The Delphi Murders: Odinism Is Out

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[00:02:39] children. So today we're going to talk about a huge update in the Delphi murder's case. This is of

[00:02:45] course, is the case against Richard Allen, a man accused of murdering teenagers, Liberty German,

[00:02:51] an Abigail Williams in the city of Delphi Indiana all the way back in 2017. He's currently facing

[00:02:57] child as now scheduled for October at this moment. Well, one thing about this case is that Allen's

[00:03:05] defense team Andrew Baldwin, Bradley Rosie and at this point Jennifer O. J. Constructed this

[00:03:15] theory that they wanted to present to a jury that third party alternate suspects actually committed

[00:03:23] the crime and those men were alleged odinists who sacrificed the two girls in the woods.

[00:03:31] It's part of some ritual. Well, we just got a ruling about whether or not that is going to be

[00:03:38] allowed into trial and we're going to talk about that. My name is Ania Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:44] And I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney. And this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast

[00:03:49] focused on original reported interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

[00:03:56] And this is the Delphi murders. Odinism is out. It's interesting to me, Ania, first of all,

[00:04:48] that this ruling comes out here in September because I believe it was just September a year ago

[00:04:54] that we first officially heard of Odinism in this case in the Frank's memo. Was that a year ago or

[00:05:02] a year ago? And it almost feels at this point like that was just a year long detour.

[00:05:08] So the judge has ruled that there was not enough of a connection between Odinism and this crime

[00:05:18] in order to justify Odinism being included in the trial. And frankly, this is not the least bit surprising

[00:05:28] to any of us who were in the courtroom and Carol County last month. Is it?

[00:05:36] And not feeding highly partisan nonsense to our audiences. Let's just be clear. I'm sure some

[00:05:42] people will do the surprise Pikachu face at this, but I think anyone who was open-minded

[00:05:49] but not necessarily willing to, you know, I think this is not surprising. This is perhaps the

[00:05:54] least surprising development to come out of this case. In a while, we've been predicting this.

[00:05:59] Others have been predicting this. People behind the scenes have been predicting this

[00:06:03] who don't know the case but who just like follow it. This is not surprising at all.

[00:06:11] And again, I think we made this point when we covered the hearings. I'll make it again now

[00:06:16] to me, it boiled down to the defense put on the stand some investigators who worked very hard

[00:06:23] on this Odinism theory. They believed in the Odinism theory. The defense puts them on the stand.

[00:06:31] Prosecutor Nick McLeanland asked them, where you ever able to establish that your Odinism suspects

[00:06:39] were in the city of Delphi on the day of the murders and these investigators had to say no.

[00:06:48] And that to me was the death note right there because if you can't even establish that your

[00:06:53] third party suspect was even in the city where the crime happened, on the day the crime happened,

[00:07:00] then you really have nothing to just have speculation and rumor. Yeah, which is what seemed

[00:07:07] to be most of what they had, some hear say thrown in their frigate measure. And then someone

[00:07:12] I believe it was you said that a trial is not like a cold porter song anything goes. There are rules.

[00:07:19] There are rules, you can't just do anything. You can't just get up there and ramp for,

[00:07:24] you know, a month. And frankly, from what we saw with this Odinism theory, that's what they would have

[00:07:30] done. The only thing that shocks me about this situation is that we ended up here. I don't understand.

[00:07:37] I imagine there were exits and turnops for this defense team to take with Odinism,

[00:07:43] where they might have said, listen guys, this is pretty flashy and interesting.

[00:07:46] It would make for a terrific Netflix documentary. But is it going to be something where we can actually

[00:07:52] present without completely falling on our faces in a court of law? That should have been a

[00:07:56] conversation that was had at some point. And it just tells me that either they don't care or

[00:08:03] nobody's telling them like, hey, this is stupid. I don't understand it. I understand that they've

[00:08:08] been put in a really bad position by their own client with Richard Allen confessing so much and

[00:08:14] essentially destroying any possibility he has for winning this. I mean, no,

[00:08:19] maybe there's a sliver of a chance that he has at this point, but he's really harmed himself.

[00:08:25] So I understand, but that doesn't mean that this defense team has to pick like the silliest theory

[00:08:29] and cling to it to this point. But that's what happened. I don't understand it. I think it was

[00:08:36] about idea. And I hope online, I'm seeing a number of defense-minded people. Some of whom also

[00:08:44] don't believe we landed on the move saying, oh, I'm shocked by this. This is blah, blah, blah.

[00:08:49] Curls clutched. I hope that the defense attorneys themselves were not shocked by this.

[00:08:56] Because the only way you could be shocked by this decision is if you are ignorant of the law

[00:09:02] or of the facts of this case. And I would hope that Brad Rosy and Andrew Baldwin

[00:09:08] are familiar enough with the facts of the case, and familiar enough with the law that they had to

[00:09:13] see this coming. I don't know if they did, but it seemed pretty clear when your own investigators

[00:09:21] were a pretty forthier theory. Richard Island didn't do this. It was the odeness when they

[00:09:27] put that forward and they can't even establish that the odeness were in the city. On the day,

[00:09:32] the crimes were committed, you have a problem. Yeah, when people who work for the FBI's

[00:09:39] VAU behavioral analysis unit come back and say, we don't believe this is odonism. We believe

[00:09:44] this is a killer maybe trying to undo what they did by covering up the bodies. They didn't

[00:09:50] really have a lot going for them. People were experts in analyzing this stuff, said no.

[00:09:57] The people who Todd Klick and Kevin Murphy, who seemed very invested in this theory on some level,

[00:10:03] they admitted that they never got there. It's hard to believe that I agree with you.

[00:10:09] I think the framework if we think about this, like no, they weren't surprised by this. This is just

[00:10:14] been some giant press release is comforting because it allows us to think that at the very least

[00:10:20] attorneys are competent and in control. They know they're going to lose, but it's just helpful

[00:10:25] for them to see doubts with the jury pool and sort of try to taint things that way. But I don't

[00:10:31] that is a comforting theory, but I don't know if it's one that we necessarily need to

[00:10:35] cling to at all times. I don't even know how comforting it is because basically the choices

[00:10:39] these defense attorneys have been either lying to themselves or lying to the world.

[00:10:47] Are those the options? Yeah. Or maybe lying if lying to harsh them, like, deceiving them.

[00:10:53] I don't know it's pretty bad. I mean this is the fact that we've gone this long and then

[00:10:58] they have the opportunity to just... I was shocked at that hearing. They weren't able to

[00:11:08] produce anything at all beyond what was originally given to them in this Todd Klick letter.

[00:11:14] It was just rumors speculation gossip and that's just not enough. That's just not enough

[00:11:24] in order to justify getting into a courtroom during a murder trial and dragging the names of

[00:11:30] these other gentlemen into it. Imagine this. Imagine if you're on one of those HGTV shows where they

[00:11:37] revamp your house and they rebuild it and make it look amazing. Imagine if you had kind of a crummy

[00:11:42] house and okay this is a great opportunity to make it look a lot better. And you leave from

[00:11:47] month giving the experts and the contractors and the designers and the real estate agents all this time

[00:11:55] to set it up exactly how's of your dreams that's what it's going to be when you come back.

[00:12:01] And you come back and all they've done is add a single throw pillow. Okay, that's what I feel

[00:12:07] happened at this three day hearing in terms of what Kevin Murphy and Todd Klick investigated and put

[00:12:13] forward. And in terms of what was actually added to it after all these months of harranging about

[00:12:21] this situation, there was nothing new. And it was just like it was shocking because it's like

[00:12:30] I don't understand, you know at least carry the ball forward, right? Yeah, I was surprised.

[00:12:38] But you know, I guess that's part of the course here at this point. So what next? So one option is

[00:12:48] that the defense attorneys can file for an interlocutory appeal. That is they would try to get a

[00:12:56] record to look at judge goals ruling and determine whether or not it was based in law.

[00:13:05] This is not an uncommon thing that happens. It happened recently in another one of Andrew

[00:13:14] Baldwin's cases. He and David Hennessy in the Caden Smith case were able to convince the judge

[00:13:22] throughout some ballistic evidence. The prosecution said we want to take this to an

[00:13:27] interlocutory appeal. They did and the gun and most of the evidence came back in and just a week

[00:13:35] or so ago, Hennessy and Baldwin lost that case. Yeah, Caden Smith is convicted of murdering three men.

[00:13:43] So in theory they could go for this interlocutory appeal with the they asked a hired court to look

[00:13:49] this and I have the court to reverse judge goals decision. I wouldn't be surprised if they did that.

[00:14:00] Maybe that's the thing that makes most sense for them. What do you think? Yeah, I think I mean

[00:14:04] it's fair to I mean they put all this work in with Odinism, the sort of a sunk cost fallacy going on here.

[00:14:09] So why not? I mean why not try to save it or at least save it partially. Maybe they could get some sort of

[00:14:14] opinion where it's like well you can you can't bring the whole thing in but maybe you can talk about

[00:14:19] it. So I mean like they have no reason not to file an interlocutory appeal and I think we shall

[00:14:24] and expect them to I would be surprised if they didn't. And of course if they fire an interlocutory

[00:14:29] appeal, I would expect obviously for the trial to be delayed. Oh yeah. I would I would go out on

[00:14:36] a limb and predict that if a higher court looked at this they would uphold judge goals really because

[00:14:41] it was clearly based in the law. The defense completely failed and their efforts to establish

[00:14:50] a connection between Odinism and this case. They wasted a year of time in this case in my view.

[00:14:56] Yes, and again in a normal case in a normal case you would expect perhaps post interlocutory

[00:15:03] appeal for things like pleadings to be looked at whether that's a deal most likely a deal when

[00:15:09] comes from the defense making some kind of deal with the prosecution about what's going to happen

[00:15:14] in this case. Because again as I've mentioned, Orchard Allen has really harmed his chances at trial

[00:15:20] at this point. A jury is going to hear him you know blah blah blah. Blathering on about how he killed

[00:15:27] these kids and I don't think they're going to put them on the stand to explain that and I think even

[00:15:31] if you have people come out and say well he was having a really hard time in prison that certainly

[00:15:37] doesn't explain how he knew details of the crimes. So I think there's going to be

[00:15:42] that he's going to have a hard time and so when you have a situation like this normally you would expect

[00:15:47] to see a plea deal or at least some attempt to make one and I don't necessarily think that's

[00:15:52] going to happen here for a number of reasons but it's yeah I think I think we get the sense that

[00:16:00] Jadalins family is very much pushing hard for him not to plea from what we heard in court so far.

[00:16:08] I don't necessarily think that Allen agrees but I imagine that when your in his shoes you might just

[00:16:15] go with whatever they're saying so the whole thing is so that it takes them on the feeling of a

[00:16:21] bit of a farce at this point. So that is one option. They can cling to this theory and do the

[00:16:30] another option is that they can instead start focusing on other theories. I believe in the

[00:16:36] three day hearing that was held last month and I guess the month before because it started in July.

[00:16:42] I believe there was a lot of talk there about timelines. They talked a lot about Libby's own

[00:17:00] a complicated theory based on speculation but their theory is that the crime actually happened

[00:17:07] at 430 in the morning and I believe the suggestion from Miss Ojé was that when the girls went down

[00:17:13] the hill they got into a car and were driven somewhere and then the car drives them back to the exact

[00:17:20] same spot and they are murdered there. I guess at 433 in the morning. Yeah. I that seems

[00:17:31] challenging to believe because they're the official searches were called off but certainly there's a

[00:17:38] lot of people in the area looking and trying to find Abbey in Libby. I don't know what the advantage

[00:17:45] for a killer. Oh I kidnapped these girls from this one location. I better return their bodies to

[00:17:51] that exact same location. That frankly seems nonsensical and also I would argue even if

[00:17:59] even if we bend over backwards and say oh maybe they're they're timeline and film theories have

[00:18:04] something to them. The fact is they've spent a year of all of our lives focusing on something

[00:18:10] that completely fizzled out and so I think for a lot of people that makes it harder for them to

[00:18:17] believe the next things the defense offers. They really staked a lot on this and they lost and

[00:18:25] this is one of many things that has really hampered their credibility. They are in a bad spot.

[00:18:30] Confessions are in onism is out. They're in a bad spot. I think it's so important for people to just

[00:18:38] once and for all. I mean if all the things that happened the past did not

[00:18:43] did not cause this for you then I would encourage you know consider anyone who still is sort of

[00:18:50] completely wedding support of these particular defense attorneys to support of Richard Allen

[00:18:56] consider that they're not the same thing. You can be open to Richard Allen's innocence or

[00:19:01] guilt and sort of open-minded without necessarily believing in everything that comes out from

[00:19:08] these defense attorneys. I think at this point it behooves us to really consider those two separate

[00:19:14] interests. I think this is a very good indication because this was a waste of everyone's time.

[00:19:20] So with that said there's some other stuff in the this motion I want to talk about before I do

[00:19:26] I just want to make sure is there anything else I don't want to cut you off if there's anything

[00:19:30] else you want to say about Odinism. You're such a gentleman. No I mean no that was that that was sort of it

[00:19:35] I think I think we covered it. So Odinism being ruled out by the judge is of course the big headline

[00:19:42] but there were a number of other things that the prosecution asked for in this motion in

[00:19:48] women and all of those were granted as well so I think it is worth us taking a few minutes to go

[00:19:55] in back and reviewing this motion for limni it was filed all the way back in late April. So

[00:20:05] I think we would all be forgiven if we'd forgotten some of the details that we just had been focusing

[00:20:10] on the Odinism. So all these things have been granted so in paragraph one the prosecution asked

[00:20:19] that any comments about council for the state the clunky to the personal attack on the attorney

[00:20:24] for the state or comments on the role of the state's attorneys not be permitted and that was

[00:20:30] granted. And I remember this was kind of a funny moment in the hearing do you want to tell it?

[00:20:34] Yeah so this was one thing I mean Rosie got up and was talking about how well you know

[00:20:42] well this is just this is just in the code of conduct for attorneys so we don't even need to

[00:20:47] agree to this like you know like because like that's everyone should be doing that no one should

[00:20:52] be attacking anybody's character and I think they could look feeling got up and said something to

[00:20:58] like like yeah yeah but before you're talking about how I'm the head of this like vast conspiracy

[00:21:02] maybe we should uh maybe we shouldn't just codify that a bit. Yeah he was basically like poking

[00:21:08] fun of them for their kind of conspiracy theorizing which often seems to hint that the state is actually

[00:21:14] an actor within this conspiracy. And also to you remember Rosie did there he said well we don't

[00:21:19] need to make a formal agreement we're just all be gentlemen. For by all accounts that's very similar

[00:21:25] to what happened in a private meeting they had with Judge Gold really on in the case when they said

[00:21:31] well we don't want to try this in the press so let's just all agreed not to do that and they agreed

[00:21:37] to do that and then they start trying it in the press and that's why Judge Gold had to formally

[00:21:41] issue a gag word. Yeah I really don't I don't know why Baldwin or Rosie at this point would

[00:21:48] think that anybody was I think things should be written down and codified I guess is what I'm

[00:21:52] saying. I could understand why McLean wants that and I thought that seemed kind of disingenuous

[00:21:58] from Rosie at this point given everything that we've seen. A paragraph two,

[00:22:04] prosecuted McLean asked to be barred from the trial quote any comment which constitutes the

[00:22:11] personal opinion of defense counsel about any evidence witness outcome or penalty.

[00:22:18] For instance defense counsel cannot vouch for the truthfulness or competency of any of the states

[00:22:24] witnesses including police officers or any of his own witnesses. So if that what tell me of this is right

[00:22:32] what they can if they if Tony ligate is on the stand they can say Tony ligate you made a mistake

[00:22:38] here is mistake X and describe that they can't go and just be like Tony ligate we don't like you

[00:22:46] yeah we think you're in church. Yes and so again this was something that was granted I think back

[00:22:54] to that Frank's motion that again entered our lives about a year ago now God I don't remember

[00:23:01] the exact phrasing but I believe the implication there was that like Todd click was like some kind

[00:23:07] of supercop who he was investigation was unparalleled and we should all bow down an homage to it

[00:23:13] so that also would not be allowed. So it's the negative enough so basically yeah okay.

[00:23:19] Let's not go in there and say someone is super cop let's not go in there and say someone is

[00:23:25] awful let's just look at the evidence let's look at what they did the evidence they came up with

[00:23:30] and can't turn this into like some sort of weird political attack ad you know everything's framed

[00:23:35] a negative light or alternatively like a positive light you have to just go based on what the

[00:23:42] facts are. In paragraph three McLeanland asked for the judge to bar quote in the in

[00:23:49] UNDO or inference that is not supported by admissible evidence and again the judge plan of that today

[00:23:54] so you just can't go in spread rumors basically or implications this is something that you wouldn't

[00:24:00] necessarily have to ask for in most trial situations but again based on some of the

[00:24:06] filings from the defense I think it was a prudent thing to get into writing what do you think?

[00:24:11] Yeah I I think it's understandable why the prosecution at this point feels burned by some of the

[00:24:17] actions by the defense and there's a lot that's been pretty bizarre about the defense is conduct

[00:24:23] in this case and so having it all in writing and codified makes perfect sense so no one's confused.

[00:24:30] paragraph four five pertain to for a deer this is of course a fancy word for jury selection

[00:24:38] prosecutor McLean asked for in the judge granted that it would not be allowed for there to be quote

[00:24:43] in the attempt to indoctrinate the jury during for a deer by exposing the jury to substantive

[00:24:48] issues in the case and also bar any attempt during for a deer to have the jury prejuts the credibility

[00:24:55] of a witness. So don't go in don't go in for our gear and say oh yeah this guy coming up boy

[00:25:04] I wouldn't believe him if I were you yeah I wouldn't buy a car from this guy.

[00:25:09] Jesus.

[00:25:11] paragraph six this is also again asked for by the prosecutor and granted by judge goal

[00:25:21] any hypothetical questions that include facts that are not in evidence. So let me give you an

[00:25:27] example of this if I were to say to a witness assuming the Tony Licket was an act of

[00:25:36] odeness with that explained blah blah blah so no let's not have any hypothetical questions based

[00:25:45] on things that aren't supported by evidence. So McLean asked for that and it was granted.

[00:25:51] Good Lord.

[00:25:55] paragraph seven is the big one this is the one that bars odeness them it also there's a long list of

[00:26:07] things here that prosecutor McLean asked not to be mentioned in the trial and that was granted today.

[00:26:15] You want to read this whole list? Yeah A odonism B cult or ritualistic killing C Brad Holder D Patrick

[00:26:25] Westfall E Johnny Messer F Elvis Fields G Ned Smith H Rod Abrams I Kagan Klein J Jerry Klein K Ron Logan.

[00:26:38] So none of that stuff is going to be included so not just odonism but also the clings and Ron Logan

[00:26:45] I thought that the clean stuff was closer to possibly being admissible. I agree I agree.

[00:26:54] I thought that was a reasonable ask. Yeah but I also think it's reasonable for Gull to

[00:27:01] shoot it down based on the framework of case law. Again I think judge goes real in today was

[00:27:08] well-founded in case law. So I mean like it's one of those things I'm like I would not denigrate

[00:27:13] the defense for asking to bring in the clines or Logan. I thought both of those things are fair.

[00:27:19] They seem to try harder with the clines. Logan kind of got like a few sentences from OJ and then

[00:27:25] that was it but with with the clines Brad Rosie put on a bit of a show they tried and I think

[00:27:32] that was smart to try. I think it's reasonable for it to not be allowed in given the standard.

[00:27:39] Yeah it was very clear in case law and I suppose we didn't mention earlier during the hearings

[00:27:45] they didn't have just fact witnesses like the investigator. They also had their expert witness

[00:27:50] missed on Pearl butter and she did them no good. No not even no yeah so I mean they're losing out on a

[00:28:03] here what does this lead them can they can they still do a third party defense just not name a third

[00:28:09] party I would think so. If they come up with another third party I wouldn't be surprised if

[00:28:18] prosecuted McLean did five on another motion like this. Right maybe not third party but can they

[00:28:23] kind of almost just be like this hypothetical killer might have just done this we don't know what it is

[00:28:29] not our guy. You would say well under our theory the girls were transported back to the crime

[00:28:36] seemed to be murdered at 433 a.m. and obviously Richard Allen couldn't have done that. Yeah I'd really

[00:28:41] love to see whatever like the terrain is that whether that bolsters there I mean forget the whole

[00:28:47] like driving back to the crime scene the middle of the night when there are still likely

[00:28:51] churches out but like just the whole I mean that is rough terrain I know they mentioned at the

[00:28:58] hearing oh there's there's an access road but what does that actually mean when it comes the actual

[00:29:03] crime scene it just seemed it seems like that could be easily debunked and you know maybe it won't

[00:29:10] be but that's what that's the wiff it gave. I agree paragraph eight uh prosecutor McLean and judge

[00:29:18] goal granted that barred from the trial would be any reference to an investigation conducted by Todd

[00:29:25] click along with any reports or investigative materials from Todd click that is not relative.

[00:29:32] So I'll give this goes back to onism. Todd click was one of the investigators for onism.

[00:29:36] If you're barring onism it makes sense to bar Todd click. Yeah I mean that's that's the function

[00:29:43] he and Kevin Murphy served there. Nine bars any reference to geofencing or any test

[00:29:53] away from Kevin herand about geofencing or the findings from any geofencing search that is not relevant.

[00:30:00] All right. Ten bars any reference to any prior bad acts or acts of any witnesses the plan to

[00:30:09] testify at the trial that is not relevant to what the defendant is on trial for. So if in theory

[00:30:19] awnia is a witness at a trial we wouldn't be allowed to bring up awnia's criminal history

[00:30:25] of stealing cereal unless that is relevant. Right unless it's like a case of stolen cereal where

[00:30:32] maybe I have some financial ties to the to the to the person through our he's my cereal fence.

[00:30:38] Wouldn't elaborate world you woven for me.

[00:30:43] paragraph 11 any reference is barred to have the files were labeled that were handed over

[00:30:49] to the defense as part of the information and discovery provided to defense counsel by the state

[00:30:56] that are not relevant. So this gets to the fact that the defense has always said

[00:31:03] they've said that sometimes we're not getting enough discovery other times they say we're getting too

[00:31:09] much discovery and it's labeled in ways that are confusing to us which is simple people. We don't

[00:31:15] understand these labeling symbol country lawyers it must be too deceive us so again this this kind of

[00:31:34] reference to any power points provided by the state is executive briefs involving any person or

[00:31:40] persons that were investigated by law enforcement it's part of the six year investigation

[00:31:45] into the murder of Abigail Williams in liberty German that are not relevant. So basically we know

[00:31:53] for instance that they had such a power point presentation on the clients. What this gets to is that

[00:32:01] during this six year investigation the police pursued a number of leads and they pursued these

[00:32:09] leads hard but not every lead they pursued paned out. Well I would argue that none of them did

[00:32:18] except for Alan so essentially if Tony Klein and and Kagan Klein are out you can't bring in

[00:32:26] a little power point I mean that's what it is. So yeah these power points were just presentations

[00:32:33] and summaries of investigations that ultimately did not lead to the desire to result so

[00:32:41] it's part. So that is a list of all of the stuff that is now borrowed from being included in the

[00:32:50] file. Other judge told does indicate that she will give the defense and opportunity to make an

[00:32:57] offer to prove that means that she will create a record in case the defense wants to create

[00:33:05] such a record for purposes of appeal. Maybe some of these witnesses will offer some sort of

[00:33:10] limited testimony. So what does that outside the presence of the jury? So there'll be in the

[00:33:21] Kevin Murphy Todd click the gang. In theory. Okay they have the option to do that. Yes and then

[00:33:28] that creates a record that an appellate court could in theory look at later. I'm struck by there's

[00:33:38] again there's a person out there who doesn't believe we went to the moon who is closely affiliated

[00:33:44] with the defense on this case. Ms. Cara Wynaki people like her saying oh this decision it's

[00:33:50] so wrong it just means that this trial is now just a practice trial and I just want to push back

[00:33:56] against that hard that is nonsense. It is ridiculous nonsense. This is founded in case wall.

[00:34:03] This is a solid ruling. I believe it would be upheld by the court of appeals. People who are

[00:34:10] affiliated with the defense whether or not they believe we went on the moon. It is in their interest

[00:34:15] to try to make you have doubts about the system and that's what they're trying to do here.

[00:34:23] This is a solid decision. If you sat in that hearing and heard these witnesses say over and over

[00:34:30] no we were not able to establish a connection between these alleged perpetrators in the city of

[00:34:39] they said this over and over again it's difficult to understand how judge goal could have

[00:34:45] come to any other decision. This is a solid decision. This trial if it happens in October

[00:34:52] is not going to be a practice trial. It is going to be a trial which determines the fate of Richard

[00:34:58] Allen once and for all. That said obviously defense attorneys are going to defense attorney

[00:35:04] and there's always going to be appeals but I don't believe those appeals would be very fruitful

[00:35:10] at least based on what we know now. The could always be other stuff that comes up or things that

[00:35:14] happen in trial that would make an appeal inevitable or at least highly likely. At this time

[00:35:21] I think an appeal is possible but a lot of the issues that kind of continuously get brought up is like

[00:35:26] oh this is an automatic appeal. I don't know. I don't I think you know a lot of it goes down to

[00:35:33] well judge goal's really mean because she doesn't agree with us and I judge goal doesn't call us

[00:35:37] ding-dongs. You don't make those kind of arguments if you have stronger arguments to make.

[00:35:42] No you don't. I will agree with you. I think an appeal isn't

[00:35:46] habitable. I think a successful appeal isn't going to happen at least based on what's happened now.

[00:35:52] I agree. I don't think there's anything that's happened that made me think oh my gosh yes absolute

[00:35:57] absolute automatic successful appeal but you know I mean I guess we know and I think when people

[00:36:03] start talking about practice trials and stuff they are really signaling people to expect a conviction.

[00:36:10] Yeah I'll get them next time folks yeah sure you know a signaling folks that can

[00:36:14] is expect a conviction and frankly if you're if your whole like strategy is to lose and then like

[00:36:22] to get a second chance that should be concerning to your client like right? Am I losing my mind?

[00:36:33] It's a poor strategy. I'm like nervous laughing like out of like what that's a poor strategy

[00:36:40] like if you came to me like on you I got a great I got a great idea for you you are going to

[00:36:47] be a good reason and you were going to be thrown a locked away for your serial crimes but don't worry

[00:36:54] maybe we can elicit some sort of mistake a trial or I can cry and wine enough about how mean

[00:37:03] the judges and I can maybe get you a second trial that you can also lose. It's just a practice trial.

[00:37:12] It's like I would think that after 70 years of experience they wouldn't need one. No I

[00:37:17] know that's not what they mean but like it's it's it's it's just I don't know it's bad it's

[00:37:23] shambles shambles. This is not a practice trial this is the real thing this was a solid decision

[00:37:31] I don't know how that we get this overturned and we went to the mood and we did go to the

[00:37:35] zone and frankly you know Gus Grissam didn't die in Apollo 1 so we could all mess around like that.

[00:37:43] That's that's all I'll say. Now I want to do mention I think it is important to mention because

[00:37:49] people can I freak out about this and you know naturally and Delphi if it's kind of

[00:37:54] you go ahead. Yeah we got to do it so there's also another order that came out today

[00:38:00] just says I freaked out a little bit before we looked at it closer. Yes no I mean it's understandable

[00:38:05] I'm not criticizing people for freaking out about it because it's frankly unclear so I mean you'd be right

[00:38:11] to but I think we do need to mention what we think about it so we can at least kind of give our two

[00:38:16] sense. So this is very short filing order from Judge Gull quote defendant appears with attorney's

[00:38:22] Bradley Rosie and Jennifer Oge, state appears by prosecuting attorney Nicholas McCluland and deputy

[00:38:26] prosecuting attorney Stacy Deener closed out as hearing conducted and concluded and quote

[00:38:31] it's dated September 4th 2024 which is today but we believe that there was not a second

[00:38:40] closed hearing this morning that no one ever heard about it never appeared on my case we do not

[00:38:45] believe that we believe that this is actually a reference to the closed hearing that previously

[00:38:50] happened that we all went to and there was supposed to be a public side to it but there wasn't.

[00:38:55] That's what in the reason there's a couple of reasons because I just don't think they could

[00:38:59] slap that together that quickly without you know and appearing anywhere on the record but also

[00:39:05] the attorney configuration to Erosia Noge, you have McCluland and Deener who's missing Baldwin

[00:39:11] and James LaTrelle. So by the amazing coincidence they were the two people who were missing

[00:39:17] at the closed status hearing a couple weeks ago that we know about. Yeah we knew we saw Baldwin

[00:39:22] did not walk into that courtroom and he was seemingly at the Kate and Smith trial and we

[00:39:28] did not see James LaTrelle on the premises either. We just saw Deener and McCluland so it seems

[00:39:35] pretty obvious. Yeah so was there a second hearing that no one knows about where the same two people

[00:39:41] who missed the previous hearing also missed this one or is this just in order referencing the

[00:39:47] same hearing we already knew about where we knew those two people weren't there. Yeah where did you go

[00:39:52] Trell and Baldwin but I think they I think this is just the hearing that we already had so

[00:39:58] you know I think a lot of people saw it. You saw it I saw it at first and we were like whoa hey

[00:40:05] they had another one what gives why didn't you tell us those are my exact words what the heck

[00:40:10] whoa hey what gives that's what I uttered and I think this is just a just part of the record

[00:40:21] but felt so what delayed manner I suppose. Well I think you know the upshot of all this is

[00:40:30] this is definitely getting delayed and I'm certain there's going to be an interlocutoria appeal

[00:40:35] and I'm certain the whole thing is going to just get delayed anyway. I think it's still going

[00:40:39] to go to trial in a normal case you might start looking at please right now but it's not and

[00:40:45] frankly Richard Allen doesn't have much incentive except to avoid the pain of

[00:40:51] going through a trial so if he's determined that he's okay with that and he'd rather

[00:40:56] rather fight it then we're gonna see a trial but it's gonna be delayed. I really really don't

[00:41:03] want it to be delayed so I'm not going to say that I expect that to happen I would not be

[00:41:08] surprised if they fired it filed an interlocutoria appeal I really want this trial to happen

[00:41:14] but I do I do think it's important that we see both sides of the courtroom some really outstanding

[00:41:22] lorering so maybe it's time for the defense to prepare something different.

[00:41:32] Mix it up a bit for once. I would love for it to be over with in October or rather no

[00:41:38] I think that would be great. That would be my strong personal preference because I think this is

[00:41:44] dragged on long enough and I just think most of the sometimes you see it case drag on and you're like

[00:41:50] well that seems hard to deal with but you can understand why it did because there are issues to deal

[00:41:54] with and there's good lorering on both sides that's back and forth. This is not this is not that

[00:42:01] this has just been a stupid side show for a year that just popped like a deflating balloon and

[00:42:11] I think most people just want to be over but it's I just am realistic at this point and I look

[00:42:17] at patterns of behavior and so that's why I say I believe it will be delayed further.

[00:42:22] Hope you're up. I hope I am wrong too.

[00:42:26] Alright well thanks all everyone for listening we'll keep you posted on any further updates on this case.

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