The Cheat Sheet: Sun Drops and Stabbings

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[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01] I'm Anya and today we're going to be talking about a number of cases on the cheat sheet including two cold cases and two Indiana cases. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and sexual assault as well as violence.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_03] So now that we're back, Anya, from CrimeCon where I'm sure we had a great time, you've become a little bit of a homebody. You're just sticking around Indiana for your cases.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Not, I'm all traveled out, had a great time in Las Vegas with all the wonderful CrimeCon people, I'm sure. We're recording this on May 27th. So, I don't know, hopefully it wasn't a disaster that we're looking back on, but I doubt it would be.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Are we creating like a time paradox here?

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. We're doing something. Some, like Anya's and Kevin's from the futures are going to like appear before us and tell us to do things differently. Right?

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03] Well, let me just get started. Let us hit the button.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01] From the man who gave us the friggin' endless cereal riffs and the cornhole riffs and all of this.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_03] That was too much.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_03] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're Murder Sheet.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Sundrops and Stabbings.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01] All right. So, I think we're starting out with my Indiana cases.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02] That's right.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01] I can't believe that was just so abrupt. I think, are you okay? Fine. Is everything all right? Are you so drained from CrimeCon, which hasn't happened yet as of this recording? I feel like everyone's going to be worried and want to check in on you.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_03] Everything is fine.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01] Everything is fine as he drops his phone. All right. So, my first Indiana case is news that we got a press release from the Fort Wayne Post of the Indiana State Police. And I also did a little digging on newspapers.com through... Yes?

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_03] I would say, you're very familiar with Fort Wayne. We spent some time in Fort Wayne where we were covering the Richard Allen trial. Our dog Nick is from Fort Wayne. There used to be a great Lincoln Museum there.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01] It had... We went to a restaurant with wonderful grilled cheese.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01] That was great. And you... I don't think I had any, but you were very enamored with it.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03] I described that grilled cheese to you so eloquently. I painted such a picture of that grilled cheese in your mind that you almost feel like you tasted it.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01] And also, no offense, Fort Wayneians, but worst McDonald's I've ever been to in my life. A scary McDonald's. But a nice city, nice people. And I remember one time we were walking around and someone pulled over and they're like, murder sheet. And we're like, hi. So we had a nice conversation with him. So I always have fond memories. And most... One of the most beautiful courthouses like that I've ever been in. Remarkable courthouse. Nice people.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01] Unfortunately, this is about a bad thing that happened to a young woman from Fort Wayne. And the only good news is that there's been answers delivered in this. But as I mentioned, my source was the Indiana State Police press release. But I also did some digging with the Columbia City, Indiana commercial mail, which had a little bit more information in that. So this concerns... Oh, actually, weirdly enough, Fort Wayne has been on my mind for a different reason.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01] So I've been reading this series by the author Frederick Brown. First book was The Fabulous Clip Joint, which also involves Indiana, specifically Gary. Second book is Dead Ringer. They spend a lot of time in Evansville, South Bend, Indianapolis, and then Fort Wayne is a big part of the action. So if you're looking for an Indiana mystery, I couldn't recommend the series more highly. I loved it so much. I'm loving it. I'm on book three now. I'm going crazy.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01] But anyways. So 25-year-old Angela Sacco was a woman living in Fort Wayne. She had a two-year-old son in 1997. I've seen some indications online that she was working at a club called Poor John's in Fort Wayne. I don't really know what the nature of that club was or if that's confirmed.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01] But according to a press release I received from Sergeant Wes Rolater on May 26, 2026, she was last seen during the early morning hours of December 21, 1997. And that was at her place of employment. And unfortunately, that day, Sunday, December 21, 1997, right before Christmas, she was found deceased in Huntington County.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01] That is adjacent to Allen County, where Fort Wayne is. And this was the Huntington County Reservoir property belonging to the reservoir off County Road 100 East North, north of County Road 100 South. And this is, again, in Huntington County. So these are the agencies that worked that case starting in 1997.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01] The Huntington County Coroner's Office, the Huntington County Sheriff's Department, the Indiana Conservation Officers with the Department of Natural Resources and the Indiana State Police. So they did an autopsy and they found that the cause of death for her was stabbing, stab wounds. Now, another source I used was the Indianapolis News and the Associated Press.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01] They listed Angela M. Sacco as being the first homicide in Huntington County since 1995. And the coroner working on her was acting Huntington County Coroner Bruce Myers. They described her body as partially clothed and found near a remote parking area. There were tire tracks along a ditch. And at the time, they felt that she had been killed elsewhere and then dumped there.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01] So according to the state police, this was a pretty robust investigation. They interviewed like 100 people. Detectives just simply never found enough probable cause to charge anybody. And they investigated it for years. They the Indiana State Police said they they spent a lot of time on it for 29 years. And then in 2024, they formed their cold case unit. So actually, that's another reason we went up to Fort Wayne not not too long ago. I guess like about a year ago.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01] We interviewed Captain Kevin Smith, who was one of the real. I think like founding. People within the cold case unit for the state police. He's been associated with a lot of different cold cases being solved. He's really cool. I enjoyed talking to him. We talked about a different case that he solved. And, you know, I thought it was his words always ring in my head.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01] He said being a good cold case detective is basically waking up every morning and wanting to bash your head against a wall, but being excited to do so. And I think that's true. But this cold case unit started really focusing on this murder. They wanted to basically see what they could do with DNA now that there have been so many advancements in that technology. So 28 years after she was murdered, they collected evidence that had been preserved from the crime scene.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01] They submitted it for testing. And now here's another person we talked to recently. I don't think this episode this episode will be out by the time this comes out. So this is kind of cool. Just happened this way. I didn't plan it. But they sent this evidence to Identifinders International. That's a forensic genealogy company in California. Notably, it was founded by Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick, who we just heard from this week. She is unless our schedule gets moved around, in which case I apologize.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01] But Dr. Fitzpatrick is one of those folks within true crime words. Like, she's had such a big impact. The Phoenix Canal murders. She was thanked specifically in the Yogurt Shop press conference. I mean, she's done so many cases and has had such a big impact on the use of genetic genealogy. So she's awesome. So they were working with her. And I remember in the interview, she's like, yeah, I've done a lot of, like, Indiana cases. So I guess this was one of them.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01] But anyways, they developed a DNA profile with the single nucleotide polymorphism or SNP DNA testing. And then in February 2026, the forensic genetic genealogists further identified a candidate suspect based on that. That suspect's name? Stephen L. Schlater. And they confirmed through STR testing, a different type of DNA testing, that he was the contributor of DNA at the scene.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01] And what the press release says is, quote, ironically, he had been released from federal prison on another case in the spring of 1997, just five months before Angela's murder. Sadly, this piece of human excrement died in 2021 in Huntington County. So he will not he's not alive to know the shame of being identified as a murderer of a young mother. So that's too bad.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01] You always like it when these people are alive to suffer and have everybody know, including their friends and family, what an awful person they are. That's what they deserve. But he he died. So, you know. He's probably suffering somewhere else. But anyway, so his last known residence was Markle, Indiana. I actually found this dude's Facebook. It's so creepy because of how normal it is. He's just posting a lot about car racing. There's nothing on there.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, I just did a skim, but there's nothing on there that would make me be like, oh, my gosh, he's so weird and creepy. It just shows you someone could have some, you know, normal presentation and be harboring an extremely dark secret. You just don't know. But Huntington County Prosecutor Jeremy Nix said that if he was alive, if Schlater was alive, he'd be charged with her murder. And you can understand why DNA matched him to it.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01] Here's a quote from Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick. Identifinders International is proud to have supported the Indiana State Police to bring long overdue answers to Angela's family. This case is another example of a case that would not have been solved without the use of forensic genetic genealogy. And this is what the Indiana State Police said. Quote, the conclusion of this case again demonstrates the tenacity of the Indiana State Police Cold Case Unit seeking answers for victims and their families.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01] The professionalism and expertise displayed by the initial responding law enforcement officers of the Huntington County Sheriff's Department, Indiana conservation officers and Indiana State Police preserved evidence that yielded answers nearly three decades after Angela Sacco's tragic death.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01] The work ethic of detectives from the agencies combined with the assistance of numerous witnesses, the Huntington County Coroner's Office, the Huntington County Prosecutor's Office, plus advancements in scientific technology enabled the detectives from the Indiana State Police Cold Case Unit to assemble the pieces of this nearly 30-year-old puzzle. I wanted to find out more about who this creep Schlater is. And actually, if anyone knows him or his family, get in touch. I want to know about this guy. How do you do something like this to a young woman?

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01] And is this the type of offender where did he have some kind of pre-existing relationship with her that then he something happened where they had an argument or he attacked her or he wanted to cover something up? Or is this a situation where he stalked and murdered her and she was a stranger to him? I want to know because I think if it's the latter, then you wonder if he did it before. You know, I'm not saying not everything's a serial killer.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01] There's I think is much more likely for somebody to kill one person and never do it again. That's way more. I know it sounds weird to people, but I think that's way more common than we like to think. We like to think that people are just compelled to kill. And it's like, no, I think it's a choice. And maybe somebody does it once and they don't do it again. But I'm just curious. So if you knew this family, if you knew him, all I was able to find out was that he got divorced a bunch of times.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01] He he was, I think, busted for battery at some point. That may have been what he was in jail or prison for that they kind of alluded to earlier. But, you know, like nothing. I didn't see anything that was like, oh, my gosh, like, you know, but it also just shows you like if someone's violent against people, maybe they should get longer sentences. Just an idea. Everything's expensive.

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[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01] Scammers aren't waiting. Neither should you. Go to greenlight.com slash msheet right now to get started. That's greenlight.com slash msheet. Greenlight.com slash msheet. Um, but from there, I, uh, I looked at him on newspapers.com. Really didn't find much.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01] In January 18th, 1954, he appears as having been admitted to the Whitley County Hospital on Sunday, January 17th of that year. He's listed as being from Churubusco. That's a small rural town in Whitley County, Indiana, which is likely named, I imagine, for the 1847 Battle of Churubusco, where Winfield Scott, right? Everyone's favorite.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01] Um, in the Mexican-American War, his troops took heavy losses from pretty sustained Mexican resistance, but he did prevail. Gotta love Winfield Scott.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03] I just, I just want to interrupt you to note the extreme enthusiasm you exhibited when you mentioned the name Winfield Scott. And you had a look on your face like you imagined the listener was also excited. Oh boy, a Winfield Scott reference.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01] All the Winfield Scott heads are going nuts right now. You can't see them, but they're all clapping and smiling and nodding their heads along with me. I'm sure we're going to get a lot of feedback where people are saying, you know what, the show's great. Love you guys. More Winfield Scott, please. He went to William & Mary like I did. So I always, always got to tip the hat to him. And, you know, he was, he was the commanding, you know, he was in charge of the Union Army in the beginning. Didn't work out for him, but, you know, he was very old.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_03] I think I see behind you right now in our home, a future Anya coming to tap you on the shoulder and say, Stop talking about him. Let's move on from Winfield Scott.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01] But this guy, this creep who's not an honorable general like Winfield Scott is listed in the Columbia City, Indiana commercial mail as being an eighth grader from Churubusco in May 20th, 1961. So he's got, he got married and divorced a whole bunch of times. I want to know if any, if, if, if any women who were with this guy want to talk to me, I would love to talk to you if anyone knew these people.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, I see he got divorced in 2020. Um, it looks like he got divorced in like 2006. Um, there was a bunch of like legal complaints and stuff, small claims, nothing wild. The thing that was kind of most notable was aggravated battery and intimidation from 1993 prior to this murder and, um, harassment in 1991.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01] You know, usually these people are just violent misogynists and I use misogynists because they mostly pick on women. But, you know, it's like it just escalates. And, and I, that's why I'm personally like for much more strict sentences for those kinds of crimes. You know, like it's just, I think those are some of the worst people in society. Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm curious in learning more, but I'm not sure if we ever will. Oftentimes people who know these people just are embarrassed to have known them and they just don't want to talk about it.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01] So I understand that as well. My second, but anyways, I mean, I mean, well done on, on everybody for figuring this one out. And also just like got poor, I just poor woman's family. I just feel so bad for her son and her, uh, just loved ones who, you know, this is sure been weighing on them for years. But I hope the answers give them some peace, even though this guy will never be held accountable for what he did to her. So the next incident is something we're covering on May 27th.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01] It's 2026. So I'm sure more details will be released between now and this cheat sheet going out. So just know that this is kind of an early draft, but I think it's important to talk about because, um, it is a situation that you see a lot, but it's also another Indiana case this time up in Hammond, Indiana. Um, and my source for this is also a press release from the Indiana State Police from Sergeant Glenn Fifield dated May 26th, 2026.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01] A lot, a lot was going on today, that day, unfortunately. I mean, I think the Sacco news was good in that they found the killer, but with this, it was not good. So there was a shooting of a Indiana State Police trooper in Hammond. I'll kind of break down what happened and then we could maybe talk about it. So, um, and that, and this trooper has not been named yet.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01] I'm sure the name will come out before now and then, but, you know, all we know right now is that they were a state trooper and this, um, they were a canine handler. So, um, the, it was shortly after midnight, a state trooper conducted a traffic stop. This was Indianapolis Boulevard in Hammond.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01] It was around, it was on, um, I-94 and it was at the, uh, EB and at the 2.4 mile marker. So they stopped a gray Hyundai Elantra. It's a traffic violation. And during this stop, something's going wrong. So the trooper requests backup and assistance after dealing with two what appear to be non-compliant occupants in the vehicle.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01] And the trooper actually holds these people at gunpoint. Things are that, you know, things are that out of control pretty quickly. And, and told the dispatcher that, you know, needed other people to come and respond to this, um, and that he had them at gunpoint. And, um, a number of officers from other agencies arrived. Two officers from the Lake County Sheriff's Department. Lake County is where this occurred. An officer from the Hammond Police Department.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01] And they approached the vehicle. And the driver of the, um, Elantra produces a handgun. And there is an exchange of gunfire between this driver and the officers. So the driver was struck by a bullet or bullets, it's unclear, by gunfire and died at the scene. And, uh, the handgun that he was shooting with was recovered from the scene.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01] And the Indiana trooper was also shot and was shot in the chest and was taken to, um, Munster Community Hospital for treatment. And, um, has been released. So he's okay. So that's good. But the, uh, the shooter was identified, was, you know, taken to the Lake County coroner. Was identified as 34-year-old Erin Barnes from Gary, Indiana.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01] Autopsy there is pending as of right now. And it's still being investigated. Um, there was a 34-year-old female passenger who was taken into custody. And was taken to the Lake County Jail on a 48-hour probable cause hold. It's, no charges have been submitted at this point. Um, but basically they have 48 hours, uh, to do so. Or they will be, this woman will be released.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01] And so it's all very kind of, like, sketchy and preliminary. No other officers were injured. And while the canine was president when this happened, um, the canine was not shot or injured either. But either way, pretty scary situation. Um, I don't know. I think these traffic stops, like, you always, like, watch, like, shows and stuff. And you're like, oh, everyone's, like, just shooting it out. But I feel like these traffic stops are, like, the probably, like, I don't know.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01] My perception is, like, some of the most dangerous things. Because you never, like, you might just be pulling over someone normal. Or you might be pulling over someone that you're, like, is going to shoot you.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, you never know.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Which is scary. But, I mean, I hope this trooper recovers okay. I just think this is, you know, it's a scary society when people are just, like, going to start blasting over, like, what? Like, a traffic ticket? Like, who cares? Right?

[00:25:20] Yeah.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01] I just don't understand the mindset of, like, yeah, I'm going to blast my way out of this. Like, he got himself, like, now he's dead. And he shot somebody. What was the point of that? I don't know. Who knows?

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03] Who knows? Who's to say?

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yep. Anyways. Go. Let's take, let's get out of Indiana now. Indiana's getting chaotic. Let's go.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. You have become so homebound since our return from CrimeCon. What? You just don't want to leave the state of Indiana. Well, guess what, sister? We're leaving Indiana now. We're hopping on the Cane Plain and we're heading down to North Carolina, which is, you like to remind me, is the home of many fish camps. This is where you would, like, go and you would get fish. And then you eat it. And then you get back in your car and you enjoy the rest of your day.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_03] That's my understanding of the fish camps. I went to a fish camp once and I enjoyed it.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01] I thought you said you weren't in love with the fish there.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03] Well, you don't have to, like, marry each piece of fish. It wasn't like, oh, my God, this is the best fish ever. If it was, I probably would have quit my job and moved to the fish camp.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you'd be camping out right now.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01] I'd never have met you. Yes.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03] I'd be like the fish camp equivalent of one of those Grateful Dead followers. I'd just be following the fish camp from town to town, even though I don't think they move.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01] But you still do it, just for the vibes.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01] I like it.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_03] If it was the best, that's what I would do. I know. You know it. I know. I know. So I'm not saying it was the best fish ever. Right. It was just good fish.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01] Good fish.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_03] Good, wholesome American fish. Well, I'm really glad. There's nothing wrong with that. What?

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01] You're just, I married an insane person.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_03] You're the one talking about alternate Kevins and Annias from the future coming to give us their dark warnings about problems with the episode.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01] Honestly, we could have that as a feature. I mean, that would help us a lot. If we could work that out.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_03] My source for this story is the Charlotte Observer. And then I also got some additional information for this from WBTV. This is another cold case. And the thing to remember about these cold cases is they're all tragedies.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_03] Whenever someone dies, that's a whole universe of memories and connections to others that is lost forever. That's always difficult, even if that happens under natural conditions. Yep. It's just especially awful and challenging when it's a murder. And it happens in such a violent way. And then that becomes even worse when there's no answers.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] And they recently got some answers in a North Carolina case that's really haunted the community for almost 20 years now. This is a case that happened at the Sundrop Bottling Company all the way back in 2008. A woman named Donna Barnhart, who was the office manager. She was there.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_03] And also a guy named Daryl Knowles was at the plant applying for a job. And they were killed. They were killed on the morning of June 13, 2008. And it's believed that they were killed during the course of a robbery. But for close to 20 years, there were no answers.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_03] We still haven't gotten a lot of details about how answers have arrived. But there has been an arrest made. It is a 43-year-old man named Johnny Stephen Talbert. I don't know if this was DNA or something else.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03] But so far, all we know is the police have indicated that this result came about through going back and looking at old leads and working the case more and figuring things out. One thing about Mr. Talbert that I think is worth noting, He was arrested all the way across the country in Port Angeles, Washington.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_03] And since November of 2011, he has had 288 contacts with the police department there, including 14 arrests. And two of those arrests were on felony charges. So this is a person. We don't draw conclusions based on a person's character. You can be someone who's arrested all the time.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03] That doesn't mean you necessarily committed every crime imaginable. But it does offer some insights into this person who is now facing these extraordinarily serious charges. And all I can say is I hope the families of the victims and I hope the community that has been looking for answers for so long, I hope this is the beginning of them finding some sort of closure.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01] We don't live in a scary world in the sense that everyone's just nuts and running around doing stuff like this. It is a small percentage. And if someone cannot keep their life together in a way that they're having that much contact with police, I support just locking them up. Like, throw the book at them. It makes society better. People like this should not be roving around. You know, it makes life worse for everybody else.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01] And at the worst, at like the most egregious, it leads to situations like what happened in North Carolina at the Sundrop factory, where two innocent people, a woman doing her job and a man applying for a job, were gunned down brutally and it traumatized the community, their loved ones, everybody. Just so this guy could, what, steal a couple bucks from the friggin' vending machine? I mean, and if you're thinking, well, that's a wild reason to kill people. People kill people for all kinds of dumb reasons.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01] It's not elaborate. Like, it's not interesting most of the time. It's just violent, horrible people doing violent, horrible things. And I don't know. It doesn't surprise me that they're a repeat offender. And I agree with you. Being a repeat offender can be someone with mental issues or whatever. But even then, it's like, I don't know, they shouldn't be out and victimizing everybody else in society. I'm sorry. Like, it's ridiculous.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_03] So, I want to cover one more case. This is a Michigan case, our neighbor to the north. My source for this was M Live. And it touches on something you just mentioned. Before I get to that, I'm covering this case for a couple of different reasons. And one of which is simply the fact that the victim of this case deserves to be remembered.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_03] So, what happened is a man named Omar Brogdon shot and killed a guy named Orhan Hosik. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing those names. During a meetup to sell some goods on Facebook Marketplace. Mr. Hosik is someone who had some challenges in his life.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_03] He had cancer when he was a child. And because of that, he had some facial disfigurement. I imagine that can be quite challenging to live with. So, this is a guy who went through a lot in his life. And by all accounts was doing well. And he certainly did not deserve to have his life snuffed out in this way. And he deserves to be remembered.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03] And my heart and my sincerest good wishes go out to his family and all those who loved him. But now I want to talk about the other reason why I wanted to cover this case. Is because you may be wondering, why did this murder happen? Why just because there's a Facebook Marketplace deal? Why would that result in murder?

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_03] And what happened is these two men got into a discussion, argument, what have you, over which sports car brand was better. Mercedes or BMW.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02] What?

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03] And that's what led to the murder. And I wanted to highlight that because I think a lot of us who are, for lack of a better word, normal and who are rational. Relative term. And who spend time contemplating mysteries, either real-life mysteries or fictional mysteries. When there is a crime, we want to say, well, why did this happen? What was the motive?

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03] And maybe unconsciously we have an expectation that the motive is going to make sense. Like, ah, yes, he killed him because he was about to expose Richardson's role in the Hendrickson affair. It makes perfect sense.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01] Makes sense.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_03] But in real life, oftentimes there is not much of a motive. In real life, there are a lot of murders that happen because of this. Because a couple of guys got into a stupid argument and it went too far. And if you have expectations when you look at a crime that there is going to be some big elaborate motive that is going to make perfect sense to you,

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03] you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. And I feel that some people in some discussions I see in the true crime space, they take the attitude of, oh, there is not a big elaborate motive that explains this person's role in this crime. Therefore, this person must be innocent and must be being set up.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_03] So I think when people have the expectation of a motive that is elaborate and makes sense and that expectation is not met, it sometimes leads them to bad conclusions. And I just suggest, remember the tragic tale of Mr. Hozek who lost his life for just a stupid reason and realized there are a lot of other people out there who are in that position.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_03] A lot of lives are lost for either no reason or the stupidest reasons imaginable.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01] You know, I'm going to say this and I think you're absolutely right. And I'm glad you called that out because I hate when I see that in true crime. It's like you're trying to apply like Columbo fictional satisfying conclusions to real life. And the reality of life is that a decent amount, a decent subset of the U.S. adult population, especially males, are emotionally unregulated children, you know, in adult bodies.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01] And they don't know how to handle anger or conflict. And they have access to weapons that then they can use. And that's it. And it's sad. I mean, you kind of think maybe if those people had gotten some support or maybe, maybe, maybe if like, like, I don't know, they'd gotten some something, some support earlier in life. Maybe they wouldn't have turned out so such a mess where they might like resolve their problems with violence. But that's not the world we live in.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01] That's not what happened. And they act upon it. And it's, it's sad. When I, when, you know, I just, I, it stinks. But I don't, I think that's kind of what we're seeing here. And it's like when you're trying to apply almost like intellectual, intellectualize it and like, well, I would never kill anyone over a car argument. It's like, yeah, but.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03] But I might kill somebody if they were going to expose my role in the Hendrickson affair.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01] I know who amongst us wouldn't kill to not be exposed in the Hendrickson affair. But, you know, you're applying like your own background and moral grounding and emotional regulation and intellectual ability that. And you're making a lot of assumptions that other people are exactly like you when they're probably not.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01] If they find themselves in this situation, they're probably struggling with at least some of what I just said. And, you know.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03] Anger or what have you. Anger or. For a lot of people.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01] You know, like low intelligence, frankly.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03] For a lot of people, the motive is just somehow sexual.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's the, that's what drives me crazy when people are like, well, why would he do this? It's like to, to achieve orgasm at the expense of another human being. You know, why would he do this sexual crime? That's why. It's very simple. Like it's not, you know, and there might be like a power and control thing going on too. It's not necessarily always just, just the sex. But it's, I think people overcomplicate this stuff in a big way.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01] And part of not overcomplicating it is just recognizing that you're not going to really fully understand some of this because you're just in a different position. And that's what I've had to do. Because I used to do this too. I'd be like, why would you do, there must be something more to it. And there just isn't.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_03] I think a lot of people unconsciously, without even realizing it, when you're, when you're trying to analyze a motive for why someone did something. I think there's a part of you saying, what would make me do this? And you need to remember, you wouldn't do this.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01] No, you wouldn't do it. You're not going to do this.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03] There's nothing good enough. And the sort of people who would do this, they don't need as much of a compelling reason as you might need.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And that's absolutely right. And, you know, I just think you have to, you know, and this is where I think like there is something to be said, though, for trying to raise children, especially boys. Because, I mean, like, let's be honest, men are doing the crimes, folks. I mean, there's no, I'm not, before anyone comes at me and calls me a feminazi, like murder, rape, robbery, vast majority of perpetrators are male.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01] That doesn't mean there aren't awful women who do awful things who should also be, you know, condemned. I agree with that. But like, but, but raising boys in a way that kind of, you know, takes care of them and takes care of their emotional well-being, especially, and helps them deal with those, those feelings of anger or sadness or rejection in a way that's healthy and doesn't lead them into a life of crime and evil.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01] And that's what I think is, I think, a really important and worthwhile task because, you know, it's just, I just think a lot of it's just not being able to like process some of that stuff, you know, that everyone has to face and a fully formed adult. And most men, I would say, could probably deal with it. But you have this subset where they're just not able to.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01] And it's just sad, you know, I mean, like with this thing, it's like, I don't know if, if the men involved, if the, if the perpetrator wasn't like a repeat offender, if this was the first time, I, I, I think it's horrible what he did. But I also, I feel bad for anybody who's like living their life where they're like reacting to just an argument this way.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03] It's like, what, what could like, because it's literally okay if someone has a different opinion about cars than you do.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01] It makes me feel like, okay, this person was not for whatever reason, whatever they had going on. And I don't know the specifics. They were not given the tools to deal with reality. And, and that's, there's something sad. What a wasted life that you're, you're rightfully going to prison now and you should be, and you shouldn't be allowed out in my view, because this is so stupid. At the same time, it's like, it's just sad. It's just sad all around. It's a tragedy, you know? And I just feel like, I don't know, a lot of, a lot of people are in that boat.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01] And that's why it's like, you know, sometimes I feel like the United States in particular, especially since we're like a wash in guns and we're a wash in like emotionally unregulated males. It's just like, we kind of still have that wild, wild west vibe. Because wasn't that what that was all about? Everyone's just shooting each other, you know, because they're mad at a saloon or whatever. I feel like we never, we, we still have that a little bit at the core of our society of like, you know, oh, this card game didn't go for me.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01] You know, and it's just like, that's, I don't, I don't love that.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_03] Well, Anya, on another matter entirely, I wanted to give you kudos. You've become quite a chef, quite a cook.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01] What? What is going on? This isn't an ad, folks. I don't know what's happening.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_03] No, just you've been cooking more lately. The other day, my parents came here and you treated them to your famous five alarm chicken, your six alarm bread, your seven alarm baked beans. Everybody loved it. You were the toast of the town.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01] That's very sweet of you. I just want to note none of these things were spicy, so there were no alarms involved. But Kevin likes to call everything I make five alarm.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03] You were the toast of the town.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's very sweet of you. I love your parents and I wanted to, you know, make them feel like they had a nice dinner here.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_03] Should people like send in recipes for you to try?

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01] Um, I don't, I'm not a very good chef. I don't hold a chef. You're a great chef. No, I'm learning. I'm trying to make more bread. Honestly, I'm just trying to have us eat healthier. So just trying to, and save some money, folks. So I think just, uh, you know, trying to cook at home more and, and, and make it good food. So we don't feel like we're being punished.

[00:43:13] Okay.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_03] Do you think there might be like good recipes you could try with like Mr. Pibb? Like putting Mr. Pibb as a seasoning or perhaps as a glaze on something?

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01] Oh my God. Like.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_03] See that, that would be a memorable dinner. You wouldn't even need any alarms.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01] No alarms.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_03] You just call it bottles. This is a five bottle. Five bottle. Mr. Pibb chicken or whatever.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01] Five Pibbs.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01] I, I, well, I mean, if anyone has any suggestions, I mean, you're very particular in what you like. So a lot of things will get just shot out of the sky immediately based on your specifications. Your dad, this is, this is his dad. He's like, wow, Kevin's eating chicken. And I was just like, wow. Okay. Apparently there's been some massive character development.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_03] There have been some incidents in the past we don't need to go into. But all I say is if you have a recipe where like one of the key ingredients is Mr. Pibb, how can I not love that?

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01] So I guess murder sheet chefs get on it. Let's, I don't even, I, I, you know, I mean, I'm, I don't know.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_03] Because I've gone to great effort and personal expense to ensure that we have a steady supply of Pibb. We've got a lot of Mr. Pibb, even though it's not the easiest thing to find around here.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_03] So I can sacrifice some of that for you to make your five bottle Pibb chicken or what have you.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Well, I, challenge accepted. I can, you know, I can try to do that. Hopefully it wouldn't turn out totally disgusting. Sounds kind of awful to me, but also I have not, I'm willing to try it. I'm scared though.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_03] Speaking of challenges accepted. Now that crime con is in the rear view mirror. Now that we're back from Nevada. Are you ready to strap on your pouches and either head to baggerstown or head to the private home of a listener and settle this once and for all?

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. We're actually just choosing a listener at random. You're not going to invite us. We're just going to show up. No. Can you imagine if we did that? That would be so terrifying. Oh my gosh. That's like literally like, why are they at my door? Why are they holding a big cornhole thing? I'm sorry. We wouldn't do that to you guys, but we, yeah, I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm, I worry that I've overstated my prowess and that I'm going to like humiliate myself because that's usually what happens.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think we all assume that's what's going to happen. And so I'm giving you another chance to back out.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01] No, I'm not going to back out.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_03] Because if you look at me, you say to yourself, there is a guy that knows how to cornhole.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01] That knows how to cornhole.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_03] Exactly.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01] That sounds weird. I don't know. Well, I mean, people have literally complained because now they're getting a bunch of weird ads for cornhole stuff. So I apologize to all the listeners. We really owe everybody like a huge apology for that.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03] So yeah, the things we say, if you like playing it in front of your Alexa or whatever, it triggers ads. So should we like, what kind of things would people like to hear ads for? We can talk about that. I don't know.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01] We're really trying to optimize for the audience.

[00:46:21] I don't know.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_01] I hate when my phone does that. Because I've had that happen to me. Like, I'll be talking about something really specific. And then suddenly it's like ads. It's like, oh, like, what? Creepy. I don't like that. I don't know how to stop it, though. So I apologize to all the people. I apologize so sincerely.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Why didn't one of your fancy future Anyas come back and warn us not to talk about cornhole?

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. I don't. Well, why are they fancy? Also, aren't you with me?

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_03] I think these future Anyas have let us all down. I am furious with future Anya.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01] Well, maybe you shouldn't be criticizing her too much because she's going to be making you your pib glazed chicken monstrosity that's going to go horribly wrong.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_03] That's a promise. Everybody has heard Anya committing to making a five bottle pib chicken.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01] I think you're making everyone sick listening to this. People are probably already gone. But, you know, I just, I don't know. We'll see. And I don't want it to, like, you make dinner too. It's not all me. You know? I don't want it to sound.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_03] Well, you know, Anya, I can praise you without diminishing myself. I know.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_01] But I'm just saying you do a lot of hard work in the kitchen too. And I appreciate that. I don't want it to sound like I'm the only one doing it. I've been a little more experimental with what I'm doing. But you've been making some nice food.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_03] Because I'm not as experimental. I would never do anything as crazy as use Mr. Pim to make chicken. That just seems to me to be kind of disgusting. But you've heard Anya. She's enthusiastic about it. So that's the difference between us. I'll only make things that I know are going to be really good.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_01] You're the worst. You're the absolute worst. Oh, my gosh. I'm going to make you. For the record, I'm going to make him eat this freaking Pib chicken. I don't know what's wrong with you. You're just an insane person. And that's all. But I made that choice. And I own it.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_03] We're beefing up our premium content. We offer premium content on Patreon and Apple. It's ad-free. It's early episodes. We're also starting to do extra episodes. If by the time this episode is released, we've done at least one bonus episode from CrimeCon.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_01] We better have unless something went really wrong.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_03] And so depending on how that episode turned out, either you're welcome or we're sorry.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01] Or both. Yeah, I never know. I never know. I always worry like someone's coming. The number of times that someone's been talking to us and, oh, yeah, like I checked you guys out. We're like, cool. What episode did you listen to? Oh, the last cheat sheet. And I'm like, oh.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I listened to the one where Adi was insisting that she was going to put Mr. Pib in a chicken.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01] It's like it's always inevitably somebody that, you know, it's like we really want to take us seriously. Hi, I'm a journalist. I'm an attorney. We wrote this really good book about Delphi. We did all this. We've appeared on this TV show. And then it's like it's like it's never.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, I listened to your thoughtful, detailed analysis.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01] I listened to this really impressive interview you got or the Temujin Kenzu or the Delphi coverage.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_03] It's always like I heard Anya talk about Mr. Pib chicken.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_01] Because we're talking a lot about time traveling and cornhole. And it's like, no. But, you know, hopefully. So if you're a first time listener, we're sorry. Not all the episodes are like this. All right. Are we done?

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_03] We're done.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01] On that note. I can't believe you committed me to this disgusting Pib situation.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_03] And I see the eerie hand of future Anya reaching towards the button.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, well, I wish she'd hit it sooner.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_03] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.