The Delphi Murders: First Person: An Interview with Two Jurors: Part One

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[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_04] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02] In the Delphi murders case, the jurors had to grapple with a beast of a case. This, of course, was the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, a 13-year-old and a 14-year-old pair of best friends who went out for a walk on the trails of Delphi, Indiana, and ended up being murdered by an adult man named Richard Allen. That was on February 13, 2017.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_04] For these everyday people from Indiana's Allen County, things really got moving October 14, 2024, when jury selection began. By October 16, 2024, a panel and alternates had been picked. Then, on October 18, 2024, the opening statements kicked off the case. Closing arguments concluded the trial on November 7.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_04] After days of deliberating, the jury returned a verdict of guilty on all counts on November 11, 2024.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02] These jurors had to look at brutal things. Crime scene pictures, autopsy photographs. They had to spend weeks away from their lives, jobs, and families, sequestered in a hotel, ushered around by bailiffs, forbidden from really delving into the outside world at all.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_04] We watched them do all of that from afar. But now we are fortunate enough to have recently spoken to two jurors from the Delphi murders case.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02] One of them is a familiar figure to all of us. We called her our juror. We interviewed her on the podcast previously as part of our first-person series. Her name is Mia McAfee. She's great. She recently identified herself online and is fine with her name being out there at this point.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_04] She was kind enough to bring along a friend, juror number one. She's also great, and we are keeping her anonymous at this time.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02] In this first part of the conversation, we'll check in with Mia. Since we last spoke, she's had so much more time to process her thoughts on this case. She'll share that with us.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_04] We'll also get juror number one's thoughts on the performance of the prosecution and the defense, the endless sidebars with the white noise machine, and that infamous snake from Brad Rosey's closing argument.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02] Juror number one and Mia will also discuss Delphi-related conspiracy theories, the Odinism angle, and whether or not they regret their verdict. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Delphi Murder's First Person, an interview with two jurors. Part one.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_03] Can you tell us who both of you are? So I'm Mia, juror number two, as many people have learned. Good job, guys. And yes.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm here with Mia, Mia's friend, juror number one.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_02] Juror number one. And of course, Mia, we have interviewed you in the past. You are, I think we somewhat creepily, possessively called you our juror. So I apologize for that. But that was you. And so we're very happy to have you back. And we welcome juror number one. And we're just so grateful for you both taking the time to sit down with us today. Thank you. Absolutely.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_04] And Mia, now the reason people all know your name is because you kind of came forward online. What motivated you to do that?

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03] So interesting question, actually. I didn't make a decision to do it. The thing about it is I've been making comments here and there on posts since right after the trial. This time it just seemed to stick. It just really before didn't gain traction. And then this time, you know, lots of comments. So it wasn't really like a thought of decision to move forward or come forward, I guess. But yeah, it just, I guess, happened on its own this time.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02] So you're saying the internet sleuths like missed you for months being like, hey, I'm the juror. Right, right. Good job, everybody. Well, that's embarrassing. What has been the reaction like to you coming forward and identifying yourself as a Delphi juror?

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So I would say there's positivity and negativity. I was actually just talking to someone about this just the other day because they asked me, you know, what is it like? And the positive words that I have received from people and the people reaching out to me have been tenfold compared to the bad. So, you know, I don't regret coming forward.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_03] I've had some like really meaningful conversations with family members, even people that disagree. There are people out there that believe Richard Allen is innocent, but they can still have, you know, an intellectual conversation and debate. So, yeah, I think there's still an appreciation of like a job that we've done, even if you, you know, think that we got it wrong, we still did it. You know what I mean?

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah, I would say the value that I have gained from talking to the people that I have has definitely, definitely outweighed the bad.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02] That is really, really good. And we found the same thing. You can find people who disagree in different cases and have a respectful, thoughtful, you know, enlightening conversation. And that's really wonderful. It's sometimes where it goes in the opposite direction, where it's more of the behavior is the problem rather than an opinion, I think. I'm curious, have you gotten harassed? It depends what you classify that as.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03] Where I'm at with it all is the regret and the sadness comes from other people being found out through me coming out and, you know, dissecting my friends list, etc. They didn't choose to do that. So, in a sense, to me, that's harassment, seeking out people that, like, did some, like, we didn't choose to be here. We didn't choose to do this. It's not an easy thing at all to do. So, I don't know.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_03] That's really other than that of people just saying they don't agree with me. That's really all I've experienced. So, I would say that's a win. I think that's harassment.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02] I think it's stalking. And I think it's really creepy and inappropriate, you know? And that's my take. One question I have for you, juror number one, is we've already talked to Mia about some of her kind of big reminiscences and memories of the trial. And we wanted to get that from you as well. When you look back at the events of the trial and sort of your participation in that as a juror, we want to know what stands out for you or the strongest memories for you.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00] Like, way back at the very beginning, just getting the packet in the mail, because it was a pretty big packet. And I opened it, and I was like, because I've gotten, I think I've been summoned to jury duty like seven times. And this is the first time I've actually had to go. And I've never gotten a packet in the mail before. So I was like, okay, this is serious. And I lived out of state in 2017 when this all happened. So I heard about it in passing. But I guess, sorry to say, like, never really gave it a thought since because I wasn't here.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00] I didn't hear things. I wasn't close to anybody related to it. And then just going through all the questions and answering that was eye-opening. Of course, then I wanted to immediately go and look at stuff. But I said, no, I cannot do that. Because that's the whole point of jury duty is that I don't know all of this stuff. I should not go look it up. Then the next big thing was the jury selection. Was not expecting any of that. I don't know what I expected. I really had no expectations going into it.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00] But, like, I came in that morning, the Monday morning for jury selection, and I was, like, almost late. So I was just rushing, went to sit down. And then we watched that video that they do for all juries. And then when they called my ticket name as number one, I'm like, okay. So I'm definitely going the whole way. I'll be here through however long this takes.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00] And then upstairs when the lawyers were questioning, or, well, like, they gave their little mini presentation and then questioned us, like, specifically and directly. I was not expecting that. I kind of just expected to listen to things and not have to answer anything. And that's not, like, thinking back on it. That is unrealistic. But I just didn't know. You've never done it before. Yeah. Yep. So that was really eye-opening and a little intimidating.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00] And obviously I could have said that I'm psychic, so I didn't have to be on the jury. But classic maneuver. Classic. I, you know, I believe in our justice system. And I believe that if we have a justice system, we all need to, we are to be part of it. It's kind of how it's supposed to work. And this is how, like, jury duty is how they have selected for the general population to be part of it. So, yeah. So I didn't try to get out of it. Yeah.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00] So those two things and then the first day of court, also another, you know, another new experience. And everybody rising every time we came in and out of a room. That was very, very different. I mean, we got used to it pretty quickly. But it was very different. And I really, I did enjoy the time that we spent together as jurors. Because we would come back to the hotel at night and just unwind. And, like, we would play games.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00] Like, we had brought some card games and stuff. We would just, you know, hang out together, play games. Like, leave court at court. And just get to be for a little bit. And that was nice. And then the other strongest memory for me is, like, not just the verdict, but after the verdict when we got back, once again, I didn't realize that the judge would come and talk to us afterwards.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00] And then she told us the things that we didn't get to hear about Odinism and about, like, everything related to the case that they had done the pretrial hearings for that we didn't get to hear because it wasn't presented or wasn't able to be presented. And I remember just, like, sitting and listening to it. And then we got our phones back. And I went back to my room. And I called my mom. And I just, I don't know how she could understand me. Like, I was bawling so hard.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00] Because I was like, what if, after hearing all of that, what if we had let him go? You know, that was huge to me. I'm, so that was, yeah, so that was the last probably big moment that came for me from Jerry D. But, yeah. When you say, what if we let him go, like, where, like, what does that mean?

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00] Like, what if we had decided that the evidence couldn't stand that was presented and we had said innocent instead of guilty? Like, what if we had heard everything, couldn't connect enough to say that, yes, we do believe this is the person who committed this crime. And, you know, what if we had let him?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. I imagine that's, like, a big, one thing I always liked about this jury, just from what I heard from Mia, but, like, I think what you're saying, like, I don't know, I seem really chill. Like, it seems like people were getting along. And I think that's great, you know, and I think that's how it should work. It shouldn't be people bullying each other or, like, you know, like, get online or, you know, 12 angry men situation. It should be let's all respect each other, hear each other out. Like, that is how the process is supposed to work in my mind. So I always give you guys a lot of kudos.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02] I refer to you guys a lot on the show because I'm just like, people should be like, these jurors. So one thing I wanted to ask you, juror number one, and then we'll kind of go to some questions for both of you. Because we asked this to Mia when we first interviewed her. What were your views of the performance of, I think, three different entities here? The prosecution, the defense, and Judge Gull, Judge Francis Gull, who's, of course, presiding over all of this.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00] We'll start prosecution, defense, and then the judge. Prosecution, I felt they were so well-spoken, very logical, orderly, not excessively emotional, but it is an emotional thing. And so they showed, you know, they showed compassion. They showed kindness. They didn't say that, you know, this is just my job and I'm just doing my job.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00] It was felt deeply by everybody in the prosecution, and it was still handled professionally. And that was important to me. I don't know how important it is to everybody on the jury. I do feel like there are some people who are like, oh, no, we need emotional, we need more. And, you know, that's okay. Emotion is part of things.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00] But I feel like specifically this type of job, like a logical, orderly, is kind of a way to go. The defense, there were times that I heard what they had to say and could understand what they were saying, even behind the emotion of what they had to say or how they said it, I guess. But I had to keep reminding myself that the defendant is not his lawyers.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00] And I really had to separate a lot of my feelings for the defense from the defendant. And it was just a lot of, I don't know, it just seemed like there was, they tried so much through the whole gotcha moments so many times and nothing ever landed. There was nothing to actually getcha. Yeah, and maybe that's just, I mean, that is my view of it.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00] But I just, it didn't sit well with me, their defense. And then for Judge Gall, I had never met her before. So it was my first experience with her. I thought she was very professional, very appropriate. I think I had written down she allowed more silliness from the defense than I expected she would have.

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[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00] But which I guess is the other side's purview to say, you know, if we object to something or not, it's not necessarily the judge that would say that. But yeah, I felt she was very fair in like the actual trial parts, listening to each side, allowing each side to speak. And then all the sidebars that they did. There were so many sidebars. I did not expect. That's another thing I did not expect either.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01] No. PTSD flashbacks for the hashtag white noise machine. Right. Never got to interview him.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, yeah. And then to the amount of times that we left the courtroom because there's the sidebars were long. Because some of the sidebars were just short, you know, and it was quick and they came back. But then there was many times that we actually had to leave and go back to the jury room while they discussed something in depth. And I was always curious, of course, as to what those would be. And then afterwards, after the trial, I had a friend who recommended you all. And so I started listening.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00] And it was nice to hear all of the stuff that we missed during the trial because we just couldn't hear it. And that was very wonderful to hear. So I appreciate that.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02] Did you see us during the trial? Were we like really crazy, feral looking people? Or were you just blending everybody in together?

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00] Everybody was kind of blended together. So I really didn't see very many people.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00] I remember that.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02] I remember just being like these, I'm like, we're just gawking at these poor people all day. And like, and I was that annoying. This is a question for both of you. Was this, wasn't it? Like, I remember people would be like, the jurors were crying. The jurors were weeping. The jurors were furious. And me being, I mean, I probably played into that at times. I'm not even criticizing other people. Like, I probably like, they look pretty upset about this. And was that weird then, like, looking back and seeing what people may have gotten wrong about that? Or assuming what was like putting stuff in your head that maybe wasn't there?

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, I'll just say, I feel like you would expect that from people because that's really all you have to go off of. You know, everyone's wanting to know what's their opinion? Where are they leaning? You know, and you, that's the only thing that you can look at. So it was, it was interesting because we were like, you know, who's looking at us? Who's paying attention to us? Like, what do I do with my hands? That situation. So that was, that's all I would really say. I think when, when we did have feedback and we were like, when was that?

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_03] When, you know, we read something and it was like, oh, he was crying. And I'm like, who was that? And then I would try to line it up. And then we're like, he probably had something in his eye because no, that, no, he didn't. So that's all I have to say. That's amazing.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02] I think a lot of that occurred when we were watching you watch videos of Richard Allen.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, because it was quiet and you had nothing else to look at. Yeah. Because they didn't show you all the videos. Yeah.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02] I remember being like, how are we going to report on this? Like the jury looked and then people were behind them looking. Like, it was crazy. But, you know, that was something where I think they were, there's a lot of attribution of anger, disgust or sadness to you all. And then I, learning from Mia later on, like, yeah, that's not really what was happening necessarily.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00] I know there were a couple of jurors who would like, they kind of specifically talked about keeping their face completely blank. And they're very good at that. And I remember thinking it'd be great if I was good at that. I don't feel like I was.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02] So for people who are not aware, what were you guys seeing that day? Like, if like you could kind of vaguely describe it or specifically describe it.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00] We were watching the videos of him in solitary prison. Not solitary. What is it? The one man cell. So the safekeeping area that he was in. So we were watching the videos of the things that he did while he was in that cell. There was a couple of videos of him going to the infirmary and then him going to, I don't know if it was still infirmary because he was like put in a vehicle and then transported somewhere. But I think it was still in the prison area. So I don't know if that was also infirmary.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00] And then because we couldn't hear anything, we were supposed to kind of correlate that with which days were the phone calls to his wife or his mom and the things that he said then in very calm manner that he said those things. So we were like we were told to kind of compare and see if those things match up.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02] One thing I wanted to ask you both was, you know, this is a question we get a lot of. It's interesting. People really want to know this. It's behavioral oddities from Richard Allen or lack thereof in fairness. You know, when you're looking for both of you, I think Mia, you talked with us a bit about this in our first interview. But maybe if you could talk about like was he staring at people? Was he acting weird? Was he mostly calm? Did it change over time? What was your experience of that?

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_03] OK, and I probably should have said this before, but I wanted to have a disclosure of what I find pretty interesting of if I do contradict myself from the original podcast, that is just because I've had, you know, two years to really contemplate things and it was still fresh then. It's not because you're an Odinist spy.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Sent to destroy us all. OK. I wasn't paid off.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_03] I promise.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you for clarifying.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03] But I think that when you're I think people kind of forget like or not even forget, but don't really understand what it's like for a juror to come in there, because when you're seeing all the behind the scenes and you're not sitting in that chair and you're not looking that person in the eyes, you don't realize the feelings and things that come with you.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03] I will say, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people can agree. Richard Allen kind of just has that face like he has the eyes that, you know, doesn't mean anything. But when you're overanalyzing everything as a juror, you're like, what do I even pay attention to? What do I like? I would look at him and if anything, Richard Allen would probably say juror to wouldn't stop looking at me and she's crazy.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, like I wanted to say, like, I'm always, you know, trying to watch of when someone says something, like, how does he react or things like that. So as far as I would say, I don't think he did anything crazy because it's also like, again, you're there all day. Who do you look at? What do you do with your hands? What are you doing? So, yeah, I wanted to say that this time around. That's fair.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00] My experience. So we were told, you know, at the very beginning that we wouldn't get a transcript, which also I didn't think about. But, you know, there was no way to do a transcript of everything that was said in court for deliberation. So I wanted to write down as much as I possibly could. So I went through two and a half of those legal pads that they gave us just writing constantly because I just wanted to remember what was said what day and, you know, be able to look at it later.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00] Of course, we got all of the evidence that was submitted, but that wasn't everything that was said. So I wrote a lot. The only times that I really probably would have, like, looked up and looked around the courtroom and, like, maybe, like, at Richard Allen in particular was during the sidebars. And he did, he was, like, staring, I feel like, a lot. But also, he didn't have very many places to look either.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00] So at times it did seem a little bit creepy, but I had decided that I wasn't going to look away. Like, I wasn't going to be the one who looked away. So I did just kind of, like, stare sometimes until he would look elsewhere. Yeah, I didn't really change anything one way or the other, I feel like, but. That makes it happen.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. One thing we wanted to ask you, are we all part of a vast odinous conspiracy here? Um, no, I'm not. I can't speak for you all, but I am not. I notice Mia's not saying anything.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00] She's not.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03] Blah, blah, blah. No, I mean, no. No. I think I can, you know, just say that. I don't know if we're, like, actually digging, you know, into that. But I'm so surprised that the defense didn't say that I was part of it. Or maybe it was, you know, puff the magic dragon. Yeah.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02] So, I mean, like, since you've been able to look at some of that stuff with the odinous theory and maybe some of the, you know, like, what you missed, essentially, what was not allowed to be in trial. Have you found, what has your interpretation of it been? Have you found it compelling? Have you found it stupid somewhere in the middle?

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I don't find it compelling. I find it an interesting thought for people who haven't looked at the facts. Like, yes, there's, you know, there are odinous out there. And they possibly do weird, creepy things. But that everything that I saw for this case, I do not believe that was any part of this case. The biggest thing for me was hit the timeline. And none of the odinous theories that are out there fit the timeline.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00] The most logical timeline that was set forth that we can follow with him placing himself there, people seeing him at the beginning of the trail, and then on the bridge, you know, whether they were close enough to say, yes, this specifically is him or not. But he placed himself there. And that, to me, was the most compelling thing. He placed himself there in specific clothing that the bridge guy was wearing.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00] And if you look at all of that, logically, it could not be anybody else.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_03] So I wanted to also say, you know, I know that I was being facetious with the Puff the Magic Dragon thing. But, again, from a perspective of a juror and back when juror number one was saying how she felt about the prosecution versus the defense, the defense, picturing that we don't see, you know, the pretrial conferences, the arguments at the beginning and the rulings, we don't know what it's even about.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_03] So when we're hearing them trying to throw in these random scenarios like the F tree and we have no idea what they could be talking about, like, from our perspective, it's really like, one, you know, objection. And it feels like they're not following the rules. So it felt a little unprofessional from that perspective.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_03] But just in the sense of, you know, I do understand that that's the defense's job, to come up with anything they possibly can to cause doubt. My problem with it all is that if that's what you're working so hard to bring in or versus also the things that you're saying, those are your best arguments.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03] And when you're, again, not following the rules and trying to throw in additional nuances of things that aren't allowed to be mentioned to us, it didn't make us think, oh, I really wonder what's going on there or I wonder what that's about. It was really just like, man, like, do they know? Are they OK? Like, are they really? It felt like a and I know they weren't unprepared.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_03] And I Andy Baldwin, I heard, you know, now that I'm a paralegal, I'm kind of involved in the law community. And I have heard that that is a strategy of his. So I guess it's it's an act that, you know, the the writing things down, the looking disheveled, the like I'm unprepared. You're trying to Columbo it. Yeah, I mean, like someone literally knows him said, you know, like that's that's his that's a strategy.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_03] I just can't I can't understand that, at least for me as a juror. And it didn't. Translate is all things.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02] So if your strategy doesn't work with the jury, it's kind of a bad strategy. I mean, it's also I'm going to tell you like how we were coming into the case, obviously, because we reported on it with more foreknowledge than you all. I was shocked by the his opening statement. I thought it was a disaster. I thought there were certain things he was going to do that would actually have been a really good idea, like humanize Richard Allen, tell a story. And said we got. I joke that it's like I have ADHD. I go to Costco. Let's get some sugar. Oh, let's get some bread.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, let's go over there and get some cherries. Like, that's what it felt like. And it was like, you don't want to go shopping with me. And I didn't want to go shopping with him after that because I thought it was egregious. Yeah.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_04] I keep an eye on things on social media. And one thing I've heard a lot about is that during the trial, the bailiffs would be kind to you guys, maybe have like a barbecue or something. And then maybe they'd say, oh, you know, here's how I want you to vote. So I'm curious, did the bailiffs try to influence your vote in any way?

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03] Well, and they didn't get to us. So it was election year and we woke up not knowing who the president was. So that was pretty crazy. That's fun. Yeah. They, yeah, they. Yeah, they missed the mark on that one.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_03] But I, and I'm glad you bring this up because I really did want to say the bailiffs, the jurors, every single person involved in this are the kindest, most intellectual, most reasonable, good, genuine people that I've truly had the pleasure of meeting.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_03] So it really, it really does suck to hear these things. And especially the bailiffs, because, you know, you're, you're in charge of 15 people's well-being and it's not easy to live in a hotel for three and a half weeks. You know, there's, there's things that we need, things that we have to do and we can't go in public. So it.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00] Or anywhere by ourselves.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_03] It wasn't, it's not a scenario. I mean, I would hope that they are very nice to us and make us feel comfortable. And they, they made such a very, very hard situation. Manageable, doable. So, yeah, I, I think that the, the bailiff slander is unacceptable. I'll, I'll hear the puff, the magic dragon, but, you know, I'm, I'm real serious. Don't, don't mess with the bailiffs.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02] So it's not only that people are spreading lies about them trying to influence the outcome of the trial, but it's like they were very kind and professional to you. So it's even more, it's like adding insult to injury. Right. It is.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, they had never had to have a sequestered jury before, like for this long and this like far away from home. I remember after they were kind of talking a little bit about, you know, this was like a huge new eye-opening experience. And like now we kind of know what to do. Like things like, you know, making sure families can visit because, you know, that's huge.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00] You don't want to demoralize your jury either by completely not letting them see anybody. But they did everything in the most professional manner. Yeah. They were wonderful.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_04] I'm curious. Both of you have indicated that you've kept up with some of the information that's come out since the trial. Do either one of you regret the verdict?

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00] No. No. I, like, I am an overthinker. And so I look at everything that I have seen since trial. And, you know, I think, well, you know, what if we did get something wrong? What if it? And then I go back and I think, no, we saw the evidence that was presented to us. We gave our verdict based on the evidence that was presented to us.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00] And I believe, I believe with my whole heart it was strong enough to convict, obviously, because that is what, you know, that's what came back as a conviction. And so, no. I don't regret it at all. I feel like the only thing that I think of when I look back on it is sadness that someone made those decisions that put us in a place where we had to say a guilty or not guilty. Like, I hate that someone made those decisions.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03] So, no. I mean, to answer your question, Kevin, I, after looking at all of the information, I still feel very, very confident in my decision as far as my opinions on whether or not that information should have been provided to us. That's neither here nor there to answer this question, at least.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_03] And I think that really speaks to, because, you know, I'm a very, and I know people say or you're not supposed to have a bias. I think everyone has some type of, like, bias just from their life and things like that. And I am a very, typically a defense-leaning person.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, they had the briefing for the appeal and, you know, there were the points there. And when I hear, you know, from other people all these other things, it's like, well, for one, I know that they might have, they probably would have said that in the briefing as if that was accurate or if it could lead to anything.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_03] So, most of this information and the stuff that wasn't provided to us feels frivolous or subjective or unproven, unwarranted. Yeah.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. The appeal, to a certain extent, revolves around the idea that, oh, if the jurors had been presented this particular piece of information, maybe they would have come to a different decision. So, I'm curious. You've both followed the appeal. You've heard about the information that they theorized might have led you guys to reaching a different verdict. Would it have caused you to reach a different verdict if you had been exposed to some of this additional information?

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00] I will answer that, but I want to say before I forget that, I don't know if you remember, I'm sure you very much remember the defense's closing statements. I burned into my memory. Was so appalled that everything he said before that left my mind. He, like, he shot himself in the foot, I feel like, so hard. And I had to keep reminding myself, once again, I had to keep reminding myself that the defendant is not his lawyers.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00] And I had to, like, I really had to come back to a place where, okay, I'm looking at this evidence. I'm looking at evidence. I'm not listening to his crazy spiel and rant. So the snake didn't sway you, juror number one? No, it made me very angry because he started, basically what he was telling us, and I understand it's probably a tactic as well. But it's a bad tactic if you had that reaction. Yes.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00] What he was telling us is that this trial is no longer about this person's guilt or innocence. It's about the justice system in particular, in general. And that is not why we were there. I, whether I agree or not that he should have been held in Westville, that has, like, that doesn't, that's not why he's, that's not why we're there that day for that month.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02] Two kids got murdered.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. That is something, and I guess that's what he's trying, maybe they're trying to do with the appeal, but that is something that can be addressed at a different point. But, yeah, it made me immediately angry when I realized what he was trying to do. And I'm sorry, now that I said that, I cannot remember your question. The snake has banished everything from your mind.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01] Once again, once again, it laughs.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_04] Would some of this information that they say in this appeal, oh, if the jury had heard this or they hadn't heard this, things would have been different? Would it have been different?

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00] Not for me, no. So, like I said earlier, it was, it was the timeline for me. Once, so we, we got all of the evidence, which included that giant board of, of the aerial view of where everything happened. So, what we did is we went through and we put, like, little post-it notes with times, timestamps of everything that we knew for sure. We timestamped things and then everything else that was discussed but didn't have a specific timestamp that we could say, at this time, this happened.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00] We kind of looked at it, but we didn't add it to the board. And then we, as a group, had to come to the decision, do we think that Richard Allen is bridge guy? And if we do, then, you know, this is the timeline that's set up. So, yeah, it took, I think the first day, maybe the second day of deliberations, we, we all decided that we came to that conclusion, that he was bridge guy. So, then we moved on from there to, like, the confessions and the bullet and all of those kinds of things.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00] Answering the question, no, I don't think, because of the timeline that was put forth and I think is factual, I don't think Odinism would have changed that. Especially because there's no specific way of connecting it, which is what the pretrial hearings were for. There's no nexus. So, because seeing all of that information here now after, I can't connect it in my head, so I take it out. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything to me.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00] That makes sense.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_03] And regarding the confessions, again, I'm, I'm no judge. I feel like the, the confessions specifically are something that the jury should be able to weigh. You know, we're, we're trusting the jury with a big decision here. If that's the case, we can also trust the jury to be able to weigh the fact that he may have or may not have been psychotic at the time that he said that and whether or not we believe there was truth to them or not.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03] So that's where I'm at as far as the confessions. And circling back to before when I was saying I'm very, tend to be defense leaning, I was very picky on what I use to sway my decision. So back to like the Odinist theory and the things like that. When they're so frivolous, we would not have, I hate to speak for other people.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03] I would not have taken that into account at all without pretty strong evidence. And that just doesn't exist. So to me, between the confessions that I didn't, I didn't add to weigh into my decision, the Odinist theory wouldn't have been enough. Like I'm looking for specific, factual, proven evidence.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02] And I feel like from what you said to us, too, like you're weighing did the state meet its burden? And if they didn't, then you can't convict. And if they did, then you will convict. And it's like it's it's he's racing against himself versus like, oh, the Odinists are going to, you know, prevail potentially.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00] And we did have specific conversations while we were deliberating. If if each individual person could agree that the state met its burden. And we did all agree that they met their met their burden.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02] Tune into part two once we get that up on the feed. We'll wrap up our discussion with these jurors then. And thank you so much to Mia and juror number one for chatting with us. We really appreciate them. Follow Mia on TikTok at it's Mia Cake. That is I T S M I A C A K E. I think she's got a really fun account.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_04] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_04] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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