The Cheat Sheet: Botches and Barbies

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] Hi, I'm Anya, and today we're going to be talking about a number of cases for the cheat sheet, including two from Texas and one all the way in Sweden. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of the rape and murder of victims, including child victims, and including the murder of a pregnant woman and her unborn child. So today we're going to be going, I don't know if we've ever actually had a cheat sheet case in Sweden before. Is this a first for us, Kevin?

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_03] I think it's a first.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_01] That's pretty cool. I've never been to Sweden in my life, but I mean...

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_03] Do you have anything against Sweden?

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01] No, of course not. But I think it would be cool to go there.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03] Do we have any listeners in Sweden?

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_03] Should you say like a Swedish phrase or something?

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01] I wouldn't presume to try. I'm really not very skilled at languages. Even English at times fails me.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_03] Do people in Sweden like wear a certain type of hat or certain type of fashion?

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know, Kevin. Are we getting into weird ethnic stereotyping here? Like what are you doing?

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03] I'm just asking. I want to learn. Well, do your own research.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_03] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Botches and Barbies.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03] So where do you want to begin, Engineer Kane?

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01] Let's go to Alabama. My source for this is Fox 8 Live. And this is a very disturbing case that occurred pretty recently and is sort of ongoing as we speak. So we're recording this episode on April 30th, 2026. And I certainly hope it's still relevant and up to date by the following week. But if it's not, we do apologize. We will be sharing the basics and what we know so far.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01] So this involves a family. We had a 46-year-old mother, Lisa Fields, as well as her two children, 17-year-old Keziah Luker and 12-year-old Thomas Cordell Jr.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01] Now, there were also other members of this family, including Keziah's two children, her 18-month-old toddler and her unborn child. She was eight months pregnant. She was only 17, but she was on her way to becoming a mom for the second time. And, you know, just they're living their lives. They're living in a mobile home on Obel Moody Road in Wilmer, Alabama.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01] Wilmer is in Mobile County. And, you know, by all accounts from their obituaries, they're all deeply loved people and, you know, described very positively, very positive members of the community. Then, unfortunately, tragedy struck recently. So go to April 19th, 2026. Keziah's boyfriend is sort of like trying to get in touch with her and is having trouble doing so.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01] So he ends up requesting a welfare check via an app. And the bodies of this family are discovered around 2 and 2.30 a.m. on April 20th, 26. And so what it's a very disturbing crime scene in this mobile home. The victims, which are, of course, Lisa, Keziah and Thomas, the toddler was left unharmed.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01] They are bound with zip ties and left apparently in separate rooms. The residents show signs of ransacking. And it almost looked like something somebody was looking for something. And they were all killed pretty brutally. So Lisa Fields, the mom of these two kids, she was she was stabbed and her throat was slashed. Because I look her who is, you know, just 17 and eight months pregnant.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01] She was shot in the head, which also subsequently killed her unborn child. And Thomas Cordell, who's just 12 years old, his his throat was severely slashed. Again, the 18 month old toddler was left unharmed in this residence with with their dead family members all around them. And it was a horrifying scene.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01] So immediately because of the heinousness of this crime and because police made statements early on indicating that they did not think this was a domestic situation. In other words, you know, they didn't think somebody's husband or boyfriend came over and did this. I think this got some some interest from people following true crime because it was like, wow, this is such a horrible, heinous thing. What what could have happened? Well, on April 27th, 2026, police made an arrest in this case.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01] This was a man who lived in Wilmer, who apparently knew the family for a long time. And it was 54 year old William Graham Oliver. They arrested him at a traffic stop near his home in Wilmer. And then afterwards, a SWAT team and police searched his residence, which is about 11 miles from the crime scene. On April 28th, 2026, the Mobile County Sheriff's Office made an announcement.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01] They're saying that Oliver is now charged with one count of capital murder of two or more persons, four counts of capital murder during a burglary, two counts of capital murder of a child younger than 14 years old and one count of capital murder in the presence of a child. Police are saying, again, this is not domestic. This was targeted. It sounds like from the charges they believe he was seeking to steal something.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01] Given Oliver's history, which he has a nonviolent criminal history in the sense that not necessarily crimes against people, but certainly property crimes. But in 2020, he was charged with first degree property theft. So they're saying this is a burglary. What he was looking for is not known to the public. But in statements to the media, Mobile County Sheriff Paul Birch has made statements that the investigators believe they know what he was looking for, but they're not getting into that at this time.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01] What Paul Birch said was basically that this guy knew the family for a long time and he was looking for something specifically in their home on the night of April 19th. This is what he said, quote, he was at the home 730 ish Sunday night. Very, very tight timeline. Very solid circumstantial evidence at this point. And we feel confident that we have the right man. So questions still linger in this brutal homicide of this family.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01] We don't know everything, but it's sort of sounds like police feel at the very least that they're moving forward with this suspect. And one can only hope that they do have the right man and that justice is secured because the idea of murdering not only a mom of two kids, but also a 17 year old who is a mother herself and is pregnant eight months pregnant.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03] It's just horrifying.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01] And a 12 year old boy is just horrific just to steal something. Some people really truly do not have any sort of like view of the value of human life or, you know, versus their own greed and whatnot. It's just awful. My next case is also awful. I picked two really bad ones. They're all bad. I mean, any murder is horrific, but these two are pretty bad.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01] The next one, this might be something that some people are actually following. This is the case of Athena Strand, who was seven years old in 2022. She was living in Paradise, Texas in Wise County. And she was a first grader. And according to everybody, she's very joyful child. Very friendly, loved horseback riding, being a princess, according to her obituary, unfortunately. Playing with her sisters and, you know, just very beloved child.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01] And on November 30th, 2022, she disappeared. After school, she was last seen around 6 p.m. Her stepmother, Elizabeth, was doing some laundry. Called 911 around 6.41 p.m. because she noticed that Athena was gone. And this prompts a very significant law enforcement response, as you can imagine, whenever a child disappears under mysterious circumstances, that's going to hopefully happen.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01] You have the Wise County Sheriff's Office, the Texas Rangers, the Texas Department of Public Safety, Federal Bureau of Investigation. They're all ultimately working on this case. So there was a very intensive search between December 1st and December 2nd. And from the time she's missing onward, they are looking for her. They are trying to figure out what on earth happened here.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01] And what investigators find is that there was actually a FedEx delivery that occurred around the time that Athena would have gone missing. So when you're looking at that, you're probably, you know, could this be a suspect or could this be a witness or could this be somebody who maybe their dash cam caught something on the way out? It's important to look at this. So they trace the FedEx delivery.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01] To a company called Big Topspin. This is something actually I covered when I was a retail reporter. But one thing people may not realize is when it comes to Amazon or even something like FedEx, a lot of people who drive for some of these companies don't necessarily work for the company themselves.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01] They have they these companies employ contractors that then employ delivery drivers and they do sort of contract work. So this was a FedEx contracted with Big Topspin and the driver in question. They were able to find him pretty quickly. This was then 31 year old Tanner Lynn Horner.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01] And chillingly, as we will later find out, he had been delivering a package for the Strand family with Barbie dolls that were supposed to be a gift for Christmas to Athena and her sisters, I believe. Like horrible. So they look at this guy. And they, you know, they find out again, this would have been around the time she went missing.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01] And they contact Horner and he gives them a story. He says, yeah, when I when I was out there, I saw this really weird green van, kind of an older model green van. And it was leaving the scene. And what police do is they get the cell tower data and serve and they're kind of looking at that. OK, is there anything to this van story? But they're also asking for surveillance footage from the FedEx truck.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01] You know, obviously with it with a big company like FedEx, I imagine this probably like efforts to survey, make sure nothing's going wrong, whatnot. So they get that. And they quickly realize that the green van story is nonsense because they very clearly see Athena in the van. And some of you may have seen still images from that. It's horrifying. They're able to hear her conversing with him.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01] They see him pick her up and put her in there. And she's asking him if he's a kidnapper. He's kind of trying to placate her. It's what he basically says he took her because she's so pretty. It's it's horrible. It's really, really horrible. And the dash cam video doesn't show her last moments, but it picks up the audio from them because. He he's threatening her. He attacks her.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01] He's he's singing. This has not been made public, nor should it, because it's horrible. But you hear him kill this child and after sexually assaulting her. And so police confront him with this. Initially, he denies it. He keeps on this green van nonsense. And then when they start confronting him with the evidence, he he admitted it.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01] And he kind of like acts like, oh, it's my alter ego. Zero did this. So they're kind of playing along and OK, can zero tell us where she is? So he took them to the body. She was found in the Trinity River in Wise County. She was nude. And they were able to find evidence of blunt force injuries, signs of his violence of what this man did to this little girl.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01] Smothering strangulation. Her his DNA came off of sexual assault swabs that they did on her body. And he was arrested for capital murder and aggravated kidnapping. So what happened is, you know, and he claimed, oh, well, I accidentally hit her with the van. Then I strangled her because I panicked. Obviously not true based on the video, based on all the evidence.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01] It's it's that's just you have these cases where people realize, you know, a horror of what they did and how they will be perceived afterwards. And they try to tell a story that makes it sound better. Oh, I'm not a pervert who wanted to kill and rape a little girl. I just made a mistake and I hit her with the car and then I panicked. They realize that that sounds better to people. But, you know. It's not true.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_03] Refresh your wardrobe as the temperatures warm up without overheating your wallet. Shop our wonderful sponsor, Quince, and get premium luxury for less.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01] Quince is our favorite clothing brand for many reasons. The clothes look great. They feel great. None of that fancy expensive stuff that stays in the back of your closet because you hate wearing it on some level. These are clothes you'll be excited to put on again and again. Quince's clothing is high quality and enduring. All of our Quince pieces are crafted to last. And perhaps most importantly, you can actually afford these pieces. They're a great price and they never go out of fashion.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03] Quince doesn't do markups or middlemen. All their products are 50 to 80 percent less expensive than what you'd find at competitors. So they're affordable without sacrificing quality.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01] This spring and summer, you're going to love wearing their 100 percent European linen shorts and shirts from $34.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03] I love Quince's work shirts. I wear my 100 percent European linen utility shirt in Martini Olive all the time. It's comfortable. It's an elevated version of my usual style, but it looks crisper and more put together. Plus, it's very comfortable as the temperatures heat up. Most importantly of all, Anya loves the way I look in it.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01] Refresh your every day with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com slash M sheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash M sheet for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash M sheet. So this case was prosecuted in Tarrant County in Texas.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01] And again, he was charged with capital murder because she was under 10 aggravated kidnapping. And they're looking for the death penalty. So what happened was Horner actually pled guilty to the crime. So the crime actually skips the guilt phase. There's no denying what he did. And that makes sense. I mean, like you're you're an attorney in a case like this where it's literally on video.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, maybe not quite literally on video as in you see it, but you hear it and you see what he did. Like you see that he kidnapped her. Does that make sense that that would not result? Like they would not try to fight that to that extent.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_03] That does make sense, especially if it's potential death penalty case. When your client faces the death penalty and there is really solid evidence that he committed the offense, then what you're looking at is what can I do to save him from the death penalty?

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_03] And as you know, from our experience covering cases and sentencing, when judges decide or when the decision is made either by a judge or jury about how to sentence a person, look at aggravating factors and mitigating factors. And I imagine I'm not an expert on Texas law, but I imagine some aggravating factors to be considered by the judge or the jury or whoever makes the decision in this particular case would be, oh, he didn't make us go through a trial.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03] He admitted his guilt.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Makes sense. And so what we've been seeing recently, though, is not about guilt or innocence. It's about the the phase of trial that gets into what should the punishment be. You know, so a jury will now decide. Death or life without parole. The punishment phase is up to the jury. And so they've been hearing from experts.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01] We've had days and days of experts, different defense witnesses coming to speak about. Why trying to conceptualize why Horner may have done this. And you'll love this. You know, OK, it's the classic, you know, troubled background, abuse, mental health issues, lead exposure, effects of being exposed to alcohol as a fetus and autism.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01] I think I saw one expert. They were, you know, people were pretty ticked off, but they kind of felt like she was essentially saying that, like, him having, you know, like. I don't know if they were being fair to the expert or not. I don't want to weigh in on that because the expert may have been significantly more nuanced than this. And so I'm I'm not weighing in on this either way. But there was like this perception that it was like she's saying that he had a meltdown. And it's like that's frankly offensive to autistic people. Like, you know, like murdering a little girl.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01] Like, I mean, I don't know. I tend to be pretty I tend to be pretty open minded. I think about like mental health and stuff. But I think there's certain things that it's like. This isn't like. When it gets this heinous, it's like, I just don't care. You know, like you took a little girl from outside of her home, terrorized her, kidnapped her, brutally murdered her while sexually assaulting her. Like, I don't really care what your reasons are.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01] You know, maybe with the exception of like someone who's like severely intellectually disabled. Maybe someone who really is truly in the throes of. Psychosis to the point where they don't know what they're doing. But anyone who tries to cover up their tracks knows what they're doing. That's guilty knowledge. That's a guilty reaction. So I guess like, I don't know, I care about I guess like there's a threshold.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01] I feel like for the most part, I actually do care about how mental health might affect someone's behavior. And maybe weighing that into consideration in a lot of cases, you know, property crimes, maybe maybe acts of violence even. But in this one, I just I don't know. I'm just like. I think if there's a case for the death penalty, this guy gets it. In my view, if you believe in that, it's a heinous crime. I don't I don't always feel like comfortable with the death penalty.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's often arbitrarily given out. And it seems to be something that there's a history of iniquity with it, you know, in terms of who gets it. You know, African-American offenders might get it more often or there's you know, there's different statistics. There's different things you can look at with that. And certainly that makes me uncomfortable. Certainly the idea that like sometimes people get it for certain crimes and then in a state that doesn't have the death penalty, they don't get it.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01] I like it as a tool for prosecutors to be able to basically like get stuff done. But I don't know. I don't think it's the cathartic win for families and justice that people think it is. It's a long slog to a depressing and frankly, usually I imagine unsatisfying conclusion. I just think people should be more realistic about it, too. Like people, you know, it takes forever to do.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01] And by the time you get there, it's like I think it's it just prolongs the nightmare in many cases, in my view. That's just my opinion, though. But I think if you had a case where it was like. Death penalty. Doing something like this is definitely to a child, to a little girl. It was just waiting for Christmas. I mean, good Lord. I can't even. Yeah. I think in a just world. This would be a death penalty case if you were going to do death penalty.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01] I think people like this should be under the jail, as they say. You know, this is just irredeemable. There's no excuse for this. There's no mental health excuse for this. It's just. Because, again, I feel like I could say that because he literally he knew what he was doing. And we know he knew what he was doing because he lied about stuff afterwards and was trying to cover his tracks.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_03] Consciousness of guilt.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01] This footage of him actually driving around and people are blocking the road and he's all like honking and trying to get them out of the way. Oh, well, I need to deliver packages. And they're like, we're missing. We're looking for like a missing girl. Like a girl was kidnapped. We need to find her. And he's like, oh, wow. I didn't hear about that.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00] It's like, yeah. You know, mental illness, my ass.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03] So, OK, I'm going to move on and do another case in the great state of Texas, which is you reminded me is known as the Lone Star State.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01] It's a great nickname. That's probably one of the best nicknames of a state. That's up there with Empire State, in my opinion. It's very evocative.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03] T for Texas.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01] Lone Star. I mean, it's like it's kind of for Tennessee. It's kind of like it's evocative. It's a good. It's evocative. Yeah.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_03] We've been to Texas. We went to Texas together.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01] We shouldn't have. Not because anything's wrong with Texas. Don't come at me, Texas people. Don't come at me, Texans. I'm not insulting Texas. It's just we were it was poor planning on our part where we kind of just impulsively went to Texas to try to find someone who was a manhunt. It was a manhunt. We were we were we were like the Texas Rangers riding around on horses trying to find this guy. No, we weren't. It was nothing so cool as that. But we did not find him. It was a mess. We've talked about it on the show before.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01] But our jaunt to Texas. That's the only time I've ever been to Texas.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_03] Only time you've been to Texas.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01] You and that was Houston.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03] That was Houston.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01] Now. Now I remember that trip every time I heard that. You know, that Sir Mix-a-Lot song where he names all the cities. But you've been to Dallas as well because you're a you're a you're a JFK assassination head.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So I wanted to check it out. And this. So someone gets hurt in this story, but no one dies. So this this isn't quite as dark and as bleak as the stories.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01] My two were especially bleak this week. I just I felt like I saw them. I'm like, we got to talk about this. But, you know, it's definitely horrifying.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03] Someone gets seriously hurt. But he lived and. There's some idiocy. So.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01] Also, I was for a minute. I thought you were talking about your trip to Dallas. Like someone got seriously hurt. I was like, what?

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I went to Dallas.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01] A bunch of little pictures at that point. Were you convinced of a conspiracy in the JFK assassination?

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03] That time I was convinced he had acted alone. OK. Oswald.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01] But you're just going to assess the situation.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03] I've been reading about this place my entire life. I went to go to Dealey Plaza. I wanted to see it. I wanted to see some of the surrounding things just to have the experience.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00] Why not?

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03] I think I went there like maybe 2004.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00] Wow.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_03] You. You were just a child. You probably weren't even thinking about the JFK assassination.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01] I was not thinking about the JFK assassination. I remember the JFK assassination concerned me as a child because. Because my mom was a Kennedy before she got married. So I was like.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_03] She thought she might be targeted. They're coming.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01] They're coming at us. They're coming to get us. And yeah, I remember. I remember actually like asking my grandma about the JFK assassination because she. My grandma.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03] Was she involved?

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01] No, but she was Irish. I was like, what was that like? You know, we finally got an Irish American elected and then they kill him. So, you know. But yeah, it's a very. It's a sad situation where you have a president assassinated. So I was interested in it as a child, but not to the degree that you were. Yes.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03] You weren't in 2004 hopping on a plane. No. Going down to Dallas.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01] I wasn't trying to sleuth out the situation. Fourth grade on you. Breaks the whole JFK assassination wide open.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_03] That's when you were like arguing with Winnie the Pooh and stuff.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01] No, that was when I was three. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_03] So my sources for this are ABC13.com and the Houston Public Media dot org. Okay. So there's a lot of like wrong turns here. So let's start first of all with this guy named Michael Seery. So about 12, 13, 14 years ago, he gets in trouble. He is growing and selling marijuana.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_03] So he gets sentenced to prison for that. In my head, he gets sentenced to federal prison for that. And as a consequence of that, he is prohibited from having firearms. But there's also another consequence or something that takes place while that is going on. He's a married man. He's a married man. He's separated from his wife for this time while he's incarcerated.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_03] And during this time, she has an affair with a guy. So there's a number of things if you're Mr. Seery that you can do in response to that, I imagine. One is you could say, well, I understand it was a stressful time. I made some mistakes. I got sent to prison. I'm going to forgive her. And I'm going to work to rehabilitate the marriage and rebuild trust. That's certainly one option, isn't it, Anya?

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01] That's certainly an option, yeah.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_03] Another option is to say, this is too much. Once something like this happens, trust can never come back. I'm out.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01] And that's also a very fair and reasonable option.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_03] But apparently what he did is he stays in the marriage, but he like nurses this grudge.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that's healthy. That's good.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] And what he eventually decides to do, like a decade later, is I'm going to get involved in a plot to have this guy who my wife was involved with killed.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01] Are you kidding me? A decade later?

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03] A decade later.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01] Men would rather plot for a decade than go to freaking therapy. Jeez.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_03] And so he and a guy named Ricardo Obando and Matthew Rosas start planning out this crime because they know where this guy lives. So they say what you do is you follow him, you get his movements, you know, you get to know where he goes and when. They buy an unregistered car in order to like follow him around and learn his routine.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_03] At one point, Siri gives Obando $305 to is part of a payment for the scheme. So I don't know. Is that how cheap human life is? It says it's one of the many payments that were made. So I guess not. And at some point, they use a 3D printer to create a gun.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_03] And so back in January of 2025, Rosas drives Obando in this vehicle. They spot the victim. They spot their target on the way to work. They pull up beside him and they start shooting into his vehicle, striking him several times. Now, as I said, as I mentioned at the top of this, the guy lives.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_03] I imagine it's a terrifying experience. But the guy, thank God, lives.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01] How badly was he injured?

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03] Pretty badly. But he did. He did live. So here's the thing. It was the wrong guy.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, my God. Of course it was. Of course it was. Because these people are idiots.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_03] A lot of people move. You know, just because you lived in a location at one time doesn't mean you live there forever. So they were following the wrong guy. And the guy they shoot never had an affair with this guy's wife. So it was a huge mistake. Mr. Siri and Mr. Obando have been sentenced to life sentences.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01] Good. We don't need people like that. It's like not only because, you know what, it's like the recklessness and the stupidity. And it's evil to kill anyone, even if they cheated with your wife on you. Although, like, can I just can I just like say my own? I think adultery is terrible and wrong. Wouldn't you be more mad at your spouse for betraying you than the other third party?

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_03] The spouse is the one that owes you loyalty.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, exactly. And again, that doesn't mean you should be violent to your spouse or kill your spouse. But you can divorce. I mean, like, I can understand if someone's like, well, that you're dead to me. That's fine. And not actually trying to make them dead or do anything violent. Then you lose all the moral high ground that you would have had otherwise in my book. But because I don't think adultery is punishable by death. You know, it's just not. But I just don't get it when people fixate on the other party.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01] Because I mean, like, you just think you'd be more like, oh, the person who vowed to love me forever. Like, you're off the hook. But this other guy.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02] Let's get him.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01] Let's get him. Also, we're too stupid to figure out this is the wrong guy. I really hope that this poor man is recovering okay. I mean, that just sounds like horrifying. And really, even if someone survives, like, getting shot is no joke. That recovery can really be so difficult and disrupt your life in so many ways. And maybe there's certain things where you have pain forever. And, like, that's a really significant thing. So I'm glad that these people are.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_03] See, imagine how terrifying that would be. And you have no idea why. Sitting in your car. Yeah.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01] You have no idea why. And it's because just some idiots are just running around. And it's like, we don't need to have people like that who are doing stuff like that. And, I guess, running around. Because I just think that's.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_03] The victim was shot in the neck, torso, and hand.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01] My gosh. So the victim, what is the status or prognosis with him?

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_03] Well, he survived. That's all we know. That's all we know.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01] They're not letting us. Okay. That makes sense. Privacy and stuff.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01] Man.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_03] So these guys have a combination of the capacity to violence and anger with stupidity. Because they're targeting someone completely uninvolved. They just don't know what they're doing. So these are people, as you say, thank goodness they are off the streets.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. We don't have. Like, we just. I don't. Also, like, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, let's. People. You know. I don't know. There's certain people where it's just like, I don't know. I think you kind of lose your shot at society after this. You know. Because, again, it's like you're not even. Not that it would be okay if they were, like, smart about it or actually targeted the right guy. I think that would still be like, get out of here. But there's just something so scary about. You could be just sitting in your car, minding your own business. And two complete. I'm not going to. Idiots.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01] Are stalking you because they think that you're someone they hate, even though you're not. Like, you could be minding your own business. You don't have to actually make any choices that get you involved with bad people. You are just minding your own business. And they do this to you. And there's just something especially, I think, scary about that. Because it's like you could do everything right and still be shot up in your car because they're just people that stupid out there. And not a comforting thought.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03] Not a comforting thought. But, jeez.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01] I'm glad that guy survived, though.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_03] Thank goodness. The other thing, I want to go all the way to Sweden. You're staking your reputation that this is our first journey to Sweden on the cheat sheet. Somehow we have avoided Sweden until now.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_03] That ends today. That ends today. We're going to Sweden. And this is something I thought was interesting. I saw this in the Sweden Herald and also rte.ie, which is apparently an Irish news outlet.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But, I mean, I've actually been interviewed by them before.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02] About what?

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01] Um, I don't remember. It may have been during COVID when I was reporting on the cruise ships where all these employees and passengers were getting stranded on these, like, disease ships. Remember that?

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_03] I remember that because you were interviewed via Zoom.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm in a very dark room.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_03] Because you were in your bedroom and you didn't want people in Ireland to know what your bedroom looked like.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01] No, I was, no, I was, I was in, I was in like a different room in the house. I was in like the TV room. But I, it was very dark. And I look very pale.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_03] Didn't you arrange the darkness to.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01] Did I?

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_03] To hide and obscure the details behind you. That's what you told me at the time.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01] I don't remember. I mean, well, I didn't want to like, I don't want to dox myself. I don't know. But I remember, I just remember looking like a ghost.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03] You didn't want people to see because in your TV room back then on the wall behind you, you had a poster of your social security number.

[00:35:50] I didn't.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_03] And that would have been disastrous if people had seen that.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01] But no, yeah, the, with the, so.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_03] Especially since you've already revealed your mother's maiden name.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01] So RTE is, yeah, this is very, unexpectedly Irish centric episode. RTE stands for, I'm going to say it, it's in, it's in Irish Gaelic. I'm going to probably say it wrong. But I think it's, so it's Raggio Telefiche Aaron. So that's radio, television, Aaron. Aaron means Ireland.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_03] So radio, television, Ireland.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01] So it's like a big, it's a very big media concern there.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03] I admit I'd forgotten about you appearing on that outlet. And I certainly apologize for this. I would have looked them up to make sure they were legitimate.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01] Of course they're legitimate.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03] Well, they had you. Any outlet.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01] They looked to me for expertise.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03] That's a sign of quality and discernment, right? If they have you on the program.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01] Obviously. That's the mark of success.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03] If there's a news outlet that hasn't had Anya on, you should view them with suspicion.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01] No, they're very, very storied. I think their roots go back to like the 1920s to, you know, I mean, they were very, they're very, very legitimate. And we tip the hat to them.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, you were in the dark room. You have this light on you. You look very pale. You had very blonde hair then.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I used to dye my hair blonde. But now I don't anymore.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02] You just let it all hang out.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01] I just gave up. I don't try anymore.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02] I got my man. Who cares? Just let myself go.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just doing it. I'm letting everything. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, I am very pale. So, I mean, I wasn't, I was doing anything with that. Don't really go outside a lot.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_03] Well, you do now.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01] Occasionally.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03] With the dogs.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_01] I'm Irish. I'm like 100% Irish. The sun is my enemy. The sun is trying to kill me specifically. So, I always have to remember that.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_03] And you mean literally the sun in the sky, not like the sun of some mafia family?

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01] No, the sun in the sky. The star that our planet orbits around. As an Irish person, I know it is trying to kill me specifically and trying to give me skin cancer. And so, I'm wary of it.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_03] So, speaking of trying to kill people. So, apparently in Sweden, it's a thing for gangs to post basically one ads for murderers on social networks like TikTok.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00] Wait, what?

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_03] And they're really targeting children. Because in Sweden, if you're under the age of 15, it really limits your criminal liability. Oh, my gosh. Apparently, people on TikTok are saying, hey, Swedish kids come and kill for us. And the Swedish people won't stand for it.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_03] And they are passing a law to obligate the media barons, your TikTok tyrants, your Snapchat sirens. What? If somebody reports to them, hey, there's an ad for murder on your network, they have to take it down within an hour or suffer consequences.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01] Okay, there's a lot to unpack there. What do you think of that? Do you think that's reasonable legislation from the Swedes?

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I'm a big fan of free speech. But obviously, there are limits to free speech. And literally, I tried to find some of these murder ads on TikTok. I couldn't find any. So, I don't know what exactly they are. But if, in theory, you go on an outlet and say, hey, I'll give you this if you commit this violent crime.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_03] If you're soliciting someone to commit a crime, that certainly, in my mind, falls outside the protection of free speech. What do you think, Anya Kane?

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01] Far from it. You know, I don't want to tell, you know, the Europeans what to do.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_03] This doesn't affect your plans for your next podcast, right?

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01] No. There goes our next advertising campaign. No. I mean, I don't want to tell the different countries of different values and different things they want to do. But personally, I feel like if you have like a huge problem with it, I think it's reasonable to expect. I don't think this legislation is out of bounds. And I think that makes sense. But it sort of seems like the underlying problem is you have a bunch of murderous children that you can't do anything about.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe the legislation should also be changed in order to have some accountability for that. If it's becoming like such a problem, I understand like there are murderous kids. There just are. You know, I mean, like young people are terrifying on some level and they are not fully developed. So they can just do horrible things and, you know, kind of that. Some kids are just bad. I mean, like some might be raised poorly and others might just I think some people are born bad. But whatever.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01] You can say, well, if that's just a rarity, then we just deal with it when we deal with it. But if it's becoming like an actual societal problem, then you probably need to have something in there. I'm not saying, you know, prison for a thousand years for all the children who step out of line. But I am saying like maybe there should be something to deal with that. I mean, like if that's a problem, you should deal with it. Because having a bunch of juvenile delinquents running around doesn't sound like a very good time for anybody, especially those kids who might be being lured into gang life and murder.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, you're protecting the kids, too. You don't have to incarcerate them forever. But maybe there should be. And you know what? Maybe they're working on that, too. But the TikTok thing is just getting attention. So I'm not saying, oh, the Swedes are doing something wrong.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, and I think you make an interesting point there. Because the underlying problem is not so much the TikTok ads themselves, but it's the fact that people, I guess, are responding to them. Because I imagine like 12, 13-year-old Anya, if you saw a one ad in the paper for a murderer, you probably wouldn't go down there with your resume.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03] Or would you?

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01] Depends on what kind of day I'm having. How much I'm vibing with this podcast.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03] Now, you're waving your I want to comment sign. So there was something else you want to say about this?

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01] I just want to say, like, I don't, you know, I think this is actually a problem that a lot of places have to deal with. And we've seen this even in the United States. The United States can be more, you know, penalizing of children who do murders or are involved in this stuff. But at the same time, I remember there was a case we covered on here where it was like a kid shot a guy to death and then confessed later on. And they don't really know what to do with that kid here. You know, like, I think, like, there's a bit of like he was so young that it's technically not a murder.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01] So, like, they kind of are trying to keep when we last covered it, they were trying to keep him in like some kind of mental health thing. It's not really just Sweden. There can just be a, you know, what do we do if someone's so young that it's hard to imagine that they've kind of like formed that intent. But at the same time, you know, I don't know. Here's the other thing. I remember when we talked to our friend Malcolm Kempt. He's a great author. He wrote A Gift Before Dying, which is a terrific book. It's about a mystery.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01] It's a fictional mystery in the Arctic, in the Canadian Arctic. And he told us about this problem. And it's also reflected in the book. There's a lot of juvenile delinquency and even violence amongst very young kids up there. And under Canadian law can be difficult to deal with that and address it. And I think, like, I think sometimes we can. One thing that I think gets lost is, like, the kids in those situations are harmed as well.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01] And permissiveness in society towards juvenile delinquency and bad behavior and even violence amongst children is not doing those kids any favor. I feel like sometimes people are like, well, we're not putting them in jail, so that's nice. But, yeah, but we're letting them get increasingly damaged. And they're not going to be growing up to be productive and healthy and okay adults. So early intervention of some kind, even if it's not necessarily, like, through the legal system exclusively, I think is necessary.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01] But I do feel like it is understandably complicated. But it does sound like the TikTok thing, if they only do that, the gangs are going to figure out another way to get to those kids.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00] You know? Because it's too valuable. Yeah, I agree.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_03] So that was the end of our visit to the land of the great Anita Ekberg.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00] There you go.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_03] One of your favorite Swedish actresses. Or maybe she's one of my favorite Swedish actresses.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01] I think she's one of your favorites. I don't know who that is. Well, look her up.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_03] She did some great work.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01] My only real Swedish culture thing that I love is I am going to, you know, I'm basic. I'm a basic person on many respects. ABBA. So I grew up on the best of the ABBA CD. So that explains a lot about my musical taste.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_03] Your parents had a lot to answer.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's the best. Sorry if you, I mean, I guess if you hate having fun, then you don't like ABBA. But if you like, if you're loving life like I am, you're going to be cranking those ABBA tunes. I really think I love ABBA. Anyway, I'm not being ironic. I'm not being ironic. I love it. I just want to make, I don't want anyone to think I'm like some irony poison person who's like, oh, ABBA. No, I frigging love ABBA. I'll say it. Fine. You made me say it.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01] What is going, what are we talking about? Oh, we're done. Right. So we can.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. You want to talk a little bit about the dogs?

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01] It's going surprisingly well, actually. So we introduced a new dog to our pack. We had Nick. Our. Oh, do you want to do you want to talk about did we talk about the doggy DNA thing?

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03] I don't remember. Did we?

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01] So we put Nick into dog codus, which is like a certain not really. It's not dog codus. He didn't do any crimes that we know about. It's like they can test your dog to see what DNA or like what kind of breed he is. And we we've been telling ourselves like, oh, maybe he's this, maybe he's that. And it's basically it's what the shelter told us he was. They were spot on. He is a he is half husky. And he is like a third American bully.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01] And then like the rest of the percentage is filled in by, I think, a pit bull. Yes. Or like a Stafford or Terry or what one of those pit bull things where it's like, yeah, that's just a pit bull. So I didn't know what American bully was. I know that he bullies us sometimes. So it fits. But I think we've gotten better at establishing boundaries with him.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_03] I think so, too.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. He used to kind of be like, oh, I'm going to do whatever. And I'm so cute. I'll get away with it. But now we're like, no, you're not allowed to do that. He's really cute, but he's a sweetie. And he's been very excited with. So we got a new dog, Nora. Nora, we were told, is a husky and shepherd mix. And she's much more vocal. So she does the talking dog thing sometimes, which delights Kevin to no end and irritates me. No, I think it's cute, too. She likes to spin around whenever she's excited.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_01] She's really cute. She's six years old. And at first, Nicholas was a little bit too exuberant with her. He would kind of bother her a lot. And at some point, though, he started being, you know, we would encourage him. We would kind of pull him away and kind of remonstrate with him. And now he's very respectful. He'll come up and he'll kind of lick her and give her little kisses. And he's he's a much more of a gentleman.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01] So we when you're introducing two dogs, usually especially with like crazy dogs like huskies, I guess, you're supposed to just take it slow. So we're taking it extremely slow in terms of having them be comfortable with one another. But I say like it's gone very well. There's been a couple of moments where there were concerns or like he wanted to hump her or she wanted to take his special toys. But we were able to deal with those pretty well. And I think I think they like each other. She's gotten more patient with him and he's gotten more respectful of her.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01] So that's good. Everyone's learning. What do you think? You're just silent over there.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_03] Let's wrap.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, man. All right. As as our supposedly well behaved dog starts trying to. Oh, my God. They're both attacking Kevin now. All right. Well, we're going. Bye.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authority.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www dot patreon dot com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www buy me a coffee dot com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_03] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg dot com.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, my God. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01] I just want to say before we go, sorry for losing it during the outro, but our dog Nick literally jumped up and like grabbed the mic and started breathing into it. He's like, this sucks. Let me take over. Let me show you how to do it. So that's why I was laughing.