9/11: The Search for Justice: Part Four: The Daughters

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[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_05] I'm Anya, and today we're going to interview two women who lost their fathers in the 9-11 attacks.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_04] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, violence, and suicide.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_05] On September 11th, 2001, 2,977 people died in the attacks. Murder victims, all. 2,753 of those deaths were in New York City in the attacks at the World Trade Center. 184 were at the Pentagon. And then finally, 40 people with Flight 93. Since then, 9,677 people have died of a 9-11-related illness.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04] This scope is unimaginable. But the dead are not the only ones to consider here. Those thousands of victims left thousands of surviving loved ones behind. Family members. All grappling with the loss to this day.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_05] That concept is at the heart of the new documentary, Daughters of 9-11. That airs on Friday, September 11th, 2026, at 9 p.m. Eastern. It will also be available on Paramount Plus, streaming on demand, or on your local CBS affiliate, for premium subscribers, and available the following day for essential subscribers. This documentary is remarkable. It follows two women who both lost their fathers in the attacks, Elizabeth Miller and Jessica Trant.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04] Liz's father, Douglas Miller, was a New York City firefighter. Jess's father, Daniel Trant, worked at Cantor Fitzgerald on the 104th floor of the North Tower at the World Trade Center. The documentary captures their close bond and the differences in opinion they have over what they want the outcome of this case to be.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_05] We had the privilege of talking with Liz and Jess. They spoke with us about their fathers, two pretty amazing dads. They talked about how the loss changed their lives, how they processed their grief, their differing viewpoints on what should happen next, where they agree, and how we can all help them in the fight for transparency. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_04] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_05] And this is 9-11, The Search for Justice, The Daughters.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_05] So, Liz and Jess, thank you so much for joining me today on The Murder Sheet. We really appreciate it. Thank you for having us. Before we get started talking about what we're here to talk about today, could you just tell me maybe a little bit about yourselves?

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01] So, my name is Elizabeth Miller. I was six years old when my dad died on 9-11. I live in a very small town, which I adore. And I'm also the project director for a very small, as well, nonprofit, September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrow.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00] And I am Jessica Trant. I was 19 when my dad passed away. I was a sophomore at Pace University. I lived in Northport, Long Island. I'm now a nutritionist. My dad passed away at 40. And at 40, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Three years out. Healthy now. But, yeah. And now I live in Massachusetts, where I was born.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_05] Before we get into what happened, can you tell, one after the other, maybe just tell me a bit about your dads, Douglas and Daniel, and just what they were like as people and what you remember about them.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01] My dad was a fireman. He joined the department in 1995. But just an overall fun, loving family man who did a lot and was really present in his community as well. So in addition to working full-time for the FDNY, he was a chief at the Millrift Fire Department as well locally. Growing up, I heard so many stories of, oh, you know, Dougie Miller did this. Dougie Miller did that. He helped me with the roof.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm like, I'm not really sure how he had time because we were just sitting on the couch watching Ghostbusters or Cast Away. So for the short period of time that I had him in my life, I feel like it was really packed with a lot of fun memories.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00] I can't say that my father was a Mr. Fix-It. You know, he did other things. But my dad, he came from a big Irish Catholic family. He was the seventh of nine. He was a big basketball player. He was drafted by the Boston Celtics in 1984. He was the last pick. And that was a big draft year. That was like Jordan, Stockton, Akeem Olajuwon. And then good old Danny Trant, Irish boy.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00] He got cut and then he went and played in Ireland for the Irish national team. And when he came back, he ended up working at the district attorney's office and met my mom. And when he met her, he said, that's the woman I'm going to marry. And my father was not impulsive by any means. So marrying my mother after three months was a very impulsive thing. But it was love at first sight. I don't do anything impulsive. It takes me about three months to decide what I want for dinner.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00] So it's crazy to think that they fell in love that quickly. But he was definitely a rules man because he came from a military family. And he's the type that when he said, you know, your name, you didn't say, yeah, you came down the stairs and you said yes. If he gave you a look, you knew you were in trouble. If he said jump, you didn't say how high you just jumped. But he was also very comedic.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00] He would win karaoke contests for singing the stylistics. The sad part is I was 19. So I mourn the fact that I didn't get to know him as an adult. He got a job through basketball, becoming a bond trader. And we moved from Massachusetts to New York through that. And we grew up on Long Island. And one thing that I always say is how much my parents really love each other.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00] And I was really lucky to see how in tune they were. I used to get annoyed because my parents, my mom would call my dad constantly throughout the day. It was like five, six times a day. She never disciplined. My dad was a disciplinary. So she'd be calling him from work. And he's like, I'll deal with you kids when I get home, which is another reason why when he was in the towers, when they got hit, he called her. I always say, I think it wasn't just to call and say goodbye to her. I think he needed that too, you know, to comfort him.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00] But yeah, he was very funny and just a calming force, you know. And I think at 19, losing that safety net, that person that you turn to, it was hard, deeply missed. But I couldn't really, I wasn't ready to grieve him at 19. I couldn't really process the fact that somebody could be taken away in such a horrific way.

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[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_05] Whatever you feel comfortable with and whatever level of detail you feel comfortable with. Can you just tell me a little bit about how you respectively learned what was happening that day and kind of just talk me through that day a little bit?

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So for us it wasn't unusual for my dad to not come home. So within the fire department like the shifts it's not like a you know a 7 to 3 or a 9 to 5. So him not coming home wasn't I think a shock to like my system because it was something I was used to. However that day we always like joke and make light but I lost a tooth on September 11th and I actually just found the certificate. I'll have to show you a picture. Tooth fairy?

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01] No it was like a certificate from school and it's like Elizabeth Miller lost her tooth 9-11-2001. Oh my god. And we really laugh later like oh you know I lost a tooth. What a day. But um my mom had picked us up pretty early from school which was unusual and I had said hey mom like towers like a plane hit towers in the city. And she was like I know Elizabeth.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01] And my mom's like super easy going very calm cool collective and so it was very weird that she even was speaking to me in such a curt manner. And being the oldest I was very like attuned to her emotion just always. I always say I'm the typical oldest child. I'm very nosy. I eavesdrop. I put my you know nose where it doesn't belong. So I always I think knew and comprehended a bit more.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01] But people then were of course at the house bringing dinner and sitting around kind of waiting for news. And I think that's of course when I was like okay well something's going on. On the television screen on the news there was that threat level bar at the bottom like that terror threat level. And I like vividly remember sitting on this like ottoman watching that on our like nice old TV. But we didn't really have like finality in a sense until that Friday. A fireman came to the house.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know if it was like Wednesday at like 4 a.m. or Thursday at 4 a.m. But my mom had told us that Friday and she was like you know daddy's in heaven. An angel came to pick him up. You know he's not coming home. And I always say like what remarkable strength that my mom had that she didn't like tiptoe around us. And I think you know of course that hope that you know dad hit his head and he'll be home. You know that hope's always there.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01] But I think that she didn't fuel that hope. She did again sit down a six-year-old, a five-year-old and a three-and-a-half-year-old and said hey like unfortunately this is final. Which I don't know how she had the strength to do that. But I'm glad she did.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00] Can't imagine telling children that young. You know I'm six and eight years older than my brothers. My brothers were 10 and 12. But it was my first day of sophomore year in college and I had just gotten to class at 1010. So it had already happened and my friend had said to me why are you in class? And I was like I know I'm in class because I never really went to class. I played soccer and I always like and he's like no the World Trade Center had gotten hit. It did not register to me.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00] You know I didn't comprehend what he was saying. And he's like you need to leave your mom's probably calling you. So I got in the car and I just drove to my dorm room not really understanding what he was saying. And my mom actually was calling me and she's like listen daddy called. He said he was going to make it out. I sent for a car. So I'm like okay he's 40. He's going to make it down and that's fine. So I had to take the Port Jeff Ferry to get over to Long Island because the bridges were basically closed.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00] So I went home thinking he's going to come home. This is fine. And then I got home and like Liz said you know there were already people at the house bringing food. My one brother was outside crying. The other one was staring at a wall. And I'm like why is everyone here? Like I was just so convinced he was going to come home. I didn't understand that he was above the impact. He was trapped. There was no way he was going to make it out.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00] And you know a lot of family members we all made flyers. We went in searching for him day after day. He worked for Kenneth Fitzgerald which is the one company that lost the most people. And Howard Ludnick did hold a meeting at the Pierre Hotel and said nobody made it out which my mom went to. So she first went to a boy that my dad coached in basketball and told him. And then she came home and told me.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00] And I immediately wanted out of the house. I was like I don't want to be here. And I drove back to my college and got black clothes. I just needed to get out of the house. Then came home. And I still wanted to go looking because I did not want to believe that. And then we had the wake. And again I don't remember any of it because I still didn't want to believe it for about six months. I thought maybe he has amnesia. Maybe he wanted to start another life. Maybe this was his chance.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_00] Because at 19 I mean six is even worse. But at 19 my brain was still forming. But I just could not bring myself up to the 104th floor of him sitting there for 102 minutes burning. Because we did find a picture of him right before the towers collapsed. Which means that he was alive until the towers collapsed. And the medical examiner explains it as they were vaporized. And it's just too much.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00] So I really ran away from it. Like I used to get upset with my mom when she would talk about him dying and say that he was murdered. I'd be like don't talk about it. Don't tell people. Because I just didn't want to be a part of it. So I really ran from it as much as I possibly could. But grief has a way of catching up with you.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_05] Tell me more about that and how that grief was something that both of you processed in your different unique ways over the years.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00] Well grief for me happened in Guantanamo. And it became a responsibility for me. And it's lit a fire in me. And I think that that is why you see more of anger and rage and frustration in me more so. And where Liz has worked in the museum.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00] And she's had to see it on a daily basis as where for me I bring myself to what my dad's final moments were. And I don't know what they were specifically. And I worry that he was in pain. And what was he thinking of? As opposed to like Liz said her father was doing what he loved to do. My dad didn't love being a bond trader.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00] And you know and my brothers almost went to work with my dad that day. And I saw my mom fall apart. You know she tried to take her life. My family fell apart you know. And just like most families did you know. And so for me I kept moving forward as much as I could. But Guantanamo has been helpful. I met Liz.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00] I met another daughter who went through similar things. So it's lit a fire under my ass you know. Because there's so much to learn. And there's so much going on that it absorbs your whole life. You know when you think you know everything. You realize there's a thousand more things. Because it is very intricate and very extensive.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00] And it's not like the normal justice system.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01] My mom put us three girls into therapy like very shortly after 9-11. We had this like family motto that we were the four legs of a table. And if one of the legs broke or you know if something happened to one of the legs like the table would collapse. And so that's really how the four of us kind of moved forward. And it was always we were going to be a team. We were going to stick together. And again so my dad was 34 when he died.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01] My mom 34. So 34 years old with three girls. And you know my dad was a hero doing what he loved. But I always say like in my 9-11 story like my mom is the hero. And the fact that she just picked herself like up. Like this was her high school sweetheart. The men were 15. And she managed to raise three girls you know on her own. What strength.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01] And so she always wanted to make sure that we had a happy childhood as best as we could. And so like we didn't ignore the fact that there was you know dad wasn't at your softball game. Or he couldn't take you to a father-daughter dance. But she just figured out I really like somebody should study her. I don't know how. But she made life so fun. She even made like our punishments fun. So like if we would I'm digressing. But if we would fight like we were like fighting one day. And she like made us get out of the car.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01] And like we had to walk home through like a cornfield. And it was probably one of the most fun things I've ever experienced. And by the time we got back to the house like we were best friends again the three of us. So it's like she just had this gift. And so I think for me I didn't really grieve until high school. Because again like I understood the seriousness at six. And you can see it in a lot of my home videos. Like the sadness that comes over my face when I turn seven. Like it's wild.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01] That being said it is hard to process like the full extent of a loss like that. And a loss to this magnitude where it's played on the TV every year. And I think I did a lot of my processing through studying the Middle East. And trying to understand like why this happened. How did this end up being my life? And again that's why I dove into my Arabic studies. You know I have a master's degree in Middle Eastern studies.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01] So I lived with terrorism ideology the day of for so long. To be able to say okay like I don't ever agree with what they did. But now that I this is their reasoning on paper wouldn't be my reasoning. But this is helping me to see the full picture as to again how the hell this ended up being my life.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah it's often said when we cover murder cases that murder victims families are part of a club that no one wants to be a part of. And I'm sure it's very much this I'm sure you've heard that. I'm sure it's very much the same thing with 9-11 victims families who are also the families of murder victims. But as you said something so public about a lot of this watching this unfold on the news the footage the photographs coming out. And it's not even like a private crime.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_05] It's like this is all we all see this. And what's something that you would want members of the public who are not part of that club to know or that you know might be helpful or people might be surprised by about what it's like to be a part of that club.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01] I mean I'll take it like maybe two directions and say it's terrible but I think sometimes you have to have some humor. And I think that humor could be understood by the people closest to you. And so my best friend at home also lost her dad. And so we jokingly are a dead dad club. But I think again like what you just said it's so public that like on 9-11 you feel so naked. And so I think it's nice to have somebody who's like hey I know what that feels like.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01] Just to have that companionship and that having somebody that understands you. And I think that's what's so great about Jess is that you know all these years later you know we didn't have each other growing up. But we have found this beautiful friendship and supporting friendship now. And then I think the other side is people don't realize that you know on the day of 9-11 didn't just start and end.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01] And so with the case at Guantanamo and the over classification of things related to 9-11 you know like what I always say the who what when where and why. A lot of that's still ongoing. And obviously the case at Guantanamo is still ongoing and we don't have a guilty verdict on paper. And the documentary of course goes into the hunt for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed the alleged mastermind.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01] And I think that it's crucial for people to know that you know 9-11 rocked our world but it's unfortunately still rocking our world. And so yeah.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00] And they also make it almost like it's entertainment watching those buildings collapsing but they forget those are humans in there. Like you're saying it's murder like on our father's death certificates it says homicide. Those are human lives being taken. So people have to be very well aware that it's not just the towers going down. Those are people's lives being taken. And that's hard because you hear people making jokes out of it or it's a punchline.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00] And also you know I only go down to ground zero every once in a while. I don't really like going down. Like Liz said you feel naked because people are looking for the people that are crying. You know they're not looking for the people that are just standing there. They're trying to get you in your vulnerable moment. And for a lot of us we didn't find our loved ones so that is our only grave. And we're only asking for a couple of hours of privacy.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00] We share our grave with the rest of the world 364 days of the year. So we just want that time to just be able to sit there and feel peace. Because you know for me I feel my dad when I'm in the museum. Maybe not so much on the fountains. But you just want to feel not so much like a zoo animal. And that's kind of what you feel like sometimes.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes but you know and also that it doesn't end just because the anniversary is over. It's every day of the year that we live with this. Because there are two legal cases open. And you can't just escape it. And it's talked about in the news. Everything is compared to it pre and post 9-11. And it's hard you know. This is the world watched our loved ones die. The world watched us grieve.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00] And also the one thing that really triggers me is conspiracy theorists. You know and a lot of it comes from people I think that were born after. I think it's disrespectful to the people that died that day. And you have 364 days to put your theories out there. Leave 9-11 alone.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_05] It's also just so ignorant. You know it's like.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00] And I think this documentary will put a lot of that to rest. But it's really hurtful. Yeah. Because people will say a plane didn't hit it. Okay then why did my father call and say to my mom a plane hit the building? In his dying moment. So you know it's just it's hurtful. But I think that they forget that there are humans behind this. And there's families behind it. And people getting sick still.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_05] I want to talk a little bit about the Daughters of 9-11 documentary that you both were in. Can you just tell me a bit about how you both met. And how you sort of formed this bond.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah so we met for the first time in Guantanamo. The lovely terrible planet that it is. And that was in 2022. And it was really sweet actually. It was my first time going as a victim family member. I had gone to represent my organization and other times. And I'm quiet. I like to let people like you know have their own grief. Observe what they want in the case. And I kind of just take a step back. And Jess and I were actually on the beach.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01] And she had come up to me. And she said hey somebody showed me one of the opinion pieces that you'd previously written about Guantanamo and justice. And what that looks like for you. Which really might not be the mainstream method of family members. Because I just don't believe in the death penalty. But it was so kind that Jess came up to me. And she was like hey like this is so beautifully written. Like in that moment I don't think she was like I don't necessarily agree with you. She just showed me so much love.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01] And she was like you know your dad would be so proud. And you know it's so nice to meet you. And then like we went to this O'Kelly's bar. It's like one of the only places to eat there. And we were just chatting of like oh my god you were the oldest. How was that like for you? And there were just so many similarities to some of the grappling with our loss. That the friendship really bloomed out of that. And when the documentary crew kind of called up I was like you know the best person to do this with would be Jess.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01] Because the two of us do have a different. A little bit of a different like approach. And a different desire for the outcome of the case. But I think there's just such a profound respect and love for one another. That really shines through. And again it's incredible. Like it really shows that you can have different opinions. And still be and have a solid friendship.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00] And a perfect example of that is you know when the plea deal came out. They gave us an hour's notice before announcing it to the world. But I was taking a nap at the time. And all of a sudden my phone rang. And it was Liz. And she's like are you okay? And I'm like what do you mean? And she told me that the plea deal was out there. And she was checking in on me. Even though she wanted it. She was making sure I was okay.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00] And that's the kind of friendship that I personally want in my life. But it also and I would have never in my life would have said yes to do a documentary. If it wasn't for Liz. I trust her wholeheartedly. And I knew that whoever she was picking to do a documentary with would be good people. And if she was doing a documentary that it was worthwhile. So I was grateful that she wanted me to be a part of it.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00] And you know we might have complained a little about it while we were doing it. But it came out beautifully. And the people that directed it and produced it. I mean they really knocked it out of the park. The whole time we're like when are we getting to KSM? When are we getting to Guantanamo? Because we're like we love talking about our dads. But we want to get to that. And they did it. They knocked it out of the park. But honestly I mean Liz really cares about me.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00] And I truly like like I said if I don't get the death penalty I'm happy that Liz is getting what she wants.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_05] It's really nice. And just you know I think it's so important to spotlight. In a case that's complicated with as many victims families and survivors as this. You're going to get a range of viewpoints.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00] Look at the Idaho trial. There's four people and not everyone agreed on the plea deal you know. And you're never going to satisfy. There's 2,977 people that died. You're never going to get everyone that agrees. But that doesn't mean that there's going to be combativeness and arguing. In this day and age if you don't politically agree with people there's going to be arguing. And we both lost our dads.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00] We have a loss. That does not mean that I'm not going to fight with her because I mean there was a heated moment in this documentary. But that was only because the tensions were high. And I think we were just in Guantanamo. And it was like but we came back. I sent her flowers because I felt bad. But I'm not boasting myself for sending flowers. It was well deserved.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01] The flowers were great.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00] No it was because she deserved them. I just I let her walk away when I should have ran after her. But it was it's just you know some family members just do not talk to each other because they're on opposite ends. You know and there are some people that go after each other. And I just can't imagine not having her by my side.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_05] I think it's so great that you guys are modeling that just in a case as like horrific as this. You know.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00] And at the end of the day we just want a trial. We want the world to hear it too. But there's so many times there's closed sessions and it's like or there are red lights going on and you're like why can't we hear this. So it's frustrating.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_05] I imagine. And I want to kind of get more into that in a moment. I guess if I if I could just I think we're kind of getting this and it's certainly very much in the Daughters of 9-11 which I would recommend everybody watch. It's heart-rending but it's also like very gripping and it's also very like much kind of gets into some of this. But just so people can be aware listening to this can you talk through maybe where you do diverge in terms of the outcome that you're hoping for.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So just with my upbringing and I think just some of like the beliefs that like I don't know how my mom was. And so I don't believe in the death penalty across like on any case. And I'm not saying it's not easy because again like crimes can be completely utterly tragic traumatic and heinous. Because somebody like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is proud of what he did. And I recognize that.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01] But I still I don't know if it's because I was raised Catholic but I just have so many qualms with the death penalty. And so I don't want to see the case end in death. And so when the plea deals were announced back in 2023 initially I was supportive because it took the death penalty off the table. I'm of course not opposed to a trial. It's just I have doubts about us ever possibly getting there in the case.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00] But you're also against solitary confinement as well.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I have issues with solitary confinement. I have a lot of issues with the torture. I think if the torture never occurred we wouldn't even have to have these conversations. Like if they just captured these men put them in prison to be honest I truly think they would have been sentenced to death by now. I really do. I think that the case that we were given is just like a mess on so many different levels.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01] I think the military commission system is a disaster. And I'm being like super dramatic but it's the truth.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00] No you're being completely on point.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01] It's really difficult that the case is happening on Guantanamo Bay. And so when you go there as a family or as a you know representative of a non-government group you leave Saturday and you come back Saturday. And like you're stuck there whether there's court happening or not. It's not streamed on C-SPAN like a lot of other public cases. There's no transparency in the case. It's bogged down in classification and state secrets.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01] And so for me I think I'm as positive as a person as I am about like hey you know I'm happy and my life is good despite this terrible loss. I'm very pessimistic about this case. I think I had to grapple with that because for so long it's all I did. It was like eat sleep breathe Guantanamo if I wasn't working or doing you know things in my personal life.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01] Like I was there some the first couple times I think I was there almost every other month. But it's like you see that the system is failing and it hurts. And the emotional whiplash hurts of okay maybe plea deals maybe not maybe a trial. And it's just like very hard to stomach that the people who are doing this who have said hey listen there's the new judge said hey there's going to be a trial date in June 2028.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01] I hope to God there is but this isn't the first time this isn't even the second time that a trial date has been set in this case. And it's been 13 years of pretrial hearings where we're and I literally see this all the time. It even drives me nuts hearing myself say this but we're still arguing over what's admissible and what's inadmissible in a trial. And that's been going on for 13 years almost half my life. You know so it's like I wish I could say that was half my life.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01] So I'm just kind of like I think unfortunately I'm very pessimistic that this is going to progress. I terribly see Jess and I being like two cute old ladies who are like crabby as hell going down to Guantanamo. Like your baby.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00] Your teenage child.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah so it's I hope that's not it. Like I always say I will eat my words if a trial comes June 2028. I'm just not really that optimistic that we're going to see that judicial finality anytime soon. That's where I stand.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_05] We interviewed Rob Spencer who was lead prosecutor on the Moussaou trial and he was telling us that like before that military people were coming in and being like give them to us. We'll have them executed by the time you get it going. And they were just like no. And it's like that's the like I mean I can't imagine the level of frustration. So can you tell me Jess about your kind of viewpoint.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00] I went the first time in 2019 not knowing what exactly I wanted. I didn't even know what to expect. And I went there and I saw James Mitchell the one who created the interrogation program testify. I left there being like I don't really know anything about this. So I did everything I possibly could to research who KSM was. I read Mitchell's book. I mean the word learned helplessness.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00] I mean that was repeated I don't know how many times. But I basically did everything I possibly could to learn about this because I didn't want to make a decision based off of emotions. And I came to the conclusion that he basically decided what how my dad was going to die and what was done to his body. He's gone on the stand and said the only thing he regrets is not killing more people.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00] After October 7th he came into court with writing on his back that said death to Jews death to America. This isn't someone who has been in you know after the interrogation program. He's like he feels any type of sympathy. He's very intelligent. Even Frank Pellegrino says he's the type of guy that you'd want to have a beer with. He's charismatic. You know and he's terrifying.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00] You know he's somebody that if he could get in communication with somebody he would start planning another attack. He is not somebody that I want breathing another day. They say that they enjoy being in prison. It brings them closer to God. And so for me I think death is the only choice. And I would never make a decision for any other trial. I think that that should be left up to the families.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00] I've seen I watch all the true crime shows and I see I see how many times when the death penalty is taken off and they feel like they're cheated. You know and I understand that there are appeals. But at the end of the day what I do want is a decision because I want their rights because as they're considered detainees they have been given way too many rights right now in Guantanamo. They are living a very cushy life. That's why they want to stay in Guantanamo.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00] They have a lipstick. We were listening to a recording and you could hear Benatosh with this talking to another detainee and it's beeping noise. And I asked one of the prosecutors I was like what was that beeping noise. It's like oh they were walking on a treadmill. And I'm like oh my God. And you hear him also saying how he gets better prosthetics and better health care in Guantanamo than he'd ever get anywhere else. I mean you see these wounded warrior commercials and they're asking for money for prosthetics.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00] And here we have a detainee who is responsible for killing almost 3,000 people and he's getting better health care. It's just once you decide to do something like this I think you forfeit any compassion. So for me yeah the legality of the interrogation program really messed with our trial. But I don't think that we knew what to do after 9-11.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00] So I mean if there would have been another attack I really don't know what would have happened or how the American public would have responded if more people would have died. I still think Frank Pellegrino should have been the first one in because that was his guy. It doesn't make sense that they pushed him out and made him wait till 2007. He knew more about KSM than anyone else. I think the CIA is kind of bullies and they pushed their way in. And that's why we are here 25 years later.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00] But in hindsight you know it screwed us. But I'm still not understanding why we're not appealing the clean confession. Because you know watching Frank testify which I was down in Guantanamo. He's made it so abundantly clear that that was a clean confession. And I just think that should be admissible in court.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah tell me a little bit more about Frank Pellegrino. And you know he's in the documentary. He's kind of part of this journey. And what was it like for both of you to connect with him?

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00] I mean I saw I met him for the first time last 9-11. And I literally saw him and ran to him. I was like oh my god. She got to do a separate interview that aired in the documentary. But I just I think he is just I mean I always say I have a crush on him. And it's just because I think he just works so hard. And he was the only person screaming from the rooftops. This is a very dangerous person and no one was listening to him.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00] And I mean even Liz talked to him and said you know I know that you feel guilty but he shouldn't.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I mean he was tracking Khalid Sheikh Mohammed since before the 93 bombing. And definitely of course after. So much is tracking him through you know Qatar. And what I respect so deeply about Frank again because I do sit in this camp where I'm opposed to the death penalty. And I have issues with the CIA you know program. Frank was somebody who did things the right way. He believed in the rule book. And he believed in you know open communication during interview processes.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01] And you know again abiding by this code of conduct that if everybody abided by I don't think we'd even be sitting here talking to you. And he's just such a calm mannered individual. And despite like the challenges that he's had throughout this. It's again like just the frustration of tracking this individual.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01] Having so many people not know that you know it was KSM who initially brought a planes idea to bin Laden. And bin Laden initially dismissed it along with his military strategist Abu Hafs. So it's like there's a lot of that context that isn't known. And Frank had lived with that for so long. And I think this documentary will really shed light on a lot of that.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01] And I hope it encourages people to you know dive a little deeper into the crime of 9-11.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_05] Absolutely. And yeah we talked a little bit about KSM in general. And like sort of the lack of remorse that you know seems very apparent. But when we're talking about that I guess. Liz you mentioned something interesting about like learning more about what motivated this attack. Not that anything could make killing three you know almost 3,000 people make any sense. But you know as tell me more I guess about what both of you have learned about KSM.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00] He was fighting with the Mujahideen. He you know his nephew Ramsey Yusuf was the one who did the 93 bombing. And he paid $660 towards that. And then him and his nephew did the Bojenka plot which failed. But that plan B of the Bojenka plot was basically the planes operation of 9-11. He wanted to kill the Pope. He wanted to kill Bill Clinton. But he has his engineering degree from North Carolina.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00] He knew he's had his eye on the World Trade Center for a while. But he knows how to speak multiple languages. He had 60 something or maybe even more than that aliases. He would talk to women. He would talk he would dress up as priests. I mean he had this whole world. He had a way of evading people. Way of like traveling all over the world. He had plans. And way of getting money.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_00] He just hated our culture. And him and Bin Laden both said the way that they will stop attacking us is when we all become Islamic.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01] So my studies they differ a little bit. And in a lot of the rhetoric that especially Bin Laden put out and so Al Qaeda and you know KSM as an affiliate but not necessarily like a figurehead of Al Qaeda like Bin Laden was at the time. So much of the grief and gripes that they held had to do with U.S. foreign policy. And again I would never encourage. I would never say that it's permissible that it's okay to choose violence.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just regurgitating what like 10 years of my life I've read and lived with. Like at one point in the documentary I'm looking through an ISIS magazine which doesn't look great. But I you know I was paid to do research on that in college and after college and through my master's program.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_01] So like I have all of those materials because I was like I need to understand the ideology to wrap my head around this. And a lot of it again never right but had to do with foreign policy. U.S. troops on the ground near Holy Land. Yeah. That was a big thing with Bin Laden. Yeah. And then. In the early 90s. And then a lot about the United States' relationship with Israel. That's named by almost every terrorist group.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01] Terrorist individual.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_00] So KSM wrote nine reasons why they did 9-11. And one of them was supporting Israel and attacking Palestine. Another one was dropping the two bombs in Japan.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01] A lot of them talk about the Iraqi children who died because there were sanctions placed on Iraq for a period of time. And so again everybody in this life has a reason for doing something. That doesn't mean the reason like warrants a degree of anything. But especially to the point of like listen I might be mad I'm not going to choose violence tomorrow.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00] That same point we have people in this country you know now that has ice at their door. I don't think that those people are going to become terrorists. So to say that you know they had that lifestyle and a lot of those people had war torn countries and they didn't become terrorists. Some people are just built differently. And I said this Timothy McVeigh you know he was built differently. You know there are just some people that are evil.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_00] And I think KSM is one of those people. He beheaded a human being. He beheaded Daniel Pearl because of his religion. I just think I don't understand. I don't agree with the U.S. constantly supporting Israel. Because it's gotten us into a lot of problems. I think that us attacking Iran is going to come back in years because they are very patient people. And I think it's going to be another 9-11. And people are going to be like where did this come from?

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00] Just like 9-11 happened. And they were like how did this come to be? Because between the 80s when we went and fought the Soviets with the Mujahideen and then we left. That angered them. And then the 90s like Liz was saying you know going into Mecca. And that was bin Laden's biggest thing. He's like I'll go and protect it. And the Saudis were like we don't want you. And he got a lot of people to join that way.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_00] And I think this is going to come back tenfold also with what we're doing in Iran.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_01] I'm never condoning it by saying that like I looked at the reasons. It's just that there were reasons put out. And I also really like to make this disclaimer and you know again doing this for 10 plus years of my life. Getting paid to do this type of research. I even worked for Peter Bergen who was one of the first people to ever interview bin Laden in 97. The more like the deep dive that you take. Yes these individuals do practice Islam. They are Muslims. Muslims.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_01] But it is such a perturbed and twisted and messed up version of religion. And Jess sometimes says like it's almost like culty. It is. And it's like.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00] That's what the terrorists are.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01] They're an extreme cult. I don't consider somebody like Klee Jake Mohammed to be a faithful Muslim.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_00] No and in Yosri Fuda's book he even said when he was meeting him he was not by any means reading the Quran. He was smoking cigarettes. He wasn't doing anything that says practicing Muslim. You know but now here he is you know converting his lawyer.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_01] But I think that's that's one of the like really important takeaways is that I would say it was the few not the many. And there are so many people in my life who practice Islam and it's a religion of the book.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_00] So just like this is the thing I am not religious because I think that religion causes wars. I'm agnostic. I believe my dad's around me but I just think that religion is too it's caused too many wars. I am totally supportive of people who are religious to each his own but I just I think that it's caused way too many problems. I mean I just watched the pastor's wife and I'm like that man anyone who's really sad.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_00] I mean look at and people go and listen to him and he's telling people you need to obey your your husband and do what he and that's a religion right there and it's crazy. So I don't sign up to somebody telling me what I should be doing. I just try to live by the book of treat others how you want and be treated and to be kind to others. Don't judge a book by its cover. And that's how my father raised me. That's how my mother raised me. You know.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_05] And I think what you guys mentioned you know it's like it is culty. I've I've read some of the reasoning and rationale for it and it's it what I can't get past is like certainly you know certain things you might certainly say well I feel angry about this or I don't think this is right. But it doesn't it's sort of like when you look at any true crime case like you might even have people say well this murderer did this because you know he didn't have a good relationship with his mother.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_05] And then you like if everyone who had problems their parents did something like this like we'd be in trouble. And it's like the action taken afterwards I think is what can be confusing.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00] Like a Norman Bates. Like a Norman Bates.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_05] Like it's like well that you know doing this where you kill all these people innocent people who are just at work. Not a battlefield. Right. I'm sure they saw it as an act of war and maybe and certainly it is.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00] But civilians are the same. They he said it in the thing he goes and what were we supposed to warn you. He said civilians are just as much like soldiers. And here's the thing he comes into court sometimes because they are not shackled or handcuffed. He comes in sometimes in our U.S. military fatigues because in the 80s we handed them you know weapons and our fatigues. So it's hard. And he has this orange beard. He's a very tiny man.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00] He's five foot four. People I was shocked when I saw him for the first time because I'm I you know been lying to you. And it was like six five. Six four. Six six four. Six five. He was huge. And here's this guy a foot shorter than him. And I you know I couldn't believe how small he was. Gosh.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_05] I I want to ask you both you know what are you hoping people will take from the daughters of 9-11? You know hopefully they go watch it and what do you want them to take away from that?

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01] I mean just the fact that this is still ongoing. There's people within my life and listen all very well and good meaning. And they're like I didn't realize that this is all still happening at Guantanamo. And I'm like yeah. And so like of course when I started going down that brought some like local visibility. But I think that because this isn't on C-SPAN and on the news like so many other cases are. I think people forget that this is still ongoing.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01] And so you know I think it's really important for people to like honor and commemorate the loved ones that we all lost on 9-11. But also to recognize that those who are accused of perpetrating and planning the attacks are still waiting to be tried. That hasn't ended. It's still ongoing. And again it's basic but I just I want people to realize that. That this is still going on you know despite the fact that it's been 25 years of our lives.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01] This is still going on.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_00] Also that it wasn't bin Laden. I mean he was a played a part. And also that grief isn't linear. That you know just because 9-11 happened in 2001 it doesn't mean that you necessarily dealt with it right away. That you could have dealt with it years later like I did you know and there's nothing wrong with that. And that people can disagree and still have a beautiful relationship.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Very important message right now I think. You know and I think that is something that is so you know inspiring about this. Is that people can have very sincerely held beliefs and still really care about each other. Those two things can coexist very beautifully. This is a stupid question. I apologize for asking. No stupid questions. No this is going to be. Is there is there a way people can help. Like it is so awful to me that.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_00] I think. Yes. I think contact like contact the legislation your legislator congressman and ask for it to be on C-SPAN. Ask for it to be you know put on TV. Ask why it hasn't been put on trial sooner. Push. You know because it's only the family members that are doing that. So push. Push. Because if more Americans that aren't directly affected by it are pushing.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_00] It will put pressure on the DOD and the DOJ. You know. So yeah. Do that. It would help us immensely.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_05] We have this true crime community. You know which. It's deep. It runs deep. Right. But you know it's like. But we like we're always you know talking big game about you know let's crowdsource stuff. And then it usually involves just stalking innocent people. So it's like why don't we direct the energy into something. I mean this should be transparent. It should be accessible especially for the families. It's it's not right that it's still going on. Right. And anything that could be done to make that easier for people I think is really important.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_01] Again the fact that like it isn't transparent and like everything just again look at like the Lindsay Clancy case. There's there's not a single. Or Karen Reed. Yeah. There's not a single person who wasn't talking about that. And that was happening in the state of Massachusetts. Both of them were. You know and so to have something on this national scale. Everyone was invested in it.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_00] And this is a mass casualty a terrorist attack. Why aren't more people outside protesting.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_01] There's certain elements because of the state secrets and classification that like no matter how hard and like we push. But you said even do a day late. That's what I'm saying. Yeah like even if you like recorded this a day late and at least put it for people to air. Um just again like don't lie and say that you're being transparent. Like actually be transparent.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_00] Because the 9-11 commissions is not transparent.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_00] We need to hear this trial. It's part of history. And unfortunately like it shouldn't just be like the names read. These are human beings and we should know why this happened. And what the failures of America was. How we can prevent this from happening again. And what is taking so long. Like why it's taking so long.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_05] People need to see also I think the hateful ideology. And I think people also need to see like you know people have a lot of sympathy under you know like for folks who went through 9-11 who lost people. But it's like that doesn't get directed anywhere. It's just oh that's sad. And you know this is actually something that could help people. Liz and Jess I want to thank you so much. Thank you for having us. You guys are amazing. And I would really encourage everyone to watch The Daughters of 9-11. And I is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention you think it's important to note.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_01] I think you gave us a lot of a lot of time to discuss and have a great conversation with you. So you're awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_05] You guys are great. We want to thank Jess and Liz for talking to us about their experiences. And again starting tomorrow you can watch Daughters of 9-11 on CBS or Paramount+.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_04] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_05] If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_04] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for The Murder Sheet. And who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_05] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.