The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Nine: Crime Scene Analysis

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls. So today is, what day is it? Monday, October 28th, 2024. And it was the, I believe it was the ninth day of the Delphi Murders trial in Delphi, Indiana. Of course, this is Richard Allen, who was accused of murdering Delphi teenagers, Liberty German and Abigail Williams back in 2017.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And he is, he's on trial for four counts of murder related to those two killings. And today we heard from two experts, one who we've never heard from before and another who we heard from in the pre-trial phase of this whole saga. But we're going to talk about it today.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_03]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Delphi Murders, Richard Allen on Trial, Day Nine, Crime Scene Analysis.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, before we get started, we just wanted to take a moment to thank our latest murder sheet lifesaver, a lovely woman named Beth Nielsen.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, this is very difficult to do, even under the best of circumstances. And our murder sheet lifesavers get out there and stand in line so that we don't have to stand in line all night.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And so we can sound a little bit less crazy and perhaps a little bit more logical and intelligent, in theory, when we do the show. If you're interested in helping, send us an email.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much to Beth and to Ed.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: She really helped us out a lot. And she was a very, very nice woman.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: As all murder sheet people are.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. That's obviously given when we're talking about the murder sheet people. Lovely people, very smart people. And we really appreciate her and appreciate all of you for listening.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I want to say something else before we get too far into it. There were two witnesses today and then there was something interesting that happened after the second witness.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. So before we get to the second witness, I think we should do another content warning because the second witness is a tough witness.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was difficult to hear and it may be difficult for you to hear about, but we will give you a warning before we get to that witness.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe even before we get to that witness, we can tell you what happened after that witness.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I'm just going to be honest. It was genuinely like in some ways like worse than other stuff I've seen.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I would certainly.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. I don't know why. Maybe it just hit me in a day. I don't know. You know, but we'll talk about it then.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But we will give you warning before we get to that material.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first witness up today, unless it was any pre, you know, pre stuff.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, one more thing.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I always I'm not trying to be funny. For some reason, I really struggle to say this name correctly.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think actually not not being funny, but you when you start saying a word a certain way, it's hard for you to pivot.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that fair to say? I think it's hard for everyone to pivot, but I think it's really hard for you to pivot.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And so the man who presented the witnesses today was this assistant prosecutor, James Luttrell.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's it. Luttrell. Yeah.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And he's he's a very I find him to be I mean, I like his style. It's kind of low key.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a kind of quiet. But I thought I don't know the word. It's it's it's like he gets meticulous in a way.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I like I like that. I like the way he kind of he seems to be the guy handling all the sort of technology and complicated stuff for the state.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, all the science stuff and also some of the more some of the emotional stuff as he did today.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he doesn't really he'd say he just lets the witness speak to that almost.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think he's a guy who's for whatever reason is OK with being in the background and letting the witness take center stage.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And those occasions when he does take center stage for a minute, he can have kind of a dry sense of humor.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_03]: At one point today, there was a talk about, oh, are things taking too long?

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, well, I'll take this next witness. I'll do it expeditiously.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I think he disappeared for a while to go get like copies of something.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So everyone's like literally I think we were just waiting for Littrell in and you get kind of like, OK, let's go.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so then, yeah, I agree. It does seem to have a dry sense of humor.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of interesting to get to know all the different attorneys styles and sort of contrast and see where they're they're doing well, maybe where they're struggling.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, just kind of look at that.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So I may try to avoid saying his last name today and just call him the prosecutor.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God. That's rough.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was like, maybe you should just call him James, but that feels too familiar.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think maybe that's better.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like mispronouncing people's names, obviously, given my first name.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So that might be best.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's I think you got it right.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's Littrell.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Littrell.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think we're bantering a little bit here because we're reluctant to get started, because when we get started, we're going to eventually have to get to this testimony at the end.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but let's get started.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So first witness up today was Stacey.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of names, I'm going to mispronounce Stacey Boschinovsky.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Stacey Boschinovsky.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: She works in the biology section at the lab.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So there are a lot of different sections at these ISP labs.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We already heard from Melissa Oberg, who worked at the same lab, but she was in the forensic firearms department.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, there's just there's different specialties.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: There's different opportunities for people to kind of do this work that's important to forensics, but might have a completely different component.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we kind of got into Miss Boschinovsky's resume and things like that and, you know, her degrees in science and biology.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And as Anya mentioned, Miss Boschinovsky works at the Indiana State Police Lab.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And she said that lab is accredited.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And the accreditation process helps ensure the quality of the techniques they use and therefore the results they use.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And she was a very good witness.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: She obviously knows this stuff forwards and backwards.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: She's so she was very meticulous, too.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: She was very precise and would, you know, maybe over explain, but in a way that did contribute to everyone's understanding.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought she seemed a little bit nervous, but in a relatable way, not in like a bad way.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought she seemed like she just seemed like she cared a lot and wanted to really get it right.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought she was a very good witness.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I liked any time somebody asked her a question, she'd pause for just a second as she was thinking and then she'd choose her words very, very carefully.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And one thing I took away from this witness is the sheer amount of effort.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: This this team doing the DNA of the lab, they really, really tried very hard and they tried everything they could.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And let me just before we get into DNA, let me just kind of throw something out there.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Just some research that I was doing on this because I was just curious.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like we all know DNA is a huge deal in crime now and crime solving.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I tried kind of to figure out like how many cases are cracked by DNA, how many cases even use DNA.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was only able to find one really unsatisfying number online that like I want to contextualize.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But the number I saw was like 10 percent of cases.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like basically even like might have DNA like that that's usable in the sense that it could be.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Impact the outcome, I guess.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And weirdly enough, that was actually from the Innocence Project's website.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The reason the Innocence Project wants people to know about how DNA is in everything is because that people basically only using DNA to clear crimes or, you know, bring about exonerations would mean that a lot of people that might be innocent and currently incarcerated would not be exonerated because there's no DNA evidence.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But in fact, if like witness testimony falls apart or other things happen, you can still get to an exoneration.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're trying to raise the word as well.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not it's not just like, you know, what people.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, like the 10 percent number when I'm looking at, first of all, I'm sure that includes firearm homicides, which is a different deal than someone using a sharp edged weapon.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So there'd be like less opportunity for DNA.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: In addition, it seems like that number comes from the latest, maybe like 2003.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So it may have gone up since.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But on their website, it says attackers quote attackers leave behind DNA evidence in less than 10 percent of murders.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So even if it has gone up since and even if we're taking into account firearms, I think this is a pretty good indication that not all homicides leave.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Usable DNA.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's unreasonable to expect that.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet people do.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I see this all over all over the web, all over discussion of this case.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: People absolutely expect it.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is what we call the CSI effect.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: That means people watch a lot of shows where DNA becomes important.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just assume, you know, we hear about it so often.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, you know, we hear about remarkable situations where like the, you know, the perpetrator spits out a wad of gum on the floor and suddenly the case is solved after 30 years.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And we think how wonderful.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this little mistake by the killer foiled him and we can go forward.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But that does not mean that every scene is the same and that every scene will produce results.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: A couple of other things we should realize is that outdoor scenes in particular pose a challenge because not all not all surfaces are going to be good for getting offender DNA.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And and there's other elements of the Delphi murders in particular that kind of made it so that offender DNA was going to be a long shot.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about those. But I just wanted to preface that because I'm with the people who who are affected by the CSI effect.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I always assume, you know, I'm the one who throws out like, what about DNA?

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Can they do investigative genetic genealogy?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So like I'm I'm I'm often kind of like influenced by that, too.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's important to take a step back sometimes and remember that there are there are a lot of cases where that's just not going to be.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: A factor, unfortunately, as much as we want it to be.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And we can't expect it to be because that not only harms prosecutions of potentially very guilty people, but it also harms the the you know, the fate of people who could be wrongfully incarcerated and deserve an exoneration.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But maybe there's no DNA evidence clearing them.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's talk about the DNA tests and such that they did do.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_03]: As we've mentioned some earlier episodes, these last couple of weeks, they did do the Indiana sexual assault kits for each girl.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_03]: This involves vaginal swabs, anal swabs, oral swabs and such of that nature.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_03]: There was no semen found.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_03]: A vaginal cervical swab did indicate possible semen, but there was no male DNA present.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And that they didn't do a confirmatory test because that would risk destroying some material, which might help get a DNA profile somewhere down the road.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, apparently, she said, oftentimes you get these indications of possible semen and it doesn't mean anything.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It turns out to be nothing.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So serology.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So she does DNA analysis and serology and their serology is the detection and study of bodily fluids.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And then DNA analysis is obviously procuring DNA and then analyzing it to see if you can get a profile.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So those are similar, but ultimately sometimes different because sometimes by detecting the bodily fluids, you could end up destroying samples of DNA.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So one thing that became very clear over time was that because Miss Bozhenovsky was dealing with such limited samples and, you know, precious samples, this was not going to be something where she was just going to be willy nilly trying to throw everything at it.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: She was being strategic by limiting what she was doing to emphasizing the procurement of a offender DNA profile.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, and, and that, that meant in certain cases, not analyzing, you know, looking for like what, what would be present, whether it's semen or whatnot.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, another thing that should, should be noted is that Miss Bozhenovsky testified that early on this was being couched as like, we're looking at this as like, there very well could have been a sexual assault because of the nature of the crime.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Two young girls out in the woods abducted, one of them left nude.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, at the very least, it has the hallmarks of a possibly sexually motivated crime.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Now it could be a sexually motivated crime and not lead to a sexual assault, but, um, that they were, they were very concerned about doing that.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So, um, one thing that perked up a lot of years in the courtroom, uh, Ms. Bozhenovsky indicated that these tests came back with results for mostly no male DNA.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And by that she means that some male DNA did show up in some, uh, external genital swabs.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, uh, one set of fingernails from each, I believe had some male, uh, DNA in it.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that your recollection?

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That was my recollection.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I know Abby, like myself, was a nail biter.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they had more trouble with hers, but I think they ended up getting it from both.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But there was not enough male DNA to test, to create a profile.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And she indicated that this male DNA might not even belong to the killer.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It was such a small amount that she said, uh, it could have been picked up in fingernails just in the course of ordinary life.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And the, uh, DNA, male DNA that was on the external genitals could have come from their clothes.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_03]: There was a very, very tiny, infinitesimal, uh, amount.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is something I think we also garnered from the pathologist is my understanding.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, there were no signs of sexual assault.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't always mean that there was no sexual assault.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just that there can't, we can't, there wasn't semen or something like that.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And with the male DNA and the external genital swabs, I think that definitely, um, definitely, like, concerned a lot of people in the audience.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You can kind of see the audience reaction to things.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But what, what Ms. Boshinovsky said was basically that this could be just from being in, like, the same household with, like, a male.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it really, it doesn't, it was so minuscule.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like through, through laundry, through clothes.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it just, it does not indicate sexual contact necessarily.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, um, it, because it was just so tiny in amounts.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not really something to read into as much as, as you might think.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, she talked a little bit about the procedure that I wanted to go up in terms of the process that her lab follows in terms of DNA analysis.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: One is extraction.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And that involves adding chemicals to a, to a possible sample to break open cells and, like, release the DNA.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Two, um, quantification.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, that, that seems to be, like, um, trying to determine, like, how much they have almost.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that what you wrote?

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, almost, like, see if they have some DNA.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, amplification, which is, like, using PCR, which is some sort of technique to really multiply copies of DNA.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, sorry about that.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry about that, everybody.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We, um, we, we had to take a moment to step away from recording to, um, go deal with the situation with the line.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, we have wonderful, wonderful line sitters, or lifesavers, as we like to call them, um, who've been helping us kind of get in every day, essentially, without completely losing our minds.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And as we were sitting here recording, uh, Anya was talking, uh, about DNA.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And I get a notification from someone saying...

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: A wonderful person who really helped us out here.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: There's already, like, 20 people in line, even though it's like, what, it was like 8 or 7.30 the night before.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Aspen.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, I, I pushed the stop button and said, Anya, we gotta do something.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think we did something, and we'll see if it was successful, but...

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was, it was successful, and we have a wonderful line, line, line saver there now.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like...

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So then we came back here...

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the thing.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the thing about this whole situation.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, every time you think you've figured it out, and you're gonna do it, and you're just gonna figure, this is the way we're doing it.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it just twists around like a crazy snake, and then suddenly you're dealing with it from a whole other angle.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, um, that's just kind of what we're doing.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So, that, that's, that's to explain why this transition is really inelegant.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I was talking about, I think, STR.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a process where it's, you know, basically, like, looking at multiplying DNA, and, I don't know.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, basically, this, this, uh, this expert went on to define some things.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, genes, she defined as small non-coding segments of DNA.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: A locus is a specific location of a gene on a DNA strand, I believe.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, DNA in general is highly variable amongst individuals.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We all have unique DNA profiles.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Talked about single source, um, terminology used to, uh, express DNA profile.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then there, she's also talked about, like, there can be a mix of DNA profiles.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So, it's like two people get hurt, and there's blood recovered from the scene.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It could theoretically be from either the victim or a mixture of both victims, or in theory, even a mixture of the, uh, both the victims and their assailant.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And, but in some cases, there's so little information that you can't tell.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that the main source is a victim, but then there might be a minor source that's like, you can't even, you can't even determine how many people contributed to it because it's so vague.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And you, you may remember, I'm sure you do, that in the mini opening statement way back at the beginning of this process, it feels like months ago, uh, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin mentioned something about hair being found in the hand of, uh, victim Abigail Williams.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the implication a lot of people took from that was that might've been hair grabbed from, uh, her killer.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that was artfully phrased, frankly.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, we, we learned more about that today.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, the expert referred to it as fibrous material from the hand and arm of Abigail Williams.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So apparently when they tested it originally seven, some years ago, they saw pretty quickly that it was a female hair and that it did not belong to either Abigail Williams or Liberty German, but it had some characteristics that were similar to Liberty Germans.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And so they concluded that it was, uh, familial.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And I believe they also, uh, as part of that process, they, uh, analyzed some DNA they took from Derek German, who of course is, uh, Libby's father.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So they, I mean, I guess I understand what the defense was trying to do here.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and Kevin, if you can, if you, if you disagree, let me know, or if you agree, let me know also.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it seems like the defense was sort of saying, Hey, it's sloppy to kind of come in and not know who this is right now.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, yeah, that, I mean, that, that seems fair, but, but it sounds like they did know that it was a close family member related to both Libby and Derek, which pretty much narrows it to, um, Libby's very close female relatives.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, I don't know.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it seems like they wouldn't be really spending a lot of time on resources on that unless they were, because like I.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Their attitude was.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, there's no suspect who is a female member of the German family.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So we don't need to go any further.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you agree with that.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you don't.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you know, it's like me, like, I agree with the idea that like female DNA at a scene could be important.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Look at the long Island serial killer case.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The, um, suspect in that, uh, Rex Heuerman, his wife, her hair was found at the scene and they use that to identify him.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like a woman could not even be involved directly, but her female, you know, her hair could indicate something.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, in, in this situation, it seemed like they just kind of did the normal thing.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hair, which is very, very easy to spread around.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of her very close family members.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's put our time and resources, which are limited into something else.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I, I guess I understand that too.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, they did do testing recently and they did confirm that the hair that was found on Abby was indeed, uh, the hair of Kelsey.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Did they say that explicitly?

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: They did.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: They said that in court today.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So that mystery solved.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish the defense had not done what they did.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: If what year I'm, I, if I were them, I would be worried that the jury basically like heard this incredible fact and like, oh my gosh, she was clutching this unknown hair.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And because that's how they made it sound.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and then I, if I were on a jury, I'd be feeling like, wait, you really overstated that just to make a point.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and then it feels like backtracking to be like, oh, but actually we were just trying to say they were sloppy.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, but you were kind of acting like it was something more than that.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it just kind of seems like.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And as a reminder, uh, when Abby was found, she was wearing a sweatshirt that belonged to Libby.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And they had been in the wash with some other clothes belonging to the family.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And she'd also just recently ridden in a car driven by Kelsey German.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So there were a number of very logical and, uh, easy to understand ways how that hair could have gotten on her.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about some other reports that, um, Ms. Boshinovsky did.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, this was a report from, I believe it was, um, there was, was there one from like March 7th, 2017?

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the first one.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how much detail we need to go into here, frankly, because she went through a long list of different things she tested.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, things like, uh, a black bra, uh, shoes, sweatshirts, underwear.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And weren't the results from all of those basically the same?

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That they, they didn't get anything?

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_03]: That they didn't get anything.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I, was the seventh, was the seventh when they were doing all like the, uh, kind of, frankly, sexual assault kit stuff where they were kind of taking swabs from intimate parts of the girls' bodies?

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And then.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was in the initial report.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that from February of 2017?

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just trying to lock this down so we put out the information correctly.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then March 7th was when they went into more detail on the, like the clothing and things like that.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So there were kind of, I guess what we're trying to convey is there were several levels of this where there were like multiple reports being done as they're going through from going over the body specifically to going over, um, you know, kind of getting broader and broader in terms of what they're actually looking at.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So, which makes sense because obviously if you have, you know, something in a murder case where you have semen on a body, then that's going to tie someone more closely.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas if you have like a hair on a shoe, that could have been picked up elsewhere.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So you want to focus on what might actually be more relevant first.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I, uh, they talked about, you know, quote, this was a thing we heard about a lot, you know, just generally insufficient.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So they would find something and then there would be insufficient amount of DNA to test.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: That could be from hair.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It could be from other types of DNA.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_03]: But there was a time when they thought they had something.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, they, they took a swab, uh, I believe from, uh, uh, the black sweatshirt.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_03]: If my memory is correct.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: My understanding is that that is true.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And they found what, they found enough male DNA in there to get a profile.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And so they thought they had a profile of the potential killer and they even put that DNA information into CODIS.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And what happened next, Anya?

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, eventually it went into an employee database and it was identified as somebody who, from my understanding, from what Ms. Boshinovsky testified to,

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: was in fact a lab personnel person.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So somebody working at the lab.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So it had inadvertently contaminated a sample.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And how that exactly happened was frustratingly vague.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: That was one part of testimony where I was kind of like, why can't we learn when and how exactly that happened?

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I feel like the jury wanted to know about that too.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But it sounds like there was some, you know, because Ms. Boshinovsky was the only person actually really handling anything in terms of examining things.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it wasn't like this was a team effort where you have like three people pouring over the DNA.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she's the supposed to be.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, but she also noted there's a lot of evidence clerks.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of people who kind of pass things through.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's opportunities for things to go wrong.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I don't know.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess like I would have liked to, I would have personally really liked to have that cleared up on some level.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Just so.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was actually kind of surprised the defense didn't push that harder.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's, that's in the future.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: That's in the future.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: There was some talk at some point, I believe, Ms. Boshinovsky sent 72 hairs to the FBI.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Again, they didn't find much, but they indicated a willingness that they would be willing to compare those hairs, like under a microscope, I guess, with other people's hairs.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is my understanding.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to, I want to look that up on my phone to see if that's actually true.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that that is kind of debunked.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, people don't really do that anymore.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: The microscopic comparison of hairs.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Certainly that was the implication that the witness gave under cross-examination on that topic when it came up.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_03]: If you could have had just a little bit.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: She said, oh yeah, I believe the lab used to do that, but not in my career there.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it sounds like, okay, so what, so, okay.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like what the consensus is, or at least what she alluded to is, this is possibly an okay thing to do if you're just using it as an investigative tool.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But you can't identify anything.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So what this ended up doing for these 72 hairs was that you can, like basically the FBI ended up thinking that all but three of the hairs had, were linked to Abby and Libby themselves.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Just through Microscrap.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But they can't, they can't know that for sure, but that's what they said it looked like.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: For those three extra hairs then, you know, that's where you wonder, could that be the perpetrator?

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Could that be something totally unrelated?

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Could that be something unrelated?

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's unknown.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no, you know, like with a lot of these hairs, there was either no root, meaning no skin associated.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you pull out your hair, there's like a little root at the end that kind of, you can get DNA from.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But when they're rootless hair, that's not as easy.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of developing technology where they're trying to do that and it's possible in some cases, but it's all very complicated.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, in addition to that, sometimes there is a root and it's still not enough.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I learned today is Boshinovsky said that when you're shedding hair, the root kind of shrinks and degrades quickly.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So naturally shed hair is like terrible for that kind of DNA.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Hair that gets yanked out is different.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That's better.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, you can't pick and choose what you're going to get at a crime scene, obviously.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Then there was kind of a fun moment where the prosecutor kind of goes up to the table.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Luttrell.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Luttrell.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say his name.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: In front of the witness and he just kind of drops his hand on the table.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Thump.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And then lifts it again and he says, okay, so did I just leave some DNA on the table?

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was great.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think we've all heard about touch DNA and the implication is that every time we touch something, we're leaving behind all of this DNA.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And the witness explained it's not really that simple.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's really not.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many factors apparently that can go into this.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And like some people might be more likely to leave it in certain temperatures or certain times or like, you know, how many skin cells you happen to leave at that moment.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's all very variable.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So basically what she said when he thumped his hand on the table, it was maybe, maybe not.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, you can't just know.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess as somebody who, again, has probably been affected by the CSI effect, I often think like if I go into a room and, you know, maybe I touch the wall or I touch the table, I'm like, you know, I'm leaving DNA everywhere.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I did something, I'd get busted immediately because I guess that's how I think.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, that's not necessarily the case.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, it was just interesting to learn about some of this stuff because I think I tended to have more of a feeling about DNA that was like it's abundant everywhere.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's falling from the sky.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it should be easy to do.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's it's more it's more of a crapshoot depending on the specifics of the case.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And as we're going to learn, there was a lot about Delphi and the murders of Abby and Libby that really was not conducive to getting good DNA of any kind.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And that came up in another question pertaining to touch DNA.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: The prosecutor.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Latrell.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: He said to the witness something to the effect of would you expect to see touch DNA on Abby and Libby if the killer touched them on their neck or shoulder?

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And the witness said there was there was so much blood.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: She said trying to detect a touch sample in that overwhelming amount of blood is just about impossible.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_03]: At that point, Jennifer Auger, I remember the defense team objected and said, you know, that's speculation.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Those facts are not in the record.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And Prosecutor Latrell said, I'm just being just a hypothetical.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So it makes me wonder.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was sustained.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: No, that was not.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That was overruled.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He got to keep that.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It makes me wonder if one of these confessions we're going to hear about later in this week might include a detail of the killer touching.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Abby or Libby on the neck or shoulder.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting speculation.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, one thing, you know, I'm going to go into that with a stupid analogy in a moment.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But because it helped me think about it.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But another thing we saw Boshinovsky do is at one point she was actually holding up the bullet.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: The spent.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Not the bullet.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The cartridge that was found at the scene.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a discussion of, like, she got that first before the forensics people so she could look at it in terms of DNA.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And what she indicated, like, is that unusual?

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the killer would have been putting that in his gun.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, why no touch DNA?

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And what she said is that it's a very, very small surface area.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is not conducive to what they would be looking for.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You know.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to get a bunch of touch DNA.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, touch DNA is not the best kind of DNA.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, because there might be innocuous reasons for someone's touch DNA to be somewhere in many instances.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But second of all, there's also the fact that, you know, it really just depends on how many skin cells you happen to get on whatever surface that, you know, and is the surface something that then could be swabbed easily to get it.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's just a lot of factors that go into that.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But she talked about the competitive nature of DNA.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So what Kevin was talking about there, it's like, you know, I used to, when I was a kid, I would swim competitively.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And there would be, you know, like, you might be in a heat of swimmers.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was this one girl who was, like, super good named Rachel.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: If she was in your heat, you were not going to win that heat.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: She was going to win.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: No matter, like, you might shoot for second, but you're not going to beat her because she was really good.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like certain types of DNA are like that.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So blood is like that.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a big mess of blood and then someone touched, you know, the skin of the victim underneath that, the blood is going to win.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: The blood of the victim is going to be very loud in the results.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's very likely that it will essentially drown out any, you know, the other weaker type of DNA.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like you're not going to get it all necessarily unless somebody happened to leave a ton of skin cells.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, this is all variable depending on the circumstance.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's something to keep in mind.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that there was so much blood, the fact that the crime scene was very bloody, the bodies were very bloody, it made it ultimately so.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It was harder to, I think, detect any offender DNA.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's another problem with the scene.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember what that was?

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: What was that?

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: The dirt.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: The dirt.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The dirt caused a lot of problems.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The clothing was dirty.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And this also kind of does say something about, like, how this crime unfolded.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Because people have been like, how did he get them down a hill, across a creek, up a bank?

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: All of that's kind of a lot.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, it sounds like they were covered in dirt.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: The clothing was covered in dirt.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that basically was something that was, I believe she referred to it as almost like inhibiting some of the readings.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that kind of the way she described it?

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the way I understood it.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of blocking it, kind of getting in the way.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And so those two things were especially problematic when it came to this scene.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like we're at the very least, like, I mean, on the one hand, like, none of this is good for the prosecution where you have, like, no DNA.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But on the other hand, like, it was important for the prosecution.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought it was done ably by Mr. Luttrell.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: To basically kind of get that all the way and be like, here's how much we tried to get DNA.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe here's some reasons why we didn't get any DNA of a male offender.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of DNA, obviously, of Abby and Libby and different things like that.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, can I just say something that, like, it makes sense.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Weren't there comments from law enforcement that confused everybody for years alluding to DNA?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_03]: This is what they were referring to?

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: They thought they had it, but they didn't.

[00:38:26] Yeah.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They thought they had it, but it was a lab tech or whoever.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know the person's position, but somebody associated with the lab, a personnel member.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And they thought they were going to do something with that.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And then eventually it got corrected and then back to square one.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So that was the end of direct examination.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And before CROSS began, there was a break.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I believe right before the break.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It was such a tough day.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And you'll find out more about that a little bit later.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we're obligated to mention every light moment.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03]: What did the judge do right before, right at the break?

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, she admonished the public in kind of an amusing way.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have my note open to that page because we're kind of flying by.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But she essentially said something to the effect of,

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't conduct court in your bedroom, but don't come.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So don't sleep in my courtroom.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So don't sleep in my courtroom.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_03]: She said she'd seen some people sleeping.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And you said it would not be dignified for us to mention the name of a person we saw with their eyes closed.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can't know if that person was actually sleeping.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I will say this.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It's who you think it is.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And even with reserved seats, you know, sometimes you just got to nap.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of those things where, I mean, in fairness to a lot of the people, though, some people have been waiting in line for a long time.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So I can see.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, she's the judge.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I could see her being concerned of, like, I don't want the jury to see people dozing off because maybe it will make them pay less attention.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I can kind of see all sides there.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Before we get into the cross, the cross examinations today were done by Jennifer Auger from the defense.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And we were still critical last week of a cross examination done for the defense by Brad Rosey that I really feel it's worth mentioning that in both of Jennifer Auger's cross examinations, they were tight.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03]: They were focused.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And they had a map that you could follow and understand the points she was making or trying to make.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So even if you didn't necessarily agree with her points, you could understand what they were.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, with Rosie's cross exam last week of the ballistics expert, you know, I've been following this case.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm an attorney.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I had trouble trying to figure out what his points were.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So that was a real step up with Auger's cross exams.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, his last cross exam.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And he should be good at that because he's supposed to be the bulldog.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, I mean, she was far better, I thought.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it was just like, okay, I mean, I get what she's saying.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: She's making tight points and, like, let's go from there as opposed to, like, let's spend half a day, you know, just yelling.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, I don't even know what.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, it's almost like he was improv-ing.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he was, but this was much better.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It just felt like it was going somewhere.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to want to go where it's going, but it's going somewhere.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So she began her cross-examination by talking about how DNA technology is always advancing.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And Jay mentioned there's some new types of analysis, snip analysis, which can be, in theory, used to extract DNA from shafts of hair without roots.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And so this perhaps could be used for the three hairs that the FBI was unable to identify.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And the witness kept on saying, well, this is a very new technology.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's only being used by, like, one lab, and it's proprietary of nature, so it's not really available.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And so on and so forth.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But OJ kept on saying it should really, really be used in this case.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this defense definitely always pushes pretty hard on witnesses when they aren't answering exactly how they want them to.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But it sort of seemed like what Boshinovsky was saying was, like, that's not something that would really help here.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not even an option at this stage of the game.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And plus it would destroy the hairs in question.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So if technology improved later, you couldn't test.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And then RJ said, well, the FBI said they could do microscopic exams of the hair.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And that wouldn't destroy the hairs.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And the witness, as we mentioned earlier, suggested that that's not really a good way.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_00]: That is, yeah, that is not a credible way.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an investigative tool.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you shouldn't do it at all.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, you can't do it with the mind of solving a crime because it's not going to give you something that's –

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and she said that's not for identification.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That is just for comparison.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, at one point was – am I just tired?

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: At one point was OJ yelling of, like, Richard Allen is on trial now.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a little bit overdramatic.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, she's, you know, making the point that, like, all the stops should be pulled out because a man's on trial.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like – I understand what she's saying, but it also seems like some of the stops she wanted to pull out would, you know, possibly be unscientific or, you know, bad to do.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think Boshinovsky was very, you know, very much pushing back on stuff, kind of acknowledging certain things, but also, like, saying, like, that wouldn't really be a good fit.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That I think at one point, you know, Luttrell kind of, like, gets animated, I feel like, when people are pushing around as witnesses a bit.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So at one point he was, like, you know, basically, like, let her finish because, like, that's been something I've seen from OJ and Rosie.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if they say yes or no, like, they really, like, yes or no.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, sometimes when you're dealing with an expert, you kind of need something a little more nuanced.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yes, but – and so that was an instance where Gull sustained it and allowed her to finish.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_03]: She also was very upset that more testing wasn't done on the female hair found on Abby earlier.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_03]: The witness was saying, you know, the suspects were male.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_03]: There was no female suspects, but OJ was saying, well, we don't know for sure if the perpetrator was male or female.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe Bridge Guy was a woman, I guess.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Or maybe she also indicated that multiple people could have been involved in the murders, one of whom, I guess, could be a woman.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I get – I got where she was going with that.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe – like, I kind of rolled my eyes at the Bridge Gal concept, to be honest.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think maybe a more powerful way to say it – not to Monday Morning Quarterback, but, I mean, like, let's be honest.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what this is.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think bringing it back to the fact that hairs are transitory and if somebody's girlfriend's hair ends up at a scene and that doesn't make any sense,

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: well, you can tie the boyfriend then to it.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying, like, women can't be involved in horrific, brutal crimes, but OJ's kind of, frankly, like, over-the-top, you know, shock at the idea that they were looking at a male offender

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: when a male is caught on camera abducting the girls seemed a little bit ridiculous.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, like, I'm not saying a woman can't be involved in something like this.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It just felt like – I think she could have handled that as, like, more as, like,

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: any investigative lead should be followed, so why not focus more on the women?

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that could lead you somewhere.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I think they're just trying to continue this idea of, like, some, like, massive group of people was involved in this.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And presumably if they're having the girls in their version be abducted, taken away, maybe a woman can be involved in that.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And it just – I think they're thinking a little bit too big.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the defense as a whole could benefit from thinking a bit smaller and just more of, like, attacking the state's case

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to, like, trying to build this whole other universe and, you know, I don't know.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about that?

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And the witness indicated she has examined hundreds of items in this case, including items recovered from Richard Allen's home.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And she could find no DNA connection between Richard Allen and these murders.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And then OJ asked the question, can you obtain DNA from spit?

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And the answer was yes.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And I assume that's a reference to Elvis Fields.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Elvis Fields, yeah.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I mean –

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Remind us who Elvis Fields is.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Elvis Fields is one of the people that the defense accused of doing the murders.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: They alleged that he's part of an Odinist cult, even though, frankly, there's not really much concrete evidence that he even is an Odinist.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And he made some bizarre comment to Indiana State Police detective, you know, at the time, Kevin Murphy, saying, like,

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: if my spit were on the bodies, you know, but I had a good reason, would that be okay?

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, obviously that's pretty disturbing.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But when you find out the context that he had just given them a saliva sample

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and also that he may have had some pretty severe mental impairments, I guess,

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_00]: then perhaps it takes on a slightly different context.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, certainly interesting, certainly something to look into.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the defense – I think the fact – I think their performance at the three-day so-called mini-trial

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_00]: where they put on the Odinism stuff, personally, I was not impressed.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't really see it coming back in unless somebody opens a pretty massive door.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to think in terms of that portion.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I thought Boschinovsky held her own even though, you know, I think Auger was definitely

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: turning up the pressure at points.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing that people were curious about, like, there were cuttings taking – there were,

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, Richard Allen's blue coat, his blue car heart jacket, no DNA.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The car, cuttings from his car, no DNA, no DNA anywhere.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think – and let me just look because I pulled up an article about this.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there was one case – because I was like, well, you know, if he's covered in blood

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's in his car, couldn't that last for a number of years?

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But there was the murder of – I think it was Jeff Gurman, a reporter in Las Vegas.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I read in some local news articles was, bizarrely enough, even though they caught

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the guy pretty quickly, Robert Tellis, there was no blood found in his vehicle.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just curious.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that surprises me because you would think if someone was splattered with – or, you know,

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: completely covered in it or, like, dripping with it.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess – I don't know.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would think you wouldn't even be able to clean that away.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess if someone has a bunch of blankets in their car, you can envision it being possible

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to, like, wrap yourself in a way.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm just speculating here.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just more interesting to think about, like, I would be curious from actual forensic

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: examiners how common that is.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, how do people get around that?

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it possible to clean it away?

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it just possible to kind of manipulate the situation in a way so you're not just

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_00]: tracking it in in the first place?

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't know the answers to that.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But it poses some interesting questions.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Those are excellent questions.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_03]: There is at least one moment I wanted to spotlight from the redirect examination.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is Jennifer J. had suggested there were other things that the witness could have

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: done to test DNA in this case.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And she said, I feel like I have exhausted the resources of the lab on this case.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, she is saying she feels she did everything she possibly could with the

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_03]: massive resources of the Indiana State Police.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It really sounded like she did.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I fell for her.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It seemed like she put a lot of work into this.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00]: At one point, it almost sounded like OJ was gloating.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you've worked so hard on it.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_00]: You have nothing.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, you know, I mean, I imagine that's frustrating.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, ultimately, it's not their job to pull something from thin air if there is

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: nothing.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And it seemed like they were, with the amount of blood, with the fact that some of the

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_00]: items were in the water, with the fact that everything was covered in dirt, you know,

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it would have been a tall order to get DNA, I think.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even in a case where people often say, well, people cut themselves stabbing and

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_00]: slashing others with sharp edged objects.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, they do.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's going to be usable DNA from it if it's all mixed

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_00]: up.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just not always going to work out that way.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes people almost want there to be DNA because it removes uncertainty of

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_00]: any kind.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And it also is like, it's comforting to think that, like, that'll tell us everything that

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_00]: happened.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just, I just don't think that's, from what I was reading, that just doesn't

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately seem like it's the case most of the time.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to talk about juror questions?

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So juror questions were interesting.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: In one case, they wanted to know about the quality control necessary in testing reagents.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this talked about some of the chemical processes of how, you know, what solutions they're

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_00]: adding to the samples in order to, you know, fulfill certain functions.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that kind of what they're referring to?

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And they talked about how they prepared it in the lab and they go through like specific

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_00]: steps and it's all very complicated and exact.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to know, I guess, you know, do they do repetitive testing to validate results?

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's something that, you know, can be part of some sort of scientific method.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it not really?

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But when they're going through their validating processes and tests, they will test multiple

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_03]: samples then as kind of a way to do, to verify things.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes sense you wouldn't do that because, I mean, there's limited sample.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you like keep repeating something with a hair, then when the hair is gone, the

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_00]: evidence is gone.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to give this question about is it shimmerous?

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's chimera.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I think Judge Gold pronounced it as shimmer.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He said she said shimmer, which I thought it was, too.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But then Boshinovsky was a chimera.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oof.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_03]: What was the question?

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do you account for chimeras?

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Which I guess are people who like.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Might have different DNA profiles for different fluids.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that it?

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking this up.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not talking about this.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the question where I was like, wait, what's going on now?

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_00]: God.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I've never heard of this in my life.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I'm looking up PCR to make sure I didn't define that wrong because I'm just I'm haunted

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_00]: by that and I'm worried I did.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm good.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So chimera DNA.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Um.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess there can be an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: of DNA.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What?

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're all learning now.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Jurors are teaching us.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This jury is on the ball.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like bringing up things and no one knows what's going on.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, Boshinovsky was like, great question.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And she was impressed.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: She was impressed that somebody knew what that was.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And she I think she said something to the effect of like, sometimes they run into that

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: issue with donors, people who receive blood like as a donation, because then there might

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_00]: be the transfusions and whatnot.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And they basically they just have to kind of roll with it.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And if they know that that's might be a factor, then they can be aware of it.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't really sound like there's any way to like deal with that in advance.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Um.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: While you look up PCR, our talk about another one, the juror questions.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I think this one may indicate that someone there may have been concerned about the contamination

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_03]: issue.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_03]: The question was, are your storage refrigerators in the lab always locked, even though they

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_03]: are, in fact, in a locked lab?

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And the answer was not necessarily because they have the attitude that the lab itself is a secured

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_03]: area.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it sounds like they were a bit.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like the juror questions reflected concern about the contamination issue, which I would

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_00]: have probably hit harder if I was OJ.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the last question from a juror was, what is PCR?

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And Anya is about to explain that to us in some detail.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think I said PCR was when you duplicate.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like DNA and like amplify it.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and I'm right.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That's shocking.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, let me read through.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This is from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension out of Minnesota.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, OK, so it's quantitation.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the standards of all DNA laboratories, basically you assess the quality and quantity

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_00]: of DNA, measure it, assess it.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, amplification is accomplished through the use of polymarase chain reaction or PCR.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That's when millions of copies of a specific sequence of DNA could be made in a few hours.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It involves electricity.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And OK, so that I was actually not totally wrong.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I'm, I'm shocked by that.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So we are going to talk in some detail about the second witness, but I know we're probably

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_03]: going to lose some of you before then.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't want you to miss something that happened at the end.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to jump ahead, discuss what happened at the end.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll say goodbye to some of you.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And then we'll hop back and discuss this witness.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, after the second witness stopped, after his testimony ended, there was, uh, uh, a conference

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: with the attorneys and Judge Gull.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And I believe after that conference, Jennifer OJ came and she, uh, spoke with Kathy Allen.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And this was like two feet in front of us.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, OJ said to Kathy Allen, uh, I'm going to need you to testify like we talked about,

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_03]: which is interesting.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And so what it was about was, uh, McClellan said, uh, apparently in one of the interviews

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_03]: with police, uh, Richard Allen gave his, uh, Google account and.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Say the name, say the name of it.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it, uh, food Jack zero?

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that what it is?

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Something like that.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Food Jack.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_03]: He, he gives, he gave that name and, uh, McClellan has gotten, uh, Google to authenticate that.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And he wanted, McClellan wants to enter into the record Richard Allen's Google search history.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: What is that?

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: What is what?

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder what's in there.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what's in there, but if he wants to enter it in nothing good.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_03]: If McClellan wants to enter it, we can presume that it's for a reason, namely that it would

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_03]: help his case against Richard Allen.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And we can say that the defense very much does not want to have it in, which also seems to

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_03]: indicate whatever is in this man's search history does not make Richard Allen look good.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Can I just say like he's from Delphi, he's living in Delphi.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If he's just looking up facts on the case, I feel like that makes him no different than

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_00]: many people in the town who were not involved in the murders.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I, if it's just that, then that doesn't seem like a big deal.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's something worse than that, then yeah.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I would, I would assume if he was just looking up facts about the case, who cares?

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That, I, I almost imagine it would have to be worse than that because that just doesn't

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: seem like even like, you know, cause again, like people, people are interested in this

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: also it's his town.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, you'd want to know more about it.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I, I don't know.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I've, I wonder, I wonder what it is.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so then Jennifer OJ says, uh, she cites a case, Watson versus state.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And she claims that that case says that in order to enter in this search history, the state

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_03]: needs to show that, uh, only Richard Allen and no one else, but Richard Allen had access

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_03]: to the account.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, McClellan said, well, I, I, I think that's not what it says.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just saying that it would be reasonable for the state to assume only one

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: person would have access to it.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And OJ then said, well, Kathy Allen will testify about access to the account.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess presumably Kathy Allen might suggest that if there's incriminating searches, they

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_03]: were made by her or.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, or I guess at least if all they need to do is show that two people had access to

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it, she could just say, I also had access to it.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We both have a Facebook account that we share for work.

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You and I do.

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You and I do.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So that would be a situation where if, you know, something were to happen, we could say,

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: well, Anya and Kevin have it.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But there's also.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But if there was something problematic about it, it would probably be you.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I, I plan all my, uh, serial related heists.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And, but then the other thing is if there's, if there's, um, I guess like there's also

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: been situations where I've had to access your email or you've had to access my email for

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: different like things that we were doing, but that wouldn't mean that you always have

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: my email.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you wanted to log into my email now, you'd probably have to be like, wait,

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: what's your new password?

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And like there would, there'd have to be some kind of specific thing going on there.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You wouldn't have ready access, nor would I have to you, even if I, even if we could

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: do some password guessing.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, yeah, it's interesting.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, I wonder what she'll say.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if she'll go as far as saying I did whatever was done on that account or just,

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I, I had access.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It'd be very interesting.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: If she takes the stand, uh, the cross-examination would probably be, uh, quite interesting.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be, I'd be curious about how far she goes.

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So that was how things ended.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to repeat what we said at the top of the show.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, this next witness happens to be Patrick Cicero.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Major Patrick Cicero of the LaPorte County Sheriff's Office.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And he testified in some detail about, uh, the circumstances of the deaths of these two

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: girls.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe you listen to us discuss the testimony he gave at the three-day hearing over the summer.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And if so, you know what you'd be in for.

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So what we're about to discuss is, uh, we're going to be as delicate as we can and not linger

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: too long on some gruesome details, but it's, it's an unpleasant subject matter.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you think that might bother you, drop out.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no shame in it.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's awful.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I wasn't expecting this today.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why.

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: One of our friends who we saw at the courthouse, Thomas Frost, I remember told, he was like,

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I saw Pat Cicero in the, you know, elevator.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh God.

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And I see a lot of people in court, uh, there was a break in the middle of his testimony.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people left because it was, it was too much.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It was awful.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It was awful.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't blame him for leaving.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: For some reason it hit me harder.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It hit me pretty hard today.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Like just, it's just, I mean, and like, God, I just, I don't know how these families that

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: are, I mean, I don't know how they're like, I mean, I just, they're very, very strong people.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: This is, to see these images.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this stuff I'm seeing that I'm never going to get out of my head, no matter

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: how, how much I want to forget.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and this, these were their babies, you know, like this, like this never, um, you

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: know, I just, I feel so bad for them.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I feel so bad for these girls and learning more about how they died.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just always very upsetting.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Pat Cicero, expert on blood spatter.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_03]: They ran through his, uh, frankly, very impressive, uh, resume.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: He also is, uh, he's a sheriff, a major with the, uh, LaPorte County Sheriff's Department.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He works with the body farm people down in Tennessee.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, very qualified man.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, uh, the point of someone like him is to, like, examine blood stains and try to

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: provide the best explanation for the events that produce the blood stains.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Blood is a fluid, therefore it can react in some specific and predictable ways and can be

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: recreated.

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you keep that in mind, you can sort of map out what happened at a crime scene.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it will involve some conjecture, but it can be sort of an informed opinion ultimately

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: because you are looking at what makes sense based on what the blood is doing.

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he was first contacted to work on this case on February 12th of 2024.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, after that, he reviewed crime scene photographs, uh, reports, diagrams, lab reports, autopsy photos,

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_03]: autopsy report.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: On April 4th, 2024, he went to the crime scene.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: On April 5th, 2024, he examined, uh, the clothing worn by, uh, Abigail Williams, or as he called

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_03]: her, Miss Williams.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_03]: He really took care to try to refer to Abby and Libby with as much respect as possible.

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And that, like, that, that, like, that alone makes me cry because it's like, that's what

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: they deserved.

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not what they got, you know?

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's like...

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And one thing, the oddly, all sorts of awful details, but I think what got to me the most

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: was this, this man, Major Cicero.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_03]: This is his career.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_03]: He's seen all sorts of awful things.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And you have to imagine that to some extent, as much as possible, he's gotten used to it.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But there were moments in his testimony today, it felt like he was choking up a bit.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And that got me.

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that this, this obviously very tough, serious professional that this case emotionally

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_03]: got to him.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_03]: That, that, that certainly got to me.

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, he talked about just the topography and visiting the scene.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I don't feel has been, like, fully spelled out yet is that the, um, the

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: girls were killed and, and where they were is almost like a, he described as like almost

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bowl, a little depression.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little bit lower.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's parts within it, like a bowl that are higher up than others.

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so keep that in mind.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a little sallow indentation in the ground.

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, not like a hole, but, but that's kind of the visual that we're kind of getting.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: They put a diagram of the crime scene on their, uh, big screen television for the jurors and

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the gallery to see, uh, and, uh, this initial diagram was, uh, an illustration, a line illustration

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: of the bodies of the two girls.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I believe a couple of trees, some large bloodstains, and of course the sticks on top

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: of the bodies.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And one thing, this diagram was on the screen a lot.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes in between other images, they would return to it.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And most of the time when it was on the screen, Richard Allen would just stare at it transfixed.

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like before we got into the crime scene pictures during the DNA discussion, he seemed

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: like he had mostly a normal affect from what I saw.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I was at an angle where I don't think I saw him as much as other times, but I felt

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's kind of like, okay, he's not really, he didn't really seem to be staring at people.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, okay, this, you know, again, like we don't read into that.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We're just trying to describe to you what we're seeing.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, people who are nervous or neurodivergent or there can be any number of reasons someone's

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: doing something like staring at people.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't make someone guilty.

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It is something to note and it is something that, you know, defense teams don't necessarily

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: want their client doing in front of a jury because it might creep people out.

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't mean anything factually.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not evidence against somebody.

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like being really calm and smiling and acting normal doesn't make you not guilty.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But I felt he had had been kind of having a good day in that sense, at least from what

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I saw, which was limited.

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, yeah, I think he, he was, he seemed less stressed out this time with the crime scene

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: photos, even with some of the really graphic, horrible ones.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I saw him just kind of with his head slightly tilted, just staring right at the screen.

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And a couple of times I saw Andrew Baldwin had his arm on the back of Richard Allen's chair.

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It was the sort of gesture that you often might see a couple, a guy in a couple, you know,

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_03]: when we sit in chairs next to each other, sometimes I put my arm around the back of the chair.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: He, he, at one point I saw, I saw Allen like alone and then I looked back and like Baldwin

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: was like leaned over, like really, like very much leaned over kind of to comfort him or

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: something.

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's almost how it appeared.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, that was something I noticed too, just kind of like, it almost looked like a gesture

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of comfort.

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how it was really intended, but that, that persisted for some time.

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So they started showing pictures of the body, talk about how there was a larger tree and

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_03]: a smaller tree.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I believe it was a smaller tree that has some blood on it, about four feet up from the base

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and Liberty German's body was a few feet away from it and it was near a large tree.

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_03]: He talked about the blood stain.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It was, I believe 1.37 inches by 5.9 inches.

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So not huge.

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And he referred to it as a transfer stain and he says in the shape of an upside down L.

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the image that some people say looks like an F.

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And in his testimony over the summer, he indicated his belief that it was in fact a transfer stain

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_03]: from Libby's hand and perhaps of her arm.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Where she's trying to, she's been injured and is trying to steady herself essentially before

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: she falls down and dies.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know.

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And he talked about how the crime scene investigators put a chemical on the tree that stains blood

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_03]: in order to bring out the contrast because it can be difficult to see blood stains on, you

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_03]: know, a dark tree.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And so this made the blood more visible.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't, I'm not a blood scene expert, but to me when, when they showed some of these

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: pictures, it really did not look painted onto me.

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what your impression was.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I would, I would agree with that.

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, we, we showed some pictures, we were shown pictures of some blood stains under Libby's

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_03]: right leg.

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_03]: There was a photo shown looking towards the girls and there was a large pool of blood in

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_03]: the foreground that, uh, was just disturbingly clear.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was really the most vivid I've seen it because it can be hard to see with all

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the leaves.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: There's layers and layers of leaves on the ground and it just, you know, this is not like a,

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not like a floor indoors where you can see a pool of blood, but in that picture,

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I really saw it.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I really, really saw it.

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_03]: There was a closeup of, uh, the bottom of, uh, one of, uh, Libby's feet and that picture

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_03]: was shown because it had blood transfer blood stains on it, which, uh, he said indicated that

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_03]: she walked on her blood before she, uh, passed away.

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And he, there was some all sorts of closeup pictures looking down on Libby and he was, uh,

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_03]: showing, you know, blood stains on her and blood flow patterns.

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Because if you want to try to figure out a position someone was in when they received

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: one of these injuries, you look at these blood flows and how, uh, they either stay the same

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: or change.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he indicated at one point it looked like she may have been sitting when she received

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: one of her wounds.

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sitting, um, and that she was, she was at least mobile for some of the attack based

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: on the blood flow and, and the kind of the way it all looked to him and her hands.

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: The, he described, I, I, I'll never like it.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The blood on her hands had congealed and dried, um, so that they almost resembled scabs on her

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: cuticles.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, there was a closeup of, uh, Libby after the branches had been removed and, uh, the wounds

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: on her neck were, uh, unspeakably horrible.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And he, he pointed to, uh, he said he could see where, uh, Libby had, uh, he saw a tear

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: on Libby's face.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was like some kind of, um, with her face, like some kind of, uh,

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess like break in the blood and.

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Lettrell asked him what would cause that.

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, absent a raindrop, it would be consistent with a tear.

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not going to lie.

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I just like, I thought like, like after seeing some of the stuff we saw in this trial so far,

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think like I had anything like else to be, you know what I mean?

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I thought I'd kind of cried it out and I, I just lost it at that point.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so horrible.

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the idea that somebody would do this to these kids and like what they went through

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is just the worst thing I can think of.

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's, it's, it's horrifying.

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's horrifying.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really, um, it's awful.

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel, and like their families have to be adhered, hear this and it's a, it's a circus and all

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: this ridiculous speculation online.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like, it's, it's a nightmare.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: This whole thing's a nightmare.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, there were smears of blood on her hands and wrists.

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, this is very, very, very common in situations like this, because if someone

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_03]: is wounded in such a way that produces this flowing amounts of blood, their instinct is

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_03]: to try to stop it.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And so they're like desperately putting their hands or their wrists or whatever up to their

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_03]: neck in order to stop the, uh, flow of blood.

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought the, uh, the worst picture for me was a picture of Libby's face and it was covered

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in blood on her cheeks, her chin, her nose.

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, that was to show that, um, there was likely movement after her death or after she

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: fell unconscious because it almost like looked like a nosebleed or something like not, not

[01:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: really, but like, it was like, is there blood coming from her nose?

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer was no, there was no injury to her nose.

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just her head probably tilted back when she was being moved.

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And then that made blood flow from the injury to her face.

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like trying to clarify everything for the jury.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't really see their reactions because of where we were sitting.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, this is a jury that's had to look at some really horrible stuff.

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So my heart goes out to them too.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Then when he started talking about Abby, he said there was small pool of blood to the right

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: of her, uh, injury to the left side of neck.

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Her sweatshirt was saturated with blood.

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Her hands were up, bent at the elbows close to the body.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_03]: He said it was almost like a pugilistic pose, like, you know, a boxer or something.

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And he pointed out that this was something he considered, uh, unusual, that there was

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_03]: no blood on Abby's hands, uh, also none on her sleeves or her arms.

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, we just saw with Libby, she was trying to staunch the flow of blood.

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So it was all over her hands and arms.

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a bit of a mystery as to why that didn't happen with, uh, Abby.

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: He actually said he'd never seen that before, right?

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said he speculated on reasons it could have happened.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, well, maybe she was, uh, uh, unconscious, uh, maybe she was restrained or bound in some

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: way, although there was no indication that she was bound.

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: There would have been ligature marks if she was bound.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, you know, but restrained if she's being held.

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think back through the marks around her mouth, there is someone like pushing her down

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and she's like in the pugilistic pose because she's almost trying to grapple with them, but

[01:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: then loses consciousness and then it's over.

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But it seems like she might have taken a long time to succumb to that.

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, again, he offered his explanation for the blood on the tree.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: He said when Libby was wounded, the blood flow would be immediate.

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's normal for victims to instinctively put their hands to the wound and attempt to stop

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the bleeding.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: This accounts for the blood on her hands and wrists.

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And she must have like leaned against the tree with her hand or something.

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and Abby, Abby, as we mentioned, Abby had none of that on her hands or arms, but after

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: she was moved up the hill, she did.

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was probably because the blood dripped down because of the, because her body had to

[01:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: be moved up a very steep hill.

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So it like was flowing downward, but that wasn't there at the scene.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he believes that, uh, Libby was dragged a short distance to the location where her body

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_03]: was found.

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, apparently in the position where she was found, she would actually be less visible

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_03]: to people in the creek than, uh, where she, uh, passed away.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, her, one of her arms was kind of up at an unnatural angle.

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So he believes that the killer basically dragged her by the arm a short distance, a short distance.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think just a few feet, right?

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Just a few feet.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And then with Abby, he talked about, um, he thought the body might've been manipulated

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: after death, but not really moved from what, like he thought that she was basically injured

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and killed right where she lay.

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: What he indicated though, was that there was some manipulation because of the blood flow.

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So it almost looked like someone even kind of tilted her over, maybe to check if she was

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: still alive, something to that effect, but not some sort of major movement and certainly

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: not moved like Libby was.

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And he did come back a couple of times to the idea that it was incredibly unusual that there

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_03]: was no blood on her hands because he said, uh, Abby's death would not have been immediate.

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It would have taken some time.

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, he talked about predation.

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, basically Luttrell was asking him, is it really weird that there wouldn't be any entomology

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: activity with bugs or any sort of animal activity?

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: This is something the defense has made an issue of.

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: They made an issue of it.

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So he said, um, you know, basically you'd see with the blow fly, they'd, they'd come in

[01:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said he was not surprised at all to not see blow fly activity after 22 hours in

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the woods in Indiana in winter in February.

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Basically not surprised that they didn't see that.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just that, that time, basically what he said is that they don't really come out

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: at night.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, a lot of the time they would have been there overnight and then they don't really

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: come out until it's like above 50 degrees.

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he said.

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it was February.

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It was cold.

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and in addition to that animals specifically in Indiana, there'd be concerns about, um,

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: rats, possums, turkey vultures, and coyotes.

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said the cool temperature and the cold could also dampen odor.

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So with the fact that they were right near a body of water and in a little valley.

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And it, it was not surprising that after that amount of time, there was no predation.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Just that's not what you'd necessarily expect.

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: He dealt with the issue was Abby dressed after she died.

[01:20:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And he said that she was, he believed she was dressed when she died because there was

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: so much saturation of blood on the inside of the sweatshirt.

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And if she was dressed after death, there was, there was so much blood it would have been,

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: uh, smeared and wiped all over her body.

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And there was a picture of her torso and it was completely clear of blood.

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was interesting because at one point earlier, OJ had said something about bodies

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: being dressed and, and Latrell objected and said, there's nothing in evidence to indicate

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that either one was, you know, like anyone was dressed after death.

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So the state clearly strongly believes that Abby was wearing those exact clothes when she

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: died.

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's supported by seemingly blood evidence being, you know, having those sweatshirt being

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_00]: completely saturated and the, and the lack of, there would be just more of a mess if,

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: if somebody had killed her and then dressed her cause the blood would have gotten everywhere.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And really with Abby, it was kind of in the ground beneath her.

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It was around her neck, a little bit on her face, but it was not anywhere near anything like

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: what, what, with Libby.

[01:22:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Cicero was also asked about the core body temperature because the, the thinking is you

[01:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: take the core body temperature of a corpse and it could help you determine, uh, when death

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_03]: occurred.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And he said the most accurate way to take the core body, uh, temperature is rectally, but

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: this could create injury and it could also affect any DNA if there had been a sexual assault.

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, when the bodies were found, there was the, the, the thought or the concern, if you

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: will, that there may have been a sexual assault.

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's why they didn't do that particular, uh, temperature.

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: He was asked, uh, could one person have committed this crime?

[01:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, yes.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and then OJ immediately started on at least one, but maybe more.

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And then also she started saying, well, they didn't ask you to do this until 2024.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought this was kind of a stupid argument.

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, I get what she's saying.

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think it's just like, oh wow, they're so slapdash.

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They only ever thought to bring you in now, but they had crime scene investigators who were

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: saying very similar things.

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted a guy who just brought more expertise to it and could also talk specifically about

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the blood.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't feel like we're hearing, having heard some of the forensics guys, it doesn't

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: sound that different.

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, he's bringing all these disciplines together in a way that's easy for the jury

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: to understand.

[01:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So it just, I don't know.

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: This seems kind of like not super relevant.

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, she also brought up that, uh, Libby weighed 200 pounds.

[01:23:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the implication was that, uh, maybe that's too big of a, of a weight for Richard

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Allen to drag.

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like forget Richard Allen for a minute, but like for a man dragging a body that he's

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: not concerned about injuring at all because it's a dead body as somebody he killed a few

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: feet doesn't, doesn't really seem like impossible to me.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I agree with that.

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, also when there was a big, big discussion with OJ about like drag marks, where are the

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: drag marks and what, what Cicero pointed out was that blood is adhesive.

[01:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's sticky.

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And when there was photographs shown of Libby's back and it was covered in blood, leaves, mud,

[01:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and basically like there's no drag marks because, or limited drag marks, limited visibility drag

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: marks because there's all these layers of leaves and the leaves are getting stuck to her and

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of sliding along with her.

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not like she's just on the ground where like there'd be dirt and like, you know, drag

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: marks on that.

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's just, the scene is a bit different, but she was, you know, where are the drag marks

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: on the, you know, what was it?

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Diagram and complaining about that.

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, they're just pointing out like the, what the defense thinks is that she wasn't

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: dragged was that she was deposited by a group of men or at least two men, I guess.

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Who I guess picked her up and moved her.

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Who picked her up and moved her.

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But then I don't know.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_03]: She also tried to suggest that maybe the lack of blood on Abigail's hands could be explained

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_03]: by multiple people holding her down or perhaps someone washing her hands post-mortem.

[01:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the holding her down thing is more compelling for me than the washing because

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that just seemed kind of dumb.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_03]: She tried to get him to say that if you take a picture of a cartridge at a crime scene,

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_03]: you really should try to get a picture of the entire cartridge.

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And Cicero maintained, you should get a picture of the entire cartridge at the lab.

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_03]: At the crime scene, you don't want to do anything that might damage fingerprints or other types

[01:26:00] [SPEAKER_03]: of evidence.

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So the important thing is that the crime scene simply to document where it was when it was

[01:26:05] [SPEAKER_03]: discovered.

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was one thing that Auger liked that had been set up in the prosecution's initial

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: direct was the possibility that the girls could have been killed in different times.

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, when, when Luttrell was kind of talking about it, he was, it was more of like, it almost

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: sounded, and tell me if you think the same thing, Kevin, like that maybe Libby was slashed

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: once or twice and then Abby, and then he went back to Libby to kind of kill her, like finish

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it.

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Like there, there might've been some different order to it.

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[01:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And, but then it seemed like what Auger was kind of hinting at was like totally different

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: times or like, kind of like she, she made a big deal of that too.

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, she said, did you find anything that links Richard Allen to the crime scene?

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, no.

[01:27:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, on redirect, they brought up again that, uh, Libby's left arm was in the position it

[01:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: was because she was dragged by it.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, was that basically it for, uh, the, the key points from the redirect?

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.

[01:27:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Auger in her recross, uh, uh, said you shared your hypothesis about the blood on the

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: tree.

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just a supposition.

[01:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You have no idea for sure how that blood got on that tree.

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, it.

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I could say that about any witness.

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no one was watching this happen or we wouldn't be here right now.

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, he, he is an expert in his, uh.

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a very good witness.

[01:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he was, he's always compelling and heartbreaking and, you know, we'll have to

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: see.

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure the defense will have their own blood splatter expert who might be able to kind

[01:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: of say something, you know, more, more in line with what they think happened.

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we'll have to see what happens there.

[01:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a difficult day.

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It was very sad and just, you know, just depressing, but we'll, um, we'll tell you about tomorrow

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: then next time.

[01:28:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you so much for listening.

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.

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[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's

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[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability

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[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

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[01:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think our audience will like it.

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[01:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh yeah, I

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: remember when Jason said this.

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes, because he really has a good grasp of different

[01:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: complicated issues.

[01:31:24] [SPEAKER_03]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I remember when Jason said this?

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

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[01:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion

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[01:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

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[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

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[01:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[01:32:45] It's