The JFK Assassination: A Conversation with Warren Commission Lawyer and Author Burt Griffin On the Mysteries of Jack Ruby

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[00:03:07] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including graphic discussion of gunshot injuries. President John F. Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963. One of the reasons many Americans even today have doubts and questions about that case is because Oswald never got to have a trial.

[00:03:32] On Sunday, November 24, 1963, he was shot to death by a Dallas nightclub owner named Jack Ruby. Ruby's actions, of course, raised questions. Was he tied to organized crime? Was he himself part of a conspiracy? And had he been given the assignment to silence Oswald? The Warren Commission was formed by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the president's assassination.

[00:03:58] But the questions about Jack Ruby were important enough that it was decided that the commission needed to look into him as well. One of the two commission staffers specifically tasked with focusing on Jack Ruby was Burt Griffin, and we are honored to have him as our guest today. Burt has had a long and distinguished legal career. He recently also authored a wonderful book about the Kennedy assassination, JFK, Oswald, and Ruby, Politics, Prejudice, and Truth.

[00:04:25] He has come on the program before to discuss Lee Harvey Oswald. But today, our attention will be on Jack Ruby, the man who murdered the assassin. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:52] And this is The JFK Assassination, a conversation with Warren Commission lawyer and author Burt Griffin on the mysteries of Jack Ruby.

[00:05:48] How did Jack Ruby react to the assassination of President John Kennedy? You know, on the morning of November 22nd, Friday, November 22nd, before the president was shot, Jack Ruby would play ads for his two striptease nightclubs at the Dallas Morning News.

[00:06:10] And he was very, very upset by a full-page advertisement that had been placed in the Dallas Morning News that criticized President Kennedy. It was headlined, welcome Mr. Kennedy to Dallas. But in fact, it was not a welcoming message.

[00:06:32] And it was a full-page advertisement with a black border around it that was very critical of President Kennedy. And Ruby was worried about this ad even before he knew that the president had been shot. Because the ad was signed with the name Bernard White, a woman who was Jewish recognized that as the name of someone who might be Jewish. And his own view was that no one who was Jewish would be anti-Kennedy.

[00:07:02] And therefore, he believed that the name was a fictitious name. And he complained about this advertisement to the advertising department in the Dallas Morning News on the morning the president was shot, before he even knew that the president had been shot. But when he heard that the president had been shot, he became quite upset. And he began to think that the black border on the ad had some significance,

[00:07:27] that it was symbolic that the black border predicted that Kennedy was going to be shot or die. And his concern was that with the name Bernard Weissman, as the signatory or the chairman of what was called the American Fact-Finding Committee, which was actually a committee of about four people who had paid for the ad, that this was a fictitious name, a fictitious Jewish name,

[00:07:54] and that Jews would be blamed for the assassination. So that was his initial reaction. We know that he went almost directly from the Dallas Morning News, once he heard that the president had been shot, to his nightclub, the carousel club, and made a number of telephone calls and made plans to close his nightclub. He had two nightclubs, two striptease nightclubs. So that was his initial reaction.

[00:08:23] Now, shall we pick it up from there or you want to ask him questions? Yeah. So what story did reporter Seth Cantor tell about Ruby that weekend? And do you believe that story? Well, Seth Cantor said that when Ruby left the Dallas Morning News, that he went to Parkland Hospital, because, of course, that's where President Kennedy was being taken from the moment he was shot.

[00:08:49] And Seth Cantor believes that Ruby constructed him at Parkland Hospital and asked Cantor whether he thought it was a good idea, whether Cantor thought it was a good idea to close his nightclub. Ruby denies going to Parkland Hospital. When Ruby was questioned by Chief Justice Warren, and that was the only questioning that was done directly by the commission itself, he didn't ask Ruby about whether he ever talked to Cantor.

[00:09:18] We do know that by about 10 o'clock in the evening, Ruby was at the Dallas police station. We also know that he closed his nightclubs and made signs closing the nightclub sometime in the afternoon of November 22nd. We know that when he got to the Dallas police station, that he was talking to people about and telling people that he was closing his nightclubs.

[00:09:45] So my own personal view is that Cantor is mistaken about where he talked to Ruby, and that because it seems to me that given what Ruby has told us, there's really no reason for Ruby to deny that he went to Parkland Hospital. So his saying that he denied going there is just as consistent with his telling the truth as not. So my own personal view, and I've gone back and forth on this with Cantor,

[00:10:14] I've talked with Cantor about it, and I've been ambivalent about it, but my own present personal view is that he was mistaken as to where he saw Ruby, that he probably saw Ruby at the Dallas police station, that there was no reason for him to remember Ruby until Sunday afternoon. So my own feeling is that he's just mistaken as to where he saw him and when he saw him. So what do we know about Ruby? Do you want me to pick this up?

[00:10:45] Sure. Okay. We know that Ruby called the co-owner of one of his nightclubs, at least I saw that he, who invested, gave him money to finance his nightclubs, nightclubs, a guy named Ralph Paul, talked to him about closing the nightclub in honor of the president's death and also asking if he wanted to go to religious services that night with Ruby.

[00:11:12] Ralph Paul did not want to go to religious services, but Ruby went to religious services. So we know, and his rabbi remembers seeing him there and talking to Ruby afterward, and that Ruby was quite upset about the death of President Kennedy. We also know that from the religious services, he went to a delicatessen that was in Dallas and purchased a half a dozen corned beef sandwiches

[00:11:41] and a half a dozen soft drinks for the purpose of taking it to the Dallas police station to give to the police officers who were, you know, working full time on what was going on. So we know that Ruby went with these sandwiches and soft drinks to the police station and probably got there about 10 o'clock at night. We also know that at midnight, approximately, Ruby was there, that a press conference was held

[00:12:08] in which Oswald by that time had been arrested and he was displayed to the press. And we have a photograph of Ruby at the press conference, standing with a bunch of lawyers with a note pad in his hand and what looked like a pen or a pencil. We know from having interviewed other news people who were at the Dallas police station that Ruby told some of the news people,

[00:12:37] and I think told the police, as a matter of fact, more specifically, that he was a translator for the Israeli press. So Ruby wanted to be at the scene of the action. Sounds like you have a question. Why did you call Ruby the first conspiracy investigator? Tell us more about that. Because Ruby then became convinced that Jews were going to be blamed for the assassination of President Kennedy.

[00:13:06] He was convinced that Bernard Weitzman was a fictitious name. Ruby was a great investigator. He looked in the telephone directory. And incidentally, he did not know anybody in Dallas who was named Bernard Weitzman. And I'd love to say that Bernard Weitzman is and was a real person. And there's a fascinating story about Weitzman himself, which we can go into perhaps later.

[00:13:35] But in any event, Ruby's investigation consisted of going to the telephone directory and talking to friends. And nobody knew Bernard Weitzman. So he began with the idea that it was a fictitious name. One of his friends, who was his lawyer, I think his last name was Kaufman, did not know anybody by the name of Bernard Weitzman and suggested to Ruby that he looked at his street directory. So Ruby looked at the street directory and also didn't find the name of Bernard Weitzman.

[00:14:04] The reason that the name Bernard Weitzman wasn't known to anybody who was a resident of Dallas was that he had come to Dallas as a part. He actually lived in the metropolitan New York area. He was a young guy in his middle 20s and he had just been released from military service. But he was part of a group of military comrades, friends, who had decided to try to,

[00:14:31] when they got out of the military service and they were very response conservatives, their goal was to themselves infiltrate the conservative movement in the United States and to take control and kind of spearhead the conservative movement in the United States. Three of them had come to Dallas only quite recently and they had made friends with people who were leaders in the John Birx Society

[00:15:00] and who were strong supporters of General Edwin Walker, who people thought might be a candidate for president. So Weitzman actually existed and his name got put on the ad because the ad was really placed there by finance, at least, by four people who were members of the John Birx Society and had a good bit of money. So in any event, Ruby spent the next two days from the time he heard that the president had been shot and killed

[00:15:28] until he was himself arrested for shooting Oswald. He spent the next two days trying to find Weitzman. Ruby was unmarried and single but had a roommate who actually hadn't lived with him very long and I think had only lived with him for maybe three or four months and not even clear how long they had known each other but he rousted his roommate out of bed at about two o'clock in the morning and also called a guy who was his night manager

[00:15:58] who slept anyhow at his carousel club and called him at the carousel club to get a camera and the three of them went to a sign on one of the Dallas streets which was a billboard that said it'd teach your own Warren because Ruby had seen this sign and somehow believed that the full-page blackboarder ad that had the Weitzman name on it might somehow be connected with the impeachment of Warren billboard.

[00:16:28] Incidentally in the course of his going to photograph the billboard he asked who Earl Warren was he didn't even know who Earl Warren was but so anyhow that's why I've said in my book that Ruby really became one of the very first conspiracy investigators. You mentioned a moment ago something about his visit to police headquarters that evening I'd like to know a little bit more about that but also I'm curious

[00:16:58] what was Jack Ruby's relationship like with the local police? Well Ruby was single he did have a girlfriend at some point but I don't think he was seeing her at that time although he did talk to her when the president was assassinated well let's put it this way it remained a friendship but was not a romance of any sort Ruby as I said was single he was 55 years old

[00:17:27] he owned two striptease nightclubs one of which was managed by his sister Eva Grant who was also I think probably divorced since her last name was Grant but not living with her husband or ex-husband and he had another sister who lived in the Dallas area Ruby was a dog lover his closest relationships were with his seven dogs one of whom

[00:17:57] named Sheba whom he called his wife Ruby had a lot of acquaintances and friends but no one with whom he had a deep personal relationship and no children obviously or maybe not obviously so he was a loner why did Ruby even leave his apartment on Sunday morning Ruby I think wanted to stay on top of what

[00:18:26] was happening Ruby Ruby was kind of like someone who likes to pursue fire engines Ruby wanted to be where the action was so he was intending to get to the Dallas police station sometime on Sunday but didn't have any specific plan as to when he got a phone call from one of his strippers one of his dancers who went by the name of Little Lynn who I think

[00:18:55] was calling from Fort Worth and in any event since he had closed his night clubs and the dancers were paid on a per dance basis she had not been paid for any Friday or Saturday night activities and she was out of money so she called Ruby about 9 o'clock on Sunday morning and asked to give her an advance or maybe to pay for what he already

[00:19:25] owed her in any event she needed money and Ruby said that he was planning anyhow to go downtown and that he would go to the Western Union office and send her a money order so somewhere and incidentally the Dallas chief of police had told the news media that if they got there by 10 o'clock in the morning they'd be able to see the transfer of Oswald from the Dallas police station to the Dallas county jail the

[00:19:54] county jail was a different building and he was going to have to be put in a car and driven there so the Western Union office from which Ruby sent the money order was one block from the Dallas police station where Oswald was being held so Ruby told little Lynn who made the phone call that he was going downtown anyhow and he would send her a money order

[00:20:24] in fact he did that now he took with him of all things his favorite dog Sheba went and money and Sheba and parked across the street from the Western Union office which was one block from the Dallas police station he left Sheba in his car he went to the Western Union station stood in line while a previous customer was

[00:20:54] sending out a telegram or something and so that we know that Ruby wired a money order to little Lynn whose name actually real name was Karen Carlin at 1121 I believe the time was when the money order was sent and Ruby then walked out and saw a crowd gathered at an exit ramp from the Dallas County jail and thus assumed that Oswald had not been

[00:21:23] moved walked through the one block to the down ramp of the into the county jail garage and approximately four minutes after he sent the money order Oswald was brought out and he shot Oswald and that tends to buttress the idea frankly that there wasn't some complex conspiracy here because it would

[00:21:53] have had to have split second timing he would have had to know exactly when to appear there and he certainly wouldn't have taken the dog that he loved and leave the dog in the car when he knew he was about to do something that might make it impossible for him to return to the car and let me interrupt you if it was a conspiracy it was not a well planned conspiracy

[00:22:24] that's very fair to say no sensible conspirator would want to deal with a guy like Ruby who was going to take his dog to the shooting despite that there have been plenty of people trying to claim there was ties to organized crime what can you tell us about that the business said yes he had grown up in Chicago he actually knew

[00:22:54] people who were parts of organized crime when he was a teenager in Chicago and let me say to yourself the fact that you knew somebody who later was involved in organized crime means very little I want you to know that when I was in elementary school our den father was a man named Big Al of the Prohibition days Polizzi and he was a wonderful den

[00:23:24] father except we lost our den father when I was in the sixth grade because he got arrested for bootlegging and yes I knew his son and later one of the nephews of Big Al who was my den father was actually executed as a part of organized crime when he became an adult so the idea that you knew people you grew up in some kind of neighborhood you knew somebody who involved in organized crime

[00:23:54] doesn't in an acquaintance and a friend in Dallas who was a restaurant owner who people would claim was part of organized crime yes so the answer was

[00:24:24] yes he knew people and he had contact now if there was if there was a conspiracy I would imagine that in the hours between the assassination and the time that Ruby shot Oswald there would have Jack Ruby and his fellow conspirators and you mentioned some phone calls he made was there anything any reason to be suspicious about those phone calls well we we

[00:24:54] attempted to check that is with the warrant co-answered staff we attempted and the FBI we attempted to check every phone call that Ruby made from frankly from the time that Ruby would have first known that the president was going to come to Dallas time in very late September or early October we tried to trace every phone call that he was known to make and we could find no phone call

[00:25:23] connecting him in any way with someone who was involved with organized group I wanted to ask you what was the story that Jack Ruby told about what made him kill Oswald and how did he explain how he gained access to the garage well the story of how he gained access to the garage was basically as I said a few minutes ago that when he sent his money order to Little Lynn

[00:25:53] and walked out of the Western Union office he was aware that a crowd had gathered outside of the Dallas police station at the exit ramp from the police station garage and so he assumed that Oswald had not been transferred quite coincidentally as he walked to one block and got to the ramp that would go down into the garage a police car was exiting the ramp and the

[00:26:22] police officer who was standing guard at the top of the ramp then walked out into the street to make sure that traffic wasn't going to get in the way of this car that was exiting so the police officer had his back to anybody who was walking where Ruby was walking and Ruby then walked past the back end of the car as the car was exiting the ramp and walked down the ramp and stood in the

[00:26:52] waiting line with officers and news media people who were waiting for Oswald to come out I went there and why he shot Oswald he gave two or three different accounts explanations of why he did it the first explanation he gave was when Secret Service agent Forrest

[00:27:22] Sorrell questioned him very shortly after he had been rattled to the ground and the police station to the garage and taken up to the fifth floor waiting to be questioned by the chief of the homicide department and Forrest Sorrell who was a Secret Service agent was the first to talk to him before the police were able to do that and Sorrell's account is that he asked Ruby why he

[00:27:52] did it and Ruby's answer was I had to show the world a Jew had guns which ties in with what I have been suggesting here with his fear and belief that Jews would be blamed for the assassination but by the he started talking to

[00:28:54] I had to do it, which what he was referring to was the fact that Oswald had murdered police officers, Officer J.D. Tippett, within an hour of the time that Oswald had shot the president.

[00:29:09] The point was that he had reason to believe that police officers would like to retaliate for the loss of their own fellow officer, J.D. Tippett, and Ruby said to some of the police officers, you couldn't do it, so I had to do it, or worse to those effects.

[00:29:30] So Ruby had very different accounts, some of which, as I just indicated, had to do with his fear of anti-Semitism, some of it having to do with wanting to spare Jacqueline Kennedy's needs for coming to testify, and retaliation.

[00:29:49] I think, in fact, Ruby wanted to be a hero, and I think Ruby fully thought that if he had to go to trial, he would be either acquitted simply because so many people were emotional that almost anybody who had a gun, and people who had guns in Texas, that almost anybody who was a citizen who could shoot Oswald would want to do it.

[00:30:18] Well, of course, as one of the staff members of the Warren Commission, you and Leon Hubert, I believe, were assigned to work on this Jack Ruby angle in particular. I'm just curious, how did you guys happen to get that particular assignment? You know, I have no idea how we were assigned. There were a dozen of us initially.

[00:30:44] Initially, there were 16 to two lawyers. One, a more senior lawyer, Leon Hubert, was about in his early 50s, and he had been an assistant U.S. attorney in New Orleans. So he had experience in criminal investigation. I had been an assistant United States attorney in Cleveland. I had that experience as well.

[00:31:11] So I suppose, looking at who the people were, that maybe it made sense that somebody who had had trial experience would have been a good team to follow the Ruby trial, the Ruby case. Yes, I find it interesting too, of course.

[00:31:34] The whole reason the Warren Commission was created, or at least the major reason, was because Ruby killed Oswald, so Oswald wasn't around to have a trial. So the facts couldn't all be determined. But not only was Jack Ruby still alive, but at the time you began your work investigating this, he himself was facing a trial.

[00:31:58] How did those facts, how did the existence of him being on trial complicate the Warren Commission's investigation into him and what he did?

[00:32:08] Well, as far as Hubert and I were concerned, we felt that we could not ourselves take any testimony from or personally interview anybody who was going to be a witness or who might be a witness at the Ruby trial.

[00:32:30] So, and I will say that we probably had thousands of pages of documents that had already been provided with respect to the Ruby matter by the FBI, because they had themselves gone ahead and interviewed everybody that they could possibly think of that might in some way be connected with what Ruby did or with the possibility of a conspiracy.

[00:33:00] And initially, also, they had a tremendous volume of documents about Ruby's past history, about his childhood and so forth. So we knew we had just a tremendous amount of reading material, and we didn't want to take testimony from people who might be witnesses at the trial for sure that we would be interfering with the trial.

[00:33:29] So we waited to take any sworn testimony until after the Ruby trial was completed. I wanted to ask you, what did you think of the work done by Ruby's defense attorneys during his trial? What sort of defense did they offer? You must understand that Ruby's lawyer, his trial lawyer, was one of the most successful personal injury plaintiff's lawyers in the nation.

[00:33:58] His name was Melvin Belli. He hadn't done a lot of criminal work, but he was an outstanding personal injury plaintiff's lawyer. Sadly, Belli was more interested in his own publicity than he was in getting the most favorable outcome for Ruby.

[00:34:19] Ruby's original lawyer, who he discharged, because his family felt that he ought to get a more high-profile lawyer. He was an experienced kind of street lawyer in Dallas who represented prostitutes, drunk driving cases, and had himself, however, handled, I think the number was 25 homicide cases,

[00:34:48] no one of whom had been given the death penalty. And I think his first name was Tom. His last name was Howard. He felt that what he should do is negotiate a plea bargain with the prosecutor's office, and that he could plead Ruby to a lesser offense that would not carry the death penalty,

[00:35:12] and Ruby would serve a modest time in prison and allegedly be released on parole. So Ruby was persuaded by his family to discharge Howard, and they ultimately hired Melvin Belli. Belli told one of his law firm associates that if he could get Ruby acquitted, as opposed to pleading him guilty to a lesser offense,

[00:35:38] if he could get Ruby acquitted, he would go down in history as another Clarence Darrell. So it was Belli's idea that he would raise a most unusual insanity defense based on what is called psychomotor epilepsy. He didn't really have much of a good case for this, but there was enough testimony that he could present it.

[00:36:05] And, of course, the prosecutor completely discredited this defense. And the result of this was that when the jury went to deliberate, they came back with a very, very quick verdict, and they immediately rejected the idea that Ruby was insane. You know, that was Melvin Belli putting his own self-interest

[00:36:29] in trying to become a world-renowned hero over the self-interest of his client. There were a number of other ethical problems in the Ruby trial, which you may or may not want to talk about. Let's talk about them. Well, one of them was that before the trial began, the judge who was going to handle the trial, Judge Joe Brown,

[00:36:56] entered into a contract and they got a $5,000 payment to write a book about the trial. Of course, one of the things that Melvin Belli properly wanted to do was to have the trial transferred out of Dallas. And if the trial were transferred to another location, Judge Brown would probably not handle the case. So there was a clear ethical problem here by having a contract

[00:37:23] that conflicted with his needs of rule in a fair manner on the motion for change of venue. I would raise another question about this. And I don't know whether there are any legal precedents that would address this question, but the foreman of the grand jury took thorough notes

[00:37:49] and incidentally, Dallas did not allow note-taking during the trial. But at the end of each trial session, each day of trial, he made very detailed notes because it was his intention of writing a book. So really, don't you have to raise the question of whether it's proper for a juror

[00:38:17] to be intending to write a book as a result of his jury service. I've never seen the issue raised, but it strikes me as imposing a kind of conflict of interest here. Absolutely. Now, we can also get to the question of the star prosecution witness against Ruby,

[00:38:40] the witness who testified to Ruby's premeditation, and that is Sergeant Patrick Dean. Do we want to talk about Dean? Let's talk about Patrick Dean, including your own run-in with him. Right. Well, Leon Hubert and I were very skeptical and suspicious about Dean

[00:39:06] because Dean was in charge of security in the basement. Dean was the person who was only supposed to allow proper people in the basement. Ruby obviously was not a proper person to be there. The question was, did Sergeant Dean see Ruby come down the ramp that brought him into the basement of the garage, or did he not see him? And if he did not see him, shouldn't he have seen him?

[00:39:36] Shouldn't he have been watching for that? And Dean incidentally was present when, as I indicated before, Secret Service agent Charles had questioned Ruby, and when he asked Ruby why he did it, Ruby said, I had to show the world that you had gut. Dean ultimately testified at trial that Ruby had said at that same time that he was being questioned by Agent Charles,

[00:40:05] that he began thinking about shooting Oswald on Friday night when Oswald was presented at a press conference that I indicated earlier that Ruby attended and took notes at. But Agent Charles never heard Ruby say that, never reported it. And in fact, Sergeant Dean did not file a written statement

[00:40:33] or tell anybody about this alleged statement by Ruby until I believe we're talking about December, January, for almost three months after Ruby was arrested, after he shot Oswald. So you would have thought that an experienced police officer in the first report that they ever wrote

[00:40:59] would have put this statement in about Ruby's premeditation. But it was not presented, I think, I may be wrong on the exact date. It was either late January or early February when he finally made a written statement about this. So we, and of course, in the meantime,

[00:41:25] that Sergeant Dean was in charge of security in the garage, his job was on the line. So he became the star witness on the issue of premeditation and he had his own conflict of interest. Huber and I were quite skeptical that he would not have put this in writing and had told somebody about this almost immediately after Oswald was shot and certainly would not wait until approximately three months later

[00:41:54] to put it in writing. So my concern, however, was not only about whether Ruby said something about premeditation, but also about how Ruby got in the garage and that if he did not come down the Main Street ramp, as he ultimately testified that he did, but came through another entranceway, then perhaps someone, and maybe somebody in the police department, also helped him.

[00:42:22] So now do we want to get into my interchange then with Dean or how do you want to proceed here? Oh, I think you know we definitely want to get into your exchange with Dean. Well, I took his testimony and he didn't say anything any different in his testimony to me, his deposition to me, than he said in testifying at trial.

[00:42:50] So, and as I recall, this was kind of in the middle of the latter part of the evening and my taking his deposition. So we took a break and each to get coffee or Coca-Cola or whatever we wanted to get. And I said to Dean, off the record, that I don't have my precise recollection of this 60 years later, but I did provide a written statement to the commission

[00:43:20] that was written contemporaneously. But as best I recall, at this particular point, I said to Dean that I shared that he had not told us everything that was accurate, that maybe there were things that he had not told us that we needed to know about. But I do rather specifically remember saying to him that he might not think that this was important, but we were taking testimony

[00:43:49] from all sorts of other people and we were trying to tie things together and it might have some relevance even though he wouldn't think it was terribly important. So anyhow, I indicated to him pretty clearly that I didn't think that he was being completely forthright with him. And I said to him that if he had things that he felt he hadn't told us and he felt it was different from what he had said or otherwise, he might want to get a lawyer

[00:44:17] and we would then be in some kind of discussions about what we could do to assure that he was not going to be unfairly treated. So in any event, he then, the very next day when the, probably that night, he contacted the prosecutor, Henry Wade, and told him that I had threatened him to accuse him of perjury and that I had threatened to prosecute him. And I think

[00:44:47] he could well understand that I did have perjury on my mind. I never used that word and think that he might have worried that he was going to be prosecuted. In any event, he then made an accusation to the Warren Commission that I threatened him. And that became an issue. That's quite a story. Did you face any repercussions from the Warren Commission for that? No, I did not.

[00:45:17] Well, yes and no. I did not go to Dallas when Ruby was being questioned by the Warren Commission. And it may well be that I didn't go to Dallas at that time because they didn't want to raise an issue with my presence being there.

[00:45:46] I did go back to Dallas on other occasions and took testimony, depositions from other witnesses. So I'm inclined to think that probably the reason that initially neither Leon nor I were at Jack Ruby's testimony. I think the dominant reason was that the Chief Justice wanted to be the one that questioned Ruby. And if one looks at Ruby's testimony, you can see why it was important

[00:46:15] to the Chief Justice for this to be a very limited group of people who were present during Ruby's testimony. It also gets to the question of anti-Semitism because Ruby very much wanted to testify to the Warren Commission. Ruby was very he fired his lawyer Melvin Belli when the jury gave him the death penalty and one of the reasons that he fired Belli was that

[00:46:45] Belli had not wanted him to testify at his trial and he did not testify at his trial. So his opportunity to testify for the first time was in front of the Warren Commission. when his deposition began he started talking before the Chief Justice even administered an oath to him and it was two or three or four or maybe five minutes before the Chief Justice realized that an oath had never been

[00:47:14] given to Ruby and Ruby just blurted out the things that he wanted to say without being questioned. So ultimately an oath was administered to Ruby and then perhaps a half hour or an hour went by and Ruby wanted to know if anybody any of the lawyers were Jewish who were present in the room. Well the only lawyers who were present in the room were the Chief Justice Congressman Gerald Ford

[00:47:43] and J. Lee Rankin the General Counsel of the Warren Commission. In the trip that the Chief Justice had made to Dallas there there had been a lawyer on the staff who was Jewish who had come along for the trip and that was Arlen Specter and the reason Brown Specter was being present in Dallas was that he wanted to be able to explain to the Chief Justice how the staff came up with the conclusion

[00:48:12] that Oswald had fired all the shots at President Kennedy but Specter was not in the room where Ruby was being questioned when Ruby asked if anybody there was Jewish. He would speed it on another floor just waiting for Ruby's questioning to end. So Arlen Specter was the only person who was Jewish who could be brought from the commission staff to meet Ruby's request. Jackie tells this story

[00:48:42] in his own book and for some reason or other it is not required in the court reporter's notes but according to Specter when Specter was brought into the room with Ruby and Warren and Ford and Rankin and was presented to Ruby Ruby said to him are you a Yid and Specter said

[00:49:11] that he didn't say anything and then he asked him again are you a Yid and I don't know how Specter was able to answer yes but they went ahead anyhow and as I say Specter was Jewish and that you know that was Ruby's way of asking that question Ruby engaged in a very personal discussion

[00:49:40] it was really amazing to read this transcript and to see the relationship that developed between the Chief Justice of the United States and Jack Ruby it was it was one in which there were two friends talking to each other and telling asking questions on the part of the Chief Justice but mostly just Ruby going on and on and on I think if one reads the testimony of Ruby and it's fascinating

[00:50:10] to read the testimony you'll get a very good sense of who Ruby was and Ruby wanted to have a lie detector taken he believed that only a lie detector would demonstrate that he was telling the truth the other thing is that Ruby asked to be taken to Washington and the reason he wanted to go to Washington was that he felt that he wanted to tell President Johnson everything he knew

[00:50:39] and he believed that if President Johnson could hear what he had to say that he would believe him but there was no desire whatsoever to indicate that there was anybody else involved in fact Ruby was very clear throughout all of his testimony that he had done it alone that there was no conspiracy and that indeed he believed that he was being prosecuted and people were suggesting that he might be involved

[00:51:09] in the assassination of President Kennedy because they were anti-Semitic and they were trying to choose for being part of the conspiracy to assassinate the president and that's what he said as he testified to Chief Justice Horne I think you've kind of answered this question based on just what you said but I want to underline this point in your opinion do you think Ruby seemed like he was in his right mind when he was making this testimony

[00:51:38] you know it's it Ruby Ruby was a mentally ill by the time he testified before the commission he was mentally ill whether he was psychotic or what the nature of his mental illness was you know

[00:52:06] I can't put myself in the professional position to say what his problem was but you know and maybe maybe Ruby was always you know Ruby was a talkative person in fact one of the reasons was that no one who knew Ruby would ever get Ruby involved in a conspiracy was that you want your fellow conspirators not to talk and Ruby

[00:52:36] was an unrestrained talker now what do you want to say he's psychotic I think some of those who knew him and some of the lawyers who were representing him believed he was psychotic so in this respect he was psychotic he did believe that on the streets of Dallas there was a holocaust taking place in which Jews were being rounded up and murdered by people who were political leaders in Dallas so he honestly believed that

[00:53:06] and he believed that his own family members wives were in danger so yes I think in that respect he was psychotic but I think you could be psychotic and still be accurate and truthful about other things you say so that's kind of my answer to you that makes sense I'm curious in your own investigation of this Ruby angle who do you consider to be some of the more important witnesses that you spoke with or dealt

[00:53:35] with well I think I think Ruby was the most important witness and what we were tempted to do was to contradict or verify everything that Ruby told because Ruby had spoken extensively to the FBI and you know for I think his testimony before the Warren Commission before Chief Justice Warren was about five hours and he also was given a polygraph test

[00:54:05] and so what we did if we could in every respect was try to either verify or contradict what he told us the bottom line was that almost I frankly can't think of anything that he said to us that was not verified well there are some things we could not have found out I think well I'll take this back probably there was a witness to every moment

[00:54:36] that Ruby was awake from the time he started in the Dallas morning news office to place an ad on the morning of November 22nd until he was finally questioned by the homicide department in Dallas on the 24th so yes I think in a sense we might not have needed any of Ruby's testimony but we needed to know whether he had another

[00:55:06] story and I think the reality was from all the witnesses that we had was that everybody who talked to them whether they were friends or just people that I stumbled into verified everything that Ruby said so I think Ruby's testimony is extremely important but other than Ruby who would you know I'm not sure I can answer your question I think you did I wanted to ask

[00:55:36] you as you look back on that period of your life and the work you did are there any standout memories of working with Hubert or working with other members of the commission that sort of really loom large in your mind one of the things that affected me most strongly was the fact that people who had very different political views were able to determine why Oswald and Ruby

[00:56:06] did what they did and whether or not there was a conspiracy you won't be surprised I'm a liberal Democrat I voted for Kennedy and I don't think I only in a few situations have I voted for people who were Republican and only because they were someone who if he and I

[00:56:35] were in the state legislature and he was a libertarian before there ever were libertarians before there were ones I had heard Jim Liebler who if he and I were in the state legislature together would probably not I felt was our best investigator

[00:57:05] and I'm telling this not to be disrespectful to anybody else because frankly I found all of them were determined to try to find if there was a conspiracy or not whether Oswald really did it or did not and so forth but we had a group of people and Liebler was at one extreme Norman Redlick was at the other extreme who

[00:57:34] despite their very intense political differences were able to work together on the question of what were the facts about the assassination of President Kennedy I think it's a lesson to be learned in today's world because there are people who we may politically disagree with who are interested in getting the truth and getting the facts and that what clearly had with the Warren Commission absolutely you guys

[00:58:04] were able to bring your talents and your energies together and even if you didn't agree in lockstep on everything you were able to ultimately get the work done and your goal was to get to the truth not to score political points absolutely and get you know our futures depended upon this if we knew everything that we worked on and that was going to be re-examined and so our professional futures depended upon it and furthermore if

[00:58:33] we could have found a conspiracy to assassinate the president don't you think we would have wanted to find it we would have been a national hero and that was our goal it was the nation's safety that was the issue and yes there were people like Sergeant Dean who I felt were not surely forthcoming with us but I don't think any of those people even who might have been withholding information from us did it

[00:59:03] for the purpose of trying to undermine the conclusion as to who did it and why I think they felt that what they were withholding were things that were tangential and irrelevant to the bottom line question of why did Oswald and Ruby do it and was there any kind of conspiratorial connection either between the two of them or with anybody else absolutely and yeah I think that's one thing Kevin and I often go back to is you know

[00:59:32] when people sort of dismiss the Warren Commission's findings it often they seem to not realize how badly most of you wanted there to be conspiracy in the beginning your bias was for there being a conspiracy and seeking truth you came to the conclusion that there was none and that's commendable but it's also when people are sort of like talking about it I feel like they often have no idea what they're speaking about I wanted to ask you actually just one thing like what was it

[01:00:02] like to work with Hubert in particular you guys were partnered up you kind of told us a little bit about him but what was that experience like for you what are your memories about him like my memory was that he was from New Orleans and he had a coca-cola for breakfast every morning and I learned the coca-cola was a popular drink oh my gosh he sounds like Kevin frankly he's a

[01:00:33] hardworking person and he you know we all felt the same way and he he's so honored to be doing what he was doing he was just a fine person to work with look at I was 31 years old and he was in his early 50s so he clearly was the senior partner in our operation but he never treated me as the junior we were always colleagues co-partners

[01:01:03] so he was very respectful and I hope I was to him and I guess you know is there anything else that we didn't ask you about about your experiences about your findings on Jack Ruby any of it and you know I I think we've really covered everything that needs to be covered so I thank you very much well we thank you Bert you've been a delight to talk to and we really appreciate you opening up about your experiences where can

[01:01:33] people buy your book it's on Amazon thank you for asking the title of the book is JFK Oswald and Ruby colon politics prejudice and truth so the book is on Amazon you can get it in two forms you can get it in paperback form or you can get it online it's actually you know you can get it to

[01:02:03] Barnes and Noble as well so I'm not trying to favor that only a few local bookstores are stocking it so probably the best thing to do is go online either with Amazon or with Barnes and Noble I'll give the title of the book again it's JFK Oswald and Ruby colon politics prejudice and truth well thank you again so much this has been wonderful and we hope to talk to you again soon

[01:02:33] in the future yes absolutely we really really appreciate Mr. Griffin taking the time to come on our show again to answer our questions about this case and again we highly recommend his wonderful book thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a

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