized it pretty darn well, actually.

[00:12:58] I answered you. You're welcome. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thank you very much. Now I've got some questions for you. No. Oh, no. The tables have turned. I didn't know it was about to happen. I did not know it was about to happen. We learned a lot over the course of those first five or six months, really. Not just the first five or six days, first five or six months. And I'm not going to be critical of anyone that tried to do the right thing, especially in those early days. This had gained momentum in ways I never dreamt that it would.

[00:13:29] And it's quicker than I ever thought it possible. So the only thing we could do was work this a day at a time as methodically as we could. There was no group think. And I think there's a lot of inference out there that maybe there was. There was not. And we were fussing with each other early on. I was fussing with people because I was telling them to go home after 36 hours and they wouldn't go home. So there was a lot that happened early on that we learned a lot about. We learned about our limitations.

[00:14:00] That's where the FBI really came into this in a very, very positive way. That Orion system had the capability. They could fire that up pretty quickly and they could take in a lot of information in a short period of time. We had the ability to take it in, but then what did we do with it? We didn't have the ability to collate it. We didn't have the ability to prioritize it or to share it. How were we going to share it?

[00:14:21] Because as time went on, we knew that no matter what happened, it was either we were going to get to a point where we were going to start over or we were going to get to a point where there'd be an arrest and we'd start over. So the common theme was we're going to start over eventually. So how do we manage that now? And that Orion system was very, very, very helpful early on. And I'm curious, you mentioned as in your job, you got bad news every day. Unfortunately, a lot of terrible things happened in a state the size of Indiana every day. Were you keeping up to date on this particular investigation?

[00:14:51] Oh gosh, yes, I was. Because remember, it was also just right after the floor fire. But again, I had no idea at that time what that all meant. You mentioned working with other agencies, the FBI's contributions. Of course, this was a Carroll County case. The ISP is no stranger to working with other agencies in cooperating. But how do you ensure that that happens smoothly where it doesn't get into some sort of territorial fighting? You know it will.

[00:15:22] You know it's going to. You know, this was a quote Carroll County's case. But I don't think that they'd ever had a homicide investigation before, at least with the current folks that were there. So I remember standing on the hill talking to Tobe, overlooking the bodies. And I said, Tobe, you don't have the capacity to do this. We're going to do it together. And that's exactly what we did.

[00:15:47] We did it together with a unified command, a structure that allowed us to consolidate some of our resources. Other than the IMPD, I don't think there's another agency out there that could have done this. Just because of the magnitude. We're not better than anybody. We're just different. We have more capacity. Just because of the size of our agency. But I also recognize that we're all type A personalities trying to solve problems. And that means we're going to fuss with each other. And if we didn't, we probably would have not done the right things.

[00:16:16] You get into that group thing mindset. Absolutely, for sure. But there was such a flurry of activity. You guys remember where we initially were in that co-op building north and west of the courthouse? It was unbelievable. I had to send planners up from special operations to manage food. I mean, it was unbelievable.

[00:16:39] At that time, the state police didn't have the capacity to buy things like water, like food, like hotel rooms. And there was this complicated structure at that time. And I remember thinking, well, I'm breathing air. I'm fixing this because these guys, the last thing in the world they need to worry about is food and water. And we're going to sleep at night for three hours and then go back to work. So I called the governor direct, and it was Governor Holcomb at the time.

[00:17:08] And within eight hours, we had the complete capacity and ability to do anything that we needed to do. Now, with accountability, of course, and I wanted that level of accountability to be there. But we could actually use a purchase card to buy food and to buy water. And then all of a sudden, all of these wonderful, wonderful families in Delphi started bringing the best food ever. We could have had a small army for a month and a half.

[00:17:33] So early on, those were the kinds of things that I was worried about as I saw these guys and gals just working tirelessly. Do you have any memories from those early days of just things that struck you or just that stand out in your mind as something that you'll never forget? Oh, the different rooms in that co-op building and the work that was being done in those rooms.

[00:17:57] What was on the walls, whiteboards, frustration, confusion, and all of the human emotion that we're not supposed to have that we all have. Yeah, it was a flurry of activity, and I really was proud of what was created in very, very early and very, very quickly, honestly.

[00:18:17] And I'm curious, you know, as you're being briefed on this, I mean, were there early thoughts on the kind of person that might have done this or what you were looking for? Not necessarily in my mind, because again, this is outside of my purview. It's not something I've never done before. There were obviously lots of thoughts and considerations.

[00:18:39] But I know this sounds cliche, because I've said it a thousand times, but I don't remember anybody talking about necessarily moving forward because of what they think. That's when I really learned the difference between what I think and what I know. And they're very different. They're very, very different. I don't think initially. The first time I realized there was probably a local connection was when I walked across the high bridge myself. And I spent a lot of time out there as time went on.

[00:19:07] And I remember specifically the first time I went across that bridge, I crawled back. It was horrible. It was frightening. And I'm not afraid of much, but it was really frightening. And when people think of the high bridge, unless they've been out there, they really don't understand it, right? But you're 70 feet off the deck, and I don't think a train's been on those tracks since 1929, 1930. Ties were missing. They were dilapidated. It swayed. You could feel the movement of the bridge.

[00:19:32] So I think one of my first thoughts was, in my own mind, this isn't going to be somebody that just happened to stop in here and walked across that bridge. I just can't imagine that being the case because it was terrifying. When did you walk it? Like how early on was that? Oh, within a day. Wow. Very early. I was there most of the night, that first night. And then I was back pretty routinely for the first five or six weeks, only in a support role.

[00:20:03] Yeah. I'm curious. You mentioned you didn't really know Delphi or Carroll County well. Yeah. And then you talk about it's the sort of place where people are like giving you food. Can you talk a little bit about the Delphi you came to know over these last years? Oh, and just tremendously kind people. So kind. You couldn't walk down the street without somebody coming up to you and saying thank you. You know, for a community that will never be the same, that was rocked to the very core of their conscience.

[00:20:31] I heard so many times we never locked our house. We never locked our car. We left our keys in. We know everybody here. And if we don't know somebody, we know a family member of them. But even with all of that happening, and even as the frustration began to be very ever present, they were still so kind to us. I'll never forget that. I will never, ever, ever forget that. I want to jump ahead to the New Direction press conference.

[00:20:58] But, I mean, there's so much that we as members of the public do not know about, you know, all the effort and time spent on this case. You know, we kind of all see things when there's like a big press conference or something's released. But anything else you wanted to add about those kind of early years or anything like that? Well, yeah, I think it's important that your audience, which is very broad, knows that as this gained momentum, it was very difficult to manage.

[00:21:30] And the notion that there was a cover-up early on, I'm not sure why a person would think that. Because I think today, especially in today's world, if you have the secret between two people, it's only good if one of them is dead, right? So the notion of a cover-up is just, it doesn't seem logical to me at all. But I also understand the frustration over time. I'm trying to understand the frustration over time because I felt it too.

[00:21:58] I never let on that I was concerned about this not being solved, but I was concerned over time. But in my heart, I believe that good always prevails and that it would be solved. Did I hope it was going to be while I was here? I was hoping that because I saw the enormous effort that human beings put forth to do that. I think the world grabbed a hold of this in large part because it's everywhere USA. I've used that terminology before too.

[00:22:27] The innocence of two 13 and 14-year-old girls. There's so much, there was so much to it. Not to take away from other homicides, other violent crimes, the floor of fires, none of that. But there were circumstances and dynamics in play here that made it different. And it's probably the most complex homicide investigation in Indiana's history. Certainly within the ISP.

[00:22:53] And I can't think of anyone other locally that would be more complex because of the involvement and the notoriety of it. Yeah, I feel like I'd be interested in your take on this. But I felt like one thing that really made this case become so high profile was the fact that Libby took a video of the killer of this bridge guy lumbering towards them.

[00:23:16] And I felt like that incited the public in a way where people felt like, oh, we can solve this if we keep talking and keep staring at this image. It almost made people feel like they could help, which can be good, which can be very good, but can also be bad because there's limits to, I think, sometimes, you know, if no one recognizes the person, there's limits to what some of the speculation. How can it be that no one recognized him? Yeah.

[00:23:45] I'm haunted by that question. You're right. I can't ever think of a case, at least in my time, where we have video, we have a soundbite, we have movement, close. I've said those things very publicly before. And if you knew someone that was close to you, you would know that gate, you would know that walk, you would know that sound, whatever it might be. That is a question that I hope one day, and if I make it to heaven, I get to find out.

[00:24:15] Along the similar lines, part of your job was doing things and thinking about things that are largely invisible to the general public. You talk about, you know, getting food and supplies to people. So you're very busy. Were you aware of the level of interest this was generating on social media? Yes, but I didn't really understand it. Yes, but I didn't understand it. I think that's the best answer I can give you. I don't have a social media presence by design, but it was gaining momentum very, very quickly.

[00:24:46] Were you aware that there were people who were like studying every word you said? Yes. How'd that make you feel? Our message is working. We want people to continue to think about this. I was very strategic in what I said I tried to be because I wanted to continue to keep it in the forefront. You know, it wasn't intended for me to be the face of this. That was not the intent. But I think over time, it just organically kind of happened.

[00:25:15] And I guess because of the position that I held. And there was just such attention. There was such attention. No one's ever asked me a question like that, Kevin. So I guess I don't know in what detail, but I do know there's a lot of people that hate me. Because of the things that I've said or the things they've taken that I've said and twisted them. I hate that. I can't help it. Because I never said anything I didn't mean. So while I don't understand the depth and the magnitude of what they have done with my words,

[00:25:45] I'm certainly cognizant of the review. So I think a lot of that culminated with the New Direction press conference in 2019. Hmm. What can you tell us about sort of – I mean, it wasn't like you guys just woke up one day and said, let's do this. There was a lot of debate about the sketch. And I know I've taken a lot of heat over the sketches. And that's okay. I think we gave you some heat over the sketch. I'm not going to lie. That's okay. Yeah. No, and that's okay. That's okay.

[00:26:14] But these guys and gals have been involved in this from the very beginning. You know, their intent is to not just keep this in the forefront, but it's also to keep people talking to us. And I've said all along, that sketch is not a photograph. The first sketch is not a photograph. It's some type of a recollection of a human mind and what somebody saw. Second sketch, same thing.

[00:26:45] And there was a lot of debate about whether or not to do that. And I told them towards the end of that, no matter what we do here, we're going to be wrong, so let me do it. No matter what we do. I do not want you to get derailed. I don't want you to become focused on something other than Abby and Libby in this community. So that decision was made. And I've said all along, and I believe it, that if you put those two sketches together and the arrest is made, you take them apart and there's a killer.

[00:27:14] There are similarities between the both sketches that will be the killer, essentially. But there was a lot of consternation about it. And again, that's okay. And I'm not going to be critical of the criticism of me. I'm not. I'm just not. But what happened over time is people kept talking about what they think and became what they knew. And then a narrative came out that really kind of threw us out of balance. Again, I'm not mad about that.

[00:27:44] Because if those people, all those people, hate us, like us, hate me, like me, it doesn't matter, kept us in the forefront of people's minds. And I think it really talked about the power of the human spirit and what people are actually capable of doing. Now, I hope we learned a lot from it, too. That maybe we ought to maybe get away from this instantaneous conspiracy theory because it's not been solved.

[00:28:12] But again, I'm not one to criticize people that I don't understand. And I'm not going to do that today. What was the narrative that kind of threw you guys off balance? Well, there were so many of them, right? There were so many narratives out there with different people and who, what, where, when, and why.

[00:28:30] And the FBI and Ron Logan and all of those things that happened that there were just suddenly then there was this divide in the message. And we owned some of that. Matter of fact, we owned a lot of it. But what we did at the time is what we thought was right. You mentioned kind of, you know, you being the face of it allowed you to take some heat that maybe would have been going to investigators or, you know, if they'd been more of the face of it.

[00:29:00] You know, one thing I know from speaking with Lieutenant Holman is that new direction was also meant to. It was kind of a press conference, it seems like, for one, for the killer to see if there could be an effort to have him make a move, address him directly. Can you tell us about what planning went into being, you know, having you do that? A lot. A lot. I've got to be careful. Yeah.

[00:29:30] There was a lot of criticism of me from the defense for doing, handling that press conference the way I did. And there was a thought that this had to be an FBI person that would have made that conclusion based on the study of the killer, that we would have made a comment that he could be in the room. And none of that's true. I mean, that all came organically. And frankly, independently.

[00:30:00] I remember in the kitchen in that room, Tony Ligon and I had a real significant argument about this direct, the direct link. And I told him that I appreciated his advice, but that's not what I was, I wasn't going to not do that. And it all stemmed from my initial experience on the bridge by myself. And we'd now, we've been at that, let's see, it was two and a half years.

[00:30:28] I think that was in April or so of 19, something like that. So yeah, we're two years and two years and a couple months out. We had to pick the scab off again. We just had to. And we had to really send a very strong message. I believe he was watching that day. And he might have been in the room. I don't know. He was only about a mile from us. Yeah, so there's no way of knowing if Richard Allen was in the room. No, there's not.

[00:30:58] Were there like people taking down names of people who showed up? There were. The best of intentions. One question I think a lot of our listeners would want us to ask you about that press conference is you made reference to the movie The Shack. Yeah. Was there any special meaning behind that? No, you know, when you said earlier, Kevin, about people taking my words, that's probably the most significant one. And I happened to watch that movie.

[00:31:26] And at the end of it, the peacefulness of that field. Because I had been haunted by how Abby and Libby must have felt at the end. One of them had to watch the other one die. And that's haunted me. But I also believe there's a place in heaven. I do. I really do believe that.

[00:31:53] You know, that movie, as silly as it sounds, made me realize that there's a special place there for them. And that's where they are. It struck me, too, as kind of an appeal to the killer. If there's any sort of compassion left in whoever did this awful thing, do the right thing. Sure. You know, get right. Truth sets you free. You know, and you kind of alluded to this, but I'm just curious.

[00:32:18] You know, our understanding is that some folks from Pennsylvania were kind of helping with this process, with New Direction. And, I mean, a lot of people were speculating, oh, this is all from FBI profilers or whatnot. But it really sounded like you also spoke from the heart. So how do you balance wanting to say specific things with kind of speaking from the heart and not going just on a script? I'm not a script kind of guy. Yeah. I'm not. Generally don't prepare remarks.

[00:32:48] Kind of wing it. And that got me, it's gotten me in trouble. But, again, I'm not going to apologize for that. I'm an emotional guy. I'm not going to apologize for that. I don't know how a person sees what's going on around them with all of the things these people are dealing with. And remember, that wasn't the only crime that occurred. From that day on, there were all these other things that were occurring, too. Not just with the Delphi murders, but around Indiana.

[00:33:16] And we had troopers traveling from southern Indiana to the north and the south and the east and the west and spending time there. And I got to see that. I was so lucky. I got to see that level of commitment. And I've seen so much death in my lifetime that I've not gotten used to it. I'm not. And it's hurtful. And so, yeah, that criticism of emotion, you know, fine. Criticize me. I'm good with it.

[00:33:46] And this was the other thing that came out. You mentioned this in your talk recently at post-conviction press conference. And then Tobe Lesenby, when we talked to him, he also alluded to it. And we were just curious. You mentioned then that there was an argument between you and then Sheriff Lesenby there. He kind of explained it as, you know, he wanted to be up there, too, with you. And what kind of had been discussed in the planning was more of one person being up there. And is that sort of how you would characterize it?

[00:34:15] What are your memories of that? Yeah. Yeah, there's no question. I think we have to be very careful with messaging, though. And two people could say something very, very similar, but it could be taken in a very different way. And we weren't able to do that at that time. We had to be as right as we could be. And, yeah, I'm sure that was an issue. He was the elected sheriff of the county, but it was way beyond him at that point. We talked a little bit about, obviously, a lot of other bad stuff was going on at this time.

[00:34:43] And some of it was at least brought out because of the Delphi case. I'm thinking of the Kagan Klein lead and the work of Dave Vito. Right. Can you talk a little bit about some of that? No. I mean, we just continued. We worked every single thing that we could possibly work. And Kagan Klein ended up in prison where he belongs. So, no. I mean, there were several of those kinds of investigations that came out of this with really good people trying to do the right thing, giving us information.

[00:35:12] But, again, it made it more complicated, didn't it? Because the perception of that, what people think versus what they knew, was very, very different. So that will all come out in time. What did you make of the work done by Detective Vito in that case? I love that guy. Dave Vito is just the very best of us. He's so kind and he's so smart and he's so committed. And you could just see it. You could just sense it in him that he is so very focused on doing the right thing.

[00:35:42] And there were so many examples, guys, about we do this. We're going to be wrong to a lot of people, but we're still right. We believe we're doing the right thing. And we did it anyway. What were other examples of that? Oh, my gosh. Everything we said over time, no matter what. If we didn't say anything, we were wrong. If we did say something, we were wrong because we should have said it before. So I learned that do the right thing each time and just let the chips fall where they may.

[00:36:12] David Vito is a great detective. I'm going to look forward to watching his career. He's got a very bright future ahead of him. And then I'm curious, you know, as all this is going on, you know, the investigation is still ongoing. People did not stop working it, even if it wasn't in the, you know, immediate public eye. But, you know, what was law enforcement and I guess your specific relationship like with the victims' families throughout this time as it's unsolved, but you're having to assure them we're still working this? Yeah.

[00:36:42] I mean, I think our relationship has been very good. They've been frustrated and upset, as they should have been with us, because there were things we knew we wouldn't tell them. And, but, but, but Mike and Becky and Anna and the rest of the family, if I called them right now, they'd be at my side in the same. I feel the same with them. It was actually, frankly, quite inspirational to see all the things that they did to try and find out who did this. Thanks very much to Doug Carter for taking the time to talk with us.

[00:37:11] We so appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Shade. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:37:33] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:37:57] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:38:27] Thanks again for listening. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear? Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

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[00:39:46] I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

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