The Delphi Murders: First Person: An Interview with Two Jurors: Part Two

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I am in love with Miracle Balm from our new sponsor, Jones Road Beauty. Now, let's be clear, I'm not the biggest makeup wearer in the world. Sometimes I skip wearing makeup because it just doesn't feel good. It's too cakey, it looks bad or off, and sometimes I'm just in way too much of a rush to apply it well. But when I put on my Miracle Balm, it looks natural, fresh, effortless. I put it on and I could head out to dinner with friends or a little date night with Kevin, or we could go to court. I love how lightweight it feels, and I love that it gives me a bit of a glow.

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[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02] For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free full-sized mascara on their first purchase when they use code MSHEET at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code MSHEET at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. I'm Anya, and this episode is the second and final part of our discussion with two of the jurors from the Delphi murders case.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_04] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02] Today, we'll continue on with our discussion with the two jurors from the Delphi murders case. These two women both served on the jury that convicted Richard Allen on all counts back on November 11, 2024. This, of course, is the case of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams, a 14-year-old and 13-year-old pair of best friends from Delphi, Indiana, who were murdered by Richard Allen on February 13, 2017.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_04] One is Mia McAfee. We previously talked to her on our podcast. She recently identified herself online and is okay with her name being out there. We also talked to juror number one, who we are keeping anonymous. Just as a quick note, we had to leave the library before the interview was over since it was closing. So if the audio in this episode sounds a bit different, that is why.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02] In this part of the interview, both jurors eloquently break down their views of public service, whether or not they think there should be a new trial for Allen, and their heartfelt experiences of being on a jury in such a tumultuous case. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_04] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Delphi Murders, First Person, an interview with two jurors, part two.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00] It's almost for the greater good.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] I feel like as much as it was my duty to make that really, really difficult decision, I think it's equally as useful for us to have a platform that we can talk about what we experienced, what we thought, what we thought of who, without experiencing backlash just for science, guys. Like, that way you can get into a juror's mind, and that's beneficial for the prosecution. That's beneficial for the defense.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_00] And I just feel like that's something that's more worthwhile than, you know, again, like the negatives that I'm receiving from people.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02] I concur. And also, as you said, it's beneficial for everyone to know. Don't we want to know? And I think some people don't. I think that's the thing. And if you don't want to know, then you probably shouldn't be commenting on the case, because then you're not curious enough to really kind of engage with it. Sorry to editorialize, but...

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04] I remember after the trial, I saw Andy Baldwin, for instance, saying, I'd really love to talk to some jurors. So I'm curious, since the trial, have you talked with anybody who's been a figure in the case?

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00] I haven't, but I will make Anya and Kevin my de facto managers. I am open to having, you know, conversations with people again, just for that greater good, for science, for that information. So yeah, not an open table, but, you know, the people directly related to the trial, if anyone wants to talk, I'd be willing to.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01] A year later, after this trial was over, I did go back to Delphi because I liked the town. And it reminded me of like the tiny little town I grew up in. And I wanted to go back and see it because we just went from the hotel to the courthouse and we saw nothing else. And then I like, when I listened to y'all's podcast, I heard about all the good food and all of the different places to see. And I wanted to go to the bridge as well. So I did go back and I hadn't planned on talking with anyone,

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01] but I went to the courthouse and I was just walking through and looking at things. And I went upstairs just to see if maybe the lawyers were there that day. And I did end up talking to Mr. McClelland and Ms. Steiner. And they were really wonderful. Of course, they had so many questions. But yes, so I did talk with someone. It wasn't planned. And I would be willing to talk to the defense, but I don't know.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, I don't know what specifically I can say. Right. So, I mean, I guess if they have questions, maybe they could also go through you all if they would like to do that.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02] Or people will call your people.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01] Like Mia said, like for science, you know, but because I do believe this. This is a for normal everyday people. This is not a process that you think about a lot and it doesn't get talked about and you don't discuss it with people. You don't think about it. And I think that if we're going to be a possible like jury pool, which every person should like is, that it's something that should get talked about.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02] What is your view on the overall media coverage of this case? Now that you've been able to, you know, trials over, you can look at stuff, you can kind of decompress your experience compared to how it's been portrayed in different media projects. Obviously, a pretty broad question, lots of different media, lots of different opinions. But what is your take on that?

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00] So my take, I will say, as you guys know, and not just blowing smoke, but the reason why I do trust you guys and agreed to go on the podcast originally is because I listened to it all. And it was the by far most accurate depiction than I've heard any other place. Since we were there and no. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You guys have to remember that. Okay.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00] So and outside of that, the only other thing I have to say about the media is the documentaries. My God. God. And I can't hate on you, Hulu, because obviously there is a sense of it has to be interesting. And like, I think that also is what leads to why, why it's so hard for the people that believe Richard Allen is innocent to get a handle on that or to be open to considering

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00] that is just because one is boring and two, it, it, it, it's hard to let go. You know, it's been a long time coming. I know that even all of us that have, you know, been connected with it, it's, it's been a really long time and you feel very connected to these people in the situation. So I don't blame anyone for that, but I do think that's kind of an underlying reason.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01] And like the, speaking to the connection with people, I feel extremely connected to people. I don't even know their first names, you know, like, because we were, it's, it's crazy, but we were there in a courtroom looking at people, the same people every day. And I was like, I'd look at somebody and be like, you know, I feel a connection with you. I've never talked to that person in my life. I've never like, so I understand, I understand how you can want to be part of something.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01] I think some people too are just like, Oh, I'm going to be the investigator. I'm going to be the one who breaks this case. I'm going to be the one who finds the new thing, you know, whether that's selfish or like, like for him or for them. It doesn't like some people think that way, I believe, but, um. Mean character syndrome. Yeah. That's what the kids call it. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I said to you earlier, but I had a hard time just coming today to speak

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01] because I felt like there was nothing really that I had to offer that hasn't already been said, except for the personal like experience of being a juror and seeing things there. Like other than that, facts wise of the case, you know, evidence, I have nothing to add to that. I'm wasn't a part of any of that gathering of information of putting it together. I love the way the prosecution put it together and gave us chronology and timeline. There were a few days that were like very boring days.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01] And I don't, I don't mean it, you know, in a bad way, but like of the just setting up. This is the area where the Hoosier Harvest Store is. And this is where the bridge specifically is. And this is the video of walk of going to the bridge. Like I do kind of wish we would have gotten to see the bridge. I don't know that it would have made any difference, but it would have, I think it would have helped for me anyway to like be able to picture it in my mind, but it really doesn't change anything. Absolutely.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02] One thing I was curious about was what do you feel like people don't understand about this case? And maybe why is that? Oh my gosh, the notebook is coming out. I love this. You're so organized.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00] So I notated this earlier because it's something I really wanted to speak on. I've talked to a lot of people in public as people may know here. I'm kind of like not afraid to talk to people about it. Always up for a conversation, a debate. I love a debate. And that's what's kept me in these arguments on Facebook, you know? So I'm not opposed to that. But I truly find it interesting. People that think Richard Allen is innocent.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00] My first question is always, why? And, you know, whatever they say. And again, I alluded to this before. It's a grab bag of things. So outside of that, my next question is always, and where did you learn this? Or where did you do your research? And guys, I'm not kidding. Every single person has said TikTok. No.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02] Not to hate on your guys' TikTok. No. No, but you shouldn't be just basing it. Here's the thing. If you want to learn about stuff, I'm sure there's great TikTokers. I'm not. But like, just compare it and contrast and don't come down on a heavy, hard opinion based on just that. I don't want people to form a hard opinion based on us. Like, I want you to read and do a bunch of stuff. But yeah.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00] And that's the beauty of us being able to form our own opinions based on our feeling of things and our research and our life experience. But if you want to have an intellectual conversation, I'm going to need people to have knowledge outside of what someone else said on a video on TikTok who also wasn't there. You know?

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01] Because the courtroom was small maybe and they couldn't get in. You know? There might be other reasons that they couldn't be there, but they weren't there is the point.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00] To answer your question, as far as what people don't believe, it's a lot of different things. I think it's more of a back and forth of what you're saying is wrong and here's why and what I'm saying is right and here's why. And without even trying to weigh logic or actual evidence and information. So there's really not one or two or five or ten things to even say in that question, in that scenario.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_04] I'm really going to oversimplify here. But basically, the claim in the appeal is Richard Allen did not get a fair trial. Therefore, he deserves a new trial. You were there every day. You saw this trial. Did he get a fair trial?

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01] I believe he did, yes. I'm no judge.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00] So I have to preface with that. I have to—I'm not making my decision based on the knowledge of what a judge would have. So really, at the end of the day, my opinion on this doesn't matter. My job as a juror was to go with what's provided to me. I personally, based on the appeal and the hearing and the brief, I don't think the claims—one would change anything.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00] But it's not my call to decide if something's unconstitutional or not. What I will say is if it was, in any sense, even one percent, then I would want Richard Allen to have a fair trial. And again, that's not my decision. It's up to those three appellate judges. But I would want him to have a trial, a new one.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00] And I think there's a little bit of an added benefit in there of, you know, giving them what they want. And then I would bet money on it. It'd be the same outcome. Which, again, is fine because the outcome being the same doesn't make, if it's found to be unconstitutional, constitutional if it wasn't.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02] You raise a really good point. There's a big difference between guilt and innocence and fair and unfair in our system. And that is why we rely on the appellate judges with their expertise to determine, was this unfair? Was this unfair in a way that changed the outcome? That's another big part of it. You know, we can't expect the perfect anything, including a perfect trial. But if something went wrong enough to change the outcome, personally, I don't see it. But I think it's really—I completely agree with you, Mia, that we have to be open to what the judges have to say.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_04] I don't know if you want to answer this question, but I remember the last time we talked to you, you talked about how the experience might have inspired you to pursue law as a career. I'm curious, are you willing or able to share with people what you're doing now?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So I actually, not long after trial, did a little career pivot, became a paralegal. So I've been doing that ever since. So yeah, I've been pretty immersed in law. I'm obviously learning a lot of things. As far as law school goes, I'm kind of evaluating if that is a hill I'm wanting to go over. I'm very happy being a paralegal.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00] So it's still in the plans. Not totally sure, but definitely something in the law area.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02] That is so freaking cool.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_04] It is. How did the experience of being on this jury and going through this, has that helped you in your work as a paralegal? We'd like to give a big thank you to Vinted, the sponsor of this episode.

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[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. It's not as much of doing anything with juries or jury-related. That is truly my passion and what I would like to do in the future. And I would really, really a goal of mine would be to use this experience to do anything I can to help others, whether it be a defendant, a juror, a prosecutor, defense, a judge.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00] You know, I'm wanting to spread the wealth. But yeah, I don't, it's pretty just, you know, day-to-day boring law stuff with what I do now. But I do do a lot with children and families and making sure that, you know, they're safe and where, you know, where they need to be keeping them safe. So to me, it's still kind of a connection that, you know, fulfills my love for that.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. I mean, this case is all about children, too. I mean, it kind of, kind of, there's a through line there.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_04] So we've heard how this case affected Mia. How has serving on this jury affected you and your life? Jury number one.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01] It made me think about a whole new area that I've never thought about before. I have gone through my life and never thought about law, really, because I've never had to be a part of any case, any trial. I've never talked to a lawyer before. It just made me think about the justice system in particular differently than I had before, which was really just not thinking about it.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01] And I don't think that's a good way to live life either because the justice system is a huge part of the United States and life here. And so I was going to tell you all, too, I listened to your episode about, like, where Mr. McClelland and I can't remember his name, but the. Tim Sled. Yes. I was like, oh, wow. Lawyers are people, too.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01] And just the care that both of them on the defense and prosecution side put into, like, it is not just an occupation for people, for those people in particular. It is their vocation. It is what they're passionate about. And it showed on both the defense and the prosecution side. And I love that because, like, with my work, there are people who do it as a job and it's a job. And then for me, like, I love what I do.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01] And so I can see both sides of that as well. You know, like some people just think things are a job and then other people, it's everything that they are. And it's nice to see that there are people that are like that in the justice system.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02] I thought it was really cool. I'll just say that because you said that I thought it was neat in that case that both men. So Tim Sled was a prosecutor. Then he went over to defense. McClelland was, of course, a defense attorney, went over the prosecution. So I liked how they could see both sides and maybe empathize a bit because I think I see a lot of sniping, like prosecutors hating on defense attorneys, defense attorneys hating on prosecutors. I see them both as two sides, you know, they should be two sides of the same coin that are both very necessary and have an important role to play.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_04] I just want to say that I'm glad that after being exposed to, like, Nandy Baldwin and a Brad Rosey, you also got to hear from a Tim Sled who is a defense attorney, but he's a very honorable one.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02] And I think most defense attorneys on the spectrum, I'd like to think, are much more on that side.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_04] You made a few comments when we were talking that I thought were very important about how you had to separate your feelings about the defense from your feelings about the defendant, Richard Allen. I'm curious, what exactly were your feelings about the defense? What did they do that made you feel, obviously, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you have very negative feelings towards them.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's probably, you know, on a personality-based thing where I like logic. I like things being presented to me. Like, you can have emotion about things, but I don't like for emotion to overrule everything. I also don't like for logic to overrule everything. So I kind of like, I like to be as neutral, I guess, as possible.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01] And I understood, I had to keep reminding myself, and I did understand that, you know, the defense is here to, to give us doubt. Like, that is their purpose. I was very confused on the way they tried to do it. Do you like snakes?

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01] Actually, I kind of do. Okay. I kind of do. Not that one. Um, but yeah, it was just, I think, I think one of the things, I never, I try to never go by initial opinions. Yeah. Because anybody can have a bad day. Yeah. Um, so like in, in voir dire, is it how you say it?

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01] Um, when, in the jury selection, because Rosie in particular asked me specifically, if I thought my brother, which I have a brother, if he committed a robbery, if I thought he would run. I didn't give him the answer he wanted. So he kept poking and he, which I understand he's, he's, he's trying to get to a point.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01] But after a certain point, you would think that he would realize he's not getting that from me and either change the question or change the way he's trying to do things or just stop. And it seemed like he just wouldn't. And that, that was frustrating. But I also, that was the first day I'd ever met, like, met or talked to him. So I thought, well, you know, definitely not just going by that experience.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01] I will get, and then over and over in the courtroom, it was just little thing after little thing that kept reinforcing that initial opinion. Yeah. And that was very hard to get past.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00] Probable cause.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, gosh. I'm going to make it simple for you. What was it? I'm going to dumb it down for you guys.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01] I'm going to dumb it down. Like, no.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02] I don't under, I don't know why they let, they should have had OJ do all the, I thought, you know, she would have been fine. That was, I don't know. There was a lot of strategy. We try to separate too because we, we were widely criticized because we were very critical of the defense attorneys for much of our coverage at a certain point. We felt like things were happening that were not ethical. We felt like things were happening inappropriate. But that doesn't mean a man is guilty. That's, I mean, that's like, you can have just terrible lawyers or you can have really good lawyers and be guilty. Like, it's like, let's just let the process play out.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_02] And, but I think it is very important to separate those things because we see wrongful convictions and it might be because of incompetent counsel. So it's not a black and white issue. Yes, please. Okay.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00] Sorry. I just had a little excerpt. I wanted to bring light to kind of maybe like the intimate experience of when all 12 of us wrote down guilty.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_03] Oh my gosh.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00] Um, I still will never forget it. Um, but I, I think when I, when the debates happen and the arguments, it feels a lot like people get the idea that we were just ready to convict him. And, you know, until you have been called to convict someone of child crimes, not just crimes, child crimes. It didn't feel like I'm a person that should give an opinion on something like that.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00] It didn't feel. So I really, really did not want Richard Allen to be guilty. I, I went a long time trying to discount everything and, you know, the evidence, the timeline, and it just gets to a point where you have to be logical. But again, none of us wanted to do that.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00] It was a, it was something that maybe a lot of us, the hardest thing we've ever done before and something we'll never forget. Um, and that, that moment when our final vote finished and the last paper opened and it said guilty, there was not a dry eye in the room because we knew what was, you know, to follow.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You took it so seriously and the weight of it, like it's not casual.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01] What was that moment like for you? Thursday. I think it was Thursday. We started deliberations. We of course picked a foreman. We picked the foreman. Nobody had any, any hand in how we picked a foreman. So we actually, we all wrote down, I think like names of people we would want to be foreman. And we put, I don't think any of our votes were verbal or like a hand raise. We wrote down everything, which I think was helpful with not having, feeling pressure for anything. Um, so we wrote several names down.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01] The person who had the most, their name written down the most became our foreman. Um, and I'm, I want to say too, I am so glad that he was our foreman because, uh, just like his personality and the way he went about it. He made sure everybody got to speak. He made sure people weren't spoken over. He made sure everybody heard what they needed to hear. He was just, he was wonderful. He made sure that everything went well.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01] And I know it was a, it was a strain on him as well to know that he was kind of in charge now of us 12. It was a, it was a huge strain on him. Um, but he did it so well. And then I can't remember. We did the first vote the first day, right? On Thursday. Um, and it was, I think Mia has said before, but it was the three undecided. It was never a guilty and innocent. It was guilty and undecided. So it was three.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01] And then the next time we did the vote was after we watched the videos again. And then I actually had changed mine to undecided just because I think that was a Saturday. And I wanted to make sure that I personally had enough time to sit with all of this information and to think about everything. Because then I knew since it was Saturday, we would be coming back Monday. And so I just went and I wanted to make sure that if anybody else had changed theirs from undecided to guilty, that I at least had time to think about it longer.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01] But then, so it was four then undecided. And then Monday we did and it was all guilty. And so I had asked the foreman, I was like, I can't sit here and just listen. Can I be like your unofficial secretary? So I would write stuff down and then everybody, like the votes came back and I like read them out and like opened them and read them out. And he stopped everything and he's like read it again immediately.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01] Like the second time just to make sure that this is what we're saying. This is what we're agreeing on. And everything was guilty twice. And it was very emotional. Yeah, it was very emotional.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_04] What was it like in the courtroom when the verdict was read?

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01] I feel like less emotional for us because we had already gone through our feelings on everything. And then we were also told by the bailiffs, they said take everything from the jury room because immediately as soon as the verdict is read, we're leaving. Like we're taking you guys down and you are leaving the courthouse. So we had everything with us. We were ready to leave. Everybody that I saw anyway was very respectful and kind of quiet with when the verdict was read. And so that was helpful for us.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01] But yeah, it was it was emotional. And then immediately as soon as we got in the vans and left, we had to sit and wait for the train. Classic Delphi experience. Classic Delphi. So yeah, but it was it was so emotional.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I see you getting emotional remembering it right now. Mia, can you talk about that?

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, yeah. So yeah, like even just talking about it really just brings me back to that that second that the last one was open because you're even though I. Put guilty down, I still was like, yeah, maybe it's not done yet, you know, and and that's the thing.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00] Like it's you have to reason with logic separate from your feelings. So it was tough. And then everything was just so quiet in the courtroom. And, you know, we don't. No one knows if there were going to be riots or what was going to happen. So we we pretty much jogged down those. What how many how many steps? 80 some. I counted.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02] They were slippery.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00] Man, my quads after we left were insane. But yeah, I mean, and and honestly, I did get I wanted to say to you, I got some backlash last time for being joyful, funny, joking.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02] How dare you do that?

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00] And guys, that's really just my personality. I it doesn't mean that I'm not sad and have feelings about it or care about the girls or Richard Allen because I saw both sides of it, too. And I think some I think now that we're at the point we are, it's OK to think of the good things, too, because honestly, there were there were the relationships made.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00] The outside of the trial, we still were living life. You know, it didn't end at five o'clock when court was adjourned. So there was a lot more of that experience than just what people experienced in the court.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_04] You guys have become friends.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. We have. I picked her since day one.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02] I literally. OK, I have to say that you said you were the black hat and you were the golden retriever of the jury. So I'm obsessed with that. The dynamic duo. I love it. So I need to share that.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01] Mia, after I got to know Mia a little more, I tell her she is my she's my little sister. She reminds me exactly of my little sister and she is another little sister.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00] So and speaking of only child syndrome, I am one of those. So so having someone there and our rooms were right next to each other, one and two. So we were we got to be right next to each other. I turned her room into the hangout. I made sure that she was forced to be around people, even though she hissed at us. But yeah, I I do value that part of the experience.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00] And it's hard again. It's no one will ever be able to understand unless they they were there and had to go through it. But when you leave your home to get on a charter bus to be taken to Lafayette with no one that, you know, to see some of the most horrible things and have to make one of the hardest decisions of your life.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00] Having interpersonal relationships with the other jurors and the bailiffs. That's the that's the thing. Like we needed to have times where we could smile, you know. So I hear you.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I remember a couple of times getting back from jury duty, like after we came back on the bus. And I would just I just went to my room there. There was two times in specific. I'm not a crier, but there were and I can't remember the days. I think the first one maybe was the day when it was all the pictures. And honestly, like because of because of my job, I see a lot of horrific things.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01] So I don't want to say I'm callous to it, but it doesn't usually carry the same weight. I feel like for every other person, maybe normal people. But the thing that I still try not to think about is her phone case. And, you know, it just brings. It brings everything closer.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01] It makes everything real in a way that just pictures don't. Because obviously they're real. They're very real. And that was is horrible and horrific. But. The prosecution being so. Kind to the girls in their family and because they had to present all of this to us and there's many ways they could have done it. And they I feel like it was done in the most respectful way that they possibly could.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01] And I appreciate that so much. It's really well said.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I hear you. And I will say, like, you know, we weren't in the situation, the pressure cooker that you all were. But it's not bad to form personal relationships with people that you're in a crazy situation with. We did. We're trauma bonded with a bunch of people waiting in line with us because, of course, we did because we're human beings. And, like, I love those people and it doesn't make it that we're. Making light of something that is like the worst thing I think anybody can experience, which is what these families have gone through.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_04] During the trial, we were talking to like security people and there was a lot of concerns that people were going to try to dox you guys. There are reports like a YouTuber out in the parking lot, like trying to get people's license plates numbers and things like that. Were you aware of those sorts of things while all this was going on?

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01] I think I do remember hearing once we got to like Lafayette, I do remember kind of hearing that there was a YouTuber who had been like trying to get everybody's personal information. And I just remember thinking that was crazy. And then I remember the day, the one day driving back at like 90 miles an hour. And then when we got back, they told us that somebody was following us. I remember the first day before the vans were like the windows were blacked out, people trying to video up to get pictures of the jury and at least their faces.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01] And like, I remember thinking that this is just crazy. I don't understand this. This is not the kind of person that I would be. But yeah, I just remember thinking it was a little crazy. But I appreciate everything the bailiffs and the judge did in particular to keep us safe. I really keep keeping us safe.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01] And I remember when she came to talk with us after she goes, she said specifically, she's like, I tried to keep the defense from wasting your time, which I feel like in their push to give doubt, some of it was time wasting. She said, I'm sorry that they did that because this could have been done maybe a week or two earlier. But I think the process, this whole thing was what it needed to be. I think it went as long as it needed to.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I think everything happened as it needed to for this.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_00] Anything to add on that? So, yeah, I mean, guys, if if if you receive news and it starts out with, yeah, we got their license plate number and they drive a red Ford Focus. Good luck. It's going to lead you down the wrong the wrong path anyway. But I mean. I don't know what else to say other than that. I mean, you can't reason. I don't know.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02] It's hard to reason with people who are that far gone. Like, I think there's a lot of people who may not understand the case, but they're really acting in good faith and you have a discussion with them. And there's people who are doxing others, harassing others and acting totally insane. And they should be not doing what they're doing, but they're doing it anyway. And it really doesn't seem like it's something you should have to explain to somebody to say, hey, don't do this.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know how you fall into doing that, but I think it's the nature of the true crime beast at this point.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_04] I'm also curious over the last two years or so since this trial, you've listened to a lot of people talk about it, including us.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02] God help you.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_04] So before we wrap up, are there things that you want people to know or are there things you want to say?

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02] Or like you guys, again, are so much more organized than us. You have notebooks. We're just we're out here with the phone. Like if there's anything we didn't get to or you wanted to emphasize, please like please say it now. Like feel free to.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00] I feel like I've already inserted myself and done that this whole time. So I feel like we've covered what I wanted to. Again, back to the TikTok news. Guys, the transcripts are there. Just just do some reading, you know, like that is on the record. That is, in fact, true. So, you know, just really try to vet who you're listening to and look into it yourself.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00] We're smart people, guys. Like and, you know, I when I ask people, you know, when they say something and I I'm like, OK, well, if if he shouldn't have been kept by himself in a room. Put him in general. Yeah. Wouldn't have had a trial. I haven't I haven't heard anyone say what they should have done otherwise. And that's what I'm kind of getting at. That's like a specific example.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00] But there's a lot of, oh, well, this was wrong and this was wrong. But zero. Zero zero idea of how to fix it or what could have been done otherwise.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It feels like a lot of gotcha stuff and not a lot of. OK, here's what should have happened instead.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01] Before we're done, I do have to give a shout out to my my family. She I told them that I was coming tonight and she's like, you better you better say not my name. But she's like, you better talk about me. Yeah.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02] Doc's your sister on the murder.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Her and then my redheaded best friend who told me about you guys to begin with. Thank you, redheaded best friend. Thank you. So, yeah, I I didn't listen to a lot because I listened to you all first. My redheaded best friend told me to listen to you guys because she had she deep dives into like so many different things and she loves it and is a little crazy about it. But but finds the people who are maybe more impartial.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01] And so her telling me about you guys is what made me listen to everything then. And then I also listened to all of the like the first person interviews that you guys did, which I appreciate it, because like like I said, I felt like I knew everybody, but I didn't know anybody. And then afterwards, after hearing all of that, I was like, OK, yeah, this is this is more humanizing. All of these people that I had heard, you know, some of the things like this person's the devil because they, you know, they did this and I didn't like it.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01] And or I didn't think that was accurate. And so hearing them speak to their experience from start to finish with this case was was good. And I appreciated that.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00] I wanted to say the last thing I'll say is. The families, my heart goes out to the families of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. And when I see people say things about them and like it could be their fault or, you know.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00] So it there's that's another level of evil, you know, and and to act like you're being a humanitarian or someone standing up for someone who was wrongfully convicted. Simultaneously saying those horrible, horrible things and doing what that would do to someone's emotional state. It's evil.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01] It is.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02] Amen. Amen. You guys are wonderful. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for getting kicked out of the library with us and standing in the cold. And I apologize for that. But seriously, yeah, you are you're lovely people. It's been an honor to kind of get to meet you. And, you know, for the for the second time, kind of all the anyways, it's it's just it's lovely. And I appreciate what you guys did and just the care that you took with this. Thank you so much. Like, thank you for your service, like truly. And also thank you for just putting so much care and thought into it.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02] And I know it was a really heavy thing. And I'm glad you've been able to form like friendships that makes like that makes me happy because it's like the whole time I was just watching you guys at this thing. I was like, God, these people are like people were just snatched out of Fort Wayne are getting traumatized. And like, you know, we chose to be there and a lot of people didn't like the families and like yourselves. And it's just I think your story is remarkable. And we just want to thank you. So sorry to ramble. But thank you.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00] And we feel that way about you guys, too. I mean, it's it's not easy to make someone that's afraid to say things but feels like it's right to feel comfortable to in a world where you feel like you can't trust anyone. And. You guys are reporting the truth and it's not easy. It might not be the popular thing. I'm sure it's not. So we likewise appreciate you guys, too.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02] That means the world. That really does. Thank you. I just want to say thank you so much to Mia and to juror number one for sharing their insights and time with us. They're wonderful people to talk to. Follow Mia on TikTok at it's Mia Cake. That is I T S M I A C A K E. I think she's got a really fun account. And we wish these jurors the best of luck in all their endeavors, along with the rest of the members of the Delphi jury.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_04] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_04] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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