The Cheat Sheet: Roblox and Racism

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I'm Anya, and today we're going to be doing some cheat-cheat cases, two cases out of Indiana that I picked and then several others that Kevin picked. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and violence as well as sexual abuse.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00] And we're at CrimeCon. We're having a great time. We're staying at the Flamingo. I'm really loving those In-N-Out burgers.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You pledged to eat a lot of them. We're not recording this at CrimeCon, just so we don't confuse anyone. We're recording this in advance, but we will be in CrimeCon at the Flamingo, a hotel I think founded by a gangster. So, you know, keeping the crime theme going, we're really excited to meet everyone at CrimeCon and hopefully everyone's having a great time.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02] But I will say we tried to record this episode earlier and there was a technical issue and we lost a whole extended riff that Kevin did about dog casinos, casinos for dogs. So I just wanted to give you a chance to go on that ramble again. What? Yeah. Casinos about dogs? I felt like that whole episode was just becoming about what would a casino for dogs be like.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00] What?

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02] And you know what's ironic is our dogs were the ones who caused the technical issue that caused us to lose that episode. And they were promptly removed from the room after being remonstrated with.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00] Now, my recollection is you weren't fond of me talking about dog casinos. No, but I feel bad.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe I secretly paid them to sabotage it. No, I felt like you went on too long, but I felt bad that you lost all that. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to bring back your little riff.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00] Didn't you say in the middle of that that like the pit bosses would be pit bulls?

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02] There you go.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00] That was one of your lines.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02] No, I didn't say that.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00] And you said they would be betting with like dog biscuits for like the smaller bets and the bigger bets would be steak bones.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02] That's right. And I'm literally watching my dog try to get into more treats, like literally behind me. I mean, I'm just – there's going to be some discussions about these dogs at the end of this. But they certainly don't get a treat by going to the casino. They would not be allowed in the casino. Nick would be on a list. I mean, he just wouldn't even be permitted. I mean, he's just a – he's a miscreant.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00] You have a bit of a grudge against the dogs today, which we will explore.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02] The dogs turned out to be my enemies. I thought I was adopting two beloved family members that I could cherish. But instead, there are enemies in my midst, and their names are Nick and Nora, and they're conspiring to humiliate me and do all sorts of things.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00] Did you want to say any words about the premium stuff we're offering? Sorry.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02] I think I was going to do another five minutes about my paranoid ramblings about my own dogs.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00] That's why I interrupted you. I saw where that was going.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02] So my – yeah, we're doing – we're unrolling more premium features. So if that's something you'd enjoy, we are offering now Apple Podcasts subscriptions for $5 a month. And with that, you will currently get early episodes, lots of early episodes. So you'll be hearing stuff before anyone else.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00] Unless you belong to the Patreon because we're offering the same thing on Patreon, right?

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. I'll explain that. So the Patreon – well, let's go into the features first. So there's early and then there's ad-free. So you just have an ad-free listening experience. It's pretty much what you get on Patreon. And we'll also be putting our Patreon lives. We do two of those a month where we kind of hang out with listeners on Patreon. We'll put the audio from that on Apple too so you can listen.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00] I just want to make sure the Patreon people don't think –

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I can get to that. You're panicking over there. You're having a Patreon panic over there.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I care about them. I don't want them to think they –

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not going to – I did a whole post in Patreon saying, hey, don't get Apple because you're getting the same stuff. Now, for the people at Patreon who don't really like Patreon but might want to jump ship to Apple, you can do that. It's going to be – I don't want to join the lives personally necessarily because I can't figure out how to do that. But you can still hear them. So that's an option too. But I will just say, you know, Patreon and Apple are going to be very similar. You don't have to get both. We don't want people to waste their money.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02] Everything's expensive enough as it is right now. So we want to keep, you know, a pretty flat rate and just kind of give you some stuff. And in addition to that, we're going to be expanding our, I guess, premium exclusive content over time, getting you some more behind-the-scenes stuff, getting more into that, you know, just getting more, you know, kind of having a value add. So if you have any suggestions on what to do with that or what you might enjoy behind the paywall,

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02] murdersheet at gmail.com. And, you know, if you have other creators that you like and they're doing stuff with that and you think we should do it, you know, send us some inspo at murdersheet at gmail.com. And we just, you know, want to expand the show. Want to keep pretty much most of our case coverage in front of the paywall so everyone can enjoy it, but also want to, you know, be giving extra stuff to the people who really support our show so much and we really appreciate them. So want to have a bit of a balance there.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02] And, yeah, I think it'll be fun. And we have a lot of fun with the premium stuff on Patreon. So we think it'll be really fun on Apple too. So definitely check that out. Subscribe if you are interested and let us know what you want us to do if you have any thoughts.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00] Because we'll do whatever anybody asks.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02] That's not true. That's not true at all. We're not going to do anything anyone asks.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00] So what's an example of something we wouldn't do?

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02] I can think of many things. I mean, we're not going to do anything unethical.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00] What if someone asks really nicely?

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02] I think a great Patreon subscription service would be if you killed people's spouses for them. It's like, we're not going to do that. You know? I don't go for that. No can do. That's what Hall & Oates said.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. You're a Hall & Oates fanatic.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02] No, I'm not. But I do know that lyric.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00] You wake up every morning humming a Hall & Oates tune.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02] That's not true. But anyways. Shall we move on? You just... Whatever. What? You're like all spent from your stupid dog casino riff. That just went on for five hours. I had to listen to it. I was trying to make sure everyone else had to, too.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00] It was delightful. People would have loved it. But it's gone. It's lost media.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02] Destroyed by our dogs. By our freaking dogs who don't know how to behave.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00] And are currently... I can't recreate it. It wasn't written down. It was all magic off the top of my head.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02] He's really over-exaggerating, folks. You're not missing that much.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00] I think people would have been sending in ideas for the dog casino, names for the dog casino.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02] Well, maybe they will. You mentioned it. Maybe they will again. Maybe the dog casino will rise from the proverbial ashes of our dog's destruction. So shall we move on?

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02] And this is... And this is the cheat... Just let me finish it. And this is The Cheat Sheet, Roblox and Racism.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00] You missed your cue.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02] I did.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00] Were you just looking at stuff on your phone?

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02] No, I was just thrown off by your dog weirdness.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_00] That makes no sense. She was looking at stuff on her phone.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you were texting me about the dogs, about their crime con accommodations. So they're throwing everything off.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00] Why don't you tell us about the cases you selected?

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02] I selected two Hoosier cases, two Indiana cases. And I was delighted recently when you told me you were reading an old book or no, an old short story. And a strange stereotype of Hoosiers came up. Do you want to talk about that?

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, it said the stereotype for Hoosiers... What were you reading for a second? Oh, Henry. And it said that there was a stereotype that Hoosiers just said around writing novels. Because at that time, there was a number of prominent Indiana authors or novelists, such as Booth Tarkington, Meredith Nicholson.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02] Indiana's literary renaissance. So this, unfortunately, you know, whenever Indiana comes up on the cheat sheet, it's not for good reasons like writing novels. It's for, you know, crimes. But nonetheless. So my sources for this first Indiana case are a press release from the Indiana State Police as well as a couple of legal motions. And there are some gaps in this one, I will note, and some things that I'm still wondering about.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02] But I think we're going to kind of get into and maybe get a sense of why some of this information may not be immediately forthcoming and why we may kind of need to wait for further developments, whether that's a trial or a plea agreement, in order to really figure out some of what happened here. So let me read from you a statement from the Indiana State Police. Quote,

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02] So this first document is from April 30th, 2026. And it's the state's motion to file information under seal. So the state of Indiana, represented by Marion County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Ann Frangos, asked that the information and affidavit from this case be sealed.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02] They noted that the defendant was charged with sexual battery and that they were essentially concerned that if there's no seal, that the defendant, unidentified co-conspirators or others sympathetic to the defendant may hide or dispose of evidence or even flee or help this guy flee prosecution prior to the execution of an arrest warrant if such a warrant is granted.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02] So they asked that the defendant was taken until the defendant was taken into custody. What do you think about that development, Kevin, as far as like, can you seal it until we get this guy?

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, in some cases, certainly. Yeah, it's not super unusual.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02] No. And then eventually they also filed a motion to unseal information. And they talked about how they got this order filed and it was sealed April 30th. And the defendant has now been arrested on the arrest warrant. And so we don't need to seal it anymore. So it was that was lifted. From there, we have the order finding probable cause.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02] And this was granted from the court. And it talked about how the state got an indictment by a Marion County grand jury. Kevin, I guess one question people might have is like a grand jury. What what is that?

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00] A grand jury is ordinary people that the prosecutor in some cases will present a case to and basically say, what do you think? Do you think there should be an indictment or charges in this particular case?

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02] And what's the kind of truism in true crime about grand juries as far as getting getting a.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00] Typically, the cliche is the grand jury will do whatever the prosecutor wants them to do.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02] So you can indict a ham sandwich.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So, I mean, but it can be a very useful tool as far as, you know, getting that indictment. And this is what they found. So. And this is for the crime of sexual battery. The grand jury of the county of Marion under upon their oath or affirmation do present that on this date of in Marion County, Indiana.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02] And against the peace and dignity of the state of Indiana. So that is how they were able to get the indictment through a grand jury. And through that grand jury. By getting that indictment, it said, quote, the court now finds the indictment is a finding of probable cause for the charges filed by the state of Indiana and issues a warrant for the arrest of the above named defendant. So you get the grand jury.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02] You get them to indict the person. And then that's probable cause. Is that pretty much how it works?

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00] That's basically how it works.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02] So now this Healy is represented by attorney Ronald Gemma. Hope I'm saying his name right. And in filing defendant's motion for expedited initial hearing. He notes, Mr. Gemma notes that, quote, the defendant has surrendered himself on outstanding warrant in this matter on today's date by appearing to the authorities at the Marion County Sheriff's Department.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02] And then notes that this Healy resides in Stafford, Virginia. And flew himself to Indiana at his own expense to surrender to the warrant. And that the defendant has a $5,000 cash bond in the matter, which had been paid prior to the filing. The defendant requests the court schedule this matter for initial hearing at the court's earliest convenience to address the current sealed status of the matter. Conditions of bond and any other issues this matter currently under consideration.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02] So that is some of what's happening. You're really not getting a lot of details from this. You're not getting like kind of your probable cause affidavit put together by an investigator. It's it's kind of a bit scant on that. Now, to a certain extent, you know, no one should name a victim in a situation like this or somebody who's an accuser when it comes to sexual assault. I mean, that's pretty standard for media. But we're just not really getting a lot of information about what happened.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02] I was able to kind of dig around and go on Wayback Machine and find a little bit of information. About Healy and his career. So this is what a quote is from. It's called the Conflict Transformation Lab. So this is what it said. And this has been since taken down. That's why I had to go on Wayback. Quote, with over 23 years of combined federal service, Timothy C.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02] Healy manages FBI regional field office crisis negotiation programs, deploys for high risk operations and conducts training and research both overseas and domestically. Tim has a doctorate of international affairs conflict resolution from Johns Hopkins University and a master of international public policy from the same and has a master's in forensic psychology from Argosy University.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02] Tim merges academic, scholarly, and practitioners experience to advance structured professional decision making during crisis incidents. Tim has published numerous articles on hostage and kidnap ransom negotiations in the National Tactical Officers Association official publication, Criminal Justice and Behavior, and the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02] Tim is a high-value detainee interrogation group, augmentee, FBI adjunct faculty instructor, and FBI National Academy session 291 graduate. He was a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army where he deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. Okay, so you're kind of getting a sense of his background. This isn't really like this is somebody who's been in the FBI for a long time, obviously, and on a lot of like specialized teams.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02] So this has gotten definitely a lot of interest in the Indianapolis media market because people are, you know, disturbed by these allegations and want to know what ends up happening with this case. And we'll certainly be following along and hoping to get more information as things go on.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00] What's the next case?

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02] Another Indiana case. So this concern is a case that we've covered pretty extensively. That's the murder of Haley Busby, 17-year-old girl from Fishers, Indiana, who was abducted and lured by a predator she seemingly met on the Internet and who ended up murdered in Ohio. We've covered that. If you look at our webpage and, you know, you can find a bunch of episodes on her case. This is something that is related but is a little bit tangential.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02] My primary source for this one is the Indiana Lawyer, which is a great publication and also the court filing itself. So we'll talk about it. But essentially what's happening is Indiana's Attorney General Todd Rakita is suing the makers of different...

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02] Basically, in Haley's case, she met a guy on this Roblox gaming platform and was communicating with him on this messaging platform Discord. So Rakita is suing both of them over what he says is basically they're enabling online predators to get to kids and have failed to put up enough protections in order to stop this.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02] So the lawsuit he filed was in the Hamilton County Superior Court. And of course, Hamilton County is where Fishers is. That's where Haley disappeared from. And the company's Discord and Roblox are accused of violating the Indiana Deceptive Consumer Sales Act.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02] And they just basically say, you know, it's basically saying like they're just throwing young kids to these child abuse users and whatnot. So obviously, I'm sure those companies are fighting back. They gave statements to the Indiana lawyers sort of saying that they are safe and they are doing stuff to protect kids and whatnot.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02] I'll read to you from some of the introduction to this case as far as the actual lawsuit. So this is from the lawsuit. So, quote, spaces for children must be designed with children in mind. The attorney general on behalf of the state of Indiana seeks to hold accountable corporations that corral children into their online communities and then open the gates wide to adult predators. These actions, coupled with the deceptive promises of safety to parents, must be remedied.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02] Assurances about safety and security of children must be honest and straightforward to allow parents to choose what to permit and how to guide their children to safely and responsibly grow. Indiana's parents have felt the devastating impact of the dark side of these platforms. Earlier this year, authorities charged an Ohio man with crimes in connection with the death of a 17-year-old girl from Fishers, Indiana. She was reported missing in early January 2026.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02] Later, investigators revealed that her contact with this 39-year-old man began through playing video games, including the on the number one gaming site for kids and teens, defendant Roblox. The attorney general is empowered to protect Hoosier consumers through enforcement of the Indiana Deceptive Consumer Sales Act. This enforcement action seeks to hold Defendants Roblox Corporation and Discord Inc.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02] Defendants accountable for their decisions to prioritize profits and growth over safety of children and to deceive Hoosiers through calculated campaign to lull parents into a sense of security when their children are using Defendants products. Defendant Roblox operates interactive online gaming service Roblox will be used for both the corporation and the platform. And Discord owns and operates a voice, video, and text communication application that runs on desktop and mobile operating system Discord app.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02] Both platforms have known problems with preventing the facilitation and distribution of child sexual abuse material and the sexual exploitation of Indiana's minor children through their interactive online products.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02] The attorney general brings a suit to seek restitution and or disgorgement of Defendants' illicit proceeds, impose civil penalties, recover attorneys' fees and costs, obtain injunctive relief, and obtain actual damages, and obtain other such remedies, orders, and judgments as authorized by Indiana law. So what do you think about this?

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00] It's an interesting situation. It's always difficult to come up with ways to handle this sort of thing when it comes to social media, because if you start requiring a lot more of social media, it might have to become more regulated overall. But then if you don't require enough from social media, there's tragedies. It's hard to know where to strike the balance.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00] What do you think?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02] I think, like, if we lived in a town and there was, like, a big red button in the middle of the town square, and any time anyone went over and pressed it, a pedophile would materialize from midair and grab a child and run off, then, you know, and there was a company basically being like, you know, come press the button, then, you know, I don't know. I think people would probably burn that company down.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02] And I think online companies get away with a lot more because we perceive as the Internet is not being real. And we perceive some of this stuff is like, well, you know, teach your kids this. And, like, I think you should teach your kids about this. Don't get me wrong. I mean, get your kids to make good choices and not connect, you know, with weird creeps online. But at the same time, they're kids, you know. And they might be getting something out of getting some attention from an adult that, you know, that unfortunately leads them down a path that's very dangerous.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02] So it's like, I think I agree with you. I don't want to see, you know, like government control of everything online. But at the same time, I think there's probably room for some kind of happy medium. And I've heard so many bad things about Roblox and Discord in particular that it just seems like they are just a playground for pedophiles. That's my perception. That's my perception just based on the number of cases we've seen in this.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02] I think if that is, I mean, I think, like, if you are awash in pedophiles and also specifically marketing to children to some extent, especially with Roblox, there's a problem there. And acting like, well, we're doing everything we can. Well, are you? So I'll be curious to see where it goes. I mean, I don't know. I think parents should be extremely careful with what, like, platforms.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, honestly, like, I think a lot of this stuff probably starts early with maybe limiting your child's ability to get on some of this stuff, delaying it until they're a bit older and maybe a bit more capable of being savvy about this stuff. But at the same time, like, you know, that's not going to happen for every family. And maybe, you know, it might be some are already on this.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02] And it's just I feel like we're in a society that we often just blame the consumer, blame the consumer, blame the parents, blame the kid. And it's like, what about the companies that are like becoming gathering, you know, grounds for child abusers who want to sexually exploit children? You know, like. Like, if somebody has a bar in town and it's the Nambla hangout. I don't know.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02] And like people are going out and doing things to kids. Around that bar. I don't know. It seems like there is some responsibility there. And I would like to see, you know. Tech people who are making huge profits off of the backs of children in particular. I like to see them feel some kind of like need to protect those children. Like, I don't know why they wouldn't.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00] Well, some extreme behavior on social media is also the heart of one of the cases I wanted to talk about. So if you're done with your case. Absolutely. This is a Tennessee case. And I got it from WANE.com. So apparently there's a guy online who calls himself Chud the Builder. And.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02] What's his real name? We're not calling him that. Absolutely not.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00] Dalton Etherly.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00] He goes around and live streams himself in public places making racist comments to people of color.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00] That's that's his thing. He's I suppose trying to incite people or try to get reactions from people.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02] So he's like a miserable piece of garbage in other words.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. That's fair to say. It. A lot of people like this are attracted to social media where you just try to.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02] It's all performative nonsense. Yeah.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00] You do extreme things and you get attention. And even if it's negative attention. Oh I'm getting attention.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02] It heals your wound that your parents inflicted upon you by not paying enough attention to you at some kind of critical stage.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02] I mean. Oh I don't know. Or something like that.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00] Someone Claire Martin who works near where this guy does some of his antics says this guy is well well known in Clarksville Tennessee for antagonizing people to see what he can get them to do. And she says he's not a contributing member of society.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02] No he's not. So get a friggin job.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00] He was in court on some other matter and he got into some sort of a confrontation with someone and both he and the other person ended up getting shot. And now this man is being charged with attempted murder.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02] So the Everly guy.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Everly is charged with attempted murder.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02] Good. You can go away for a long time with that. And then no one has to deal with your nonsense anymore. Is the other guy being charged?

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00] I haven't seen any indication of that. The other guy hasn't even been publicly identified.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02] What are the circumstances of what happened? Was this yet another incident where he was trying to incite racial?

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00] That's not even clear. He was at court for some other matters and this was a confrontation that happened outside the courthouse. Again, he's known for saying racial things to racist things, racist things to people of color. I'll quote a line from this article.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00] In one video taken into market, he says to a passing black man, you chimping out. A reference to chimpanzees. He then uses the N word a number of times.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02] What a disgusting waste of space.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00] He's been charged with some financial things, too. He once became unruly at a steakhouse in Nashville, it says, and refused to pay a bill that was several hundred dollars. So this guy's a real piece of work. And I wanted to just highlight it. I think it's...

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02] This is what social media rewards.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. It gives attention to people who do extreme behavior.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02] Like in pre-internet times, this guy would probably write a bunch of racist letters to his local newspaper that would not get published. And he'd seethe in his house and, you know, die in obscurity. But the internet, all the other people like him give him power over the internet by giving him views. And also, frankly, everyday people do.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02] They may not agree with him, but they watch him because it's like, oh, let's see this guy get beat up or let's see what happens. And it's like the thing we have to do with people like this is ignore them. Is really ignore them. Someone going around trying to incite racial hatred is just not... It's like you're lower than, you know, you're lower than dirt. Like just go away and stop bothering people who are trying to go about their day.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, if you think this is funny or bizarre and you just click on it for your own amusement, ultimately you are giving him what he wants, which is attention.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just glad no one got killed here.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02] Like, you know, I'm glad no one got killed because, you know, that could ruin an innocent person's life here. And he obviously has been like angling for something like this happening for a while to get more attention. You know, I mean, I hope whatever it is that it's a slam dunk case and that people don't have to deal with this stuff anymore. It's like there's just such a strain of like just severe personality disorders amongst some of these online creators that are just completely going untreated.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02] They're not like they're not looking for help for this. They're not looking to help themselves or help themselves not hurt others. It's just like lean into it. And it's like that that is so it's such a toxic cesspool. I mean, I don't even know. I just like I just can't imagine like living your life like this.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00] I just want to briefly, very briefly. I got this from CNN. There's also widely reported elsewhere out of Texas. We are all well aware of the Austin Yogashop murders. We have covered it extensively on this program. We also I think we're all aware that four men were accused of that crime. One of them was actually sent to death row. Another was sentenced to life in prison.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_00] And those four men had nothing to do with that crime. These are Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott, Forrest Wellborn and Maurice Pierce. And so now the city of Austin will be paying $35 million to those men. And one of them has passed away and his share will be going to his family.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00] And I wanted to highlight that because I think you and I quite rightfully try to shine a light on what we call innocence fraud.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02] Which is rampant.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00] It's rampant. There are a lot of people out there who make claims. Oh, I'm innocent. I didn't do this. And they're lying.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02] And their podcasting allies are grifters.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Yes.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, like it's it. You know why? Because that is a better story for a lot of people and makes people feel like, oh, I'm a moral crusader versus like I'm listening to some kind of even handed coverage of anything.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00] And that's what people want, you know, other people just get duped. And sometimes people can just honestly disagree with us about particular cases. But I think even if you do honestly disagree with us about particular cases, you'd have to conclude this is a problem. It is widespread. There's an awful lot of claims that are just not true and end up victimizing the families of the victims.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02] And yeah, and also victimize everyone else's intelligence, frankly.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00] And I think it's right to be cynical about that. It's right to be suspicious.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02] I think you would be better off being suspicious of any claims of innocence versus being overly accepting. And you'd probably be right more of the time by being like more skeptical.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00] But at the same time, despite our skepticism, it's important to acknowledge and remember wrongful convictions do happen. And one of the things that upsets me most about innocence fraud is it makes the actual cases of wrongful conviction even more difficult to find and spotlight and to help the people who deserve it. These men had nothing to do with this crime.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00] They did not deserve what happened to them. This $35 million is an awful lot of money, but I'm not even sure it makes up for what they went through. Imagine being innocent and being sentenced to either life in prison or death. That's horrible. They did not deserve that.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02] And even getting a coup, I mean, I think they were let out and like the DNA kind of acquitted them to a certain extent. I forget whatever the legal maneuvering was, but they got out. But I think even for years before Robert Eugene Brashears, the serial killer, was identified as the true killer of those four girls, I imagine they kind of lived under a cloud of suspicion of like, well, they got out. But maybe they really did do it. I'm sure people were kind of like, I don't know.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02] And it is tragic how it affected all their lives. I know some of them were somewhat troubled to begin with, but they didn't do this. There's a difference between being like a troubled teen and being like a really like heinous murderer who does this to four girls. And I don't know. It just I imagine it really negatively affected all of them and their families, too. They're victims in this, too, as far as I'm concerned.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00] So, yeah, I think we should be suspicious of claims of suspicious is the wrong word.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02] Skeptical.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00] We should be skeptical of claims of wrongful conviction and we should look at them. But we can't let our skepticism blind us to the fact that there are legitimate claims of wrongful convictions out there. And the people who are affected by those legitimate claims deserve to be made her whole.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02] I agree. I think we just need to be discerning. And frankly, by being discerning, we are doing true cases of wrongful convictions or or other similar miscarriages of justice a better service because we can focus our energy on the ones that deserve support versus ones that, you know, someone's launching a podcast and they got to make a they got to hit Apple number one. You know, I mean, like that's what that's what so many of them are. It's just a cash grab true crime industrial complex.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02] We can do better by actually saying, like, here's a case where and also what happened in this case that made this happen, like the intensive, grueling interrogations. They'll they'll like just kind of going with it, even though there was, you know, the development of DNA evidence being more crucial. Like there's all kinds of lessons we can take from these that can also help innocent people in the future.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00] So with that said, can I start telling a story and then perhaps you finish it? Yeah, I guess so. Oh, dogs.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01] Ladies and gentlemen.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00] The dogs.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01] The dogs.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00] So first of all, I should mention that maybe some of you have seen Leave It to Beaver. The mother on Leave It to Beaver often wears like little dresses and frocks as she goes about her business in the house. Anya dresses like that at home.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02] No, I don't.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00] Well, certainly today. What? Certainly today you're wearing a dress.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02] Are you making me sound like some 1950s housewife?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00] I'm saying you always dress in a stylish way.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02] That's not true.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00] And today you happen to be wearing a little dress.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02] People, if you see me out there, I'm not going to be dressed stylishly. Don't get excited.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00] Are you wearing a little dress today?

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02] I wouldn't call it a little dress. That just sounds weird. But I am wearing a dress.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00] You're wearing a dress today. It's crucial to the story. And something happened at our house. We need a service person to come in and help us because God knows we're inept. And if we tried to fix something ourselves, people would die. Is that fair to say?

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01] I think that's fair to say.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00] I think the house would collapse. Follow the house at Greenlee. It would be a disaster. So someone's coming. And I said, well, you know, Anya, we have these dogs. Why don't we like tether them upstairs so that they won't bother this service person at all? And Anya says, no, kumbaya. I want them to meet the serviceman. And why don't you take over the story from there? You said it'd be all peace and love.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00] We'll all be out in the mountains thinking about how much we love Coca-Cola. It'll be wonderful.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that is what I envisioned, actually. And yeah, so the guy comes and I'm like, OK, we'll just kind of like have them on the leash and kind of introduce them to him slowly. You know, they need to get used to people and not trying to, you know, go nuts. So the guy comes in. And Nick in particular is like, I'm going to kill this guy. Like he was so mad that there was another person in our house. Now, we've had friends over. We've had Kevin's parents over. You know, we've had different people over.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02] But for some reason, he was really pissed with this guy. And it wasn't anything the guy did. It was just I don't know. He was in a mood. Maybe we handled it wrong. I don't know.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe one of us handled it wrong by saying, oh, hippie, dippy, love fest. It'll be wonderful. Kumbaya.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02] When we've done when we put them upstairs in the past, they bark so loud. I can't hear what the service person's saying. So I didn't want to I wanted to avoid that. I wanted them to just calm down and be well behaved for two seconds of their lives.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00] So totally unrealistic.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, which apparently is totally a totally way too much to ask of these freaking dogs. So anyways, so then the guy he's coming in and I'm talking to him and these dogs are going nuts. They're going crazy. I'm embarrassed. I'm like, look, you know, there's nothing more humiliating than like my dog is so badly trained. He's losing it right now. You know, we've tried with both of them. And it's just, you know, it's always, you know, two steps forward, three steps back. And. We get them.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02] And then Nick, I'm like, I'm just like, I've been betrayed by my dogs. Like, that's why I say like I've been betrayed. I get very easily embarrassed. So Nick is jumping up and his he's jumping up behind me because I'm kind of trying to hold him behind me to prevent him from, you know, kind of going at this guy.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00] And Ani is wearing a dress.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02] His nails get caught in my skirt and then he jumps up. So I'm like, I'm really hoping this guy didn't see anything. But it was it was certainly more than anyone bargained for today. And I was just like, I was just like my dog. Humiliates me in front of this working man who is just coming here to try to fix part of our house. And Nick, you know, is essentially trying to like, you know, make me look like a complete idiot in front of him. I'm just I'm humiliated again.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02] Kevin assures me he's pretty sure the guy didn't see my underpants. But I'm still devastated. And again, this is going to haunt me. It's just going to haunt me for the rest of my life. And Nick, the poor choices he made, the poor choices we made and sort of just it's just the poor choices one of us made. The poor choices you made for a freaking single. Hey, hey, Anya, there's a dog I want you to meet. Hey, he's a really mentally ill husky mix. But we can handle that.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I'm like, you're the one who wanted this insane dog. Everyone who sees it, like he looks absolutely insane when you take a picture of him. He looks insane. He's like he gets he looks normal one minute. And then the next thing you look over in his eyes are like all black. You know what I'm talking about? When you see a dog like that and you're like, whoa, you're totally nuts right now. He's so insane. I'm humiliated. My dogs are traitors. Nora didn't help matters. Nora was also running around. Nora's like, oh, he's freaking out. So I better freak out, too. It's like, Nora, you're you're a phony.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02] You don't even care. This doesn't matter to you. You're just doing it because he's doing it. It's ridiculous. And I'm just I'm my dogs are just bad people sometimes. And that's why I just have to. They're bad people.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00] In fairness, dealing with these dogs has made us lose a lot of weight.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Made you lose a lot of weight.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00] I've lost about 50 pounds. I think you've lost about 20.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. That is one thing I will say for Husky mixes. They force us to be walking and outside constantly. And I think we were both like really depressed because now I feel a lot better and a lot more energy because we're walking with them. So in that way, they're actually like really rude and unpleasant personal trainers. But in many other ways, they're just an embarrassment. The thing I always say about Nick and Nora is a lot more chill.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02] So like actually after after they were messing around with the wires and doing all sorts of stuff, we kicked Nick out of the office. He can still see us. He's chilling behind the baby gate. He's very mad at us. But Nora is just chilling in here with us because she's more relaxed. And she's just kind of snugged up on the couch. But this is what I say about Nick. There's like a tweet that I always think is funny. And I quoted it to Kevin and we decided this this tweet captures Nick's energy. Is that fair to say?

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02] So. So. The tweet is it's I don't know how much pop culture we should get into, but it's basically like there was a there was a time where the the singer Sabrina Carpenter was dating the actor Barry Keoghan. And this is how this is how the tweet goes.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02] And I guess he was playing the Joker. So it's like Sabrina Carpenter. So what's the Joker? Barry Keoghan. He's sort of like an evil person. So whenever we're out with Nick and he's doing something bad, we always just say he's sort of like an evil person. He really is. He just goes into his demon mode. I mean, but like not in a violent way, just in more of like a like this bad choices way. And he's so probably like we came. We gave him a walk the other day and he was all hyped up.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02] And I swear it was like I was walking him. It was like walking one of those balloon characters from the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. He's like in the air, all four paws well off the ground, just like hovering. Like, I mean, like he's like airborne. He's the bounciest dog I've ever met. He's like flying in the air. He's running around. He's doing like commando rolls. Do you remember that? Yeah. Like, what was that?

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00] But you've lost 20 pounds.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you've lost 50. I mean, I am impressed. I mean, I'm impressed with his energy and I'm done before anyone comes at me. I love these dogs. I did jokingly say that we should bring them back to the shelter after the guy left to the working man left. The workman left.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00] But he stripped you in front of a stranger.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. After he totally humiliated me while I was trying to talk to somebody about necessary home improvements. But I also love them dearly. I mean, they're just so crazy. They're just like a whirlwind. But, you know, if you're looking to get more physically active, I definitely. I mean, everyone told us. They were like, don't get the husky mixes. Don't get the huskies. They're crazy. Because you said you wanted a talking dog. And everyone's like, the huskies are nuts. And I definitely see that.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_02] But they're really funny. And they really amuse me a lot. And they're actually getting along really well. We were worried at first. We were worried that Nick was kind of too much of a brat sometimes. Like, and jealous. And we were worried he was going to resource guard. But we took it pretty slow in introducing them. And now they seem to really like each other. Sometimes they'll kind of snuggle a little bit. So it's very cute. He'll give her kisses, you know. So I think it's actually, you know, you got to watch them. Got to make sure that they don't start competing over some dumb thing. But I think they're, it's working.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00] So before we go, be honest. Be honest. What? In our lost episode, I went on probably for what, what? 10, 15.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01] An hour.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00] 20, 30 minutes. About two hours. Painting a delightfully whimsical picture of what a dog casino would be like.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00] And that was lost because of a technical problem. Because of the dogs. Anya, did you pull the plug?

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00] Because I don't think you were enjoying the picture I was painting of the dog casino.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02] It just seemed to be going on a long time. I was fine with the picture you were painting it. But the dogs were like, what were they like, playing over by you? And they were both jumping on you. And then, you know, Kevin is going back to his old habits. Because he, you know, we're recording on this desktop. He's got like, instead of having the audio appear so you can actually see it and make sure it's being recorded. He loves to have the text of our notes up so he can read it, even though he has a laptop.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02] And there were remonstrations about this recently. But, you know, we got to just keep him. We got to monitor the situation. That's my motto. Got to monitor the audio situation. But these dogs, yeah, they're funny. They're just menaces, you know?

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_00] I didn't even know you had a motto.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_02] Well, that's my motto. So that's... I got to monitor you and them, apparently, and the audio.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00] So is that what you want on your tombstone? Anya Kane, monitor the situation.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02] No. I don't want that. What do you want on your tombstone? Just cremate me and dumped me somewhere. I don't know.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe dump you in an ash heap behind the dog casino. It's not like the dog mobsters murdered me. Well, you wiped out our dream. The picture I painted was so scurrying. I didn't do anything!

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02] I didn't do anything. And I even contributed a little pun to you, because we're going to be staying in the Flamingo right now. I mean, I guess it's... I guess we could tell people that. We already have.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01] I guess we did. We're doxing ourselves in Vegas. It's a big hotel.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00] We're not giving out our room number, Anya. Don't worry. Aren't we? That's for the subscription people. So, yeah.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02] But, yeah, I said, you know, you said, what would it be called? I said, it could be called the Dingo. So, see, I was trying to support you in your dog casino dreams. I just thought it was like you were, like, acting like people can come there with their dogs. I'm like, the only people who would come there would probably be pretty severe gambling addicts.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_00] Let's not try to recreate the magic of the dog casino.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Fine. It's gone.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_00] It's done.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01] The magic. And you're blaming me. I think you pulled the plug. The rift caused a rift in our marriage.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02] I didn't do anything. I don't know how I, what did I, what did I train the dogs to go interrupt you and pull a wire? Or is it more likely that the dogs correctly see you as an easy mark? Yeah. Yeah. No. Okay. Let's talk about this.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00] Let me say this and then we're at. You're saying I'm an easy mark. You are. You're the fun parents. Which, which one of us was publicly stripped today?

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02] Me, because I was trying to enforce discipline.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_00] They kept their.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02] When I tell the dogs to do something, they do it more often than not. When you tell them to do something, they're like, ha ha ha ha. And then like suddenly you're on the ground being like, you know, licked and bitten and all this stuff. They, they, they respect my authority. You are not the fun. You are the fun parent.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_00] And yet I was fully clothed.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_02] Because you're not wearing a dress.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00] They, they, they, they said, let's leave Kevin's pants up.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02] I would say. You're losing a lot of weight. So I would not boast about this because there's like a non-zero chance something happens on

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01] a walk at some point.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00] I think the dogs have too much respect for me.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01] I, I don't think that, I don't think that's true at all. I think Nora is more respectful of both of us, but sometimes she just wants to add to the chaos that Nick is creating.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_00] I think we need to go.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01] All right. Bye everybody.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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