Under Suspicion: Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn on Trauma, Injustice, and Surviving Their "American Nightmare"

[00:00:00] Content Warning This episode contains discussion of violence and rape. The invaders put on a professional facade. They indicate they've done all of this before, but they have a routine protocol. It's just business. But there's been a mistake, the couple has told, a case of mistaken identity.

[00:00:52] Still, the woman will need to be abducted so the invaders can secure a ransom and make the operation worthwhile. The man will be left behind to facilitate payment. The invaders set up a camera on the wall to observe him, to ensure the man is not contacting

[00:01:08] the police or running for help. The woman and the man are both forced to consume drugs to knock them out. The man lies on the couch, still zip-tied, listening as his partner is driven away. Then he fades back into a drug-induced sleep. Again, that sounds like a nightmare.

[00:01:26] But that was the reality that Aaron Quinn and Denise Huskins awoke to in the early morning of March 23rd, 2015. That was when these two young physical therapists were attacked in Aaron's home in Vallejo, California. They were bound and blindfolded, drugged and threatened. Denise was kidnapped.

[00:01:46] Aaron was left behind to get the ransom. The following day, overcoming his fear of causing harm to Denise by going to law enforcement, Aaron freed himself and contacted authorities. Instead of offering help, the Vallejo Police Department accused Aaron of murdering Denise. They grilled him hard.

[00:02:05] They did not appear to investigate other angles. They seized his phone and put it on airplane mode, ignoring messages from the kidnappers, messages that could have pinpointed exactly where Denise was. Because of course, Denise wasn't dead.

[00:02:21] For those two days, she was held in captivity by a mysterious man who claimed to be part of a shadowy black market company. That man raped her. Then Denise was released in Huntington Beach, California, over 400 miles away from where she was taken.

[00:02:37] That still was not the end of the ordeal for either Aaron or Denise. The Vallejo Police Department and agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation proceeded to double down on treating them both like suspects rather than victims.

[00:02:50] And the media eagerly ate up the false story of two hoaxers emulating Gillian Flynn's gone girl novel which had recently been made into a popular film. The narrative of a beautiful woman pretending to be a victim while actually acting as a manipulator

[00:03:05] was simply too enticing for many journalists to pass up on, especially when they could squeeze in a reference to a hot fictional story in the headlines and chyrons. All the while, Aaron and Denise were left to deal with their trauma while under a cloud

[00:03:19] of public suspicion and legal threats from law enforcement. They made it through by sticking by one another. They also received the support of determined lawyers like Dan Russo, Amy Morton, Doug Rappaport, Lauren Switzer, Jim Wagstaff, Ken Navity and Kevin Klune.

[00:03:38] Both of their families stood by them, and Aaron's FBI agent brother even helped them navigate the complicated legal wranglings. A newly-mended detective named Misty Karoussu, who worked at the Dublin Police Department in Alameda County, conducted a dogged investigation that led to some vindication.

[00:03:55] She found that a disbarred immigration attorney named Matthew Muller had kidnapped Denise and that he had attacked other women and families as well. Ultimately, Denise and Aaron would get $2.5 million from the Vallejo Police Department for defamation. Still, this never should have happened to them.

[00:04:12] What Denise and Aaron went through represents not only an egregious failing of law enforcement, but unfortunate systemic issues that can conspire to harm victims and punish the innocent. This case is currently getting talked about thanks to the new Netflix docu-series American Nightmare.

[00:04:29] After you've watched that, you need to read the book, Victim F, from Crime Victims to Suspects to Survivors. This is the book that Aaron and Denise wrote with Nicole Egan. A book is going to be a different experience than a docu-series, one that allows for more

[00:04:46] details and nuance. I think it should be required reading from members of law enforcement agencies to drive home the perils of jumping to conclusions. In the realm of law enforcement, skepticism is prevalent. Perhaps that's even necessary. People do tell lies, sometimes outlandish ones.

[00:05:04] But what I'd call a healthy skepticism should never override basic compassion, or the strong impulse to corroborate information and check the facts. When you read Victim F, you realize that law enforcement got it into their heads that Aaron and later Denise were the enemies.

[00:05:23] Instead of simply digging into the evidence before forming definite conclusions, they let their initial assumptions carry them to a place where they sneered and harassed people who had already been through a major trauma. The investigative process should always be about following the facts. What does the evidence say?

[00:05:41] Where does it lead? Had police done that immediately, Denise would have likely been rescued and she and Aaron would have never had to go through the public shaming they received in the months and years after the abduction.

[00:05:53] We were fortunate enough to get a chance to interview Denise and Aaron recently. We talked about American nightmare and Victim F. We discussed what they went through, the details like the lead FBI agent's massive conflict of interest, their theory

[00:06:06] on possible other perpetrators and big picture changes that they want to see law enforcement take on to minimize harm in the possibility of wrongful convictions. My name is Ania Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:06:23] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is Under Suspicion. Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn on trauma, injustice and surviving their American nightmare. I'm Denise Huskins.

[00:07:28] I'm first and foremost physical therapist, but I am also a survivor of a kidnapping and multiple sexual assault. In March 2015, my husband and I woke up to a nightmare. I was kidnapped and held in captivity for two days where I was continuously drugged and raped.

[00:07:53] And Aaron went to the police for help and they just made the nightmare that much worse. They refused to look at evidence that could have rescued me. And they just tried to get Aaron to confess to my murder.

[00:08:08] I was thankfully released, but as soon as I spoke to the Belay-O police department, they said they didn't believe me when on national news to call us both hoaxers and news outlets across the world called me the real life thongirl.

[00:08:26] We lived under that for months and nothing was done to find kidnappers. And the one who held me captive attacked another family and was caught by a different police department where they did their due diligence and linked their case to ours.

[00:08:47] And that's when the truth finally came out. Yes, and I just want to say anyone who's watched American Nightmare needs to read victim F. And that's the book you did together about this disharrowing experience because it goes into such detail.

[00:09:01] And I feel like by speaking out, you're empowering other people to come forward with their stories and to understand that the police can get it wrong and the police can get it extremely wrong and actually re-traumatize and re-victimize people in situations like this. Right.

[00:09:17] Well, thank you for suggesting for people to read the book because it was really important for us to take our trauma back. We were silent for three years because we were trying to respect the legal system even though we were completely disrespected by it.

[00:09:33] We were waiting for the criminal trial, the civil case that we had against the city of Lajo for the defamation that they did. And in our silence, the narrative was taken over by anyone and everyone and everyone filled

[00:09:49] in the blanks with whatever their own beliefs and biases were. So we really wanted to clear things up and show it from our perspective and from both of our perspectives because Erin and I both lived separate but the same trauma side by side, one another.

[00:10:06] So we in our book take it from the beginning and just lay it out and let the readers live and experience it with us and really try to put them in the situation with us.

[00:10:20] Really for us, the biggest mystery was why the police believe what they believed and then handled it the way that they did. Of course in a film, docu-series that is in the true crime genre, there's still going to be

[00:10:34] that very much twisty tourney did he, did she thing which gets people really enthralled and keep viewing. And in the end they showed the important themes that we wanted people to come away with of the victim blaming and police misconduct, the misrepresentation in the media.

[00:10:58] But I think it also does just by the nature of a three part docu-series that leaves out a lot of really important details that can lead people to again come up with their own confusion.

[00:11:10] So I think of course from our perspective it would be really helpful for people to read the book to fill in those gaps. I love what the book does when you're getting both of your perspectives in there but also

[00:11:22] that of your families, like reading what they were going through while all this is happening. So I feel like I came away with a really strong overview of this from multiple perspectives and it forces you to think about the situation from the perspective of both of you, the

[00:11:35] people in it, but also what your parents are going through, what everybody, your siblings, just the incredible trauma. And I guess how were you able to sit down and unpack that together as you wrote that out? Well the book took us about three years to write.

[00:11:53] We had the benefit of processing through this with our lawyers or civil attorneys in the case and then we had a great co-op or Nikki Egan who really empowered us to write our perspectives in our words and then just help us shape it so she acted very

[00:12:08] much like almost like our daily editor and then just asked questions on how to go to kinds in the next level and next level of that. And so we basically started off writing on this as a journal.

[00:12:22] We had a basic outline of how we wanted to frame it so we put into three parts of from victims to suspects to survivors and we had written that down on a napkin at a restaurant and then we went from that framework of showing us our perspective

[00:12:39] side by side and making sure the timelines match up. And it took us a lot of effort and a lot of editing because there's so much going on that to get a cohesive narrative is the biggest challenge.

[00:12:53] And generally for myself, while I would write a chapter and it would make me feel a little sick if I read it, I figured I was kind of right in the right ballpark. It makes me get like the weird sweats and stuff that happens when you're stressed

[00:13:10] and I'm kind of in there. And that's the primary goal is to try to give people some perspective of what it's like to live through that and hopefully bring awareness to that. Those situations because if you see a headline, you don't actually know all

[00:13:28] the story and you really don't know every one story. But we see headlines and it's easier to rush to judgment and make decisions on that. I think we start seeing more details. You start realizing how misleading those headlines are or how misleading the

[00:13:41] police were because one of the questions like why did Aaron act this way? Why did Denise act this way? I think we lay out pretty clearly that we're trying to do the best we can in that situation and I would say he did quite well.

[00:13:57] So yeah, I would certainly agree. And I will just say that like, I mean, I want to impact some of the big themes in the book as it came up and you mentioned the idea of jumping to conclusions based on headlines or based on assumptions.

[00:14:10] And I wanted to talk about specifically the idea that when a woman is harmed, oftentimes it's the boyfriend or the husband. I mean, there are stats to bear that out, but I think you wanted to ask about that.

[00:14:22] Yeah, reading the book, it was really clear how you, Aaron, were affected by that and by that perspective. And I was just curious, what does it feel like to be the target and the focus of that suspicion when the person you love more than anyone else

[00:14:40] in the world is missing? Yeah, it's really difficult to describe what that feels like, because unless you've experienced it, you don't know. And there are the police unfortunately are trained in this and this is a strategy I use. And it's fairly classic read techniques that muster, detective mustard

[00:15:01] and agent French were using. And that is to psychologically pressure you into a confession. And is an effective technique to get confessions. The problem is it's also effective technique to get false confessions. And they did not look at any objective evidence as just Denise was missing

[00:15:21] and therefore she was dead. But that could also rely on a kidnapping. If she's missing, she's kidnapped. The big issue when officers are trained like this is that they believe they are human life detectors. And mustard decided from the get-go, this is what's happening.

[00:15:38] And every information funneled through him and he just gets confirmation bias and then they just pound you and pound you hour after hour, regardless of how many times you say I didn't do this. Regardless of the evidence.

[00:15:51] And you start questioning yourself because you're alone, cold in prison clothes. You've been traumatized. I mean, there are small things where I actually thought maybe I got a psychological break. And for me, I would the question gets asked like why didn't you ask for attorney earlier?

[00:16:13] I didn't want to inhibit the investigation by any means. So I think and asking for attorney that's going to delay things and my goal is to find an ease. Unfortunately, at a certain point, I just don't want me to ask for attorney because they're just not stopping.

[00:16:30] And that is the scary part because this is not the exception of this case is not what the police did. This is like standard operating procedure. The exceptions like how much I was able to tolerate with most false professions happen between four and six hours.

[00:16:46] And that we were proven innocent in such a short period of time. So this often these false accusations are wrongful convictions happen as decades later, if ever that people are exonerated and you're in a few months. So that is a truly scary thing about all this.

[00:17:05] What does the American nightmare doesn't cover is that my brother's an FBI special agent that we go into the book. So they're doing to me as a upper middle class, highly educated white person with a brother's FBI special agent.

[00:17:18] What are they doing to other people and is a tremendous, tremendous amount of pressure on you and you just want to stop. So I understand why people would falsely confess. You think I confess they stop and I'll fix it later. But unfortunately, you cannot fix it later.

[00:17:33] And on the last note about that where it's like they want. Denise is missing. It's always a boyfriend. It's always a significant other minor sense about 80 percent of time. That's the case. So unless these detectives are working mass numbers, they are getting

[00:17:49] a small sample size and they cannot they don't get trained in thinking that. So you could be that's basically one out of six times. It's a stranger abduction and there was evidence to support a stranger abduction. So they're they're making.

[00:18:03] I don't understand what they get trained in and their decision making. That's this really scary. They have so much. Aaron went into it knowing that would be considered a suspect. He just didn't think it'd be the only suspect.

[00:18:15] And as he told them what happened and it was the camera and there was evidence in the house that matched what he was telling the police, he figured, OK, I just need to tell them the truth and they'll find they'll they'll realize that I'm not a suspect.

[00:18:31] But the sad part is is they didn't evaluate the evidence. They didn't monitor his phone even though and said that the kidnappers wouldn't have you know, there's so many things that that they could have seen early on that he wasn't active.

[00:18:43] Just put their liners on and chose not to. That is a truly terrifying aspect of the story is that it's not just that they scrutinized you. It's that it just seemed like any other input that was coming in

[00:18:57] that contradicted the idea that you were, you know, lying was just dismissed out of hand, which is. Pretty shocking. One thing I wanted to ask you about was in terms of we kind of touched upon

[00:19:12] on this, but just in terms of Denise, your your captivity, would you be willing to share some details about that? And specifically around what the kidnapper Mueller told you about the organization that he was allegedly working on.

[00:19:30] The whole time in captivity was a lot to try to manage in the position I was in because, you know, being put in the trunk of a car drug told him, I'm going to take you 48 hours, not knowing exactly the details.

[00:19:48] He didn't tell me exactly what he was asking of Aaron. So I didn't really know what this was all about other than he told me that it was intended for X. And it was very elaborate, very planned out.

[00:20:01] And even in the home invasion, he would say things encouragingly like you're doing a good job. This isn't your fault. So it was confusing for me because I don't know never been in that situation. You think they're going to act violently and aggressively. And it was very procedural.

[00:20:22] So, you know, I'm taken to an unknown location and he says things to me like I don't want to dehumanize you. I'm sorry, this wasn't meant for you. I got wrong. I got the wrong intel. I was in charge of that.

[00:20:34] We're a group that was organized as kind of a black market startup company that's supposed to that can be hired to fulfill financial or personal debt. So we were hired by someone. I don't know who hired us because I'm the one in charge of watching over the captive.

[00:20:52] And I, you know, just in case I decide to back out, I can't give you any information and tells me because I wasn't intended for me. He didn't have any collateral against me to ensure I won't speak to police.

[00:21:09] So then that's what he tells me is the decision of what he says needing to have sex with me and report it. You know, so he tells me a lot of things about the organization that he's a part of.

[00:21:23] He tells me that he was in the military, that get psychological issues, can't lead a normal life. This is his way of supporting his family. You know, it was very overwhelming and I didn't really know what to do with it.

[00:21:36] I knew that there was, you know, truth in what he was saying, because some of the stuff that he's saying matched what I was living and experiencing. And I knew that some of it was lies or fabrications to make all of this

[00:21:48] even more terrifying and chaotic and, and lead me to not fight back. But at the time, it didn't matter what all the details were to me. I just needed to figure out how to get out of there alive. And it felt like he wanted to talk.

[00:22:07] He wanted me to listen. I felt like he was very on edge. Like if I fought back, that was partly what he wanted from me to like subdue or submit of screaming woman. So I just was like, okay, he's trying to psychologically manipulate me.

[00:22:24] It's like playing a game of chess and I don't know what the rules are. It's all on him and I'm just kind of taking each moment by moment. So I just felt like I needed to listen to him.

[00:22:37] And in a way, like psychologically manipulate him back to let him trust me that I'm not going to fight back. If he doesn't think that I'm going to fight back or scream, then maybe he will release me. So it just was a constant

[00:22:51] game of trying to figure out how the hell do I get out of this alive? The thing about all the details about the organization that he was a part of it was consistent with what he told Aaron, what was in the pre-reported

[00:23:03] messages that was played for Aaron, what he said to me and then what later that kidnappers had put in the email to then, you know, say that this was all real. So there was enough consistencies that I think there's some truth to two parts of it.

[00:23:20] But as far as it being like an organized sophisticated thing, I don't think it's quite sophisticated at all because he should have been caught first day and he made a lot of mistakes. They had all these procedures and that's a way to limit your own personal responsibility.

[00:23:37] Like I'm just following the rules, even though they made up the rules and you can see that even the police, they follow like certain chains of command and you do need rules, but then it takes away from your own personal

[00:23:47] responsibility because I feel like, well, the system set up this way. They set up these procedures to limit their own self-guilt. And then I believe most people think they're the good guy. So he tried to manipulate certain situations for a guy.

[00:24:04] Well, I'm not as bad as the other guys. Well, I'm not as bad as this despite doing horrific acts. Perhaps for Denise's release and the police say it's a hoax or fabrication. I wasn't actually surprised that the kidnappers wrote emails.

[00:24:21] One, they wanted credit and two, they viewed themselves as not, you know, as gentlemen, as I said, gentlemen criminals. So they didn't want to be as bad as they thought they actually were. And that's like why they're so dangerous.

[00:24:33] It's a rationalization and a lack of accountability and that they actually are patient criminals, which police do not catch patient criminals. And that's why we advocate for at least Mueller to be sentenced to life and why we keep reiterating that we know there's at least two other people

[00:24:52] because they're dangerous and they will do it again. Absolutely. That's one of the most infuriating things to read about some of the emails, the self-congratulatory tone of this group and of Mueller and just like almost it almost seems like a manipulation tactic on top of everything.

[00:25:11] Like, oh, look, we're doing things in a professional way. We're not like other criminals. You know, so just comply essentially. It's like it's creepy. So you don't believe he acted alone? No, we 100 percent know there's other people. And that's the we detailed that in the book.

[00:25:31] But when we're upstairs in the closet, I hear people rummaging through my kitchen drawers, someone else is using a drill. They saw other people, other people, legs walking. The reason walked by me. There's a car that pulled up for the house when I was in captivity

[00:25:50] and, you know, doors opening, whispering. He couldn't drive a car and be in the house at the same time. So it's just, you know, the thing that's frustrating about all of it is that there was no follow up by investigators once Mueller was caught.

[00:26:09] They like found a dummy and found recorded messages that they had played for us, that we had told them that they had played for us. But that wasn't why we thought there was more people. You know, all these other reasons were why,

[00:26:21] but they never bothered entertaining that and even pulled me that they were 98 percent sure they that he acted alone before they even went through his electronic devices. So again, they made a decision. And when I was interrogated by the FBI at the end of that,

[00:26:42] Dave Sezma told my attorney that he was 99 percent sure that I was lying and I was gone girl. So now they're 98 percent sure that he acted alone. It's like, I mean, I think I even told them like enough with this percent.

[00:26:55] Stuff like trying not to cuss it in, but just like show us the facts. Let us know how do you know? And really there was no other than them saying like, oh, well, he was kind of a loner. Yet he lived with people.

[00:27:09] He got married the day that he was sentenced for our crime. Like I mean, he had family. Like, you know, he had a lease with someone on Mary Island. Like how much of a loner can you be? Like it's so much just anyways. And there is.

[00:27:28] It was in the books we found out later, but Mola has told us that there's other people and he's afraid of them. And so he is afraid of what they would do to his family. So he also tried to use

[00:27:43] basically an insanity defense and you can't have co-conspirers and and use insanity defense. So it behooves him to say I did by myself. And and he's also as far as I understand, you don't want to be known

[00:27:59] as a snitch in prison and he's also known as a rapist. So probably there's no real reason for him to do it. And it's just to these point the same. It's the same investigators that said I killed Denise.

[00:28:14] We put my phone in airplane mode, did nothing about it. Then they said it's a hoax. Did nothing about that. Now they go yack alone. So they're like their trustworthiness is is a gutter. And so it's unfortunate we can't get the answers, but we have also seen

[00:28:30] other leads that just weren't followed up. The fact that Mueller dropped the name of Aaron's ex and would that ever dug into about how he even got that name or what's going on there? What the FBI rationalized was simply a case of mistaken identity.

[00:28:53] Like was docking us originally docking her got her name and that was it, which could be true. Why he kept going with it is the other question, especially I could kind of understand maybe in captivity going along with it to somehow

[00:29:20] manipulate situation with me, but then even further in the emails to say over and over again, yes, this was intended for her. I'm not going to say why. It just really the emails were an opportunity for them to kind of say like

[00:29:41] you know, we we manipulated the situation and kind of give themselves more credit. So, you know, it's just the unfortunate thing that we just don't have the power to investigate it further. And it's a big question. Yeah. And on top of that, we just know that.

[00:30:04] That's my test and everything looked at. So they had an investigation more than just like, oh, he's a sexual predator and that and that's it. And I realize the sexual predator and he can be other things, but these

[00:30:19] are very concrete thinkers who lack any sort of mental flexibility. And they also rather have this case be closed and contain because it was a catastrophic failure at every level and only miss the.

[00:30:35] Careless who say dumb, so they want to take credit for it and then wrap it up. And because they care about protecting themselves more than they care about protecting the public, at least they have shown that in this case.

[00:30:45] Well, and the fact too that she was the intended target and has had a prior relationship with the lead FBI agent who was handling that case. It gives reason to believe they didn't want to explore that because it makes his conflict even more egregious where they're attacking

[00:31:07] and going after Aaron, justifying it, saying it's always the boyfriend, the ex-boyfriend, someone involved intimately in their life. Well, by that standard, he too should be ruled out as a suspect. So who's ruling him out himself?

[00:31:22] You know, so that's where it gets really murky and makes it makes you wonder like, OK, well, maybe it just wasn't explored because he just wanted to not be involved. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between the

[00:31:41] ex and the FBI agent investigating the case? Yes. So my ex was previously married before her and I started dating. As far as my understanding of the end of her relationship is that she had a sexual relationship with agent Sezma, who's a lead case agent.

[00:31:59] And that was a catalyst for her marriage and the end of course. And then at some point, apparently agent Sezma tried to rekindle their relationship when we are and I had been dating for a few months. She supposedly rebuffed those advances, but she's an unreliable narrator.

[00:32:23] So obviously his relationship is far more than far more issue than anything else. And it clouds all his like that decision clouds every judgment going forward. So I can't we can't trust anything that he did because he's making a decision like that. And and on top of that,

[00:32:42] he's required to disclose this conflict of interest. So we don't know if he actually did that to the supervisors. If he did either he diminished their actual relationship or if he'd said the whole truth, those supervisors said that's OK for him to say on this case.

[00:32:57] And this is another part about the tragedy of this is that it's a whole criminal justice system, so people will see agent Sezma and they'll see Detective Muthard and the fury and they should they're the point leads.

[00:33:11] But there are supervisors above them that should be being the guard rails and deciding, hey, why is this guy in this case? Agent Sezma has no special skills to be on this case. It could be any agent.

[00:33:23] And then so his perception of conflict of interest or his actual conflict of interest ruins their credibility and ruins the credibility of the investigation. The case and that's what's ultimately really frustrating because we've reported this to supervisors, we told people, hey, this is a problem.

[00:33:38] Everyone said it's OK. Or as Doug put in American Nightmare, they told them it was quote unproblematic and is obviously a massive problem. Yeah, I it's funny like in the true crime space, it's like the FBI is often looked at maybe in some cases,

[00:34:00] rightfully so as the adults in the room and there's kind of that prestige. And I mean, your brother's an FBI agent. So I think you probably had that to going into this. But I thought it was really interesting, Denise,

[00:34:14] your attorney Doug Rappaport one point when you were like, oh, the FBI is getting involved. That's great. And he was kind of like, yeah. I mean, kind of like, wow, he was kind of on the money there. What happened with the FBI here?

[00:34:26] How has that altered your perceptions? And like, I mean, I don't know. It's just shocking. What are your thoughts on that? For me, when they was in interrogation room, they told me the FBI is involved. I was excited.

[00:34:37] I know my brother and my brother is one of the smartest people I know. And I know met his colleagues who are incredibly intelligent. The type of people that you view as FBI agents. Now, not to say that the case agents aren't intelligent,

[00:34:50] but they also have blinders on tunnel vision. But it's scary to think you expect the FBI to be better, but they just jumped on the bandwagon. So they almost they act like the same just with a different badge. And

[00:35:09] the what people need to understand is usually two case agents and all information goes to them so you can have other FBI agents going through computers, collecting evidence, doing their job. But then it's a case agents decision on what's important and what's not.

[00:35:25] So that all funnels down to agent Cessna and agent Walter in this case, agent Cessna being the senior and the lead investigator. So he is he is the he is the endpoint of all this information. And that's now he just jumped on board with it.

[00:35:42] And then that's what's really scary. And that's far why he's turning Doug was like, is it a good thing that they're involved? Because he has seen them railroad people and they're the FBI. So if the FBI says something and it's

[00:35:58] personally like that's not true, what are people going to believe? They're going to believe the FBI agent. Aaron, you've mentioned a couple of times that your brother is actually an agent of the FBI. Can you talk about that and the roles you played in supporting you and helping

[00:36:14] navigate you through this whole difficult process? And this is part of reason why the FBI feel obligated to keep sharing and bringing awareness that we are we are the lucky ones out of this where we weren't and we're not in prison, we're alive, we're together.

[00:36:34] We had the ability to pay for high level criminal defense attorneys. We spent one hundred and forty thousand dollars on criminal defense attorneys and we weren't even charged with a crime. And I have a brother who could be

[00:36:48] a resource to help us navigate this and give us an understanding of what is going on. And what's protocol? What should have happened with a kid? Not like who should have. Should I have been my name been out there as soon as they

[00:37:05] Aaron went into report or should they have been trying to communicate? You know, things like that where it's just like, is this normal? And yeah, so it was really helpful to get a better understanding

[00:37:16] of what it should be, what it shouldn't be and then how it actually fits. And even just going through the legal system, I could call my brother and go, what does this mean? I mean, there's when you read a sort of legal document, he's also a termit.

[00:37:31] So he could explain what are these procedures and just to have that information as. Portrait victims, we they just treat us like a problem. We didn't have many people to go to for like what is a preliminary hearing?

[00:37:47] What are these things that if you're not in the system, you don't really understand and. Try not get emotional. Was a really, really hard time for him as well. And and so I'm like just I'm internally grateful for. Like his support throughout this.

[00:38:12] Yeah, the bonds between you and your families like really come across in the book, especially of like, you know, stepping up to help you mean, just the fact that you were victims of a crime and then had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to basically.

[00:38:27] You know, prove that or have have attorneys advocating for you is just so appalling, but the fact that your families were behind you just really comes across in this work. I wanted to ask you about the attorneys in this who kind of helped you through

[00:38:43] this process, how is this sort of impacted? How you view the importance of having legal representation when you're dealing with law enforcement, even a situation where frankly, you shouldn't need it. Well, the must absolutely. Yeah, if we speak to law enforcement for whatever reason, we're calling our attorney.

[00:39:04] And I it's sad to say that I think we should and anyone should because you do really need a rough in the room. You don't realize until you're in that situation or even afterwards that police are legally allowed to lie to you. And that's part of the re-technique.

[00:39:19] They call it a ruse or whatever name you want to call it. A lie is a lie, but they do it in a way to manipulate you or to manipulate the situation. And, you know, even the lie detector test, it's been proven to not be scientifically

[00:39:32] backed up, but they still use it when I walked in with Doug. I overheard him speaking to law enforcement about, oh, you know, we want to have her take a lie detector and back my head. I'm like, OK, I can do that.

[00:39:44] And he's like, absolutely not a you joking and kind of laughed at them. And was like, no, you know, thank God I had him with me because seeing what how Aaron was treated, seeing, you know, on other documentaries and things afterwards,

[00:39:58] how victims of sexual assault are treated and interrogated and then charged with a crime. I mean, I just I don't know emotionally, psychologically in that position, after two days of captivity, what I would have done said believed,

[00:40:14] you know, after if I didn't have an attorney there, just to make sure that they're not going to be in a situation where they're not going to be treated and I don't know what their thinking went, how they should go.

[00:40:30] And also on top of that, to have someone keep record, like with the. My interrogations were recorded. We I had to fight to get recording of Denise's interrogation by mustard. The FBI won't turn over question by SESMA.

[00:40:49] And we are we have read through the police report and people might find it shocking, mustard lies in the police report. And so you have if you were in a suit, a civil suit or a criminal suit, it's your word versus a detective.

[00:41:05] And the detectives know how to shape the narrative to get a conviction. So you need an attorney to be like, I kept these notes. This is what actually happened. So you can at least have some sort of counter punch

[00:41:17] is a system is geared to is overwhelmingly in the favor of the prosecution and the police is not a fair fight. So speaking of law enforcement, I did want to single out Detective Misty Karusu.

[00:41:36] Can you speak about what her involvement in this meant to you and what it was like getting to meet her eventually? How does you bring up her name? Have to hold back tears. Oh, yeah. At the time when Mueller was caught,

[00:41:57] I wasn't really reading a lot of reports on anything because I just couldn't handle it. So I didn't know the details of exactly how he was connected and and even that it was a woman that connected the case.

[00:42:13] And we were just trying to get our lives back together. But it was a couple years later after Mueller was sentenced federally that she reached out to our family and she said that she would like to meet us if we were

[00:42:25] open to it. And I immediately just broke down because that whole time in captivity, like you're I'm imagining like, you know, SWAT team breaking down doors and saving me and rescuing me or like at least,

[00:42:46] you know, getting some kind of empathy from law enforcement as I'm recounting the details of my rapes and just something different. So then to finally have someone in law enforcement that I couldn't. I didn't just think but like I could really call a hero was just.

[00:43:11] Can't even describe how important that was for me, for both of us. And and then talking to her and learning more about what she did and what she went through, we met with her and her husband.

[00:43:26] He was also in law enforcement and and hearing like the tireless nights that she was up trying to figure this out and the pushback that she got and some colleagues of like you're spending too much time on this. Forget it. We got the guy like let's move on.

[00:43:43] And she's like, no, no, no, no, like there's another victim out there. You know, it's just yeah, I mean, we owe our lives to her. I can't figure enough. You talk about how their police have been out there breaking down doors, doing everything they could to help you.

[00:44:02] And of course, ultimately what they did was they lied about you and defamed you and you actually filed a lawsuit against them. Can you talk about the suit and what it was like to fight that battle? It's scary to file a suit because there are laws. The laws.

[00:44:21] That fit the police dramatically. And if we had lost the suit, we would have to pay the police legal fees. And that's hundreds of thousands of dollars I can't have. So it's a big risk to do that. But it's also important because

[00:44:43] they shouldn't be allowed to do just anything. They don't have community from everything they do. And we knew that they they were just making it up and they ruined our reputations, made us prize in the community and made the community unsafe.

[00:45:03] Like everything they did hurt everyone and only helped themselves. And then when we're doing the civil suit, they continue to attack us. They asked if if they wanted in discovery, every communication that Denise I had with Mueller up to six months prior to the home invasion,

[00:45:25] which there is none, which obviously there's none. It's maybe standard. They can go at standard discovery just in case. But at the same time, they said they investigated this fully. So if we had communications with Mueller,

[00:45:37] when they actually have evidence of that and then during our civil case, we find out it's a shock in me bear what they actually did. And later on, we find out they actually destroyed evidence. So they play by different set of rules and it was

[00:45:56] encouraging to have a judge, Judge Troy Nunley rule in our favor to see someone actually see the system work in some way. You know, a judge objectively evaluate the evidence and his ruling was damning for the police and hopefully helpful for people going forward

[00:46:17] to help restore a little bit of faith into the into the system that there are eventually there are guardrails. But it takes like that level. I don't know. Again, that's why we say we're the lucky ones. We don't we actually get to push back and do these things.

[00:46:34] Many big downs of this do not. Well, and the only reason we were able to do a civil suit is because they went out and so they went out publicly and live and our civil attorney said if they didn't do that, you wouldn't have a case.

[00:46:50] And there's a reason why we can't do that. Like you can't sue law enforcement for doing a bad job and for treating you badly because again, the law is in their favor. But the only reason we were able to was because they said what they said.

[00:47:03] And so it's it's sad and scary because it wasn't just what they said publicly. It was everything else that made that re victimize us and made our trauma that much worse. So it's just sad because it makes you realize how often this is happening.

[00:47:19] And they're just getting away with it. And on top of that is misty connected moeller to our case is the main reason why we we're trying to contact civil attorneys. No one would call us back, even if my brother would reach out to him or his

[00:47:35] law school friends would reach out to people they knew and they go like, well, how do you really know they didn't do this? Right. And I know personally like they did not do this and they went and take our meetings in one in an entertainment.

[00:47:48] It was one firm that and entertain it before moeller's release. And they probably still won't take our case because it's a high risk for them. So Moeller being connected to our case proved our innocence. As Doug put it, we're not that we're not guilty.

[00:48:04] We're actually innocent and then that puts so much more pressure and helped us so that those are all these unique factors that allow us to do that, which is, which is scary. Everything's stacked in one side. Yeah. And I think just to note, you know,

[00:48:21] Misty is clearly a hero in this, but there are so many other heroes and that doesn't come across as much or if at all in the docuseries. But I think you'll reading the book, you'll see. I mean, our lawyers really are heroes.

[00:48:37] The fact that they were getting criticized from their legal colleagues. Why would you take this case? It's been really your reputation. Why are you going out and standing, you know, putting your neck on the line for these people when you don't know?

[00:48:51] And and both of our attorneys were like, nope, we believe them. And this is this is why we do this and we're going to go out there and we're going to fight them. And you see that in the press conferences that they give right at the time

[00:49:02] of the kidnapping and after I'm released and how hard they go out there and fight for us and Doug had, and that's another thing that's on docuseries. He had a two day old baby that, you know, I mean, and his wife,

[00:49:17] like another hero, just like, I mean, I'm a mom now, you know, like two days after you come home from the hospital with your little baby and and your, you know, your husband is helping a woman who's just like broken

[00:49:32] and she's like, you know what, honey, I got it. Like you help her. She needs it. Yeah. So there's just, you know, as as horrible as some of the other situations with people in law enforcement is there's so many incredible moments

[00:49:46] with people along the way that, you know, it's not all bad, but it takes a lot from a lot of different people to like get the next step and ultimately to get to where we are today.

[00:49:59] So yeah, ultimately I say it as a book about the best of people and the worst of people because you do see I love that moment when I think you first met Doug and then you hear someone ride off on a motorcycle and it's him. Yeah.

[00:50:15] Yeah. On the side, Doug was really bummed that that wasn't in the doffy series. It should have been in the doffy series. I know he was like, oh, I didn't put the wheelie in. Well, you know, I didn't say I just but yeah, it's just there are

[00:50:30] a lot of incredible moments that are hard to believe but are really happened. I'm so appreciative to you both, though, for speaking out about this and something you said earlier really resonated with me just about how in your position,

[00:50:46] you went through so much, but you were still able to fight it. And so what must people in more marginalized circumstances go through when they're up against something like this? I'm wondering just speaking from a macro perspective,

[00:50:59] what can be done with law enforcement, big changes, big ideas in order to really truly embody more of a, you know, a trauma centric, trauma focus. I mean, these are things I think you said at once in American Nightmare, Denise just like, this is the fucking FBI.

[00:51:17] They should know better. Pardon my French. But you know, it's like there's things that we know about that are just not being implemented here and it just created just a horrific circumstances here, but like what kind of safeguards and parameters could be deployed here

[00:51:32] to avoid situations like this? I mean, it's hard because it's you think, like that they do know better because at least with these documentaries coming out and these things being exposed, the public is becoming more aware.

[00:51:50] And I feel like in general people know better, but it's true how it's implemented and how they're trained. They have these trainings, I think my understanding is that they do, but how that carries over into their belief system and how

[00:52:08] they handle cases is obviously there's a disconnect for some people. I think one thing that would be really helpful is more diversity in law enforcement and specifically more female law enforcement and and their perspectives. Well, as far as interrogations, everything needs to be recorded.

[00:52:31] And that should be you cannot have written statements that they shouldn't write up reports, but you cannot have that be the sole decision maker. So everything should be recorded. The police shouldn't lie. They're going to lie. The Supreme Court said it's OK for them to lie.

[00:52:49] That's most likely not going to happen, even though in every other development country, they do not allow police to lie. Law enforcement should be trained not to lie because it just makes for a lazy investigation. The traditional read technique needs to go away.

[00:53:07] There are better models like the peace model, whereas more journalistic approach in your you are gathering information. The problem is that police decide if they are telling the truth or not, and that is not their job. Their job is to gather information and they should be like

[00:53:22] so if they're making decisions, if you're trustworthy or if you're telling the truth, they've already closed avenues of investigation. So they if they went to go in like the peace model deciding I will gather information and go from there, so going like he crossed his arms.

[00:53:42] Therefore, he's being deceptive or he looked to the left. So he's using the right side of his brain that's a creative side. And that's not truthful. All this pseudo science bullshit should just go away and we there are people advocating for this.

[00:53:57] There are law enforcement, there are officers who are implementing this and probably more importantly, it needs to transition away from us versus them. You know, you're either on one side of the thin blue line or the other. And that's not the case.

[00:54:12] We are not against law enforcement or for accountability. And I would hope other officers would be the same. And we should be looking at this as a global issue within our community, not a we're on one side of fence or the other because

[00:54:29] we're not here just to say this is wrong, where we want to help. And what's been encouraging is we've got people from law enforcement reaching out to us saying that they become aware of this case, that they made themselves are frustrated with it.

[00:54:45] And that means a lot when we hear from people who are doing the work day in and day out, it is a hard job. There's no question about it, but they can do better when we know that there's better results.

[00:54:58] Absolutely. I mean, for me, it's like how hard is it to be skeptical of everything, but compassionate and also check the evidence? Look where the evidence goes. That wasn't done here. It was just immediately jump on Aaron and then immediately jump on you Denise when you were found.

[00:55:14] And it's like it was an us versus them thing. And that's very clear in the book just from the jump. And this is a question that I wanted to ask because the media played a huge role

[00:55:27] in what happened to you and in the public shaming that came afterwards. And I'm a reporter. I can be very idealistic about the media reading about stuff like this just makes me sick to my stomach because it was like almost like blood

[00:55:39] in the water and the sharks coming out almost. How can the media do better? I mean, like, you know, that's almost too big a question to ask here because it just seems like everything went wrong with that.

[00:55:51] It was just taking the police at their word completely not asking for additional context, not looking into things when people are getting emails. But what are your thoughts about how the media in general can be more sensitive and frankly accurate around kind of media sensation cases like this?

[00:56:07] One of the problems is the police or the media needs access to the police. So if they go against them, the police will shun them and that hurts their careers. And in general, people like to believe in the institutions.

[00:56:22] The promise are not make a film for the police and they need to they need to get other sources. And also the way they write they wrote about this was we did the hoax or

[00:56:33] there was no like there was no like allegedly or the police said the framing was this is then stone, but then one more is exposed as one of perpetrators. It's like he allegedly did this. He allegedly did that. I mean, people are still reporting the alleged kidnapping.

[00:56:50] Like the guy pled guilty both federally and state. There's all this evidence. It's not alleged. It's not an alleged assault. It's fucking happen. So it's it's an even now with the popularity of the docu series. People are still reporting the gone girl case.

[00:57:08] It's not the fucking gone girl case. I'm not gone girl. And if you read our book from start to finish, again, the docu series is framed in a way to go, who done it? Oh my gosh, is she gone girl?

[00:57:18] And that's, you know, we've had our own process of accepting how that's done. But it has the end point. Anyways, but at least with our book, you get to see from start to finish that there's really no similarity to control at all.

[00:57:37] So having that kind of be connected to me and that's what I'm known for for the rest of my life, that's my legacy is really sad, but I think that just taking a pause, it's, you know, we live in the era

[00:57:56] of like internet and clicks and likes and boom, boom, boom. I mean, even at our our sentencing against with Mueller was sent in federally and we spoke and did give our victim impact statement, I mean, the judge hardly like cleared the court and reported we're

[00:58:12] running out to report on it. You know, so it's just the sensitivity, you know, I think there's a dehumanization of stories and symbols of people rather than actual human beings and their suffering. And I just thought that moving forward,

[00:58:34] they can see that, try to implement that in their reporting a little bit more and realize even if it's someone who did something wrong, they're still going through the worst moment of their life and it's going to be

[00:58:48] magnified for the world to see and it's just it's it's sad and traumatic and shouldn't be laughed at and scoffed at and made as a joke. So. And also what's greatly important for media to understand is if they cover a case,

[00:59:09] it increases the likelihood of a false activation or wrongful conviction. Right. So the so even chief, the chief of police for Vallejo is deposition said, well, we're getting handed by the media, we need to tell him something and they are in the police

[00:59:24] are human. So he's like, let's say a thing that's easiest and get them off my off our backs. Now, he could just said the best case is ongoing, but then he would have to field more questions. Now he's not exactly that he is what he is.

[00:59:39] I'm not going to, but if media needs to understand if they're covering a case, that increases the likelihood of pointing the people who are closest to the police. So I'm at the station, which I'm like, well, he's probably did.

[00:59:51] Like they want quick answers and the rush to judgment is a huge problem. And just because you're first doesn't mean you're right. And that's like what we rely on journalists to do is to investigate a little bit more.

[01:00:04] Slow down, like let the trolls on Twitter say that it does not need to be journalists doing that. Well said. And I get skeptical because I get I get jaded because I feel like I see this and

[01:00:18] I'm like, oh, Gone Girls like a big movie then, you know, like, let's let's loop that in. That's a better story than we don't really know what's going on. And we're going to see what happens going forward. We're going to monitor this.

[01:00:30] It's like in the rush to judgment, but also the rush to get the best story. There are narrative arises and then the genies out of the bottle that can't be taken back and people have a responsibility to really be careful about how they frame

[01:00:44] things even even a headline can convey something. You know, it's like it's subtle, but it's it it leaves the reader or the viewer with an impression of like these people are not to be trusted or, you know,

[01:00:57] and that's totally inappropriate when it's a breaking story and the facts are not known and things are not adding up. And there's also social media. You wrote about how even you see your friends sharing articles about the case. And of course, other people are sharing articles.

[01:01:13] They're making comments. You're going out in public and just living your life and getting recognized and harassed, things like the Book of Mormon saying what what is it like to face that sort of harassment from strangers? Gee, it's horrible. Yeah, it's like physically. You know, we.

[01:01:37] We were faced with a life or death situation. We get out of it alive and now we're completely exposed to God knows who and what. And, you know, people reach out to you on social media and say the worst possible thing, death threat.

[01:01:53] You don't know who is going to think, well, I'm going to take this in my hands if the police aren't going to do anything and and and, you know, get justice by attacking us. So we just never fully felt safe along with that.

[01:02:09] We know the kidnappers are out there. We know that the police are trying to convict us and put us in jail. We're like, we didn't feel safe anywhere. And so that's what I mean. It's like the modern day equivalent of throwing stones in the center of the town.

[01:02:26] It's just we were just forgetting, beaten left and right and still trying to heal and restore our lives. And we just felt sick, like literally just stick 100 percent of the time. Now, part part is in a digital age that if you were misrepresented, like or

[01:02:48] defamed, like we were back today, you can move towns, you can start over. You have now you have a digital footprint. People can find you and and there is no escaping that and being I mean, it feels as think at their own micro level.

[01:03:03] If someone spread a lie about you to your friends, how devastating that would be. And then to find out other people piling on them to have people from around the world pile onto you, like so we that is it's awful.

[01:03:17] This is a horrible experience and it's stuff that people wouldn't say to your face. And I hope when people read our book, you see the series that they they stop the rush to judgment because as we just

[01:03:33] mentioned, you can read a headline, get outraged and then find that person and have your keyboard keyboard courage. But it's more important to say, hey, I don't know enough about this. Like and why am I, you know, why am I going to get out of this?

[01:03:48] And maybe maybe if I remember, hey, there was a case back in 2015 where they said it was all made up and that was wrong. I should just hold off and say, I don't know enough and I don't need to add to any more suffering.

[01:04:01] Hopefully that's a bus that people get from our book. Yeah, it's very beautifully said and also beautifully put in the book and just this kind of idea that not everyone needs to weigh in on everything. And as you said, like you could see something and be understandably

[01:04:16] upset of like, oh, this person must have done a horrible thing. And then a few years later turns out, no, they didn't. It was it was why and you've gone and added to their pain and looking back.

[01:04:26] Like, how can you be proud of yourself after doing something like that? Like what people put more energy into love and empathy and supporting other humans rather than I get there's news reports of things that are devastating and make sense to feel outraged about it.

[01:04:47] But what do you do without outrage? Are you going to then go on the computer and attack? Maybe hold back from that and put the energy of love out there. And I think that that could really go far if more of us. Absolutely.

[01:05:06] One thing I'm curious about is the documentary that now a lot of people are talking about it. Actually, we've gotten a lot of contact from people who are either in true crime or even in law enforcement who are talking about how appalled they

[01:05:20] are about what you went through. But there's also this idea that by putting yourselves out there, is that re-traumatizing it all and how do you balance taking care of yourselves at a time like this with also trying to advocate for others

[01:05:33] and put out your story so that other people can understand this better? So how do you balance that? We are still figuring it out. We. Yeah, it's complicated. It's tricky. You know, we've had so like just a huge outpouring of love and support right now with the docuSeries.

[01:05:55] I mean, it's just incredible and it's still. Exposing and leaves us a little vulnerable. And for me, you know, physically, my body doesn't know how to differentiate the two things. So I my body is still processing a lot of that deep trauma and I'm

[01:06:19] we're having a hard time sleeping and I feel sick and can't really eat. You know, but I mean, thank God we have each other to lean on. Think how we have our two sweet little girls like they I mean,

[01:06:32] what a gift to just pull yourself out of some of this stuff and just see really life in action, pure joy and silliness. So that's certainly a help and our friends and family have always been a huge help

[01:06:47] to lean on, you know, so we're just yeah, if you're just trying to figure it out. But and we're we're both physical therapists. We're working again and in our patients helping our patients. Helpful for us because so much the last few years have been like about us

[01:07:06] and what we went through and you start feeling like it's always about you in a way. And are you helpful to other people or are you like too broken? In this case, now people were nine years removed, but still a lot of exposure.

[01:07:23] So being able to go work and help someone else and do that and get like a good way to compartmentalize this a little bit is like it's helpful because that's what we originally connected us like our like love for this profession and all it entails.

[01:07:39] And so being able to do that to something we trained a long time and work hard to do is rewarding and helpful in this. But like I think to say, it's been a lot and overwhelmingly positive. It's just a lot. So it's yeah, that's just a lot.

[01:07:58] Of course, another way you're helping people, frankly, just by sharing your story. And again, I can't recommend the book highly enough. I know there's people out there who've seen the docu series. It might have questions and they might want more details and it's all in the book

[01:08:14] and you have complete control of the narrative. It's just it's very helpful. And you've been talking about how healing is the process and that you're still working on it. I wonder if you'd have any words of advice to people who've gone through traumatic

[01:08:32] episodes also and may not be as far along in that healing process as you guys are. I think it's always important to remember there is hope and it's not it's not a straight line forward. There's going to be triggers. Some of

[01:08:50] my first triggers happened nine months after the kidnapping and part of my was helpful to have a therapist to consult with because I was scared me. Like, shouldn't I be getting better? She was telling me too that, you know, this is actually part of the healing.

[01:09:06] You were in shock for these nine months. You needed to get your life in order now that you have stability in your life, your body is able to finally process it. Just having that awareness and understanding was like, OK, I'm not losing my mind.

[01:09:19] You know, when you start to learn in time, what triggers you, what makes you feel safe and unsafe? And then you can start to shape things and enter situations that might be a little triggering in a way that you can start to develop strategies to manage it.

[01:09:38] Finding things that just to help you help ground you and give you joy. Nature was a big thing in music or professions, trying to find ways to help other people. You know, there was art I was painting for a little while and expressing myself creatively, writing, process it.

[01:10:01] You know, so I think there's so many wonderful ways to find healing and therapy and it's kind of a trial and error. Some things work back then, other things work better now. So it's like a constantly evolving thing.

[01:10:15] And I think the biggest thing for people is to always believe in yourself. There's plenty of times where I'm like, I can't do this. I can't handle this. Like, I don't know how to move forward. And what's really special about being human is we're incredibly resilient.

[01:10:32] And yeah, if you can find love and support from other people to help give you strength in your times of weakness and it's OK to have a bad day, it's OK. Not be OK. That was a big learning thing.

[01:10:47] I could probably talk for a long time about it, but those are just some. Some things. Therapy was tremendously helpful and having someone who has expertise to help give you some perspective. I would that's definitely like a must, I would say. And yeah, it's very windy road.

[01:11:09] And I was saying, some days are it's a bad day and that's OK. And then other days might start off poorly and kind of get the engine going. And then you buy a little bit of that joy.

[01:11:25] It's going to come in little waves and anything can kind of latch on to that like that little moment and try expand that little by little. We'll start resetting. And what I work with a lot of clients, you had chronic pain,

[01:11:42] you know, decades of chronic pain, that's its own debilitation and it negatively has major impact on them. So we talk a lot about the most important story is a story to tell yourself and that story can always be rewritten and edited and things that maybe work

[01:11:57] can get cut out or revised because that worked for that period of time. But doesn't mean it needs to work forever. And so we just try to rewrite the story in different ways. So it has been so wonderful to talk to you both.

[01:12:13] I'm wondering, is there anything we didn't ask about or that you wanted to get into that we didn't really cover enough that you wanted to mention or stress? Do you think it's important for our listeners to understand going forward? I think we talked about. We covered most.

[01:12:29] Yeah, I appreciate you asking about the healing part that's really important for us to discuss. I just realized I said love and support them. Maybe. But it's about that. That's not here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, yeah, we appreciate it. Yeah, those were thoughtful questions. We appreciate that.

[01:12:50] Thank you so much, Amuse, an incredibly thoughtful book. And we just appreciate that you are putting yourselves out there and speaking on these issues because they're ultimately some maybe some of the most important issues within true crime and sort of policing law enforcement,

[01:13:07] our justice system, how we treat people in those processes. And I think this gets at the heart of a lot of problems. And I'm so sorry for what you went through, but I'm also just so grateful

[01:13:18] that you shouldn't have had to be this strong to go through this and then keep doing this work and talking about it. But I'm very appreciative that you are. So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. We really appreciate that. And we felt.

[01:13:33] And I have obviously thought about this over the years, but we knew what our case represent or some themes that seem almost more in the zeitgeist now that they were in 2015. I think there's a more awareness and more of a

[01:13:50] viewer appetite to see some changes in how some of the stuff is presented. And our MP are just more aware of some of these defendants laws. So we're just trying to do our best to keep that going forward.

[01:14:04] We want to sincerely thank Denise and Aaron for not only speaking to us, but for writing victim F and putting into words the trauma they went through in the hopes of eliciting change from law enforcement and protecting other survivors.

[01:14:20] We would really strongly recommend reading victim F so you can get that wherever you buy your books and will be including a link in our show notes. I'd say it's required reading for anyone who's interested in American nightmare. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

[01:14:37] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon,

[01:14:57] that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet. We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

[01:15:20] who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook.

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