The Delphi Murders: Analyzing the Claims About Social Media in the Franks Memorandum

[00:00:00] Content Warning This episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls. The Franks Memorandum was, in many ways, a milestone document in the case against Richard Allen, who of course is accused of murdering teenagers Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

[00:00:16] The Franks Memo seemed to seek to fulfill a few goals for Allen's original defense team. Fundamentally, it sought to discredit law enforcement and explain the need for a Frank's hearing in the case. But it went into a lot more than just that.

[00:00:31] The memo explained in detail how the girls were murdered. It also strived to establish an entire theory of the crime involving a brand new cast of suspects, even going so far as to name names. In fact, it accused Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Elvis Fields, and others

[00:00:49] of belonging to a statewide gang of odynists who murdered the victims as part of a ritual. If you're active in Delphi case spaces online, you might get the sense that the reception of this document has been mixed or controversial to say the least.

[00:01:03] A few people accepted the memo's conclusions eagerly and have wholeheartedly adopted the theory that a sprawling cult of odynists sacrificed Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Others are quite skeptical of not only this theory but many of the other claims of the memo.

[00:01:20] They take the tack the whole thing was a last ditch desperate effort to influence the court of public opinion with what amounts to a conspiracy theory. Still others tell us they're undecided. Maybe they're not sold on much of what the memo has to offer,

[00:01:35] but they do find some aspects pertinent and well worth consideration. Because the memo is so sprawling in scope and length, we want to drill down on one aspect of it in this episode. Social media comes up again and again in the document.

[00:01:51] Specifically citations involving social media posts from holder and fields. We recently connected with a researcher named Thomas. He's great. He did an excellent job compiling a memorandum of all the social media references in the document

[00:02:07] along with screenshots and his own analysis contextualizing each image or post that's referenced. He was kind enough to share that with us. If you'd like to follow along with his work in this episode, please join our Facebook group. We'll include a link in our show notes.

[00:02:23] There we'll be posting Thomas' memo about the Frank's memo. Keep in mind that when we refer to the defense team in this episode, we're talking about Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie. It is unclear what their future in the case is. They may come back. They may not.

[00:02:40] We'll have to wait for the Indiana Supreme Court to make a ruling on that matter. But for the time being, let's hear what Thomas found out about the social media related claims

[00:02:49] in the Frank's memo and what they say about the strength of the case against the alleged odonist cult. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:02] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reported interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders, analyzing the claims about social media in the Frank's memorandum.

[00:04:02] To start off, Thomas, can you just tell us a bit, you know, how you sort of got into researching this social media aspect of the memo and actually maybe even just how you got interested in the Delphi case? Yeah, for sure.

[00:04:16] So back when the crime first happened, I don't live in Indiana. It was something that I heard about. I remember seeing actually billboards, you know, on the interstate with the bridge guy sketch, the original sketch asking for information.

[00:04:30] So I was kind of aware of it, but not, you know, following it super closely or anything. Then a couple years ago, I listened to the Down the Hill podcast that those folks

[00:04:38] put out and it was just kind of, you know, grabbed by it really through that podcast. I think, you know, Delphi is a town that really mirrors kind of the small town that I live in.

[00:04:46] There's a lot of outdoor community, a trail with a big bridge onto this something and it just kind of hits home, just kind of the circumstances of the case. And then it's just so tragic, obviously, with what happened to those girls

[00:04:58] and the mystery around it, obviously is really intriguing kind of to wrap it all up. But yeah, when the memo came out, you know, I like everybody was reading through it. It's just really inflammatory stuff, just really interesting, just kind of that crazy,

[00:05:14] almost conspiracy angle to a case that's already so wild and came across social media stuff as, you know, was kind of surprised to find that Brad Holder's Facebook page was still active and viewable and kind of the same thing with Elvis Fields

[00:05:27] were the two people that I really was able to look through and kind of, you know, make my own interpretations, draw some of my own conclusions based on the claims that were made in the memo. So really the reason I started diving into that was

[00:05:39] I mean, I don't interest obviously, but you know, also just out of access, you know, I don't have access to the police reports or the cry or anything really official with the crime scene or the crime other than,

[00:05:48] you know, what you guys have reported and other folks have have reported and that's been kind of confirmed out there. And also the other court filing. So it was really interesting in that way, just as some you could actually

[00:05:58] get your hands on and kind of draw your own conclusions about. Yeah. And you did a really wonderful job making your own memo of the social media angle of the memo. And before we get started, I do want to know one thing

[00:06:10] and correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing that's so important about especially the holder fields connection online is that that is used as a bit of a link between the two men and between almost the Delphi group or, you know,

[00:06:27] the Northern Indiana group and the Rushville group, which of course is to the south of Indianapolis. So these are two different locations, but holder in fields. Can you speak more about that, about how those are those two men are kind of connected via social media within this document?

[00:06:42] Yeah. So I mean, the connection they try to draw and, you know, I think it's worth mentioning that according to the to the to the Frank's memo, most of the information they're presenting is stuff that law enforcement originally developed.

[00:06:54] You know, that kind of separate group outside of the the unified command that kind of put the report together. A lot of this information comes from that. So I think it's important to remember that, you know, it's coming from a law enforcement source.

[00:07:05] So it definitely has some, you know, some level of credibility. But the link they draw is really and we're sure we'll get more into it. But you kind of have Elvis Fields or who, you know, has allegedly admitted to being involved, you know,

[00:07:18] potentially knows some some details of the crime scene that are really interesting, but really has no connection to the area or the girls that's discernible in any way. And then you have Brad Holder, who, you know, has the connection to the girls lives in Delphi, his son

[00:07:33] and Abby were potentially involved with one other on some level. And so but then has no maybe has an alibi for the time of actual murders, has no real connection to the crime scene that you can, you know, that's super discernible.

[00:07:46] So it's a way to sort of bridge that gap almost and bring the two the two groups together like you're saying. And they try to do with the social media connection. But as we'll get into, I think it I don't know that it's the strongest connection

[00:07:58] or nearly as strong as they purported to be. Yeah, it's interesting because it really is it's not a it's not a side issue. It's a bit of a load bearing wall in this in this construction that they've made.

[00:08:10] And I think some of what you found kind of speaks to how solid and stable that wall is and let's get into it. So I'm going through the memo that you sent us. And again, just wanted to say amazing research.

[00:08:25] I'm super happy that you guys found it helpful and hopefully other people will too. Yeah, we thought we thought you did a great job and we were just like really excited to chat with you because we're just like, you know, internet research and internet sleuths in cases

[00:08:37] get a bad rep rightfully so in my opinion. Because there's a lot of insanity out there. But actually what you talked about the stuff that you do have access to and being able to look for yourself, I think it's really important

[00:08:47] and is actually a very helpful thing that folks like yourself were good at research and can do this can kind of help other people understand aspects of a popular case that maybe you wouldn't really think about or maybe you would just take one side of the story

[00:09:01] or discount it maybe unfairly. I think being able to go through and actually look for yourself is so great. All right, let's jump to you mentioned in this. I'm looking at a photo of a man's hand with an asterisk drawn on it.

[00:09:18] Or it looks like an asterisk to me as a non-heathen. But this is referring to what happened on the 59th page of the memo. Can you speak to what you found on social media about this element of it? Yeah, for sure.

[00:09:33] So this is one of the pictures I was able to pretty conclusively identify in the memo. They refer to it as a post in April 7th, 2017, which is when this picture was posted. It shows a hand like you're saying with that asterisk kind of drawn on it,

[00:09:47] which is what they describe and they compare it in the memo as a very close match to the room, the sticks that are found on Abby's body at the crime scene. And so they're attaching that significance to it.

[00:09:58] That this is, I think it was posted in April, so a couple of months after the crime occurred as maybe some guilty knowledge on part of Brad Holder. It's on Brad Holder's Facebook page that he's displaying this room that was also recreated at the crime scene.

[00:10:14] Some interesting stuff that I found really interesting about it. So the defense team and just for reference, I know there's a lot of stuff up in the air about Baldwin and Rosie right now, what their future on the case holds.

[00:10:23] But when I say the defense team, obviously, I'm referring to Baldwin and Rosie, they describe it as the Hugal Rune, which is H-A-G-A-L. They describe the meaning of hail to that in footnote 17 on the memo, which I think is on page 30, is where that footnote makes an appearance.

[00:10:39] They're tying it to some other stuff at the crime scene, maybe saying that hail odin is the message that's being created. But when you look at the picture and the caption that Brad posted with it, he's got a different interpretation of what this drawing means.

[00:10:52] It definitely is runic in nature. So I think it's important to highlight that there is a lot of taking symbolism, a lot of runes, that sort of thing on Holder's Facebook. There's no doubt about that. But so he identifies this rune as two separate runes, one being

[00:11:07] Gabo, Gibo, G-E-B-O and the other being ESA, I-S-A. Gibo normally taken the form of an X, which is kind of the base of that. And he says in the post that he's been drawing that for a couple days

[00:11:20] and it's supposed to symbolize gifts receiving either positive or negative. And he's been getting a lot of those apparently recently according to his Facebook post. And so he says he's going to try to slow it down with an ESA rune,

[00:11:32] which takes the form of a straight line kind of drawn right through the center of the X. So it's really interesting that the meaning being described in the memo by the defense team is obviously very different than the meaning easily is publicly describing to it.

[00:11:50] Also related to that, so the defense team identifies it as Hago meaning Hale on another post on Brad's Facebook page, which was posted actually just the next day. Also in April of 2017, it's sort of a notebook.

[00:12:05] Looks to be some kind of runic notebook where he's making handwritten notes. And he has another formation, which looks like a kind of a standard H with the center bar at sort of an angle. And he's marked that room as meaning Hale.

[00:12:19] So a different formation, a different rune in his understanding, having the meaning to the defense is describing to this photograph of, I assume it's his hand with that asterisk drawn on it. So unclear, you know, it's interesting anyway that the meaning they're giving to it in the memo

[00:12:36] is not the same as what he's reporting in the photo that they reference. You know, not sure one way or another what that really means, but it is like it's interesting that it's different than what they're saying. It really is because you would think that if he's saying,

[00:12:49] hey, here are these runes that I'm doing that they would just go with that rather than assigning or ascribing their own separate interpretation. But it's possible that there was some needle they were trying to thread there that we're just not thinking of. But it definitely is interesting.

[00:13:06] Because I know if I, you know, not being familiar with any of this, I think I would probably just go with, okay, this is what the guy is saying. This is what it means. And I, you know, kind of playing devil's advocate,

[00:13:16] I don't know that a separate meaning really means it's any less significant. You know, if you're going to, if you want to see meaning, if it does match, you know, the formations of the crime scene, then that could still have meaning to it.

[00:13:27] It's just, I don't know, not to pass judgment, but it is kind of sloppy as putting the memo together is like, here's this explanation for what this formation means. It could be very specific to him. You know, that could also be a way of reading it

[00:13:40] that maybe this formation is not a room that everyone would use, but it's a very specific meaning to him. But they don't approach it that way. They just describe it, you know, we did a quick googling of

[00:13:50] asterisk room would give you that information they put in the memo. So it's just interesting. Yeah. And I think what you said is also very important to be devil's advocate and to, and to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[00:14:01] We can always make an argument that just because they're, you know, the alleged murderers are not doing things in a very sensible way from a, from a runic perspective, perhaps, perhaps they're more self-taught or getting things wrong. And it, you know, like there's that element, although frankly,

[00:14:18] in my opinion, I think the memo tries to have it both ways, you know, the runic experts, but also maybe they messed up up. So I, but it's, but I think it is fair to keep that in mind as kind of in the back of our heads.

[00:14:31] Let's talk about this painting. This painting. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting painting. And I, this reminds me of the conversation we had with the, the experts from the troath, which of course is the Heaton group that is a inclusive anti-racist. They're great.

[00:14:46] You know, we talked a little bit about I'm Catholic, right? So, you know, lots of crucifixions and, you know, I think if you kind of were coming into that totally not, not knowing anything, you might be a little freaked out

[00:14:57] about that understandably because it's a horrible way to die. Yeah. I guess that's my setup for this. What exactly are we looking at with this painting? If you could paint a word picture for the listeners. I mean, you know, it's not,

[00:15:08] I wouldn't call it a very professionally done painting, but it basically depicts with no, you know, if you're coming at it with absolutely no background, it's, it depicts a tree in some kind of field, some kind of grass landscape.

[00:15:19] There is a naked man hanging from the tree by the ankles. He appears to maybe be beaten, have some kind of injury around his face. One of his legs is straight. The other one is kind of cocked out at an angle, but they're joined at the ankle.

[00:15:31] And then on the ground around the roots of the tree, you see different discs, different circles with what appear to be maybe characters, runes, something like, you know, in the context of this discussion, something like that around the bottom.

[00:15:42] So like you're saying, coming at it with no information, no background knowledge, it definitely could be viewed as a disturbing image. I will say it's not over, it's not gory. I wouldn't describe it as no blood. There's no, you know, nothing really overtly violent

[00:15:56] about it other than, you know, obviously the inherent violence of a man hanging upside down. If you told me that this was the nude guy who was hungover wandering through the woods and he got caught in some trap, and then I would believe that

[00:16:09] because I wouldn't, as you said, there's no blood really doesn't look to be anything gory about it. No, I totally agree. And I think your point about, you know, any religions, you know, symbolism, if you're coming at it with no information, there's a lot of depictions

[00:16:24] of the crucifixion is a great example that are incredibly gory, incredibly violent, you know, that coming at it from with no background, which is kind of hard to imagine sometimes, it could be, you know, viewed as something horrible, you know, something totally horrible.

[00:16:37] And I'm telling you, I'm proud of this. Yeah, absolutely. So I don't have a lot to say about this picture other than that the defense team clearly tried to paint it as a creepy, violent image, you know, some kind of image with a negative connotation.

[00:16:49] And I think you guys did a great job in your episode with the folks from The Trove about really dispelling that that this is a very common symbol, you know, of Odin hanging from the tree. It depicts his sacrifice to gain the knowledge of language,

[00:17:04] if I remember in that episode and the information correctly. So taking it with that context, there may not be anything creepy about it. The defense team tries to draw some parallels between I think the way that Libby is posed and her with her legs to this image

[00:17:20] that that may have some symbolism. Also the kind of the room that's at the center of the base of the tree, it's on the ground, it's not on the tree itself, but it resembles the F. You know, I think that picture is one that's been widely circulated.

[00:17:34] Everyone saw it was on the news, everyone's seen that, you know, it was painted on the tree. So take from that what you will. But I think in the episode with those folks from The Trove, you know, they said that that letter would appear

[00:17:45] in every depiction of this scene. It's, you know, it's the first letter of the alphabet. It's a very common symbol. So I think it's very easy to look at this and draw no connection to it from it to the crime scene,

[00:17:57] other than it is, you know, pagan in nature, odynistic in nature. And so if you're going to ascribe that meaning to the crime scene, then obviously there is that that loose connection. Yeah, no, that's really well said. And I think it is important to remember,

[00:18:13] because, you know, we are talking about people's religion. And I think just kind of being like, oh, this is so freaky, what are they doing? You know, that doesn't feel great. And I think it's absolutely fine to, you know, look into possible religious significance at a crime scene.

[00:18:28] So I'm certainly not saying that there's anything wrong with saying, hey, maybe Odynists did this or maybe humans did this. It's more of like just reading. There seems to be a little bit of a tone in this document that's very much like, what are like,

[00:18:42] these guys are capable of anything because they're pagan and. Right. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, when you have an image, like exactly like you're saying, you have an image like this that is obviously just a part of a very well known scene in, you know,

[00:18:56] depicting an aspect of this religion. Ascribing a negative connotation to it is kind of out of bounds. It may have some connection. It's possible, I guess, but to just take this and say, well, he painted this, obviously he's a violent person

[00:19:10] or he's, you know, he's got some connection to the crime scene. When it depicts things that are apparently very common in the religion is kind of a tough step to take. I agree. And I kind of tend to think also it's,

[00:19:21] this is Odin choosing to do this to benefit people. Almost reminds me of the Prometheus myth, but less violent because he's the one making the sacrifice rather than, you know, the gods chaining him to a rock. So it's like, it just seems a little bit less violent

[00:19:40] or invasive for him, the central figure of the myth that we even think necessarily. For sure. I agree with that. One other thing I have to point out about this in the document that a fence makes some reference to the

[00:19:53] possibility that one of the girls was hung from a tree, I think is sort of a subtle callback to this image. Interesting to me that they don't point to any evidence of that happening other than, you know, a rope that was maybe found nearby.

[00:20:07] They mentioned that in the memo, but you would think if a person was, you know, hung by the ankle from a tree by with a rope for any period of time, it's going to be abrasions, marks, you know, a pretty obvious way to know that was happening.

[00:20:22] So if that was the case, if that did exist, that would obviously kind of, that would be something that may bolster their claims here and be something you would think they would include. So I think the fact that it's not included probably diminishes that,

[00:20:36] the chance of that actually having happened. Does that make sense? I completely agree. If there's a ligature mark on one of their ankles and that, I mean, that's something to mention because also that speaks to whatever happening to them

[00:20:51] taking a lot more time to tie and hang up or something like that. So it would bolster their argument in several different respects. Also that feels like it would be harder for one person to do. Yeah definitely. So I think that's a very important point to mention

[00:21:08] and it shows you like there is a willingness to speculate somewhat in instances like that. So let's go to page 67. You kind of dug into a video that Brad Holder supposedly posted about a pagan ritual.

[00:21:28] Yeah so this is one, Holder appears to be the videographer in this case but the defense describes it as video from his Facebook page that shows a pagan ritual with the most important part at the very end where a man that looks like Patrick Westfall

[00:21:42] appears to be using his fingers to quote unquote paint a tree. That's how the defense describes it in the memo on page 67. I watched the ritual still available on Holder's Facebook page. It appeared to be from whether the message there

[00:21:58] presenting kind of an introductory ritual to people that may not be aware of what their religion is. It was very, very positive from what I could gather from it. There was no talk of any kind of violence or any kind of discriminatory behavior.

[00:22:12] There was actually a part section during the ritual where they asked for any, almost prayers of any groups or people that needed remembrance or strength to be called out by the group. And one man who was in the circle indicated the support for a Native American group

[00:22:28] that was I think going through a water issue and Hold Brad who was filming the ritual as well as everyone else in the circle gave a positive response to that. So nothing that appeared to be there's a lot of white supremacy

[00:22:41] running through this whole memo, a lot of that kind of behavior. None of that was evident in this ritual. So I mean it certainly is further confirmation that Brad Holder is someone who participates in paganism and some type but there's nothing, no evil connotation.

[00:22:57] There's no nothing violent or weird really about it other than that's just a slightly fringe religion. The part of the end there, it does appear that Patrick Westfall was doing something to the tree to say that he's appearing to paint it. He only appears for like two seconds.

[00:23:14] I mean it may be less than that so it's really hard to tell what he's doing. Since the time I kind of finished looking into this I saw a video from Tom Webster who was kind of doing something similar going through some of this

[00:23:24] and I think he actually saw a video where Westfall's claim what he was doing was putting a coin in the tree which is a which is a really common pagan act. It's something that still happens in the UK today.

[00:23:36] I looked into it a little bit after seeing Tom's video, something called like a wishing tree that they call it nowadays but he puts like a coin or some piece of metal under the tree for you know some kind of blessing going forward.

[00:23:46] So another very plausible explanation, something that it's kind of again, it's a pretty big leap in my opinion to take that and then to take that action of doing something to a tree at the end of a 20 minute video and extrapolate that out to

[00:24:05] you know a potential ruin being painted on a tree at a crime scene. Right and especially since it's like again the man appearing for two seconds it's you know.

[00:24:14] Yeah I mean it's certainly not any kind of serious part of the ritual even if that is what he's doing. If he is painting it doesn't appear to have any kind of paint brush or anything like that.

[00:24:23] So you know I think it's I think the explanation he gave is pretty reasonable and whether it's whether it's factual or not who knows. Right and if he's using his fingers to paint it feels like that could also look similar to

[00:24:36] like someone putting a coin in so it's like. For sure. Let's get into these four next images in your memo which of course are the images of sticks taken from Holder's Facebook I believe.

[00:24:50] These are a variety so he would basically go into the wood seemingly take photos of stick formations that he found on the ground and seemingly correct me if you have a different interpretation but these are things that he's finding so he's saying oh wow looks like this

[00:25:08] ruin and taking a photo and posting it. Is that how sort of you're reading this series? Yeah I think I think so it's not 100% clear you know to be fair whether he's assembling these things or if he's just finding them like there's a stumbling upon him that

[00:25:24] appear to be potentially runic and then taking pictures of him. There's no real comments to go with these he just pictures he's posted on his on his Facebook. You know the one that I highlight in the memo is the efferun.

[00:25:36] I mean you know to be fair it is it's not dissimilar from from the photo of the tree at the crime scene that's been on the news and everywhere but it's also not dissimilar

[00:25:47] from you know it's a pretty common symbol it seems to be in his religion so it you know it also was posted almost a year before the murders took place so you know it's

[00:26:00] there's no real build there's not like maybe like a building up to that you might expect to see these you know the pictures don't become more common or happening more frequently leading up to the murders that you know they're they're sort of just isolated to this one these

[00:26:12] couple weekends when he's out walking in a park and taking some of these pictures and and posting them they there's a one grouping of them from February of 2016 and another grouping from May of that year and I didn't find any images you know similar to these

[00:26:28] they were posted after the after the crime was committed so what that means I'm not sure if it means anything but there's also a lot of you know they appear to be runes similar type pictures that

[00:26:37] don't match that are not the efferun they don't really appear to match anything that they reference in the memo from the crime scene so you know a reading of that might it's kind

[00:26:47] of a picking and choosing to you know it's not like he's obsessed with this f this f-ring specifically or the asterisk uh ring specifically there's all kinds of different rings different symbols that he's highlighting choosing to highlight on his facebook page

[00:27:02] yeah that's an excellent point because I think I think it may look different if he was uh constantly posting the f-shaped runes and yeah as you said I seem to be fixated but

[00:27:15] there are a number of different types of runes here and just photos of sticks in general that he seems to be interpreting as runic yeah I think one thing that lends to the fact to the idea that

[00:27:27] maybe he's just finding these is that they're not really placed on clear ground you know he's not like he's framed them very specifically they're amongst other leaf sticks that sort of thing on the ground so you know it's possible that he's arranged them deliberately but it's also

[00:27:43] very possible that he's just noticing them they remind him of something that he's familiar with and he's taking a picture of them so that also strikes me as it's it's you know when you're

[00:27:50] dealing with uh straight lines it's very easy to see runes you know for sure yeah for sure no I totally agree with that um now we're going from the ancient runes to the modern memes and and

[00:28:06] this is certainly an alarming part of the franc's memorandum where the defense mentioned a certain meme that frad holder posted around the time of the murders can you speak to that

[00:28:17] yeah so there were a couple photos this being one of them um and this is on page 69 of the memo this is a apparently the meme addressing how real friends will help you move a body and and keep

[00:28:28] their mouth shut so it was deleted at some point in time I wasn't able to actually find it I think we can all kind of imagine what it looks like we've probably all got an uncle or

[00:28:37] a cousin who posts stuff like this you know I know I certainly do just random borderline inappropriate things um the boomers love these kinds of memes I'm gonna say no if you're a

[00:28:48] boomer and you're listening to it I'm sure you don't post them maybe you do and if that's your thing good for you have fun go for it but they love these I've seen memes like this because

[00:28:59] we we've been friend a lot of older people um and like we know talked to people who were around in in Indianapolis in like the 70s and there's a there's a style like often bugs bunny or you have

[00:29:09] somebody Sam's on these things or like some clip from a movie and yeah reading it taking to their face value the way it's presented in the memo obviously it's not a great look even if

[00:29:20] you had even if you have nothing to do with the murder you know it's obviously very the very front page topic in your town probably pretty tone deaf to post something like that so you

[00:29:30] know not a great look but also I don't know that there's a lot of real strong evidence that the girls were moved maybe they were moved around the the area where the crime was committed you

[00:29:41] know but as far as taking to their location try to be disposed of in some way you know I don't know there's a lot of strong evidence for that so I don't know how strongly it really

[00:29:50] ties down and then similarly another post that I wasn't really able to find that was also deleted was a 2am facebook post 12 hours or so after the girls go missing that says the

[00:30:01] testosterone was through the roof appeared to be a picture of him in the gym from what the defense describes it as you know that's when you can read two ways if he's involved if you

[00:30:11] believe he's involved in the murders then you know it maybe that's it's a you know secretive way of bragging about it if you think he has nothing to do with it at all he may not even

[00:30:20] have been aware of what happened at that time you know from look at there is facebook it he does post a lot of pictures of him at the gym you know with with caption similar to that

[00:30:30] so it's not something that is abnormal behavior for him it's possible that he realized it was sort of a bad look and that's why he deleted it later not in any way there could be a totally innocent

[00:30:45] you know reasoning behind that so I understand why they include it it's not a great look if you if you if you believe that he had something to do with it you could certainly

[00:30:53] read it that way but I don't think it my my opinion it's it's not a really strong connection yeah and especially as you said that there's a history of that I think that came out at

[00:31:04] nowhere and his posting history can support anything like that that would be a bit more of a red flag but some guys just like to post a gym update some gals like to post a gym updates

[00:31:15] I mean for sure yeah and I mean you know the testosterone thing I think they kind of try to try to tie that like his adrenaline was pumping he's feeling really you know

[00:31:22] he's just done this horrible thing or knows that this horrible thing has happened that he was somehow involved in but you know a lot of guys that are really big into the gym you know that's that sounds

[00:31:32] like a caption I you know I could see a friend of mine who's a big and like powerlifting posting if he's just hit like a you know personal record or something like that so you know that

[00:31:42] could it be my own bias topics you know showing through that I don't find it that compelling but you know I mean we have our bias on our show for the boring answer and a lot of these things

[00:31:55] have a pretty strong boring answer um and that I think that is compelling to us although we do want to give the defense team that you know the benefit of that at least consider them and

[00:32:06] take it seriously uh I think it's important to take it seriously but to examine what are the other explanations is this is this uh described in a way that is fair yeah for sure um let's jump to

[00:32:22] page 100 so this is actually about Patrick Westfall rather than Brad Holder he's one of the other alleged uh murderers who um is involved in in Heathenry and this gets into the activity of

[00:32:37] actually cutting runes and so can you talk about what exactly does that mean and what exactly is going on here yeah for sure um so like I said on page 100 so the image I found that they

[00:32:51] actually say it's from Patrick Westfall's Facebook in the in the memo the image I found was was from Brad Holder's Facebook but it depicts the exact same thing it's a image of

[00:33:00] I mean it appears to be Westfall cutting the end of a tree branch with and it's got the same quote unquote cutting runes comment underneath it so I'm pretty confident the same image that they're talking about but so they you know in the defense team in the memo

[00:33:15] I think tries to draw a connection between this image and the idea of cutting runes and the stick that was maybe cut with an electric saw um it at the crime scene that

[00:33:28] they claim was possibly cut by an electric saw at the crime scene um I think you can kind of find confirmation of that in footnote 30 um where they mention it's when they're laying out the the

[00:33:39] one man could could not have done all of this they say one man acting alone just so happened to have found a branch with a clean cut end on the ground in the woods and then tie that to footnote 30

[00:33:51] saying later in this brief you will see a Facebook post in which a few weeks before the murders a man that looks like Patrick Westfall is using an electric saw to cut a tree branch

[00:34:00] Brad Holder then leaves a comment that says quote cutting runes so I you know they're obviously trying to tie that hey maybe this is the branch that was found at the crime scene that here is a possible

[00:34:10] explanation for how they got there but when you look through the rest of Brad's Facebook there are a lot of there are several depictions of runes that are made by cutting discs off of the end

[00:34:22] of tree branches deer antlers that sort of thing um and so I think there's a much less grabby explanation for this photo where they found what they deemed to be a suitable stick for cutting those discs out of they then take those and write different reinformations on them

[00:34:41] and in a couple of photos the on Brad's Facebook seems to be carrying them around in the bags we can is able to have them with him you know they stored nicely he sets them out on I mean for

[00:34:53] lack of a better term and then alter to take different pictures of you know numerous times on his Facebook page so that appears to me to be what is happening in this image it's just

[00:35:06] another one of those again if you want to take a super aggressive look at this you could say that hey this is the image that was or this is the stick that was found at the crime scene here he is

[00:35:17] making it you know boom this is quote unquote proof but to me it's it seems a lot more likely that what he's doing is cutting that in several times to make a number of discs that they're

[00:35:31] then going to write runes on um and there like I said a couple of other instances where Brad displays a whole set of these he shows two or three of them at different times with different

[00:35:43] messages you know numerous times over several years on his Facebook page so yeah that's that's really well said and yeah I think even if you're sitting even if it's not the stick

[00:35:55] or you know you could say well maybe this is what they do they go and they cut these sticks and then lay them out like ruins but yeah that's not the mechanism that appears to be happening

[00:36:06] no and and you know kind of like we talked about before there's not a lot of images of obviously of large constructed rooms on the ground um you know on Brad's Facebook page there

[00:36:17] the ones that he does post they're they're pretty small scale you can tell by you know leaves and the other scale you know items around them they're not these big um big constructions and what's much more prevalent is are these small discs that you would make by cutting

[00:36:33] the end of a stick which appears to be what's what's happening here so and I was I was being devil's advocate I was thinking well maybe they cut the branch at the scene to take it home to make

[00:36:45] discs but uh then we're getting into the realm of like anything could happen right for sure yeah I mean right so again maybe and there are certainly ways to look at this picture and draw some some really negative conclusions about um these people's connection to the crime scene

[00:37:01] but I think you're stretching pretty far to take a lot put a lot of stock in this but when you you know that's why I was so interested to look into this because when you read it in black and white

[00:37:10] on a page without any context it sounds really really interesting but then once you actually see the image and some of the other images that are context around it it really loses a lot

[00:37:19] of that grab you know it's like it's basically which becomes irrelevant to me as as anything that would tie holder or Westfall to the crime scene other than just the general connection of odinism

[00:37:32] you know like there's no denying that on at least brand and look at Patrick I couldn't find Patrick Westfall's Facebook page but on at least brand holders Facebook there's a lot of paying odinist Rinnick stuff um so there's no denying that obviously but these specific examples

[00:37:51] a lot of them in my opinion don't really tie very strongly back to the you present this guilty knowledge that they try to the defense team is trying to portray that's so often the case in

[00:37:59] journalism where you're like oh this sounds really interesting and then you scratch the surface look into it and it's like okay like I see what they're doing there yeah and I mean if you

[00:38:10] wanted to you know tie it to something coming from the prosecution side of things just you know to keep that balance the the confessions that Rick Allen has purported to have given

[00:38:18] you know we are I mean I certainly haven't heard them I don't think anyone has heard them outside of you know the defense team the prosecution they could be incredibly damning or they could be

[00:38:28] ramblings that really you know don't speak to any guilty knowledge that are just you know that may not provide very much you know evidence of guilt at all so if you're saying like I'm losing my mind in here maybe I did do it then I don't think that

[00:38:44] like terribly compelling compared to like here's what I did it really so much depends on the context it does and and like you were just saying on any information he might have revealed that would be

[00:38:56] that he may not have you know had a reason to not you know so yeah I think context details is is it a conversation that's coercive and obviously I don't really think that can be said

[00:39:09] because he's talking to his mom wife but if it's a situation where he's coming in and saying if someone's interrogating him then to me that's different um that's a different situation than

[00:39:21] you know so there's so many things and it feels important to to mention them but it also seems very important not to put too much weight on them until we know yeah until you know exactly

[00:39:31] because you know reading anything from one side of the other that they're presenting is going to be presented in the best light they can possibly find you know without going to hopefully without

[00:39:40] going over that you know lying line um that's going to present it in their favor so when you can get context when you can kind of look at the circumstances surrounding it and form your own

[00:39:51] opinions I think that's really important to do absolutely let's go into we mentioned this a little bit earlier but the holder fields connection here's where we're getting really I don't want to say trippy but like we're getting um we're getting deep into this Facebook

[00:40:08] rabbit hole because I think one thing that was a common theme of everything we've talked about so far but like it made sense and that like oh they're referencing this image we can track that down

[00:40:17] look at in its context maybe we see some different things but here's where we're getting into the realm of I think what I would characterize is very speculative um because you're having now correct me if I'm wrong but it's essentially fields is allegedly copying holders Facebook

[00:40:33] that's how they lay it out you're exactly right and I totally agree with you that if you're going to look for a part a place in the memo dealing with social media that is

[00:40:43] the weakest and the closest to that like just total speculation it's this fields holder connection because unless I missed it they don't point to any evidence that the two were friends on Facebook they don't point to any evidence that they were interacting with each other's photos directly

[00:41:00] you know liking liking commenting that sort of thing there is a possible connection where they know some of the same people um one thing that we've mentioned a lot from brand holders Facebook that is totally absent from Elvis Fields' Facebook is any odynistic pagan runic imagery

[00:41:20] there's not any of that on there so if it wasn't an important part of his life or it was becoming an important part of his life he's not posting anything publicly about it

[00:41:28] before or as far as I can find sense you know in the past five to six years you know it's not been something he has been public about if it is something that he's involved in so

[00:41:39] yeah if we want to walk through the the kind of connections that they're making there's they highlight four in the memo one is an image of brass knuckles surrounded by other weapons in the Fields post it's knives and the the holder post that they're referring to is

[00:41:53] it's apparently guns the next two are some arrowheads that they're claiming are mimicked images and then the final one is a single clear mason jar and right off the bat reading through that

[00:42:06] list you may be thinking like I was thinking that at least three of those four the arrowheads and the mason jar are not maybe that specific of images you know there's not a lot of people

[00:42:20] might have posted a picture of arrowheads on their facebook I'm gonna save this Thomas I've posted that same exact picture on my facebook and I swear I'm not a notanist but I've literally posted

[00:42:30] I did an archaeological dig once and I have several photos of my hand holding an arrowhead that I found in the ground mean like cool since since we're talking let's just jump to those two because

[00:42:40] I think the brass knuckles one is the one that has the most potential to be interesting so let's let's just the the arrowheads one so they highlight one where it's a

[00:42:51] a man's hand a man a hand holding an arrowhead is all that's in frame and those two images definitely do exist on both Brad Holder's facebook and Elvis Fields' facebook they're different obviously they're not a cut they're not a true recreation of a copy of the same image

[00:43:07] some interesting things to note about them like you're saying anyone who's ever found an arrowhead and posted on facebook is probably posted this image it's literally just an arrowhead lying in the palm of someone's hand they are posted almost two years apart from each other

[00:43:22] Holder posted his in August of 2015 Fields posted his in April of 2017 there's no comment under Fields' Brad just says he's trying his hand at napping which I assume is the is the art of finding arrowheads I'm not familiar with what that means but

[00:43:40] they're really generic the next arrowhead photo is just a picture of two arrowheads the one I found on Brad Holder's facebook is again his I assume it's his hand holding two arrowheads another thing that's interesting there's several photos on Elvis's Elvis Fields' facebook

[00:43:56] of arrowheads in different formations and different you know there's one that has three arrowheads there's a couple of different ones of him holding a single arrowhead the one that I could find that was most similar to Holder's photo he's not holding them they're

[00:44:07] just lying on it looks like he's got a green carpet and then compare it and again these are posted actually over two years apart Holder's photo was posted the same day as his other one August 23rd 2015 and Elvis's Fields photo was posted in September of 2017 so after the

[00:44:23] murders had taken place and over two years after Holder posted his another thing I found interesting is these appear to be the only two photos of arrowheads Brad Holder has ever posted

[00:44:34] so if you're going to take the defense's point of view that and that Fields is trying to show some sort of admiration of or loyalty to Holder through these photos you might think

[00:44:51] he would pick something a little more meaningful to him or something that was closer in time to the photos that he is posting that's obviously just my opinion but I think it I think it is

[00:45:01] sort of common sense you have to dig pretty far back in in Brad Holder's facebook even in 2017 you would have had to go back pretty far to find these two images and they would be

[00:45:12] pretty random to ascribe some sort of meaning to or think that he would notice them on your facebook in any meaningful way because it's not something that seems to be very important

[00:45:20] to him and here's a question because I think when people say well they knew the same people and that seems to be confirmed that's something I mean that's like a similar social group so I

[00:45:31] think that I think you can have an easier time convincing people about why use this arrowhead thing I think it's a great a great question because I totally agree with you like if you have if they know some of the same people you know

[00:45:47] you would have you would think that the police group that was working on this angle would have tried to run that connection down and if they weren't really able to develop anything concrete this seems like a fallback like well we couldn't really find any meaningful connection

[00:46:01] through talking to these folks but here's something that could be a connection and it's just really to me it's just really really strained and again like we mentioned kind of at the top the information that field which is allegedly given what he said to his sisters

[00:46:18] that's such a really really interesting and it could be really really compelling and it definitely deserves to be looked into but I think the maybe where that fell apart assuming

[00:46:27] that law enforcement did look into it in some way is any way to tie him to the area on that day any way to you know any evidence show he was there it's also worth saying and I you know I don't

[00:46:37] mean any offense by this at all that the idea that fields might have been bridge guy this this this is a person who apparently has a very low cognitive function maybe the level of a seven

[00:46:51] or eight year old and to me that seems like a really really significant task to give to to give to a person that's functioning at that level and again I don't mean that with

[00:47:01] any disrespect at all but that but approaching two teenage girls on a bridge and you know kidnapping them forcing them off the bridge down down the hill is a really high stress task so I don't know

[00:47:14] that he would that that would be the person this group would choose to give that very specific task to if it was a group of people your point too like I would be curious like I know the

[00:47:25] I think there's divergence between the Frank's memo version of the theory and the law enforcement Todd click Greg Farensey Kevin Murphy version so I'd be curious do they thread that needle in a slightly different way um I think most of the differences tend to be like the conclusion

[00:47:43] of whether this was a you know a whole a sacrifice or not but there might be little things in there that maybe I'd be curious to get I don't know I don't know how we would do

[00:47:53] that but it would be it would be great to learn um now let's talk about the mason jars and then let's switch to the poppins yeah so the mason jars really similar to the arrowhead they're in my opinion

[00:48:05] they're not very similar pictures anyway I feel pretty confident these are the pictures they're referring to uh because it's the only picture of a mason jar on Elvis Fields's Facebook and the only picture of what you might consider a mason jar on Brad Holder's Facebook page

[00:48:17] they are totally different one is of an obvious ball mason jar sitting on a table that's the one from Elvis Fields's Facebook Brad's is a picture of a glass small glass jar

[00:48:27] he's holding in his hand appears to me to be some garbage he's picked up on a nature hike he's out in the woods he's at he's actually tags the location that he's at it's a it's

[00:48:36] Harvey Preserve and Labyrinth which I guess is in Logan Sport Indiana where pictures tagged that they're very very different pictures to begin with and again there's nothing unique about them even if they were similar there's nothing about them you would consider unique now these they

[00:48:52] in fairness they were posted much closer together in time only about a month apart in in February and March of 2016 that is something you could say for that that you couldn't say for the arrowhead photo

[00:49:02] but again they're just can't stressing up how different the photos are and so it's possible you know obviously that Brad or Elvis has deleted the picture that the fence has turned in uh with

[00:49:12] this memo they file it that specifically in a couple of other instances so I would assume they would do that here if it were the case but it also seems like they're maybe just referencing

[00:49:21] directly from the quick report when they're providing a lot of these images when we get back to the the brass knuckle is one that actually mentioned that those images are not dated in the information they have who knows how much work they actually put into going and finding

[00:49:32] the originals or they just relied solely on the report for what we're putting the Franks memo together that's a good question and then for the weaponry here I think this I think

[00:49:41] what you said earlier is absolutely true this is the best case for this portion of what they're saying so tell us about these pocket knives guns assorted weaponry for sure so the the photo from Elvis

[00:49:55] Field's Facebook um which mirrors what the defense described it as exactly it's a it's a pair of brass knuckles on um some kind of it looks like maybe the backdrop is like an American

[00:50:05] flag almost it's it's not in that right layout but it's stars on a blue background so it's a pair of brass knuckles with four pocket knives surrounding it on the left and right the pocket knives are

[00:50:17] partially open to kind of make a kind of almost a spin oval connection around the the brass knuckles so it's a pretty distinctive image if you were going to copy it from someone else it

[00:50:26] would be something it's not generic like the breath like the arrowheads or the mason jar the problem at least as far as I could find is that I didn't find any image that resembled this that

[00:50:39] closely on Brad Holder's Facebook so I did find a couple of images um of brass knuckles with guns you know sort of also in in frame but they're not staged and surrounded like the field's photo is

[00:50:53] another issue and this could be a situation where I'm not finding the right picture um the right picture no longer exists on Holder's Facebook page that could be possible because all the pictures I found on Brad Holder's Facebook were actually posted after Elvis Fields posted his photo

[00:51:08] so there I'm not sure there is a photograph on Brad Holder's Facebook from October of 2016 the caption leads me to believe that that's the day that he purchased these brass knuckles which in that date is also after Fields posted his photo which was in April of 2016

[00:51:26] so not sure certainly possibly he had brass knuckles at a previous time and there is an image that used to exist that you know more mirrors Fields' photo this is the picture where they have put a footnote in the memo saying that unfortunately the exhibits weren't dated

[00:51:44] so they weren't able to verify the connection or the possible connection between the two which I thought was interesting given that this is the only set of images as far as I

[00:51:52] could find where the dates didn't line up as far as it being a recreation because the Fields photo was posted before the Holder photo which would make it pretty hard for Fields to be the one

[00:52:03] recreating the image there are a lot of images of weapons of different guns knives a couple of um on Holder's Facebook page a couple of him he identifies as his daily carry you know so something he's carrying with him on a apparently a daily basis

[00:52:19] and the brass knuckles do get added into that after that October 2016 post where it looks like he's purchased the captioning images got me a new billbuckle and it depicts what I assume is Brad Holder's hand holding a pair of brass knuckles and then they appear in images after

[00:52:35] that after that time so a couple of images do the brass knuckles are sort of at the center with you know a gun kind of off the one side and a clip for a pistol off to another side

[00:52:47] that could be similar in that way to the uh I mean it's not as staged as the Elvis Fields photo is and it's also posted after the fact so this is the one I'm the least sure about that I found

[00:52:58] the right image just because it's so specific on the on Fields this side of things but given some of the other tenuous connections in this section of the memo it's tough to know how much

[00:53:10] weight to give it if that makes sense that's a long explanation oh it's a good explanation and it definitely makes sense I we've come to the end of the memo that you put together which

[00:53:21] again I want to stress was awesome what are your overall conclusions having dug into this to the extent that you did and if anything I didn't ask you about do you think it's important

[00:53:30] for the audience to understand or know about any of this um I I think we've pretty well covered it the biggest thing I think is important to keep in mind going forward and it definitely

[00:53:42] applies to this memo is is to not just take things coming from either side of the prosecution or the defense at face value um I you know when I my first read through of the Frank's memo I was

[00:53:52] pretty blown away by it as a pretty explosive claim um they appeared to provide a lot of evidence this this you know the social media stuff was like wow they've really got some some interesting

[00:54:01] points in here and and a lot of that kind of sheen fell away as I started digging into it and actually looking at at the information that backed up what they were claiming you know I do

[00:54:12] think the memo has some still some really interesting information in it you know that if if this angle wasn't investigated fully then I do think that's an issue I mean there is there are obviously

[00:54:23] a lot of odinist um you know iconography images on Brad Holder's Facebook page so if there and there appears to be some information um you know from the Purdue professor potentially

[00:54:33] the FBI backing up the idea that the images of the crime scene could be um odinistic in nature I want to make clear I haven't seen those so I don't have anything to offer as far as you know personal

[00:54:43] opinion on that if there is odinist ties then it would make sense to look at you know someone like Brad Holder who has a loose connection to the girls um and if that wasn't fully run down

[00:54:54] then that's obviously an issue um and it gets hard to tell by the information in the memo whether or not it was it does feel like they looked into him they asked a lot of questions

[00:55:03] about how much they looked into him but they don't really ever say to me anyway providing any kind of smoking god evidence that he wasn't properly cleared even if he was cleared quickly

[00:55:13] if you hadn't held by this backed up it's time to move on the Elvis field info is really interesting but again kind of you're missing that piece of could he have gotten you know

[00:55:20] is he telling the truth what's his connection to these girls could he have gotten to delphi that day to do this um and I think they try to bridge that gap like you were saying earlier

[00:55:32] by connecting the two but that's the part of the memo that is just really speculative in my opinion it's just really almost out of bounds and really butts up against that line of like are you really truthfully presuming information here does this even make

[00:55:47] any sense at all that these images connect these two individuals together that's so well said Thomas thank you so much for doing this thanks for taking the time to

[00:55:54] compile this and then come on and deal with all our technical issues and uh and chat with us for the show we really appreciate you yeah absolutely I really appreciate the opportunity to come on um I

[00:56:04] really appreciate what you guys do you guys do or I think do a really good job of just providing information in an area that can be really speculative and tough to parse fact from

[00:56:14] fan fiction so I appreciate what you guys do thank you so much and thanks for using my fan fiction term we want to thank Tom as so much for doing this work and sharing it with us you really appreciated

[00:56:27] him taking the time and we really were impressed with his research savvy again if you'd like to follow along with his work please join our facebook group thanks so much for listening to the murder

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