The Delphi Murders: First Person: Doug Carter: Part Two

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children. For many people, now retired Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter became the face of the years-long investigation into the Delphi murders. This is the second of our two-part conversation with him. If you've not listened to part one, please go back and do so. Our conversation with Carter today will pick up with him learning about the forthcoming arrest of Richard Allen.

[00:00:27] Now that the gag order is lifted, Doug Carter and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. These episodes are part of our First Person Interview Series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking with us, email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders.

[00:00:54] For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders, First Person, Doug Carter, Part 2.

[00:01:21] And then I guess jumping into the Richard Allen side of things.

[00:02:10] How did you learn? Where were you when you heard that Kathy Schenck had uncovered this new promising lead? Barcelona, Spain. Where in Barcelona, I got to ask. We were on, my wife and I went on it. I hadn't taken any vacation time at all in 10 years. And we had this amazing opportunity with some friends to take a trip to Italy. So we did. We went away.

[00:02:40] As a matter of fact, a little bit of a funny story. The governor's chief of staff, his name is Earl Gude. He is a kindest, he's like a father to me. He's just the most wonderful human being on the planet. And I remember going over to see Earl and say, Earl, we have this opportunity. I've never been out of the country other than to Mexico. And we had this really amazing opportunity with some dear friends to take this trip. It's three weeks long. And he looked up at me. He said, well, Mr. Superintendent, we'll see when you get back. I'll never forget it. It was so cool. He's just the coolest guy ever.

[00:03:08] And so we ended up going on this trip. But anyway. I've got to interrupt for a second. You mentioned earlier it was important for people like Jerry Holman to take breaks. Yeah. Why didn't you take a vacation in 10 years? Because I'm a workaholic, I guess. I guess. My biggest fear is if I'm gone, something happens to a trooper I'm responsible for. And it happened three times while I was the superintendent. We lost three troopers in the line of duty. And I did not want to be on the other side of the world when something happened.

[00:03:38] So that's why I never did. I never really did. Yeah. So you're in Barcelona. Yeah, we're coming back home. First of all, I just got to ask, did you see La Grata Familia? Yes. What? That'll never be done. Yeah. I wonder. And I'm Catholic. So am I. It was so cool. I think I heard you were Catholic. I was like, yeah. It is so beautiful. That was one of the most meaningful, like spiritual things I've ever felt. I didn't really understand old until I was in Italy. Yes.

[00:04:08] And Dubrovnik, Croatia, and then those areas. And, you know, old here is a century and a half. Yeah, right. Europe is. Over there 3,000, 2,000 years ago, you know. The hundreds is crazy. Yes. And to be able to stand on the same stone in the little, yeah, we had a wonderful, wonderful trip. The first week I was a nervous wreck, just an absolute nervous wreck. And we were on a relatively small ship in the Mediterranean and we had a different port almost every day.

[00:04:34] And then the second week I'm thinking, oof, this is kind of nice. I can feel my blood pressure going down. And the third week I had no blood pressure. So, yeah, it was a really good trip and my wife and I needed that. And we were there with some just lifelong dear, dear friends. So anyway, enough about me. Yeah, sorry, sorry. That's off the record. I just. No, it's good stuff. It's all good stuff. Yeah. Leave it at. Okay. It's good stuff. Yeah. I derailed us. Okay.

[00:05:15] I had, I had, I had been catching glimpses of what was happening here during that period of time with Jerry and David. And, but that was the, that was really the, yeah. Do you remember how you felt? Not like I thought I would. Not like I thought it took me a while to process that because we'd all, everybody had been through so much. It took me a while to process it. What did you expect to feel?

[00:05:45] Total relief. Total relief. But I also remember, I remember them saying all those years for all those years, no matter what happens, if we get to the end, we don't have anybody start over. And at that time we had, you know, what 80 some thousand tips. And then the totality that hit me. Oh gosh, these guys, they got to start all over now. Yeah. It was, it was a bizarre feeling. Can you talk about that starting over?

[00:06:11] Cause I think people may not understand, you know, what it means to get someone, but that's just the beginning of to prepare for trial. Sure. Yeah. Preparing for trial. I mean, it's that, that's making the arrest to step one, but it's not meaningful at all until a jury finds someone guilty. Right. And, um, so that, that process all that, that process began and it was very difficult, but it, it, um, it began in earnest for sure.

[00:06:38] How do you as superintendent support, um, not only your own team, the state police officers who worked on this case? Um, but I mean, just the entire unified command, like throughout that process as now we're entering a pre-trial phase and going toward trial. Spending time with them all. Uh, and at that point it becomes Nick's case. Um, once it's presented to the, to the, to the state and the judge signed that probable cause affidavit, even Richard Allen was arrested, it's no longer our case.

[00:07:05] Uh, now there is a, there's an enormous amount of work yet to do, but it was really, really, from that point forward, it was very much pivoting around Nick. And, um, he was very prepared. One thing we noticed is oftentimes, you know, you would come to some of the pre-trial hearings, especially some of the ones where, you know, it might be a, a trooper had to go up on the stand or there'd be, you know, kind of controversy swirling in the press or whatever.

[00:07:32] Um, was that sort of an intentional show of support? No, a hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Again, the work didn't stop when he was arrested. And that, that level of, of, of, of, of, of intentional presence was important to me. Tell us about that, what that meant for showing your support for your team. I don't know. You'd have to ask them, but I, I'd follow them anywhere. I would do anything for them, but I would also hold them accountable. And I think they know that.

[00:08:02] Yeah, that, that's, that, that is very true. I remember I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but when the leak of the crime scene photos happened, we reached out to Jerry Holman pretty quickly. And I admit, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'll keep saying that to you guys. Oh, thanks. We, we owed it to the girls. Yeah. Uh, I'm just sorry. We couldn't stop it from. Yeah. Out there. Yeah.

[00:08:31] But he said, I don't know if this came from the defense or if this came from a state trooper, but if it's one of our guys, we're going to hold them accountable. So it feels like you've always been interested in accountability. Oh gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If it would have been one of our own, I, the outcome would have been very different than what it was with, with these two guys, you know? So yeah.

[00:08:56] I mean, it would have been a very, I would have handled that very swiftly. Yeah. I was struck at the time. His attitude was we're going to get to the bottom of it no matter where it leads. Right. Right. And, uh, at the same time, uh, we've mentioned this publicly. We also contacted people from the defense side and they didn't seem to have much of an interest in pursuing it. How did this leak, uh, affect the families?

[00:09:24] I can't even begin to be able to explain what that must've been like for them. I'm sure they're not considering saying I understand cause I don't. But how do you process seeing your daughter or your granddaughter or daughter murdered? Whether that be in the middle of the woods where they died afraid or on a table where an autopsy was being completed. It's disgusting.

[00:09:51] It's, it's completely, completely disgusting. Those pictures are important that they were taken, that they were, that they were certainly shared with people that needed to see them. But I don't know how you ever get over that. Some people have tried to downplay the leak. What do you, what do you make of that? I don't know how you possibly downplay it, but okay.

[00:10:20] Um, I want to go into, um, some of the, I think we, what would be honestly characterized as a tax against law enforcement and individual law enforcement officers in, in this case in the pretrial phase. Um, and during trial. Um, how did it feel like to see that happen? I couldn't protect them. I couldn't protect them. I couldn't protect them.

[00:10:45] We took, we took, and I, I, I think I made my, my feelings pretty clear the last press conference, but we took the gag order very seriously from judge call. I don't pretend to understand the decision she had to make, why she did, why she didn't. It's not for me to decide. That's why she's a judge and I'm just a simple policeman. But so when you get an order from the court, you buy it by that order of court. And that's exactly what we did all the while.

[00:11:12] It didn't feel like everybody else had to, they could say, do what they want, write what they want, create a public narrative if they wanted, whatever that might be. And, um, we just had to sit back and take it and we're, we're big people. But boy, did I ever want to fire back at him. Tell us about that frustration. Oh, it was brutal. It's brutal. It's like watching your family get, get, get, get beat up every single day. And there's nothing you can do about it. Son keeps getting off the bus with a, with a bloody nose and you can't, you can't do anything about it.

[00:11:41] So it's maybe not a fair analogy, but that's, that's kind of how it felt. And I didn't understand the why of it. Again, not for me to decide. So jumping forward to trial, what was testifying like for you? Well, it lasted four minutes. No, what do you make of that? Uh, no idea. Yeah. I have, I, I, I, I spent probably spent 20 hours preparing and you know, I had no idea what that strategy was. You know, that was up to Rozzy and Baldwin. I'm not critical of them.

[00:12:11] I mean, if that's, that's what they needed to do, but there was a separation of witnesses. So that was the only time I could be in that trial. So I came to a different, I came to a conclusion. Maybe that's why, but I don't know. How did you feel getting off at like off the stand after literally four minutes? Well, I looked at the judge, like, I remember looking over at. I remember that. And I just kind of got the, you're, you're done. Look. Um, you know, as you say, you weren't able to be at the trial, but certainly behind the

[00:12:41] scenes, you must have seen the hard work that Nicholas McClellan, James Lodge, and Stacey Diener did. Do you have any comments about them? And, you know, we were very careful not to talk about it during the trial. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't get up until I testified. I didn't get updates again. I didn't want any, didn't want any, anything coming from the judge that we did what we shouldn't do. But as, as I watched the local news coverage, I finally shut it off.

[00:13:08] I couldn't take it because I felt like with a couple of the networks, it was very one-sided. They would lay, um, you know, they, they drop a keyword or a buzzword and then they would talk about that keyword or buzzword from the defense perspective, but never how the state responded to it. So I think it was intentional. I hope not, but it probably was. I hope not, but it was sensationalism. And I finally couldn't listen to it anymore. And I had so many people during that period of time say, geez, what about that? What about this? This is what I heard on the news last night.

[00:13:38] And my response to me, calm down. We only heard one side, not the other. And it's up to the jury, not you. So let's, let's just everybody take a breath, but it was very difficult. I know certainly I've heard that some of the police officers, investigators received a lot of harassment from members of the public, some harassing emails and things of that nature.

[00:14:03] Do you believe the media bears any sort of responsibility for that, inspiring that sort of harassment by putting out misleading information? I do. I absolutely do. And you know, it's in my 40 year career, I've had wonderful relationships with the media. And even when it's hard for me, when you got to talk about, we don't want to talk about that. Talk about maybe an embarrassing situation with some, with a, with a police officer that I had to deal with. They made a, they made a bad decision. They committed a crime.

[00:14:32] They committed a felony or going to prison, whatever that might be. So I was always very candid and very forthright with them. And I thought we had that, that I thought that was a two way street, but I learned that it wasn't. The media is solely responsible for keeping this in the public eye. There's no question about that for this whole period of time. But I also think that they could have been very, very helpful, not for, not for law enforcement, but for the community that's watching this sometime, not all the time. And to calm down some of the rhetoric.

[00:15:01] I think they could have reported on that better, more conclusively with a little bit of depth and understanding because they carry tremendous weight. Your message, your, your, your, your, your, uh, people that are out there around the country that, that listen to you guys. And you have tremendous influence over those that you listen to that listen to you. And I think maybe we, I hope we could have, we did, could do better next time. We did have a debrief with the media.

[00:15:31] We hadn't, we had quarterly meetings or quarterly meetings with local media. And I was able to attend that one of the last things I did with the media in November, December. No, it would have been after December 20th. And I said, what I'm saying to you. It was really striking to me being in that courtroom every day and witnessing things and then seeing it covered completely differently in the media. It's fascinating you say that I've heard, you've said, I heard you guys have said that before. And that's fascinating to me.

[00:16:01] And in an ironic, I don't know what's the why of that. Do you know? I was going to ask you, cause you, you're obvious you're, you're savvy about the media. You've dealt with the media for years as superintendent. It's not like, why, why was the coverage? So what was your take on that? I thought it was completely unfair. And I don't think it had anything to do with our, with the system of justice that we have. I mean, in fact, I think it was detrimental to it.

[00:16:27] And you, you, you could see who was interacting with, with who on breaks and at lunchtime outside the courtroom and the courthouse with members of the media. It wasn't the state. I guess one thing that came to my mind is I felt like a lot of people didn't seem to understand how criminal cases work, which surprised me. Yeah.

[00:16:53] And I felt like maybe that was part of it, but it really, we felt like we were losing our minds at one point because it was just like, we're seeing this play out, you know, it's, it seems pretty concrete and it's being reported on in a way that just doesn't resemble reality at all. It created a public narrative that was not in favor of the system. Didn't it? Right. Yeah, I did. It did. And I think it was very deliberate. I, I just, I guess it's like, I, I, you would have expected it to be more down the middle.

[00:17:21] I guess I would have expected it to be a lot more down the middle, not favoring law enforcement, not favoring the state, not favoring the defense. Just absolutely right. Here's what's going on. And it really seemed a lot more sensationalized than that. And I was, I was surprised. I mean, not everyone, some people I thought did a good job. Um, but, but generally it was shocking.

[00:17:41] I want to go back to what I feel like we all expected you to testify about a trial, what the defense had been building up in their opening statement, by the way, that just remember, I can only talk about what was talked about in trial. I understand, but you meant this does go back to something you didn't know the positive relationship with the FBI. Um, this narrative that came out in trial was that the Indiana state police and the FBI had some massive falling out and you booted them out of the case. I mean, is there anything you can comment on that?

[00:18:12] There comes a certain point in time where you have to consolidate resources for the good, the bad and the ugly, whatever it might be, doesn't really make any difference. If we were getting along, if we were fussing with each other, it really doesn't make any difference. But we had to consolidate resources and make sure that everything that everything that was out there was in the same place. We took a lot of heat over discovery. And there was a, there was a, uh, concerted effort to bring all of this under one roof.

[00:18:40] We have a requirement that we record interviews, audio and visual. So the FBI doesn't, they don't have to do that. They operate under different rules and there was no federal nexus. Hum, there was no homicide federal nexus to them. So they were hugely beneficial to us. But there comes a point in time where we have to bring it all to one roof. And that's what we did. And that's pretty much what I could say about it.

[00:19:04] It sounds like a logistical situation more so than like some more, more, more of that than anything else. So you mentioned you, you got the call about Abby and Libby. You're there as quickly as you can. You're involved in this ever since then years of work, years of caring about this case, caring about the families. What was it like to be in the courtroom when the verdict was delivered?

[00:19:34] There was a certain piece that came over me that I could never even describe to you. I couldn't, I can't. It was, uh, the culmination of a sixth of my life for the community, for the, for Richard Allen's family, for the defense, for the families, for all the people, you guys. You've been involved in this from the very beginning as well.

[00:20:04] There was just a sense of, sense of closure that was so peaceful. And that's, I think also, you might want to ask me about this. I don't know if it's on your questions or not, but what Guy Relaford said to me. It probably the most profound thing I've heard on, uh, in regards to our system in my lifetime, because everybody's got a perspective, right? We just talked about that. How you report that is subjective, but everybody's got a perspective.

[00:20:34] But the only perspective that mattered was that jury. Because no one, not even the judge saw what they saw or heard or felt. They were the ones that could see all, they could see the state. They could see the defense. They could see the witnesses come and go. They could see how they were breathing, sitting on the stand. They could see eye contact. What were those clues? What were those indicators of, of truthfulness? And that's what our system allows, right?

[00:21:00] And then when that had, when, when Guy said that on the radio, I called him within an hour or so. And I said, he, cause Guy and I've had our differences, but he's a good guy. He's really smart. And he takes my phone calls. And we, I just called him and tell him, thank you for what he said. I don't think he understood the profoundness of what that meant. And I hope, I hope that citizens and people that are paying attention to this understand that too.

[00:21:26] This wasn't about Richard Allen on trial, um, facing Jerry Holman or Doug Carter, Nick McClellan or Dave Vito or Ben Rector. The list could go on and on and on. This was a trial in front of his peers. And the only people that mattered were them. It really helped me when I, when he said that. And I thought about that because we have a singular perspective. And that's sometimes unfair. They didn't have a singular perspective.

[00:21:57] So. Just a 16 everyday people who sort of came together and. They gave, look how much of their life they gave up. Can you imagine having no contact with the outside world for what? 16, 17 days, no phone, no news, no nothing. And they're bombarded with these horrible, horrible images. Oh my gosh. They can never unsee. That they'll never be able to unsee. So kudos to them. Kudos to them. When I was in the courtroom.

[00:22:25] Both during my brief testimony. And all, and also at the end. The, the attentiveness was really pretty profound. So they took their responsibility. Pretty seriously. I was proud of them. And by the way, I would have been proud of them either way. I'm curious. What did you do after the verdict? Like, did you just go home or like what happened? No, I went back, I went back over to Nick's office and.

[00:22:55] It was not a celebratory. It wasn't celebratory at all. I spent some time with the family across the street. Um. With, with, with the detectives, with people that were in the courthouse. And it was just kind of a somber time. Nothing was celebratory about it. This isn't. And I've never felt that. I've never felt celebratory about it. You mentioned Nick. What was your relationship like with Nick McClelland?

[00:23:22] Nick was as prepared a prosecutor as I have ever seen in my career. And I've seen a lot of prepared prosecutors. Stacy and Jim, the, the synergy that the three of them had together. I, I could not be more proud of them. I just couldn't be more proud of them. And this is, this is a young prosecutor that was a defense attorney. Right. In a community where he grew up. And he never had a trial like this. Very few prosecutors in India have.

[00:23:52] So he'll, he'll, he'll go down as, as the guy that did. He had that, that trial of a century. And I could not have been more proud of his preparedness. I'm not going to tell you initially I was, I was concerned. But man, did he not, he, in my opinion, he knocked it out of the park. Because he was prepared. And every single hearing he was prepared. And I'll tell you, he, he was a taskmaster for us. And that's awesome. I love that.

[00:24:20] Again, if people could have seen it, then this notion of conspiracy theories would probably at least be diminished. How was he a taskmaster? Oh gosh. Organized. He was just, he was organized. I remember in the office one afternoon and I don't even remember what this was for. Pre-trial planning maybe. I don't remember. And there was a question about a statement. And I'm not even, I don't remember. It wasn't about me.

[00:24:44] It was about, he and Jerry were, were talking about this statement and there was, there were boxes of information. He knew exactly what box to go to, to find that statement. And he did within a minute and a half. He had, he had it in thousands of pages of documents and he was able to pull that statement out. Jerry was wrong by the way, which was kind of cool too. So they kind of, you know, they, they fussed with each other a little bit about that, but he was very, very, very organized. And he expected it from everybody. He made us better.

[00:25:14] Jerry, of course is Jerry Holman. You talked a little bit about him in your remarks after the sentencing. Can you tell us a little bit about Jerry Holman and what he means to you? Oh my gosh. He's like a brother. I never had. Um, I didn't know Jerry Holman. I mean, I, he had, um, he had served up in the Lafayette area. Uh, uh, so for four years, three years or so, um, as a superintendent, I knew of him, but I never had spent a whole lot of time with him.

[00:25:41] I prided myself on knowing every face on the ISP and a lot of the names. And Jerry was just one of those guys that stood out. He, uh, he went to the FBI national academy and my father went there in 1979. And he did a lot of research on my dad while he was there and brought me back a coffee cup and, uh, they were both Marines. So he brought me back a coin. And I just thought to myself, there's something special about him. And, um, my favorite movie or TV show ever is Gomer Pyle US, Gomer Pyle USMC.

[00:26:10] And he looked just like Sergeant Carter with that flat top. So I, there was always a kindred, kind of a kindred spirit there with, with Jerry and I, but then I got to see what he did when no one was looking. I got to watch him from afar and see the level of commitment because somebody had to pull all this together. And no one on the planet was capable of that other than Jerry Holman. I don't mean any disrespect to Tony or Kevin or, or Tobe or, or Steve Mullins.

[00:26:39] No one had the capability of doing that because he did not care what people thought. He can be gruff. He can be stubborn. But at the end of the day, what he's doing is, is making sure that he does everything within his power to keep us on the straight and narrow. And he upset people a lot. That means he did his job. And I'm proud of him for that. And he took all that. He took all of it on the chin.

[00:27:09] Jerry Holman is one of the finest human beings I've ever known. I wanted to ask you guys. I mean, I've gotten obviously at times a lot of flack over this case. And we talked about some of that. Yeah. Looking back, are there things that if you could go back in time, you could say, hey guys, handle this differently or? Oh yes, of course. Of course. We were, we were tasked with performing a surgery we had never done before.

[00:27:38] And it was painful. We would lighten that pain. No, I, gosh, I don't know about you guys. You, you, you might live perfect lives. Oh, we do. But I look, I look back at, I look back at yesterday and think, dang, I wish I had said that to my wife and not this. Or, you know, I wish I had called my mom yesterday, but I didn't. So, I mean, yes, the answer is 100% yes. But the real, real, real, the real task is, did we do what we knew was wrong when we did it?

[00:28:08] People hate that I say that. But what else do we have? Right? What else do we have? We never sat in a room and said, we want to, we want to send out this message because we know it's going to be confusing. It's going to screw everything up. People are going to be pissed off at us, but we're going to let the chips fall where they may. We'd never said that.

[00:28:32] We anticipated or we tried to anticipate a response based upon what we did because there was very little we had. People thought we had more than we had. So what we did have, we had to keep very close to the best. Make sense? It does. So, yes. From a strategy perspective, we did the very best we could over a period of time. And, but yeah, there's lots of opportunity to learn.

[00:28:59] What would your advice be based on this experience to another agency dealing with another high profile case? Yeah. Yeah. Learnings that you kind of leaned. I've been asked that from around the country, actually. And the, um, I think the message, even though people hate this too, slow as fast, slow down, slow down. Find a space where you, where you can sit uninterrupted, unimpeded. Nobody has access to you. And very early on start strategizing about what might happen.

[00:29:30] We were in a very react. We reacted. That's all we knew to do. We reacted to things early on that maybe we shouldn't have. So to have that, have that, that, that center, that brain place where the key players are there. Unified command is explained. A lot of people up here, up there did not understand unified command and never had to do it before. What does unified command mean?

[00:29:58] How do we process information? How do we share information? Who's going to be doing what? Who's holding account? Who's holding this task group accountable for reporting structures and failure of equipment? And recording devices in all of those things are so very important, um, that we did the best we could at that time, but we learned so much about it. And I think by the time we really got our arms around it, it was a little bit too late.

[00:30:28] And I, and this might get me in a little trouble, but that's okay. Everything's fine for the first three days, but after that people get tired and they get frustrated and they're, they're going to leave and go on. And we knew we couldn't do that. So the excitement's the wrong word. The thrill's the wrong word, but the adrenaline of the first couple of days, when something like this happens, it just, it just really hits everybody at their soul. But then eventually it's, it's kind of like a, it's kind of like a funeral.

[00:30:56] Eventually everybody that came has got to go back to their lives. And we knew we couldn't do that. We knew we, we don't know how long this break's going to last or how long this, this funeral is going to take. We're not going, we're not going anywhere. So I mean, a long answer to that question, but it was, it really is a, it's a good question. And I hope people reach out. It doesn't matter the color of your shirt. No, I had zero tolerance for that. Zero tolerance for this is mine. This is ours.

[00:31:27] Um, stop it. You know, that's just, that's selfish bullshit. Stop it. This is about those two little girls, not about you or me, or who's going to be on the camera. None of that mattered. None of that mattered. But there had to be a consistent message. And generally that comes from a single person. So. What do you think that is the biggest misconception out there about this case that's taken hold with the public?

[00:31:55] That there was some, that there was some planned conspiracy and we knew this all along. That's very hurtful. It's also patently ridiculous. It is. It's that we didn't do everything that we could possibly do. You know, that we didn't release information that could have been sensationalized to, to affect, um, an outcome. Maybe that outcome is newsworthy. Maybe it's not. I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't know.

[00:32:22] I'm curious, just you, you, you were superintendent for so long and I'm just, is this something you've noticed? Has there been a shift from criticizing law enforcement for mistakes or focusing on that to more of the conspiracy side of things, of things are going wrong purposely? Is that increased? Oh yeah, for sure. Okay. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And you know, um, we're going to do a whole other podcast on this, but post May, May 20th of 2020, George Floyd, law enforcement's forever changed.

[00:32:52] And we should be, we should be. I'm not afraid to talk about the color of my skin versus the color of others. And we have to have those conversations, those hard conversations. What we learned from that is don't run from your mistakes. We own law enforcement owns a lot of the divide with, with white and black and white and brown, the way we treated people historically. What are we training for? And why do we understand cultures? What, what's the difference? The list go on and on and on.

[00:33:20] So I learned a lot through that period and I'm okay with criticism. I really am. But now with all the appeals that are coming, once the guilty verdict was there and the sentencing occurred, now all the, the appeals are all coming. And again, they're being reported from a singular side. Uh, we just need to prepare ourselves for that. I don't blame Richard Allen for doing what he's doing. I don't blame Rossi and Baldwin for doing what they're doing. That's, that's kind of what they do, right? That's what they do to, to, um, to contribute to this world.

[00:33:48] So let's let it play out. Let the system decide what the future is, not a person. And, um, we'll be okay. Before Anja gets back to some of the more serious questions. I have to ask Anja had never watched Gomer Pyle until she met me. I think what about the show appeals to you? What about the show appeals? Oh gosh, just the comedy.

[00:34:12] They're just the humor and, and, um, um, you know, the interaction with Gomer and Sergeant Carty look just like my dad too. My dad had a flat top till the day he died. And the simple, how simple life was then. How simple it was. It also seems like there's a message there that Gomer approaches the world with decency and honor. Yeah. And he ultimately changes the people around it. He did. He did. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:34:40] There's so many of those, those sitcoms that that, in that, in that, in that period of time that, that accomplished that too. And I guess I've kind of become the guy I used to complain about, you know, but at the time I didn't realize it, but it did have profound effect. And I've also learned, we did a lot of work up in the city of Gary. We took over the Gary police department for 12 or 14 months and you can't hate up close. You just can't, you just can't.

[00:35:06] So there, there have been some negatives, some naysayers out there that I have personally reached out to from around the country. Um, it has some really nice conversations. So we disagree with some, you know, then it turns again and, you know, the hate starts coming back out again. But I reached out to them personally because it's important to me what they were thinking and why they thought that way. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it didn't in there. You know, I'm, I'm going to keep doing that. Cause I'm a human being. Are people surprised when you. Oh yeah. Yeah. Very much so.

[00:35:37] Yeah. I can't imagine you, you, you criticize the superintendent and the next thing you know, he's on the phone reaching out to you wanting to hear you out. Well, I'm not that I'm a superintendent. I'm just a, I'm just a guy that cares deeply about, about what they care deeply about too. And we can, we can talk about it and might have to agree to disagree, but we have to hate each other. Is that over the, that was over the Gary situation, not Delphi, right? No, it's Delphi. Oh, wow. That's wild. How has this case emotionally affected you? Dang you.

[00:36:10] You know, uh, it's been the culmination of my entire career and this, there's just been so much sadness, so much sadness over time. Um, but the good side of it is I got to see the best in people too, but you can't unsee what you see. You just can't. That's why I was so offended by the pictures. You can't unsee. And if it was truly an accident that it was true, then that's okay.

[00:36:35] But you, people on the internet that have access to the internet and click on those pictures can, well, they will never be able to unsee. That's for me. You know, that's for me to die broken, to see stuff like that. It's not for the common person to see those kinds of things, especially your own family. So, um, it's, it's, it's had a very significant effect on my life. What about the other investigators who worked on the scene? I, I'm thinking of, you know, on, on, on unified command, my understanding it's, it's from state police.

[00:37:03] It's Jay Harper, Brian Harshman, Dave Vito, Jerry Holman. Am I missing anyone? No, we, they were almost, we had 240 people, 243 people that took time on this case or over this period of time. But those are the key ones. Yeah. Yeah. Those were certainly the key, a lot pivoted around those individuals. Um, and do you have a sense of the impact that this case has had on? Exact same. Yeah. Exact same.

[00:37:29] What was it like to go from this storm and then retire immediately after? Dang you. Yeah. Yeah. I, I realized early on, even though I couldn't prepare for it completely that in my role, I don't have a dimmer switch. I mean, they're on or I'm off. And January 13th at 4 30 PM, I was off.

[00:37:58] So that's got, I guess a bit of a double-edged sword. I'm sleeping better. I actually turn my phone off at night. I don't worry about that. I still worry about the people. I still worry about them every single day. Um, but it's very different now. And I guess I'm at a point in my life that I needed that release. So it was time. I served for two governors and, um, it was time.

[00:38:22] And, um, you know, I, we kind of touched upon this, I think, but, you know, what do the investigators and the prosecutors mean to you who worked on this case? Having gone through all this. I'll never forget them. I'll never forget them. Even though my professional life is over, my public life is over. I will never, ever, ever forget the people that have impacted this, this case. Um, I just won't, I just, I just won't. What are the families of Libby and Abby mean to you?

[00:38:53] We're, we're inextricably connected for the rest of our days. We don't talk all the time, but, um, when we do talk, it's like we just were, yeah, we're together yesterday. Often in many, many occasions, they showed the patience of Job, but there was also times I'm thinking to myself, dang it, stop it. So we had that kind of a relationship, you know, kind of like a brother and sister and, and, um, because we could talk to each other and Mike could get mad at me and that's, that was okay.

[00:39:20] And then we would, we'd sit down and he'd say, I love you brother. And we'd give each other a hug and off I'd go. So they're, they're very, very special to me. Yeah. And then what do the memories of Libby and Abby themselves mean to you? I see him every minute. Yeah. I see him every, every single minute. We've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything we haven't asked you about that? No, I thought you were going to be hard questions.

[00:39:49] Hey, when you're saying dang you, I assume that's a hard question. No, that's true. Touche. Touche. You got me on you. That you, you got me. Yeah. No, I, you know, I don't think so. I, I, um, um, one of my regrets is the floor of fire still unsolved. And I, I believe, I really truly believe again, it's my own gut feeling that the person that set that fire that night did not intend to kill those four little girls. There was a consequence of their actions.

[00:40:21] I can't imagine what Gay Lynn is continuing to deal with in her life. That's a bit of unfinished business for me. And I really, I hope that one day that, um, we can, we can wrap that up and bring some closure in closure for her. I spent a lot of time across the street from that burned out house since that happened. And, uh, you know, I, I would get off the beaten path and I'd go places. If I'm going to go north, I'm not going to get on the interstate.

[00:40:49] I'm going to get on a county road until it didn't go any further. And then I'll just figure out which way. And I oftentimes I would find myself in Flora and I'd sit across the street and look at that house and kind of wonder, the wonder why. And now that house is gone. And it was, it's just kind of weird. It's just very, very strange. It's very weird. And again, I think of Galen all the time. How do you deal with the emotional load of all of these people connected to these terrible events that you, it means so much to you? Yeah. Well, when I, when I took office, I had blonde hair.

[00:41:18] Not as, and I, I used to tell my wife, it must be the lights, but it's not, it's all gray now. And, and I, I've, um, you know, part of me is dead inside, but that's just, just kind of part of the responsibility. Are you okay? Like now? Oh no, no, no, I'm not okay. I will be okay. I will be okay. But no, I'm, um, like other people that have done that, that have done this kind of work for a long time. You're, you're damaged just the way it is because what we deal with is not normal.

[00:41:47] It's certainly not natural, but I've also learned it's okay to not be okay. And there's help out there. And I want, I hope people will reach out and get it. What's the process like to get back to being okay? I think time probably, it was probably time for me to step away from, from it. I think time will help. Um, getting some professional help is helping. Um, redeveloping a relationship with my family, my wife.

[00:42:18] I think she'd be the first to say that, you know, I've always, I've, I've, I've been number two and God bless my wife because she's always allowed that. And she's never, never really said, Hey, I don't want you to do this anymore because she knows how important it was and how much it mattered. But it's going to take some time for that to happen. I enjoy being by myself. I enjoy quiet time now. Like I didn't think I would, but I've got a great work workshop at home.

[00:42:46] And so I spent a lot of time out there, but I'll find something else to do sometime in the next couple months. Yeah. I'm not a retired kind of guy. I don't think she likes me that much anyway. I can tell you a number of state troopers have said, your wife, I think makes some great food and like brings it into people and they always look forward to it. Yeah. Yeah. She's, she can walk shoulder to shoulder with any sailor in the world, but she'll do anything for anybody. So yeah, she's, uh, she and then my daughter both are just there. I love them dearly.

[00:43:13] Is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to talk about or mention? Um, no, I don't think so. I don't. I think you guys really, you guys knocked it out of the park. Thank you so much. And thank you for doing this. And thank you for your service within state police in all this case. It's been my pleasure. Thanks very much to Doug Carter for taking the time to talk to us.

[00:43:40] We so appreciate all the care he took in doing this very important work. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:44:03] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:44:28] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:44:59] Thanks again for listening. Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns? Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting.

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[00:46:28] Tier one compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, and SEC registered investment advisor. You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear?

[00:46:56] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have. Yeah.

[00:47:25] And deservedly so. Also, like I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[00:47:54] I mean, that's a little bit of a you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So, no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really. I longer them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

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[00:48:50] VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a long time sponsor.

[00:49:17] We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this, like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value. Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do? Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.

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