The Delphi Murders: Post-Trial Patreon Live from November 15, 2024

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_05]: So this episode is kind of a bonus episode, isn't it?

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what that means, but sure.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_05]: So we have a Patreon, and one of the things we do for our Patreon is we have live chats a couple of times a month.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And what happens in those chats, people always say, what are these chats like?

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And basically it's Anya and I in front of a computer screen reading and responding to questions in real time from our beloved Patreons.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Patrons, they're patrons.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_05]: But they patronize us through the Patreon service.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Very patronizing.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, they're wonderful people.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very fun group, and it's a fun way to connect.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You also get a couple other perks I should note.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Ad-free episodes as well as early episodes when possible.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And discounted shirts.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And we also have a little book club that we call the Red Sheet.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's fun.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're thinking about ripping off Brett and Alice and doing another feature.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_05]: What's that feature?

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're going to rip off the prosecutors.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, Brett and Alice.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and we're going to, they do something that I think is pretty cool.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They do live recordings.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So people can kind of come check it out and sort of see the process of how episodes get made.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to do something like that where we're going to probably do live recordings.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can see us, I guess, presumably cursing and fumbling over words.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_05]: At least one of us.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll find out which one that is.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_05]: So we hadn't been able to do one of the Patreon lives for a while because of the trial.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So we did an extra one on a couple of days ago, and we thought it would be fun to share it with all of you.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_05]: We've actually gotten a lot of very nice messages from people saying we really loved hearing from you every day during the trial and we miss you.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_05]: So we thought this would be a way for you to hear a little bit more from us.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And you had some things to say about that, did you not?

[00:02:13] You would.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes it sound really dramatic.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we've gotten so much feedback where people say they miss that kind of coverage.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'd love to replicate it in some ways.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, in terms of the Delphi trial, that's a pretty singular event in many respects.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And it would be hard to duplicate a high-profile trial in Indiana where there's limited camera access and sort of we need to go in and tell you what's going on.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think in terms of what I think people might be responding to is that we were a lot less guarded than normal because we were completely sleep-deprived and out of our minds.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what we're going to try to do is just bring a little bit – we're going to, so to speak, like loosen our ties and without being silly or disrespectful, just kind of maybe having more of that style going forward on the show in general for all episodes.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We did chat episodes prior to trial, but we can bring a little bit more of that energy to them that I think people preferred.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one thing we'd be very curious about getting feedback from all of you is what might you want from the show going forward?

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people who are sort of saying we really like that.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: How could we replicate that in terms of what we do going forward?

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking one thing that we might be able to do that might be kind of fun is doing sort of a chat-style recurring episode on at least a weekly basis, maybe more if people like it, and having that be discussing big topics and cases that people care about and maybe doing a couple other segments in that.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But that could be also a way of replicating it.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we want to do that because –

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Whoa.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So we'll leave that in.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's part of the loosening the tie policy here at the Murder Sheet.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: What a disaster.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_05]: But we've been frankly getting a lot of conflicting advice.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_05]: People say, oh, we would love it.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_05]: We would love it dearly if you did an episode every single day.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And then other people say, oh, the worst thing you could do is do an episode every day because you would wear yourselves out and we'd all get tired of you.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_05]: And other people say, oh, I'd love it even if you just talked about going to the grocery store.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And other people say, no, the last thing we want to hear is nonsense about Kevin at a grocery store.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_05]: So we get lots of conflicting advice, but we're sure that you guys can help clarify and help us figure out what we should do.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, literally we're begging you for help because we don't know what to do.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're very – we're just kind of coming back into this and, you know, trying to make the show something worthwhile.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we really – it would mean a lot to us if you could send us an email to murdersheet at gmail.com and just let us know, do you like any of the suggestions that we just made?

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think would be good?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: With what we're doing in a way that people enjoy, then we want to do that and sort of emphasize that.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And we'd like to make some of these changes and give you what you enjoy about the program.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I will say I think this week we have some other Delphi topics we want to discuss.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_05]: We are going to start talking about other cases, obviously, as we've done in the past.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I think this week we'll probably be bringing back the cheat sheet.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I think this week probably a few Delphi episodes, maybe a few other cases.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think – actually, I'll say we do have some episodes we recorded before the trial that we will be releasing at some point where we'll be stiff and awkward the way you remember us.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The way we are in real life.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I would also say that when it comes to Delphi, that's going to be – we're going to continuously cover that because, first of all, there's just a sea of misinformation out there about the trial and what happened and the case in general.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So we sort of see it as our obligation to continue to raise awareness and focus on the facts there.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're also interested in kind of going more into other cases like the Idaho murders, things like that.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So –

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, one thing that occurs to me is there is a sea of information –

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Misinformation.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_05]: There is a sea of misinformation about the Delphi case.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_05]: But in true crime right now, there's a number of other cases which are also plagued by a sea of misinformation.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So certainly one thing we could do is to try to be a corrective to that in other cases, not just Delphi.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I guess to conclude, if you like this kind of episode and you're interested, we have Patreon memberships at a number of different levels starting at $5 a month.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really supportive to us, but it also gets you a lot of fun perks.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a really fun community.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I love hanging out with our patrons and we just – we really enjoy it.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_05]: When we're not in trial, we do these lives two a month.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Although, you know, maybe – we'll see what people want going forward.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But –

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_05]: You're saying that people say, guys, don't do the lives at all.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop it.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Just stop.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_05]: There's every possibility people will listen to this live and it'll be the last episode of the British Heat.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're going to bail.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Bail really fast.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_05]: We talk about Delphi.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_05]: We talk about others.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_05]: What else did we talk about?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't even know.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a problem.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We like talk and then we like black it out and then I don't remember what I said.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But hopefully nothing too bad.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But they're kind of an opportunity for us to talk off the cuff and answer a lot of questions that you might have.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that can be helpful.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, our rule in Patreon is like, you know, you can ask us anything.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We won't always answer it, but we mostly answer it.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly answer it.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say 95% of the – 99 maybe.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_05]: 99% of the time we answer.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_05]: So with all that said, is it time for us to time travel back to a more innocent time of late last week and join Kevin and Anya as they prepare to chat with their Patreon supporters?

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess it is.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: What an odd way of saying that.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a journalist.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm an attorney.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_05]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_05]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Post-trial Patreon live from November 15th, 2024.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We're live as Kevin darts out of the frame.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everybody.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, everybody.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like it's been five years since we saw you all.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you guys so much for coming.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We're really excited about this because we missed doing our Patreon lives during coverage of The Delphi Murders trial.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess to start off with, we want to let you all know that we're probably going to be making this an episode unless things go completely off the rails or we humiliate ourselves or end up –

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which is, you know, I guess 50-50 at this point.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be putting it out as an episode to kind of give people a sense and maybe answer some questions.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, Kim asks, hey, where's the bookshelves?

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We're actually recording in a different room than usual, so no bookshelves for now.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I should just say they all fell down.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It was very dangerous, sort of like our own personal Pompeii.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're all right.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But we'll be restructuring some stuff.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And Kelly wants to know, have we recovered on sleep?

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it turns out if you have a bad sleep schedule, it takes a while to recover from that because I was sort of like, why don't I feel normal now?

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're getting there.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for asking.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so nice to see so many people here.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, thank you all for taking the time on a Friday night to come hang out.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And hi, Andreas.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome from Germany.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, Teresa, Sue, Pam, Christy, Jane, Stephanie, Helen, Maria, Rebecca, Lauren, Kayla, Kristen, Cherie, Kimberly, Sue, Kim, Clinton, another Christy, and then Heidi.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you guys so much.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, seriously, we're really honored to be spending this time with you.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I left off your name, I'm sorry.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I really tried to get everyone.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But hello, Gina.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess what we're going to do.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Sue.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Sue says we both look lovely.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Sue decided to come on here and lie.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Sue, thank you very much.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Very sweet.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And hi, Tracy.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And just let us know what you guys want to talk about.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: If you've never done a Patreon live with us before or never witnessed one of these, essentially, it's just two awkward people sort of rambling for like an hour or so.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can ask us anything.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll answer your questions about the Delphi murders case, trial coverage, lingering questions you may have, or anything else.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Anything else we've covered or anything you think we should cover?

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so just, you know, let us know what you'd like us to talk about.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, this is going to be pretty awkward for like an hour.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Christy asks the best part of trial, the worst part of trial.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good question.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We probably have different answers, right?

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: We probably do.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you go first.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't you go first?

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, the best part were we got to meet a lot of very nice people who really either are, you know, involved in some way or I guess, you know, kind of like interested in the canes.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was really nice, despite some of the kind of bad stuff happening to have those moments of like human interaction where people were.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I sound like a robot talking about this.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed the human interaction, but genuinely I did.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of just lovely people.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And also Delphi itself is a town filled with wonderful, wonderful people.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We got to meet a lot of them.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Delphi is a great place.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was so during the trial, we had to like go and get in line early in the morning.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And then after the trial, we'd have to go and record immediately.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_05]: So they didn't really get a chance to spend time in the city of Delphi other than at court until after the trial.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_05]: And so that last week after the trial, the jury was deliberating.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_05]: We got to go to a lot of great businesses, meet a lot of terrific people.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we went from not eating a lot to eating too much.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's probably my favorite.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say worst part.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_05]: At one point, someone like ran us down in the street to give us cookies.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, that was so nice.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Those ladies, people were just trying to give us food constantly.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It was really sweet, but I was so, I was having a hard time managing my anxiety about everything.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was having trouble eating, but I kept on getting all this wonderful free food.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, oh my gosh.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I have to beat that.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_05]: People running you down to give you super duels.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was really sweet.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So we got to meet a lot of really cool people.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: People from Delphi, people who were coming to view the trial, talked to some really very cool journalists.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Just a lot of people like that.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: For me, the worst part was definitely just seeing some of what happened to Abby and Libby was horrible.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And you feel like you have to bear witness and not look away because you can't afford to.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like, the least we can do is talk about what happened to these girls and sort of how horrific and how serious and what they went through.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I feel like it's cowardly to do anything else.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, it was horrible.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So that really affected me.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I imagine, I mean, if it affected me that much, I imagine for people who knew them, who were in the courtroom, for their families, my heart goes out to them.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was very, it was difficult to see.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_05]: It was disturbing.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we had been leaked some crime scene pictures a little over a year ago.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And they were not as graphic as what was shown in court.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I had to leave that one of the sessions.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Or I guess I just didn't come back.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just kind of got out of there because I just couldn't handle it.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So I felt bad about that.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was, yeah, it was just...

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Did I take care of yourself?

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not really taking care of myself.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like freaking out, which is not what I want to do.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You weren't freaking out.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of feel like I was.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was some pretty bad sides to it as well.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Wendell and Donna and Lauren and Rebecca.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Aw, thank you, Jay.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: What does Jay say?

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay says, you guys are my literal heroes.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Stoked to be a new follower.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They worked in federal law enforcement and was feeling insane for a while regarding the Richard Allen coverage.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay, that means a lot.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, seriously.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've been...

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We sort of have...

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: At times when we were there at the trial felt like we were losing our minds too because I felt like some of the coverage was so incorrect.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_05]: It felt like other people who were reporting on it were watching a different trial.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes!

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't understand that.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And I would be in line and talking to people and I'd say, oh, it's a pretty strong case.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_05]: The prosecution is making.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And they'd be like, no, it's not.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's not.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We'd be like, huh?

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And like, and people can disagree strongly.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not like saying, no, we're the only ones who were right.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't have a different opinion.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But some of what was literally being described to the public was just not happening or like not accurate.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we, at times we would sit down with each other, Jay, and just be like, like, are we totally like wrong?

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we just like losing it?

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are we somehow like in some sort of like reality warped filter?

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it just, it was, it was the weirdest, weirdest thing.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_05]: See, if someone is covering an event, if they cover it well, the people who are taking in that coverage should not be surprised by how that event ends.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think a lot of people who were covering it, they left their audience surprised by what was happening and what the final verdict was.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Sort of like a sports game.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the, this is the, any sport, whatever your favorite sport is, let's go with like, you know, baseball.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If one team's getting a bunch of home runs and then you're in the sixth inning and, you know, you can kind of like, you can say, well, the other team could, I guess, feasibly catch up.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is, this is looking one way, but it's almost as if you're covering that baseball game and sort of saying like, kind of like glossing over the home runs, but saying, oh, well, that other team, they look pretty handsome.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And then suddenly, you know, we get to the end and it's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that team won.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like they were the head the whole time.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And one thing that was interesting was we would occasionally be in line next to other people who were covering the case on various forms of social media.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And I remember one time in particular, we got into a conversation with one of these people and we were talking about a cross-examination that had happened the day before.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And we all agreed Brad and Rosie did not do a very good job of it.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And the defense really wasn't doing that good.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_05]: This person was agreeing with us.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And then we saw later that day, that person went on YouTube.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like Brad Rosie's like Clarence Darrow.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_05]: It's amazing to see.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_05]: And so it feels like some people were making the conscious decision not to tell the truth.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was genuinely upsetting because I felt like we were like, it was just, you're getting drowned out by all of this.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were just like, oh, like, I don't know.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, thank you so much for your question.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's see.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I have to refresh the questions because they get spliced together and I don't want to do the wrong thing.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You picked the next one, Kevin.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Chrissy refers to the podcast, The Viper Pit.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_05]: We've mentioned them before.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_05]: They did an episode about Delphi that I listened to.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_05]: It was fun.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you almost call them the Piper Pit?

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I had to put up with.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll ask, we'll do Pam's question.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Pam has a question, which is why do you think the resource officer was not called to testify?

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always wondering why he did not see Richard Allen as suspicious himself.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So if that's referring to Department of Natural Resources officer Dan Doolin, he was called to testify?

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_05]: He was there.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking for Kevin for assurance to make sure I didn't hallucinate that.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He did testify.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a witness for the prosecution.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a witness for the prosecution.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't really get into why he didn't sort of remind the investigators of sort of who he'd talked to.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Although, this is conjecture.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So please, like, just this is where I was putting it together.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So I could be totally wrong.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: From the testimony, it almost sounded like he was running around and doing a bunch of interviews in the early days of the investigation.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And it may have been one of those things where he genuinely just sort of went on to the next thing.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was not ever top of mind for him again until he was reminded of it.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is, you know, I think when you have like a kind of a ongoing situation like that, we'd all like to think, well, I would definitely remember that.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But it seems like there were a lot of different agencies trying to help at first.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And it may have been a situation where it just, there was so much going on that it never really.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing that's important to note, I, it was always unclear to me, like, who made the mistake about Richard Allen's name, sort of writing down Richard Allen Whiteman rather than Richard Allen.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, he lived on Whiteman Drive at the time.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a clerical error.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like that error came from dispatch.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It did not come from Doolin himself.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, he tried to correct it.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But somehow that error remained.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And it also had the tip shown as cleared, which was an error.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So we got a little more clarity on what, what happened with that issue, which in some ways is the most significant error of the entire investigation.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like I still have some questions.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But I hope that answers yours as best as we can.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that your sense?

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Or was I just writing weird fan fiction?

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_05]: No, that was my sense too.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We do still have a lot of questions about different things that happened.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to try to get answers for them for our book.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And for the show if we can.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you guys have questions that you'd like to see answered, let us know.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And we will try to do what we can.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've gotten some emails and some Patreon messages already.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's something.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Just keep them coming.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if we can add clarity or if we already have clarity, but want to, you know, need to present it in a more in a way that people can understand better.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We would like to do that.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria has a super thoughtful question.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a sense of how the German Patty family and the Williams families are doing?

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know if the families agreed that Richard Allen is the killer or if any sided more with the defense team?

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't feel comfortable speaking for the families.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think it's pretty fair to say that virtually everyone in that courtroom was convinced that Richard Allen killed these girls.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, there were a lot of YouTubers who probably.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_05]: That's why I say virtually everyone.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And to be honest, I mentioned a moment ago someone who's covered the case on YouTube saying one thing to us and then saying something else publicly.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I suspect that a lot of the people covering the case on YouTube also believed that they were guilty.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Another one of these people covering it on YouTube, I said to them, well, what do you expect to happen in this trial?

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you expect a conviction?

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_05]: She said yes.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say this, Maria.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, thank you for asking about the families because I imagine this was incredibly traumatic and horrible for them, even if it did lead to an outcome that had a conviction.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that I think we'll probably be able to know more about how they're feeling once the gag order lifts in December, after December 20th.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're able to kind of come forward and then maybe we will hear, you know, how they feel or, you know, were they convinced and whatnot.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But for the time being, it's just it's not something we necessarily know.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen asks, what do you make of Kathy Allen saying this is far from over denial?

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So Kathy Allen news outlets reported that as she left the courtroom, she made a statement saying something like this is far from over.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I think a lot of it could be that she could be getting bad information from those close to her.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_05]: There could be attorneys or others exaggerating the chances that an appeal would be successful.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one thing that we've heard from sort of the wider, would you say, like Indiana legal community is that there's been a lot of bluster from this defense team for a long time.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Namely, like we're going to get him acquitted.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: The case is going to fall apart.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The charges are going to be dropped.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And if she's in an environment where she's being bombarded with that messaging around an appeal, you can understand that perhaps she's in a situation where she doesn't she's not convinced that her husband is guilty.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And she may just feel that like I just need to, you know, do what these people are suggesting and stick, you know, and it's it's it's a very sad situation.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I know that sort of we've seen kind of people who are basically YouTube content creators sort of also insinuate their way into the Allen family circle in a very visible way in court.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just I hope I really hope that at the end of the day, I mean, it's it's a it's a tragedy all around when you have families who lose somebody, whether that's because they lost somebody because they were murdered or lost somebody because they committed a horrible crime.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just it is a very genuinely sad situation to me.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Tracy said, I can barely manage Costco.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya, you get my respect for managing your anxiety in that setting.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Managing is doing a lot of lifting in that, Tracy.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But thank you very much.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Anya has some issues with anxiety, but she really works hard.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And it is something that causes me to have such respect and admiration for her.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you saw her behind the scenes, you would all love her even more than you do.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was a complete wreck.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I that's very sweet, Kevin.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you, Tracy.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like I deserve that much credit.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just in this case, honestly, sometimes when you're in a negative situation, you sort of don't really have time to be as anxious about things until it explodes in your face in a big way randomly later on.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, I really appreciate that.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It, you know, it's, uh, you know, it's, we feel like in this case, we owed it to all of you and to the families of victims and to the girls and just everyone that we needed to tackle it as with as much gusto as we could.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it, it was like a situation where they'd have been playing on TV, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, everyone can see what's going on.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We can all draw our own conclusions and be informed.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, it became clear early on that, like, that's it.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be a lot of spin and we kind of wanted to cut through that, I guess.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, let's see.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Teresa says at one point, I thought Kevin was saying the worst part was that someone tried to run over them in the street.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that did not happen.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Are you sure?

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: If someone was trying to run over us, it was probably because we were jaywalking.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we probably brought that on ourselves.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_04]: We had a parking ticket.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We did get a parking ticket.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_04]: No, we deserve it.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We deserved it.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not mad about it.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It was my fault.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I own up to that and I'm not going to, you know, I mean.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it was kind of my fault too because Anya parked and she probably thought, well, she's parking illegally.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Isn't this interesting?

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_05]: But I didn't say anything to you.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I should have said, let's move the car.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Whoops.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This is, I remember I got pulled over speeding up to Peru, Indiana for a keg and klein hearing.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So my car mishaps continue, but I definitely deserved that.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Definitely deserved it.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna said, so happy to be here for so many years.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I was worried there'd never be a post trial anything.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And here we are.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna, I think.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_05]: We were all in that boat.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We were all in that boat at some point in this case.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So I completely.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_05]: You didn't even expect the trial to happen in October, did you?

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was one of the kind of like, ah, they're going to put it off.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to continue it.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Frankly, that might have been a, not a bad idea.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So for the defense team.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_05]: The defense team was woefully underprepared for this in my judgment.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen asks, how will IDOC, Indiana Department of Correction, be able to keep Richard Allen safe going forward?

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Solitary forever?

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that allowed?

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: These are good questions.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We'd have to kind of run that by people who are familiar with sort of the policies and procedures there.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're trying to get so many views with people like that to explain.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm concerned he poses a real issue because he often does have suicidal behavior.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_05]: He behaves in extreme ways.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_05]: And also people like him who are convicted of these crimes are not very popular in prison.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: In GenPOP, you know, someone who's a predator who goes after kids is the lowest of the low and is subject to severe injury or even death at the hands of other inmates.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like a conversation about how do we handle someone in that situation where we can kind of ensure that they're safe without necessarily putting them in a situation where their mental health could suffer one way or another is an important one.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would like to kind of keep having that and maybe bring some people in because I think that's a worthy conversation.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: In this case, it certainly raised a lot of questions around that.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Ed says, love you guys.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thanks, Ed.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You did amazing.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you once the coverage was over, I miss you guys.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Ed.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And do you have something to say?

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I have something to say, Ed.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to sound all excited.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, people hate it when you sound excited.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: People like really downbeat on you.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we really enjoyed kind of communicating with you guys nightly as well.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of fun and, you know, I mean, I say fun and then I'm like crying in half the episodes.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You get to listen to a podcast.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people saying they enjoyed it.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_05]: We were a little bit less formal.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_05]: More ourselves.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We were more ourselves.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: The sleep deprivation stripped away a lot of layers of, you know, trying to seem, you know, fancy or whatever.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And so.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Do we normally try to seem fancy?

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of seem like.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I never record without my monocle.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Never do.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that we are interested in, you know, maybe exploring some options about maybe not a nightly show, but maybe a weekly show where it is a longer and a little bit more informal where we can discuss topics.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know if people just more of it.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if people enjoyed it because it was sort of event reporting on a trial or if people enjoyed it more because our personalities were coming out.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know what you think.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you don't do it in the comments because then it'll just, you know, get.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But like, you can email us.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You can message us.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know what you think.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we'd like to kind of keep that vibe going because I think it was nice for us too.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like a lot of people did enjoy that.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess we're just kind of like trying to see.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_05]: We've got a lot of messages from people who say they were disappointed when it stopped.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, it just suddenly cut off.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_05]: People say, oh, I like to listen to you in the mornings when I was getting ready to go to work.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, maybe we do something like live on Patreon or something and then like set a, like, we could figure something out.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think also we'd want to know, like, what topics work?

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it just any topic or would it be preferable to have like trials?

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And is it something where, yeah, like what are people getting out of it?

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we can kind of see how we can incorporate that into our recording schedule because it was nice to kind of be able to kind of almost talk to you guys a lot.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So we enjoyed it too.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of miss it.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So let us know and we can kind of figure that out together on how to move forward.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Christy says, do you guys think we will ever really know about Rich Allen and his life?

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the goal.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Lauren says we probably will in the sentencing hearing.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I imagine we will get a lot more information about Richard Allen at the sentencing hearing.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel we got some information about him at the trial.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_05]: They feel like the defense had some therapists and doctors who painted a pretty interesting picture of him.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was not a flattering picture.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_05]: A person who was so riddled with anxiety and self-doubt that he would like be curled up into a ball very regularly and need his wife to come and make him feel better about himself.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not necessarily like that alone.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not hurting anybody, you're more hurting yourself.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't, you know, I get that.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's the basis of our marriage.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also anxious, depressed, and completely dependent on my spouse.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, it's one of those things I think people can understand some of those issues for sure.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think all of us can also see how maybe those issues could lead someone down a path of extreme resentment.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if they feel dependent on other people, that can...

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Gratitude is not always the kind of the way forward.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes people become resentful.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of was like someone feels that they have no power.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They might seem to exert power over others.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And that could be very bad, obviously.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Missy.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And thanks for joining us.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And, oh, this is Rebecca says the Richard Allen sympathizers would then criticize other people for being biased.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That was bananas.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, you know, at this point, you know, we've told you our opinions on the case.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, we're biased.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We're, you know, I feel like it's one of those things where I'm like...

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're biased.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're biased.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, like, if you told me tomorrow, like, a whole trove of information about why we're wrong and, like, this is...

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He was wrongfully convicted.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I would be like, oh, gosh.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sorry about that.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that would change my opinion.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But these other folks who are doing this, it's like they decided early on that they wanted him to be innocent.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And just no matter what, like, it felt like...

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're blaming other people with much less evidence.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Than there is against Richard Allen.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just ridiculous.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, you know, I'm biased towards the facts and the truth.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: If I see one side presenting that and then the other side just doing this, oh, look over here thing.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Shiny keys.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I felt like they were, like, they brought...

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They were about, like, 10 minutes away from breaking out a laser pointer and, like, trying to, like, distract the jury like they're a bunch of cats, you know?

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was skeptical of the case against Richard Allen in the beginning.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_05]: When the probable cause affidavit was released, I wasn't impressed.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I think you should be skeptical when you first get news of an arrest.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_05]: You should ask a lot of questions.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't sure.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't sure.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I became more, like, maybe, like, okay, well, maybe he did do this earlier than you did.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I went back and forth a few times.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why we never really talked about our opinion, because sometimes it would change sort of randomly.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was sort of like, well, we just don't know.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're just going to go forward.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And ultimately, the question was, rather, the question was not whether or not he did it.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_05]: The question is whether or not the prosecution would be able to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And I got to the stage of thinking he probably did it before I thought they would be able to prove it.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Wendell asks, was the defense expert that talked about the phone and FBI analysts or did I misunderstand that?

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We missed that session.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_05]: That was the one session we missed.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the one session we both missed.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_05]: That was the session where they had seating rules set up throughout the trial.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And we, through those seating rules, we were good for the entire day.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And at, like, 1145, they changed the seating rules for the afternoon.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_05]: So we got out.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen asked, have we found anyone who actually knows Rich Allen personally or professionally?

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Literally anyone who can speak about what type of person he is, et cetera?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We actually interviewed a few.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have episodes on the show.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we talked to people who knew him as a child.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And we also talked to people who knew him through his work at CBS.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And mostly it was the sort of traditional he was very quiet.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Some people talked about how he had a, you know, a sense of humor.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He could be quite funny.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And then one coworker talked about how she felt that he was a bit of a control freak around her.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it caused issues between them.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And but nothing to the point where you'd be concerned beyond that.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Kelly has a Kelly wants the tea.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious about how much of the inside information you received over the years ended up being true and confirmed in trial.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: All of it.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_05]: We have really, really good sources.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And so the information we had and that we reported on was all true.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_05]: And keep in mind, you have to actually listen to the episodes and what we say.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Because sometimes people say, oh, murder sheet said this and we didn't say it.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_05]: But the biggest example I can think of is this red Jeep thing.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_05]: We said Kagan Klein is a known liar.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_05]: But for what it's worth, Kagan Klein, the known liar, is telling people that he was sitting in a red Jeep when someone else was committing the murders.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And we were not saying that's what happened.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We're saying that's what he told police.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And he did tell police that.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And that was confirmed in the hearing over the summer.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Over the summer, there was the three day hearing.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember it was such a surreal moment because I'm not going to lie.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: We have gotten so much flack over that report where people are like, well, these are the people who brought to you the red Jeep and murder sheets.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then suddenly, Rosie, Brad Rosie, defense counsel, is crossing Dave Vito.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm sorry.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He brought he he calls Dave Vito, one of the detectives for the state police, up.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And then suddenly they're talking about the red Jeep.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I feel like I was just like tripping because it was like this thing that had just been this whole like, I don't know, it all came out.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, yes, he did tell police that.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's all documented.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We really we really try to when we're doing original reporting like that, we really try to be careful so that we're not putting anything out there that turns out it's like, you know, sand rather than cement.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We want it to be very concrete.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Like whatever.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very tired.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We want it to be like really solid, I guess is what I'm saying.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a couple, you know, I feel like looking back, I mean, there might be details here or there that we eventually need to go back and correct.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's not been anything where I've been like, oh, my gosh, because if there was, we would go back and also make a big deal of it on present day episode saying, hey, remember when we said that?

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We were wrong.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Because part of journalism, it's you want to be perfect.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can't be perfect, you have to be honest about your mistakes.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if we are ever he's ever brought to our attention, like you guys said this and this was totally wrong.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We are committed to going back and sort of eating as much crow as we need to and saying this was wrong.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We goofed.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what happened.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's how you make a mistake, I believe, in maintaining trust by at least acknowledging that and noting it so people can go forward knowing the real truth.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And we really did try to share as much of that inside information, for lack of a better word, with you all.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_05]: We tried to share as much of that as we could.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, some issues sometimes you have to protect your sources.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And if I, for instance, if you tuned into a podcast and you heard someone say, oh, Kevin Greenlee talks in his sleep and here's the things he says and what an idiot and the way he snores, you'd have to think, well, the only person who would know that would be on him.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And so situations like that where if you if you reveal certain information, you might be giving away your sources.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_05]: We had to close up that.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to meet some reporter in a parking garage to have a discussion about your sleeping habits.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, let's see.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay said, mainstream media picked up on that, too.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I read one that made it sound like for sure the headphone jack was physically manipulated per expert testimony and then said, oh, well, the prosecution disagrees.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay, this has been the nightmare of my life.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, seeing that unfold in real time, it seemed like there was not a lot of skepticism at all.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_06]: From the mainstream media.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: From the mainstream media.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I am such as as long term listeners know, I am such a media nerd.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I love the media.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like from when I was small, I've like worship journalists and journalism.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, it it it, uh, it was disheartening at times to see, uh, some of that break down a little bit because I felt like it would be like, well, an expert said it.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I could come in and call myself an expert about whatever.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't really.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_05]: We're thinking of doing an episode next week.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Why did the media get this wrong?

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the coverage of the case was not.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not everybody.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Some journalists did a great job.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Some journalists were actually sleeping in their cars outside to get in there every day.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And like they deserve credit.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's, we're not saying, oh, the media is, the media is, is like.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_05]: We're very nuanced.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's very nuanced.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like malicious.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more of just sloppiness in my opinion.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're also thinking about doing an episode next week.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_05]: People said a lot of kind words about the episode we did summarizing the evidence.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_05]: We might do an episode like that about Odinism because people seem to have a lot of questions about Odinism and what was claimed by the defense and why it wasn't allowed.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you guys have any suggestions on kind of big picture episodes like that, let us know.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I feel like it, you know, we could all get mad at like, oh, people are spreading misinformation.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But like maybe instead of like, we could just get, we could just correct it or say, hey, here's, here's how we think about this and maybe start more of a conversation.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Tracy has a great question.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think the defense greatly misled Richard Allen's family like they anticipated a not guilty verdict?

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_05]: We can't know for sure.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_05]: But I can certainly tell you that behind the scenes, even in other contexts, we were hearing constantly about how confident the defense was.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_05]: That they were going to blow everybody away with a super case and get some slam bang.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, ma'am acquittal, whatever that is.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not, don't say that.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I regret that.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I regret that.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to release this to the general public, Kevin.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_05]: We did.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_05]: We did.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_05]: We would do events and we would talk to people and then they would say, oh, I know you covered the Delphi case.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the defense team is so confident.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_05]: People who, yeah.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It was really, it was.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_05]: So I have to imagine there's a good chance that they shared those sentiments with.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01]: With the Allen family.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the Allen family.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And that concerns me because I think when I listen, when you hear a lawyer, an expert, someone who's tasked with this, say something like that, it's meaningful.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes, it makes, I mean, that would understandably make a lot of us say, well, okay.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I just, I don't know why anyone would be saying that given the facts of this case.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So it concerns us for sure.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Clinton asks a great question.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: What price of, what, what evidence, what piece of evidence or testimony was the gotcha moment for y'all?

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Or was it a series of witnesses or evidence?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent question.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: For me, it was the series.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It was really like the totality of it where it was just kind of a pile of rocks stacking up.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I kept on being like, well, that alone doesn't really go, that's not enough.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And then like, then there'd be another thing and another thing.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just felt like I was getting buried under it all.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, that's what tipped it for me.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I would agree with that.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_05]: It was like wrapping somebody or binding someone with like thread.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Where the first, or just the first layer of thread.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's not a big deal.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_05]: But eventually as they get wrapped more and more in this, in this thread, they're just completely helpless.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I would, I would say that's, yeah.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Ed says, if everyone is watching the same thing, the reporting should all be similar based on the same facts.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: This has been crazy.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They needed cameras and allow you guys more access.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Agreed with both of those things, Ed.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think especially the cameras.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Because then people at home could kind of make up their minds too.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if people have been able to see this, there would not have been the same level of confusion.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And as Kevin said, like when you're reporting on an event and everyone in your audience is shocked by the outcome, you goofed.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like even if you personally think, well, I don't know if it's enough for me.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: If everyone is listening and saying, I can't believe they did, then somebody goofed because it's not, it's not good.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Cherie says, my Christmas wishes, I do not want to hear any blow by blow by YouTubers every time the new defense of Rich Allen's paperwork is filed.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, that's been, that's definitely been part and parcel of this experience.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Heidi asks, do you think that the attorneys on either side were listening to the coverage of the case after hours?

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And if so, did it affect how they presented their case?

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I can tell you at the very least that the defense attorneys seem to have a great deal of interaction.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_05]: In the courthouse and around the courthouse with some of the law tubers covering the case from a defense point of view.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_01]: We saw, we saw, we saw one of the defense attorneys hand one of the YouTubers a post-it note right in front of us.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't subtle.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_05]: We went out to get a sandwich once and in the corner of the restaurant, the defense team was eating lunch with a YouTuber.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It was not subtle.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And like, if that's what they want to do, okay.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to me like it was more about getting around the gag order than anything else.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause like you could have people run your talking points for you, but I worry that they kind of adopted a YouTube strategy that maybe didn't serve their client that well.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And as for the prosecution, this ties into Kristen's question.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think Nick McClellan was listening to your coverage, AKA bridge guy starter kit?

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I, I, in, in my sort of fugue state, you know, sleepy mode made a comment at some point, I guess that Alan had a bridge guy starter kit in his house.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and, uh, that actually, uh, McClellan said that in his, uh, in his, in his closing, but I, I have a feeling and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't necessarily think that the prosecution team was tuning in to listen to murder sheet.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a lot going on.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a lot going on.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01]: My guess is that perhaps that just sort of, after I said that, that kind of was, uh, everywhere in the Delphi community.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's possible that they just aren't too proud of yourself.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm, I'm a bit of an influencer.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, no, I, I think in all honesty, it was probably picked up through osmosis rather than actually tuning in.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause if I were then the last thing, if I were them or the defense attorneys, the last thing I would want to do is listen to some sleep deprived jokers ranting about what I just experienced.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that fair to say?

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Or you, but you should listen, uh, definitely download and subscribe.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I mean, like, I don't know.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't feel like they were, I don't feel like any, any of the parties.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_05]: The thing is, I don't know.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I do know in another occasions when we have covered court hearings, we have in detail, we have afterwards heard from some of the attorneys in those hearings who told us that listening to us describe what happened in such detail, uh, was cathartic.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_05]: For them.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't know if that happened in this case, but it has happened in other cases.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Because, uh, a lot of these attorneys don't even get mentioned that much in press coverage.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they did.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it just kind of entered the osmosis of the case.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna says, this may be a dumb question, but if Richard Allen confesses to his defense team, is it illegal for them to say he's innocent?

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Can they only try to lessen the sentence at that point?

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna, that is not a dumb question.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That is probably a question that most non-attorneys would immediately think of when they hear somebody's client is confessing 61 times.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you answer it?

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Attorney?

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin Attorney?

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Or Kevin Greenlee, Attorney at Law?

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Why does that make you laugh?

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's great.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, attorneys aren't allowed to knowingly put on false information.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So, for instance, if Anya says, Kevin, I stole 10 boxes of cereal, I can't put her on the stand and have her say otherwise.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Aw.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Because then I'm putting, knowingly putting forgery on the stand in front of the court.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_05]: So it limits their options as to what they can present, assuming that they believe it.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So here's, an exception would be is if I'm ranting and having some mental health episode and I tell Kevin that he can order a competency hearing because if he doesn't believe me, maybe there's a mental health thing going on.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Or if Anya confesses to me, but she also says, I know they didn't read me my rights.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I can then defend her and say, oh, they didn't read Anya for rights.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Or they, the investigation was flawed.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I can make other defenses.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I just can't knowingly lie.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys, yeah.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Why?

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: If you guys enjoy legal thrillers, courtroom dramas, there's a wonderful Jimmy Stewart film called Anatomy of a Murder.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And in that it has, he is a former prosecutor who turns defense attorney and he gets a case.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it's very, it's a very good film.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And my understanding is that.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Fine, go ahead.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_05]: My understanding is that that movie may have been discussed at some point on a podcast called Mystery to me.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you done?

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm done.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you happy now?

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So, there's a scene in that where Jimmy Stewart is, he has his new client and he's almost subtly discouraging him.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't want to know.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Almost like what, like, kind of like, don't tell me anything because that will limit my ability to defend you.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So, there's a scene like that where you can kind of get the sense of the gray area.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Clinton says, I'm about to drive to Delphi for a biscuit, I swear.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_05]: You should do that.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_05]: You should do that.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Ever since we've gotten back, I have crazily, all through the night, I'm not, with my lantern, I'm not going around looking for an honest man.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going around looking for a good biscuit.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm dragging Anya with me, trying to find good biscuits, especially if they were anywhere near as good as those biscuits in Delphi and I've not had any luck.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Those biscuits were so good.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_05]: I miss those biscuits.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I miss the biscuits, too.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That was, yeah, that was a good point.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Go to Delphi and get those biscuits.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_05]: They gave us mugs, right?

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they did give us mugs.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Show them all the mugs.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They were super nice there, too.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you should go say hi to them.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Blah!

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_04]: They gave us mugs.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They gave us a mug.

[00:52:12] Whoop.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: They're super nice.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, strong, strong recommend.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Emily says, tell us more about Richard Allen nodding at the end.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Was he possibly telling Kathy he was guilty and I told you I was guilty?

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think was happening in that moment?

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: If that was at the verdict, we did not make it in that day.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of nodding going on with Richard Allen.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There was pointing at us.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: He nodded at Kevin at one point after the pointing incident.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He was nodding a lot.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know if we can read too much into that without asking him, hey, how did you feel in that moment?

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He was doing a lot.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He was squirming in his seat at times.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: At other times, he was very stoic.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's just really hard to say.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Ann asks, at what point were you both confident in Richard Allen's guilt?

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say the van certainly cemented it for me.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That kind of was sort of a, I don't know, certainly a pretty big moment for the prosecution.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I would agree with that.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, it almost just cemented what I'd already been hearing the whole time.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess that was sort of where I was.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that was like a Rubicon point in Newark turn.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Kim asks, Dr. John Mathias, Hidden True Crime, a clinical psychologist who worked in the prison system for over 20 years, did a very insightful analysis of the crime and the type of personality Richard Allen probably has.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why Lauren was in Delphi for the trial.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we met Lauren.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_05]: So, we have not, we've been very busy.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So, we have not, to be honest, we've not watched a second of Hidden True Crime.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_05]: But we did talk a lot with Lauren in Delphi.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_05]: And she was intelligent and insightful and very impressive.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And she had someone there working with her.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if we're allowed to say her name.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Grayson.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say it's Grayson.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_05]: She took amazing notes.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_05]: She's amazing.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And not only did she take amazing notes, they were like color-coded.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They were, I told, I made this joke in person to people.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They were like the illuminated manuscript of notes.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It was beautiful.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Grayson, Lauren, and Lauren's whole team were class acts.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like they came into the trial with a really open mind and a dedication to come out and really just do a good job.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like they succeeded.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were absolutely a pleasure to speak to.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I was really, I cannot wait to dive into some of Hidden True Crime.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, again, we haven't had the time.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But I know.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I was very impressed with them.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I had some very interesting conversations with them.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's an interesting example, too.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Because as far as I know, they had not covered Delta.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: No, they hadn't.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01]: They were super respectful about it.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_05]: So, they came in with an open mind and did an intelligent, commendable job.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was really impressed.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of our audience were listening to us and them.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, heck, yeah.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Because just what we saw in the courtroom was absolutely, they were doing it right.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_05]: When you're standing out in line, and you're standing out in line.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_05]: When you're standing outside in line with people for hours, you get to know them.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_05]: You do.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_05]: You get a good sense of them.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And good people.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Very good.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very nice people.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie says, hi, everyone.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm late.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's okay, Rosie.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry about it.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you so much for coming.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Missy Ann asks, Kevin is nothing if not a purveyor of fan fiction.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I've got some good ones.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I probably shouldn't share them.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_05]: But I've got some good ones.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-oh.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of his fan fiction is a serial theft, though.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone seeing through the ruse, finally.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite thing is people now email us like, why do you guys talk about serial so much?

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Ask this man.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_05]: People in person were asking on you.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_05]: What is it with you and serial?

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What's with you and serial?

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh my gosh.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Ruined my life.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_01]: My whole reputation is all about serial now.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Kim says, I was so happy to see they had no doubt of Rich John's guilt after seeing the evidence.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, should I say the rest of this?

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Why not?

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Who cares?

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Bob Mata tried to gaslight them, but they didn't fall for it.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They talked about the horrible treatment reporters like you have received.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's been a mess.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I just appreciate seeing people come into it and sort of taking it very seriously and doing a great job reporting on it.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a pleasure to see because, you know, that was maybe the exception to the rule rather than what everyone was doing.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I thought it was great.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not like you have to have started covering the case on day one.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and it's not like you can't do good work even if you're a YouTuber.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_05]: They came on very late in the game.

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_05]: They did really fine work.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you don't, it's like you don't need to have all of the context.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to come in with an open mind and hear everything.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they did.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Clinton asks, do you think they will release Allen's two police interviews or will someone have to file a FOIA to get them?

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone may have to file a FOIA to get them.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, what I would hope is that when those interviews are released to the public as they should be, I would hope that they are unedited because what was played.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Why are you laughing?

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was so weird in the quorum.

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_05]: There were things that were cut out and we can speculate about what some of those things were.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I'm pretty sure they must have asked them about the clients for instance.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And other things were cut out.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_05]: It was one very jarring edit.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_05]: This is what I'm going to recreate it.

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we're talking here normally and then suddenly we're screaming.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, it was just like the most jarring, like, okay, what's going on?

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Da da da da da.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then suddenly like everyone's yelling.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_05]: And I, I think I would also hope that the recordings of the confessions made over the phone should be released to the public because it is the voice of Richard Allen on those phone calls.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_05]: It is to me most similar to the voice of Rich Guy.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I concur.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Hearing Allen say again and again, Ricky in his, uh, you know, you're calling, you know, a correctional institute that, that was very similar as were the calls as was the, uh,

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: interview with, uh, Steve Mullen and Tony Ligon.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_05]: The interview, his voice in the interview with Steve, his voice in the interview with Jerry Holman was a little bit different from his voice in the other.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Just a little bit.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, the one with Holman is where it goes from zero to 60 in terms of the energy in it.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Although it's then kind of funny because then there was an, you know, kind of after he's arrested, then suddenly it kind of dies back down.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's, it's, so it just, I would think would be super interesting for everyone to see all of that.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, looks like some of these comments are getting squished together.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to go, I'm going back.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Here we go.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, let's see.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Rebecca says, it feels like no one close to Kathy Allen will be truthful and honest with her.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I really hope that that's not the case, Rebecca, but it would be very unfortunate if that was what was happening.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I, I am heartened to see that she does have an attorney.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I, I think there's, there's definitely opportunities for her to kind of, um, you know, uh, like have her, have her rights and her, her interests represented here.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, uh, but if she's kind of hearing from a lot of people that, you know, there's still hope that I think that would be, um, you know, that, that, that might be influencing her as well.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Anne says, after so many years, how do you feel post-trial?

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll let you answer that first, Kevin.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it's really hit me yet.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_05]: And people have told us that it was jarring to them with, Oh, we, we get to hear you and Anya every night.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_05]: And then we don't hear you and it's all over.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_05]: It was jarring for us because through the years leading up to the case.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And then certainly during the trial itself, we just lived and breathed this case and then it's done.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_05]: It's over.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_05]: It's jarring.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it's really fully hit me.

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a, like a weird idea that like we'd leave Delphi on the day of the verdict and just be kind of like, wow, it's over.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But I keep on worrying about the line and like how we're going to get in.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still there mentally.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I still think about the images we saw a lot and I still, I feel like I'm not back yet.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I'm very pleased that the families have this phase of it over because I know this stress must be enormous to be going through this.

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm very pleased for them.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I think that the jury made the right call.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think justice was done for those girls, but it definitely feels weirder than I thought it would.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren said, I think an epilogue written by Doug Carter, Indiana State Police Superintendent needs to be in your book.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: What if he just wrote like these freaking people?

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Picture of him shaking his head.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I've come to respect Doug Carter.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we, we definitely criticized him and the Indiana State Police a lot when we started this.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And we criticized him for this case and we really criticized them for another case.

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Burger shot.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But I, I feel like he seems like a person who's really sincere, who cared about this case deeply.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was, he was showing up to, you know, court hearings, pre-trial hearings, uh, and then at the trial.

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, I think one thing that's wild about this is hit, hit, you know, he's about to retire.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is all coming to an end for him as he's leaving office.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I imagine that must on some level be gratifying to have the kind of case that he's most known for that.

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He is, again, I think very sincerely and eloquently at times talked about how much it means to him and how much he cares about these families.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: To have that all wrap up like right before he's, he's gone is just, I mean, that must be kind of wild.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And Sue speaks for everybody when she, heart sign Anya.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's so nice.

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody loves Anya.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: No, thank you.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really sweet.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_05]: You're the toast of the town.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Aw, why are you trying to make me blush?

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: That's very sweet.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Sue.

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, let's see.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Miss Ian indicates she believes Kathy Allen has been deceived on so many levels, but it has to be hard to make yourself believe you married a murderer.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when you look at people who are in this situation, you often see there's a struggle.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we, we, uh, we, we certainly sympathize.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a situation that's if you love someone very deeply and then it turns out that they did something horrible.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I think reconciling that must be one of the hardest things.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna says your genuine love and support for each other has been so sweet to witness over the course of the trial and before.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I thank you, Jenna.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna, I feel like everyone was thinking, like, they're gonna start losing it at each other.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it brought us closer together, uh, honestly, like, cause it, it, like, we had to really rely on each other.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And we made kind of a deal at the start of this.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, whatever little annoyances, whatever little things, you know, we're doing to annoy each other during this, we just gotta let it go.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So, and, uh, I think that's a good lesson for relationships in general.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the thing that the person's doing that's driving you nuts, like, in 15 minutes, it doesn't matter.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And I remember the early days of the podcast, we tried really hard to keep personalities and tonal changes out of it.

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_05]: We tried to, basically, we spoke at a monotone, I think.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We were Mr. Spock.

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And.

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Now we're Dr. McCoy.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_05]: But we would get comments sometimes, like, oh, I'm shocked that they were married.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Cause I guess.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_05]: They have so little chemistry with one another.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm glad that, uh.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That was always embarrassing.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are these people married?

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't seem to be interested in each other at all.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, we're just, we're just really awkward.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Kim asks, is it easy to get trial transcripts in Indiana?

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope they will soon be out and people who've been snowed by false reporting will see how they're played.

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it depends on how you define easy.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody could go and order these transcripts.

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, it's, I think like five or six dollars a page.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really expensive.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's an ungodly amount of money.

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Now the odds are there is going to be some kind of an appeal, whether it's a good appeal or not.

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not going to be a good appeal.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_05]: So, but oftentimes when an appeal was done, the appeal will include a copy of the transcript.

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And that may be made available to the public free of charge.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's, there's hope.

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Clinton says, I think Jason Blair should do a forward for the book.

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: His interview bearing witness was fantastic and so heartfelt.

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Jason should do a forward for every book.

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason's amazing.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Clinton.

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great suggestion.

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And he is, uh, he's.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And thank you.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_05]: We were interviewed by Jason for, uh, his podcast.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't remember what he said.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I feel like I sounded like a real cold fish.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, yes, it has been difficult.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, he was, he was so compassionate and just like, I don't know.

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a, he's a wonderful human being.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay says, my morning routine was listening to the daily summary episode.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't lie.

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: My shower has been less entertaining this week.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and yeah, I feel like we need to do something that's a little bit more fitting that, filling

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that void.

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Missy Ann asked what was the best thing about Delphi?

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_05]: The best thing about Delphi is those people.

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_05]: The people in Delphi were so incredibly friendly and welcoming and kind and sweet.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And they would offer you generosity and friendliness over and above the call of duty.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the family, uh, the patties and the Germans, they would give food to people waiting

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_05]: in line.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Including people who've been jerks to them for years.

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the security people in the court.

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved them.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, they take their job very, very seriously and they made that very, very clear, but they

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_05]: also were friendly to you and they weren't mean.

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_05]: They were very kind.

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_05]: They would always have a smile for the people coming in and just everybody was so kind.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my answer too.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Delphi residents rock.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria asks, what point did you feel like you knew for sure Richard Allen was the killer?

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if there was a singular moment Maria for me, but just as the trial went on

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and the, as the prosecution presented his case, but in the back of my mind, I sort of

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: held out for some space for the defense to come in and knock some of that down.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And when they didn't, it certainly solidified things for me.

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It is your question from Debbie.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll read it.

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Debbie asks, Kevin, do you see anything that happened in this case that the defense can

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: really hang their hats on for an appeal?

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Next question.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Great question.

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I really don't.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't mean to be glib about that.

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Judge Gould, we have criticisms about Judge Gould on a number of things, but the

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_05]: way she handled the actual trial, the way she protected Richard Allen's rights, I think

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_05]: she did a fine job.

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Agreed.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_05]: And one thing to remember is there is, there is someone on Twitter who is, I'm saying Michael

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Osborne.

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_05]: He, he is apparently handling the appeal for Richard Allen.

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's incredibly confident.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_05]: He's, he's like tweeting out pictures.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I think of wolves and stuff.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_05]: This is like, they're going to do the legal equivalent of being wolves.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what that means, but he's very, very confident.

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_05]: The appeal is going to be successful.

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_05]: But please remember a few months ago, he was confident.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_05]: He said, there's a good chance that the case is so weak against Richard Allen.

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a fair chance they're going to dismiss it even before the trial.

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_05]: So when people are making dramatic predictions about the success of the appeal, just remember

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_05]: their track record.

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's like those cults in the 1800s where they're like, we're all going to get

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: raptured on this specific Tuesday.

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Tuesday rolls around.

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: No one's raptured.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I missed up.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually three years from now.

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, at some point, maybe.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And, and lightning, our dog is walking around in preparation for this next question.

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: She's stomping around.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And Teresa and Rosie want to know how are, how is Lanny, our dog doing?

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: How excited has she been to have you home?

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think she's been pretty happy.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: We were a little worried about her at first because she wasn't eating as much and I felt

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so bad, but now she's, she's back to her normal eats and she's kind of standing there

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: looking stoic now.

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, I think she's had, oh, you're wagging your tail.

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: She's wagging her tail.

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So she knows we're talking about her.

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I know.

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but, uh, but she's, she's doing well.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for asking.

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We really missed her a lot when we were doing this, our executive producer.

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but they, she had a good time.

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think at the, at her little place where she went.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly asks, I genuinely believe the defense had not prepared a backup plan.

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Once Odin is was out.

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they had all their eggs in one wacky basket and a wacky basket.

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It was indeed Kelly.

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's the case, then yikes, because it was never coming back in.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the three day hearing should have prompted, uh, some continuances and maybe some

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: soul searching in this defense team.

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems that it did not.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I, that, that's, I don't understand that.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Kristen asks, is there a hidden true crime slash MS collab episode in the works?

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we certainly hope so at some point, but, uh, but we'll see.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about it.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk about it.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think I've even texted them, but.

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought you said you texted them today.

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I, I did not.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You drafted the text.

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I drafted a text.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a, but, uh, but we, we, we'd certainly like to do that.

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they, they really did a wonderful job and should be absolutely commended on that.

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, let's see.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Kim said, I missed y'all this week.

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel about a daily podcast?

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing we were talking about, Kim.

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing is we don't want to sacrifice quality for quantity.

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to be like, Hey guys, uh, how about them cubs?

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I think you guys would get really sick of us if we were doing something

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like that.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so I think we're kind of like, it may end up being, um, a podcast where that

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: comes out a lot of times a week because we have a lot of stuff from author interviews to kind

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of more scripted episodes to more legal analysis episodes, but we'd like to incorporate at least

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the kind of vibe of our trial episodes into that.

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know what you think, or like, if you have any suggestions about what you really

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: liked about it so we can incorporate that into it.

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And would you like to hear an interview about the possible criminal ties of Zeppel Marx?

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_05]: If so, I might have some good news for you.

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Somehow all of our, uh, our, our listeners have left the stream and are unsubscribing from

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the Patreon.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: See what you did?

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: A Zeppel Marx that had killed us.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: He may have killed others.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: No, he didn't.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just maybe involved in the mob.

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Sadie wants to note, uh, in terms of Richard Allen, let's be clear.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He was not in solitary confinement.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He was in a cell alone.

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Big difference.

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, this was something that did come up in trial, Sadie too, where they're talking about

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: solitary confinement, which is like a punishment status versus being in a one man cell.

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the prosecution wanted to delineate that.

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the defense wanted to say, well, same difference.

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I, I kind of understand both sides, but it seems like certainly in this case, um,

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm still here.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_05]: He's fighting my dog.

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: He's scritching Lanny.

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Cam says, you guys are calming.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you, Pam.

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We try to be.

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_05]: People often tell us that they listen to us on the podcast when they're trying to go to

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_05]: sleep.

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We are so boring.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We will knock you out.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Teresa says the, the very mysterious, we just want you to.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it cuts off.

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Teresa.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Do not leave us hanging.

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You were about to suggest the, like the thing we need to do.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_05]: We need to contact the authorities.

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_05]: It's Teresa.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Drop it in the chat.

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man.

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie said, I'm stunned that the trial went smoothly.

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I predicted a mistrial or jurors dropping out.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to lie.

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I was with you once we were on like day three of deliberation.

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're going to, it's going to be a mistrial.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We did have a alternate juror drop out apparently due to a family emergency.

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But other than that, it went shockingly smoothly.

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Sue said any topic, the withdrawals have been horrific.

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I know from, from us.

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Geez.

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, no, I, I don't, I don't feel at any top.

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to hear.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean like.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Zeppo marks.

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_04]: If so, I might have some good news.

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Sue, you say that now.

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then on day six, you know, the 12 part Zeppo marks thing.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, 12, 12, part 12 Zeppo.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: What it, where was Zeppo when this happened?

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be hit smashing that unsubscribe button.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen said, it did feel like you were talking right to us.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: As we so often said, we are best friends.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You just don't know it.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you know it all.

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Kristen.

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you guys are all my best friends too.

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been really nice.

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, it, it, it does feel like we're like, it felt like talking directly to you more so than anything else.

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I really enjoyed that.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I did too.

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Teresa said, oop, tell us what you've been doing all week.

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Today was grocery day.

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Except no, we're not going to do a podcast about the store.

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless I really do plan one of those heists.

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: In which case you're all invited.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_05]: See, and the thing is, my secret dream is to do a grocery store podcast.

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a secret dream.

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I'm so bizarre.

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I love grocery stores.

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And whenever we go anywhere, I say, Anya, look, it's a grocery store.

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He would have been, I was a retail reporter.

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He would have been the best retail reporter.

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like you would, that was your, that was your vocation.

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Sue said, hopefully it was cathartic for you guys to talk to us after court each day.

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is what it was.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It was cathartic.

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, we're unloading all of this.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully it didn't feel too like, blah, but, uh, hopefully it was still informative.

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Although like, honestly, some days I'm like, people will be like,

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, remember when Anya said this?

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd be like, what?

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: What did I say?

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, it's funny.

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_05]: People in our group, sometimes our Facebook group will have like, Oh, here's a quote that Kevin or Anya said.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And often I don't remember it.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Blacked out.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly said, did Kevin get a shrimp?

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Not yet.

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: That's all.

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's on the agenda.

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Kimberly asks, what are your thoughts on mitigating and aggravating factors?

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And what's the sentence might look like?

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good question.

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_05]: What are your thoughts?

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, mitigating factors might be something like mental illness in a, in a meaningful way prompted this.

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Or it's hard to think of anything else.

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Cooperate with authorities.

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Briefly.

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_05]: He reported, he self-reported, aggravating, obviously a horrific crime.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a fragile egg.

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Horrific crime involving, uh, two children, two children, two children, two children, two young girls.

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, aggravating.

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they experienced horror before they died and were, Libby was crying when she died and there's a lot of aggravating.

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's a good question.

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be curious to see what ends up coming up.

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie said, I was worried about an appeal potentially overturning the conviction until I listened to the prosecutor's episode.

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The host explained why it's very unlikely.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's not going to happen.

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Not going to happen.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, prosecutors are great.

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They've done some excellent coverage of this case.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like they often have these helpful episodes where it's sort of taking issues like that where you're like wondering, hey, well, like, how would this happen?

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And they kind of break it all down for you.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Pam asks, if your client confesses to you, is it legal to make up a cult killing of two children to defend your client after they confessed?

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Hypothetically, of course.

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what a wacky situation, Pam.

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_05]: But they claim that if he confessed, it wasn't a real confession because he was pressured into doing it through the machinations of that selfsame cult.

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: What a mess.

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Teresa says, honestly, a cat jury would be awesome.

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_05]: See, I don't even remember where that's in reference.

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you say something like that really today?

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I probably don't know.

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I know at one point behind the scenes, you were like riffing on something about dogs and cats on trial.

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: At times we would see these neighborhood cats and they were great.

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were my therapy cats.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I love them.

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I still miss them.

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're beautiful.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they would be good jurors.

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They seem very respectful.

[01:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen said, think of any of the jurors will talk?

[01:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's my message to the jurors.

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Run.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Run.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I would love to hear from the jurors.

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_05]: But the problem is a lot of people have made public appeals for the jurors to come and talk.

[01:18:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And I would be concerned that the jurors might go to someone untrustworthy and identifying information.

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of those people are fine to talk to you.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Others are like that kind of fish with the light dangling.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to bite you and eat you if you come near the light.

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_05]: So if anybody knows any jurors and they're unsure.

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't look back.

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Run.

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_05]: The safest thing to do is just don't talk to anybody.

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt when she turned back.

[01:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the idea here.

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Run.

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And the fact is they don't owe us anything.

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_05]: They did their job.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_05]: They did it well.

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I think some of the jurors might hypothetically be like looking at the internet coverage and be like,

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, I need to defend myself and my decision.

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to do anything.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody has a right.

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_05]: If you want to, we'd love to talk to you.

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm saying I wouldn't recommend it.

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm taking us off.

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'd love to talk to the jurors.

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I would too.

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm saying if I was a friend of the jurors, I would advise them not to do that.

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I would say just.

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_05]: But if they want to talk, sure.

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to talk, talk to us.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And we will keep you out of it.

[01:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would really strongly recommend against talking to anybody.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the jurors in particular was often looking into the gallery.

[01:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd be like this.

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, Oh, dude, I know.

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I know how you feel right now.

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm in the gallery.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think some of the jurors might talk and it might be a big mistake because they could just end up getting doxxed.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the reason why I'm saying Rudd is not just to be facetious.

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I think there are people out there that will actually try to attack these people for being on the jury and will try to wreck their lives over a verdict that they disagree with.

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would hate to see people have that happen to them because it's just stupid and they don't owe us their time or risking their peace in their lives.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria asked, Will you be at sentencing?

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's rare for a person to commit a heinous crime for the first time at age 50.

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So curious to see if we will learn of behaviors prior to 2017.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Great question, Maria.

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know about like when.

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be there.

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll definitely be there.

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as the other stuff, maybe we will, maybe we won't.

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely an unusual crime in many respects for sure.

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly asks, I was skeptical after the PCA too, but you were right in your evidence episode.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the totality of the evidence.

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care about what True Crime Swine 89 says.

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, Kelly, thank you for going with the respectful rebranding of our old enemy True Crime Swine.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would also just say, yes, it is the totality.

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not if I was to hold up one rock representing one piece of evidence, you'd say, well, that's not enough to hold anyone down.

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you pile all the rocks on, then it certainly is.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it just it's that's what it is.

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of reporters had a hard time understanding that because they're like, where's the big sexy piece of evidence that's going to blow everyone?

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, it's just not that kind of case.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Frankly, a lot of cases are not that kind of case.

[01:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Sheree asks, do you think the pro-RA YouTubers are getting paid for the defense?

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I haven't seen any evidence of that, but they are getting access and they are getting perks.

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They aren't even getting paid by YouTube.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: They are.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_05]: They are getting perks like a guaranteed seat in the courthouse every day.

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Or access or feeling important or feeling like a junior deputy woodchuck member scout of the team.

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_05]: They're getting paid by YouTube.

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not that much.

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying they're getting paid peanuts by YouTube.

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not motivated by money.

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They're motivated by wanting to belong and attention.

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I mean, there might be some of them, the smarter ones who are thinking long term.

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And like if I if I really have a high profile on this case, I could build a whole career off of it.

[01:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: That's certainly possible.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think the defense needs to pay or bribe anyone.

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think all the defense needs to do is say, hey, you know, like want to feel like you're in the mix with us and people will do whatever they want.

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that fair to say?

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Tracy says, look over and the cat jury is licking itself or puking up hairballs staring at the ceiling.

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Were you talking about a cat jury?

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Was I talking about a cat jury?

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Was I like just that out of it?

[01:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: That I don't remember this?

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Anya, you did a whole episode about a cat jury.

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We were all concerned.

[01:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We sent you many emails asking if you were okay.

[01:23:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Anya's talking about a cat jury.

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you're doing the white noise music.

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, because.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for coming on.

[01:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: What do I always say?

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Cherie says, so great to see you both again.

[01:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so great to see you.

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: This is so fun.

[01:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I love doing this.

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really nice to be back.

[01:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We missed it so much.

[01:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, yeah, we're so back.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie said, I think the defense could have gotten a hungry or established reasonable doubt that they used a different strategy.

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not sure they could have.

[01:24:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But I would agree.

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_05]: The strategy they used was bad.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_05]: To be blunt, it was a poor strategy that was also poorly executed.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was intellectually dishonest.

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I mean, it's their job to defend them no matter what.

[01:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But I agree with you, Rosie, that there would have been ways to get it where I might have been a little bit more like, I see what their point is.

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about reasonable doubt.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think their goal at this point was hung jury.

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And that remains to be seen.

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I also think, frankly, maybe if they'd done a little bit.

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't feel like the defense performance in voir dire was all that impressive.

[01:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Given that, like, Brad Rosie opened it up by asking somebody if they had an intellectual disability.

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That sort of seemed like a deal.

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_05]: That wasn't his opening.

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He asked all of it.

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it wasn't his opening.

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But, like, that was their introduction to him on some level.

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think voir dire is where you can kind of really assemble a team who might be more open to your strategy.

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe then that hangs up the jury later on.

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like they.

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_05]: So bad strategy, poorly executed.

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was not good.

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen said, one thing this trial has made clear to me is that there's a severe lack of prosecution-minded content creators.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Or rather, creators who use logic and common sense and not just crazy stuff.

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you this, Kristen.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: There's cases out there that, you know, I'm sure we'll cover at some point where I feel like the prosecution is more in the role as the off-the-wall side that's totally ridiculous.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_04]: David Cam.

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, David Cam would be the one that comes to, you know, where it's just kind of a big mess.

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And in those situations, we're certainly.

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_05]: The key thing is not what side you're on as long as you are on the side of logic and common sense.

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing.

[01:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We need the common sense people.

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are some in true crime, but they're not nearly enough.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something we're going to talk about next week.

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's been a slew of, frankly, mediocre, poorly executed episodes of just random podcasts that ought to know better.

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: That have come out and been like, well, I mean, maybe it wasn't fair because Odinism didn't come in.

[01:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, you don't know what Odinism is.

[01:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been dealing with Odinism for like two years.

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like whatever.

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: How long?

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like two years.

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a year.

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you running away?

[01:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean to scare you.

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's scared everybody.

[01:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But seriously.

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But like sometimes I just want to yell at people and be like, you don't know what it's like in here.

[01:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been in the Odinism trenches.

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We tried to give it a chance.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was ridiculous.

[01:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know what I'm ranting about.

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We can move on.

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Rosie says no one talked about the veteran aspect because Richard Allen served in the military.

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And so did a lot of the other key players, including prosecutors and police officers.

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think we really talked about that.

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But I know Allen was very involved, it sounds like, in the reserves, right?

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe so.

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was definitely a big part of his life.

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Pam asks, how did you come up with the name Murder Sheet?

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a great question because it's not readily apparent.

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's not, let's be honest, it's not a great title.

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Throwing me under the bus because it was my idea.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_05]: We're among friends here.

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Throwing me under the bus.

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Where are you going?

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_05]: So we met over our interest in the Burger Chef case.

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And that is a restaurant homicide that had some unusual features to it, including the fact that the victims were taken from the restaurant and then killed at another location.

[01:28:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And so Anya got interested.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Hyper fixated, one might say.

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_05]: She wondered, well, Kevin, we think these are unusual aspects, but are they really?

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And so she wanted to look into other restaurant homicides.

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And she found out that the FBI and other agencies had never really focused just on restaurant homicide.

[01:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Nor should they, frankly, because it's not statistically sound.

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_05]: So she began creating a spreadsheet of every restaurant homicide she could find and included details about it.

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And at some point I started helping you with the spreadsheet.

[01:28:38] [SPEAKER_05]: And so the initial concept was that the murder sheet would only cover cases that appeared on that restaurant homicide spreadsheet.

[01:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we were talking about a name.

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: All of the good names have gotten taken at this point.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were like, I think I was just like, murder sheet, because it's a spreadsheet.

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of evoked a newspaper for me, which I kind of liked.

[01:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think you've been very ambivalent about the name all the time.

[01:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But now I love the name because then people call us the murder sheets, which is funny.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're the two individuals.

[01:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's our answer.

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And then we expanded beyond our restaurant.

[01:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, people were like, why didn't you call it murder on the menu?

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, well, we don't want to do restaurants forever.

[01:29:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And then it was funny.

[01:29:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Somebody sent us a screenshot of the description we wrote for our first Delphi episode.

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Where we said, we're going to take just a short break away from restaurant homicides.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We're just going to step away for a second.

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_05]: For our 200 or 300 episodes.

[01:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Never come back.

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We're still in Delphi.

[01:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll go.

[01:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we'll do more restaurant homicides.

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just I don't think this show needs to be focused on that anymore.

[01:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Tracy said, I thought on occasion that maybe some of the pro-defense people were planted there.

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the defense may have been behind some of the shenanigans, pure speculation.

[01:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I can tell you, Tracy, the defense were definitely behind shenanigans.

[01:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But whether they...

[01:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Kelly mentions.

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Tracy, I agree.

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty sure some of that was confirmed in the brain trust.

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They were shenanigans.

[01:30:12] [SPEAKER_05]: That comment was from Kelly.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: There were shenanigans.

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But the question of were they paid actors, paid provocateurs, we've not seen any evidence in that.

[01:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And frankly, when you don't need to pay people to behave badly, I don't think we necessarily need to assume that anyone got paid.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see.

[01:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Christy said, it's so good to see you guys relax and your playful selves.

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you.

[01:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really sweet.

[01:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, if you have ideas on how we can incorporate that into the show, let us know.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It may not be able to be nightly, but it could be weekly, I think.

[01:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe even multiple times a week, but we'll see.

[01:30:53] [SPEAKER_03]: You're so ambitious.

[01:30:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm ambitious.

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm changing everything.

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I...

[01:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He's got power back.

[01:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm nuts now.

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This has broken me.

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He's holding his head like this right now, just looking off into the space.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where we are.

[01:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where we are as people.

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Where are you going?

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You're like sliding away from me.

[01:31:15] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, yesterday we recorded an episode of our other podcast, Mystery Review, which we haven't released.

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_05]: It may never release.

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_05]: But because of a different way of doing things, we had to listen to the introduction of that podcast.

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And Anya was so embarrassed by that introduction, she just sat and held her head.

[01:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys remember how bad the murder sheet intro used to be where we went on for like five hours about like what...

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Think that, but more cringe.

[01:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Stacy asks, was Kathy Allen out of town taking care of a sick parent on February 13 or at work?

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard both.

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, we don't know.

[01:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think work.

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: My understanding was work, but I don't have that like doubly confirmed.

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie said, for the trial, I'm really disappointed I couldn't go.

[01:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I planned to go and scheduled a round, but it was obvious I was unlikely to get a seat.

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie, I think you made the right call there.

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry you couldn't come either.

[01:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it was...

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It was awful.

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And there were so many people who like showed up,

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like traveled like from across the country who'd get like cut off at the last...

[01:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just awful.

[01:32:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Christy mentions Susan Hendricks.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Christy says, I listened to Susan Hendricks' book and she was very complimentary about Murder Sheet.

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't read or listened to anyone that hasn't been physically and emotionally invested in Delphi.

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Christy, Susan Hendricks is a very, very lovely person.

[01:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And her book Down the Hill is really compassionate and really good.

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we always recommend...

[01:32:44] [SPEAKER_05]: She's wonderful.

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She's awesome.

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: She saved our butts so many times at this trial.

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, we need to get seats.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't she get like heated blankets at one point?

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like we didn't get frostbite because of Susan Hendricks at this point.

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you watch Susan Hendricks on television or read her book,

[01:33:04] [SPEAKER_05]: you know she's intelligent and articulate and professional and empathetic.

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_05]: But you may not know she's just a fun person, a great person to talk to.

[01:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like she helped us stay sane at this.

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're very, very grateful to her.

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Where are we going?

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Susan Hendricks was the last one.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Lydia says, we missed you.

[01:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We missed you guys so much.

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Debbie says, the core TV coverage of the verdict was horrific.

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of stuff going on.

[01:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's all I'll say.

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Slam, bam.

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I really heard the episode.

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was a low moment.

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm very tired.

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That was a low moment for all of us, I think.

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay says, in Kevin's defense, pun intended,

[01:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't be surprised that's how they talk about the stories.

[01:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I was trying to...

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It was very sophisticated.

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_05]: It was all very thoughtful, all very clear.

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Jay's giving you an out.

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not just me being an idiot.

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria said, did Judge Gull break the law about public access?

[01:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you believe she will be sued?

[01:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if this is true,

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but I heard one person filed something against her during trial.

[01:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Did she break the law?

[01:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not.

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Did she really aggravate and annoy us?

[01:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But she didn't break the law.

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not quite that simple.

[01:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think...

[01:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, one thing you have to understand is judges have a lot of leeway over what goes on in a courtroom.

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So if the judge is saying,

[01:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to really give reasonable accommodations to media,

[01:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that is very frustrating and bad in my view and in your view too,

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but it doesn't mean that they're breaking the law.

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_05]: That makes sense, but I'm not sure if what she gave us all was meaningful public access,

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_05]: and I'm sure that's something that's going to be debated and argued about for a long time.

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But in legal circles, public access means the public can come in the courtroom.

[01:35:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so she didn't break any laws.

[01:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: She did not break any laws.

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it was good.

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to defend it, nor am I defending it.

[01:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We really had problems.

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And yes, one of the law tubers did file some suit against Judge Gull that I would guess is not going to go anywhere.

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that would be our feeling.

[01:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I wish things were different in Indiana where there was more protection of meaningful public access.

[01:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And just when you're looking at the landscape here, that's just not it.

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And as far as again, when you look at the rules, as far as I'm concerned, she'd be like,

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: well, I let the public in all 24 of them and 14 on some days.

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of, I'm the judge.

[01:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So there you go.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's kind of where it is.

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see.

[01:36:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Rosie has a question.

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Great question from Rosie.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't understand why the defense didn't call some of their other witnesses.

[01:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Kagan Klein could have confused jurors.

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Why didn't Kathy Allen testify?

[01:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I still can't believe he didn't tell her he was on the bridge for five years.

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie, great questions.

[01:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me, so Kagan Klein was never going to talk to the jurors directly because that was disallowed by the motion in Lemonade.

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a situation where I think Kevin and I were like, that could go either way.

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Odinism, I thought, was totally out.

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But Kagan, I was like, I could see letting that in and letting it out.

[01:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was kind of marginal.

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But the reason he didn't come in is because they did not call him for the offer of proof where they would have been able to at least establish that for appeals court.

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It also makes me question some things because I thought if they'd gone with Kagan Klein from the beginning, they would have been in a much stronger position.

[01:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they could have gotten more information that would have made it so that they did establish more of a nexus.

[01:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they didn't really put a lot of effort into Kagan Klein at the three-day hearing.

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm surprised when you look back that they didn't just go with Klein from the start.

[01:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought he would be like a built-in boogeyman, third-party suspect who would have been somebody that a jury could have certainly looked at very seriously.

[01:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Kathy Allen going on the stand could have...

[01:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: The risk of putting someone on the stand is that they can be cross-examined.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that...

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: When you're dealing with somebody in this situation, that would be something you always need.

[01:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when Jennifer OJ put Allen's daughter Brittany Zapanta and Allen's sister Jamie Jones on the stand, she really kept her questions super limited of like, do you love your dad?

[01:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Did he molest you?

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, kind of in order so that the prosecution couldn't cross-examine them too much because you have to focus on what was done and direct.

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't just bring in random stuff.

[01:38:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So with Kathy Allen, there might have been, you know, they don't want to open it up too much.

[01:38:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I thought it was also really odd that Richard Allen apparently did not tell Kathy that he had been on the bridge for five years.

[01:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be something that would certainly raise my hackles.

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Stacey says, lawyers really are salesmen.

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, Kevin.

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Salesmen for truth and honesty and reason and logic.

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: He always says the lawyers, the princes among men.

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Clinton says court TV was awful.

[01:38:35] [SPEAKER_05]: It was Robert McDonald and Bob Mata every day.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_05]: These anchors are attorneys and journalists by trade and they know better.

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So irresponsible.

[01:38:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I think there was, I have a lot of concerns about a lot of the way this case was covered.

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And I feel that a number of members of the general public were to be blunt.

[01:38:55] [SPEAKER_05]: They were lied to.

[01:38:56] [SPEAKER_05]: They were given false information about this case.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And like we're fans of court TV.

[01:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We like court TV a lot.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think when someone like Bob Mata is given that much airtime and that's not really vetted, it can lead to all sorts of bad situations.

[01:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly asks, will there be a book tour?

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So our book Shadow of the Bridge is going to come out hopefully in August.

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it would definitely come out in August.

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We got to write it.

[01:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we'd like to do a book tour.

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll try to make that happen.

[01:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We can come to your Barnes and Nobles and be super awkward.

[01:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But it'll be really cool to meet a lot of you.

[01:39:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's a strange position to be in and we don't know how anything works.

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never done this before.

[01:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Chrissy asks, do you guys think after the transcript of the trial comes out, we could maybe do a meet or greet or even a long live to go through the trial together?

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_05]: That would be a really long live.

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Because again, this is like 20 days long.

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that a live or like an ongoing hostage crisis, Christy?

[01:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't leave.

[01:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're only on day three.

[01:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: People are trying to like break out the window.

[01:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We can see.

[01:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We can see.

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of us has always been like reluctant to do anything with transcripts because it's like we already went and covered it.

[01:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, I'm sure that whenever that is released, there'll be a ton of discussions.

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: There might be time.

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there might be.

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And we at one time, before Nick McClellan did this case, he did another murder case that had some interesting moments in it.

[01:40:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And at one point, we have the transcript.

[01:40:39] [SPEAKER_05]: We're like, oh, wouldn't it be fun if we did a reading of this?

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And it just got really, really complicated.

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_05]: That's why you never saw it.

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Lydia said, are you enjoying the conspiracy theory about y'all running through the back door of the court on verdict?

[01:40:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, this shows you a lot about some people's rigor for truth and honesty.

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I've seen this.

[01:41:08] [SPEAKER_05]: The people posted a clip.

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_05]: There was apparently some sort of camera focused on the courthouse on verdict day.

[01:41:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And you can see Anya and I standing there.

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And then someone comes over and says something to us.

[01:41:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And then we rush off.

[01:41:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And so with no other information than that, people were saying, well, obviously someone came to sneak Anya and Kevin into the back door.

[01:41:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And as we've said many times, we did not go inside.

[01:41:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So if you paid attention, you would know that that was not true.

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And I can tell you what it was.

[01:41:42] [SPEAKER_05]: It was not interesting, but I can tell you.

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Right?

[01:41:46] Yeah.

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Somebody from one of the television stations wanted to interview us and then they weren't available at that time.

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_05]: They said, oh, we want to interview you a little bit later.

[01:41:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And we said, whatever.

[01:41:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And we go off.

[01:41:59] [SPEAKER_05]: And then they said, well, actually, we want to interview you right now.

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Right after this commercial break in.

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_05]: So we rushed over to do that.

[01:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just trying to support journalists.

[01:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Pay no attention to the big carpet that was being smuggled in through one of the back doors.

[01:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if we'd been in there, we would have talked about being in there.

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that would have been good.

[01:42:22] [SPEAKER_05]: The point of going to these hearings is to talk about what we see there.

[01:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, oh, no, we're standing outside.

[01:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Then, yeah.

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: People are so wild.

[01:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: They just want to believe, like, oh, yeah.

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We mission impossible our way in there.

[01:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're, like, hanging from, like, a harness to spy on the – it's just – people are so dumb.

[01:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I love stuff like that, though, because it's always really funny.

[01:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And they always seem to make Kevin and I have to be way cooler than we actually are.

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, like, it's always, like, they're undercover police.

[01:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Or they're, like, sneaking in and breaking through the back window.

[01:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Or, like, all this, like, ridiculous stuff.

[01:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, what – have you met us?

[01:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That would not work.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We'd immediately, like, trip over the alarm.

[01:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it would just be a whole incident.

[01:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren asks, I have to know.

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you still think the clients are involved?

[01:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Also, would love to know more about Diane Doolin.

[01:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Why did he testify about helping look for evidence in the crime scene and mention seeing sticks the day before interviewing Richard Allen?

[01:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Weird to include.

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you still think the clients are involved?

[01:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I guess – I mean, no.

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, from what we saw, like, it sounds like there was cell phone evidence putting both the clients at home that day.

[01:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing that always raises the eyebrow is the fact that Allen was in Peru that day in the Peru-Mexico area.

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're always kind of like, hmm.

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't feel like that's enough to really draw any conclusions.

[01:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to say no for now.

[01:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is one of those things where, like, if people brought me information, I'd be open to it.

[01:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm – I don't feel like –

[01:43:53] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll say this.

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_05]: There is not enough evidence on Klein's potential involvement to warrant any charges being filed.

[01:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's correct.

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_05]: That doesn't mean there is no such –

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Do the coincidences bother me?

[01:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Do I feel like I'm like, oh, yeah, he must be involved?

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: No, not at all.

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would lean against it at this point.

[01:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: As for –

[01:44:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.

[01:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Dan Doolin?

[01:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Was he testifying about looking for evidence of the crime scene and mentioning seeing the sticks the day before interviewing Richard Allen?

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if I remember.

[01:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't recall that, to be honest, Lauren.

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We might just be blacking something out that did happen, so I'm not saying you're wrong.

[01:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I just – I don't remember that aspect of it.

[01:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So, sorry.

[01:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Teresa said, it wasn't a thread.

[01:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a giant snack.

[01:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: See, one thing that all of you Patreons will – all you folks will appreciate, or at least people who were there prior to this,

[01:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: is that I once embarrassed myself because one of our wonderful patrons, I believe it was Tracy,

[01:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: commented about how she had once had to pepper spray a Roddy because it was about to attack her.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I read it as a rattler.

[01:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, wow, pepper spraying snakes.

[01:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I went on this whole extended, like, five-hour lecture about pepper spraying snakes for some reason.

[01:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it finally caught up with the comments, and it was revealed that I missed that up.

[01:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So whenever – when Brad Rosie posted up that big snake spreadsheet or PowerPoint presentation,

[01:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just immediately, like, fumbling for the pepper spray.

[01:45:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And boy, was that a dumb closing arc.

[01:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That was perhaps one of the dumbest things I've seen in court.

[01:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It was bad.

[01:45:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And you've seen me in –

[01:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: No, you're a very smart gentleman.

[01:45:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Cherie said, disappointed in the state's ballistic expert, she could have worked harder and smarter, in my opinion.

[01:45:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on that.

[01:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those –

[01:45:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought she was impressive.

[01:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought she did a really good job holding up on cross-examination.

[01:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: She was very unflappable.

[01:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd be curious about your sort of thoughts on the evidentiary part of that because, to me, that was something I struggled with.

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I could grasp DNA better than I can, sort of the mechanics of ballistics, to be honest.

[01:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: That's – I don't – like, that day, I was like, oh, my God.

[01:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm writing words, and I'm not – I'm struggling here.

[01:46:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie says, the new conspiracy theories are crazy.

[01:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They claim the jury – there was jury tampering because jurors got to call their families.

[01:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, gosh.

[01:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Rosie.

[01:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And the funny thing is that the people who were, like, the conspiracy theorists were also trying to, like, identify the jurors while this was all going on.

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's ironic that they're suddenly pearl-clutching about jury tampering.

[01:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, no, someone else tampered, then we weren't able to.

[01:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, like, ridiculous, obviously.

[01:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Jane says, the YouTubers believe – that believe he's innocent for clicks and giggles, whatever, but my concern is the rage they're feeling.

[01:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a worrier.

[01:46:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Jane, I'm not going to lie.

[01:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that at some point, if this continues, someone could get seriously hurt.

[01:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, some – you know.

[01:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're telling people, hey, all these people in Delphi and who are involved in the investigation are evil and they did an evil thing, I mean, you're basically asking for one of your unhinged followers to take action because they – it's not bad to do something against evil people, right?

[01:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's concerning to me, too.

[01:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I also am a worrier.

[01:47:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Just like Andy Baldwin.

[01:47:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Huh?

[01:47:30] [SPEAKER_05]: In the worrier, he kept on reporting to himself as a woman.

[01:47:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, he did.

[01:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He did.

[01:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember that.

[01:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Teresa said, do you think the prosecutors will talk to you for the book, Judge Gull?

[01:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even asking about the defense.

[01:47:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to ask everybody.

[01:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to ask everybody.

[01:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think Judge Gull is going to talk to us, but I would love her to.

[01:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We're certainly going to ask her.

[01:47:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely not possible.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But she's not going to do it.

[01:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to ask.

[01:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: She'd be sooner to probably throw us in jail at this point.

[01:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to ask everybody and hope they do.

[01:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I think –

[01:48:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we made up a list today of, what, 100 names?

[01:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've been very critical of the defense performance.

[01:48:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But that being said, I'd love to hear what challenges they had to face during this and

[01:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of maybe contextualize some of that performance.

[01:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like it would be great to get some of that.

[01:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And, I mean, we've heard from a lot of people that these are very good attorneys.

[01:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And, again, even if we've not been impressed with aspects of the defense, it would be great

[01:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to just kind of know more.

[01:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think sometimes when you're on the outside, it's easier to be like, what the heck

[01:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: is this?

[01:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're on the inside, it's like, maybe that's all we could do.

[01:48:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And both members of the prosecution team and members of the defense team were friendly

[01:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: to us at different times.

[01:48:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:48:40] [SPEAKER_05]: They say, hey, Kevin, hey, Anya.

[01:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's nothing personal.

[01:48:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, I would love to sit down with the defense, too, and just be like, hey, what

[01:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: was this?

[01:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And just because, again, easy on some level, we can be critical.

[01:48:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We can be Monday morning quarterbacks.

[01:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But if they might be able to tell us stuff of like, oh, here's what.

[01:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, OK, you were maybe.

[01:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a client from hell.

[01:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's fair to say that about Richard Allen at this point.

[01:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they had a client who really, really limited his options.

[01:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And to a certain extent, I understand elements of where the defense was coming from, because

[01:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: he kept on cutting off avenues that they could have gone down, I feel.

[01:49:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And that must have been very challenging to work with.

[01:49:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Lydia demands where were Richard Allen be housed until Sunday?

[01:49:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Still cast?

[01:49:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[01:49:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[01:49:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Let me scroll through here.

[01:49:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, wait.

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Ed said that the defense team should have definitely listened to you guys like the prosecution did

[01:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: during Murdoch.

[01:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It might have put on a different case.

[01:49:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Still lost with better.

[01:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of our criticism could have been accepted as constructive criticism because

[01:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's better to listen to people who are saying, well, I hear you.

[01:49:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But rather than people are saying, gee, gosh, you guys are the best defense daddies all the

[01:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: way.

[01:50:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that you're not going to get anywhere with like that doesn't add anything.

[01:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Teresa said, I want a mystery to me revival.

[01:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, Anya.

[01:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks a lot, Teresa.

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We recorded a new episode last night.

[01:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you guys plan this?

[01:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's so cringe.

[01:50:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But I appreciate the interest.

[01:50:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you looking at?

[01:50:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, somebody said.

[01:50:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the Frankenstein doodle.

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Somebody wants to see your Frankenstein doodle.

[01:50:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm looking through just a couple of your notebooks here and I'm not seeing it.

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll post a picture of it and the mediocre sharks.

[01:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not very good, but you know, they're in there.

[01:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I did mention them by name.

[01:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But they're not good.

[01:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't expect too much.

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But that Frankenstein guy.

[01:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's Frankenstein sponsor.

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Not too bad.

[01:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Clinton said he read the moral compass of the American lawyer in college for legal ethics

[01:50:50] [SPEAKER_01]: class.

[01:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Good read.

[01:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to read that.

[01:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: This one's interesting.

[01:50:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I love Scott Trow.

[01:50:55] [SPEAKER_05]: He writes very well about lawyers.

[01:50:57] [SPEAKER_05]: And I wonder if Scott Trow has a new novel coming out.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And if so, I wonder if it will be discussed on a future episode of a podcast.

[01:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We're pretty excited about it.

[01:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And Lydia also notes that that was a Jimmy Stewart movie she's never seen.

[01:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone watched Anatomy of a Murderer.

[01:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good.

[01:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Debbie says, come to Georgia.

[01:51:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We have great biscuits.

[01:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I bet.

[01:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I love biscuits.

[01:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[01:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you.

[01:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Teresa also shouted out my mediocre sharks.

[01:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: What was happening that day when I was doodling and being really unprofessional?

[01:51:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[01:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember.

[01:51:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was something very boring.

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Lydia asked, who is Brad Rosie holding hands and skipping out of the courtroom with?

[01:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Alan's sister?

[01:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Defense attorneys touch their clients way too much.

[01:51:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that was Alan's sister.

[01:51:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[01:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:51:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Heidi said for her, the van was the clincher for sure.

[01:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria asks, do you have any further research that you need to do for the book?

[01:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Will you attempt to get an interview with Richard Allen or Kathy Allen?

[01:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Will you interview the families?

[01:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And also the van was it for her too.

[01:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria, we're going to try to talk to everybody.

[01:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And for me.

[01:52:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Basically, no one has been able to give an on the record interview for a couple of years now because of this gag order.

[01:52:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And we want to have on the record information from as many people as possible.

[01:52:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that fair to say?

[01:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, if you can think of them, we're going to try to talk to them.

[01:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have access to anybody and you have their ear, we'd love to let them know that we're trying to make this as all-encompassing as possible.

[01:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:52:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Christy said, how could they never find Richard Allen's phone or at least phone info from the carrier?

[01:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good question, Christy.

[01:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know how those technological investigations work in terms of what you can find if you can't, if you don't have the phone.

[01:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But it certainly seems unusual.

[01:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I know Clinton said that for him, the phone was definitely a big moment of not having the 2017 phone, that being mysteriously missing from Richard Allen's house.

[01:53:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Missy Ann said you should find time to watch Hidden True Crime.

[01:53:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. John is worth the time.

[01:53:20] [SPEAKER_05]: We will.

[01:53:21] [SPEAKER_05]: They're very impressive people.

[01:53:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Him and Lauren, it seems like, just come at these cases from a place of respect.

[01:53:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like they tackled it like students of the case.

[01:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They were like, that's how we try to be.

[01:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We try to be students where we're not just assuming, but we're just like, what's going on?

[01:53:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And they had that curiosity that I liked.

[01:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Amanda said, who was the nicest YouTuber you met there?

[01:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren.

[01:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren, because we met her there.

[01:53:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there are a lot of nice YouTubers that we've kind of talked with in the past, but we knew them already and we'd already met them.

[01:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So I would have to say Lauren.

[01:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And her team was great.

[01:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Just awesome people.

[01:54:01] Let's see.

[01:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I had to get out of the comments because they're all squinching.

[01:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Lydia says, what do you think will be released to the public from the trial?

[01:54:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably a good amount of the exhibits.

[01:54:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And at some point, either through an appeal or through people just paying for it, I imagine the transcript will be released.

[01:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Stephanie says, thank you guys for such great coverage.

[01:54:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Stephanie.

[01:54:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Hope you find cases to cover with prosecutors podcast.

[01:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[01:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:54:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They're awesome.

[01:54:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just the coolest.

[01:54:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And they are just as wonderful behind the scenes as they are on the show.

[01:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca says, hidden true crime definitely talked about trying to be sway by Bob Mon on one of their Patreon episodes.

[01:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That does not surprise me.

[01:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen said, will you two be filing about public access issues?

[01:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably.

[01:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like a lawsuit or?

[01:55:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, we did back earlier in the case.

[01:55:07] [SPEAKER_05]: We did file into the case because Judge Gold was not releasing as many papers and as many filings as she should.

[01:55:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And so we actually filed into the case.

[01:55:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I think some people forgot this and said, hey, these other documents should be released.

[01:55:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And so one day, a little bit a year ago, like a hundred and some documents were released because of that.

[01:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So as far as like, I mean, like, I don't know what we would do now.

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But if there are more public access issues that arise, like in the.

[01:55:41] [SPEAKER_05]: We can always find something to complain about.

[01:55:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we can.

[01:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We're very good at that.

[01:55:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Cynthia says, been watching you for years, but your Delphi coverage made me join Patreon.

[01:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome.

[01:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Cynthia.

[01:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.

[01:55:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope this hasn't been too much of a horrific disappointment.

[01:55:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[01:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Pan said, how did the Delphi community react to Richard Allen's spouse?

[01:56:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't, we don't know.

[01:56:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly in the court, everybody was very gracious to her.

[01:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't see any problems there.

[01:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I would hope like in a situation like this, it's like, I hope people would give a lot of grace.

[01:56:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly said, have you done anything nice for yourselves to relax and unwind after trial yet?

[01:56:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you plan to?

[01:56:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully at some point we'll do something.

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Right now we're just kind of processing.

[01:56:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we have a, yeah, it's, it's, it's odd.

[01:56:40] [SPEAKER_05]: It's odd.

[01:56:41] [SPEAKER_05]: It's odd.

[01:56:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:56:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a, I feel like a different person.

[01:56:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So please, I know that sounds crazy, but I just leave like a lot of, like a lot of, a lot of, a lot of nice experiences with people, but also a lot of faith lost in humanity.

[01:56:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's weird.

[01:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we'll try to do something.

[01:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna said, I went to a conference a few months ago and met someone who taught at Purdue and was familiar with Delphi.

[01:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and at the time there was a rumor that the Allens were split.

[01:57:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I will say this, uh, for, for, for, uh, for our reporting.

[01:57:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, that rumor certainly was going around, but we did get a statement from Kathy Allen from her attorney where we were able to clarify that she's, she's saying that they're not split and she's standing by him.

[01:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and certainly her, her conversations with reporters or her brief statement to reporters as she left indicates that as far as she's concerned, this isn't over.

[01:57:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So that would almost indicate to me that she, that, uh, may have just been a rumor, but I don't know.

[01:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but I, that, but we just reported what we were given.

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Kelly said, if Doug Carter wrote a forward, the innocenters would pick it apart for hidden messages.

[01:57:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be the shack all over again.

[01:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[01:57:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The shack.

[01:57:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Kristen loves it.

[01:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Aw.

[01:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Kristen.

[01:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Kristen.

[01:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's so sweet.

[01:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks is very happy.

[01:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Love you guys too.

[01:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, seriously.

[01:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.

[01:58:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Tracy said, Anya and Kevin keeping it together for the sake of the children.

[01:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay.

[01:58:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Please pass the microphone, dear.

[01:58:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, can you tell Kevin to pass the mixer?

[01:58:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know.

[01:58:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Pass the mixer?

[01:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's our mixer.

[01:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The roadcaster.

[01:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[01:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the parts.

[01:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, we, we, we were very lucky because I think we, I don't know, we've, we, we, I

[01:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: think we relied on each other more during this experience rather than got, got mad at each

[01:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: other.

[01:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that fair to say?

[01:58:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was, it was more of like, Kevin was my like life raft.

[01:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He was very, very, very supportive and sweet.

[01:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Even when I was having like a nervous, uh, breakdown, uh, one of the days where I was

[01:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: just like, I don't want to see this.

[01:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to see this stuff.

[01:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but, uh, you know, it was, uh, yeah, but he, he's a very supportive and loving.

[01:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: As are you.

[01:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thanks.

[01:59:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see.

[01:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'm looking at your questions.

[01:59:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Sadie says, I think you should use Sadie Johnson as an editor.

[01:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So Sadie, I don't, I don't know how it's going to work because we do have, it is a publisher.

[01:59:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So we do have an editor, but we would at some point, uh, love to get some feedback from you

[01:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and sort of, uh, look into it.

[01:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause we want this book to be as good as it can be.

[01:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and do, do right by the case.

[01:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if that makes sense.

[01:59:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I want it to be really good.

[01:59:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So we may be bothering you soon.

[01:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca says, do you think a lot of Delphi locals were afraid to speak honestly about whether

[01:59:54] [SPEAKER_01]: they thought Richelle was guilty?

[01:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[01:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good question, Rebecca.

[01:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I get the sense that not a lot of people knew him very well.

[02:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if people were scared.

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's fair to say that people in Delphi have been, have been, uh, collectively traumatized

[02:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: by this case in the sense that people are aware, like, Hey, if I go out and run my mouth

[02:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and YouTube comments and it comes back to me, that could make my life miserable.

[02:00:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And also I think certainly online, sometimes people have been reluctant to say they think

[02:00:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Richard Allen is guilty because some of the pro Richard Allen people, some of the Richard

[02:00:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Allen fan club people are so enamored of him and so crankish that they threaten and attack

[02:00:36] [SPEAKER_05]: anyone who says something they perceive as being negative against Richard Allen.

[02:00:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think some people were afraid to speak up because of that, because they didn't want

[02:00:44] [SPEAKER_05]: to be subjected to that sort of abuse.

[02:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's, that's, that's true to a certain extent for a lot of people, even people

[02:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: not from Delphi actually, because this has been a very vitriolic group here.

[02:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna says, I really hope you cover the Idaho for Brian Koberger case when it goes to trial,

[02:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the way people are fawning over him.

[02:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So eerily reminiscent about how people fond over Bundy.

[02:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I fear the pro defense nonsense will be similar to this case, if not worse.

[02:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We need more honesty and transparency and true crime reporting like y'all.

[02:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna, first of all, thank you so much.

[02:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And second of all, uh, we would like to cover Idaho more.

[02:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's, um, unfortunately a case where we see the same exact thing happening as

[02:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you do.

[02:01:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And if other people have other cases that they think we should cover, please let us know.

[02:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I want, I want there to be like sanity restored to true crime.

[02:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't need to be this way.

[02:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's possible to ask thoughtful questions that may question the guilt of somebody or,

[02:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: or criticize the police or prosecution.

[02:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's possible to do that without slipping down the, like, I'm going to have a poster of

[02:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: this guy in my room creepiness.

[02:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just seems like we can have one without the other.

[02:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important that we do actually.

[02:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's important to me.

[02:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Wendell says, did the trial ruin the song?

[02:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys for anyone else.

[02:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Wendell, what do you think?

[02:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Awful.

[02:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I, I was, when they said that, I was like, I was just sitting there like, I'm losing my

[02:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: mind.

[02:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I, I just can't be real.

[02:02:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Can you imagine hearing that and knowing that in a few hours you're going to have to go

[02:02:16] [SPEAKER_05]: and sit in front of a microphone and repeat that to people?

[02:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, life isn't real at that point.

[02:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I was, there were a couple of moments like that during trial.

[02:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, what the heck am I seeing right now?

[02:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Or hearing?

[02:02:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Lynn says we could podcast about Indiana's football team.

[02:02:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Lydia has an interesting idea.

[02:02:34] [SPEAKER_05]: We can podcast about Zeppo Marks.

[02:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Viva Zeppo Marks.

[02:02:37] [SPEAKER_05]: It sounds like people want to hear about Zeppo Marks.

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be our new signature case.

[02:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[02:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly says, Wendell, it's going to be the new intro song for you.

[02:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Murder sheet.

[02:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Get a, give it, get Kevin Tyler Greenlee on it, on a, on a, on a tasteful kind of dark

[02:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: version of it.

[02:02:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Rosie's concerned that bookcases are not behind us.

[02:03:01] [SPEAKER_05]: We're in a different room today.

[02:03:02] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[02:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we should have had it be like, we'd all collapse.

[02:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[02:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie, where we moved downstairs for the time being, but we'll, the bookshelves will be

[02:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: back at some point for sure.

[02:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Maria said, were there sticks on the girls just an effort to conceal the bodies?

[02:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you at liberty to discuss the staging without being disrespectful of the victims?

[02:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, when we do, uh, I think we can discuss it cause it was all at trial in the sense

[02:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that, um, you know, I, I, I personally think that it seemed to me like someone was starting

[02:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to cover them with sticks and then may have given up.

[02:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, I think cause there are not a lot of sticks on them, but like it, it's one of

[02:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: those things where I'm like, that doesn't really bother me because like it, it doesn't,

[02:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: it, they always just seem like sticks to me.

[02:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't seem like specifically.

[02:03:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And to me, I, I think I may have said this a while ago when we saw the lead crime team

[02:03:56] [SPEAKER_05]: pictures, to me, there was nothing about those sticks that had any inherent meaning.

[02:04:03] [SPEAKER_05]: In other words, that if you have the opinion today that the, the sticks were there in a

[02:04:10] [SPEAKER_05]: pattern and you saw the picture, you think, oh yeah, that was deliberate.

[02:04:14] [SPEAKER_05]: But if you have the opinion, no, it was random.

[02:04:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And you showed, you saw the picture.

[02:04:18] [SPEAKER_05]: You say, yeah, the picture proves it.

[02:04:20] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think that the image of the sticks would just basically confirm whatever you already

[02:04:25] [SPEAKER_05]: think.

[02:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And I, I, I don't, uh, I love my cramp.

[02:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: No, and I think that's fair.

[02:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's absolutely fair.

[02:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Missy and ask possible topics collab Lincoln's assassination with vintage villains.

[02:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love vintage.

[02:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They're great.

[02:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Allison.

[02:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we talked to her about what are we talking about recently?

[02:04:43] [SPEAKER_04]: John Dillinger.

[02:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: John Dillinger.

[02:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my.

[02:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That was really fun.

[02:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: She's super cool.

[02:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, yeah, Lincoln's assassination.

[02:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: What a time.

[02:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: One of my little interests.

[02:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Tracy says we need a meet and greet.

[02:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But you guys are everywhere.

[02:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you all move to Indiana, please?

[02:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We could all be wacky neighbors with each other.

[02:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[02:05:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe like everybody go to Hawaii.

[02:05:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Some reason we talk a lot about Hawaii.

[02:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder why Kevin keeps talking.

[02:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, we'd love to do meet and greets.

[02:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I, maybe if we get our stuff together and do a book tour, we can kind of figure out where

[02:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: y'all are.

[02:05:19] [SPEAKER_05]: We did a live show in Kindleville.

[02:05:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And then I think my hometown, Columbus, Indiana.

[02:05:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.

[02:05:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Somebody said come here and do a live show.

[02:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That'd be cool.

[02:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think we could figure something out.

[02:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that would be really cool to meet some of you guys in person.

[02:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and we, we'd dig it.

[02:05:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Columbus has a place called Ye Olde Fish House.

[02:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Ugh.

[02:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: How about Biscuits Across America podcast?

[02:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds delicious.

[02:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Christina, did you meet Nancy Grace?

[02:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: If so, what was your impression?

[02:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Miss you guys and Anya.

[02:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know you had such long, beautiful hair.

[02:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Christina, thank you.

[02:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all in a messy bun right now.

[02:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, I really appreciate that.

[02:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, uh, yeah, we did meet Nancy Grace.

[02:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: She was, uh, she was there to cover, uh, one of the mornings and she was super nice.

[02:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she didn't make a big deal about coming or anything.

[02:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She was not like, oh, I'm Nancy Grace.

[02:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let me cut the line.

[02:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: She just, she seemed really nice and normal.

[02:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had a nice kind of quick conversation with her, but, uh, very respectful.

[02:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, she, she left after a little bit.

[02:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I think she had a, I think she basically was like kind of stopping over on her way to something

[02:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: else.

[02:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, but yeah, I, she was super nice.

[02:06:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I would concur.

[02:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I had an embarrassing moment in front of her actually.

[02:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I, I, there was a spider that kept on like, like going down and then up.

[02:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya doesn't like spiders.

[02:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really care for spiders.

[02:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're, they're important, but I don't, I don't, I don't want to deal with

[02:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: them.

[02:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want them in my space.

[02:06:50] [SPEAKER_05]: But you're willing to concede a spider is important.

[02:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, they're, they're, they're God's creatures.

[02:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I tip my hat respectfully from a distance.

[02:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen you tip your hat to a spider.

[02:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Tip of the cap.

[02:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, m'lady.

[02:07:02] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a spider and it scared you in front of.

[02:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I must've looked insane.

[02:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I was like, like, like, but yeah, hopefully, hopefully she didn't notice.

[02:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[02:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going, cause we're squinching again.

[02:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: How about a crowd source funding for the transcripts?

[02:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We can have people sponsor pages and have them all mailed to one address.

[02:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[02:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe.

[02:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[02:07:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Rosie wants to see that episode about public access and the judges team.

[02:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin's going to fight everyone in Allen County, except the jurors and the alternates.

[02:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[02:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we, I think it would be probably worth doing something on the public access just to

[02:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of, it might be good to like break out certain topics afterwards to kind of like

[02:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: just kind of have a, have a kind of a finding final conclusion there.

[02:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Christina says, how far away do you live from Delphi?

[02:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Where do you stay?

[02:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: How was your stay?

[02:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Eat any good bacon?

[02:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I had some good bacon at one point.

[02:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like bacon.

[02:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't eat pork.

[02:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And how far away do we live from Delphi?

[02:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a bit, like over an hour?

[02:08:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe 90 minutes.

[02:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: 90 minutes.

[02:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And we stayed in a couple of places.

[02:08:11] [SPEAKER_05]: We stayed in like three or four different places.

[02:08:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Including the hotel we stayed at in Fort Wayne.

[02:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So we kind of were jumping around a bit, but it was good.

[02:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a good stay.

[02:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was, it, it was, it was.

[02:08:22] [SPEAKER_05]: We stayed in Lafayette.

[02:08:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[02:08:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And we also stayed in what looks like Monticello, but it's actually pronounced Monticello.

[02:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Missy Ann said, who tried to bully you and lied on you?

[02:08:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Can we say that person apologized to you later?

[02:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I will say, I want to say, it's important to say the person did apologize a few, a few days later.

[02:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I really appreciated that.

[02:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to make it a whole thing.

[02:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I, one thing that was funny about this is that somehow because it's Delphi and because YouTubers are involved and because

[02:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: somehow this incident turned into like in line, not like, not after, like before we talked about it, somehow this turned into.

[02:09:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I think after.

[02:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think after we talked about it.

[02:09:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[02:09:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Anya mentioned it on the, on the podcast.

[02:09:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And then she's surprised that in the coming days, she, everybody's coming up to her.

[02:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Who knifed Anya?

[02:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like early, it was like Anya got in a karate fight with people.

[02:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it was not.

[02:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: No one thought that.

[02:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: People were acting like Anya's fighting outside.

[02:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, I wasn't outside.

[02:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I was living my life.

[02:09:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I think people understand that.

[02:09:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[02:09:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Obviously Anya does fight and behave like that when I'm not around.

[02:09:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I'm keeping things.

[02:09:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

[02:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You're like a little Lord Fauntleroy in the frigging court while I'm dealing with crises.

[02:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: When I'm gone, you fall apart.

[02:09:41] [SPEAKER_05]: You're like you're fighting strangers in line.

[02:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, it, I don't, it's, we don't need to go into that because she did apologize and it's all cool.

[02:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, I'm not, I'm not, it was, it was just, I think when, when tensions are high, things happen.

[02:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's all I'll say.

[02:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Mal said, can't stay.

[02:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Gotta get my girl to bed.

[02:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll catch up later.

[02:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We love Mallory.

[02:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Mallory.

[02:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[02:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for swinging by.

[02:10:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's all go to Hawaii, says Teresa.

[02:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Hawaii crossover murder sheet universe event.

[02:10:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're getting caught up in the comments.

[02:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We actually are getting caught up.

[02:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[02:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly says there is a Hawaiian themed tiki bar here in India.

[02:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That might be more affordable.

[02:10:32] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a Hawaiian themed brunch place in Indianapolis.

[02:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: There is.

[02:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really good.

[02:10:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[02:10:38] [SPEAKER_05]: We're there today.

[02:10:39] [SPEAKER_05]: It's called A to Z.

[02:10:40] [SPEAKER_05]: So I love them.

[02:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Shout out.

[02:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Kelly said Anya joined a gang.

[02:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: That wouldn't that be like a, like, not surprising, like subplot in this podcast somehow.

[02:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya learns a lesson about why you shouldn't join gangs.

[02:11:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Anya joins a gang.

[02:11:03] [SPEAKER_05]: It's more than she bargained.

[02:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly we're like a horrible sitcom for some reason.

[02:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, I feel like more like relaxed having done this because I feel like the beginning

[02:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of this, I seemed really stiff.

[02:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But now I'm just having a delightful time thinking about all this stuff.

[02:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to say, I really appreciate you guys.

[02:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's fun to hang out with you.

[02:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya's a badass.

[02:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Sue, I appreciate that.

[02:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think, I think I could get my, I'm not, I'm not.

[02:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Jane said, let's book a murder.

[02:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: After she cruised to Hawaii.

[02:11:37] Yeah.

[02:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Anya fought ninjas, said Ed.

[02:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: If you guys want to spread this around, I mean, it doesn't bother me.

[02:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the kind of misinformation I like to say.

[02:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Something where I'm like a cool fighter.

[02:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, far, far from reality.

[02:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not around.

[02:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: You just go crazy.

[02:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going nuts.

[02:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You're the only stabilizing influence.

[02:12:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just relaxing, uh, upstairs in court having refined conversations.

[02:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what?

[02:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's your fault for leaving me alone.

[02:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you should have recognized that, sir.

[02:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelly says that would be the after school special that I would tune into.

[02:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie said, how about a murder sheet?

[02:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Murder Mystery Cruise.

[02:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you guys ever done like one of those murder mystery train rides?

[02:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They can be wild.

[02:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never done it.

[02:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I've actually never been on a cruise.

[02:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to lie.

[02:12:32] [SPEAKER_05]: You used to write about.

[02:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I used.

[02:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I wrote about cruises during the pandemic when people were stuck on cruises.

[02:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't.

[02:12:38] [SPEAKER_05]: She still worked for, uh.

[02:12:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't feel like I have.

[02:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really.

[02:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I have a proper understanding of the cruises.

[02:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh.

[02:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya's gang sounds like an after school program says change.

[02:12:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Or it sounds like a Saturday morning show where Anya's trying to talk to the kids.

[02:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, gang members.

[02:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's so ridiculous.

[02:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: See, it stinks because, like, I'm so unhinged on the podcast.

[02:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone could totally see a subplot with me joining a gang.

[02:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But if I said that about you, they would not think that.

[02:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think.

[02:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm respectful.

[02:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin would never.

[02:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd never do it.

[02:13:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd never do it.

[02:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be a gang of scholars going to the library or something.

[02:13:21] [SPEAKER_05]: What are the cases that we follow?

[02:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh.

[02:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Jenna asked what other cases.

[02:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh.

[02:13:26] [SPEAKER_05]: She mentioned the Suzanne Simpson case, which is an interesting case.

[02:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We're kind of coming up for air with Delphi now.

[02:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh.

[02:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Although I'm sure there'll be a lot of coverage once the gag order ends.

[02:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Um.

[02:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I.

[02:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been covering Idaho.

[02:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Not to the same depth as Delphi.

[02:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would love to get caught up with that.

[02:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And sort of go forward with that.

[02:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Um.

[02:13:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Here's a potential preview of coming attractions.

[02:13:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Today, we get an email from someone saying, uh.

[02:13:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I'm the lead detective of this case.

[02:13:55] [SPEAKER_05]: A person just confessed.

[02:13:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh.

[02:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't give any too many details.

[02:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we don't.

[02:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Cool your jets there, sir.

[02:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But there might be some cool ones coming up.

[02:14:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[02:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.

[02:14:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Person just confessed.

[02:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing?

[02:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting.

[02:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting case.

[02:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody said that we don't.

[02:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to fight because I have a battleship.

[02:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And that, uh.

[02:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Agnes Gang is the one with the battleship.

[02:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Says Teresa and Lydia.

[02:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just gonna say.

[02:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Cruise.

[02:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Cruise on the battleship.

[02:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: On USS Kane.

[02:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what we're thinking?

[02:14:29] [SPEAKER_03]: To Hawaii?

[02:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a battleship.

[02:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: As you know, my family is one of the most powerful families in New York.

[02:14:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Should you explain that to people?

[02:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: People.

[02:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: People are listening?

[02:14:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Because they're not.

[02:14:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And people may not know that.

[02:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Seriously.

[02:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Context needed.

[02:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So, a bunch of nuts on the internet.

[02:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Once.

[02:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: When we were doing our reporting on the so-called due process gang.

[02:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: One of their big theories was that my family could afford to buy a battleship.

[02:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I guess that's something the old moneyed people do now.

[02:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[02:15:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Because they're so incredibly wealthy.

[02:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're so incredibly wealthy.

[02:15:05] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're not.

[02:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And my family is one of the most powerful families.

[02:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're not.

[02:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[02:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure.

[02:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, no offense, family.

[02:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Love you guys.

[02:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think we'd all agree here that that's not the case.

[02:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So, that is what that joke is about.

[02:15:19] [SPEAKER_05]: They're just ordinary Joes.

[02:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They're great.

[02:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I love my family.

[02:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're not the most powerful family in New York.

[02:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They're really just nice people.

[02:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.

[02:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[02:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my gosh.

[02:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I could go undercover in an Odinus gang, said Wendell.

[02:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[02:15:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we went to.

[02:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen, we went to a mystery train.

[02:15:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Kristen mentions the mystery train.

[02:15:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And Anya mentioned that because we went to.

[02:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It was actually the same day.

[02:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember when everyone was acting like there was an arrest in Delphi?

[02:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Because some random YouTube.

[02:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.

[02:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Facebook page posted that there was.

[02:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They were like, you know, 20 police cars spotted in the Delphi area.

[02:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It turned out there was a Purdue football game going on.

[02:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So, great job, everybody.

[02:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But we spent that car ride to the train on the phone with all of the journalists in the Indianapolis area.

[02:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Who were calling us and saying, was there just an arrest?

[02:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: My assignment editor emailed me.

[02:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, no, we don't know.

[02:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what?

[02:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[02:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it turned out there was not.

[02:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So, that's my mystery train story.

[02:16:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, and then we went on a mystery train and had an awful time.

[02:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But it wasn't.

[02:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't be mean.

[02:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't be mean to the mystery train.

[02:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Gosh.

[02:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Anne said, in case you were wondering, we will not tire of more Delphi content as you both decompress and process.

[02:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Anne.

[02:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I figured there might be opportunities to interview people or get more context or do more reporting.

[02:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you can anticipate more of that, I imagine.

[02:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully, no one will talk to us, which I guess is always possible.

[02:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, that would be something to think about.

[02:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And Nicaela notes, I would love to hear y'all cover Asia Degree again.

[02:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a case where I would love to loop back in and see if there's been any further developments.

[02:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I know it kind of seemed to be going there for a while.

[02:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes, unfortunately, in cases, you can see that spurt of activity and then nothing happens.

[02:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's always really frustrating.

[02:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Sue says, yes, but not the Kane mutiny.

[02:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Great movie.

[02:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Also, yeah.

[02:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Who would dare mutiny against me, though?

[02:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see.

[02:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And Teresa, I love it when a plane comes together.

[02:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya's gang cruises to Hawaii on Battleship Kane.

[02:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like mad lips.

[02:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like something out of one of Kevin's nightmares.

[02:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you'd have a nightmare where I was unreasonably trying to get together a battleship cruise.

[02:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And you'd be like, Anya, we can't do this.

[02:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And then...

[02:17:47] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of nightmares about you.

[02:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He has a lot of nightmares where I...

[02:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: He has nightmares specifically about me having ridiculous schemes.

[02:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the nature of our relationship.

[02:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm always offended by it.

[02:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But it is pretty delightful.

[02:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't find the Frankenstein.

[02:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll find the Frankenstein for you guys.

[02:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to see Frankenstein.

[02:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Frankenstein's monster.

[02:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And the sharks.

[02:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to...

[02:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll find them.

[02:18:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Are we done?

[02:18:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we're caught up.

[02:18:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think we've been talking to the good people.

[02:18:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We've been testing their patients now for a long time.

[02:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That is a long time.

[02:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But we really enjoyed this.

[02:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you all for coming and bearing with us being ridiculous.

[02:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And...

[02:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Where are you going?

[02:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It looks like he won't talk.

[02:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[02:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: He's like searching for something in the comments.

[02:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm scared.

[02:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[02:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We had a really delightful time.

[02:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And just know that it really means a lot.

[02:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: If again, if you're new...

[02:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of how our lives are.

[02:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We just sort of respond to comments and answer questions.

[02:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And like that's kind of...

[02:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[02:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a fun time.

[02:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a fun time.

[02:19:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Wendell has a question.

[02:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Wendell has one question.

[02:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Now that the trial is over.

[02:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Any plans on another read sheet?

[02:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

[02:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Heck yeah.

[02:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to...

[02:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We just have to figure out what we're going to read.

[02:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Um...

[02:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So...

[02:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned.

[02:19:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe something about Zeppel and Marx.

[02:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Or...

[02:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Or...

[02:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to...

[02:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to continue to do that for sure.

[02:19:22] Um...

[02:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And then...

[02:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: As Cynthia says...

[02:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Now that I know about...

[02:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya's gang.

[02:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You two storming the back of the courthouse on verdict day.

[02:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Makes sense.

[02:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[02:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It was actually us and a bunch of guys.

[02:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like with toothpicks in their mouth.

[02:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like flipping coins.

[02:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Who uh...

[02:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Who bullied the uh...

[02:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The deputies.

[02:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Letting us...

[02:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Letting us break in there.

[02:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm imagining like an old timey gang.

[02:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Um...

[02:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[02:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're new.

[02:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We really...

[02:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It really uh...

[02:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It really means a lot that you're here.

[02:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And we hope you enjoyed it.

[02:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And um...

[02:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Just you know...

[02:19:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you Donna.

[02:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Aw Donna.

[02:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[02:19:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Donna says thank you so much for my first live.

[02:19:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Love it.

[02:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We're really glad you enjoyed it.

[02:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And uh...

[02:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah.

[02:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We just really appreciate you being here and supporting us.

[02:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been...

[02:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been really fun.

[02:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is like such a nice catharsis for us to talk to you.

[02:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Finally.

[02:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: After all of this time.

[02:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And uh...

[02:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Studded jacket for Anya.

[02:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[02:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna start a girl gang.

[02:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: This is so exciting.

[02:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: See?

[02:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: This is what Patreon does.

[02:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you come in.

[02:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't think you're in a gang.

[02:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Then you're part of a gang.

[02:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And uh...

[02:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a...

[02:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a whole thing.

[02:20:25] [SPEAKER_05]: It's only wearing an exploitation movie from the 60s.

[02:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[02:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that.

[02:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that for me.

[02:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Um...

[02:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[02:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Take care of yourselves.

[02:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Um...

[02:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: With Patreon.

[02:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, if you're new.

[02:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know if you have any issues or questions.

[02:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Murdersheet at gmail.com.

[02:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh...

[02:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Just feel free to message us about anything.

[02:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You can also message us on Patreon.

[02:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll probably see that first.

[02:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And um...

[02:20:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're still catching up.

[02:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We are catching up.

[02:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: If you sent us a message on Patreon recently, I'm so sorry.

[02:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But we will get back to you.

[02:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh...

[02:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully next week.

[02:20:56] Um...

[02:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But uh...

[02:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[02:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you all so much.

[02:20:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.

[02:20:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Really do appreciate it.

[02:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And just have a great rest of your evening.

[02:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I never know.

[02:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I never know how to end it.

[02:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But...

[02:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But just...

[02:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: This is how I am on phone calls too.

[02:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like...

[02:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Love you.

[02:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.

[02:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: God bless.

[02:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Take care.

[02:21:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm gonna slide out.

[02:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin's gonna slide out.

[02:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh...

[02:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[02:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again.

[02:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And just uh...

[02:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Just...

[02:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a great one.

[02:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[02:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[02:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye-bye.

[02:21:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Shade.

[02:21:22] [SPEAKER_05]: If you have a tip,

[02:21:24] [SPEAKER_05]: concerning one of the cases we cover,

[02:21:25] [SPEAKER_05]: please email us at

[02:21:27] [SPEAKER_05]: murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[02:21:31] [SPEAKER_05]: If you have actionable information

[02:21:33] [SPEAKER_05]: about an unsolved crime,

[02:21:35] [SPEAKER_05]: please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[02:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon,

[02:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that's available at

[02:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: www.patreon.com

[02:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: slash murdersheet.

[02:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to tip us a bit of money

[02:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: for records requests,

[02:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you can do so at

[02:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: www.buymeacoffee.com

[02:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: slash murdersheet.

[02:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We very much appreciate any support.

[02:22:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

[02:22:06] [SPEAKER_05]: who composed the music for The Murder Sheet,

[02:22:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and who you can find on the web at

[02:22:10] [SPEAKER_05]: kevintg.com.

[02:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners

[02:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: about a case we've covered,

[02:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group

[02:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: on Facebook.

[02:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting,

[02:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: so we're not on social media much.

[02:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We do try to check our email account,

[02:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but we ask for patience,

[02:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: as we often receive a lot of messages.

[02:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening.

[02:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for sticking around

[02:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[02:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Just as a quick post-roll ad,

[02:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we wanted to tell you again

[02:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: about our friend Jason Blair's

[02:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[02:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This show is phenomenal.

[02:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether you are interested in true crime,

[02:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the criminal justice system,

[02:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: law, mental health,

[02:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: stories of marginalized people,

[02:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: overcoming tragedy,

[02:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: well-being,

[02:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: like he does it all.

[02:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a show for you.

[02:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: He has so many different conversations

[02:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: with interesting people,

[02:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: people whose loved ones have gone missing,

[02:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: other podcasters in the true crime space,

[02:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: just interesting people

[02:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: with interesting life experiences.

[02:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jason's gift, I think,

[02:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is just being an incredibly empathetic

[02:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and compassionate interviewer,

[02:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: where he's really letting his guests

[02:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: tell their stories

[02:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and asking really interesting questions

[02:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: along the way,

[02:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: guiding those conversations forward.

[02:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I would liken it to like,

[02:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you're kind of almost sitting down with friends

[02:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales

[02:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that you wouldn't get otherwise,

[02:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because he just has that ability

[02:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: as an interviewer to tease it out

[02:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and really make it interesting

[02:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: for his audience.

[02:23:45] [SPEAKER_05]: On a personal level,

[02:23:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Jason is frankly a great guy.

[02:23:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[02:23:49] [SPEAKER_05]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[02:23:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And so it's fun to be able

[02:23:54] [SPEAKER_05]: to hit a button on my phone

[02:23:56] [SPEAKER_05]: and get a little dose of Jason

[02:23:57] [SPEAKER_05]: talking to people whenever I want.

[02:23:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a really terrific show.

[02:24:01] [SPEAKER_05]: We really recommend it highly.

[02:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[02:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've already met Jason

[02:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: if you listen consistently to our show.

[02:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[02:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been on his show.

[02:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a terrific guest.

[02:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I say this in one of our ads about him,

[02:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but I literally always,

[02:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh yeah,

[02:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when Jason said this.

[02:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That really resonated.

[02:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I do quote him

[02:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: in conversations sometimes,

[02:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: because he really has a good grasp

[02:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of different complicated issues.

[02:24:25] [SPEAKER_05]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[02:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[02:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[02:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That was so right.

[02:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[02:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, he does a range of different topics,

[02:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but they all kind of have the similar theme

[02:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of compassion, of overcoming suffering,

[02:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of dealing with suffering,

[02:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[02:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: There's kind of a common through line

[02:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: of compassion and empathy there

[02:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that I think we find very nice.

[02:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And we work on a lot of stories

[02:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that can be very tough,

[02:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[02:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is something that almost can be like,

[02:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're kind of feeling

[02:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a little burned out by true crime,

[02:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff

[02:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[02:25:07] [SPEAKER_05]: It's compassionate.

[02:25:09] [SPEAKER_05]: It's affirming.

[02:25:10] [SPEAKER_05]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[02:25:14] [SPEAKER_05]: People, Jason is a very intelligent,

[02:25:18] [SPEAKER_05]: articulate person.

[02:25:19] [SPEAKER_05]: This is a smart show,

[02:25:21] [SPEAKER_05]: but it's an accessible show.

[02:25:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[02:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and he's got a great community

[02:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that he's building.

[02:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[02:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We're fans of the show.

[02:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: We love it.

[02:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And we would strongly encourage you all,

[02:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: just check it out.

[02:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Download some episodes.

[02:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen.

[02:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll understand

[02:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: what we're talking about once you do.

[02:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyways,

[02:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you can listen to

[02:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: The Silver Linings Handbook

[02:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: wherever you listen to podcasts.

[02:25:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[02:25:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Very easy to find.

[02:25:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.