A Conversation with Mountain Climer about the Life and Crimes of Indiana

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[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00] when they use code MSHEET at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code MSHEET at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. I'm Anya, and today we're going to be speaking with Jeremy Clymer, a native of Columbus, Indiana, who is making music about true crime.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01] Content warning. This episode includes discussion of murder, rape, suicide, and child abuse. Jeremy Clymer, also known as Mountain Clymer, and I have a few things in common. We are both about the same age. Both of us come from Columbus, Indiana, and both of us have an interest in true crime. For me, it is the subject of this podcast. For Jeremy, it is an occasional subject of the music he writes and performs. He has enjoyed quite a bit of success, too.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01] Last year, Spin Magazine named him as one of the top emerging artists of the year. Here are some of what they had to say about him.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00] Mountain Clymer, the moniker of Indiana native Jeremy Clymer, weaves together country, folk, and indie rock with vivid storytelling. Clymer effortlessly shifts moods while exploring themes of love, loss, and mortality. He pairs upbeat grooves with sobering lyrics, reminding listeners that even the catchiest melodies can carry weighty truths.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01] Jeremy's most recent album, Indiana, includes a couple of songs about some well-known local crimes. We were really pleased when he agreed to chat with us about how Indiana and its crimes have inspired and changed him.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01] And this is a conversation with Mountain Clymer about the life and crimes of Indiana.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01] Jeremy, we appreciate so much you joining us today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. I grew up kind of in between Columbus and Seymour, Indiana. Roundabout's Jonesville off Indiana 11. And I've been writing songs and playing guitar since 91 or 92, somewhere in there. And I've been doing it a long time. But like a lot of people, when COVID hit, you had extra time on your hands. And I got into recording, which I hadn't done before. And that kind of just snowballed from there. So I've kind of got a second lease on my creative life here in middle age.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01] And you're getting noticed. Tell us about Spin Magazine.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So I have to give all the credit for that to my friends at 19th and 7th in New York City who do some marketing for me. And still kind of amazed. That's still kind of been the pinnacle. I never would have thought when I was a kid playing in garage bands that I would have ended up in Spin. But yeah, just grateful for every person who appreciates what I do. So what did Spin have to say about you? Oh, that's... I try not to read my own press too much, good or bad.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02] But so it's been a while. But I was on a list of 10 emerging artists in 2025 based off of my previous album entitled Before You Turn Out the Lights. Tell us about your current album. So Indiana, which officially comes out on April 17th, is kind of a passion project album between albums based a lot on my childhood and just my...

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02] I don't want to say midlife crisis, because it's not a crisis, but just like a midlife change of opinion maybe on where I grew up. And not that I ever had negative feelings about it, but I guess I'm feeling more positive about it the older I get. And so revisited both my childhood and just stories that I knew. And it's definitely because of that a much more personal record than what I typically do.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01] You talk about changing your view. So what was your original view of the Columbus, Indiana area and how has it changed?

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02] So I think, you know, like anybody, most people, I would say at least, especially most people who grew up in smaller towns, you're like, I can't wait to get out of here. And, you know, I'm not saying that I shouldn't have left. I definitely, I think part of appreciating it the way I do now is that I did leave. But there's so many things that are important to you when you're young that when you're older, you realize are not that important.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02] I also, with the benefit of hindsight, can see how a lot of that stuff shapes me and particularly the architecture, because I'm very much a lover of functional beauty and functional art. And it's like, I wouldn't have a car. I didn't drive. I wouldn't have a guitar. I didn't play. And so to have those amazing works of art that function as schools and libraries, especially the libraries near and dear to my heart. I think that helped me make sense of what art should be.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02] Also, you know, all the time I spent at the library definitely crafted and helped nurture my love of storytelling.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I guess they call Columbus the Athens of the prairies. And so I guess just growing up amidst all that stuff, how can it not affect you?

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00] We were especially interested in asking Jeremy about the real life crimes that inspired two of the songs on his album, Madge and Goodnight John Boy.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01] So tell us about there's a couple of songs on your album that deal with crimes and murders.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, I think to begin with Madge. That's a story that I can't recall when I first heard it. But it's one of those. There's a lot of stories in Indiana that for some reason don't get the kind of attention I feel like they deserve. And Madge was one of those stories that you just think about. There's this like corrupt politicians, criminal empire. There's racism of the time. There's everything in that story that anyone could possibly want.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02] And I don't remember reading about it in school or anything like that. And yet, as so often is the case, something completely unrelated to politics or whatever is what brought the whole thing down.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01] I also didn't hear about Madge Oberholzer while I was growing up in southern Indiana. When I think back, I don't think I heard about the case until years later when I was in law school. But it was one of the biggest crimes in Indiana history, and we've often thought about covering it.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00] We are oversimplifying a bit, but in 1925, Indiana was largely run by the Ku Klux Klan. The organization had a huge number of members and a great deal of power and influence in the state. D.C. Stevenson, Indiana's grand dragon, was a kingpin in the state, and many felt he was completely unstoppable.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01] But Madge stopped him.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00] In 1925, when she was just 28, Stevenson kidnapped her, forcing her onto his private train car to Chicago. He raped her repeatedly, violently biting her all over her body.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01] She decided she could not live with this. She got her hands on some poison and took some of it. She became ill. Stevenson would not get her medical attention unless she married him, presumably because he imagined this would make it difficult for her to charge him with rape. So instead, he had her dropped off at her home. By then, it was too late to save her. But before she died, she gave a full statement explaining exactly what had happened to her.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00] Stevenson was charged and convicted of murder. The resulting trial provoked such outrage throughout the state that it broke the power of the Klan. In death, Madge had brought him down and therefore helped to make Indiana a better, less hateful place.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01] How do you take a story like that and turn it into a song?

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I hate to give away all the how the sausage is made, but in that case, I'm not going to lie. I mostly just read Wikipedia. The story tells itself. I had to just not get in the way. You know, you give a little poetic license to kind of, as I always like to say, for me personally, the goal of songwriting is show, not tell. Like, I always tell people like Old Testament, not New Testament.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02] Like, you got to put the person in a scene. So I tried to do that. But I drew the facts pretty much straight out of as accurate as they are on Wikipedia. That's about as accurate as they are in the song. So that one, I didn't have to be that good to do.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01] So that case that took place, I believe, in the 1920s. But the other case is a case that was much closer to home.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00] Good Night John Boy was inspired by a Columbus area murder, the Chad Walton case.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01] You may have had something like it happen in your hometown. It's the sort of crime that doesn't make the national news, but it made a tremendous impact on the people in the area. And it still haunts some of us to this day. It especially affected the young people in the community who had to deal with the fact that they'd been going to school every day with a murderer. All these years later, it is a case I still think about.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00] This is not the place to go into all the details of it, but here's a rundown of the basic facts. The crime happened in October 1991 when Chad Walton was 16 years old and a junior in high school. Like many teenagers, he did not get along with his parents, 47-year-old Charles Walton and 43-year-old Ginger Walton. He said they wouldn't let him make decisions for himself. He said once they followed him when he was on a date.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01] One October night, Chad crept into his parents' bedroom as they slept and he attacked. He beat them with a baseball bat and stabbed his father with a bayonet. Ginger died of blunt force injuries to the head, face, and brain. Charles died from blunt force to the head and a stab wound in his back.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00] Chad confessed, pleading guilty but mentally ill. He was sentenced to 120 years in prison.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01] The case stuck with Jeremy too, which is why he ended up writing a song about it. He remembers the time when it happened.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02] And I think the Goodnight John Boy, that story stuck with me as well. And I would have been 13, I think he was 16 or 17. So he's just a little bit older than me and it was just like the first time that I'd heard about somebody killing somebody and it was across town. I mean, Columbus, yeah, there's a few interesting murder stories throughout the years, but it doesn't happen all the time.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02] You know, it's the first time I had heard in real life of somebody being murdered. Unfortunately, I ended up knowing a handful of people who killed or were killed by the time I left home. But at the time, that was the first case. And he had gotten caught in Illinois, got arrested, extradited back to Columbus to face charges. He pretty much said he would kill again. The psychiatrist said he would kill again.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02] Again, it was kind of one of those things where you can't, the greatest writers can't write as good as reality a lot of times. So, yeah, I mean, I had less for sure details on that case, but I tried to just go with what I knew and with what I remembered. There's a saying, and I don't know where it originates, but it's kind of like we know who you are by how you behave when no one's around. The thing that's interesting to me about true crime is twofold. Number one, I have a child.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02] And so the more I understand about human beings, the better I feel like I can teach her and protect her. But the other part of it is I'm just fascinated by what makes people turn left when everybody else would turn right. Why hire a hit man and go to jail for the rest of your life to kill your spouse for an insurance settlement when you can just get divorced? Like, you know, I mean, and I understand that there are certain things that aren't pleasant.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02] Like divorce is not pleasant, but it definitely beats spending the rest of your life in the end of penitentiary. So I just guess I'm fat. We all have a place where we would do terrible things. For most of us, that place is really far down the line. So I'm kind of just interested in those folks who instead of getting off at exit 99, get off at exit four. And you're just like, man, you had way other options. Why did you choose this?

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02] And there's not always an answer, right? Like, but I can't help but just be curious about it.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01] And I want to go back. You said something to the effect that you knew other people in Columbus who had been victims of violent crimes. Is that something you can talk about?

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02] A little bit. I knew somebody. I went to church with somebody who's I think it was his brother who killed a woman and her two kids. And then he left their bodies like by the by the White River. But it was like right across from where my grandmother lived. And then there was a guy who I worked with who worked for my dad at Cummins, who I believe he killed his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend and then did the suicide by cop thing.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02] And that might have not been in Columbus, but North Vernon or somewhere nearby. And then lastly, there was a kid and his mom that we knew. And I don't know the details of that, but he shot her with a shotgun and he did do time for that. So and in his case, I think that maybe is one of the reasons I'm interested in these things, because because I knew his mom, I knew the things that had happened to him when he was

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02] younger, the things that his birth father had done to him. So maybe that's just part of like, I'm always looking for a reason why people do the things that they do. And maybe I don't know, it's just luck of the draw. Like I was I was at the House of Blues the night before Phil Spector took Lana Clarkson home. And for years, I thought it was the same night. And then I when that documentary came out, I realized, oh, no, I was there. That's not the band I was there to see. I looked it up and I was there the night before.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02] But I'm like these kind of just like brushes with these things that are so foreign. It just it just kind of reminds you that that stuff's not necessarily that far away.

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[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01] So tell us a little bit about some of the other songs on the album and what you hope people come to understand about Indiana.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. Well, starting with the title track, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning. Like, I kind of compared myself, for better or for worse, to Limestone. And, you know, Indiana Limestone left Southern Indiana and then became the Empire State Building and the Washington Monument and all these things. And I was just kind of questioning, especially considering I go back to Bloomington to record. I kind of just like, did I have to leave? Maybe I did. Maybe I didn't.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02] But I always thought that that was the only path to greatness was like that to leave. So, uh, a son of the Church of Christ without Christ. I actually purposely did not kill her off in that song because there's only so much killing, I guess I could put in a record. But that's my biggest literary influence. The biggest influence on my writing is Flannery O'Connor. And so there's, there's a few nods to her in that song, not least of which is the title.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00] I just want to jump in here and second Jeremy's praise of Flannery O'Connor. Some of you who enjoy true crime in general might also really enjoy her. She is, I think, I have two favorite writers and she's one of them. I have Graham Greene and Flannery O'Connor. So Flannery O'Connor was predominantly known for her short story output. I believe she published a total of 31 short stories.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00] And some of them are just absolute banger classics of all time. Her most famous one is called A Good Man Is Hard to Find. And all you true crime people might be interested to note that it involves a fictional serial killer. So it is something that, you know, I think might be up some of your alleys. It's also just an amazing story. Flannery O'Connor is kind of the master of the feel bad story.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00] She's all about the grotesque, the southern gothic, the disturbing, the judgmental, the hypocritical. But one thing that cuts through all of her stories, all of her storytelling that I appreciate and that I love about her, is the concept that the grace of God is a violent and terrifying thing to behold.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00] So you have the darkness and then you almost have this blinding beam of light coming through in all of her stories. She's a genius. She's brilliant. Some of my favorites other than A Good Man Is Hard to Find, which of course is her most famous story. I loved Good Country People. That is one I think about a lot. Greenleaf, A Circle in the Fire. A Late Encounter with the Enemy is pretty funny. She's very funny. She's very mean, but she's very funny.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00] The displaced person is very memorable. So she's amazing. I often rave about her to Kevin. Unlike Jeremy and I, Kevin has not read her, so I think you need to get on that, Kevin.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00] But certain quotes from her stories have entered my personal lexicon. I probably shouldn't say this. Maybe you'll edit it out. I don't know. But sometimes, this is from A Good Man Is Hard to Find. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. But when Nick is really, really acting up and being a bad dog and jumping on us and cobbing us and bullying us and making us look stupid when we're trying to Zoom with people we're

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00] interviewing her, sometimes afterwards I will say he would have been a good dog if it had been someone there to shoot him every minute of his life. That gives you a sense of things go to some pretty dark places in A Good Man Is Hard to Find. And then the other thing I often say in the context of true crime is we've become so incredibly

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00] jaded about true crime and about how this space can really be very toxic for victims and people who find themselves in these negative situations. So sometimes I say about true crime, it's no real pleasure in life because that's also a quote from the serial killer actually in A Good Man Is Hard to Find.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01] You know, Anya, I'm also struck by there was another musician who is also a prominent fan of Flannery O'Connor. That's Bruce Springsteen. He's indicated that he was reading a lot of Flannery O'Connor when he was writing his classic album, Nebraska. That's also an album that has some songs about true crime. In particular, I think of the title track, which is about the Starkweather case.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00] Oh my gosh, yes. And that is, it shows the influence. And I think it shows in Jeremy's work. And so I'm sorry to nerd out, but I just want to say, Jeremy, you have amazing taste. And I love seeing those Flannery O'Connor influences in another artist who's kind of taking some of those ideas and running with that and running with sort of the grotesque and the disturbing. Because I think in order to truly appreciate life and in order to appreciate the gifts that

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00] we all have and be grateful for that, I think it's good to look at the darkness, but oftentimes from the darkness, you know, there can be a gift in and of itself. But yeah, love, I love, everything dies, baby. That's a fact. But maybe everything that dies someday comes back. So yeah.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01] Looking Atlantic City.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00] Love Atlantic City. But yeah, everyone should check out Jeremy's work though, because I really, I enjoyed listening to Indiana. I thought his album was really good. And I liked seeing those influences. I liked seeing the true crime. It's just interesting to me how a creative person like Jeremy can synthesize some of this darkness and some of these real stories and use them as inspiration in a way that I think is very compassionate and humanistic in order to make art.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01] So sorry to interrupt, Jeremy. We're like, let's go back to have you talking about your, your album.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02] Calendar page is kind of a song about watching my daughter who's 13. So she's not grown up, but she's not a kid. And it's, again, that's just something I look for things that other people don't say or not in the same way to try to be inspired by. You know, you get a lot of like, oh, she was a little kid or pay a watch y'all grown up. But that awkward in between face rarely gets dealt with.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_02] But Easter morning is kind of more or less my biography up till the age of 10 or 12 or something like that. The details are pretty real. High Tops and Architectures, again, you know, because you're from Columbus, but just that's another one of just making sense of some of the details of home. Fallen Angel, sadly, is basically also a true story about one drunken teenage knight.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02] It was Medora, not Bedford, but Medora had too many syllables. So and then Billy Graham's Bible was based off of a documentary I watched on Steve McQueen, who I don't think he lived there for very long, but he was born in Beech Grove. He is a Hoosier. And so then the only non-Indiana song is Castle on the Cumberland. And that still deals with crime. It just deals with this kind of cycle of in particular drugs and what what that does

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02] when your dad's not around, you have no you have no because he's in jail for drugs. There's no hope of once you're a felon. Your options are limited. And so I've just seen that too often in my family. And I kind of wrote that based around the title because the Kentucky State Penitentiary in Eddyville is called the Castle on the Cumberland. And I was just like, that's a that's too good to be true for penitentiary. So I got to do something with that.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02] So so, yeah, but it still applies to I mean, my family in Tennessee and southern Indiana as well. So it just happened to be that it's set in our neighbor to the south.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01] That you mentioned you don't live in Indiana, but you come back to Bloomington, Indiana to record. What brings you back here to record? Paul Mayhern.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02] I have started a book, which I'll finish before I die, I swear, on independent Indiana music. So I just kind of wanted to bring attention to some of the the bands I grew up loving and listening to. And so Paul was the first guy I interviewed. And I just I realized he was the same kind of nerd that I am in the sense that I asked him when his house was built. And he was like, well, let's see, Robert Johnson recorded in this year.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02] And so like he did the math based off of something that happened in music. And I'm like, this is my kind of guy. So I made a record with him in 2024 and it was incredible. And we just hit it off. And so even though I recorded all the music for Indiana at my home here in Colorado, I still went back to work with him for a few days to do vocals.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01] So, yeah, I'm also curious before we started recording, we talked a little bit. And you mentioned you're kind of in a similar situation to Anya and I because we're in a very crowded space and it can be difficult to get people to notice you and pay attention to your work. How do you get people to notice you?

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02] I'll let you know when I figure it out. What little success I've had, I really can't take credit for. Like I said, my friends, Mike and his crew at 19th and 7th have been fantastic. Paul's been a big advocate for me. You know, my friends and family, you know, my numbers aren't zero. So I'm very grateful for that. But I don't know if there's any particular thing that's working. And in fact, I'm waiting on a report now. But my business school.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02] So I went to undergraduate at DePaul in Chicago. I did a year of law school at Louisville. And then I got my MBA from the University of Denver. And so I reached out to my friend Susie at the University of Denver and she hooked me up with a professor. And so I was a I was a client for a marketing class for a couple of graduate students in the first quarter this year.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02] And so they're trying to help me craft my social media messaging or strategy or whatever, because I'm just not that good at that. Part of it's probably my age. Part of it's just when you do what I do, I'm a one man show. And so would I rather spend time researching social media strategy or writing music? I'd rather write music. So, you know, I kind of have to pick and choose.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02] But if there's something that seems like it's valuable, whether it's I'm trying to do more reels and things as opposed to just posting words or pictures. So that's it. I don't know what else to do. I'm always all ears to anybody who has advice.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01] So you mentioned you have a business school background. That's not necessarily something I would expect in a musician. Has that background helped you?

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_02] Probably some. I think I'm able to make those decisions faster, probably. And I know where to look for things. I got my MBA because I used to sell alcohol for a living. And so when we moved to Colorado, I went from like people offered me jobs left and right. And we moved here and it was like I couldn't get arrested. And so after a certain amount of time, I was like, well, I can't do nothing. I need to do something.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02] And so I went and I went back to school. But my good friend Mondo Signs, who's a who's a successful songwriter in Nashville, has an MBA. But he's the only other person I know who's in this business with an MBA. He's not on the business side of things.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01] So what kind of musicians do you like to listen to?

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I love everything. I know that's cliche. I'm not big into jazz or hip hop. But that having been said, there are jazz and hip hop artists I like. But as Harlan Howard said, three chords in the truth. So whether that's old folk music like you would find on Harry Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music, all the way up to the Ramones. I mean, and all points in between.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02] So my biggest personal influences, though, would be, oh, man, changes on a daily basis. But I never don't love the Smiths. I never don't love the Sex Pistols. I never don't love Oasis. Tom Petty, Hank Williams Sr. It's funny because Indiana is definitely more in that acoustic guitar kind of realm. So it would be expected.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02] But I'm kind of half hillbilly and half post-punk to screw up something the cramps said. But like, I mean, I mirrored those on my last record and people seem to like it. But like those two things will typically go together. But to sum it up for people who are listening, one of the reviews on my last record said it was like the cure with a southern accent. And I'll take it.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that's pretty good. So if people want to listen to your stuff or buy your stuff, where should they go to find it?

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02] So if you want to buy things, I very much appreciate that. You can go to my website, which is fourlaneroad.com. It's all spelled out. There's merch on there and there's links to anything else you would want. You can buy the music on Bandcamp. Otherwise, just please listen on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your music. I have physical CDs of some of the records that are for sale that you can reach out to me for. But otherwise, everything's on all the streaming platforms.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01] Is there anything I didn't ask that people should know that you'd like to say?

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02] One, I appreciate being on here to talk about things other than the same type of questions. I typically I'd much rather talk about my influences or the stories that inspire me than talk about myself. But I appreciate you having me on, too, because I think that like what you guys do, you're just the 21st century version of the murder battle. That's how people used to tell those stories. Right. And so now we have new ways to do that.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02] Ironically, Paul Mayher, my producer and friend, he was recently on a podcast called That Record Got Me High discussing teenage tragedy songs. And I had to I had to give him a little bit of a hard time when I got back home after listening to it, because the guy asked him, he said, do people do these songs anymore? And Paul said he was caught off guard. And he's like, you know what? I don't know. And I had to text him and be like, I think you're working on a couple of them right now.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02] But but to be fair, but to be fair to him, besides the fact that I was just giving him a hard time, but to be fair, I don't know that people are. Doing that type of thing anymore. The dead man's curve, the leader of the path or a really big thing. Yeah. And I kind of I kind of wonder why. I mean, there's plenty of songs written about plenty of dark things, but for some reason, that is kind of being rare.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02] And I think it's important to keep these stories alive. So whether it's the way I do it or the way you do it, I think what we're doing is important.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01] We really enjoyed speaking with Jeremy. We will include a link to his website. It is a band camp page in our notes and hope you give his music a listen.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00] Definitely check it out. It's awesome. And thanks, Jeremy, for coming on the show.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon dot com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee dot com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg dot com.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thank you.