The Delphi Murders: First Person: Major Pat Cicero: Part One

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[00:01:45] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[00:01:51] Pat Cicero was one of the most compelling witnesses in the Delphi murders case.

[00:01:56] A major with the Laporte County Sheriff's Office, he testified at both the three-day hearings over the summer and at the trial itself this past fall.

[00:02:04] In today's episodes, we will be hearing from him once again.

[00:02:07] Major Cicero's contribution to the Delphi case centered around bloodstain pattern analysis and crime scene reconstruction.

[00:02:14] In court, he spoke about the evidence at the brutal crime scene and what it indicated happened to 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams at the hands of Richard Allen on February 13th, 2017.

[00:02:29] Delivered in a calm, professional, and respectful manner, Major Cicero's testimony brought many in the courtroom to tears.

[00:02:35] The major has extensive crime scene investigation experience.

[00:02:39] The state of Indiana certified him as a crime scene investigator back in 2004.

[00:02:44] He is a forensic expert with bloodstain pattern analysis.

[00:02:48] Now, he even trains new crime scene investigators in crime scene management and investigative approaches.

[00:02:54] He is an adjunct instructor at the University of Tennessee's National Forensic Academy.

[00:02:58] In the Delphi case, he received the work done by Indiana State Police crime scene investigators,

[00:03:04] all the photographs and reports documenting the scene,

[00:03:07] and then even conducted some experiments to look at the bloodstain patterns present there.

[00:03:12] Now, we would be remiss not to give some context.

[00:03:15] Bloodstain pattern analysis has come under scrutiny since the 2009 report from the National Academy of Sciences

[00:03:21] sent shockwaves throughout the forensics world.

[00:03:23] In some cases, critics have pointed out that bloodstain pattern analysts have come to entirely different conclusions in cases,

[00:03:30] adding to the controversy.

[00:03:31] That being said, in the Delphi case, there was no such battle of the experts in that regard.

[00:03:36] The defense did not do much by way of countering Major Cicero.

[00:03:40] They certainly put out a lot of conjecture about the crime scene in a way that contradicted his findings,

[00:03:45] but they called no forensics experts to back up their often astounding assertions.

[00:03:49] For his part, Major Cicero noted that the 2009 report and the controversies around forensics

[00:03:55] have pushed professionals in the field to improve.

[00:03:59] He stressed to us the importance of being open-minded and methodical in one's approach to crime scene reconstruction.

[00:04:06] Another important note, unlike many, many trial experts,

[00:04:10] Major Cicero takes no payment for his work at trials.

[00:04:13] This is just a part of his public service.

[00:04:15] Today, we will hear about Major Cicero's career,

[00:04:18] his work at the University of Tennessee's so-called body farm,

[00:04:21] and some memorable cases he has worked on.

[00:04:24] Now that the gag order is lifted,

[00:04:26] Major Cicero and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case.

[00:04:31] This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with the Major.

[00:04:35] They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well.

[00:04:39] These episodes are part of our first-person interview series.

[00:04:42] We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible

[00:04:48] in the coming weeks and months.

[00:04:49] If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking with us,

[00:04:53] please send us an email at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:04:57] This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders.

[00:05:01] For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case.

[00:05:07] That all changes now.

[00:05:09] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:05:11] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:05:14] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:15] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:05:22] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:23] And this is the Delphi murders. First person. Major Pat Cicero. Part one.

[00:06:13] To start out with, can you tell us a bit about your background,

[00:06:17] maybe even your life a little bit before you joined law enforcement?

[00:06:20] Sure. I'm originally from the Chicago, Chicagoland area.

[00:06:25] I was born and raised there all throughout my adolescence and into high school.

[00:06:29] I believe it was 86, 87, that my parents decided to, from Cook County, Illinois to Lake County, Indiana.

[00:06:40] And I finished my high schooling in Crown Point.

[00:06:45] Soon after finishing high school, I enlisted in the United States Army.

[00:06:49] I was there for three years.

[00:06:51] Was honorably discharged in 1994, I believe.

[00:06:57] Immediately after I came home, I went straight to Vincennes University,

[00:07:02] where I obtained my associate's degree in law enforcement.

[00:07:05] And I highly commend Vincennes University.

[00:07:09] It was a great, great experience at Vincennes.

[00:07:13] And I think they now are a four-year college.

[00:07:16] Back then, it was just a two-year college.

[00:07:18] Soon after I finished Vincennes University, I enrolled at EDN University in Bloomington.

[00:07:24] Primary reason I went there was to have the law enforcement program at EDN University in Bloomington,

[00:07:32] where a person who's employed with the agency at the Indiana University Police Department

[00:07:38] can attend the law enforcement academy for Indiana.

[00:07:42] So not only are you obtaining your degree, a four-year degree,

[00:07:47] you can also get your academy done, which is beneficial for any potential employers.

[00:07:52] While I was at Indiana University, I met my wife.

[00:07:55] Her name is Jennifer.

[00:07:56] She's wonderful.

[00:07:57] And we were married in 1998.

[00:08:02] And we both graduated from IU.

[00:08:05] And we moved north to South Bend, where Jennifer, who was also a police officer at Indiana University,

[00:08:14] she became a dispatcher for the South Bend Police Department.

[00:08:17] And I was eventually hired by the Amtrak Police Department in Chicago.

[00:08:23] So I was a railroad officer in the Chicago district for a couple of years.

[00:08:28] The problem with working in Chicago is I was living in South Bend and commuting every day.

[00:08:32] So that was difficult.

[00:08:33] During that approximately two-year time that I was at Amtrak in Chicago,

[00:08:39] my wife and I had moved to La Porte, Indiana, so I could be a little bit closer to work.

[00:08:44] And my wife would commute from La Porte to South Bend, and I was from La Porte to Chicago.

[00:08:50] That was interesting, working in Chicago as an officer, even in the railroad part of it.

[00:08:55] And I had enough of working in Chicago as an officer because it's not what I envisioned.

[00:08:59] Sometimes very difficult.

[00:09:01] What made it difficult?

[00:09:02] The individuals you had to police were difficult.

[00:09:07] And it was one of those types of jobs where, you know, it's a nontraditional law enforcement,

[00:09:14] just like Indiana University was nontraditional college.

[00:09:17] But the way you had to police was a little bit tougher.

[00:09:21] The professionalism and complexities of university policing, it doesn't apply with the railroad police in Chicago.

[00:09:28] And I said, you know, I want to do traditional policing.

[00:09:31] And I was eventually hired with the La Porte County Sheriff's Office, and that was in year 2000.

[00:09:37] And I had been there ever since.

[00:09:40] But along the way, and most importantly, my wife and I developed a life in La Porte County, Indiana.

[00:09:46] And we have three wonderful, wonderful children.

[00:09:50] The three of them are just fantastic.

[00:09:52] One's 22 working for the railroad, and one's in college at the University of Indianapolis.

[00:10:00] And one is going, well, she's still a junior.

[00:10:03] She'll be senior next year in the local high school here.

[00:10:06] So Porte County has been wonderful.

[00:10:08] That's my, that's basically my background leading into my tenure with the Porte County Sheriff's Office.

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[00:14:00] Absolutely.

[00:14:01] Can you tell us a bit about the sort of specialty

[00:14:05] you've developed over time in terms of crime scenes

[00:14:09] and how you came to develop that expertise in that subject?

[00:14:13] Sure.

[00:14:13] When I was hired here at the Port County Sheriff's Office in 2000,

[00:14:19] you know, I began as patrol officer like it's normal.

[00:14:22] But after, I think it was about a year and 10 months,

[00:14:24] I was promoted to a detective

[00:14:26] because I had an investigative background

[00:14:28] with the Amtrak Railroad.

[00:14:30] I was actually in their detective bureau.

[00:14:32] And the sheriff at the time, Jim Arnold,

[00:14:34] allowed me to become a detective

[00:14:36] after a short period of time with the patrol division.

[00:14:39] And I'm one to give reference respect to the people before me.

[00:14:44] And I want to mention, when I got into the detective bureau,

[00:14:48] I was teamed up with some gentlemen

[00:14:51] that I still work with today.

[00:14:53] But my mentor with crime scene investigation

[00:14:56] was Sergeant Larry Biggs, who's no longer with us.

[00:14:58] And he was mentored by Wayne Kempker, again,

[00:15:02] who's no longer with us.

[00:15:03] And LaPorte County has a pretty good history

[00:15:07] of crime scene investigators

[00:15:08] who did a really, really good job.

[00:15:10] And Larry Biggs was one of them.

[00:15:12] And I can say that Larry Biggs

[00:15:15] was probably one of the reasons

[00:15:16] why I was really passionate

[00:15:19] about crime scene investigations early on as a detective.

[00:15:22] But everything starts out with a mentorship

[00:15:24] on the job, training, but then training.

[00:15:27] I had been very fortunate under all of my sheriffs,

[00:15:31] Sheriff Arnold Olin, our Sheriff Boyd,

[00:15:34] and now the current Sheriff Heake,

[00:15:36] to be allowed to go to various trainings

[00:15:38] throughout my career.

[00:15:39] And it started out with just a basic

[00:15:42] crime scene investigators course

[00:15:43] within the state of Illinois.

[00:15:45] And another crime scene investigators course

[00:15:47] in Indiana, we have a CSI course

[00:15:50] for the investigators in the state of Indiana,

[00:15:54] a statewide course, which is four weeks long.

[00:15:56] And I attended there.

[00:15:58] In those courses, you were introduced

[00:16:01] to the multitude of disciplines

[00:16:03] in crime scene investigation,

[00:16:04] because they are multiple week-long courses.

[00:16:08] And that's where I also met my mentor,

[00:16:11] retired Sergeant Dean Marks.

[00:16:12] And he's my mentor in blood state pattern analysis.

[00:16:15] And he has mentored many people

[00:16:18] throughout the state of Indiana.

[00:16:20] Dean Marks, he'd probably be embarrassed

[00:16:23] me singing his praises.

[00:16:25] Dean Marks has guided me, mentored me,

[00:16:27] and he's with the state,

[00:16:28] and I'm with the local county.

[00:16:30] But again, throughout my,

[00:16:32] I've had over 20 years in the detective bureau.

[00:16:35] I've been allowed to go to so many trainings,

[00:16:38] traveled at taxpayers' expense,

[00:16:40] which I appreciate the taxpayers as well,

[00:16:43] to attend training in blood stamp pattern analysis

[00:16:46] and crime scene reconstruction

[00:16:47] and other facets of crime scene investigations.

[00:16:52] My most noteworthy attendance

[00:16:54] that had some type of training

[00:16:55] was at the National Forensic Academy.

[00:16:58] I attended the academy in 2006,

[00:17:01] and that's a 10-week-long,

[00:17:03] intensive live-in academy

[00:17:05] down in the University of Tennessee.

[00:17:08] So while I was in Knoxville at the time,

[00:17:10] during that 10 weeks,

[00:17:11] it was kind of difficult on the family,

[00:17:14] but we got it done.

[00:17:16] And that led to a very wonderful future for me,

[00:17:22] attending the academy,

[00:17:23] because I also have to recognize another mentor,

[00:17:26] if I will, if that's okay,

[00:17:28] Dr. Neil Haskell,

[00:17:29] who is a forensic entomologist.

[00:17:32] He was also in charge of the St. Joseph's College

[00:17:37] forensic program prior to St. Joseph's

[00:17:40] closing down in Rensselaer, Indiana.

[00:17:44] And forensic entomology has been my passion,

[00:17:47] time since death,

[00:17:48] forensic taphonomy.

[00:17:49] It's been something I've been studying,

[00:17:51] researching,

[00:17:52] collaborating with other scientists.

[00:17:55] And I've been blessed to continue to work

[00:17:58] at the University of Tennessee

[00:18:01] and continue with forensic entomology

[00:18:04] for the crime scene investigator.

[00:18:05] And I want to make sure

[00:18:06] there's a clear distinction here.

[00:18:08] I am not a forensic entomologist.

[00:18:09] I do not have a PhD in forensic entomology.

[00:18:12] My role is,

[00:18:14] as roles for the crime scene investigator,

[00:18:18] is the collection procedures

[00:18:19] and the investigative approach

[00:18:22] to forensic entomological evidence.

[00:18:25] And so that has been so wonderful

[00:18:27] for my career,

[00:18:28] as far as my ability to return to Tennessee.

[00:18:31] And I've been doing this for 18 years now.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:34] So I've been going,

[00:18:35] I'm going to be going on my 19th year

[00:18:37] at the University of Tennessee,

[00:18:39] teaching crime scene investigators

[00:18:40] throughout the entire country

[00:18:42] who come to Tennessee

[00:18:43] to receive the 10 weeks of training.

[00:18:45] And I teach during the anthropology week

[00:18:49] where forensic entomology

[00:18:50] is providing to the students.

[00:18:53] But even during that time

[00:18:54] with forensic entomology,

[00:18:55] I continued with my training

[00:18:57] and working cases

[00:18:59] as an investigator

[00:19:00] for the Park County Sheriff's Office,

[00:19:02] primarily in blood-state

[00:19:05] and power analysis

[00:19:05] and crime scene reconstruction.

[00:19:07] And after two decades,

[00:19:12] prior to even two decades,

[00:19:13] just working for other agencies,

[00:19:16] you know,

[00:19:16] receiving their information,

[00:19:19] their cases,

[00:19:20] asking for assistance.

[00:19:21] I've spent throughout the state of Indiana,

[00:19:24] Illinois,

[00:19:25] one case in Illinois,

[00:19:26] and a case in New Mexico

[00:19:28] that I worked as well.

[00:19:30] To this day,

[00:19:31] I still receive calls,

[00:19:32] you know,

[00:19:33] from students

[00:19:34] at the University of Tennessee,

[00:19:36] you know,

[00:19:36] about entomology,

[00:19:39] helping them

[00:19:40] either do the collection

[00:19:41] or directing them

[00:19:42] to,

[00:19:42] if the forensic entomologist,

[00:19:43] to send their samples to.

[00:19:45] So it's,

[00:19:46] it's been very rewarding.

[00:19:48] Praise my wife

[00:19:49] for her love

[00:19:50] and support,

[00:19:51] patience with me.

[00:19:52] She sometimes may not realize

[00:19:53] how much I appreciate her,

[00:19:55] but I do.

[00:19:55] It's been a very fulfilling career,

[00:19:57] but at the same time,

[00:19:58] at what cost

[00:19:59] because of all the things

[00:20:01] that I've

[00:20:01] helped other agencies with,

[00:20:03] and of course,

[00:20:04] at my agency.

[00:20:06] That's an amazing resume.

[00:20:09] I want to,

[00:20:10] you've had an astounding career.

[00:20:12] You've done a lot of good,

[00:20:13] and so I certainly appreciate that.

[00:20:16] I wanted to ask

[00:20:17] a very broad

[00:20:18] layperson's question.

[00:20:19] You talk about

[00:20:20] bloodstain pattern analysis.

[00:20:22] What can analyzing

[00:20:24] bloodstains tell us

[00:20:26] about a crime scene?

[00:20:28] Well,

[00:20:29] a thorough investigation

[00:20:30] of blood evidence

[00:20:32] could provide one

[00:20:34] with information

[00:20:35] as to what actually occurred,

[00:20:38] what type of weapon

[00:20:39] was used

[00:20:40] in the movement

[00:20:41] of the victim

[00:20:43] and or suspect,

[00:20:44] the proximity

[00:20:46] of a suspect

[00:20:47] to the victim,

[00:20:48] sequencing

[00:20:49] what happened

[00:20:50] at the scene.

[00:20:52] Sometimes we can determine

[00:20:53] the minimum number

[00:20:55] of bludgeonings,

[00:20:57] if you will.

[00:20:58] You may be able

[00:20:59] to tell the weapon.

[00:21:00] We may be able

[00:21:02] to determine

[00:21:03] if the blood

[00:21:04] was in the airway.

[00:21:05] There's just a

[00:21:07] tremendous amount

[00:21:08] of information

[00:21:08] that we can provide

[00:21:10] with a good analysis

[00:21:11] of the bloodstain

[00:21:13] or all the bloodstain

[00:21:14] patterns.

[00:21:15] And that's important

[00:21:16] to note is

[00:21:17] it's bloodstain pattern

[00:21:18] interpretation.

[00:21:19] So,

[00:21:20] we don't just

[00:21:21] analyze single stains

[00:21:23] or just a few stains

[00:21:24] to provide

[00:21:25] a picture

[00:21:26] as to what occurred.

[00:21:28] Bloodstain pattern

[00:21:29] analysis

[00:21:29] is,

[00:21:31] if not,

[00:21:31] is probably

[00:21:32] the most utilized

[00:21:33] discipline

[00:21:34] in the

[00:21:35] crime scene

[00:21:36] reconstruction realm,

[00:21:38] if you will.

[00:21:39] You know,

[00:21:40] when we talk about

[00:21:40] crime scene

[00:21:41] reconstruction,

[00:21:43] if you think

[00:21:44] of a pie,

[00:21:45] bloodstains

[00:21:46] are a good portion

[00:21:48] of that pie,

[00:21:48] but we also have

[00:21:49] shooting reconstruction.

[00:21:50] We have,

[00:21:52] again,

[00:21:52] the realm

[00:21:53] of reconstruction,

[00:21:53] we're talking

[00:21:54] about sequencing,

[00:21:57] chronology,

[00:21:58] superposition,

[00:21:59] lateral continuity,

[00:22:00] all these terms

[00:22:02] that we have

[00:22:03] to focus

[00:22:04] upon

[00:22:05] when determining

[00:22:06] as to what

[00:22:07] happened,

[00:22:07] when it happened,

[00:22:09] the chronology

[00:22:09] or the sequence

[00:22:10] when things

[00:22:11] happened,

[00:22:12] and all in the

[00:22:13] context of a

[00:22:14] crime scene.

[00:22:15] So,

[00:22:17] knowing how

[00:22:18] blood reacts

[00:22:18] to energy

[00:22:20] or force

[00:22:20] provides us

[00:22:22] with a

[00:22:22] basis

[00:22:23] in conjunction

[00:22:25] with context

[00:22:27] to the crime scene

[00:22:28] as to what

[00:22:29] occurred,

[00:22:29] because in the

[00:22:31] realm of

[00:22:31] possibilities,

[00:22:32] especially in

[00:22:32] a court of

[00:22:32] law,

[00:22:33] it seems

[00:22:34] to be infinite

[00:22:35] when you have

[00:22:35] opposing sides

[00:22:37] saying,

[00:22:37] well,

[00:22:37] couldn't this

[00:22:38] happen?

[00:22:38] Couldn't this

[00:22:38] happen?

[00:22:39] In crime scene

[00:22:40] and reconstruction,

[00:22:41] we must

[00:22:43] at least address

[00:22:44] the possibility

[00:22:45] of things,

[00:22:46] whether they're

[00:22:47] apparently unreasonable

[00:22:49] or reasonable,

[00:22:50] but we do in a

[00:22:51] very objective,

[00:22:53] factual way

[00:22:54] as opposed

[00:22:55] to worrying

[00:22:56] about inferences

[00:22:57] will always

[00:22:58] happen,

[00:22:58] conjecture

[00:22:59] will happen,

[00:23:00] but when you

[00:23:02] compare that

[00:23:03] to the

[00:23:04] objectivity

[00:23:05] and factual

[00:23:06] basis

[00:23:06] and applying

[00:23:07] how blood

[00:23:09] reacts or the

[00:23:10] physics of

[00:23:10] things when it

[00:23:12] could have

[00:23:12] happened in

[00:23:13] sequence,

[00:23:14] it does provide

[00:23:15] you with the

[00:23:16] more objective,

[00:23:17] best explanation

[00:23:18] how things had

[00:23:19] occurred.

[00:23:19] I'm curious,

[00:23:21] you mentioned

[00:23:22] the CAM case

[00:23:23] and things

[00:23:23] like that,

[00:23:24] are there

[00:23:25] limits to

[00:23:26] what we can

[00:23:27] learn from

[00:23:27] a crime scene

[00:23:28] or I guess

[00:23:28] common possible

[00:23:29] pitfalls when

[00:23:31] it comes to

[00:23:31] bloodstain pattern

[00:23:32] analysis that

[00:23:33] experts really

[00:23:34] have to try to

[00:23:35] avoid or anything

[00:23:35] like that?

[00:23:36] Yes,

[00:23:37] there's limits.

[00:23:38] We,

[00:23:38] again,

[00:23:39] at some point

[00:23:41] there are

[00:23:42] always going to

[00:23:43] be,

[00:23:43] well,

[00:23:43] I'm not going

[00:23:44] to say always,

[00:23:44] but it's very

[00:23:45] common that

[00:23:46] there are

[00:23:47] mechanisms that

[00:23:48] create blood

[00:23:49] patterns that

[00:23:51] can mimic

[00:23:51] other blood

[00:23:53] patterns,

[00:23:53] okay?

[00:23:54] A good example

[00:23:55] would be,

[00:23:56] we'll refer to

[00:23:57] bloodstains that

[00:23:59] are less than

[00:23:59] a millimeter,

[00:24:00] pairing,

[00:24:02] you know,

[00:24:02] what could have

[00:24:03] created that?

[00:24:03] Well,

[00:24:04] in many instances,

[00:24:05] the majority of

[00:24:06] the time it is,

[00:24:07] something with

[00:24:08] high energy will

[00:24:09] create those very

[00:24:10] small spatters

[00:24:11] or individual

[00:24:12] stains.

[00:24:13] But again,

[00:24:14] we have to look

[00:24:14] at the pattern

[00:24:15] and the context

[00:24:16] of the scene

[00:24:16] to determine

[00:24:17] if a gunshot

[00:24:18] was involved,

[00:24:19] for example.

[00:24:20] However,

[00:24:21] if I took a

[00:24:21] srubhbrush

[00:24:22] and had blood

[00:24:23] on it

[00:24:23] and used my

[00:24:24] thumb to

[00:24:25] go through

[00:24:26] the toothbrush,

[00:24:27] it would also

[00:24:28] create stains

[00:24:28] that are very,

[00:24:29] very small.

[00:24:30] So,

[00:24:31] we have to be

[00:24:32] careful in

[00:24:33] saying what

[00:24:33] it is,

[00:24:35] what it

[00:24:35] exactly is

[00:24:36] without addressing

[00:24:37] context.

[00:24:38] There have been

[00:24:39] several studies

[00:24:40] done,

[00:24:40] you know,

[00:24:41] where they talk

[00:24:42] about error

[00:24:43] and,

[00:24:43] you know,

[00:24:44] people getting

[00:24:44] things wrong

[00:24:45] and yes,

[00:24:45] absolutely.

[00:24:46] There are times

[00:24:47] when people

[00:24:48] do get

[00:24:48] things wrong,

[00:24:48] but if they're

[00:24:49] not using

[00:24:50] the proper

[00:24:51] methodology

[00:24:53] of applying

[00:24:54] the discipline,

[00:24:55] there is no

[00:24:57] error in

[00:24:57] the methodology.

[00:24:58] Okay?

[00:24:59] There's errors

[00:25:00] in people

[00:25:01] taking measurements

[00:25:02] to trying to

[00:25:03] determine the

[00:25:04] angle of

[00:25:04] impacts.

[00:25:05] There's error

[00:25:06] in sequencing

[00:25:07] if you're just

[00:25:08] looking at

[00:25:08] photographs.

[00:25:09] There could be

[00:25:10] error in just

[00:25:11] identifying what

[00:25:12] a pattern is,

[00:25:13] again,

[00:25:14] without having

[00:25:14] any context.

[00:25:15] So,

[00:25:16] as an

[00:25:17] analyst,

[00:25:17] you have to

[00:25:18] address those.

[00:25:19] You mentioned

[00:25:19] Tennessee.

[00:25:20] Is that where

[00:25:20] the famous

[00:25:21] body farm is?

[00:25:23] Yes.

[00:25:23] Are you involved

[00:25:24] with that?

[00:25:25] Yes.

[00:25:25] Can you talk

[00:25:26] about what

[00:25:27] you do there?

[00:25:28] Sure.

[00:25:28] Again,

[00:25:29] primarily

[00:25:29] it's with

[00:25:30] forensic

[00:25:30] etymology.

[00:25:31] So,

[00:25:32] there are

[00:25:32] actually two

[00:25:32] facilities now

[00:25:34] in Tennessee.

[00:25:35] The original

[00:25:35] facility,

[00:25:36] which was

[00:25:36] developed by

[00:25:37] Dr. Bill

[00:25:38] Bass,

[00:25:38] I believe that

[00:25:39] was the late

[00:25:39] 70s,

[00:25:40] early 80s,

[00:25:40] when he

[00:25:41] developed that,

[00:25:42] is in

[00:25:42] Knoxville.

[00:25:44] I believe it's

[00:25:44] now,

[00:25:44] it used to

[00:25:45] be just

[00:25:45] an acre.

[00:25:46] Now,

[00:25:47] I believe it's

[00:25:47] two to

[00:25:47] three acres.

[00:25:49] And,

[00:25:49] again,

[00:25:50] it's been

[00:25:51] there since

[00:25:51] the 80s.

[00:25:52] And,

[00:25:52] that's where

[00:25:52] I originally

[00:25:53] started working

[00:25:55] at the

[00:25:55] research facility.

[00:25:57] At the

[00:25:57] University of

[00:25:58] Tennessee,

[00:25:58] they have

[00:25:58] the Law

[00:25:59] Enforcement

[00:25:59] Innovation

[00:26:00] Center,

[00:26:01] or the

[00:26:01] National

[00:26:02] Forensic

[00:26:02] Academies

[00:26:03] is associated

[00:26:04] with.

[00:26:05] They purchased

[00:26:05] and rehabbed

[00:26:07] a building

[00:26:08] to make

[00:26:09] that the

[00:26:10] new

[00:26:10] National

[00:26:11] Forensic

[00:26:11] Academy.

[00:26:12] And,

[00:26:13] that's in

[00:26:13] Oak Ridge,

[00:26:14] Tennessee.

[00:26:14] And,

[00:26:15] the university

[00:26:16] also basically

[00:26:17] made another

[00:26:18] facility for

[00:26:20] just the

[00:26:21] Law Enforcement

[00:26:22] Innovation

[00:26:23] Center.

[00:26:24] It's on the

[00:26:25] side of a

[00:26:25] mountain way

[00:26:26] from Oak Ridge.

[00:26:28] It's very

[00:26:29] remote,

[00:26:30] above the

[00:26:30] mountain.

[00:26:31] And,

[00:26:31] so now I

[00:26:32] instruct there

[00:26:34] with the

[00:26:34] students.

[00:26:35] So,

[00:26:36] my role,

[00:26:37] again,

[00:26:37] forensic

[00:26:38] entomology

[00:26:38] is to

[00:26:39] lecture.

[00:26:40] We have

[00:26:41] one day

[00:26:41] of lecture,

[00:26:41] and then

[00:26:42] there's two

[00:26:43] days of

[00:26:43] field work

[00:26:44] just in

[00:26:44] forensic

[00:26:44] entomology.

[00:26:45] But,

[00:26:46] the week

[00:26:47] of

[00:26:47] anthropology

[00:26:48] consists

[00:26:48] of

[00:26:50] instruction

[00:26:51] from

[00:26:51] forensic

[00:26:52] anthropologists

[00:26:52] who are

[00:26:53] all

[00:26:53] PhDs

[00:26:54] in

[00:26:55] anthropology

[00:26:56] related

[00:26:57] matters

[00:26:57] such as

[00:26:58] burial

[00:26:58] detection,

[00:27:00] the actual

[00:27:01] exhumation

[00:27:02] of a body

[00:27:02] or the

[00:27:03] removal

[00:27:03] of a

[00:27:03] body

[00:27:04] from

[00:27:04] a

[00:27:04] burial

[00:27:04] site.

[00:27:05] So,

[00:27:05] they're

[00:27:05] taught all

[00:27:06] these

[00:27:06] things.

[00:27:07] They're

[00:27:07] taught about

[00:27:07] bones.

[00:27:08] So,

[00:27:08] there's a lot

[00:27:09] of information

[00:27:10] about the

[00:27:11] skeletal system

[00:27:11] and how that

[00:27:12] could be useful

[00:27:13] for an

[00:27:14] investigation

[00:27:14] and how

[00:27:15] an

[00:27:15] forensic

[00:27:16] entomologist

[00:27:17] is utilized

[00:27:19] in forensics.

[00:27:20] So,

[00:27:21] it's been a

[00:27:22] wonderful

[00:27:22] sub-career,

[00:27:23] if you will,

[00:27:24] going on 19

[00:27:25] years of

[00:27:26] teaching there.

[00:27:27] I was

[00:27:28] wondering,

[00:27:28] so when

[00:27:29] they talk

[00:27:29] about the

[00:27:29] body

[00:27:30] farm,

[00:27:30] and like,

[00:27:31] is this,

[00:27:31] I know this

[00:27:32] is probably

[00:27:32] something,

[00:27:32] a lot of

[00:27:33] people focus

[00:27:33] on,

[00:27:33] but like,

[00:27:34] there's actually

[00:27:35] like a land

[00:27:36] with bodies

[00:27:37] on it that

[00:27:38] are like,

[00:27:39] like,

[00:27:40] studied.

[00:27:40] Is that,

[00:27:41] is that

[00:27:41] correct?

[00:27:42] Yes.

[00:27:42] So,

[00:27:43] the bodies

[00:27:44] are obtained

[00:27:44] through donation

[00:27:45] as people

[00:27:46] donate their

[00:27:47] bodies to

[00:27:47] science,

[00:27:48] and the

[00:27:49] body farm

[00:27:49] is pretty

[00:27:50] well known

[00:27:50] in the

[00:27:50] forensic

[00:27:51] community,

[00:27:51] and there

[00:27:53] are several

[00:27:53] body farms,

[00:27:54] if you will,

[00:27:55] throughout the

[00:27:55] nation now.

[00:27:56] Texas,

[00:27:57] I believe,

[00:27:58] Carolinas,

[00:27:58] there's,

[00:27:59] I believe there's

[00:27:59] one up in

[00:28:00] the even

[00:28:00] northern states

[00:28:01] now,

[00:28:02] but it all

[00:28:03] came originally

[00:28:04] with the one

[00:28:05] that was in

[00:28:06] Tennessee.

[00:28:07] And,

[00:28:07] yeah,

[00:28:08] people,

[00:28:09] there's one

[00:28:10] in Texas

[00:28:10] that's pretty

[00:28:11] popular now

[00:28:12] as well,

[00:28:12] and it's

[00:28:13] important to

[00:28:14] have that

[00:28:14] when we're

[00:28:15] talking about

[00:28:17] decomposition,

[00:28:18] forensic,

[00:28:19] tephonomy,

[00:28:20] the changes

[00:28:21] of the body

[00:28:21] through the

[00:28:22] decompositional

[00:28:23] process,

[00:28:24] and it's

[00:28:25] important

[00:28:25] because I

[00:28:27] think

[00:28:27] time since

[00:28:28] death

[00:28:29] still has

[00:28:30] work,

[00:28:31] or we

[00:28:32] still need

[00:28:32] to work

[00:28:33] on times

[00:28:33] of death,

[00:28:34] but the

[00:28:34] different

[00:28:36] climates

[00:28:37] provide

[00:28:38] different

[00:28:38] information

[00:28:39] with

[00:28:40] forensic

[00:28:40] tephonomy.

[00:28:41] So,

[00:28:41] yes,

[00:28:41] there's

[00:28:42] been times

[00:28:43] where there's

[00:28:43] been over

[00:28:44] 100 bodies

[00:28:45] either buried

[00:28:46] in the ground

[00:28:47] or above

[00:28:47] the ground.

[00:28:49] the

[00:28:49] federal law

[00:28:51] enforcement,

[00:28:51] law enforcement

[00:28:52] has asked

[00:28:52] several

[00:28:53] different times,

[00:28:55] you know,

[00:28:55] can you guys

[00:28:56] help us

[00:28:56] with a case

[00:28:57] that we're

[00:28:57] working on?

[00:28:57] We had

[00:28:58] these conditions,

[00:28:59] can you

[00:28:59] replicate

[00:29:00] these conditions?

[00:29:01] And the

[00:29:02] research facility

[00:29:03] has,

[00:29:04] you know,

[00:29:06] obliged

[00:29:06] the request.

[00:29:08] One quick

[00:29:08] point of

[00:29:09] clarification,

[00:29:10] so forensic

[00:29:10] entomology

[00:29:11] is a study

[00:29:12] of insects

[00:29:13] at a crime

[00:29:14] scene?

[00:29:14] My apologies,

[00:29:15] yes.

[00:29:16] You're fine,

[00:29:16] I just want to

[00:29:16] make sure.

[00:29:17] Yes,

[00:29:17] entomology

[00:29:18] is the

[00:29:19] study

[00:29:19] and the

[00:29:20] process

[00:29:21] of how

[00:29:23] insects

[00:29:24] react

[00:29:25] to death,

[00:29:26] how they

[00:29:26] will behave.

[00:29:28] It's all

[00:29:29] about

[00:29:30] what are

[00:29:31] the first

[00:29:32] insects

[00:29:32] to arrive

[00:29:33] to a body

[00:29:34] and the

[00:29:34] successive

[00:29:35] patterns

[00:29:35] of insects

[00:29:36] and how it

[00:29:37] helps with

[00:29:38] time since

[00:29:39] death

[00:29:39] and location

[00:29:40] as to where

[00:29:41] death may

[00:29:41] have occurred.

[00:29:42] Absolutely,

[00:29:43] and I

[00:29:43] wonder if

[00:29:44] we can unpack

[00:29:45] the time

[00:29:45] since death

[00:29:46] question a

[00:29:46] little bit

[00:29:47] because you

[00:29:47] mentioned

[00:29:48] that there's

[00:29:49] still work

[00:29:49] to be

[00:29:49] done.

[00:29:50] I think

[00:29:50] a lot

[00:29:50] of people

[00:29:51] like myself,

[00:29:52] you watch TV

[00:29:52] shows,

[00:29:53] people are,

[00:29:53] okay,

[00:29:54] this person

[00:29:55] would have

[00:29:55] been dead

[00:29:55] for seven

[00:29:56] hours,

[00:29:56] kind of very

[00:29:57] definitive.

[00:29:58] Can you tell

[00:29:58] us about

[00:29:58] why that's

[00:30:00] really become

[00:30:01] more of a

[00:30:01] fiction and

[00:30:02] why it is

[00:30:02] more in

[00:30:03] flux today?

[00:30:04] Sometimes

[00:30:05] you may see

[00:30:05] in Hollywood

[00:30:06] or TV

[00:30:06] shows,

[00:30:07] they died

[00:30:07] at such

[00:30:08] and such

[00:30:08] the exact

[00:30:09] time,

[00:30:10] which would

[00:30:11] help confirm

[00:30:13] or refute

[00:30:13] any kind

[00:30:14] of alibis

[00:30:15] if you

[00:30:15] have a

[00:30:16] suspect.

[00:30:17] Thompson's

[00:30:18] death is

[00:30:18] really a

[00:30:20] discipline that

[00:30:22] is dependent

[00:30:23] upon the

[00:30:23] actual conditions

[00:30:25] of a crime

[00:30:25] scene.

[00:30:26] When we

[00:30:26] talk about

[00:30:27] studying,

[00:30:28] can we

[00:30:29] actually put

[00:30:30] the exact

[00:30:30] conditions

[00:30:31] in place

[00:30:32] at the

[00:30:33] time in

[00:30:33] which a

[00:30:34] person,

[00:30:35] through

[00:30:35] testing,

[00:30:36] compared to

[00:30:37] the time

[00:30:37] in which

[00:30:38] a person

[00:30:38] actually

[00:30:38] died?

[00:30:39] sometimes

[00:30:40] we do

[00:30:40] have

[00:30:41] information.

[00:30:42] Temperature

[00:30:43] is one

[00:30:44] of the

[00:30:44] biggest

[00:30:44] considerations.

[00:30:45] Do we

[00:30:46] have the

[00:30:46] actual

[00:30:46] temperature,

[00:30:47] humidity?

[00:30:48] Do we

[00:30:48] have the

[00:30:49] amount

[00:30:51] of airflow

[00:30:54] at the

[00:30:55] time of

[00:30:55] death?

[00:30:55] All these

[00:30:56] factors

[00:30:57] come into

[00:30:58] play when

[00:30:58] it comes

[00:30:58] to time

[00:30:59] since

[00:30:59] death.

[00:30:59] And it's

[00:31:00] not just

[00:31:00] with

[00:31:00] entomology.

[00:31:01] It's the

[00:31:02] actual

[00:31:02] process of

[00:31:03] etology

[00:31:04] and

[00:31:05] putrefaction

[00:31:06] that

[00:31:07] affects

[00:31:08] time since

[00:31:08] death

[00:31:09] and how

[00:31:09] the body

[00:31:09] reacts.

[00:31:11] Other

[00:31:11] factors such

[00:31:12] as a

[00:31:13] person's

[00:31:13] BMI,

[00:31:15] a person's

[00:31:15] physical

[00:31:16] activity prior

[00:31:17] to their

[00:31:18] actual

[00:31:19] death,

[00:31:19] a person's

[00:31:20] metabolic

[00:31:21] changes in

[00:31:22] themselves.

[00:31:23] We can

[00:31:23] give it

[00:31:24] a range.

[00:31:25] But of

[00:31:25] course we're

[00:31:26] always striving

[00:31:26] to determine

[00:31:27] exact time

[00:31:29] since death.

[00:31:30] And there's

[00:31:30] so many

[00:31:30] techniques out

[00:31:31] there.

[00:31:31] I mean,

[00:31:32] we know

[00:31:33] about the

[00:31:33] algor

[00:31:33] mortis,

[00:31:34] liver

[00:31:34] mortis,

[00:31:35] rigor

[00:31:35] mortis,

[00:31:36] the chemical

[00:31:37] changes

[00:31:37] in gut

[00:31:39] bacteria,

[00:31:39] enzymes.

[00:31:41] Those are

[00:31:41] studied.

[00:31:43] We use

[00:31:45] vitreous

[00:31:45] humor

[00:31:46] fluid from

[00:31:46] the eyes

[00:31:47] to potentially

[00:31:48] determine

[00:31:49] times since

[00:31:50] death.

[00:31:50] There's

[00:31:51] factors that

[00:31:52] can be

[00:31:52] addressed

[00:31:52] there.

[00:31:53] But there

[00:31:54] are a lot

[00:31:54] of techniques.

[00:31:55] It's very

[00:31:56] accurate,

[00:31:57] but to say

[00:31:58] a pinpoint

[00:31:58] time,

[00:32:00] I don't

[00:32:00] believe we're

[00:32:01] there yet.

[00:32:03] Yeah,

[00:32:03] you talk

[00:32:03] about people

[00:32:03] getting that

[00:32:04] idea through

[00:32:04] Hollywood.

[00:32:05] That just

[00:32:06] makes me

[00:32:06] wonder,

[00:32:06] are there

[00:32:07] other

[00:32:08] misconceptions

[00:32:08] that people

[00:32:09] get about

[00:32:10] your work

[00:32:11] or how

[00:32:11] you do

[00:32:11] it from

[00:32:12] Hollywood

[00:32:12] or television?

[00:32:14] I believe

[00:32:14] so.

[00:32:15] You know,

[00:32:16] when I

[00:32:17] first became

[00:32:18] involved with

[00:32:19] crime scene

[00:32:19] investigations,

[00:32:20] it was just

[00:32:22] prior to the

[00:32:23] CSI craze.

[00:32:25] As a matter of

[00:32:36] to the fact

[00:32:37] of the

[00:32:37] unrealistic

[00:32:38] expectations

[00:32:39] that you

[00:32:40] as jurors

[00:32:41] are going

[00:32:41] to put

[00:32:41] on these

[00:32:42] crime scene

[00:32:42] investigators

[00:32:43] in real

[00:32:43] life because

[00:32:44] of Hollywood.

[00:32:45] It's something

[00:32:46] to that

[00:32:46] effect.

[00:32:47] And I

[00:32:47] believe

[00:32:47] that's a

[00:32:48] very common

[00:32:48] question

[00:32:49] these days

[00:32:49] in court

[00:32:50] of law,

[00:32:51] talking about

[00:32:53] prosecutors'

[00:32:54] concern about

[00:32:54] the CSI

[00:32:55] effect.

[00:32:56] Are you

[00:32:56] guys going

[00:32:57] to consider

[00:32:58] this like

[00:32:59] CSI where

[00:33:00] you're expecting

[00:33:01] all these

[00:33:02] types of

[00:33:02] evidence?

[00:33:04] So there

[00:33:04] is that

[00:33:05] concern.

[00:33:06] But yeah,

[00:33:07] you know,

[00:33:07] my wife,

[00:33:09] God bless her,

[00:33:10] she was a

[00:33:11] fan at some

[00:33:11] time.

[00:33:12] A lot of

[00:33:12] friends were

[00:33:13] fans,

[00:33:13] family members.

[00:33:15] And one

[00:33:16] of the things

[00:33:16] that I

[00:33:17] lectured about

[00:33:18] is have

[00:33:18] any of you

[00:33:19] ever seen

[00:33:20] anybody in

[00:33:21] the Hollywood

[00:33:22] shows,

[00:33:23] whether it's

[00:33:24] New York

[00:33:24] or Las Vegas,

[00:33:26] do about,

[00:33:27] I don't know,

[00:33:28] seven to eight

[00:33:28] hours of

[00:33:29] paperwork?

[00:33:31] And,

[00:33:31] you know,

[00:33:32] the answer

[00:33:32] is,

[00:33:32] no,

[00:33:33] because that's

[00:33:33] not sexy.

[00:33:35] But everybody's

[00:33:36] dressed to

[00:33:38] designer clothing

[00:33:39] and they all

[00:33:39] look good.

[00:33:40] They're all in

[00:33:40] shape,

[00:33:41] not like me.

[00:33:42] They're doing

[00:33:42] the actual

[00:33:43] high-risk

[00:33:43] warrants.

[00:33:44] It's all about

[00:33:45] the show

[00:33:45] itself.

[00:33:46] Now,

[00:33:47] interestingly,

[00:33:48] there were

[00:33:48] some things

[00:33:49] that were

[00:33:50] presented on

[00:33:51] the show

[00:33:52] that were

[00:33:52] actual,

[00:33:53] factual,

[00:33:54] that is.

[00:33:55] And,

[00:33:55] you know,

[00:33:56] it's some

[00:33:57] of the more

[00:33:58] sexy things,

[00:33:59] such as the

[00:34:00] light sources

[00:34:01] and the

[00:34:02] chemicals

[00:34:03] and things

[00:34:04] of that

[00:34:04] nature.

[00:34:05] Yes,

[00:34:05] that is

[00:34:05] utilized.

[00:34:07] But they

[00:34:08] had to do

[00:34:09] something like

[00:34:09] that because

[00:34:10] they do

[00:34:11] receive guidance

[00:34:12] from actual

[00:34:13] crime scene

[00:34:14] investigators.

[00:34:14] doctors,

[00:34:15] but they

[00:34:16] put their

[00:34:17] twist on

[00:34:17] it.

[00:34:17] Such as,

[00:34:19] I saw an

[00:34:20] episode,

[00:34:20] I believe it

[00:34:21] was an

[00:34:21] episode where

[00:34:22] they're pouring

[00:34:23] things into a

[00:34:24] wound.

[00:34:25] I believe it

[00:34:26] was a knife

[00:34:26] wound and it

[00:34:27] came,

[00:34:28] it cast out

[00:34:29] of the knife

[00:34:29] wound.

[00:34:30] It was very

[00:34:31] strange.

[00:34:32] Certain chemical

[00:34:33] techniques that,

[00:34:34] you know,

[00:34:35] there's daylight

[00:34:37] that it's glowing,

[00:34:39] you know,

[00:34:39] it doesn't make

[00:34:40] sense,

[00:34:40] but it's what

[00:34:41] is provided

[00:34:42] in Hollywood.

[00:34:44] Yes.

[00:34:44] It's treated,

[00:34:45] I think,

[00:34:45] a little bit

[00:34:46] more like

[00:34:46] magic than

[00:34:47] science.

[00:34:48] Yes,

[00:34:49] but it's to,

[00:34:49] you know,

[00:34:50] get more

[00:34:50] viewership.

[00:34:51] That's all.

[00:34:52] No one wants

[00:34:53] to see people,

[00:34:53] I mean,

[00:34:54] I think,

[00:34:54] like,

[00:34:54] they do have

[00:34:55] considerations,

[00:34:55] no one wants

[00:34:56] to see the

[00:34:56] paperwork,

[00:34:56] but I think

[00:34:57] anyone who

[00:34:58] ever has

[00:34:59] worked a job

[00:35:00] that's been

[00:35:00] portrayed in

[00:35:01] Hollywood would

[00:35:01] probably tell

[00:35:01] you this a lot

[00:35:02] inaccurate,

[00:35:02] so CSI

[00:35:03] shouldn't be

[00:35:04] looked at as

[00:35:05] if those shows

[00:35:06] are some sort

[00:35:07] of documentary.

[00:35:07] Right.

[00:35:09] I imagine

[00:35:10] this is a bad

[00:35:10] question because

[00:35:11] there's no such

[00:35:11] thing as a

[00:35:12] typical case,

[00:35:13] but could you

[00:35:14] tell us in a

[00:35:15] typical case,

[00:35:15] like,

[00:35:16] when you would

[00:35:16] be called in

[00:35:17] and what your

[00:35:17] process would be

[00:35:18] and what you'd

[00:35:19] be looking for?

[00:35:21] You know,

[00:35:22] at this point

[00:35:23] in my career,

[00:35:24] it's going to

[00:35:24] be something

[00:35:25] serious.

[00:35:26] You know,

[00:35:26] it used to be

[00:35:26] that we responded

[00:35:27] to burglaries

[00:35:28] and things of

[00:35:29] that nature,

[00:35:29] and there's

[00:35:31] far more

[00:35:31] property crimes

[00:35:32] that could

[00:35:34] utilize CSI

[00:35:35] work than,

[00:35:36] you know,

[00:35:37] we're all

[00:35:37] accustomed to

[00:35:38] homicide or

[00:35:39] death-related

[00:35:40] investigations,

[00:35:41] but it goes

[00:35:43] back to

[00:35:43] process of

[00:35:46] application of

[00:35:49] the crime

[00:35:50] scene

[00:35:50] investigator's

[00:35:51] role.

[00:35:52] We have

[00:35:53] methodologies

[00:35:54] that have to

[00:35:56] be done at

[00:35:57] all times,

[00:35:57] such as

[00:35:58] our protocols.

[00:36:01] In Indiana,

[00:36:02] we have a

[00:36:02] defined seven-step

[00:36:03] protocol,

[00:36:05] and one

[00:36:06] of those

[00:36:06] steps is to

[00:36:06] ensure that

[00:36:07] there's safety,

[00:36:08] you know,

[00:36:09] and are we

[00:36:10] legally there?

[00:36:11] We can't just,

[00:36:12] even in a murder

[00:36:12] scene,

[00:36:13] we can't just

[00:36:13] go in without

[00:36:14] a warrant,

[00:36:14] you know.

[00:36:15] We need

[00:36:16] permission from

[00:36:17] the courts,

[00:36:17] but,

[00:36:18] you know,

[00:36:19] there's always

[00:36:20] the same.

[00:36:20] We don't touch

[00:36:21] anything until

[00:36:21] we document it.

[00:36:23] We don't

[00:36:24] collect anything.

[00:36:25] Everything needs

[00:36:26] to be measured.

[00:36:27] When we do

[00:36:27] this process

[00:36:28] over and over

[00:36:29] again,

[00:36:29] it becomes

[00:36:29] second nature.

[00:36:31] All scenes

[00:36:32] need to be

[00:36:33] investigated the

[00:36:33] same way.

[00:36:34] Some scenes

[00:36:35] don't need as

[00:36:36] much effort

[00:36:37] because they're

[00:36:38] simple.

[00:36:38] So it all

[00:36:39] really is

[00:36:40] dependent upon

[00:36:40] the scene

[00:36:41] and the actual

[00:36:42] crime itself.

[00:36:43] Does that make

[00:36:43] sense?

[00:36:44] That makes

[00:36:44] sense.

[00:36:44] It does.

[00:36:46] You know,

[00:36:47] one thing with

[00:36:48] the case we're

[00:36:49] going to talk

[00:36:49] more about

[00:36:49] later,

[00:36:50] that's a

[00:36:51] situation where

[00:36:52] you weren't

[00:36:53] one of the

[00:36:53] initial crime

[00:36:54] scene investigators

[00:36:55] on the case.

[00:36:56] I guess,

[00:36:56] do you need

[00:36:57] to be there

[00:36:58] from the beginning

[00:36:59] to analyze

[00:37:00] something or

[00:37:00] is it possible

[00:37:01] to kind of

[00:37:02] put it together

[00:37:03] based on all

[00:37:04] the things that

[00:37:04] are initially

[00:37:05] sort of

[00:37:05] collected and

[00:37:06] documented?

[00:37:07] Right.

[00:37:08] In many,

[00:37:09] actually most

[00:37:10] of my

[00:37:10] investigations at

[00:37:11] this point

[00:37:12] with blood

[00:37:13] stain pattern

[00:37:13] analysis and

[00:37:14] crime scene

[00:37:14] reconstruction

[00:37:15] are things

[00:37:17] I get after

[00:37:18] the fact and

[00:37:18] we call that

[00:37:20] remote case

[00:37:21] work basically.

[00:37:22] So it's

[00:37:23] imperative as

[00:37:24] an instructor

[00:37:25] and people going

[00:37:26] through crime

[00:37:27] scene investigations

[00:37:28] to understand

[00:37:30] the proper

[00:37:30] procedures or

[00:37:31] protocols of

[00:37:32] evidence,

[00:37:33] documentation,

[00:37:34] collection.

[00:37:35] You know,

[00:37:36] because your

[00:37:36] collection of

[00:37:38] data,

[00:37:39] measurements,

[00:37:40] photographs,

[00:37:41] photographs are

[00:37:41] the most important

[00:37:42] thing,

[00:37:43] need to be

[00:37:43] accurate for

[00:37:44] others to

[00:37:45] view what

[00:37:46] your work

[00:37:46] was.

[00:37:47] And that's

[00:37:47] part of the

[00:37:48] instruction that

[00:37:49] I do with,

[00:37:51] I'm an instructor

[00:37:52] besides the

[00:37:53] forensic

[00:37:53] entomology,

[00:37:54] I'm instructing

[00:37:55] blood state

[00:37:55] pattern analysis.

[00:37:56] And a very

[00:37:58] large portion

[00:37:59] of that is

[00:37:59] teaching these

[00:38:00] investigators how

[00:38:02] to document

[00:38:03] blood state

[00:38:03] patterns in a

[00:38:05] scene.

[00:38:05] So, again,

[00:38:06] most of my

[00:38:07] work is done

[00:38:08] remotely and

[00:38:09] this was the

[00:38:10] same for

[00:38:12] Delphi is I

[00:38:14] relied upon

[00:38:15] the, in this

[00:38:16] case it was

[00:38:17] the Indiana

[00:38:17] State Police

[00:38:17] CSIs who

[00:38:19] did a fantastic

[00:38:20] job doing

[00:38:21] their job in

[00:38:22] order for me

[00:38:22] to do my

[00:38:23] job with the

[00:38:24] blood state

[00:38:24] patterns and

[00:38:25] reconstruction.

[00:38:27] Before we

[00:38:28] really jump

[00:38:28] into Delphi,

[00:38:29] I just wanted

[00:38:29] to ask you,

[00:38:30] it sounds

[00:38:31] like you've

[00:38:31] worked so

[00:38:32] many different

[00:38:32] cases over

[00:38:33] the years,

[00:38:33] so many

[00:38:33] different types

[00:38:34] of cases.

[00:38:35] I'm wondering,

[00:38:36] looking back,

[00:38:37] do any stand

[00:38:38] out in

[00:38:38] particular as

[00:38:39] being particularly

[00:38:39] memorable or

[00:38:40] something that

[00:38:41] really comes

[00:38:41] to mind when

[00:38:42] you're thinking

[00:38:43] about the

[00:38:43] work that

[00:38:43] you do?

[00:38:44] As far as

[00:38:45] blood state

[00:38:46] pattern analysis

[00:38:46] is concerned,

[00:38:48] there have

[00:38:49] been several.

[00:38:49] I remember

[00:38:50] a case I

[00:38:50] worked in

[00:38:51] for Porter

[00:38:52] County that

[00:38:55] initially began

[00:38:56] as a case

[00:38:58] where the

[00:38:59] gentleman,

[00:39:00] the husband,

[00:39:01] I believe,

[00:39:01] had shot

[00:39:03] his wife.

[00:39:04] And the

[00:39:05] Porter County

[00:39:06] Sheriff's Office,

[00:39:06] I believe,

[00:39:07] were the main

[00:39:08] agency involved.

[00:39:12] I was not

[00:39:12] involved with

[00:39:13] that initially

[00:39:13] and it went

[00:39:14] to trial,

[00:39:15] but it came

[00:39:16] upon a

[00:39:17] jury.

[00:39:17] And the

[00:39:18] defense

[00:39:19] attorney at

[00:39:20] the time,

[00:39:21] he made a

[00:39:22] good case.

[00:39:23] One of the

[00:39:24] areas that he

[00:39:25] made a

[00:39:25] pretty good

[00:39:26] case was

[00:39:27] the fact that

[00:39:28] the shooter

[00:39:29] in this case

[00:39:29] was proven

[00:39:32] to be the

[00:39:32] husband,

[00:39:32] didn't have

[00:39:33] any blood

[00:39:34] spatter on

[00:39:34] him.

[00:39:35] Because if

[00:39:36] he shot

[00:39:37] her, he

[00:39:37] should have

[00:39:38] blood spatter

[00:39:38] on him,

[00:39:39] a form of

[00:39:40] would be

[00:39:40] deemed as

[00:39:41] what's called

[00:39:42] back spatter.

[00:39:43] So I

[00:39:43] received a

[00:39:44] call from

[00:39:44] the Porter

[00:39:45] County

[00:39:45] Sheriff's Office

[00:39:46] and the

[00:39:46] prosecutor

[00:39:47] worked with

[00:39:47] them directly.

[00:39:49] And I

[00:39:50] believe with

[00:39:50] that particular

[00:39:51] case, I

[00:39:52] don't think

[00:39:52] forensic testing

[00:39:53] was needed

[00:39:53] because it

[00:39:54] was considered

[00:39:55] a back spatter

[00:39:56] case, which

[00:39:56] I had done

[00:39:57] testing in

[00:39:58] previous cases.

[00:39:59] And we

[00:40:00] know that

[00:40:01] back spatter is

[00:40:02] a result of,

[00:40:03] especially with

[00:40:04] gunshot wounds

[00:40:05] to the head,

[00:40:06] as a result of

[00:40:07] several different

[00:40:07] factors or what

[00:40:08] we theorized

[00:40:09] several different

[00:40:10] factors.

[00:40:12] But we do

[00:40:12] know that

[00:40:13] usually with

[00:40:14] back spatter,

[00:40:15] there's not

[00:40:16] as much as

[00:40:17] was referred

[00:40:18] to as

[00:40:18] forward spatter

[00:40:19] where a

[00:40:19] bullet exits

[00:40:20] the cranium

[00:40:22] area, but

[00:40:23] the back

[00:40:23] spatter doesn't

[00:40:24] travel as

[00:40:25] far.

[00:40:25] It's usually

[00:40:26] fairly small,

[00:40:27] so there

[00:40:28] has to be a

[00:40:28] distance

[00:40:29] determination

[00:40:30] with this.

[00:40:31] But in the

[00:40:32] end, what

[00:40:33] we were able

[00:40:33] to prove was

[00:40:34] this decedent,

[00:40:36] she had very

[00:40:37] thick hair.

[00:40:39] And hair is

[00:40:40] considered an

[00:40:41] intermediate target,

[00:40:42] meaning that

[00:40:43] it would

[00:40:44] basically

[00:40:47] prevent back

[00:40:47] spatter from

[00:40:48] occurring.

[00:40:48] Well, I

[00:40:49] was able to

[00:40:49] show that,

[00:40:50] and sure

[00:40:52] enough, the

[00:40:53] jury found the

[00:40:54] person guilty.

[00:40:55] I think there's

[00:40:55] other factors

[00:40:56] played into that,

[00:40:58] not just back

[00:40:58] spatter.

[00:40:59] That just came

[00:41:00] to my mind.

[00:41:01] I remember

[00:41:03] cases were

[00:41:03] doing forensic

[00:41:05] testing with

[00:41:06] back spatter.

[00:41:07] In the case,

[00:41:08] I just remembered,

[00:41:09] it was determining

[00:41:11] whether a

[00:41:12] person would

[00:41:13] have spatter

[00:41:14] upon them

[00:41:14] if it was a

[00:41:16] suicide versus

[00:41:17] homicide.

[00:41:17] This is very

[00:41:18] common,

[00:41:18] actually.

[00:41:20] Context of

[00:41:21] this particular

[00:41:21] case would

[00:41:23] indicate that

[00:41:24] the person

[00:41:25] who was found

[00:41:26] guilty was

[00:41:27] guilty for

[00:41:28] other reasons.

[00:41:29] But my

[00:41:31] role was to

[00:41:32] determine if

[00:41:33] the gun was

[00:41:33] in the

[00:41:34] decedent's

[00:41:35] hand at

[00:41:36] the time

[00:41:36] as it was

[00:41:37] being alleged

[00:41:38] by the

[00:41:38] defense.

[00:41:38] And this

[00:41:42] is where

[00:41:43] the

[00:41:44] responsibility

[00:41:44] of the

[00:41:45] blood-state

[00:41:45] paralysis

[00:41:47] incorporates

[00:41:47] reconstructive

[00:41:48] models of

[00:41:49] doing testing.

[00:41:50] We have

[00:41:52] a scientific

[00:41:53] approach.

[00:41:54] We identify

[00:41:55] the problem.

[00:41:56] We come up

[00:41:56] with hypotheses.

[00:41:57] We look at

[00:41:59] the data

[00:41:59] from the

[00:42:00] scene and

[00:42:00] what we can

[00:42:01] create as

[00:42:02] far as

[00:42:02] testing is

[00:42:03] concerned.

[00:42:03] What are

[00:42:04] our expectations?

[00:42:05] Of course,

[00:42:06] again,

[00:42:06] I said

[00:42:07] testing already.

[00:42:07] And then

[00:42:09] eventually

[00:42:10] what are

[00:42:10] our

[00:42:10] conclusions?

[00:42:11] And in

[00:42:12] this

[00:42:12] particular

[00:42:12] case,

[00:42:14] the

[00:42:15] question

[00:42:16] was,

[00:42:17] was the

[00:42:18] gun in

[00:42:18] her hand

[00:42:19] at the

[00:42:19] time as

[00:42:20] being

[00:42:20] alleged by

[00:42:21] the

[00:42:21] defense?

[00:42:22] And we

[00:42:23] did a

[00:42:24] series of

[00:42:24] testing with

[00:42:25] my own

[00:42:26] blood and

[00:42:27] shot the

[00:42:28] gun.

[00:42:28] And what

[00:42:29] would we

[00:42:29] expect?

[00:42:30] We wouldn't

[00:42:30] expect to

[00:42:31] see blood

[00:42:31] within the

[00:42:32] palm of

[00:42:33] her hand

[00:42:34] because it's

[00:42:35] wrapped around

[00:42:36] the firearm.

[00:42:37] This is

[00:42:37] common sense,

[00:42:38] but you have

[00:42:39] to test it

[00:42:40] to show that

[00:42:41] it's validity

[00:42:41] in court.

[00:42:42] Well,

[00:42:43] when you

[00:42:43] looked at

[00:42:43] her hand,

[00:42:44] there were

[00:42:44] blood spatters

[00:42:45] within the

[00:42:46] palm of

[00:42:47] her hand.

[00:42:47] There's

[00:42:48] blood spatter

[00:42:48] where we

[00:42:49] expect to

[00:42:50] see on

[00:42:51] her.

[00:42:51] There were

[00:42:51] some other

[00:42:51] factors involved,

[00:42:52] but when we're

[00:42:53] talking about

[00:42:53] blood state

[00:42:53] paranalysis,

[00:42:54] this is the

[00:42:55] testing that

[00:42:55] we do to

[00:42:56] complete this

[00:42:57] to provide

[00:42:58] some type of

[00:42:58] answer for

[00:42:59] the court.

[00:43:00] Yeah,

[00:43:01] it's

[00:43:01] interesting

[00:43:01] because when

[00:43:02] you see a

[00:43:03] witness come

[00:43:04] in and offer

[00:43:04] testimony with

[00:43:05] conclusions,

[00:43:06] maybe you're

[00:43:07] not fully aware

[00:43:08] of all the

[00:43:08] hard work and

[00:43:10] testing that

[00:43:11] went into the

[00:43:12] formulation of

[00:43:12] those conclusions.

[00:43:14] Again,

[00:43:15] I'm sure this

[00:43:15] is difficult to

[00:43:16] answer,

[00:43:16] but how many

[00:43:17] hours of

[00:43:17] testing do

[00:43:18] you have to

[00:43:18] put in to

[00:43:19] reach some

[00:43:19] of these

[00:43:20] conclusions?

[00:43:20] It all

[00:43:21] really depends

[00:43:22] on what the

[00:43:22] actual test

[00:43:23] is.

[00:43:23] That in

[00:43:24] itself was

[00:43:25] at least a

[00:43:26] day of

[00:43:26] physical testing

[00:43:27] because you

[00:43:28] have to

[00:43:28] replicate.

[00:43:28] Replicate.

[00:43:30] Science demands

[00:43:30] it replicate

[00:43:31] it over and

[00:43:32] over again.

[00:43:33] So it was

[00:43:34] making sure we

[00:43:35] have enough

[00:43:35] blood for me.

[00:43:36] That was one

[00:43:36] thing.

[00:43:37] And all the

[00:43:38] testing procedures

[00:43:39] is the right

[00:43:40] location.

[00:43:42] But other

[00:43:43] testing could

[00:43:45] be a lot

[00:43:45] longer depending

[00:43:46] upon what

[00:43:46] you're trying

[00:43:47] to copy,

[00:43:47] especially with

[00:43:48] bludgeoning.

[00:43:49] That's just

[00:43:50] the testing

[00:43:51] part.

[00:43:51] There's also

[00:43:52] putting it

[00:43:53] together and

[00:43:53] typing it up.

[00:43:54] That could be

[00:43:55] a couple

[00:43:55] days in as

[00:43:56] well.

[00:43:56] I remember

[00:43:57] this from

[00:43:58] the Delphi

[00:43:58] trial.

[00:43:58] Do you

[00:43:59] frequently

[00:43:59] use your

[00:44:00] own blood

[00:44:00] to test?

[00:44:01] Is that

[00:44:01] the most

[00:44:02] convenient way

[00:44:02] of doing

[00:44:03] it?

[00:44:03] I think

[00:44:04] to avoid

[00:44:06] the scrutiny

[00:44:06] of animal

[00:44:09] blood,

[00:44:09] which we

[00:44:09] use for

[00:44:10] training,

[00:44:11] I think

[00:44:12] the best

[00:44:12] thing to

[00:44:13] do is

[00:44:13] use human

[00:44:14] blood.

[00:44:15] We could

[00:44:16] potentially

[00:44:16] use expired

[00:44:17] blood.

[00:44:18] We've used

[00:44:19] that in the

[00:44:20] Red Cross

[00:44:21] or one

[00:44:22] of the

[00:44:22] other

[00:44:22] organizations.

[00:44:24] Hospitals may

[00:44:24] have expired

[00:44:25] blood that

[00:44:26] was donated.

[00:44:27] We use

[00:44:27] that for

[00:44:28] training as

[00:44:28] well.

[00:44:30] I think

[00:44:31] it is a

[00:44:32] far better

[00:44:32] use for

[00:44:36] the testing

[00:44:36] to use

[00:44:38] blood that's

[00:44:39] fresh,

[00:44:40] still warm.

[00:44:41] When we

[00:44:42] plan our

[00:44:43] testing out,

[00:44:44] especially with

[00:44:45] the Delphi

[00:44:45] case, I

[00:44:46] utilized my

[00:44:47] own blood.

[00:44:48] It was

[00:44:49] still warm

[00:44:49] at the

[00:44:50] time to

[00:44:51] address any

[00:44:52] kind of

[00:44:52] arguments or

[00:44:54] criticisms of

[00:44:56] how the

[00:44:57] testing

[00:44:57] procedures went.

[00:44:58] I take

[00:45:00] that in

[00:45:00] consideration.

[00:45:01] Ultimately,

[00:45:03] another person

[00:45:05] who I

[00:45:05] really,

[00:45:05] really

[00:45:06] respect and

[00:45:07] has attended

[00:45:08] numerous

[00:45:09] trainings,

[00:45:10] who is an

[00:45:10] expert in

[00:45:11] this area of

[00:45:12] reconstruction

[00:45:12] and blood

[00:45:13] state

[00:45:14] paralysis,

[00:45:14] is Tom

[00:45:15] Bethel.

[00:45:16] Ultimately,

[00:45:17] the goal is

[00:45:19] to tell

[00:45:20] the truth.

[00:45:20] No matter

[00:45:21] if it

[00:45:21] helps

[00:45:22] prosecution

[00:45:23] or helps

[00:45:24] the defense

[00:45:24] or vice

[00:45:25] versa with

[00:45:26] hurting either

[00:45:26] one, it

[00:45:27] is to tell

[00:45:27] the truth.

[00:45:29] And the

[00:45:30] most accurate

[00:45:30] way would

[00:45:31] be get

[00:45:32] more blood

[00:45:32] from the

[00:45:33] decedent.

[00:45:34] Well, that's

[00:45:34] not going

[00:45:34] to happen.

[00:45:35] So to

[00:45:35] use fresh

[00:45:36] blood at

[00:45:36] temperature,

[00:45:37] I think,

[00:45:38] would be

[00:45:38] the most

[00:45:39] advantageous

[00:45:39] way to

[00:45:40] tell the

[00:45:40] truth.

[00:45:41] Thanks very

[00:45:42] much to

[00:45:42] Major

[00:45:42] Cicero for

[00:45:43] taking the

[00:45:44] time to

[00:45:44] speak with

[00:45:44] us.

[00:45:45] We so

[00:45:45] appreciate it.

[00:45:46] Thanks so

[00:45:47] much for

[00:45:47] listening to

[00:45:48] the Murder

[00:45:48] Sheet.

[00:45:49] If you

[00:45:50] have a

[00:45:50] tip concerning

[00:45:51] one of

[00:45:51] the cases

[00:45:52] we cover,

[00:45:52] please email

[00:45:53] us at

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[00:45:55] at

[00:45:56] gmail.com.

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[00:45:59] have actionable

[00:45:59] information about

[00:46:01] an unsolved

[00:46:01] crime, please

[00:46:03] report it to

[00:46:03] the appropriate

[00:46:04] authorities.

[00:46:06] If you're

[00:46:07] interested in

[00:46:08] joining our

[00:46:09] Patreon, that's

[00:46:10] available at

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[00:46:17] to tip us a

[00:46:18] bit of

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[00:46:21] do so

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[00:46:21] www.buymeacoffee.com

[00:46:25] slash

[00:46:26] murdersheet.

[00:46:27] We very

[00:46:28] much appreciate

[00:46:28] any support.

[00:46:30] Special thanks

[00:46:31] to Kevin

[00:46:32] Tyler Greenlee,

[00:46:33] who composed

[00:46:34] the music for

[00:46:34] the Murder

[00:46:34] Sheet, and

[00:46:36] who you can

[00:46:36] find on the

[00:46:37] web at

[00:46:37] kevintg.com.

[00:46:39] If you're

[00:46:41] looking to

[00:46:41] talk with

[00:46:42] other listeners

[00:46:42] about a case

[00:46:43] we've covered,

[00:46:44] you can join

[00:46:45] the Murder

[00:46:45] Sheet discussion

[00:46:46] group on

[00:46:47] Facebook.

[00:46:48] We mostly

[00:46:49] focus our

[00:46:49] time on

[00:46:50] research and

[00:46:50] reporting, so

[00:46:52] we're not on

[00:46:52] social media

[00:46:53] much.

[00:46:54] We do try to

[00:46:55] check our

[00:46:55] email account,

[00:46:56] but we ask

[00:46:57] for patience,

[00:46:58] as we often

[00:46:59] receive a lot

[00:46:59] of messages.

[00:47:00] Thanks again

[00:47:01] for listening.

[00:47:02] Can we talk

[00:47:03] a little bit

[00:47:03] before we go

[00:47:04] about Quince,

[00:47:06] a great new

[00:47:07] sponsor for us?

[00:47:08] I think in one

[00:47:09] of the ads that

[00:47:10] we've already

[00:47:10] done for them,

[00:47:11] we talked about

[00:47:12] the compliments

[00:47:13] I'm getting

[00:47:13] on my jacket.

[00:47:15] I know you're

[00:47:16] a very modest

[00:47:17] woman, but can

[00:47:17] we talk about

[00:47:18] the compliments

[00:47:18] you're getting

[00:47:19] on the Quince

[00:47:20] products you

[00:47:21] wear?

[00:47:21] Yeah, I've

[00:47:22] got two of

[00:47:22] their Mongolian

[00:47:23] cashmere sweaters.

[00:47:24] They're a brand

[00:47:24] that just does

[00:47:25] this sort of

[00:47:26] luxurious

[00:47:27] products, but

[00:47:28] without the

[00:47:29] crazy costs

[00:47:30] really well.

[00:47:31] They give

[00:47:33] you Italian

[00:47:34] leather handbags.

[00:47:35] They do

[00:47:36] European linen

[00:47:37] sheets.

[00:47:38] You have a

[00:47:38] really cool

[00:47:39] suede jacket,

[00:47:40] and I really

[00:47:41] like the way

[00:47:42] I look in

[00:47:42] my sweaters.

[00:47:43] I like the

[00:47:44] way you look

[00:47:44] in your bomber

[00:47:45] jacket.

[00:47:45] It looks

[00:47:46] super cool.

[00:47:46] You've gotten

[00:47:47] a lot of

[00:47:47] compliments when

[00:47:48] you go out

[00:47:48] wearing these

[00:47:49] sweaters.

[00:47:49] I think I

[00:47:50] have, yeah.

[00:47:51] And deservedly

[00:47:51] so.

[00:47:52] Also, I'm one

[00:47:53] of those people

[00:47:53] where my skin

[00:47:54] is very sensitive,

[00:47:56] so when it

[00:47:58] comes to wearing

[00:47:59] sweaters,

[00:47:59] sometimes it's

[00:48:01] too scratchy,

[00:48:02] it really

[00:48:02] bothers me.

[00:48:03] These are so

[00:48:04] soft.

[00:48:05] They're just

[00:48:05] very delicate

[00:48:06] and soft.

[00:48:08] Wearing them

[00:48:08] is lovely

[00:48:09] because they're

[00:48:09] super comfortable.

[00:48:11] It's not one

[00:48:12] of those things

[00:48:12] where you're

[00:48:12] like, you buy

[00:48:13] it and it

[00:48:13] looks great,

[00:48:14] but it doesn't

[00:48:14] feel that great.

[00:48:15] They look

[00:48:15] great.

[00:48:16] They feel

[00:48:16] great.

[00:48:17] But yeah,

[00:48:17] I really love

[00:48:18] them.

[00:48:18] And you got

[00:48:18] your cool jacket.

[00:48:20] I mean,

[00:48:20] that's a little

[00:48:20] bit of a,

[00:48:21] you're the guy

[00:48:22] who wears

[00:48:23] the same thing

[00:48:23] all the time.

[00:48:24] So this was

[00:48:24] a bit of a

[00:48:25] gamble for you,

[00:48:26] a bit of a

[00:48:26] risk.

[00:48:26] You got

[00:48:27] something a bit

[00:48:27] different.

[00:48:27] I do

[00:48:28] wash my

[00:48:28] clothes.

[00:48:29] I know you

[00:48:29] wash your

[00:48:30] clothes,

[00:48:30] but I mean,

[00:48:32] you're filthy.

[00:48:33] You just made

[00:48:33] me sound awful.

[00:48:34] So no,

[00:48:35] I wash my

[00:48:36] clothes.

[00:48:36] But you

[00:48:37] don't really

[00:48:38] experiment with

[00:48:39] fashion that much

[00:48:40] is what I'm

[00:48:40] saying.

[00:48:40] So this is a

[00:48:41] little bit out

[00:48:41] of the norm

[00:48:42] for you,

[00:48:42] but I think

[00:48:43] you really

[00:48:43] like it and

[00:48:43] it looks

[00:48:44] good.

[00:48:45] Thank you.

[00:48:45] Great products,

[00:48:46] incredible prices.

[00:48:47] Absolutely.

[00:48:49] Quince.com.

[00:48:50] There you go.

[00:48:51] So you can

[00:48:51] go to

[00:48:52] quince.com

[00:48:52] slash

[00:48:53] msheet.

[00:48:54] And right

[00:48:54] now they're

[00:48:55] offering 365

[00:48:56] day returns

[00:48:56] plus free

[00:48:57] shipping on

[00:48:58] your order.

[00:48:59] So it's

[00:48:59] quince.com

[00:48:59] slash

[00:49:00] msheet.

[00:49:01] That's

[00:49:01] q-u-i-n-c-e

[00:49:03] dot com

[00:49:04] slash

[00:49:04] m-s-h-e-e-t.

[00:49:07] Before we go,

[00:49:08] we just wanted

[00:49:08] to say another

[00:49:09] few words

[00:49:10] about

[00:49:11] VIA.

[00:49:11] This is

[00:49:12] really a

[00:49:12] wonderful

[00:49:13] product.

[00:49:13] I think

[00:49:13] it's really

[00:49:14] helped both

[00:49:14] of us get

[00:49:14] a lot

[00:49:15] better rest.

[00:49:16] VIA is

[00:49:17] pretty much,

[00:49:17] I guess

[00:49:17] you'd say

[00:49:18] the only

[00:49:18] lifestyle

[00:49:19] hemp

[00:49:19] brand

[00:49:19] out there.

[00:49:20] So what

[00:49:20] does that

[00:49:21] mean?

[00:49:21] It means

[00:49:22] that they're

[00:49:22] all about

[00:49:22] crafting

[00:49:23] different

[00:49:23] products to

[00:49:24] elicit

[00:49:24] different

[00:49:25] moods.

[00:49:25] Kevin and

[00:49:26] I really

[00:49:26] like their

[00:49:27] non-THC

[00:49:28] CBD

[00:49:29] products.

[00:49:30] Specifically,

[00:49:30] Zen really

[00:49:32] helps me

[00:49:32] fall asleep.

[00:49:33] Some Zen

[00:49:33] can really

[00:49:34] just kind of

[00:49:34] help me get

[00:49:35] more into

[00:49:35] that state

[00:49:36] where I

[00:49:36] can relax

[00:49:37] and fall

[00:49:38] asleep

[00:49:38] pretty easily.

[00:49:39] And they've

[00:49:40] been such a

[00:49:40] wonderful

[00:49:41] support to

[00:49:41] us.

[00:49:42] They're a

[00:49:42] longtime

[00:49:42] sponsor.

[00:49:43] We really

[00:49:43] love working

[00:49:44] with them

[00:49:44] and they

[00:49:45] really make

[00:49:45] this show

[00:49:45] possible.

[00:49:46] I'm going

[00:49:46] to say

[00:49:46] this,

[00:49:47] you may

[00:49:48] not realize

[00:49:48] this,

[00:49:49] but when

[00:49:49] you support

[00:49:49] our sponsors,

[00:49:50] you're

[00:49:50] supporting us

[00:49:51] and it

[00:49:52] makes it

[00:49:52] possible for

[00:49:53] us to

[00:49:53] do the

[00:49:54] show.

[00:49:54] So if

[00:49:55] you or

[00:49:55] one of

[00:49:55] your loved

[00:49:56] ones is

[00:49:56] interested in

[00:49:57] trying some

[00:49:57] of this

[00:49:58] stuff,

[00:49:58] you're going

[00:49:59] to get a

[00:49:59] great deal.

[00:49:59] It's very

[00:50:00] high quality,

[00:50:01] high value.

[00:50:02] Anya,

[00:50:03] if I want

[00:50:03] to get this

[00:50:03] discount you

[00:50:04] speak of,

[00:50:05] what do I

[00:50:05] do?

[00:50:06] Okay,

[00:50:07] if you're

[00:50:07] 21 and

[00:50:07] older,

[00:50:08] head to

[00:50:08] viahemp.com

[00:50:09] and use

[00:50:10] the code

[00:50:10] msheet to

[00:50:11] receive 15%

[00:50:12] off.

[00:50:12] And if

[00:50:13] you're new

[00:50:14] to via,

[00:50:14] get a free

[00:50:15] gift of your

[00:50:15] choice.

[00:50:16] That's

[00:50:18] viihemp.com

[00:50:19] and use

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[00:50:19] msheet at

[00:50:20] checkout.

[00:50:20] Spell the

[00:50:24] shee.

[00:50:24] And after

[00:50:25] you purchase,

[00:50:25] they're going

[00:50:26] to ask you,

[00:50:26] hey,

[00:50:26] where did

[00:50:27] you hear

[00:50:27] about us?

[00:50:28] Say the

[00:50:28] murder shee

[00:50:29] because then

[00:50:29] it lets them

[00:50:30] know that

[00:50:30] our ads

[00:50:31] are effective

[00:50:32] and it

[00:50:33] really helps

[00:50:33] us out.

[00:50:35] Before we

[00:50:36] wrap up

[00:50:36] this episode,

[00:50:37] can we

[00:50:37] take just

[00:50:38] a moment

[00:50:38] to say

[00:50:39] a few

[00:50:39] more words

[00:50:40] about our

[00:50:41] great new

[00:50:41] sponsor,

[00:50:42] Acorns?

[00:50:42] Yeah,

[00:50:43] thanks so

[00:50:43] much to

[00:50:43] Acorns.

[00:50:44] Remember,

[00:50:44] when you

[00:50:44] support our

[00:50:45] sponsors,

[00:50:45] you're

[00:50:46] supporting

[00:50:46] us and

[00:50:47] our

[00:50:47] sponsors

[00:50:48] make it

[00:50:48] possible

[00:50:48] for us

[00:50:49] to do

[00:50:49] this job.

[00:50:50] So we

[00:50:50] really

[00:50:50] appreciate

[00:50:50] them.

[00:50:51] We love

[00:50:51] our

[00:50:51] sponsors.

[00:50:52] Absolutely.

[00:50:52] Acorns

[00:50:53] is a

[00:50:53] terrific

[00:50:53] investing

[00:50:54] app.

[00:50:55] It's

[00:50:55] the perfect

[00:50:55] thing

[00:50:56] for somebody

[00:50:56] who wants

[00:50:57] to get

[00:50:58] started

[00:50:58] with their

[00:50:59] personal

[00:51:00] finance

[00:51:00] journey.

[00:51:01] It can

[00:51:01] seem

[00:51:01] daunting.

[00:51:02] It is

[00:51:03] daunting.

[00:51:03] I'm so

[00:51:04] not

[00:51:04] financially

[00:51:05] minded.

[00:51:06] For me,

[00:51:06] it's always

[00:51:07] really hard

[00:51:07] to get

[00:51:07] started

[00:51:08] with

[00:51:08] something

[00:51:08] like

[00:51:09] this

[00:51:09] where

[00:51:09] you're

[00:51:09] like,

[00:51:10] what

[00:51:10] am I

[00:51:10] doing?

[00:51:10] But

[00:51:11] Acorns

[00:51:11] sort of

[00:51:12] takes

[00:51:12] the

[00:51:13] guesswork

[00:51:13] out of

[00:51:14] that.

[00:51:14] It gets

[00:51:14] you

[00:51:14] started

[00:51:15] and it

[00:51:16] will

[00:51:17] essentially

[00:51:17] help you

[00:51:18] take

[00:51:18] control

[00:51:19] of your

[00:51:19] financial

[00:51:19] future.

[00:51:20] You

[00:51:20] can get

[00:51:21] set

[00:51:21] up

[00:51:21] pretty

[00:51:21] quickly

[00:51:22] and

[00:51:22] it

[00:51:22] allows

[00:51:23] you

[00:51:23] to

[00:51:23] start

[00:51:23] automatically

[00:51:24] saving

[00:51:24] and

[00:51:24] investing.

[00:51:25] That

[00:51:26] money

[00:51:30] and

[00:51:30] you

[00:51:30] don't

[00:51:31] need

[00:51:31] to

[00:51:31] be

[00:51:31] rich.

[00:51:31] You

[00:51:31] don't

[00:51:32] need

[00:51:32] to

[00:51:32] be

[00:51:32] an

[00:51:32] expert

[00:51:32] to

[00:51:32] do

[00:51:33] this.

[00:51:33] It's

[00:51:34] very

[00:51:34] simple

[00:51:34] and

[00:51:35] you

[00:51:35] can

[00:51:35] start

[00:51:35] with

[00:51:36] only

[00:51:36] $5

[00:51:36] or

[00:52:00] investment.

[00:52:00] Compensation

[00:52:00] provides

[00:52:01] incentive

[00:52:01] to

[00:52:01] positively

[00:52:02] promote

[00:52:02] Acorns.

[00:52:03] Tier

[00:52:03] one

[00:52:03] compensation

[00:52:03] provided.

[00:52:04] Investing

[00:52:05] involved

[00:52:05] risk.

[00:52:06] Acorns

[00:52:06] Advisors

[00:52:06] LLC

[00:52:07] and SEC

[00:52:07] registered

[00:52:08] investment

[00:52:08] advisor.

[00:52:09] View important

[00:52:09] disclosures

[00:52:10] at acorns.com

[00:52:11] slash

[00:52:11] msheet.