The Delphi Murders: Contempt Memoranda

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[00:01:26] Content warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls as well as suicide.

[00:01:33] So I'm sure all of you remember that back on March 18th, there was a pretty long hearing in this case, which focused largely on the issue of contempt.

[00:01:48] Or to be more precise, did the defense team of Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie commit contempt of court in relationship to the leak of crime scene pictures?

[00:02:02] I'm sure you also remember that after this hearing or as this hearing was ending, both attorneys David Hennessy for Rosie and Baldwin and prosecutor Nick McLean for the people were given the opportunity to provide the court memos in which they discussed their own interpretation of what the law is and what was pertinent about all of this.

[00:02:29] So it's a couple of weeks later, both of those memos have been released and so we thought it would be a good idea for us to take a few minutes and talk about them with you.

[00:02:43] My name is Ania Keane, I'm a journalist.

[00:02:46] And I'm Kevin Greenley, I'm an attorney.

[00:02:48] And this is the murder sheet.

[00:02:50] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:57] We're the murder sheet.

[00:02:59] And this is The Delphi Murders, Contempt Memoranda.

[00:03:27] So I'd like to start out by saying something which will probably give me frankly in trouble.

[00:03:53] Sometimes on this program, well we always strive to be fair.

[00:03:57] We always try to call it as we see it and so that means sometimes we say things that get interpreted is being pro prosecution and then people who fall more along the defense side of things accused us of being pro prosecution were biased.

[00:04:15] Other times we've said things that seem to be critical of the prosecution and then people say, oh no, no, they're obviously pro defense.

[00:04:24] This is awful.

[00:04:26] Just less than a month ago I was surprised we the way we covered the story was brought up and someone actually said it's well known that the murder sheet is right or die defense using some fast and furious terminology there.

[00:04:42] So and I preface what I'm about to say with that because I think this is something that I could see potentially upsetting both sides.

[00:04:51] We love to do that.

[00:04:54] So let's assume for a moment that the leak of crime scene photos happened the way attorneys Rosie and Baldwin say it did.

[00:05:05] Let's assume that it was an unintentional leak on their behalf and that it was leaked out without their knowledge.

[00:05:13] Now with that said I think on you and I have been very clear we think this leak of graphic crime scene photos is a travesty it's terrible deserves to be taken very, very seriously.

[00:05:27] And I'm not stepping back from that for a second but with that said if it's an unintentional leak.

[00:05:34] I am not entirely sure in my mind if that rises to the level of contempt now if it's an intentional leak yes but if it's an unintentional leak I'm not sure that rises to the level of contempt I completely agree with everything you just said.

[00:05:51] So with that in mind I think previously I've said that my bias in the Richard Allen case is I want to see really great lawyering on both sides because that way when the trial is over we can say whatever the verdict is it's a good verdict.

[00:06:06] And so I had that bias going into this pretrial hearing on contempt I really wanted to see great lawyering on both sides so that whenever judge go reach her decision I could be confident that she'd had some great arguments to ponder as she reached it and so.

[00:06:30] What I'm saying is what i'm struggling to say here is that that didn't happen nope.

[00:06:38] I was really really surprised and not in a good way with the performance of David Hennessy.

[00:06:51] I felt that there was some potentially really good and strong arguments he could have made which he did not make.

[00:06:59] I felt he seemed unsure of himself he was mispronouncing names it wasn't clear why he was doing things he was calling.

[00:07:07] I was saying that he was doing YouTubeers these for no apparent reason one of the witnesses he called gets into a fight outside the courthouse and let me say this since the hearing I've had the opportunity to think about it I've talked about it with attorneys both prosecutors and defense attorneys.

[00:07:33] I think we figured out what they were trying to do there is a doctrine in the law called unclean hands and i'm really going to simplify it but basically it means if you go under situation with unclean hands that means you've acted badly and so then you don't really get the chance to complain if other people act badly so gross oversimplification.

[00:07:56] So I think that's what he wanted to do and I think he wanted to pinpoint the alleged leak of information about the bullet to Gary both debt I want to think he wanted to pinpoint that is assigned that.

[00:08:13] The prosecutor must have definitely linked that therefore he had unclean hands must have definitely linked that right yes you must have definitely leaked that out and so therefore how can he complain about leaks he has unclean hands okay.

[00:08:26] An interesting argument I think that's what he was trying to do but not once in the courtroom that day did he utter the phrase unclean hands and not once in the memo does do I see the phrase unclean hands yeah i that's just an example I really was if I were Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie I would really feel ill served by the quality of the court.

[00:08:56] The presentation they received that day oh my god yeah geez I mean let me just kind of add as a layperson I mean this was a performance that was pretty.

[00:09:08] Stunningly muddled like I guess I we had seen Hennessy in action at a previous hearing when they were when Rosie and Baldwin being actively kicked off he got up he was concise forceful assured.

[00:09:22] I he said some things that I found compelling and it was like okay so I was expecting that a version of Hennessy that's not what we got it was it was a mess frankly as you described but.

[00:09:35] I sort of thought maybe this post hearing memorandum from him would be an opportunity for him to maybe circle back around maybe come back to some of these points emphasize them and explain more about what he meant and perhaps get some things in there.

[00:09:52] That didn't quite come off during the hearing sort of an a chance to course correct and.

[00:09:57] Yeah why don't you give us some big picture stuff is what you thought about his memorandum and then there's a couple things I wanted to highlight in it well this post hearing memorandum which was found on March 25th.

[00:10:10] Just feels like an extension of the hearing itself it's it as a document as I'm reading it it rambles a lot we kind of are jumping from point to point much like the hearing it includes some things that I think there's a good idea there and perhaps like if you keep going down that road you're getting somewhere and then it swerves off path into the swamp of YouTube essentially I feel like a lot of this the problem has been secure we're walking in the right.

[00:10:40] And then the shiny butterfly of YouTube flits from the bushes and then you go running after that that's what I'm seeing with this it's like.

[00:10:49] I mean he starts out in my opinion well in saying essentially this is you know this state didn't really prove contempt that's not what it is.

[00:11:02] And that's I think that's the road to go down.

[00:11:05] Yeah and it's one of the reasons it is so frustrating to me is as I say if we assume the ball one and Rosie did not leak these pictures intentionally then it is not clear to me that this is contempt so I was really looking to see better arguments and frankly the two of them deserved better arguments.

[00:11:28] So I don't know if that counts as me being pro defense because I think they deserve better or whatever but I think they were ill served here they were ill served this was I mean it was just and then so we start off well.

[00:11:39] And we start off with some examples of like here's here's what it's not here's some problems so I feel like things are going well and at some point we just I have something I want to talk about the bottom three let's get into it.

[00:11:54] Okay I'm going to read from the bottom of page three quote the most egregious leak was the detailed probable cause affidavit to search logons property unquote so first of all.

[00:12:13] First of all is I say there's an argument to be made that what happened in October was not contempt that is not what I'm a that this argument to be made.

[00:12:25] Is it even maybe a good argument to be made? Yes but I think if you're saying that an alleged leak of a probable cause affidavit is more egregious than the leak of graphic crime scene photos of children.

[00:12:41] Then you are living in a different reality and I think it really wrecks your credibility there's been such an attempt on I would say from pro defense talking heads to minimize this leak in a way that I find very telling.

[00:12:55] I think there's a very different I think there's an impulse to essentially be like what's the big deal.

[00:13:03] And I don't know if I really find that super compelling or respectful given that essentially we've I mean as we're going to get too later.

[00:13:11] We've recently seen the sort of final manifestation of how bad this leak has gotten and I'll talk more about that momentarily I'm sure but when you have people essentially minimizing the pain of two families and anyone who cared about these girls because these horrific photos are now out there and in the hands of unscrupulous people frankly then I feel like.

[00:13:32] You're perhaps maybe to call us with your talking points it feels callous it feels pretty cold I don't think that's compelling to most people I think a better way of framing it is listen.

[00:13:45] Rosie and Baldwin are also really devastated that this happened and they they don't like that it happened it's just not their fault it's not something you can blame them for because somebody chose to do this and that somebody is much western the moral blame lies on him not them yeah that that's not the same thing.

[00:14:01] That's a compelling argument that'd be like saying if you get robbed if you get mugged I blame you for it you could say Andrew Baldwin is the victim of a crime and that you in order to make that argument.

[00:14:17] You don't need to minimize what happened what happened can just be just as bad it's just not anybody's fault or it's not the people who are being blamed in this situations fault that's a good argument to make.

[00:14:29] And I just I think it's I don't know there's sort of seems to be this kind of chorus of people who sort of come out and do the whole song and dance on behalf of the defense you know on social media and within the media and I think.

[00:14:46] I think there's just kind of like a maybe a bit of a bubble going on there where they're not necessarily realizing how they sound.

[00:14:52] I want to continue where I was in the bottom of page three quote the most egregious leak was the detailed probable cause affidavit to search Logan's property sergeant Holman testified he asked Barbara where she got and she said from Logan.

[00:15:09] However he also testified the search warrant affidavit is never left with the person just a copy of the search warrant thus Barbara statement had to be false that affidavit also had murder sheet overlaid.

[00:15:22] So I don't every page sergeant Holman never asked the murder sheet people about it and never did any further investigation as to the source and quote so a couple of things there okay can I just say this is a minor thing you should write the person's full name out on first mention.

[00:15:40] I mean I'm sorry maybe that's a journalist in me but this is driving me crazy you know well I guess the argument would be that in the testimony maybe she wasn't identified as part of the whole thing is just this.

[00:15:51] This is written in such a sloppy format it just feels unprofessional.

[00:15:56] So first of all Holman testified that they never leave the they never leave the probable cause affidavit with the person so therefore how could Logan possibly have gotten it well you know maybe they don't leave it with the person but I'm not going to say anything about our sources.

[00:16:20] But I think in the Delphi online community it is pretty well known that we're on Logan got copies of this from his attorney and that he distributed them one thing that baffles me is that it feels like Hennessy is trying to do some sort of bizarre locked room mystery style thing with the Logan affidavit but it's like doing a locked room mystery how could they have gotten in how could the killer have arrived in this locked room.

[00:16:49] And you find out that there's a very clearly marked back door into the room that was unlocked the whole time it's like yeah that's probably how that's a great comparison as I say.

[00:17:01] A person's lawyer gets a copy of all those papers so it's misleading is the person is the lawyer allowed to give the person their documents so no so that's not a leak yeah so it's misleading to suggest oh since they didn't give her on Logan the app.

[00:17:18] And we're on Logan the affidavit at the time of the search.

[00:17:21] Barbara must be lying and why didn't he ask the murder sheet people about it and also for sure and again this is not an egregious leak in second of all it has nothing to do with the events being analyzed also what hilarious to me is that he seems to think the Barbara McDonald like got the version that we had where we put our watermark on it so that's kind of.

[00:17:47] So that's kind of odd so we because he say I think those are I mean I think we both got copies at some point but we put our watermark on it so that people would know that it came from us because we were trying to essentially say this is the version we're putting out there if we put some sort of mark identifying it as ours then we can take the blame for anything that's out there that came from it we can essentially show here's you know we redacted these portions if other people release version.

[00:18:16] That are have more information than you know it's not going to be blamed on us and again if you're trying to make an unclean hands argument this just blunts the argument because you would focus like a laser on the claim about Gary Budette knowing about the bullet before the PCA was released yes you because that's a relevant one for one comparison we can argue about how valid.

[00:18:45] How valid it is and really if it does mean anything but the very least if it happened after the arrest of right it's just so dumb to be focusing on some sorry it just it just speaks to somebody who doesn't like is just more trying to kick up dirt in the water rather than actually like cats and fish this whole thing I mean I can just say it to them blue in the face I'm baffled I was really shot I'm just surprised that nobody like helped him with this after his performance at.

[00:19:15] Hearing I guess that would have been something to maybe really land the land stick the landing on the memo at least I wonder you need something else that jumped out at me.

[00:19:25] This is from page six additionally sergeant home and mr mullins testify that they were aware that mr mccleeland was exchanging information with Gary Budette the most prodigious legal revol in quote so first of all that's not my recollection of the testimony my recollection of the testimony.

[00:19:42] Is that home and mullin indicated they knew that mccleeland had received messages from Gary Budette not that any information was being given from mccleeland to budette and then no matter what you think of Gary Budette also known as fig solves it's completely inaccurate to call him the most prodigious leaker of all because he's not part of the investigation yes so Nick mccleeland can leak and rebald with.

[00:20:12] Can leak judge goal can leak anybody involved in the case can leak we on the outside can receive leaks and put out and publish leaks yes but we're not leakers yeah Gary Budette's not a leaker unless he's some sort of undercover FBI agent who's been for some reason embedded in YouTube all this time and he's not you know it's it's really as far as we know at this point it's one of those things where I just feel like

[00:20:42] there's a point with some of these things were making assertions that kind of twist the facts at some point just tumble into the misinformation or I dare I say why category for me and this is one of those things it's.

[00:20:59] It yeah I find I find some of this shocking if I were David Hennessy I would say the most prodigious leak revol was much western well because again you should be I don't know why they're not I don't I don't.

[00:21:12] You know what you can say what happened with the crime scene pictures was terrible and we feel sick about it but it's not our fault I don't know why you're not throwing Mitch Westerman under the bus in this thing because that would be the strategy that makes sense.

[00:21:31] So I don't know why you wouldn't also if we're to believe that this was his doing and he bears moral responsibility then he

[00:21:42] egregiously breach the trust of a close friend and former colleague in a way that he should have known would cause incredible damage to all those involved especially his friend.

[00:21:54] So I don't know I don't know why you're pulling punches on Mitch Westerman at this point when you're the defense I don't know why that baffles me.

[00:22:04] Yeah that's a good point and so again I don't know if this is pro defense or poor prosecution I think Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie deserved a better defense than they received in this case from David Hennessy.

[00:22:18] Well and I've one thing that's kind of interesting about this to notice that you know doesn't seem like David Hennessy is too keen on clearing out at this point the keys maybe going to be involved with other stuff that we'll talk about later not in this episode but another time.

[00:22:33] So I think I've said all I wanted to say about this is it more stuff you wanted to say or do you want to move on to McLean's.

[00:22:42] I think we can move onto McLean's we should know that there was a kind of a bizarre appendix that Hennessy also filed seems to mostly be sort of like confusing and hard to follow impressions of

[00:22:55] mostly what it seems to be communications between Mark Cohen and R who was the person who Mitch Westerman sent things to.

[00:23:04] It's a bit hard to follow and there's not really any point in reading it because we I'm sure it's maybe to like help organize exhibits or something I don't know

[00:23:14] but that that's also there.

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[00:25:51] So now I guess we can go on the state's memorandum in support of contemptuous conduct which was filed today

[00:25:58] when we're recording April 1st 2024 and i'm going to ask Anya to read I think all of section two

[00:26:06] and keep in mind that there is a person who is named in this section

[00:26:12] who we have not publicly named on this program who we refer to as are and as Anya is reading this she will continue to refer to him as are certainly

[00:26:25] two contemptuous conduct I should say quote two contemptuous conduct.

[00:26:31] The exhibits that the state put into evidence support the contemptuous conduct on the part of Brad Rosie

[00:26:36] and Andrew Baldwin outlined in the state's information for contemptuous conduct.

[00:26:41] The deception to the court began in November of 2022 when both Brad Rosie and Andrew Baldwin told the court that a gag order was not necessary

[00:26:51] because they had no intentions to talk to the media about the case within a week both Brad Rosie and Andrew Baldwin published a press release to media outlets

[00:27:00] Brad Rosie testified at the contempt proceedings that this was to curry favor with his client

[00:27:05] it is clear that the press release was to curry favor with the public

[00:27:09] although it was not a violation of any gag order it was a preview into first future contempt shown to the court by showing blatant dishonesty

[00:27:19] The next act of indiscretion was an email from Andrew Baldwin to Brandon Woodhouse

[00:27:24] This email was a violation of the gag order. The email released information from discovery to a member of the public

[00:27:32] that member of the public then further disseminated information protected by the gag order by putting it on the internet for the world to consume

[00:27:40] While the content in that email may not be egregious to the court

[00:27:45] the fact that Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie hid their ad, hid their error from the court until it was found by the state

[00:27:52] is egregious showing yet another example of the defense deceiving the court

[00:27:57] Finally, the defense intentionally and knowingly leaked information to the public in the form of crime scene photos

[00:28:05] and other discovery protected by the gag order and the protective order

[00:28:11] The state admitted screenshots of text messages between Mark Cohen and R

[00:28:16] neither of which are involved in this case in any way

[00:28:19] nor are they employees or team members of anyone involved in this case

[00:28:24] While these screenshots are voluminous, they paint a clear picture

[00:28:28] R speaks about information that is only privy to the defense

[00:28:32] R talks about it within days of the defense receiving discovery from the state

[00:28:36] R has copies of the crime scene photos

[00:28:39] He knows when defense is working on certain aspects of the case

[00:28:42] And he knows about the oral interview with Professor Turco

[00:28:46] Three days after the recorded statement is turned over to the defense

[00:28:50] The defense states that Mitch Westerman broke into their office and stole the pictures and then released them to R

[00:28:56] It is clear from the messages between Mark Cohen and R

[00:29:00] That R received the crime scene photos and other discovery from Mitch Westerman

[00:29:04] It is also clear that Mitch Westerman was feeding R several other pieces of discovery all the way up until October 2nd 2023

[00:29:12] The leak was recurring

[00:29:14] It is also clear from the text messages between Mark Cohen and R

[00:29:18] That the strategy to leaking the information is to gauge the public opinion of the leak information

[00:29:24] It was an effort by the defense to put the information out to the public to gauge their response of the defense's theory of the case

[00:29:31] This would allow the defense to change that strategy if the public response wasn't the one they thought was beneficial

[00:29:37] The screenshots from the iCloud account of Mitch Westerman

[00:29:41] The screenshots are of text messages between Mitch Westerman and Andy

[00:29:46] Again the messages are voluminous, but if the court will read through them the court will clearly see that Andy is Andrew Baldwin

[00:29:53] In the text Andy talks about writing the Franks memo and how it is a huge endeavor on his part

[00:29:59] In other messages Andy encourages Mitch Westerman to reach out to the media and push their narrative

[00:30:05] Andy further states that he has already been in touch with date line and spoke to them

[00:30:09] All of this is the violation of the gag order by Andrew Baldwin and the defense

[00:30:14] When the state was notified of the leak crime scene photos in early October 2023

[00:30:19] The defense was on a phone conference with the court and gave the court the explanation that Mitch Westerman broken and stole the photos

[00:30:25] When interviewed by the Indiana State police

[00:30:28] Andrew Baldwin stated that he gave the Franks memo to Mitch Westerman to review

[00:30:32] Then at the hearing on March 18th, 2024 the defense implied that Mitch Westerman is now a consultant of the defense

[00:30:39] And any communication between Mitch Westerman and Andrew Baldwin should be considered work product

[00:30:44] The defense has consistently altered Mitch Westerman's involvement in this case

[00:30:49] Why didn't the defense make the court and the state aware on October 10th on the October 10th

[00:30:55] 2023 phone call that Mitch Westerman was a consultant and that he had access to discovery

[00:31:01] It is the state's belief that the defense was trying to conceal or diminish Mitch Westerman's role in the leak

[00:31:07] A reasonable person can deduce that the defense was trying to hide the fact that the defense was intentionally leaking information

[00:31:14] Once the state was notified of the leak an investigation began where the state began to gather evidence

[00:31:20] As the state got closer to the source of the leak the defense changed their story from Mitch Westerman being a criminal

[00:31:25] Who broke into their office and stole discovery to Mitch Westerman being a consultant

[00:31:30] Assisting on the Delphi case whose communication with the defense is protected work product

[00:31:34] The defense intentionally violated the court's orders and leaked discovery information in an effort to push their narrative out

[00:31:40] To the public to gauge public response. This was a strategic move by the defense in violation of the court's orders

[00:31:47] The crime scene pictures specifically

[00:31:49] Continue to cause havoc across the internet and re-victimize the families of those involved

[00:31:54] As recently as March 28, 2024 a youtuber post the leak

[00:31:59] A youtuber posted the leak crime scene pictures on his channel to the public and ultimately to the world

[00:32:04] That youtube video made it back to the family

[00:32:07] Retraumatizing them

[00:32:09] It has become known that the youtuber forwarded the pictures onto other youtubers

[00:32:13] And they continue to be posted on the world wide web

[00:32:16] Despite the state and investigator spending countless hours trying to track down all the various outlets

[00:32:21] The pictures and discovery were leaked too the damage done by the lead crime scene photos seems to be ongoing

[00:32:28] Unquote

[00:32:29] So there is a lot

[00:32:32] To unpack there

[00:32:35] First of all you will note that I kept on saying that if

[00:32:40] Rosie involved when we're not intentionally leaking crime scene pictures. I wasn't sure if it was contempt

[00:32:48] Obviously if they were involved

[00:32:51] In intentionally leaking these images then it is contempt and so

[00:32:58] I was struck by the fact that in this document

[00:33:04] Nick McLean says bluntly the defense intentionally and knowingly leaked information to the public in the form of crime scene photos

[00:33:14] Were you surprised by that?

[00:33:17] Yeah, I mean if this is the most concrete we've gotten from the prosecution side about

[00:33:26] How they believe that this was intentional and why

[00:33:30] Yes

[00:33:31] And so that is from communications they have which we don't have

[00:33:36] Indicating that the purpose of leaking information was to basically test market it

[00:33:43] So this I mean, I don't really want to come to any final conclusions about any of this because I haven't seen these texts

[00:33:49] So this is obviously the prosecutions and interpretations of communications between Baldwin and Westerman

[00:33:54] so

[00:33:55] When I'm discussing this I'm kind of keeping an open mind about it as a result of not being able to see them in review of myself

[00:34:01] I'd I just prefer to be able to see things before drawing a conclusion

[00:34:06] That being said if Nick McLeanland is accurately describing that in these messages

[00:34:11] Baldwin encourages Westerman to reach out to the media and push their narrative then that is really really

[00:34:17] That's not that's bad. That's a very bad

[00:34:21] That's not good considering what happened

[00:34:24] Yes, that is basically putting the lie

[00:34:27] To the contention that they don't want to try it in the media because that would be trying it in the media

[00:34:33] And intentionally putting information out and again we haven't seen these these messages

[00:34:38] Well, it's not just that but frankly it makes it look like the defense was using Westerman in order to

[00:34:46] Put out stuff that was not allowed to be out

[00:34:48] And then it creates the impression that could that have happened with these crime scene photos where Mitch Westerman was essentially acting upon orders

[00:34:56] And that raises some interesting questions

[00:35:00] Some people have been critical of our acting like he was behaving in a rogue fashion

[00:35:06] But perhaps that wasn't the case. I'm just thinking out well if if if this was an organized

[00:35:12] If this was an organized and purposeful leak on the part of the defense

[00:35:15] Then people like are who were essentially getting this down line

[00:35:19] certainly are absolved of

[00:35:22] Much responsibility of any of this because they're essentially people who get caught up in a wider machination

[00:35:28] Yes, and as you you were careful to keep saying if I keep saying if because

[00:35:33] We haven't seen these messages. We're just basing it on how they have been presented by one side

[00:35:40] Yeah, I refuse to come down and say oh well this must be true

[00:35:43] Just because the proxies prosecution says that I don't know. I would have to look at the messages

[00:35:47] And this also is why I'd really love for Baldwin and Rosie to be represented by a better attorney

[00:35:55] Who could do a better job of getting to the truth of some of this stuff

[00:35:59] Because if I'm sure they have another side and

[00:36:03] God knows what it is because David Hennessy hasn't shared it with us

[00:36:05] Well frankly, I mean

[00:36:07] I think Hennessy should have known that they were gonna break out this stuff about the messages

[00:36:12] And perhaps it would have been a better idea for him instead of spending time

[00:36:16] You know frallicking about Fort Wayne with Julie Melvin the night before maybe figure out what you're gonna say about

[00:36:20] Westerman and how you're gonna represent him

[00:36:23] Because that seems to be an important portion of this

[00:36:25] And I think you need to walk a fine line between explaining

[00:36:29] I was sharing things with my friends sort of offhandedly and that was technically okay versus like I was telling my friend to do

[00:36:37] uh, you know media

[00:36:40] Greasing for me when I'm not allowed to do it. I think you gonna need to really

[00:36:45] Figure out what what to say there about that in order to explain that

[00:36:49] I think that's important you know

[00:36:52] Um having a bunch of youtubers who are like desperate for attention get up there and then get immediately asked to leave because they're not relevant

[00:36:59] That was not that was not a good use of his time during hearing that you're not help bald wouldn't rosy no it did not help his clients

[00:37:07] But you know, I guess he got to frolic around Fort Wayne the night before as we saw

[00:37:12] Yeah

[00:37:13] I would say that yeah

[00:37:15] Like I think a good defense in this situation is anticipating some of these things from McLean and trying to get ahead of them and diffuse them

[00:37:24] I think that is a good defense. I think it's a better defense to come out and say

[00:37:28] Well, they're gonna bring up that he told Mitch Westerman to do this

[00:37:31] But they were just talking and throwing around ideas. It wasn't meant as like an order

[00:37:35] That would be something to get ahead

[00:37:37] And diffuse instead of trying what they were trying to do obviously was basically have it both ways

[00:37:42] He's he's he victimized us

[00:37:44] He's a criminal Mitch Westerman just totally randomly did this

[00:37:47] But also he's a trusted consultant who is relied upon for his trial strategy

[00:37:51] Advice and people call him for advice all the time so you can't use any of this because it's work product

[00:37:57] They were trying to have it both ways. That's not a you don't diffuse it that way

[00:38:00] You diffuse it by dealing with it and putting it aside

[00:38:04] And you don't diffuse things by denying

[00:38:07] The obvious everyone knows

[00:38:10] The leak of graphic crime scene photos of children is certainly more egregious than

[00:38:18] A man sharing copies of a search warrant avid david

[00:38:23] Yeah

[00:38:24] I think that's pretty obvious to anybody who's not just trying to stretch in order to

[00:38:30] Be on one side or another

[00:38:32] And again, I don't even think that that is an a pro prosecution or a pro defense talking point

[00:38:37] It's just acknowledging the seriousness and then

[00:38:40] prosecution versus defense is who is to blame

[00:38:44] And I don't feel like he did a good job defending from that because I think some of the stuff that McLean puts in

[00:38:50] now raises all sorts of questions

[00:38:52] and

[00:38:54] Yeah, McLean is saying it was intentional and McLean is saying

[00:38:59] Furthermore that

[00:39:01] This one he couches a bit this when he captures a bit

[00:39:04] He says it's intentional and furthermore a reasonable person could conclude that they were deliberately

[00:39:10] Covering it up. That is lawyer speak for we don't have evidence

[00:39:14] But we strongly suspect yeah, that's lawyer speak because he's not coming out and saying it

[00:39:19] And I suspect if there was direct evidence that would be in here. It's not

[00:39:23] And certainly reading between the lines some people wondered why is McLean going to such extent to file a contemptive court

[00:39:34] If it was an unintentional thing in a great area obviously believes it wasn't

[00:39:39] But yeah, if you we now know that he

[00:39:43] believes this was all intentional and that would certainly

[00:39:46] Explain why he would pursue it as vigorously as he had I think before we well

[00:39:52] I want to say this I want to say this if you don't mind

[00:39:55] We've been hard on Hennessy right?

[00:39:57] I mean we've been hard because I don't think he did a good job with any of this

[00:40:00] I think he mishandled a lot of this contempt stuff

[00:40:03] I don't know how judge goll is going to rule but I went into this thing thinking

[00:40:07] I don't know if this will stick and now I'm not I'm not sure anymore actually

[00:40:12] so

[00:40:13] What I feel with with this is

[00:40:19] The defense

[00:40:20] Themselves Baldwin and Rosie have done themselves absolutely no favors with any of this because they have been

[00:40:26] Visibly

[00:40:28] Obviously overtly

[00:40:30] courting the press at every turn in this whole thing

[00:40:36] That's not a criticism necessarily that is an observation. I don't think anyone can look at this

[00:40:43] And say differently you can say that's a good strategy. You can say it's terrible

[00:40:46] You could say whatever anywhere in between but they have absolutely been courting the press and attempting to try this case in

[00:40:52] The court of public opinion

[00:40:54] There can be strategic reasons for doing that

[00:40:56] Let's not even draw any conclusions about whether that's bad or good

[00:40:59] But they have and so

[00:41:02] When you pair that with these allegations that McLean includes

[00:41:07] It looks worse for them. It just does

[00:41:10] Because

[00:41:11] Suddenly it sounds like maybe they went further than anyone saw but it's still within line

[00:41:17] It's still in line with their behavior and frankly

[00:41:21] You know, this is not a situation where they're accusing

[00:41:24] lawyers who've been really

[00:41:26] quiet and

[00:41:28] You know are not citing youtubers in their actual court filings for whatever reason and we're not bringing up youtubers

[00:41:37] To come do you know amateur boxing matches outside of court houses or speak and ramble on for a few seconds before getting kicked off the stand

[00:41:45] I mean like they've

[00:41:48] They've created an impression of themselves which matches some of these accusations

[00:41:54] And that's a problem

[00:41:57] That's a problem when then you're saying no, we didn't actually do this

[00:42:00] Uh very well said

[00:42:02] I believe before we go you mentioned earlier you wanted to mention something about the youtube

[00:42:09] Well, yeah, I mean this is awful

[00:42:12] But I mean it's we've already read it out so uh

[00:42:17] March 28th it looks like a youtuber who were not naming

[00:42:21] put

[00:42:23] The photos on youtube

[00:42:27] And the video has since been taken down

[00:42:29] But they're up there and it sounds like they got back to the families pretty quickly and they may have seen things

[00:42:37] And

[00:42:39] I don't know

[00:42:41] It's just really

[00:42:43] It's just sad that shouldn't have happened

[00:42:46] But it was inevitable it was inevitable because once it hit the youtube

[00:42:50] pipeline, I think it was a matter of time before it happened

[00:42:55] and

[00:42:56] And this is why when you hear that I mean hopefully you can understand that

[00:43:01] We think it's a big deal

[00:43:03] Not because it's could or bad for one side

[00:43:07] We think it's a big deal because there is a human cost to seeing something like that of somebody you love

[00:43:14] And when people say oh, it's not a leak. It's a drip. Ah

[00:43:19] And try to make light of it or minimize it or say a piece of paperwork shared by a man who received it legally is worse

[00:43:27] It's it shows a

[00:43:29] shocking lack of human compassion

[00:43:33] Imagine think of someone close to you that you love with all of your heart and think of having them take away from you

[00:43:43] And a terrible violent manner and then think of going to your computer

[00:43:49] And seeing pictures of them in a way that you'd never want to see

[00:43:54] And this is what's happening to people in this case and that's not a drip. That's

[00:44:00] That's a tragedy and is a tragedy and there's no reason to minimize it because you can basically say

[00:44:06] It's a bad thing and nobody should be faulted for it or nobody in this situation should be faulted for it

[00:44:12] There's a very easy rhetorical out which is to acknowledge the harm done and say

[00:44:17] but

[00:44:18] The people who are being accused and who may be punished are innocent of blame here

[00:44:23] That is a reasonable argument to make why people are not capable of that or maybe like using a little bit of an emotional intelligence when they're talking about this

[00:44:30] I don't know

[00:44:31] But I find it I find it troubling and now basically the worst outcome has happened

[00:44:37] And

[00:44:38] Here we are

[00:44:40] That's the thing about this case the worst outcome keeps happening

[00:44:44] Yeah, I think we're going to try to come back in a few days and maybe have a conversation with you about the crowdfunding

[00:44:53] Absolutely that'll be interesting

[00:44:56] And tell them thank you so much for listening. Thanks

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