The Delphi Murders: First Person: Major Pat Cicero: Part Two

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[00:01:45] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[00:01:51] It gets into some of the gruesome details about what happened to Delphi murder victims Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

[00:01:57] So please just keep that in mind.

[00:01:59] On February 14, 2017, crime scene investigators were confronted with an appalling crime scene in the woods at Delphi, Indiana.

[00:02:09] 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams lay in a shallow depression.

[00:02:14] A killer named Richard Allen had held them at gunpoint, forced them across a creek, and then slit their throats.

[00:02:21] Liberty and Abigail are no longer around to tell us what Allen did to them.

[00:02:25] But crime scene analysis can help answer some of the questions we have.

[00:02:29] The Delphi prosecution team, Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland, Stacey Diener, and James Luttrell,

[00:02:36] effectively wielded forensics within the pretrial phase of this case and during the trial itself.

[00:02:42] One key witness that bolstered those efforts was Major Pat Cicero of the Laporte County Sheriff's Office.

[00:02:48] Major Cicero testified at both the three-day hearings over the summer and at the trial this past fall.

[00:02:55] The state of Indiana certified him as a crime scene investigator back in 2004.

[00:03:00] He is a forensic expert with bloodstain pattern analysis, and he has decades of experience.

[00:03:05] Now, he even trains new crime scene investigators in crime scene management and investigative approaches,

[00:03:11] and he's an adjunct instructor at the University of Tennessee's National Forensic Academy.

[00:03:17] Major Cicero was brought into this case to look into the blood at the crime scene.

[00:03:21] After familiarizing himself with the scene and even conducting some experiments with his own blood,

[00:03:27] he testified about this brutal crime.

[00:03:29] He spoke about how these girls died, their pre-mortem movements or lack thereof,

[00:03:34] and the efforts that Alan took to conceal their bodies.

[00:03:37] One important note, unlike the vast, vast, vast majority of trial experts,

[00:03:43] Pat Cicero takes no payment for his work at trials,

[00:03:46] not even in instances like in the Delphi case where his testimony got bumped back

[00:03:51] and he was required to spend an extra day there.

[00:03:53] He just sees it all as part of his public service.

[00:03:56] Today, we will hear about how Major Cicero came to work on the Delphi case,

[00:04:00] his findings on what happened to the girls,

[00:04:02] and his assessment of the theory of the crime laid out in the defense's first Franks memorandum.

[00:04:07] Now that the gag order is lifted,

[00:04:09] Major Cicero and others are free to speak about their experiences working this case.

[00:04:14] This will be the second of two episodes featuring our interview with the Major.

[00:04:18] They will be released on the same day,

[00:04:20] so go back and listen to part one if you have not done so already.

[00:04:23] These episodes are part of our first-person interview series.

[00:04:26] We seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case

[00:04:31] as possible in the coming weeks and months.

[00:04:33] If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us,

[00:04:37] please send us an email at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:04:40] This is all part of our ongoing effort to report on the Delphi murders.

[00:04:45] For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly

[00:04:48] from some of the principal figures in the case.

[00:04:50] That all changes now.

[00:04:52] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:55] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:04:58] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:59] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:05:03] interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:05:06] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:07] And this is The Delphi Murders, First Person, Major Pat Cicero, Part 2.

[00:05:56] I guess, had you previously been following the Delphi case just in the news?

[00:06:01] Prior to me getting contacted?

[00:06:03] No. I mean, I knew about the case through the media.

[00:06:07] You know, we were in our jurisdiction.

[00:06:10] Obviously, we're about two hours away, drive time from Carroll County.

[00:06:18] And we were all aware of the young girls that were killed.

[00:06:22] But just like any news cycle, things moved on.

[00:06:25] Obviously, it was the news in Carroll County, Delphi for the community,

[00:06:29] which absolutely, two young, beautiful girls.

[00:06:32] But after that, you know, we had, what, five years?

[00:06:36] So seven years, whatever.

[00:06:39] So no, I didn't know anything about the case.

[00:06:41] Other than, you know, what I knew that there were certain state officers that worked it that I was aware of.

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[00:10:33] How did you come to work on the case?

[00:10:35] I received, I believe it was, an email or a call from Sergeant Jason Page, who I've worked with several times, went to training with him, asking to give a prosecutor's call.

[00:10:47] And I spoke with Mr. Jim Luttrell.

[00:10:49] Well, that's how it all started.

[00:10:51] And they wanted me to work on the bloodstream part of it.

[00:10:55] You mentioned Jim Luttrell.

[00:10:57] What kind of guy was he to work with on this?

[00:11:00] Fantastic.

[00:11:01] Very well prepared.

[00:11:02] He has a lot of knowledge about forensics and being a prosecutor.

[00:11:07] Just he was very well prepared.

[00:11:09] I felt very prepared when I testified in this matter.

[00:11:16] So, obviously, you're coming into this case years after the crime took place.

[00:11:22] What kind of materials did you have to help you evaluate and analyze what happened?

[00:11:28] I was specific about what I wanted, which consisted of evidence-related documents such as lab reports, the autopsy report, photographs, of course.

[00:11:42] You need to add diagrams.

[00:11:43] Diagrams are very helpful.

[00:11:44] But I didn't want to have anything that was, you know, as far as interviews, things of that nature, because I'm trying to base this off of a factual, objective analysis as opposed to, you know, all the other extraneous information that is not going to really affect what happened at the crime scene.

[00:12:08] At trial, I know that three Indiana State Police CSIs spoke.

[00:12:14] You mentioned Sergeant Jason Page testified as well as Dwayne Datsman and Brian Olahi.

[00:12:22] Can you speak about the work that they did that was sort of then passed on to you to sort of analyze and sort of what you made of that?

[00:12:31] Sure.

[00:12:31] The primary investigative work that I observed that they completed were photographs, and they were excellent.

[00:12:40] The officers, again, they're Indiana State troopers who have an excellent quality assurance program that they know what they're doing at a crime scene.

[00:12:54] Scales were present.

[00:12:56] Photographs were clear.

[00:12:58] It makes it a lot easier for me to do my job.

[00:13:02] Yeah, there was a—I compliment all of them.

[00:13:05] Dotsman, Olai, Langland, Page.

[00:13:08] Compliment Lieutenant Cody.

[00:13:09] He was a sergeant at the time for the scan.

[00:13:12] Another compliment for retired Sergeant Dean Marks.

[00:13:16] He was also there.

[00:13:17] There was an FBI agent.

[00:13:19] I observed his photographs, though I don't think it was anything to do with bloodstain, if I remember correctly.

[00:13:25] But FBI agent Kramer, he observed his photos as well.

[00:13:30] So collectively, it was a very well-documented case.

[00:13:36] And—but major kudos to Sergeant Page.

[00:13:40] He—his diagrams or subsequent diagrams with retired Sergeant Marks were fantastic.

[00:13:47] And Sergeant Page, again, I've—he'll probably be upset with me for saying these things because he does listen.

[00:13:57] He is top-notch.

[00:13:59] And the Indiana State Police, with all their CSIs, and I've trained with all of these gentlemen at these venues with bloodstain paralysis as well.

[00:14:07] They're just top-notch.

[00:14:09] And the Indiana State Police, I could say, sets the standard in the state of Indiana when it comes to crime scene investigations.

[00:14:17] So—but their work was excellent.

[00:14:19] It made it easy for me to do my job.

[00:14:22] And I want to make sure that they—your audience understands.

[00:14:27] It's so important that we—again, I'll talk about the piece of a pie.

[00:14:34] CSI is one aspect of it.

[00:14:37] And all these disciplines that follow the lab people, the—you know, when there's a fire and ballistics people, we have our bloodstain pattern, of course.

[00:14:49] But there's—you know, when you have all these part of the forensics and it comes together, it really provides knowledge and insight as to what occurred.

[00:14:58] It's—this is the part of the CSI effect that, you know, I can address.

[00:15:02] It seems like all those people in Hollywood have everything and they just do it all.

[00:15:09] That's not the case.

[00:15:10] Everybody has to, you know, stay in their lane and do their job.

[00:15:14] And I firmly believe that the Indiana State police officers could have done this bloodstain pattern analysis as well.

[00:15:21] They chose somebody else from outside, myself, to help with this case.

[00:15:26] And it was truly an honor.

[00:15:27] I believe you also actually went out and visited the crime scene where the bodies were discovered.

[00:15:33] Yes.

[00:15:34] What were you looking for there?

[00:15:35] I was looking for the—what's called spatial relationships primarily between where the tree was with the—what I refer to as an upside-down L.

[00:15:50] And the area between that tree and the larger tree to which Ms. German was located.

[00:15:59] And that was what I primarily wanted to see.

[00:16:04] But I also wanted to see some other things I was asked to at least consider in my testimony was visualization from across the creek.

[00:16:17] And just some other factors to look at in evaluating this crime scene.

[00:16:25] Because, again, I testified more—yeah, I testified more to other factors other than just bloodstain pattern analysis.

[00:16:36] I believe both the hearing and the actual testimony.

[00:16:40] And that—so that helped me out as well to see what the foliage was like.

[00:16:45] And even the topography of the ground was—it was interesting to see.

[00:16:50] I think the—in my personal opinion, I think the hearing was the most important of my testimonies for the court to decide whether or not they're going to—the defense is going to be utilizing a theory of their own.

[00:17:05] So that was the benefit of it.

[00:17:08] And it's always—it's important for a bloodstain pattern person or a person who's providing opinion to do as much as they can do, you know, to be as informed as possible.

[00:17:18] And, again, the idea is to seek the truth, to provide information to the court and jury.

[00:17:24] So in addition to bloodstain pattern analysis in this case, what other sort of things were you able to sort of put together for the court as you're doing this testimony as far as crime scene analysis goes?

[00:17:34] I was asked about the branches that were associated with the girls.

[00:17:42] And I provided a—my belief as to why they were present.

[00:17:49] And it was my belief—there could be other reasons, but it was my belief it was to conceal.

[00:17:57] The—I don't know if—I can't remember if it was brought out in court, but one of the questions if Ms. German was moved.

[00:18:06] And it was my belief, yes.

[00:18:11] And it was based upon the very large accumulation of blood that we call a pooling that was on the ground.

[00:18:22] And it—I'm very confident, and I believe that was in my testimony, that that was the most logical place where she basically succumbed to her fatal injuries.

[00:18:34] And then she was subsequently moved.

[00:18:36] And now that was based upon bloodstains that were observed on her right—the bottom—I'm sorry, the backside of her right leg and calf.

[00:18:47] And sometimes it was hard to see on the photographs on the court TV.

[00:18:55] But when you really zoom into the leaves between where her—where she was located and the large pooling of blood,

[00:19:03] you could see blood that was, like, transferred on the leaves as well.

[00:19:08] But there was some question about drag marks, if I recall.

[00:19:12] I mean, it wasn't that long ago.

[00:19:13] And there was multiple layers of leaves, even when I visited the scene.

[00:19:19] So you have the leaf fall, and you—I wasn't surprised that we didn't see drag marks like, you know, bare earth compared to the rest of the leaves,

[00:19:29] because basically leaves were sticking to the bottom of her leg as she was moved there.

[00:19:34] So the question, investigatively speaking, and it's something we do in Cranston Reconstruction, is why move her to begin with?

[00:19:43] It makes no sense.

[00:19:45] And the reason why is it would contrast in colors between a body which is unclothed and the surrounding environment, which would be the leaves.

[00:19:53] Because she would—she would stuck out very much so.

[00:19:57] Well, if the theory—which is valid theory—was they crossed one side of the bank and crossed the river to the other side,

[00:20:04] how visible was it on the other side of the river?

[00:20:07] And it's very visible, especially with that time of year.

[00:20:12] And so the large part of her body was hidden behind this tree.

[00:20:18] Now, the lower extremities of the body, it was an issue to which it was addressed with the large branch that was picked up and moved alongside of her legs.

[00:20:29] That was the reason.

[00:20:31] And if you looked at Ms. Williams, most of the branches were on her left side.

[00:20:37] So that was my belief when I saw that.

[00:20:40] But I believe the defense indicated in their—that they were indicating those were similar.

[00:20:45] So that was what I was trying to address.

[00:20:50] The other area which I thought was interesting was addressing predation and entomology.

[00:20:55] And I wasn't really expecting those questions, but there's a reason why there wouldn't have been entomology or predation,

[00:21:05] which is dealing with temperature and with the entomology.

[00:21:10] But predation, well, again, comparative to what I observed in Tennessee,

[00:21:15] we don't always have predation.

[00:21:16] It could be weeks before we see predation, and we've got bodies lying everywhere.

[00:21:22] The other areas that I was asked to address was if one person could have done this.

[00:21:29] And it's my belief one person could have done this.

[00:21:32] But could two people have done it?

[00:21:34] Yes, as well.

[00:21:35] I think I answered.

[00:21:36] I think that was asked of me as well.

[00:21:37] So those were the areas that was beyond just bloodstain pattern analysis, which was part of the reconstructive process.

[00:21:46] I'm curious.

[00:21:46] What are—you also were able to sort of recreate the bloodstain on the tree.

[00:21:53] Is that right?

[00:21:54] With—there was—the defense characterized it as a symbol,

[00:21:59] whereas I think you were able to show that it was much more likely a transfer stain.

[00:22:06] Is that right?

[00:22:07] Yes.

[00:22:07] That was the reason why we did testing was primarily for that tree.

[00:22:13] And the—it was interesting.

[00:22:15] We had an idea as to what the defense's hypothesis was.

[00:22:21] It was at the time they provided a manuscript of the crime scene.

[00:22:25] And I utilized that to say, okay, I see what the defense is doing.

[00:22:30] This is in the realm of possibilities.

[00:22:33] We should test.

[00:22:34] And whether the test is beneficial to the defense or the prosecution did not matter to me.

[00:22:40] So we tested it to be—to seek the truth.

[00:22:43] And again, utilized my blood.

[00:22:45] We used—we had a test subject who was of the same height.

[00:22:51] We tried to make this as accurate as possible as Ms. German.

[00:22:54] You know, some of the facts that we knew at the time was that the blood did belong to Ms. German.

[00:22:59] So the investigative question was, what caused this parent transfer on the tree,

[00:23:08] whether it was painted on deliberately into a shape,

[00:23:13] or is this possible that it was just a mere transfer stain,

[00:23:18] and what could have created that?

[00:23:21] Well, based upon its height, its shape, its size,

[00:23:24] we theorized potentially a hand could have done that.

[00:23:28] And just like painting—painting is a transfer,

[00:23:31] but it would be a deliberate transfer into a certain shape.

[00:23:34] So while we set up the standards of testing,

[00:23:39] we did a bunch of replications.

[00:23:44] And what we found was, you know, different portions of the hands.

[00:23:48] There were several areas that did not replicate that.

[00:23:51] But when we finally, test subject,

[00:23:54] instructed this person to basically hand facing the tree

[00:23:59] with the pinky finger or the blade side of the hand in an upward position,

[00:24:04] it was part of the palm, very edge of the palm,

[00:24:08] that created that, like the horizontal portion of an upside-down L.

[00:24:12] And that was replicated several times.

[00:24:15] Not the same volume, not the exact same shape,

[00:24:18] but the very similar same shape and size.

[00:24:21] And there was, in that particular vertical portion of the L, if you will,

[00:24:27] there was an accumulation of blood,

[00:24:30] which is referred to as a flow pattern.

[00:24:32] So we know that there was volume to this.

[00:24:35] Could have been a single action or a double action.

[00:24:37] But what the testing showed was that

[00:24:42] other mechanisms could have created this besides painting.

[00:24:46] What was most surprising, and I didn't expect this at the time,

[00:24:50] was as we attempted to paint,

[00:24:53] like the fence was theorizing,

[00:24:58] we noticed that it would take many, many applications

[00:25:03] to create the volume and to create the entire upside-down L.

[00:25:10] We'd have to go back to the blood source.

[00:25:12] And the only blood source volume

[00:25:15] was not the small accumulation near the tree,

[00:25:18] but would have probably been mid-subschermen.

[00:25:20] Is it possible that the assailant went back and forth and back and forth

[00:25:26] to create this?

[00:25:28] I can't say no.

[00:25:29] However, it's highly unlikely.

[00:25:31] When we can just take one voluminous amount of blood on a hand,

[00:25:36] portion of the hand, and do it just one time.

[00:25:39] It's just not likely.

[00:25:40] And the other investigative question,

[00:25:45] at least we put to ourselves,

[00:25:47] was why would anybody go back and forth

[00:25:51] when the tree that she's behind or next to,

[00:25:54] why not just put it right there?

[00:25:55] You know, it's a subjective question,

[00:25:58] but, you know, we put it all together.

[00:26:02] But the basis of crime scene reconstruction is, again,

[00:26:05] to address all potential possibilities,

[00:26:07] but what is the best explanation as to what occurred?

[00:26:11] And that's what we try to accomplish.

[00:26:13] So crime scene reconstruction,

[00:26:13] we understand that there's multiple possibilities.

[00:26:17] And it's up to the jury to decide,

[00:26:19] what do we think happened?

[00:26:20] So there is some inferences, conjecture,

[00:26:23] that's applied here.

[00:26:24] But what is reasonable?

[00:26:26] What is unreasonable?

[00:26:28] And it just didn't seem likely

[00:26:30] that the person went back and forth.

[00:26:32] Possible.

[00:26:33] But with Ms. German's blood there

[00:26:35] and accumulation of blood

[00:26:36] and the notion that she would put her hands

[00:26:39] probably onto the blood

[00:26:41] and left multiple,

[00:26:43] keep in mind,

[00:26:45] there was multiple transfer stains on this tree.

[00:26:48] Same tree.

[00:26:50] The best explanation was

[00:26:51] this probably transfer stain from Ms. German.

[00:26:54] I'm curious.

[00:26:55] We talked a little bit about the sticks.

[00:26:56] We talked about the transfer on the tree.

[00:27:01] Was this an unusual crime scene

[00:27:04] or do you see things of a nature like that

[00:27:07] in other crime scenes?

[00:27:08] Yeah, this was not unusual.

[00:27:11] This is very similar to many crime scenes I investigated.

[00:27:15] Crime scenes that all CSIs investigated

[00:27:18] are very similar.

[00:27:19] Where there's transfer stains

[00:27:20] and blood spatter pooling,

[00:27:25] especially with these types of injuries

[00:27:27] and flow patterns.

[00:27:29] So it's a very common thing

[00:27:32] to see these types of patterns within the scene.

[00:27:35] One thing that was talked about a lot at trial

[00:27:38] and ever since, I think,

[00:27:40] is the lack of detection of offender DNA at the scene

[00:27:46] as someone who has, you know,

[00:27:49] looked into many, many crime scenes over time.

[00:27:51] Is that so unusual

[00:27:53] or is that perhaps a bit more commonplace

[00:27:55] than people might expect?

[00:27:56] It's not unusual not to find evidence

[00:28:01] such as DNA.

[00:28:03] DNA is invisible.

[00:28:04] It's not, hey, I'm here.

[00:28:08] You know, I know that

[00:28:09] based upon what I know now,

[00:28:12] there was a lot of emphasis upon

[00:28:13] why there wouldn't have been

[00:28:14] touch DNA or epithelial DNA.

[00:28:17] Well, keep in mind,

[00:28:18] we don't know what the suspect was wearing.

[00:28:22] Did he have gloves on at the time

[00:28:23] in which all this transpired?

[00:28:26] So the epithelial may be heavily reduced.

[00:28:31] The lab people still have to try to find,

[00:28:33] you know, enough of the skin cells at the scene.

[00:28:38] Don't get me wrong,

[00:28:39] there's a lot of advances in epithelial

[00:28:41] or touch DNA.

[00:28:43] The DNA is the detection

[00:28:45] and basically creating a DNA profile.

[00:28:50] It's very sensitive and can be done.

[00:28:53] But I'm not surprised in an outdoor scene

[00:28:56] that they didn't find DNA standards.

[00:29:00] Yeah, you mentioned it was obviously an outdoor scene.

[00:29:03] Are there unique challenges

[00:29:04] when a crime occurs outdoors?

[00:29:06] Sure, yes.

[00:29:08] You still have to deal with conditions.

[00:29:11] Specific to this particular case,

[00:29:13] very difficult to get equipment

[00:29:17] up and down that ravine.

[00:29:20] I walked that ravine,

[00:29:21] tried to climb back up that ravine.

[00:29:23] It was very difficult.

[00:29:24] Now imagine trying to get evidence,

[00:29:27] equipment themselves,

[00:29:30] of course the decedents up and down that hill.

[00:29:34] It's very difficult.

[00:29:34] That time of year was,

[00:29:35] especially at night,

[00:29:36] it was cold.

[00:29:37] So the investigators have to deal with that.

[00:29:41] As I said,

[00:29:42] I believe they did an excellent job,

[00:29:43] especially some of the aerial photographs

[00:29:45] that utilized a ladder

[00:29:47] they had to bring in

[00:29:48] in order to get a really good topographical,

[00:29:50] downward photograph

[00:29:52] over the top of them.

[00:29:53] So yeah,

[00:29:54] very difficult.

[00:29:55] You know,

[00:29:56] we talked about some aspects

[00:29:58] of the crime scene.

[00:29:59] You know,

[00:29:59] Libby,

[00:30:00] Ms. German,

[00:30:00] is unclothed

[00:30:02] and seems to have moved around a bit

[00:30:05] based on the bloodstains.

[00:30:06] Ms. Williams is clothed,

[00:30:09] seemingly when she's killed,

[00:30:10] and not so much movement,

[00:30:12] not so much blood everywhere.

[00:30:13] Based on all that you were able to analyze

[00:30:15] on the bloodstain patterns,

[00:30:17] can you,

[00:30:18] as best you can,

[00:30:19] piece together

[00:30:19] sort of what you believe

[00:30:21] the movements of all this to be

[00:30:22] from what we can know,

[00:30:24] obviously,

[00:30:24] this aspect,

[00:30:25] so that we can never know?

[00:30:26] Yeah,

[00:30:27] that's,

[00:30:27] it's interesting.

[00:30:28] I was asked about that as well.

[00:30:30] There's,

[00:30:30] there's so many pieces of the puzzle

[00:30:32] that we don't know.

[00:30:33] You know,

[00:30:33] sometimes I compare

[00:30:34] crime scene investigations

[00:30:36] to like a 500 piece puzzle.

[00:30:40] And,

[00:30:41] but I,

[00:30:42] we don't get the opportunity

[00:30:43] to look at the box.

[00:30:45] Does that make sense?

[00:30:47] Yes,

[00:30:47] it does.

[00:30:48] I always,

[00:30:49] I cheat and use the box.

[00:30:51] There's many times

[00:30:52] I don't have the box

[00:30:53] and many of the pieces

[00:30:55] aren't there.

[00:30:56] So now I'll put it together.

[00:30:57] And that's what the public wants.

[00:30:59] And I,

[00:30:59] and I understand

[00:31:00] when,

[00:31:01] when I'm doing the,

[00:31:02] when we,

[00:31:03] I'm sorry,

[00:31:04] when we are doing the,

[00:31:05] um,

[00:31:06] reconstruction,

[00:31:09] we have to take factual data

[00:31:12] and do the best we can

[00:31:13] to put it in context

[00:31:15] to what occurred.

[00:31:16] And there are some things

[00:31:19] that are,

[00:31:19] um,

[00:31:20] we can infer

[00:31:21] that are logical,

[00:31:22] logical inferences.

[00:31:24] You know,

[00:31:24] what I compare it to

[00:31:25] in Kevin,

[00:31:27] you being an attorney,

[00:31:28] sometimes they,

[00:31:28] in closing arguments,

[00:31:30] uh,

[00:31:30] we try to explain,

[00:31:31] you know,

[00:31:32] we can infer certain things.

[00:31:33] For example,

[00:31:35] a fresh snowfall

[00:31:36] and,

[00:31:37] um,

[00:31:38] we,

[00:31:38] we see,

[00:31:39] uh,

[00:31:39] tracks in the snow,

[00:31:40] but we didn't see the animal.

[00:31:43] So how can you say animals

[00:31:44] are,

[00:31:44] can you see it?

[00:31:45] And what we can infer

[00:31:46] because the tracks are there.

[00:31:47] Same thing with rain.

[00:31:48] It must be raining outside.

[00:31:50] There's three people

[00:31:50] with umbrellas

[00:31:51] and they're wet.

[00:31:52] Well,

[00:31:52] I didn't see it rain,

[00:31:53] but they came in with umbrellas.

[00:31:55] So,

[00:31:56] we can do these inferences

[00:31:58] that are based upon logic.

[00:32:00] Okay.

[00:32:01] The objective data is

[00:32:02] we know that this gentleman,

[00:32:04] uh,

[00:32:04] gentleman,

[00:32:05] uh,

[00:32:06] was like,

[00:32:07] uh,

[00:32:08] the suspect,

[00:32:09] Mr.

[00:32:09] Allen,

[00:32:10] had,

[00:32:10] uh,

[00:32:12] met these girls.

[00:32:13] We,

[00:32:13] there's audio recording of it

[00:32:14] down the hill.

[00:32:16] Correct.

[00:32:16] And,

[00:32:16] you know,

[00:32:17] we knew that

[00:32:17] the most logical location

[00:32:19] that would have been

[00:32:20] across that river

[00:32:21] would have been very shallow

[00:32:22] at the time.

[00:32:23] looking at the photographs

[00:32:24] from there,

[00:32:25] there's,

[00:32:25] there's has to be

[00:32:26] some inferences

[00:32:27] as to what occurs.

[00:32:28] We know there's a gun

[00:32:29] in place.

[00:32:30] That's data,

[00:32:31] right?

[00:32:32] Because we have a cartridge,

[00:32:33] unspent cartridge.

[00:32:34] We know that the girls

[00:32:35] were,

[00:32:36] um,

[00:32:36] at some point undressed.

[00:32:38] Now,

[00:32:40] was,

[00:32:40] you know,

[00:32:40] the one question

[00:32:41] that I was asked

[00:32:42] was,

[00:32:43] were they both,

[00:32:44] uh,

[00:32:45] completely undressed?

[00:32:46] And I can't answer that.

[00:32:48] One,

[00:32:49] yes.

[00:32:49] The other one,

[00:32:50] at least the bottom

[00:32:52] portion of her

[00:32:53] was undressed.

[00:32:54] Uh,

[00:32:55] the,

[00:32:55] the two brassieres,

[00:32:57] the shirt,

[00:32:58] uh,

[00:32:59] could have been on her

[00:33:00] at the time.

[00:33:01] I can't say

[00:33:02] as to who

[00:33:03] may have been

[00:33:04] inflicted with injury

[00:33:05] first,

[00:33:06] but there's evidence

[00:33:07] to show as to where,

[00:33:09] uh,

[00:33:09] the girls were located

[00:33:10] when they undressed

[00:33:11] based upon the items

[00:33:12] that were located

[00:33:14] underneath,

[00:33:14] uh,

[00:33:15] Ms. Williams,

[00:33:16] such as the phone

[00:33:17] and a,

[00:33:17] I believe a shoe

[00:33:18] or a sock

[00:33:19] or something like that.

[00:33:20] So,

[00:33:21] you know,

[00:33:21] inferences can be made

[00:33:22] that they undressed

[00:33:23] there and the clothes

[00:33:25] were moved later.

[00:33:25] You know,

[00:33:26] why Ms.

[00:33:27] Ms. Williams

[00:33:28] is wearing

[00:33:28] Ms.

[00:33:29] German's clothing,

[00:33:30] I don't know.

[00:33:31] But,

[00:33:32] you know,

[00:33:32] we can make it,

[00:33:33] uh,

[00:33:34] we can make a conclusion

[00:33:35] that she's wearing

[00:33:36] the clothes,

[00:33:36] at least the top

[00:33:37] part of her clothing

[00:33:38] at the time

[00:33:38] in which,

[00:33:39] uh,

[00:33:40] uh,

[00:33:41] injury was afflicted

[00:33:41] to her.

[00:33:42] There's no blood

[00:33:43] anywhere else

[00:33:44] on the scene,

[00:33:45] uh,

[00:33:47] except for Ms.

[00:33:48] German's,

[00:33:49] uh,

[00:33:49] the locations,

[00:33:50] Ms.

[00:33:50] Ms.

[00:33:51] Williams' blood

[00:33:51] is right there,

[00:33:53] um,

[00:33:54] where she's located.

[00:33:55] So the inferences

[00:33:56] can be made

[00:33:56] that this is where

[00:33:57] she,

[00:33:57] she passed.

[00:33:58] at what time

[00:34:00] and when

[00:34:00] sequence in which

[00:34:01] Ms.

[00:34:02] German is

[00:34:02] at a different

[00:34:03] location,

[00:34:04] um,

[00:34:06] where the blood

[00:34:06] stains are observed

[00:34:07] to her final

[00:34:08] location.

[00:34:09] It's an obvious,

[00:34:11] uh,

[00:34:12] indication that,

[00:34:13] you know,

[00:34:14] something occurred

[00:34:15] from where they

[00:34:16] addressed to where

[00:34:17] Ms.

[00:34:17] German's,

[00:34:18] you know,

[00:34:18] blood,

[00:34:19] bloodshed occurred.

[00:34:20] So all these factors

[00:34:21] are,

[00:34:22] you know,

[00:34:23] brought together

[00:34:24] and analyzed

[00:34:25] and we do

[00:34:26] what's,

[00:34:26] what I do,

[00:34:27] what's called

[00:34:27] is an,

[00:34:28] uh,

[00:34:28] event analysis

[00:34:30] that,

[00:34:31] you know,

[00:34:31] shows step one,

[00:34:33] step two,

[00:34:34] step three.

[00:34:35] And,

[00:34:35] um,

[00:34:36] it's,

[00:34:36] it's a very,

[00:34:37] it's actually

[00:34:37] common sense

[00:34:38] when you actually

[00:34:39] break it down

[00:34:39] and put it together

[00:34:40] for the jury

[00:34:41] in the court.

[00:34:42] But again,

[00:34:43] there's so many

[00:34:43] things that we

[00:34:44] don't know.

[00:34:44] We can go,

[00:34:45] you know,

[00:34:45] utilize the

[00:34:46] information from

[00:34:48] the,

[00:34:48] uh,

[00:34:49] the forensic

[00:34:49] pathologist

[00:34:50] as to how long

[00:34:51] it would take

[00:34:51] somebody to pass

[00:34:52] the,

[00:34:53] the main

[00:34:54] question was

[00:34:54] who,

[00:34:55] who,

[00:34:56] who passed

[00:34:57] first?

[00:34:57] I,

[00:34:58] I don't know.

[00:34:59] You know,

[00:35:00] there's so much

[00:35:00] information we

[00:35:01] just don't know

[00:35:02] about that.

[00:35:02] Only Mr.

[00:35:03] Allen,

[00:35:04] who's been

[00:35:04] convicted,

[00:35:05] would provide

[00:35:05] that information.

[00:35:07] Yeah,

[00:35:08] I think,

[00:35:08] I mean,

[00:35:09] obviously this is

[00:35:10] highly subjective,

[00:35:10] but I think

[00:35:11] one thing that

[00:35:12] was most disturbing

[00:35:13] for me hearing

[00:35:13] your testimony

[00:35:14] and other

[00:35:15] testimonies,

[00:35:16] um,

[00:35:16] at the trial

[00:35:16] was just,

[00:35:18] like,

[00:35:18] it doesn't feel

[00:35:19] like whatever

[00:35:21] horror they

[00:35:22] sustained was

[00:35:22] brief.

[00:35:23] Um,

[00:35:24] because there's

[00:35:24] obviously the

[00:35:25] abduction component

[00:35:26] and then what

[00:35:27] happened in that

[00:35:28] sort of,

[00:35:29] um,

[00:35:30] I don't know,

[00:35:30] kind of shallow

[00:35:31] indentation where

[00:35:32] they were murdered.

[00:35:33] It just seems

[00:35:34] like it was more

[00:35:35] drawn out than I

[00:35:36] guess maybe I

[00:35:37] had anticipated

[00:35:38] in my own

[00:35:38] mind,

[00:35:39] you know,

[00:35:39] just without

[00:35:40] knowing that

[00:35:40] much beforehand.

[00:35:41] You know,

[00:35:42] I'm,

[00:35:42] I'm curious,

[00:35:43] you know,

[00:35:43] obviously with,

[00:35:44] with this case,

[00:35:45] it's a very

[00:35:46] high profile case,

[00:35:47] it's a high

[00:35:47] profile trial.

[00:35:48] Um,

[00:35:49] how do you

[00:35:50] prepare for

[00:35:51] trial and make

[00:35:51] sure you're,

[00:35:52] uh,

[00:35:52] ready to go

[00:35:53] and sort of

[00:35:53] deal with the

[00:35:54] stress of all

[00:35:55] of that?

[00:35:56] I'm not the

[00:35:57] most experienced

[00:35:58] bloodstained

[00:35:59] person.

[00:35:59] You know,

[00:35:59] I look at,

[00:36:00] again,

[00:36:01] at Tom Bevels,

[00:36:01] the Ross

[00:36:02] Gardner,

[00:36:03] Pauline Sutton,

[00:36:04] the real big

[00:36:06] experts in this,

[00:36:06] in this field.

[00:36:08] Humbly,

[00:36:08] I think,

[00:36:09] I've been doing

[00:36:09] this long enough,

[00:36:10] seen enough

[00:36:11] crime sheet

[00:36:11] photos,

[00:36:12] um,

[00:36:13] that it's,

[00:36:14] uh,

[00:36:17] it's just

[00:36:17] something that's

[00:36:18] got to get

[00:36:18] done.

[00:36:20] Um,

[00:36:22] you know,

[00:36:23] my,

[00:36:23] my sincere

[00:36:24] condolences to

[00:36:25] this family

[00:36:26] and,

[00:36:26] um,

[00:36:28] uh,

[00:36:29] you know,

[00:36:29] it was,

[00:36:29] it was a really

[00:36:31] horrific crime

[00:36:32] scene,

[00:36:32] uh,

[00:36:33] in what occurred

[00:36:34] for the girls.

[00:36:34] Um,

[00:36:35] but,

[00:36:36] um,

[00:36:37] it's just

[00:36:37] something that,

[00:36:38] you know,

[00:36:39] I don't really

[00:36:39] think about,

[00:36:40] I guess,

[00:36:40] put it to the

[00:36:41] side.

[00:36:42] Um,

[00:36:43] I,

[00:36:43] I've,

[00:36:44] again,

[00:36:44] humbly,

[00:36:44] I've testified

[00:36:45] enough that I

[00:36:47] had had my

[00:36:50] mistakes and

[00:36:50] errors and

[00:36:51] through trial

[00:36:51] and error.

[00:36:52] You just

[00:36:53] gotta get it

[00:36:54] done.

[00:36:54] Um,

[00:36:55] you put the

[00:36:56] emotion to

[00:36:56] the side

[00:36:57] and I,

[00:36:58] I cannot,

[00:36:59] I'll be lying

[00:36:59] to you if I

[00:37:00] don't have some

[00:37:01] degree of apathy

[00:37:02] or callousness

[00:37:03] to the,

[00:37:04] you know,

[00:37:05] uh,

[00:37:06] seeing these

[00:37:06] things,

[00:37:07] especially in my

[00:37:08] time at the

[00:37:08] research facility

[00:37:09] and seeing

[00:37:10] death.

[00:37:11] I,

[00:37:11] I just consider

[00:37:12] this a

[00:37:13] privilege

[00:37:14] privilege to

[00:37:15] try to provide

[00:37:15] some answers,

[00:37:17] um,

[00:37:18] as to what

[00:37:18] occurred.

[00:37:19] So I think

[00:37:20] of it like

[00:37:20] that and,

[00:37:22] um,

[00:37:23] I can't say

[00:37:24] enough,

[00:37:25] uh,

[00:37:26] my family's

[00:37:28] had to deal

[00:37:29] with maybe

[00:37:29] my idiosyncrasies

[00:37:31] and my,

[00:37:31] uh,

[00:37:32] lack of talking

[00:37:32] about things.

[00:37:33] You know,

[00:37:34] just being here

[00:37:35] just so you

[00:37:35] know is not

[00:37:36] in my

[00:37:36] comfortable spot,

[00:37:37] but I'm honored

[00:37:39] to be a part

[00:37:40] of it and,

[00:37:41] and to work

[00:37:41] with the

[00:37:42] United State

[00:37:42] Police and

[00:37:43] almost like a

[00:37:44] testament to my

[00:37:45] career as to

[00:37:46] what DM works

[00:37:47] and all the

[00:37:48] officers that

[00:37:48] I've worked

[00:37:49] with and

[00:37:50] trainers I've

[00:37:50] received is

[00:37:51] that we're

[00:37:52] going to

[00:37:52] continue on

[00:37:52] and try

[00:37:53] and provide

[00:37:53] answers,

[00:37:54] uh,

[00:37:55] to what we

[00:37:55] do.

[00:37:58] Did it take

[00:37:59] you a while

[00:38:00] to get to

[00:38:00] the point

[00:38:01] where you

[00:38:02] said you

[00:38:02] have a

[00:38:03] little bit

[00:38:03] of apathy

[00:38:04] to it all?

[00:38:05] Because

[00:38:05] certainly I

[00:38:06] remember when

[00:38:07] you were

[00:38:07] testifying both

[00:38:08] times,

[00:38:09] there was a

[00:38:09] lot of people

[00:38:10] in that

[00:38:10] courtroom crying,

[00:38:12] including,

[00:38:13] uh,

[00:38:13] one of us

[00:38:13] here.

[00:38:14] Did it take

[00:38:15] time to get

[00:38:16] to that

[00:38:16] stage?

[00:38:17] I would

[00:38:18] say yes.

[00:38:19] I'm,

[00:38:19] you know,

[00:38:19] I'm not dead

[00:38:20] inside,

[00:38:21] but yeah,

[00:38:21] I think,

[00:38:22] I think if

[00:38:23] you spoke

[00:38:23] with numerous

[00:38:25] crime scene

[00:38:25] investigators,

[00:38:26] I think we

[00:38:27] all have the

[00:38:28] very similar

[00:38:29] mindset that

[00:38:30] the job

[00:38:30] has to

[00:38:31] get done.

[00:38:32] And,

[00:38:33] uh,

[00:38:33] again,

[00:38:33] I am not

[00:38:34] the most

[00:38:34] experienced

[00:38:35] and seen

[00:38:36] at all,

[00:38:37] done at all

[00:38:37] kind of guy.

[00:38:37] There's still

[00:38:38] things that

[00:38:38] may surprise

[00:38:39] me,

[00:38:40] but the,

[00:38:40] the aspect

[00:38:42] of getting

[00:38:42] through it

[00:38:43] is just,

[00:38:44] um,

[00:38:45] I'm not

[00:38:45] numb.

[00:38:46] Um,

[00:38:47] I want to

[00:38:48] provide

[00:38:49] whatever

[00:38:49] best resources

[00:38:51] I can provide

[00:38:52] for,

[00:38:53] um,

[00:38:54] the case,

[00:38:54] which will

[00:38:55] hopefully help

[00:38:56] the family

[00:38:56] and give

[00:38:58] some answers.

[00:38:59] And it's

[00:39:00] ultimately

[00:39:00] seeking the

[00:39:01] truth and,

[00:39:02] and doing

[00:39:03] what we can

[00:39:03] for the victims

[00:39:04] here.

[00:39:05] These aren't

[00:39:05] just words,

[00:39:06] it's something

[00:39:06] we have to

[00:39:07] live by.

[00:39:07] I'm definitely

[00:39:08] not a martyr.

[00:39:09] I'm just,

[00:39:10] don't want people

[00:39:10] feeling sorry for me.

[00:39:11] This is the path

[00:39:12] I chose.

[00:39:12] There's so many

[00:39:13] of us on this

[00:39:14] same path

[00:39:14] that people

[00:39:15] don't know

[00:39:16] about.

[00:39:16] They just

[00:39:17] expect it,

[00:39:18] citizens expect

[00:39:19] it,

[00:39:19] and we should.

[00:39:20] They're taxpayers

[00:39:20] and we're

[00:39:21] going to do

[00:39:22] this for them.

[00:39:23] Yeah,

[00:39:23] it just,

[00:39:23] it just seems

[00:39:25] extraordinarily

[00:39:26] difficult work.

[00:39:27] And as you say,

[00:39:27] it is necessary

[00:39:28] to bring justice

[00:39:29] to the,

[00:39:30] uh,

[00:39:31] to the families

[00:39:31] and those left

[00:39:32] behind.

[00:39:32] And so,

[00:39:33] certainly

[00:39:33] appreciated.

[00:39:34] Yeah,

[00:39:34] I think one thing

[00:39:35] I was struck

[00:39:36] with by your

[00:39:36] testimony in

[00:39:37] particular,

[00:39:38] I mean,

[00:39:38] just there were

[00:39:38] so many horrible

[00:39:39] details like the

[00:39:41] possible tear on

[00:39:42] Libby's face

[00:39:43] and things like

[00:39:43] that.

[00:39:44] And just the

[00:39:45] way you talked

[00:39:46] about all of

[00:39:47] it was just so

[00:39:48] respectful of

[00:39:49] these girls

[00:39:50] calling them

[00:39:50] Miss Williams,

[00:39:51] Miss Sherman,

[00:39:52] things like that

[00:39:52] was just really

[00:39:53] moving and

[00:39:56] made me sad

[00:39:57] and angry given

[00:39:57] how little respect

[00:39:58] they were treated

[00:39:59] by Mr.

[00:40:00] Allen.

[00:40:01] So,

[00:40:01] um,

[00:40:02] that was,

[00:40:03] yeah,

[00:40:04] it was,

[00:40:05] it really

[00:40:06] stuck out with

[00:40:06] me as far

[00:40:07] as testimony

[00:40:07] at the trial

[00:40:08] went.

[00:40:08] So we thank

[00:40:09] you for your

[00:40:09] work and

[00:40:09] thank you for

[00:40:10] speaking with

[00:40:11] us.

[00:40:12] We really

[00:40:12] appreciate it.

[00:40:13] Yeah,

[00:40:13] my pleasure.

[00:40:14] Thank you.

[00:40:15] Can you tell

[00:40:16] us,

[00:40:16] Anya alluded

[00:40:17] to the tear.

[00:40:18] Can you tell

[00:40:18] us about that?

[00:40:19] Yeah,

[00:40:20] it was,

[00:40:20] uh,

[00:40:21] you know,

[00:40:22] something that

[00:40:23] we,

[00:40:24] uh,

[00:40:25] work with

[00:40:26] in training

[00:40:26] is,

[00:40:27] is talking

[00:40:27] about,

[00:40:28] um,

[00:40:28] dilution,

[00:40:29] dilution of

[00:40:30] blood,

[00:40:31] you know,

[00:40:31] and there's

[00:40:33] a certain

[00:40:33] appearance to

[00:40:34] it.

[00:40:34] It's lighter

[00:40:34] in color.

[00:40:35] In this case,

[00:40:36] standing from,

[00:40:37] I believe,

[00:40:38] it was the

[00:40:38] right eye

[00:40:39] down towards

[00:40:40] the ear.

[00:40:40] There was

[00:40:41] no injury

[00:40:41] to the

[00:40:42] right ear

[00:40:43] or that,

[00:40:44] that side

[00:40:44] of her face.

[00:40:45] It was a

[00:40:46] diluted

[00:40:47] blood stain.

[00:40:48] And,

[00:40:49] um,

[00:40:50] you know,

[00:40:51] of course,

[00:40:51] we make sure

[00:40:52] that we got

[00:40:52] all of our

[00:40:53] opinions,

[00:40:54] our peer

[00:40:54] reviewed.

[00:40:55] And,

[00:40:55] uh,

[00:40:56] so,

[00:40:56] you know,

[00:40:57] it was

[00:40:57] accurate that

[00:40:58] one stain

[00:40:59] that we observed

[00:41:00] around the eye

[00:41:01] appeared diluted.

[00:41:03] Well,

[00:41:03] what would cause

[00:41:04] that?

[00:41:04] Well,

[00:41:04] you have to,

[00:41:05] again,

[00:41:05] go into

[00:41:07] the realm

[00:41:07] of crime scene

[00:41:08] reconstruction.

[00:41:09] What are the

[00:41:10] potential possibilities?

[00:41:12] Rain,

[00:41:13] uh,

[00:41:13] random drop

[00:41:14] of moisture

[00:41:15] from,

[00:41:16] you know,

[00:41:16] humidity on a

[00:41:17] branch?

[00:41:18] I don't know.

[00:41:19] Um,

[00:41:19] I don't know

[00:41:20] if it was a tear,

[00:41:21] but I have seen

[00:41:22] this before.

[00:41:23] You know,

[00:41:23] we've got

[00:41:24] dilution,

[00:41:25] uh,

[00:41:25] associated with

[00:41:26] blood or on

[00:41:27] the face.

[00:41:27] And so,

[00:41:28] it,

[00:41:29] absent of rain,

[00:41:30] absent any kind

[00:41:31] of moisture,

[00:41:32] this would be

[00:41:33] what would be

[00:41:33] consistent with the

[00:41:34] tear.

[00:41:34] And it's based

[00:41:35] upon my own

[00:41:36] experiences and

[00:41:37] the observance

[00:41:38] of dilution.

[00:41:39] You know,

[00:41:39] I,

[00:41:39] I want to,

[00:41:40] it's easy to

[00:41:43] look at this

[00:41:43] case and

[00:41:45] say,

[00:41:45] this happened,

[00:41:46] this happened,

[00:41:46] this happened,

[00:41:47] this happened.

[00:41:48] And it,

[00:41:51] I think it's

[00:41:52] important to

[00:41:52] understand

[00:41:55] it's not like

[00:41:56] these girls are

[00:41:56] happy when

[00:41:58] this is all

[00:41:58] happening.

[00:41:59] You were

[00:41:59] talking about

[00:42:00] a 14 and

[00:42:00] at least 13

[00:42:01] year old

[00:42:02] girls,

[00:42:03] a gentleman,

[00:42:05] let's say

[00:42:05] gentleman again,

[00:42:06] sorry,

[00:42:07] appears by all

[00:42:08] evidence that

[00:42:08] he had a

[00:42:09] firearm with

[00:42:09] him.

[00:42:11] And,

[00:42:12] uh,

[00:42:13] we know

[00:42:14] that Miss

[00:42:14] German had

[00:42:15] injuries that

[00:42:16] she succumbed

[00:42:17] to.

[00:42:17] And when

[00:42:18] those injuries

[00:42:19] happened and

[00:42:19] if they're all

[00:42:20] injuries happen

[00:42:21] at the same

[00:42:21] time or at

[00:42:22] intervals,

[00:42:23] we don't know,

[00:42:23] but it's not

[00:42:24] like she's

[00:42:25] having a good

[00:42:26] time.

[00:42:27] And this

[00:42:29] is something

[00:42:29] that,

[00:42:30] you know,

[00:42:31] we would

[00:42:31] probably expect

[00:42:32] her to be

[00:42:33] yelling,

[00:42:34] crying,

[00:42:34] screaming at a

[00:42:36] 14 year

[00:42:36] old girl.

[00:42:37] And as a

[00:42:38] gentleman is

[00:42:38] inflicting

[00:42:39] injury,

[00:42:40] this was

[00:42:41] more likely

[00:42:41] terrifying for

[00:42:43] both girls,

[00:42:43] obviously.

[00:42:45] So the

[00:42:46] observance of

[00:42:47] what appears

[00:42:47] to be a

[00:42:48] diluted blood

[00:42:49] stain flow

[00:42:50] pattern from

[00:42:51] the one eye

[00:42:52] to the ear

[00:42:52] would be

[00:42:55] very probably

[00:42:56] common.

[00:42:57] So that's

[00:42:58] what we

[00:42:58] observed.

[00:42:59] And that's

[00:43:00] it.

[00:43:00] That's just

[00:43:00] being factual

[00:43:01] objective to

[00:43:02] what the

[00:43:03] evidence shows,

[00:43:04] not to add

[00:43:05] emotion to

[00:43:06] it,

[00:43:06] that's

[00:43:06] what we

[00:43:07] had.

[00:43:08] Absolutely.

[00:43:09] But it

[00:43:09] definitely,

[00:43:10] you know,

[00:43:10] it paints a

[00:43:11] picture of

[00:43:12] what happened

[00:43:12] to them.

[00:43:13] That's just

[00:43:13] horrifying.

[00:43:14] I was

[00:43:15] very struck

[00:43:17] simply by

[00:43:18] what a

[00:43:20] respectful,

[00:43:21] eloquent

[00:43:21] witness you

[00:43:22] were.

[00:43:23] And so

[00:43:23] I'm just

[00:43:24] another silly

[00:43:26] question.

[00:43:26] How do you

[00:43:26] do that?

[00:43:27] How are you

[00:43:28] able to go

[00:43:28] there and

[00:43:30] convey these

[00:43:31] very emotional

[00:43:32] and sometimes

[00:43:33] very complicated

[00:43:34] concepts to

[00:43:36] a jury in

[00:43:37] a way that

[00:43:38] they can

[00:43:38] grasp it

[00:43:39] so well?

[00:43:40] I think

[00:43:40] it's through

[00:43:41] the repetitive

[00:43:42] nature of

[00:43:43] what I've

[00:43:43] done over

[00:43:44] the years.

[00:43:44] You know,

[00:43:45] it's some

[00:43:45] of the

[00:43:45] training I

[00:43:46] receive,

[00:43:48] being factual,

[00:43:51] not providing

[00:43:52] anything more

[00:43:53] than to answer

[00:43:54] the questions,

[00:43:54] but do it in

[00:43:55] a way that

[00:43:56] is professional.

[00:43:57] And it's

[00:43:59] the jury

[00:44:00] that I'm

[00:44:00] talking to.

[00:44:00] The court

[00:44:01] can hear me,

[00:44:01] but it's

[00:44:02] the jury

[00:44:03] that I'm

[00:44:03] talking to

[00:44:03] and I

[00:44:04] try to

[00:44:04] make it

[00:44:05] simple.

[00:44:05] I could

[00:44:05] use big

[00:44:06] words all

[00:44:06] the time

[00:44:07] and that's

[00:44:08] not the

[00:44:09] goal that

[00:44:10] is to

[00:44:10] impress

[00:44:10] them with

[00:44:11] me.

[00:44:11] It's to

[00:44:12] try to

[00:44:12] provide the

[00:44:14] most accurate

[00:44:15] and simple

[00:44:16] explanation

[00:44:17] and the

[00:44:18] best

[00:44:19] explanation

[00:44:19] as to

[00:44:19] what

[00:44:20] occurred

[00:44:20] and just

[00:44:21] to be

[00:44:21] attentive

[00:44:22] to how

[00:44:23] I'm doing

[00:44:24] it or

[00:44:25] how any

[00:44:25] person who's

[00:44:26] testifying

[00:44:27] is doing

[00:44:27] it.

[00:44:28] It is

[00:44:29] nerve-wracking

[00:44:29] being up

[00:44:30] there.

[00:44:30] Truthfully,

[00:44:31] I didn't

[00:44:31] even see

[00:44:32] the,

[00:44:32] I'm so

[00:44:33] focused on

[00:44:34] Mr.

[00:44:35] Littrell's

[00:44:37] questions and

[00:44:38] of course the

[00:44:38] defense

[00:44:39] questions and

[00:44:40] talking to

[00:44:41] the jury

[00:44:42] that I

[00:44:43] don't even

[00:44:44] remember

[00:44:44] seeing Mr.

[00:44:45] Allen.

[00:44:46] I was so

[00:44:47] focused on

[00:44:48] doing my

[00:44:49] job and

[00:44:50] being accurate

[00:44:51] and thinking

[00:44:52] about this is

[00:44:53] what I

[00:44:54] documented,

[00:44:54] this is how

[00:44:55] I'm going

[00:44:55] to testify

[00:44:55] to it,

[00:44:56] and not

[00:44:57] to say

[00:44:58] anything

[00:44:58] different

[00:44:58] than I

[00:44:59] did,

[00:44:59] that I

[00:44:59] already

[00:45:00] spoke

[00:45:00] about,

[00:45:01] whether it

[00:45:01] be at

[00:45:01] my report

[00:45:03] or the

[00:45:03] trial or

[00:45:04] the hearing

[00:45:04] prior to

[00:45:05] the trial.

[00:45:05] So it's

[00:45:06] just a

[00:45:06] matter of

[00:45:07] getting used

[00:45:07] to it.

[00:45:08] And so

[00:45:09] many young

[00:45:09] detectives and

[00:45:10] the crime

[00:45:10] scene

[00:45:10] investigators

[00:45:11] that I

[00:45:11] work with,

[00:45:11] they're just

[00:45:13] very nervous

[00:45:14] and I

[00:45:14] understand how

[00:45:14] it's that

[00:45:15] way too.

[00:45:15] But in

[00:45:16] time,

[00:45:17] you learn

[00:45:18] this is

[00:45:19] just one

[00:45:19] part of

[00:45:20] the process

[00:45:20] and you're

[00:45:21] actually

[00:45:21] getting the

[00:45:21] opportunity

[00:45:22] to explain

[00:45:23] it to

[00:45:24] laymen,

[00:45:25] if you

[00:45:25] will,

[00:45:26] the jurors

[00:45:26] and the

[00:45:27] court

[00:45:27] sometimes.

[00:45:29] And at

[00:45:31] this point

[00:45:32] in my

[00:45:32] career,

[00:45:32] I consider

[00:45:33] more of an

[00:45:33] opportunity

[00:45:34] rather than

[00:45:35] something to be

[00:45:36] concerned about

[00:45:36] because at the

[00:45:37] end of the day,

[00:45:38] you're just

[00:45:38] telling the truth.

[00:45:39] And even

[00:45:40] though I

[00:45:40] actually want

[00:45:41] to commend

[00:45:42] the defense,

[00:45:43] I know they

[00:45:43] tried their

[00:45:44] best.

[00:45:44] Obviously,

[00:45:45] I didn't agree

[00:45:45] with some

[00:45:46] of their

[00:45:46] assertions,

[00:45:47] but as far

[00:45:48] as their

[00:45:49] officers at

[00:45:50] the court

[00:45:50] may need

[00:45:51] to be

[00:45:51] respected

[00:45:51] as such.

[00:45:52] That's why

[00:45:53] I take it

[00:45:54] making a

[00:45:55] point to

[00:45:55] shake their

[00:45:56] hands and

[00:45:57] thank them

[00:45:58] because they

[00:45:59] know what

[00:45:59] they're trying

[00:46:00] to accomplish

[00:46:01] something because

[00:46:02] that's what

[00:46:02] the system

[00:46:03] tells us.

[00:46:04] That's what

[00:46:04] the system

[00:46:05] needs to be.

[00:46:05] But at the

[00:46:06] same time,

[00:46:08] I don't think

[00:46:09] there was any

[00:46:10] kind of tricks

[00:46:11] or anything

[00:46:11] like that.

[00:46:12] They did

[00:46:12] their job.

[00:46:14] But again,

[00:46:15] I respectfully

[00:46:16] disagree with

[00:46:16] what they

[00:46:17] were trying

[00:46:17] to say.

[00:46:19] Is it

[00:46:19] nerve-wracking

[00:46:20] sometimes to

[00:46:21] face cross

[00:46:21] examination from

[00:46:22] defense attorneys?

[00:46:24] Sometimes.

[00:46:24] Sometimes,

[00:46:25] yeah.

[00:46:26] But I do

[00:46:27] believe if we

[00:46:28] sought the

[00:46:28] truth and

[00:46:29] we try to

[00:46:31] do the best

[00:46:32] we can,

[00:46:33] defense can

[00:46:33] say whatever

[00:46:35] they want to

[00:46:36] say as far

[00:46:36] as like we

[00:46:37] did a lot

[00:46:39] of times

[00:46:39] it's what

[00:46:40] we didn't

[00:46:40] do or we

[00:46:41] did a shady

[00:46:41] job.

[00:46:42] I believe

[00:46:43] the...

[00:46:44] That's right,

[00:46:45] I remember

[00:46:45] something about

[00:46:46] the cartridge

[00:46:47] casing being

[00:46:48] photographed.

[00:46:50] And I

[00:46:51] know criticisms

[00:46:52] can be made

[00:46:52] at any

[00:46:53] point of

[00:46:54] an investigator's

[00:46:55] duties,

[00:46:56] but I

[00:46:58] understand what

[00:46:59] they're trying

[00:46:59] to say,

[00:47:00] the fungibility

[00:47:01] of the

[00:47:03] cartridge.

[00:47:05] They didn't

[00:47:06] really...

[00:47:07] There wasn't

[00:47:08] an inference

[00:47:10] that they

[00:47:11] didn't do

[00:47:11] their job

[00:47:12] right,

[00:47:12] hence the

[00:47:12] evidence must

[00:47:13] be thrown

[00:47:13] out.

[00:47:14] At least

[00:47:15] that's what

[00:47:15] I took

[00:47:16] it at.

[00:47:16] I said

[00:47:17] they didn't

[00:47:17] do anything

[00:47:17] wrong,

[00:47:18] they documented

[00:47:18] it by

[00:47:19] taking

[00:47:19] photographs.

[00:47:20] Sure,

[00:47:21] ideally,

[00:47:21] taking scale

[00:47:22] photographs would

[00:47:23] be great right

[00:47:23] down there,

[00:47:24] but that's

[00:47:24] not the

[00:47:25] time to

[00:47:25] do it.

[00:47:25] That's just

[00:47:26] a photograph

[00:47:27] that it's

[00:47:27] there and

[00:47:28] then pick

[00:47:28] it up and

[00:47:29] let another

[00:47:31] expert,

[00:47:31] like a lab

[00:47:32] person,

[00:47:33] examine for

[00:47:34] fingerprints or

[00:47:34] whatever

[00:47:34] evidence,

[00:47:35] because the more

[00:47:36] we handle it,

[00:47:37] the more

[00:47:37] you could hurt

[00:47:39] other evidence.

[00:47:40] So that's

[00:47:41] the defense's

[00:47:41] role,

[00:47:42] and it

[00:47:43] has to be

[00:47:44] understood by

[00:47:44] an investigator.

[00:47:46] Looking back,

[00:47:48] is there anything

[00:47:48] that stands out

[00:47:49] to you that you

[00:47:50] think you'll

[00:47:50] sort of take

[00:47:51] away from

[00:47:51] this case

[00:47:52] or this

[00:47:52] trial?

[00:47:53] To answer

[00:47:54] that question

[00:47:55] is,

[00:47:58] we in,

[00:48:01] I find it

[00:48:02] astounding

[00:48:03] the,

[00:48:06] when I

[00:48:07] reviewed the

[00:48:08] crime scene

[00:48:09] narrative from

[00:48:11] the defense

[00:48:12] and the

[00:48:16] subjectivity

[00:48:17] and inferences

[00:48:17] and conclusions

[00:48:18] they made

[00:48:19] compared to

[00:48:20] the,

[00:48:21] what the

[00:48:24] prosecution

[00:48:24] in my role

[00:48:26] is,

[00:48:27] where I

[00:48:28] have to,

[00:48:28] I cannot

[00:48:29] do that.

[00:48:30] I can't

[00:48:33] create

[00:48:34] something

[00:48:34] that's not

[00:48:35] there or

[00:48:35] make up

[00:48:36] a story

[00:48:37] because it

[00:48:38] fits

[00:48:38] their

[00:48:39] narrative.

[00:48:40] Everything

[00:48:41] has to be

[00:48:41] factual and

[00:48:42] based upon

[00:48:44] what is,

[00:48:45] even though I

[00:48:46] identify multiple

[00:48:46] possibilities,

[00:48:48] it has to be a

[00:48:49] reasonable

[00:48:49] possibility.

[00:48:50] You know,

[00:48:51] to make an

[00:48:51] assertion,

[00:48:52] like for example,

[00:48:53] that the

[00:48:53] suspects dressed

[00:48:55] the person

[00:48:55] afterwards,

[00:48:56] to fit their

[00:48:57] narrative that

[00:48:58] there's multiple

[00:48:58] people involved.

[00:49:01] What's,

[00:49:01] based on what?

[00:49:03] You know,

[00:49:04] based on what,

[00:49:05] because you

[00:49:05] didn't take the

[00:49:05] time to analyze

[00:49:06] the evidence

[00:49:07] like I did.

[00:49:08] So that,

[00:49:09] that stands out

[00:49:10] to me.

[00:49:11] I,

[00:49:11] I've,

[00:49:12] I've told

[00:49:13] when I was in

[00:49:14] charge of our

[00:49:15] detective bureau,

[00:49:16] but to this day

[00:49:17] during my

[00:49:17] teachings,

[00:49:19] the forensic

[00:49:19] academy,

[00:49:19] when I'm

[00:49:20] teaching blood

[00:49:20] stain pattern

[00:49:21] analysis,

[00:49:21] I keep telling

[00:49:22] the investigators,

[00:49:23] if you question

[00:49:25] if you should

[00:49:25] do something,

[00:49:26] do it.

[00:49:27] Because I

[00:49:28] assure you,

[00:49:29] the attorneys,

[00:49:30] the defense

[00:49:30] attorney especially,

[00:49:31] is going to

[00:49:31] question why you

[00:49:32] didn't do

[00:49:32] something.

[00:49:34] That's where

[00:49:34] they get you.

[00:49:35] And so,

[00:49:37] and of course

[00:49:38] everything within

[00:49:39] reason here.

[00:49:40] But,

[00:49:40] you know,

[00:49:41] if you think

[00:49:41] that you should,

[00:49:42] I don't think

[00:49:43] I'm going to

[00:49:43] diagram something,

[00:49:44] for example,

[00:49:45] just to throw

[00:49:45] something out

[00:49:46] there.

[00:49:47] yeah,

[00:49:48] diagram it.

[00:49:49] Because that

[00:49:51] should be

[00:49:51] something that's

[00:49:52] part of your

[00:49:53] job,

[00:49:54] for example.

[00:49:54] Don't let,

[00:49:55] don't let that

[00:49:55] be an argument

[00:49:56] later on.

[00:49:57] You know,

[00:49:58] so that stood

[00:49:59] out to having

[00:50:00] a manuscript

[00:50:02] because you

[00:50:03] don't see

[00:50:03] that.

[00:50:04] Maybe because

[00:50:05] of high profile

[00:50:05] case that was

[00:50:07] provided.

[00:50:08] So that stood

[00:50:09] out and it

[00:50:10] actually assisted

[00:50:11] in my role as

[00:50:12] to answering

[00:50:13] questions,

[00:50:14] hence the reason

[00:50:15] why we did

[00:50:15] some forensic

[00:50:16] testing.

[00:50:20] It's ironic

[00:50:21] that a defense

[00:50:22] memorandum

[00:50:22] ended up

[00:50:23] helping you

[00:50:24] with your

[00:50:25] testimony,

[00:50:25] which ultimately

[00:50:26] helped secure

[00:50:27] the conviction

[00:50:28] of Mr.

[00:50:28] Allen.

[00:50:30] Just to

[00:50:31] make my own

[00:50:31] comment.

[00:50:32] It did.

[00:50:33] I mean,

[00:50:34] it focused

[00:50:34] our attention

[00:50:35] as to,

[00:50:35] you know,

[00:50:37] things to

[00:50:37] look at.

[00:50:38] But again,

[00:50:39] I will not

[00:50:40] criticize or

[00:50:42] talk poorly

[00:50:44] of the defense

[00:50:44] attorneys.

[00:50:45] I think they

[00:50:45] did what they

[00:50:46] had to do

[00:50:46] to try to

[00:50:47] exonerate Mr.

[00:50:48] Allen.

[00:50:49] That's part

[00:50:50] of what the

[00:50:50] system requires.

[00:50:52] I'm curious,

[00:50:53] how often do

[00:50:54] you do the

[00:50:55] kind of work

[00:50:55] you did on

[00:50:56] Delphi in

[00:50:57] other cases?

[00:50:58] In many

[00:50:59] instances,

[00:51:00] you know,

[00:51:00] doing the

[00:51:01] testing and

[00:51:03] visiting the

[00:51:03] scene.

[00:51:05] A lot of

[00:51:06] times,

[00:51:06] the visiting

[00:51:06] scene is

[00:51:07] not,

[00:51:07] we're not

[00:51:08] able to do

[00:51:08] that.

[00:51:09] But the

[00:51:10] testing is

[00:51:10] not always

[00:51:11] required.

[00:51:12] And we're

[00:51:13] talking about

[00:51:13] bloodstain

[00:51:13] pattern analysis.

[00:51:14] again,

[00:51:15] it is a

[00:51:16] discipline

[00:51:17] that knows

[00:51:21] that blood

[00:51:21] is a fluid

[00:51:22] and it

[00:51:22] adheres to

[00:51:23] our physical

[00:51:24] loss.

[00:51:24] And under

[00:51:26] similar

[00:51:26] circumstances,

[00:51:27] conditions,

[00:51:28] and force,

[00:51:28] it will behave

[00:51:29] the same time

[00:51:30] and time

[00:51:30] again.

[00:51:31] And so I

[00:51:31] compare,

[00:51:32] I call this

[00:51:33] a comparative

[00:51:33] science in

[00:51:34] a sense.

[00:51:35] Whereas,

[00:51:36] you know,

[00:51:37] with fingerprint

[00:51:37] identification,

[00:51:38] you get exact

[00:51:39] matches.

[00:51:40] We compare

[00:51:41] scenes and

[00:51:42] blood in

[00:51:43] the scenes

[00:51:44] to, you

[00:51:45] know,

[00:51:45] instances that

[00:51:45] may have

[00:51:46] occurred.

[00:51:46] But we

[00:51:46] have to

[00:51:47] utilize the

[00:51:47] context of

[00:51:48] the scene

[00:51:48] to make

[00:51:49] determinations.

[00:51:50] Is there

[00:51:51] anything we

[00:51:51] didn't ask

[00:51:52] you about that

[00:51:53] you wanted

[00:51:53] to mention

[00:51:54] or think

[00:51:54] it's important

[00:51:54] to stress?

[00:51:55] I just,

[00:51:56] again,

[00:51:57] want to

[00:51:57] thank you

[00:51:58] guys.

[00:51:59] It was a

[00:52:00] sincere honor

[00:52:01] to be a

[00:52:01] part of

[00:52:02] this.

[00:52:02] I can't

[00:52:03] say enough

[00:52:03] about my

[00:52:05] mentors and

[00:52:06] people I

[00:52:07] work with,

[00:52:08] Dr.

[00:52:08] Neal Haskell,

[00:52:09] Sergeant

[00:52:09] Marks,

[00:52:10] retired

[00:52:10] Sergeant

[00:52:11] Marks,

[00:52:11] Jason Page,

[00:52:12] all the

[00:52:13] investigators

[00:52:14] associated

[00:52:14] with this.

[00:52:15] I thought

[00:52:15] they did

[00:52:16] an excellent

[00:52:16] job.

[00:52:17] It's just

[00:52:19] one of

[00:52:19] those things

[00:52:19] I'm proud

[00:52:20] to be a

[00:52:21] part of

[00:52:21] this whole

[00:52:22] process.

[00:52:23] As I'm

[00:52:24] coming to

[00:52:26] near the

[00:52:27] end of my

[00:52:27] career,

[00:52:28] which,

[00:52:29] you know,

[00:52:29] I'm still

[00:52:30] in the

[00:52:30] midst of

[00:52:31] doing things.

[00:52:32] I have

[00:52:32] trials still

[00:52:33] coming up.

[00:52:33] I'm hoping

[00:52:34] that the

[00:52:35] next generation

[00:52:36] has the

[00:52:38] same

[00:52:38] opportunities

[00:52:38] that I've

[00:52:40] had and

[00:52:40] will continue

[00:52:41] on with

[00:52:42] the

[00:52:42] crime scene

[00:52:42] reconstruction

[00:52:43] and

[00:52:43] all the

[00:52:44] other

[00:52:44] forensic

[00:52:45] disciplines.

[00:52:46] Yeah.

[00:52:47] So thank

[00:52:48] you for

[00:52:48] allowing me

[00:52:49] to provide

[00:52:50] some insight.

[00:52:51] Thank you so

[00:52:52] much.

[00:52:52] It's been

[00:52:52] amazing.

[00:52:53] Yeah,

[00:52:53] absolutely.

[00:52:54] It's been

[00:52:54] fascinating.

[00:52:55] Thank you.

[00:52:58] Thanks very

[00:52:59] much to

[00:52:59] Major Cicero

[00:53:00] for taking

[00:53:00] the time

[00:53:01] to talk

[00:53:01] to us.

[00:53:01] We so

[00:53:02] appreciate

[00:53:02] the care

[00:53:03] he takes

[00:53:03] in doing

[00:53:04] this important

[00:53:04] work.

[00:53:05] Thanks so

[00:53:06] much for

[00:53:06] listening to

[00:53:07] the Murder

[00:53:07] Sheet.

[00:53:08] If you

[00:53:08] have a

[00:53:09] tip

[00:53:09] concerning

[00:53:09] one

[00:53:10] of the

[00:53:10] cases

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[00:53:11] please email

[00:53:12] us at

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[00:53:18] information about

[00:53:19] an unsolved

[00:53:20] crime,

[00:53:21] please report

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[00:53:45] We very much

[00:53:46] appreciate any

[00:53:47] support.

[00:53:49] Special thanks

[00:53:50] to Kevin Tyler

[00:53:51] Greenlee,

[00:53:51] who composed

[00:53:52] the music

[00:53:53] for The Murder

[00:53:53] Sheet,

[00:53:54] and who

[00:53:55] you can

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[00:53:56] at

[00:53:56] kevintg.com.

[00:53:59] If you're

[00:53:59] looking to

[00:54:00] talk with

[00:54:00] other listeners

[00:54:01] about a

[00:54:02] case we've

[00:54:02] covered,

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[00:54:03] join the

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[00:54:04] discussion

[00:54:05] group on

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[00:54:06] We mostly

[00:54:07] focus our

[00:54:08] time on

[00:54:08] research and

[00:54:09] reporting,

[00:54:10] so we're

[00:54:10] not on

[00:54:11] social media

[00:54:11] much.

[00:54:12] We do

[00:54:13] try to

[00:54:13] check our

[00:54:14] email

[00:54:14] account,

[00:54:15] but we

[00:54:15] ask for

[00:54:16] patience,

[00:54:16] as we

[00:54:17] often receive

[00:54:18] a lot

[00:54:18] of

[00:54:18] messages.

[00:54:19] Thanks

[00:54:19] again for

[00:54:20] listening.

[00:54:22] Can we

[00:54:22] talk a

[00:54:23] little bit

[00:54:23] before we

[00:54:23] go about

[00:54:24] Quince,

[00:54:25] a great

[00:54:26] new sponsor

[00:54:27] for us?

[00:54:28] I think in

[00:54:29] one of the

[00:54:29] ads that we've

[00:54:30] already done

[00:54:30] for them,

[00:54:31] we talked

[00:54:31] about the

[00:54:32] compliments

[00:54:32] I'm getting

[00:54:33] on my

[00:54:34] jacket.

[00:54:35] I know

[00:54:36] you're a

[00:54:36] very modest

[00:54:37] woman,

[00:54:37] but can we

[00:54:37] talk about

[00:54:38] the compliments

[00:54:38] you're getting

[00:54:39] on the

[00:54:39] Quince

[00:54:40] products you

[00:54:40] wear?

[00:54:41] Yeah,

[00:54:41] I've got

[00:54:42] two of

[00:54:42] their

[00:54:42] Mongolian

[00:54:43] cashmere

[00:54:43] sweaters.

[00:54:44] They're

[00:54:44] a brand

[00:54:44] that just

[00:54:45] does this

[00:54:45] sort of

[00:54:46] luxurious

[00:54:47] products,

[00:54:48] but without

[00:54:49] the crazy

[00:54:49] costs really

[00:54:50] well.

[00:54:51] They give

[00:54:52] you Italian

[00:54:53] leather

[00:54:54] handbags,

[00:54:55] they do

[00:54:56] European

[00:54:56] linen

[00:54:57] sheets.

[00:54:58] You have

[00:54:58] a really

[00:54:58] cool suede

[00:54:59] jacket,

[00:55:00] and I

[00:55:01] really like

[00:55:01] the way

[00:55:02] I look

[00:55:02] in my

[00:55:02] sweaters,

[00:55:03] I like

[00:55:03] the way

[00:55:03] you look

[00:55:04] in your

[00:55:04] bomber

[00:55:05] jacket,

[00:55:05] it looks

[00:55:05] super

[00:55:06] cool.

[00:55:06] You've

[00:55:06] gotten a

[00:55:07] lot of

[00:55:07] compliments

[00:55:07] when you

[00:55:08] go out

[00:55:08] wearing

[00:55:08] these

[00:55:08] sweaters.

[00:55:09] I think

[00:55:09] I have,

[00:55:10] yeah.

[00:55:11] And deservedly

[00:55:11] so.

[00:55:12] Also,

[00:55:12] I'm one of

[00:55:13] those people,

[00:55:13] my skin

[00:55:14] is very

[00:55:14] sensitive,

[00:55:16] so when

[00:55:17] it comes

[00:55:18] to wearing

[00:55:18] sweaters,

[00:55:19] sometimes

[00:55:20] something's

[00:55:21] too scratchy,

[00:55:21] it really

[00:55:22] bothers me.

[00:55:23] These are

[00:55:23] so soft,

[00:55:24] they're just

[00:55:25] very delicate

[00:55:26] and soft,

[00:55:26] and wearing

[00:55:28] them is

[00:55:28] lovely because

[00:55:29] they're super

[00:55:29] comfortable.

[00:55:31] It's not one

[00:55:31] of those things

[00:55:32] where you buy

[00:55:33] it and it

[00:55:33] looks great,

[00:55:33] but it doesn't

[00:55:34] feel that

[00:55:34] great.

[00:55:35] They look

[00:55:35] great,

[00:55:35] they feel

[00:55:36] great.

[00:55:36] But yeah,

[00:55:37] I really

[00:55:37] love them.

[00:55:38] And you

[00:55:38] got your

[00:55:39] cool jacket.

[00:55:40] I mean,

[00:55:40] that's a

[00:55:40] little bit

[00:55:40] of a,

[00:55:41] you're the

[00:55:42] guy who

[00:55:42] wears the

[00:55:43] same thing

[00:55:43] all the

[00:55:43] time,

[00:55:43] so this

[00:55:44] was a

[00:55:44] bit of

[00:55:44] a gamble

[00:55:45] for you,

[00:55:46] a bit

[00:55:46] of a risk.

[00:55:46] You got

[00:55:46] something a

[00:55:47] bit different.

[00:55:47] I do

[00:55:48] wash my

[00:55:48] clothes.

[00:55:49] I know

[00:55:49] you wash

[00:55:49] your clothes,

[00:55:50] but I

[00:55:50] mean,

[00:55:52] you're

[00:55:52] filthy.

[00:55:53] You just

[00:55:53] made me

[00:55:53] sound awful.

[00:55:54] So no,

[00:55:55] I wash

[00:55:55] my

[00:55:55] clothes.

[00:55:56] But you

[00:55:56] don't

[00:55:57] really

[00:55:58] experiment

[00:55:58] with fashion

[00:55:59] that much is

[00:56:00] what I'm

[00:56:00] saying.

[00:56:01] So this

[00:56:01] is a

[00:56:01] little bit

[00:56:01] out of

[00:56:01] the norm

[00:56:02] for you,

[00:56:02] but I

[00:56:02] think you

[00:56:03] really like

[00:56:03] it and

[00:56:03] it looks

[00:56:04] good.

[00:56:04] Thank you.

[00:56:05] Great

[00:56:06] products,

[00:56:06] incredible

[00:56:06] prices.

[00:56:07] Absolutely.

[00:56:08] Quince.com.

[00:56:09] There you

[00:56:10] go.

[00:56:10] So you

[00:56:11] can go

[00:56:11] to

[00:56:11] quince.com

[00:56:12] slash

[00:56:13] msheet.

[00:56:13] And right

[00:56:14] now they're

[00:56:14] offering

[00:56:15] 365 day

[00:56:16] returns

[00:56:16] plus free

[00:56:17] shipping on

[00:56:18] your order.

[00:56:18] So it's

[00:56:18] quince.com

[00:56:19] slash

[00:56:20] msheet.

[00:56:21] That's

[00:56:21] q-u-i-n-c-e

[00:56:23] dot com

[00:56:24] slash

[00:56:24] m-s-h-e-e-t.

[00:56:27] Before we wrap

[00:56:28] up this episode,

[00:56:29] can we take

[00:56:30] just a moment

[00:56:31] to say a

[00:56:31] few more

[00:56:32] words about

[00:56:33] our great

[00:56:33] new sponsor

[00:56:34] Acorns?

[00:56:34] Yeah,

[00:56:35] thanks so

[00:56:35] much to

[00:56:35] Acorns.

[00:56:36] Remember when

[00:56:36] you support

[00:56:37] our sponsors,

[00:56:37] you're supporting

[00:56:38] us and

[00:56:39] our sponsors

[00:56:40] make it

[00:56:40] possible for

[00:56:41] us to do

[00:56:41] this job.

[00:56:42] So we

[00:56:42] really

[00:56:42] appreciate

[00:56:43] them.

[00:56:43] We love

[00:56:43] our sponsors.

[00:56:44] Absolutely.

[00:56:45] Acorns is a

[00:56:45] terrific

[00:56:46] investing app.

[00:56:47] It's the

[00:56:47] perfect thing

[00:56:48] for somebody

[00:56:48] who wants

[00:56:49] to get

[00:56:50] started

[00:56:50] with their

[00:56:51] personal

[00:56:52] finance

[00:56:52] journey.

[00:56:53] That can

[00:56:53] seem

[00:56:53] daunting.

[00:56:54] It is

[00:56:55] daunting.

[00:56:55] I'm so

[00:56:56] not

[00:56:56] financially

[00:56:57] minded.

[00:56:58] For me,

[00:56:58] it's always

[00:56:59] really hard

[00:56:59] to get

[00:57:00] started

[00:57:00] with

[00:57:00] something

[00:57:00] like

[00:57:01] this

[00:57:01] where

[00:57:01] you're

[00:57:01] like,

[00:57:02] what am

[00:57:02] I

[00:57:02] doing?

[00:57:02] But

[00:57:03] Acorns

[00:57:03] sort of

[00:57:04] takes

[00:57:04] the

[00:57:05] guesswork

[00:57:05] out

[00:57:06] of

[00:57:06] that.

[00:57:30] money

[00:57:32] and

[00:57:32] So if

[00:57:33] you're

[00:57:33] it's a

[00:57:35] great fit

[00:57:35] for people

[00:57:36] who are

[00:57:37] starting out

[00:57:37] but they

[00:57:38] want to

[00:57:38] take the

[00:57:39] next step

[00:57:39] and improve

[00:57:40] themselves

[00:57:40] financially

[00:57:41] and make

[00:57:42] their money

[00:57:42] work for

[00:57:43] them more.

[00:57:44] So if

[00:57:44] you're

[00:57:44] interested,

[00:57:45] head to

[00:57:45] acorns.com

[00:57:46] slash

[00:57:46] msheet or

[00:57:47] download the

[00:57:47] Acorns app

[00:57:48] to start

[00:57:48] saving and

[00:57:49] investing for

[00:57:50] your future

[00:57:50] today.

[00:57:51] Paid

[00:57:51] non-client

[00:57:51] endorsement,

[00:57:52] compensation

[00:57:52] provides

[00:57:53] incentive to

[00:57:53] positively

[00:57:54] promote

[00:58:03] Before we

[00:58:04] go,

[00:58:04] we just

[00:58:05] wanted to

[00:58:05] say another

[00:58:05] few words

[00:58:06] about

[00:58:07] VIA.

[00:58:08] This is

[00:58:08] really a

[00:58:09] wonderful

[00:58:09] product.

[00:58:10] I think

[00:58:10] it's

[00:58:10] really

[00:58:10] helped

[00:58:10] both

[00:58:11] of

[00:58:11] us

[00:58:11] get

[00:58:11] a

[00:58:11] lot

[00:58:11] better

[00:58:12] rest.

[00:58:12] VIA

[00:58:13] is

[00:58:13] pretty

[00:58:13] much

[00:58:13] the

[00:58:14] only

[00:58:15] lifestyle

[00:58:15] hemp

[00:58:16] brand

[00:58:16] out there.

[00:58:17] So what

[00:58:17] does that

[00:58:17] mean?

[00:58:18] It means

[00:58:18] that they're

[00:58:18] all about

[00:58:19] crafting

[00:58:19] different

[00:58:20] products

[00:58:20] to elicit

[00:58:21] different

[00:58:21] moods.

[00:58:22] Kevin

[00:58:22] and I

[00:58:23] really

[00:58:23] like

[00:58:23] their

[00:58:23] non-THC

[00:58:25] CBD

[00:58:25] products.

[00:58:26] Specifically

[00:58:27] Zen

[00:58:27] really

[00:58:28] helps

[00:58:28] me

[00:58:29] fall

[00:58:29] asleep.

[00:58:30] Some

[00:58:30] Zen

[00:58:30] can

[00:58:30] really

[00:58:31] help

[00:58:31] me

[00:58:31] get

[00:58:32] more

[00:58:32] into

[00:58:32] that

[00:58:32] state

[00:58:33] where

[00:58:33] I

[00:59:23] about us. Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it

[00:59:29] really helps us out.