The Cheat Sheet: Blame and Bathtubs

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[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02] I'm Anya, and today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be doing cases from Indiana and our neighbors of Michigan and Ohio, as well as Illinois. So, we're all connected.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01] We're all connected.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02] The Midwest.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01] And we're all holding hands across the Midwest. Yeah. All doing depraved, terrible things to one another here in the Midwest.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, that's what...

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01] So, come out here and join us. Come visit the Midwest. We're full. We're full of it.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02] What a terrible Midwestern ad. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including the murder of children and child sexual abuse. So, as I mentioned, it's a very Midwestern-focused episode.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01] And obviously, we didn't plan that. We just realized that as we were saying it because Anya always picks a couple cases. I pick a couple cases. There's no consultation. There's no secret councils. There's no secret meetings. There's no conspiracy stuff going on. We just do it separately and we come to the table.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02] Mine have a theme. My two cases have a theme because they're both prosecutors whose work, in some capacity, we've followed in the past. So, that's mine.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01] That's interesting. And then we... You love following your favorite prosecutors and your favorite defense attorneys.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, why not? You know?

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01] You're like whatever the equivalent of the Grateful Dead fans are for attorneys.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not a deadhead for these prosecutors. That makes me sound like a weirdo.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01] They're defense attorneys you enjoy.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not a deadhead for attorneys. I'm not following them around in a van.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01] One of the guests we have on often that you admire are defense attorney Tim Sledd. I love Tim Sledd. Are you a sled head?

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Actually, I will admit to that. And he's probably listening right now cringing. So, I apologize, Tim. We just say whatever in these things. It's a cheat sheet. But it's one of those things where I just, you know, I saw one and I was like, oh, wait. And then I happened to see another thing. I was like, wait a minute. We kind of vaguely know.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01] I haven't looked at it. Should you reveal now who these prosecutors are?

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02] What if I keep it under my hat and then you have to guess? But no, you know, so that's what we've got going on here, I guess. That's really sad. I'm not a deadhead for attorneys, okay? Maybe you, you know. I'm following you around the country. See what you're up to.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01] Let's move on.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Blame and bathtubs.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02] Think we're going to do my depressing cases first. And then end with yours. How's that sound?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01] What an inducement to tune in for depressing cases. Well, any murder case is inherently sad.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's true. Well, one of them's not a murder case. My first one will go in our own Hoosier backyard back home again in Indiana. And we will start with that case.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01] What's your source?

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02] My source is a probable cause affidavit.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02] And other court documentation. I don't know if this one got a lot of media coverage. When you do true crime podcasting or any sort of crime reporting, you learn very quickly that most cases do not get a lot of coverage. And there's a lot that goes on in our criminal justice system that no one cares about because it's not glamorous. And that's not good because it makes people uninformed. But let's move on.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02] So, this was a case of a man in Vincennes, Indiana, which I believe at one time was our state's capital, but no longer. And Detective Cody L. Wagoner was with the Vincennes Police Department, and he was the affiant and the lead detective, seemingly in this.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02] And he wrote out an affidavit for a man named Mark A. Marshall Jr. for being guilty of one count of child molesting, a level four felony that happened in Knox County, which is, of course, where Vincennes is. And he talked about this all came out of a July 17th, 2023 interview with a juvenile victim that only goes by BB in this.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02] And there was a forensic interview where she was being inappropriately touched by her stepfather, a man she called Marky, of course, is Mark A. Marshall. And he was doing all these things. He would basically get close to her. I'm not going to describe what exactly was done to her out of concern about privacy, but clear molestation, inappropriate touching.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02] And she would try to get away from him, and he would tell her not to go. Now, what's especially horrifying about this is that this child, who was violated in this way by a man in her household, went to her own mother, a woman named Ashley Marshall, for help to let her know that she was being inappropriately touched. And here's how Ashley Marshall responded to her child, telling her this.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02] Quote, he was drunk. Quote, look what you're wearing. Quote, you probably thought it was me. Quote, you probably did something to him. Quote. This just fills me with absolute horror and dread. And I think it's an element of these kinds of cases that is undercovered because it's uncomfortable, and people don't like to think about it, and people can't relate to it. What I'm talking about is not always, but sometimes in cases of child molestation,

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02] a guardian or parent actively knows what's going on and enables it and blames the victim. Is that something you've come across a lot?

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely. It's very common.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02] This is why, like, I'm just going to make a controversial comparison, and, you know, if you get mad at me, I'm sorry. But when people come to me with the Lindsay Clancy case and they say, she is a mom and she killed her kids ipso facto, she must have been psychotic. Regardless of the facts of that case, let's just set those aside. I think to myself, no.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02] And that's a very limited way of looking at things. You're saying that you're basically putting, you know, you are probably a parent and you probably love your children and would do anything for them and would do anything to protect them. But plenty of parents are terrible and abuse their children or even kill them or set them up to be abused by others. Like, being a parent does not imbue you with some kind of virtue or some kind of now you're a good person. And plenty of people severely mistreat their kids.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not saying that Clancy did. I'm just saying that, like, the logical thing of, like, oh, you know, parents love their kids, therefore they can't hurt them, is just stupid to me. You know what I mean? And I'm exactly what you mean. I'm just like, no, get away from me with that. That's the same thing as saying, like, no one can be psychotic, so she must have been evil. No. I mean, like, let's look. And again, set aside, like, the facts of that case, people have different opinions, that's fine. Whatever. I'm not commenting about her specifically.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just saying that, like, the reasoning people have sometimes when they're talking about cases where parents harm their children in some ways, I feel like it's often very emotional and often very much personal to that person's experience of parenthood as either someone who was parented or somebody who is a parent. And plenty of people don't do right by their kids. And, you know, we see their children as extensions of themselves

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02] or see their children as competitors or impediments in their relationship, which is more important to them. And I just think it's important for people to kind of recognize that, like, there are just really bad parents out there. And in this case, certainly being aware that your child is being molested and blaming them and making them feel like it's their fault because their actions are causing it versus the actions of the adult man who's doing it is so sick and so antithetical to what I think most people think of when they think of,

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02] like, I would die to protect my child. I would fight anybody for my child. And it's like some people are just not like that. They're just not. They're selfish. So anyways, this all happened. Ultimately, this little girl told her cousin about the various incidents. The cousin told the aunt. The aunt told the father. And the father of the child told his girlfriend. And then they went to the police.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02] So, I mean, it seems like it kind of went through the family telephone. But at the very least, eventually, it got to police. And ultimately, there was also a child solicitation charge filed against him for actually BB's sister, KB. And Waggoner, Detective Waggoner, put this to the United States Marshals Service because Mark Marshall Jr. and Ashley Marshall had recently basically fled to Florida

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02] to avoid his apprehension for these charges. So, ultimately, the jury convicted him on, I believe, child molesting and child solicitation. And he was sentenced on January 30th, 2026. It's a bit of an older case. And was sentenced to a term of 30 years in the Indiana Department of Correction. But he was credited for over 1,000 days spent in jail.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02] So, in this case, for reasons I don't really understand based on the record, a special prosecutor was appointed and brought in from somewhere else in Indiana to deal with this case. And who is?

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01] Who is this special prosecutor?

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02] I was going to make you guess, but it's somebody we've talked to.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01] Is it someone who I've had trouble pronouncing his name?

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yes! Ah! You knew it! Yes, it is! Who is that? It's James Luttrell.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01] The great James Luttrell.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02] The great James Luttrell. He's amazing. He's a guy who, like, has dedicated, I feel like, so much of his career to trying to protect children from predators. Notably was a big part of the prosecution in the Delphi Murders Trial, which saw the conviction of a child predator, Richard Allen. And he also was somebody who's just, I mean, just done a lot of those cases and has done trainings on them.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02] Worked for Grace, which is an organization that tries to root that out within Protestant churches. So, he's great.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01] He's a great guy. He's done a lot of work to make this world a better place.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. And we butchered his name throughout the Delphi trial, so we apologize for that. One of my, like, burned in my memory. I don't know if you remember this, Kevin, or if you were even part of it. But do you remember at one point we were talking to Amy Graham McCarty, who is the reporter there for the Carroll County Comet? She's lovely. Excellent reporter. Excellent editor. Just a great person. But she was, I remember very nicely trying to tell me, like, oh, just so you know, I heard your podcast. It's pronounced Luttrell.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02] And, like, I was repeating it back to her, and I could just tell from her face falling that I was still getting it wrong. Like, we were so, I want to blame the sleep deprivation, but she must have been like, this woman's not very bright. And she was really nice about it, but I just, I like, I just, I don't know. We were not at our best, but it was a time. But, yeah, he's great, and he's a great attorney. So it was interesting to see that, like, I guess he, you know, they have him doing some of these other cases,

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02] but hopefully he gets a break from all this chaos at some point. So now I think we're going north, right?

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01] You're going up to Michigan where you, the newborn football fan, were telling me there was a hot controversy last week.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02] I don't want to get into this. My sister went to University of Michigan. I don't need to get embroiled in the controversy.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01] But there was something very controversial happened that I, as someone who doesn't really understand football, I don't understand it, but it was like time travel. Somebody was giving somebody an extra second, and I didn't understand it.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know who got involved somehow, you know, Bill and Ted.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01] Doc and Marty.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, they're all there doing stuff, but, you know.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01] Which makes me think, well, maybe football is more interesting than I think, but I don't really understand it.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, IU won without controversy, I believe, you know. There was some blood, but, you know, just a nice clean win. That's what we like to see from the Hoosier boys. It's always great when you get clothing that you just can't stop wearing. It just looks that good. It's just that comfortable. That's the kind of clothing our wonderful sponsor, Quince, specializes in crafting for you. That's why we love Quince and are constantly shopping there to restock and refresh our wardrobes.

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[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, like I have to admit, like I usually am partial to Michigan because my sister went there. But at the same time, this is a controversy and I'm not going to wade into it. And I don't know enough about football. All I know is I love IU. That's all I know. I'm just living life, okay? Stop coming to me to get advice. Stop coming to me to tell me your problems with football. I'm just...

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01] So are people coming to you...

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, they're coming off the street.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01] For football advice and telling you their football problems? Yeah, they are. What kind of lost soul would turn to you for football advice?

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02] Really confused people. No one's doing that. I'm just joking.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01] So you're lying to our dear friends that listen to us.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02] I'm lying. I'm telling lies on the podcast. So that's... You're welcome. Now someone's going to cut this out of context and put it in front of something else. Timogen Kenz is a bad person. I'm telling lies on the podcast. Oh, goodness. Okay. So I'll tell me my source for this later because I fear it would give it away. I'm not going to say what town it's in. Well, I mean, it's going to be pretty obvious, right?

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. My source is the Times-Herald and this is out of St. Clair County. So you know who is involved in this. Um, and St. Clair County, of course, is where Port Huron is. And we've covered the Timogen Kenzoo case, the murder of Scott Macklin, which is a Port Huron case. And this is a very sad tragedy out of Port Huron that happened a number of years ago, but it's only recently sort of come to a head, come to a resolution. And I want to talk about that because I think it's, it's interesting.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02] So back on February 19th, February 19th, 2018, a three-year-old little boy named Matthew Mason was found dead in his bedroom in the Port Huron township. And an autopsy initially indicated that he had suffered evidence of strangulation, multiple injuries.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02] And the people living at home with him were his, uh, mother, Amanda Mason. And then his, I guess the guy she was seeing, Maurice Hul. I'm sorry if I'm saying that wrong. And, you know, obviously that looks really bad if he's showing injuries and then there's adults in the house, like what happened there.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02] But for a number of years, that was all the way back in 2018, for a number of years it went uncharged. And there were protests, actually. I believe Rita Williams, who, you know, has, has done some good articles on the Timogen Kenzu case for her blog Clutch Justice. I feel like, I think she was involved in some of those protests and basically saying,

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02] hey, St. Clair County prosecutor's office, why is this going uncharged? But what the prosecutor's office was saying was like, we don't have a case. We don't have the evidence yet. Now that changed when the St. Clair County Sheriff's office went and interviewed Amanda Mason and Hul one more time. And after that, they were both arrested and charged with felony murder.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02] The mother in this case, Amanda Mason, she pled guilty to second degree murder in November. Hul pled guilty in June right before a trial was supposed to happen. Both of them sort of point the finger at one another. This is the one who really killed the little boy. And, you know, this is a situation where just recently Judge Cynthia Lane was able to sentence

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02] Hul to serve a minimum of 31 years in prison and up to a life sentence. So that's what he got. I believe Amanda Mason may still be facing her sentencing. Maybe. I think she's actually due to be sentenced on today, September 11th. So that'll happen today. 11 a.m. She's facing up to life in prison. And what Lane said in, you know, kind of just, you know, discussing this sentence was like,

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02] you made it very clear, like, you didn't like this little boy and you were just hurting him. Like, why would you do this to a child? There were indications of past abuse where Hul slammed this little boy's head into a wall, made him do military timeouts, whatever that means. And then Amanda, in her pleading, said she covered up abuse by Hul to avoid child protective services issues.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02] Now, this case was primarily prosecuted by St. Clair County Prosecutor's Office Senior Assistant Prosecutor Joshua Sparling. But, of course, the St. Clair County Prosecutor is Mike Wendling. And that's somebody who's been criticized roundly for basically...

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01] Doing his job.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02] Doing his job and holding, you know, holding Temujin Kenzu to account and not going back on that.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I hasten to say that he has been criticized by...

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02] Unfairly by people who are stupid.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, the people he's been criticized by are members of Team Kenzu. And their criticism of him is unfair and unjustified. And he's doing his job because by working to keep Temujin Kenzu in prison, he's upholding the law and he's helping protect the safety of the people of Michigan.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02] No, Mike Wendling did nothing wrong in that. And he, you know, he's upheld the law and he's protected his community. And he deserves to be commended for that. Because, especially when he's facing... For years, people like Mike Wendling have faced down this mob of people who are just either uninformed or useful idiots for Kenzu or whatnot. And it would have been, I'm sure, easy at some point to just say, Okay, well, yeah, I guess I'm switching sides.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02] But he didn't because he understands that this person is dangerous. So I have a lot of respect for what he's done. And in this case, I understand that his office got a lot of criticism for not immediately filing charges. All I can say to that is I don't know the specifics of why they did not. But oftentimes, I think I see both sides to this in cases like this. I see both sides.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02] And what I say to that is I understand the people who love this little boy and the community members who care about justice and who care about like a child was killed and we must act. I mean, God bless them. They're out there trying and they're out there and it's so understandable. And maybe it's good to kind of be like continuing to talk about it and put pressure on people.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02] I think, though, the prosecutor must only bring cases that they are convinced they can win. And if there's situations, evidence that we're not aware of, or perhaps you have the difficulty of like one person's going to say the other person did it and the other person's going to blame, like they're blaming each other and it kind of cancels it out and you might get to reasonable doubt through that. That I'm just saying without knowing why, I wouldn't criticize them for not bringing it right away.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02] It sounds like they ultimately got the people who did this and they're being held accountable. The delay, again, it's unfortunate. I imagine it's so frustrating. My heart goes out to anybody who is affected by that. I'm not dismissing that as like, don't be worried about it. No, I would be if that was my family. I'd be freaking out. I'd be all over the news being like, you need to arrest them. But at the same time, from the prosecutor's perspective, it would be malpractice to bring a case before you feel it's ready.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02] And I think we must temper instances of attempts at public pressure with acknowledging that like we don't want a wrongful conviction to happen and we also don't want a case to go and have the bad guys get acquitted. And that sometimes if we politicize something so much that someone feels compelled to bring it, we're kind of increasing the risk that those bad outcomes can happen.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02] And I think it's very important to just be careful about that.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely. Very well said.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02] I think a little bit of public pressure goes a long way. Like, and also public pressure can just be continuously being out there. You don't have to even criticize anyone. You don't have to be like, you need to file charges. It can just be like, it's been three years and Matthew doesn't have justice. And like that, I mean, again, I'm not criticizing the tactics involved here because I just don't know them. I'm just saying like my viewpoint is that can be very good for victims' families to do.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02] I just think it's important to balance it with kind of expectations and not wanting to push too hard. But no. Yeah, no. Wendling's great. I didn't mean to say like, oh, he's been widely criticized. I mean, like, it's ridiculous that he's been criticized. And all the prosecutors who've had a hand in keeping that guy in prison over the years deserve a medal in my view.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I agree completely.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm glad that these people, to me, a mother who's not even going to protect their own child from some loser that they're sleeping with, I don't understand. I guess it's just not much of a mother. You shouldn't bring children into the world if you're not going to protect them in the most basic way. And it sounds like there's even possibilities that that, you know, it sounds like nobody, like, I don't know who was actually doing the beating. But it sounds like both of them are certainly morally culpable for what happened.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02] And this disgusting man coming into this household, beating up on a three-year-old boy. I don't know how you could even, like, hit a kid, let alone beat up on one and torment one like that. It's like this is a new little person, new to life, innocent, and you're beating up on him because, what, you can't control your own anger? Like, who's the toddler? You know, you are. Like, I just, some people should not be around kids.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02] And it's just interesting to me when people act like, well, you know, like, I feel like the Lindsay Clancy case has brought up some ugly topics in my view that I almost feel sometimes there's, like, this dismissiveness of, like, well, if you kill your own kids, that's not as bad versus killing some stranger's kids.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02] And it's like, yeah, obviously it's bad to kill kids in general, but if you have a responsibility to the child that you brought into this world who did not ask to be born, you know, I think that trust in that, that's very important. And violating that trust by letting someone else do something or by doing something yourself. I just think a lot of people, like, see children as, like, extensions of the parent. Like, they're their responsibility, they're their problem, they're there. And it's like, they're their own little individuals that are growing and learning and absorbing.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02] Like, they're not, you know, you don't get to just decide to take them out or to do nothing while somebody abuses them. Like, that's, in my view, that's heinous. But whatever. That's Michigan.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01] Speaking of the Lindsay Clancy case, shall we move on to one of my cases?

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02] Let's do it.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01] This is a case out of Illinois, our neighbor to the west, and my source for this is CBSnews.com. This is the story of a woman named Corey Walsh, who has been accused of killing her two-year-old son. She's been charged with first-degree murder. Her attorney claims that she was experiencing a psychotic episode at the time.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01] Police were called to her home on a Tuesday afternoon, and when they arrived, they found this teenaged neighbor of hers performing CPR on her two-year-old son. He was later pronounced dead. This neighbor found this child, this toddler, hanging in the basement from a rafter. He died of asphyxia.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01] There was another child who was an infant who was in the home at the time. He was unharmed. And Walsh was in an upstairs bathtub in a pool of blood with cuts to her wrists and thighs. She explained to officers that she committed this violent act because the two-year-old was the devil and the antichrist.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01] One interesting wrinkle in all of this is that Ms. Walsh was very interested in following the Lindsay Clancy case. She was, in fact, even participating in a group text chain about the case not long before committing this crime. And a legal expert quoted by CBS News.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01] Irv Miller says this text will, quote, be exhibit A by the prosecutors. It would be the first thing said in opening statements, the first piece of evidence they introduce, and the first and last thing they say in closing arguments, end quote. And I think the implication there is she saw Lindsay Clancy do this, so she's expressing an interest in it. She's following the case. She's seeing how Lindsay Clancy is being treated,

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01] and so perhaps an argument could be made by prosecutors if evidence supports it, that she was trying to copy the Lindsay Clancy case, perhaps by trying to fake psychosis when it may not have been there. What do you think of all this?

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02] I'm disgusted. Like, I mean, I don't know. I guess if it comes out that she has a history of psychosis, then, I mean, maybe she was psychotic. If that's not the case, then, yeah, I'm pretty suspicious. I was generally disgusted by a lot of the reaction to the Clancy case. You have, like, women posting videos themselves crying over their children online and how annoyed they were with their children, and it's like, your kid didn't ask to be born. You're an adult.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02] You know, like, you don't need to be posting this. Go to therapy. You know, talk to your best friend. Why are you being performative online for clicks and attention and validation? Like, it's pathetic, and it's bad parenting in my view. Like, and that was, those people at the very least weren't hurting their kids, but I was disgusted by that because it just felt like, you know, your kid might see this one day and, like, you're flipping out. Like, your kid did not, you made the choice to have children.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02] You know, like, we can have a conversation about how difficult motherhood is or how difficult parenting is and what resources as a community we could put towards helping people get relief or get mental health care or get, but we don't need to be seeing you flipping out in the bathroom throwing ice cubes around like a toddler. Like, let's have a conversation like adults instead of just doing everything we can to, like,

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02] basically feel like we're the main character in reality and, like, people are following our every move. Because that, honestly, that is what a lot of this felt like. It felt like weird, egotistical reactions about, like, how do I feel about this versus what can society do differently? And, again, I don't have a problem with people sharing their trauma or sharing their grief or whatever, but a lot of what I saw went well beyond that. Went well beyond that.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02] It wasn't people calmly sharing their struggles. It was people, you know, it's performative. It's fake. If you're setting up your camera, I mean, you and I create content for a living. If we're setting up our camera, it's not going to capture some kind of, like, intimate moment. It's like we're sitting down to talk to you all. Like, we're on, right? Like, and just for these people to be acting like,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02] oh, here's my candid reaction to my two-year-old knocking down my soda. It's like, no, it's not. You went and set up your camera before this, and now you're flipping out so you can get sympathy from other people who are not very sophisticated online. And I was disgusted with all that. I felt like a lot of people were putting themselves way too much into that case. That this takes the cake.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02] Like, because, yeah, if she was obsessing over this and is seeing, basically, Lindsay Clancy get a wave of validation from people to the point where, like, you know, people are saying, me too, Lindsay. My viewpoint is, and maybe this sounds a little bit harsh to our audience members, but everybody who posted me too, Lindsay should have their children taken away from them. No, I'm not kidding. If we believe that she was truly psychotic and could not help what she did, then your children are not safe around you.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_02] If you feel like you might become psychotic and violent, if you relate that much. And frankly, if we think that she was criminally responsible, then your children are definitely not safe around you. Many people who get psychotic never get violent with others. They never harm others. This idea that psychosis is some kind of, like, instant, yes, you're going to just go kill people is a myth. And frankly, it's harmful to people who deal with disorders that make them psychotic.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02] But in this case, it's like, I don't know. I feel sick that this case may have inspired a copycat. May have inspired somebody to say, well, I'll just do that. I mean, it's horrifying. And I think, though, before we decide that that's definitely what happened, we would need the facts. Is there a history of mental illness here? Are there a history of disorders that would possibly cause psychosis?

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02] If that's the case, maybe it is what they're saying it is. And if not, then maybe we need to be looking at this Lindsay Clancy stuff like it's some kind of bizarre social contagion. You know, they talk about suicide and mass shootings like they're social contagions. One act might inspire the other. Right. And we're social creatures. We're social beings.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02] If a disturbed person sees a bunch of other people getting validation for stuff, you know, I mean, it can I think that could be bad. And then I think that really needs to be a wake up call if that's the case. For how we do true crime. For maybe not putting someone like Lindsay Clancy on a pedestal. For maybe not doing a bunch of weird AI art about, you know, her being surrounded by a circle of women. Maybe we don't need to do that.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe we can have serious conversations about culpability without lionizing somebody like that. You know. It's just it's just disturbs me. It disturbs me. That a child might have lost their life in a horrible way because of this. Now, again, we may not we may find out that that's not true. I think it's too soon to say.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01] It's too soon to say.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02] And if it was just a psychotic woman, though, then I would definitely question, like, did were people aware that she was psychotic? Were people aware that she was getting really into this case? Because that would have been like a pretty big red flag. And I'm not blaming anyone in her life, but. I would want to know, like, how did that happen? You know, if I knew somebody who had a disorder that made them psychotic and they were getting really into something like this, I would be expressing a lot of concern for safety reasons. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02] Like a child is like. I don't know, I guess I my sympathy usually lies with the people who are victims of violence. And in this case, it's the children. I'll just say that.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01] Fair enough. I want to move on to a case out of Ohio. And my source for this is Cleveland dot com. And I think we may have a while ago covered an earlier iteration of this case. This is the case of the murder of a 33 year old man named Blake Story, which took place about two years ago back in 2024 on Valentine's Day.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01] The person who's been charged in that case is is a 25 year old named Key Keyon Tolbert. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that name. And I apologize for that. Mr. Blake Story is on his way home. He gets shot a couple of times. He keeps on walking. Eventually gets home. They find him dead in his bathtub.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01] And as it happens, there was surveillance footage in the case showing Story walking and an unidentified man coming up from behind and robbing him and shooting him. So six days later, detectives see a man leaving the area.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01] He also seems to match this general gait and mannerisms of the man in the video. And so at this point, police turn to AI.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01] More particularly, they turn to a company called Clearview AI, which says that it has a database of over 70 billion images of people's faces, which they've taken from public websites. And they say, we can help you with our database. We can help police. We can help military. We can help these people identify people in videos.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] But there is a disclaimer saying, you know, this is a tool. Don't use it as evidence in court proceedings. So even with that disclaimer in place, the detective in this case, a man named Michael Legg, he uses it. He gets the results. And they come back. Oh, it could.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_01] The man in the video could be one of several people, one of whom is this man, Mr. Tolbert, who ends up being charged with the crime. They get a search warrant and they search his residence and they find what might be the murder weapon.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01] So the problem is that when they went to the judge and asked for this search warrant, they don't mention, oh, by the way, we used AI. They don't disclose that at all. And so earlier, the trial court judge says, I think that was intentionally withheld.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01] It shouldn't have been part of this at all. AI is a tool and if it's used, it needs to be disclosed so people, judges can fairly evaluate it. And the judge is saying, in my view, it was an intentional decision to withhold this crucial information. And the prosecutors are disputing that. But so now it's worked its way back up to the appellate court and the court has to decide, okay,

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_01] let's assume that this was improper to include this and not disclose it. If we take it out of the warrant, if we take out this information about this identification from the warrant, is there still enough in there to justify the search warrant? And the police are saying, yes, we did some old-fashioned police work too. We backed it up.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01] We weren't just punching in buttons and getting something from AI and saying, let's go arrest that person. There was some police work involved and the police work justifies the warrant and the defense predictably is saying otherwise. And so that's what the issue currently being considered by the court. We'll let you know how they ultimately rule. I find it interesting, Anya, because we do live in a world where AI is becoming a bigger and bigger part

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01] of everything we do. And there are ways that can be tremendously helpful. I think we've talked about some of the ways AI can be used in police investigations in a positive way on this program.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02] The eSleuth AI, we've had a lot of people from that company on, and it seems like it could be a really great resources for cold cases.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_01] But it is important that people recognize that it's a tool and it needs to be used in ways that protect everyone's rights. And if there is a disclaimer on a company's website saying this shouldn't be used in court proceedings, it shouldn't be used in court proceedings. So we're going to see more and more cases like this, I imagine, where AI is a tool in investigations.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01] And just bit by bit, case by case, we are going to have to gradually figure out what the rules are, what the rules should be. We want to protect people's rights. We also want to use tools in responsible ways. You know, it mentions that the AI came up with several possibilities for who could have been in the video.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01] I don't want to live in a world where I'm listed as a potential subject of a video by AI, and that's enough for the police to come and knock down my front door. It certainly seems in this case there was some other stuff involved. They weren't just randomly going to whoever's name popped up on AI. But I think that is a consideration. What do you think of all this?

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_02] I completely agree with you. And I tend to have, I think as you do to a certain extent, like a pretty moderate view of a lot of these tools, about these like kind of big technologies that we're seeing become very controversial. AI, another thing I think of as flock cameras. My viewpoint usually is this. I don't mind the technology in and of itself. What I'm concerned about is abuse of the technology.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02] And what I'm concerned about is like the technology just no rules around it. It's just the wild, wild west. You can use it for whatever. I think it's really important that we draw boundaries around this technology. It's powerful, but that also means it can powerfully affect people's lives in a negative way. And it's also infallible like anything else is. So like it could get stuff wrong and that could really, as you said, like if we had,

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02] we're sitting here recording the podcast and some guy with a beard did something a few towns over. So, you know, that prompts Indiana State Police to like batter ram down our door and freak out our dogs and freak out us. Like we would be pretty upset. You know, it's like, wait, seriously, that's it? That's all you did it on? And again, it doesn't sound like that's the case here. And it sounds like, you know, you don't also don't want guilty people getting away with it because of stuff like this.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02] You want, you want like, I like clearly defined rules of like when we can use this, when we can't, how can we use it, how can we not, that allow it to essentially be broadly helpful as an investigative tool without causing problems. I think DNA is actually a good example of that. The reason I say that is because DNA serves as essentially a tip usually. When you have investigated genetic genealogy undergoing, they're basically, they don't just say, well,

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_02] these genealogists told us you did it. Like, they have to actually get that person's DNA and compare it with the sample. And if it's a match, then they're golden. But they're not just simply like, oh, well, this is our, this is the family tree. So we assume it was you. And it's a good thing they don't do that because there's instances where like it's brothers or double cousins or twins or whatever. And you don't want to get the wrong person.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02] So I think having conversations about what is allowed, what is not allowed and figuring this stuff legally ultimately benefits people's rights, but it also benefits these cases because it can allow, I think, I think there's middle ground. And I think there can be ways we can use this technology as long as there's like certain rules in place and, you know, safeguards for preventing abuse. In this case, I'm curious to get your take since you were the one who looked at it.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02] Do you think it should be thrown out or do you think it's salvageable?

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01] I think it is potentially salvageable because I do believe there was some police work done. They didn't just go, oh, there's a list of, say, five people who this might be in the video. Let's go search all of their homes. They did use a little bit of police work and such. And so I think it is salvageable. I don't think that their missteps in this case necessarily were done with malice, but I think there were missteps.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01] And I think it should be a learning opportunity not only for them but for other people in law enforcement who are using these tools.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Do you agree with me? I think we can figure out how to use some of these tools safely, but we have to do it safely. It has to be with an eye toward the Constitution. It has to be with an eye toward how can we do this in a way that doesn't violate people's rights. But there needs to be a border around it. But I'm also not one of the people who's saying let's just throw it all out and burn it all down. You know, like something like Flock, we've been talking about a lot.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02] Like I would be like, if you wanted to say like we use Flock but only for really serious crimes or like, you know, we're not using it to just like bust somebody for like parking wrong or whatever. You know, and we're basically like firing people or it's a criminal charge if they're misusing it to stalk people. Like, again, I'm throwing that out there. I'm sure there's a lot of considerations.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02] But I think there can be smart people who are aware of this and aware of the technology but also aware of the constitutional and law enforcement side who can get together and maybe draw up some plans on how to use this in a way that doesn't make everyone feel like we're in 1984. Exactly. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm being too Pollyanna-ish.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01] No, you're always very hard-edged, cynical. You're always quick to see the worst in everybody and everything.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02] You make me sound like a nightmare. Why are you saying that to the listeners?

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01] Well, you're an endless delight. I'm just saying you're not a Pollyanna.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02] You said I see the worst in everybody. That makes people, they're going to be scared of me. If they see me, they're going to think like I'm going to be mean to them.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_01] No, you're always unfailingly polite to everybody.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02] And then they turn around and I'm like, I see the worst in that guy. That's what you make me sound like. You make me sound like a nightmare.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, no, you're an endless fount of delight.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_02] It's a weird way to say it.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just saying you're a tough cookie. You're not a Pollyanna.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not. I mean, I think I will. Listen, I don't claim to be in law enforcement or a lawyer or somebody who even is an amazing grasp of the technology. So, I mean, I'm open to being wrong on this. I'm just saying that I think it's worth discussing.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_01] It's absolutely worth discussing. Another thing that is worth discussing, Ms. Kane. Oh, no. Is we have a lot of fun on our premium. What's this premium thing I talk about sometimes?

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02] Well, we really appreciate our premium listeners because they help support the show. For $5 a month on Apple or Patreon, you can get early access to episodes. You can get ad-free episodes. And you can get exclusive episodes. So those are our Patreon lives that we put on Apple as well. Why did I say that in a weird way? Patreon lives that we put on Apple as well.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_02] And we also do just kind of exclusive to the premium episodes where we kind of chat and do a couple of different segments. So it's a lot of fun. And, again, it helps our show stay alive and keep going. So we really appreciate everyone's support in that regard. And it's just really fun. It's a fun community. And, yeah, it's great. And if you want to do it, great. And we appreciate you. And we appreciate everyone who's already doing it. Thank you.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02] It means the world to us. Was that in? Sure. Missing any big points?

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_01] I don't think you're missing anything. I think you've crystallized my thoughts eloquently.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, thank you, sir. Aw.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_01] I'm trying to get myself out of that hole.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02] No, you're a little cutie. It's okay. Make me sound like I'm at, like, a bar somewhere, like, slinging back whiskey and, like, smoking a cigarette and glowering out the window.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, you've seen some stuff.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02] Which, I mean, is where I am spiritually.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01] You're like the true crime diogenes. You're going out. You're looking for the honest people in true crime. Where are they? Yeah, that's what you're doing.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02] Help me. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to get bitter about true crime because I love true crime. But, I don't know. Increasingly, it feels like, when I see stuff like Clancy and the reaction to that case, when I see stuff like, I don't know, so many things, it just makes me feel like, what are we doing here, folks?

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02] Like, we got to turn it around, you know? And then I feel like we're just Cassandra screaming at everyone, like, hey, don't open the horse, and people are not listening. So, I mean, it's a direct quote from the Ilias.

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01] Well, also, it explains a lot to me because sometimes on a weekend as we're driving through town, you'll often roll down the window and yell out to passerby, don't open the horse. And I've wondered, I didn't want to ask because I don't want to, you know, poke the bear. I said, why is she doing that? So, now I know that.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_02] I've never done that in my life. I'm just, I'm speaking.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_01] You startle passerby and onlookers by crying.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_02] Don't open the horse.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_02] That's not what happens, and I recognize it's not a literal horse. It's the horse of, so it's a calamitous horse, though, as a metaphor because it's ruining true crime. It's making people think that people are into true crime. Again, I've seen the normies, their reaction to some of this stuff is like, these people are nuts.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01] So, are you going to do like a special episode of this program called The Calamitous Horse?

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. I'm going to gallop into town on it. No, I don't want to be riding it because then I'm bad, so I guess I'll just be watching it.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_01] That could be the name of your first album.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_02] No, I don't. I don't have an album. There's no album. There's no actual wooden horse.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_01] Would you be like wearing like a little cowboy outfit as you ride this calamitous horse?

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_02] Dude, you're making me sound totally ridiculous. There's no horse.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01] It's possible I'm being a little bit too literal.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think you are. I think you need to refresh your homer. I think that, yeah, I just think we need to save true crime. I feel very, you know, I feel very.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01] See, that also explains something because sometimes as we're driving through town, you stick your head out the window and yell to onlookers, refresh your homer. And I didn't know what it meant, so now I do. So this has been very useful to me. I think I'm going to get a lot more out of this weekend. I hope everybody else enjoys their weekend as well.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. You guys take care and be safe. And yeah, let us know if there's any cheat sheet cases you want us to cover going forward.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_01] And don't forget to refresh your homer.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02] And watch out for any wooden horses because like that's just don't just stay away from him. It's not a good idea. We know what's going to happen and it's not good.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.