The Delphi Murders: The Contempt Ruling, The Fourth Franks Motion, A Request for Further Sanctions, and More

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[00:02:57] start a project today. Content warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:03:05] So there have been a lot of filings recently in the ongoing Richard Allen case, of course the

[00:03:11] Delphi Murders case. We had been holding off on covering them because we were waiting for the

[00:03:17] contemporary link to come down and that has come down too so we have a lot to cover today

[00:03:23] and we will. And also just a quick programming note because of this particular episode is not

[00:03:30] going to be a cheat sheet this week but there would definitely be one. I have an excellent

[00:03:34] authority there would be a cheat sheet next week but for this week this episode is going to focus

[00:03:40] on the new Delphi filings. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:03:46] I'm an attorney and this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on

[00:03:51] original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[00:03:57] And this is the Delphi Murders. The contempt ruling, the fourth Frank's motion, a request for

[00:04:04] further sanctions and more. There's a lot of filings that we're going to talk about today.

[00:04:53] Yes that title that Anya wrote the title for this episode that was a real mouthful.

[00:04:58] Yeah I always want to be accurate I never want to be too flashy and like ooh you know but

[00:05:02] I feel in this situation it's right. I said let's just call it more filings. Yeah people would know.

[00:05:10] Lots of filings. Let's start out with the fourth Frank's notice. Tell us about it. Well I mean

[00:05:16] this is number four. This is you know I mean we're getting into fast and furious franchise

[00:05:22] levels here where we're just seeing again and again and again they're going back to the

[00:05:28] Frank's you know kind of strategy. Frank's gets into the defense arguing the police have lied

[00:05:38] or omitted something and therefore evidence should be dismissed based on that. So it's a

[00:05:44] perfectly valid strategy. What kind of nags at me with this one a little bit and Kevin let me

[00:05:51] know if you think I'm being fair. It's just kind of interesting. Let's set aside any of the

[00:05:57] factual claims. Let's set aside any of the validity of the claims. It just seems odd to me that we're

[00:06:02] on number four. This has never worked and they keep doing it when it seems like maybe they could

[00:06:09] you know they've gone through other methods to get other evidence suppressed. That seems

[00:06:14] like maybe that would be worth it but with the Frank's it just seems like this is not

[00:06:20] really working out for them and they and yet they keep doing it so I'm just kind of

[00:06:24] interested. I mean obviously there's benefits of making a record but again and again in response

[00:06:30] filings from the state it's been kind of called into question whether or not this even raises to

[00:06:37] Frank's or whether it even raises to improper behavior on the part of police so I guess it's

[00:06:42] it's kind of weird for me to see this again. Number four. Number four. Mambo number four.

[00:06:49] I just I don't know. Why would why would they do this?

[00:06:54] I guess I'm trying to create a record. They spent a lot of time and energy in this one still

[00:07:00] talking about Turco still saying we should have been told about Professor Turco's name

[00:07:07] a few days or perhaps a few weeks earlier than we were. I also thought it was interesting

[00:07:13] regarding Turco can you read paragraph 5b. Absolutely quote Purdue professor Jeffrey

[00:07:21] Turco wrote in a report provided to unified command that the markings referred to the

[00:07:26] configuration of the branches on the girls bodies constitute an inscription inspired by

[00:07:31] Norris Runes or modern recreations thereof is quite plausible. So that seems to be

[00:07:39] a bit of a step back because earlier certainly the impression I believe they were trying to create

[00:07:45] was that Turco supported the idea that this is pretty definitely runes and now they're saying Turco

[00:07:51] is saying well it's plausible that maybe it could be. It's rune inspired. That's a yeah I mean

[00:08:00] that's a pretty giant leap backwards frankly but I mean even even if they don't intend it in

[00:08:06] that way I guess I wouldn't want to bring up the guy that I trotted out there in filings and acted

[00:08:13] like this guy is my star guy. He's my rune guy he's going to come out and talk about this

[00:08:19] and then have him be like you're you're totally lying about what I said the state police had

[00:08:24] it right you have a completely wrong what are you doing. I wouldn't want to mention

[00:08:28] his name again in this whole thing so I guess it sort of confuses me at why they are.

[00:08:34] I mean this was all an unnecessary own goal don't remind us about it.

[00:08:40] I mean I saw Turco in this and I like flinched it's like what are they doing.

[00:08:46] It was surprising the heart of this one seems to be about the phone before we get to that

[00:08:52] I think you highlighted that you thought you saw some stuff in here that gave us some

[00:08:56] little details about the night of the disappearance. Yeah the night of the

[00:09:00] disappearance of the girls so they go missing in the afternoon of February 13th 2017. The search

[00:09:06] is ongoing a lot of people may not realize but the search as far as our understanding went on

[00:09:12] late late late into the night unofficially it was officially called off at midnight but that

[00:09:16] didn't mean people left they were still looking it just for legal reasons it was unofficial.

[00:09:22] And we learn in this document that Steve Mullen the then Delphi police chief who

[00:09:27] is now an investigator for Nick McLean's Carroll County prosecutor's office contacted Sergeant Mitch

[00:09:34] Blocker of the Indiana State Police apologies to this man if I sent his name wrong at 9pm on the

[00:09:42] night of their disappearance and he asked for quote precise location information from a cell

[00:09:49] phone using some of their more technical assets and then the defense says that the last

[00:09:54] communication with the sergeant was prior to 1am on February 14th I just kind of

[00:09:59] and this doesn't matter really for what we're talking about but it just it was interesting

[00:10:02] to me because it does show that there was ongoing efforts through the night to figure out where

[00:10:08] they were this is before it was even known to be a murder obviously. Yeah so that is an

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[00:13:19] so they say that uh mullen talked to someone with the state police and they indicated that they'd

[00:13:27] heard from AT&T that the phone which we're assuming is Liberty Germans phone was as of

[00:13:35] 544 p.m either not in the area or not in a working condition and then they say well we've

[00:13:44] gotten some information since then the indicates that the phone was pinging at different times

[00:13:54] throughout that night and following morning and so this suggests that things aren't adding up

[00:14:01] and maybe the prosecution's theory is inaccurate is so first of all before I even move on from

[00:14:09] there is that your understanding of what their argument is yes and I'm going to say this caveat

[00:14:15] I think this may be the most unclearly written Frank's motion we've gotten yet

[00:14:20] yes that's why I'm having to ask you to make sure I'm interpreting this correctly I think that

[00:14:24] that at times I'm I'm I'm truly baffled at how this is written because it is a to me a

[00:14:30] departure from some of the more clear clear language that we've had in past Frank's motions

[00:14:35] and it kind of feels like a rush job frankly well and we know it was because some of this phone

[00:14:40] information they say they just got last week and so then they rushed this out so my first reaction

[00:14:47] to this is yeah it does seem like a rush job and number two we know in the past that they have

[00:14:54] made some mistakes about technology more particularly when they were did a legal document

[00:15:02] about geo fencing it turned out they didn't really understand the topic and so that made me wonder

[00:15:09] is it possible they don't really understand how pinging a phone works and I think that is possible

[00:15:17] and I say that with the caveat it's also possible that I don't understand how pinging a phone

[00:15:22] fair we are not technical wizards over here at the murder sheet but I did do a bit of research

[00:15:30] online Kim commando among others seems to indicate that an iPhone when an iPhone battery is dead for

[00:15:43] you and me the battery is not completely dead so there's still a little bit of power in there and

[00:15:51] so because of that even if you're not able to use your phone and the battery is gone

[00:15:56] find my phone features still work and a phone can still be pinged and so if my understanding of that

[00:16:03] is correct the fact that the phone is pinging throughout the night does not contradict with

[00:16:12] the idea that the phone is no longer in a usable state earlier in the afternoon

[00:16:20] and just to be clear Kim commando is a radio host she hosts the Kim commando show as well as

[00:16:26] consumer tech update and digital life hack she's she focuses on consumer technology so that's why

[00:16:33] we're citing her she's not you know this is something that she you know her shows kind of

[00:16:37] delve into so I mean listen there seems to me we don't understand technology

[00:16:43] we know in the past the defense hasn't understood technology it's possible that

[00:16:47] they're on to something really big here and it's a big deal but it's also possible that they just

[00:16:50] don't know what they're talking about because that's happened before so I think this is something

[00:16:54] I'd put a pin in and and see where it goes yes I have a little bit of skepticism

[00:17:02] we'll see what happens as I say it doesn't really seem like there's necessarily a contradiction

[00:17:09] between those two things I completely agree is that essentially all to the I mean that's

[00:17:15] pretty much the crux of the Frank's motion that is pretty much the crux of this fourth Frank's motion

[00:17:21] and of the four I would say this one seemed the weakest yeah which is like shocking that it beat

[00:17:27] out some of the other ones frankly you know I mean but we are like weeks away from trial

[00:17:33] what's the next one the next one is accused reply to the state's response to motion to

[00:17:38] compel and sanctions and requests for the state of Indiana to be further sanctioned

[00:17:43] for providing false information in its response that was a lot so long title on your loves the

[00:17:52] long titles basically though what this one is about is about Todd click yeah or that's

[00:17:58] that's what a big part of it is about it's a lot about Todd click now let's fix just because I

[00:18:02] like to introduce people again I know you probably know but Todd click is the former assistant police

[00:18:07] chief of rushville indiana he is essentially a star witness for the defense he is one of the three

[00:18:14] investigators who looked into the odynist angle early on it's unclear at this time the sort of

[00:18:20] level of his role in this but essentially he was working with state police trooper Kevin Murphy and

[00:18:29] the FBI counterterrorism task force member and terraho police officer Greg Farensey

[00:18:34] on this angle so we know that they came into it first they seemingly brought him into it

[00:18:39] what his role was what exactly I'm sure that'll become more clear at trial but he's very important

[00:18:44] for the defense and the defense has been saying oh they had a bunch of information from Todd click

[00:18:51] that they didn't really give to us until much later and in response the prosecution said

[00:18:57] we're actually the stuff that Todd click gave us was essentially summaries and stuff and repetition

[00:19:05] of information that was contained in police reports which in fact had already been provided to the

[00:19:10] defense so they already had all of this and in this filing I thought it was interesting

[00:19:18] the defense does not really refute McLean's assertion that much of the click information

[00:19:25] was contained in other reports they do say that there the Todd click apparently did have some

[00:19:33] other information that maybe the prosecution did not have and according to this filing the prosecution

[00:19:41] received this information on or about August 30th 2023 and then they turned that information over

[00:19:50] to the defense on September 8th 2023 and so that is a relatively quick turnaround for that

[00:19:59] bit of information yes especially given that they're all drowning in discovery so yeah that

[00:20:07] yeah I guess also with click at one point the defense says quote it is hard to imagine

[00:20:14] a more exculpatory type of letter than one in which an investigator is courageous enough to

[00:20:19] detail that he and two other investigators believe the prosecution may have accused the wrong man

[00:20:24] clicks fearlessness also involved going to the lengths of hiring a lawyer to proactively

[00:20:29] steer the prosecution toward the actual killers and away from possible injustice against an

[00:20:33] instant man but of course a person's a person's opinion is not exculpatory evidence well I mean

[00:20:38] listen if if Todd click wrote them a letter saying I am in possession of a video that shows

[00:20:45] Richard Allen did not go to the trails that day he just made that part up so you know that that

[00:20:51] could be exculpatory if Todd click writes them a letter saying I my the vibe I'm getting is that

[00:20:57] he's not guilty that doesn't matter who cares and like I don't know what the letter says so we

[00:21:02] can't assess it but it would have to reach a level to be exculpatory exactly now again if

[00:21:10] Todd clicks entitled to his opinion he's entitled to come in and say here's what I think happened

[00:21:16] it's not it's not saying that he's not important or that he won't be important for the defense

[00:21:21] that all can be true but it's just saying that what the defense is the defense's problem I think

[00:21:28] in this case has been often a mismatch between what they're asking for and what actually happened

[00:21:33] you know something can be good for the defense and and not really need to result in any relief

[00:21:40] in this situation they're specifically asking for sanctions against the state for things that

[00:21:47] just when you're reading their own filing don't sound like the amount to that

[00:21:51] you know and you could say like look it's great that you got Todd click now you can have a sort

[00:21:55] of a law enforcement expert who's speaking for your case but you don't that doesn't necessarily

[00:22:01] mean that the prosecution is guilty of hiding discovery especially since a letter where you're

[00:22:06] stating your opinion is not some exculpatory piece of evidence especially I mean if they

[00:22:12] the prosecution had hid all the odinous stuff well maybe you can make an argument but

[00:22:17] they already had this stuff so already have this stuff yeah I don't I don't get it Kevin

[00:22:23] to me there's a subtext to a lot of this from I believe the subtext is that the prosecution

[00:22:34] law enforcement have you want to characterize them that they at least in their minds thoroughly

[00:22:41] investigated this particular angle relatively early on and decided there was nothing to it

[00:22:47] and moved on so if they were slow to respond to clicks letter or things like that

[00:22:55] perhaps it was because there was nothing in there they didn't already know and hadn't

[00:22:59] already considered it's a matter of the prosecution and the law enforcement not believing it's a

[00:23:08] good theory is not the same thing as them covering it up you know they're allowed to say

[00:23:12] we don't feel that there's probable cause here we don't think these men are guilty

[00:23:17] we've essentially cleared them and this is a tenuous theory at best that doesn't mean

[00:23:23] they didn't consider it and I'm not really seeing a lot of evidence at this point that the

[00:23:27] defense is putting out that they were negligent in how they got to that point you know yeah I don't

[00:23:35] I don't it just feels like the defense is continuing to like just slam against a brick wall

[00:23:40] here and it's I just I think sometimes it's better to play things closer to the vest because then

[00:23:45] you can bring out a click as kind of a nice oh here's a good witness instead of like

[00:23:52] at this point we've really picked apart a lot of the click stuff and and it's frankly just seem to

[00:23:57] raise more questions as far as what the defense is even saying and there's more turk turk oh

[00:24:03] sorry Mary were we done with clicks should we go to turko now there's a little bit of turko yeah

[00:24:07] why not throw turko in why not throw the guy who said you lied into all of your recent filings

[00:24:12] that's a great idea wouldn't you just be like never talk about that man again it's a yeah

[00:24:22] yeah I don't think I would go near that topic again if we can say maybe there was a misunderstanding

[00:24:28] between the defense and turko that's something just don't go back there uh shocking to me that

[00:24:33] they're still trying to make an issue of him and um you know I think what they're alleging here is

[00:24:42] like basically that the prosecution has been really late in handing over evidence which can be a

[00:24:48] real issue discovery issues can derail a case if a prosecutor improperly conceals exculpatory evidence

[00:24:56] from the defense in a case that can get dismissed overturned it's a it's a very egregious issue

[00:25:06] but when when the defense is outlining some of this it sort of becomes

[00:25:11] frankly faintly ridiculous because the defense themselves in previous filings has said things

[00:25:15] the effect of like well we may have not gotten them or we might not just be able to find it but

[00:25:21] we did get them and the prosecution should hold our hands throughout the whole thing and so the

[00:25:26] issue with making late stage turnovers from the prosecution is some sort of gotcha is that

[00:25:31] mcleland has made it clear in his filings that he has been frequently doing the defense's

[00:25:35] jobs for them by holding their hands through the discovery process giving them stuff that

[00:25:40] they're specifically asking for even though he doesn't have to do that if he's already given it

[00:25:43] to them and helping them find stuff so it's like he's going above and beyond here and they're still

[00:25:51] complaining about it it just I think it makes them look ridiculous like they don't have a grasp

[00:25:54] of their own discovery granted it's an enormous amount of discovery but you know what maybe focus

[00:26:00] on that instead of like talking to youtubers constantly that might be an idea when should

[00:26:06] read paragraphs 24 and 25 quote the defense posits this question if it is complicated

[00:26:12] time-consuming for the prosecution to dive into 26 terabytes of information and requires searching

[00:26:17] through several files for just a few documents or pieces of evidence can be found and this is the

[00:26:23] prosecution's evidence then how can the prosecution expect the defense to locate the items it

[00:26:27] seeks without assistance from the prosecution the defense did not organize the discovery

[00:26:32] prosecution organized the discovery during the defense's first tenure on the case then

[00:26:37] reorganized slash formatted it for the defense's second tenure on the case

[00:26:41] Richard Allen and his lawyers have only reached out to the prosecution after they had spent several

[00:26:45] hours searching for documents throughout the state of india and has convoluted disorganized

[00:26:49] an often untimely discovery dumps okay so they're basically admitting like they just don't want to

[00:26:56] they just don't know where anything is this is not the prosecution's problem

[00:27:01] and i think it's completely outrageous part of the reason that part of the things that

[00:27:07] uh 20s are paid for is to uh familiarize yourself with the case this is why they give you all

[00:27:13] the big bucks okay this is why this is this is what you're literally supposed to do

[00:27:18] they have large staffs at this point helping them they have an extra lawyer they should be

[00:27:22] they should know where and i'm not even saying this because i'm offended on nick

[00:27:27] mclean's behalf i'm offended on richard allen's behalf how do you not know where stuff is at

[00:27:32] this point we are weeks out from trial you know you have had months i'm sorry i know they got

[00:27:38] kicked off that must have disrupted things for them so i mean in that case i understand there

[00:27:43] was a period where they were certainly behind the eight ball on this but we are they're back

[00:27:48] now and they chose to go for a speedy trial even though it's very clear to me that they

[00:27:53] don't know where anything is at this point that there's there's still like surprises and and that

[00:27:58] is not where you want to be going into an important trial like this where your your client's life is

[00:28:04] on the line in the sense that he could go to prison forever if you mess this up

[00:28:09] and you know what you know how you mess things up you don't know where anything is and you

[00:28:12] in your too busy courting youtubers to actually figure it out i mean i i i would be concerned about

[00:28:20] the state of preparation for the trial at this point everything has just been a red flashing

[00:28:27] this is going to be a problem as far as i'm concerned and i mean there's no point in sugar

[00:28:34] coding at this point because it's it's may first this thing is supposed to go on in may 13th

[00:28:39] you know and and the recent filings do not give me much confidence here

[00:28:44] and you know what richard allen deserves strenuous strenuous lawyer if i were richard allen or someone

[00:28:51] close to richard allen and i wanted a trial i would want the trial to be with a vigorous

[00:29:01] prepared defense and i have concerns about that and i say if he wants a trial because we get

[00:29:09] all of these accounts of him confessing over and over again and if a man is confessing to a terrible

[00:29:17] crime with such frequency at some point you need to ask yourself does this person want a trial does

[00:29:25] this person want to plead it out i mean i'm genuinely concerned about that from the

[00:29:32] perspective of we've talked about this but william libredo his former council has talked in the media

[00:29:40] about how richard allen is you know was was telling him and his co-counsel um robert scrimman

[00:29:49] that he thought he was gonna have to pay for them if they continued on which was not true

[00:29:55] we mean they were public defenders so was he getting bad information from somebody that

[00:30:00] essentially mislead him into wanting baldwin and rosy back and if so who was giving him that

[00:30:05] information or another possibility is he he didn't think that he was just trying to be polite in

[00:30:12] firing libredo and scrimman essentially it's not you guys i just don't have to pay for it and

[00:30:16] just didn't realize how ridiculous that sounded so i mean i don't know but that is really

[00:30:21] concerning to me because if he's in a position where he wants to just have this over with

[00:30:26] because that's his wishes those should be respected and i if we if there's a normal case i would assume

[00:30:33] that the the attorneys and the client were completely on the same page this is not a normal

[00:30:38] case there's been concerning some signals like that that have happened that make me wonder i mean

[00:30:45] do you need some sort of shadow attorney appointed to just check in with him and say this is what

[00:30:50] you want right like they're doing what you want yeah the number of confessions is sounds like someone

[00:30:58] who has isn't being heard necessarily for one reason or another maybe they're not being heard

[00:31:02] because they're innocent and totally mentally ill and they're not being treated or maybe they're

[00:31:06] not being heard because people people with other agendas want a different outcome what's the next

[00:31:14] one motion for pretrial hearing so this is actually a title that's pretty self-explanatory

[00:31:21] yeah i love that so one thing that jumped out at me is that this date for the trial was set on

[00:31:29] march 7th and between march 7th and april 25th there were no communications from the court

[00:31:36] to the parties as to any matters associated with the procedural aspects of the jury trial

[00:31:41] so for that six seven weeks ever long it is the judge is not reaching out to mcleland or rosie and

[00:31:51] bald went to ask about what sort of parameters they need for a trial and they're not reaching

[00:31:56] out to her that's a little surprising because this case is so complicated if i were an attorney

[00:32:05] on either side of it if i was the judge overseeing it i would want to sit down and talk with everybody

[00:32:11] and try to figure out okay how many witnesses are we going to be having how much time does the defense

[00:32:18] need in order to fairly present their case how much time does the prosecution need to

[00:32:23] fairly present their case uh how much time should we set aside at the end of all of this for each

[00:32:30] side to have uh rebuttals if possible it would seem like it would make sense for someone to have

[00:32:37] initiated that process to start having these conversations this this filing creates the

[00:32:44] impression and maybe this is wrong but it creates the impression that this trial length of two two

[00:32:52] and a half weeks was just chosen arbitrarily and i think one of the big problems with the

[00:32:59] administration of this case by judge gull is that often we don't see a record being created

[00:33:08] and i would really like there to be some record at some point indicating that the choice for

[00:33:16] the trial length and such was thought out with relevant information at the time could that be

[00:33:24] established in the next hearing that they're going to have over this possibly a record yeah i mean

[00:33:30] that sort of feels like what it might be for gull says uh that she doesn't know how long the

[00:33:39] prosecution is going to take to present their case and it says in here that the state's original

[00:33:47] witness list has 118 witnesses and 93 exhibits the defense's original list contains approximately

[00:33:55] 71 witnesses and so that's also an issue have you ever been at a dinner party where someone

[00:34:04] comes early and sees a bunch of great desserts and just eats them all and doesn't leave anything

[00:34:08] for anyone else what i think i think have you ever been to one i think in theory uh the defense

[00:34:18] is is raising the issue that something like that could happen here than in other words oh we just

[00:34:23] get two two and a half weeks for this what if the prosecution takes a week and a half

[00:34:30] to go through their 118 witnesses that does that mean that we as the defense

[00:34:36] just get a few days then because of that what about rebuttal uh these concerns are they seem

[00:34:44] valid because you really need to work this stuff out in a way that's fair for all you really want

[00:34:50] to make sure that the prosecution has time to present what they feel is important and you want

[00:34:55] to be sure that the defense has time to present what they feel is important you don't want to

[00:35:01] make those decisions arbitrarily in addition to that right now there is some contention the defense

[00:35:10] obviously wants to talk about odinism at this trial because it is their contention that the

[00:35:16] crime was actually committed by odinists and not by richard allen and the prosecution and

[00:35:23] judge goal have said well we don't really think that you've proven a connection between odinists

[00:35:30] and this crime so maybe you shouldn't be allowed to do that and so if that isn't adjudicated prior

[00:35:39] to the trial what the defense can and cannot present that means the limited time for the trial

[00:35:48] would have to be further uh used because at different times you would have to stop the trial

[00:35:55] or at least stop the public part of the trial have the jury taken out and then have uh

[00:36:03] basically the prosecution and the defense argue about these issues and perhaps we might see witnesses

[00:36:10] being brought on just to say well this is what you would have said in front of a jury if judge

[00:36:15] goal had permitted you to so that a record would be created okay and so they're saying

[00:36:20] so we really need to settle these things before the trial especially if you want the

[00:36:24] trial to happen in two two and a half weeks that seems reasonable that seems reasonable to me too

[00:36:31] that's reasonable because it's about creating a record it's about okay uh odinism may be

[00:36:38] hampered or not fully allowed in the trial but let's allow future courts to check that out

[00:36:44] and see if it was a good decision or not uh they're also very skeptical that the defense is uh

[00:36:51] I should say is very skeptical that the trial can be done in two two and a half weeks

[00:36:58] and they reference a previous case judge goal had where there were 140 witnesses

[00:37:05] and the defense says would that particular trial last at 34 days and we think

[00:37:12] that a similar length would be required for this trial and that would be 34 business days so if

[00:37:19] you're only meeting in uh five days a week that would be almost seven weeks yeah or close to two

[00:37:26] months that sounds like a a long time but um I guess you know you want to ask for more than you

[00:37:33] want I guess and I would share the concern that you could go through close to 200 witnesses in

[00:37:41] two weeks that seems like a lot yeah for two weeks it it it seems like maybe what they're

[00:37:49] asking for is a lot but two weeks maybe too little maybe somewhere in the middle I don't know

[00:37:56] but it seems reasonable to raise some of these concerns because they ultimately deal with

[00:37:59] logistics that everyone wants to work well for this case uh one interesting thing about this

[00:38:05] filing is that they include most of an email from judge gold the judge goals sent to the attorneys

[00:38:13] I think when you look at it it's pretty obvious that a big chunk of that has been redacted oh

[00:38:17] yeah huge huge chunk but uh there's also a fair amount of it included we've we've heard relatively

[00:38:24] little from judge gold in this case and so this is an opportunity to hear some of her words

[00:38:28] do you want to read it why don't you read it I'll read it and just note I'll know where

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[00:39:58] for more details hunday there's joy and every journey so this is an email from sunday april 28th

[00:40:05] 2024 at 11 15 a.m and it seems to be going to baldwin mcleland latrell james latrell

[00:40:17] jennifer deener those are two other members of the prosecution team not jennifer deener i guess

[00:40:24] oh jennifer oj and i think it's sharon deener so this is from drudge gall quote good morning

[00:40:32] i will answer your questions as follows redacted for a while quote the intent is that the jury

[00:40:40] selection will take three days court will be in session in allen county beginning at 8 30 a.m

[00:40:45] and concluding when we conclude for the day you've all been provided with the sub-panelists

[00:40:50] broken into mourning and afternoon sessions i will forward to you under separate email the

[00:40:55] seating charts for courtroom one and strike sheets we will be using for selection let the

[00:41:01] selected jurors will be sworn in upon selection in order to not speak or communicate with anyone

[00:41:05] about the case and to conduct no research on the case they will further be ordered to return to

[00:41:10] the allen county courthouse on thursday morning with their luggage and personal effects which

[00:41:13] will be searched by law enforcement officers to ensure they're bringing nothing electronic or

[00:41:18] illegal once that is complete they will be transported to their hotels by my staff the

[00:41:24] order i referenced above contemplates an invitation to the media to meet with me in the carol

[00:41:30] county courtroom thursday afternoon so that they can take photographs of the empty courtroom and

[00:41:34] b-roll footage of the courtroom for their stories and broadcasts and to perceive their press credentials

[00:41:39] this case was said as a speedy trial at the request of the defendant for may 13th through 31st

[00:41:45] 2024 that is the length of the trial not more or less when the order was issued no not one

[00:41:51] attorney notified the court that the length of the trial was insufficient in fact it is consistent

[00:41:55] with the previously scheduled length in january 2024 i intend to start court every morning by 9 a.m

[00:42:01] and recess for the day around 5 to 6 p.m court will be in session on saturday perhaps for the

[00:42:08] entire day if necessary court will be in recess on sunday to allow the jurors and parties to rest

[00:42:13] i've tried death penalty and live without parole cases in this amount of time

[00:42:17] all of them with multiple victims i am unaware of how many witnesses the prosecution

[00:42:22] intends to call nor on how long their case will take to present the defense is claiming it will take a

[00:42:26] couple of weeks to present this case its case i am unsure what exactly the defense intends to present

[00:42:32] i'm quite familiar with the law regarding third party perpetrators and unless the defense can

[00:42:37] provide a nexus between any alleged third party perpetrators and the charged crimes

[00:42:41] those allegations are unsupported and will be inadmissible please be prepared to present your

[00:42:46] cases timely have your witnesses available quickly and promptly i look with this favor

[00:42:51] on counsel attempting to manipulate the presentation of evidence by timing witnesses poorly

[00:42:56] that conduct will not be permitted the jurors time is valuable especially since they're sequestered

[00:43:00] and away from their homes families and jobs please respect the sacrifice the jurors are

[00:43:04] making judge go uh any comments on that you were just move on to the next one um

[00:43:11] you know it'll be interesting to see how all this goes i guess this way i don't know what's

[00:43:18] the next filing all right the next filing in the list is i guess would be motion for leave of court

[00:43:29] to subpoena third party records again not necessarily a title that gives away much but what this is is

[00:43:36] that nick mcleland wants to have recordings of richard allen's phone calls from prison now

[00:43:44] what's really interesting about this is you're like well yeah he made incriminating statements to

[00:43:49] his wife and mother on a recorded phone call in westville but mcleland wants all of allen's phone

[00:43:55] calls and this is a quote and these these would be a subpoena to a company called via path technologies

[00:44:01] which i guess is a contractor with the indian department of correction so it would be the one

[00:44:07] holding all of these i guess recordings so the quote is quote any and all phone calls

[00:44:12] made by inmate richard allen while he was housed at westville correctional facility and wall bash

[00:44:16] correctional facility both of which are part of the indian department of corrections and uh quote

[00:44:22] during his incarceration richard allen made several phone calls from the two facilities during some

[00:44:27] of those phone calls he made statements that the state intends to use a trial as evidence in

[00:44:31] the case the phone calls are kept by a third party party via path technologies they're the

[00:44:36] keeper of the records for the phone calls made by inmates housed in the indian department

[00:44:40] of corrections so there's more than one phone call if there's one at least one from wall bash valley

[00:44:48] as well as the westville one we already knew about so this raises the issue of yet more

[00:44:55] incriminating statements slash confessions from richard allen yeah that's that that does not

[00:45:03] bode well for him if there's anything to that uh next one next document do it what is it all right

[00:45:11] it's the defendant's response to state's motion in limine and request for hearing

[00:45:18] so yeah what is so there's some duplication here again they're saying well basically

[00:45:26] we think there should be a hearing to discuss this motion in limine stuff instead of waiting

[00:45:31] until the trial okay that's the basic just and that will out be grouped into may 7th i believe

[00:45:36] that's what the may 7th one is yeah that's what may 7th is so may but it will they do other things on

[00:45:41] may 7th or is it pretty much just this i will uh look while you uh keep on talking so there will

[00:45:47] be no awkwardness no i think that's a that's a ship that sailed for our show a long time ago

[00:45:54] i think the last thing though before we get into i think what we're gonna conclude with is

[00:45:59] defendants notice of submission of supplemental witness and exhibit list to the state so this is

[00:46:05] the defense saying here's another witness list and what we're gonna use as exhibits now this is filed

[00:46:12] in a way that the witness list does not it is is not appearing to the public or anything like

[00:46:17] that so we don't know who's on there with the witness list and that will be something

[00:46:21] we find out later defendants motion for pretrial hearing and states motion in limine set for

[00:46:27] hearing in the allen superior court may 7 2024 okay so there you go that's what we know

[00:46:34] so the final thing is we got uh judge gull's ruling on the contempt big picture is that she

[00:46:44] did not hold uh rosy and bald one in contempt although she certainly uh is critical of their

[00:46:54] behavior i'm gonna read this because it's short and i think it would be good for people to sort of

[00:46:59] hear it read it quote the court having had this matter under advisement following a hearing

[00:47:06] conducted on march 18 2024 and having reviewed the evidence admitted at the hearing the court

[00:47:11] did not review any evidence that was offered but not admitted the arguments of counsel and the

[00:47:15] briefs and memorandum submitted by counsel now finds that the state proved by a preponderance

[00:47:21] of the evidence that the defense council was sloppy negligent and incompetent in their handling

[00:47:27] of discovery materials council failed to properly secure evidence and discovery material in this

[00:47:32] matter council negligently allowed their discovery outline to be sent to an individual

[00:47:37] unrelated to this matter brandon woodhouse who then disseminated that information to the public

[00:47:42] council further allowed their discovery materials to be compromised by westerman who in turn

[00:47:47] provided the information to forson and cohen council is described westerman both as a criminal

[00:47:52] and a valued consultant and confidant despite this court's findings of sloppiness negligence

[00:47:58] and incompetence the state is required to prove that counsel's conduct was willful and intentional

[00:48:03] beyond a reasonable doubt for the court to find counsel in contempt as the state has not met

[00:48:08] that burden the court declines to find them in contempt of court for violating the protective

[00:48:13] order issued february 17 2023 regarding discovery the state has also alleged that defense counsel

[00:48:20] violated the gag order issued by the court on december 2 2022 defense council issued a press

[00:48:26] release on december 1 2022 the release contained statements that are potentially violative of the

[00:48:32] rules of professional conduct as the defense counsel's counsel correctly argues in his post

[00:48:36] hearing brief the gag order was not yet issued as such the court declines to find counsel in

[00:48:42] contempt of court as no order was in place to the extent that the press release violated the rules

[00:48:47] of professional responsibility the trial court has no jurisdiction to enforce those rules as

[00:48:52] required by the rules of professional responsibility the trial court will therefore send a copy of this

[00:48:56] order and the press release to the office of judicial and attorney regulation executive

[00:49:01] director adrian myring for that office to enforce the rules or determine the council's

[00:49:05] ethical misconduct dated april 30 2024 frances seagull special judge carol county circuit

[00:49:12] carol county indiana and quote so no no contempt and what do you make of that

[00:49:20] certainly she's critical and certainly she's saying well maybe someone else should look

[00:49:24] at this instead of me but uh yeah no contempt incompetent sloppy uh contempt didn't get

[00:49:34] there beyond a reasonable doubt didn't get the what what cinches is that it sounds like is

[00:49:42] andrew baldwin standing up on camera and saying you know what we should do today

[00:49:48] leak this stuff all over the place you need that intent and to be clear we don't have that

[00:49:53] no no one no one does it basically you can't just have smoke you need fire and so i find it

[00:50:00] interesting i know that a lot of more of the i guess virulent pro defense crowd as far as the

[00:50:07] online contingent of delphi followers goes is very very anti-gull there's this perception that she's

[00:50:13] out to get the defense attorneys and is you know doing this and that i mean this sort of does fly

[00:50:21] in the face of that ongoing theory it seems like because one would think that somebody who is just

[00:50:28] purely out to get a party in this case would use this opportunity to get them yes right right

[00:50:37] i wonder if she has an eye on that to a certain degree an eye on appeals she might kind of like

[00:50:45] clear clear the pathway for this trial basically the trial is what matters not whatever grievances

[00:50:50] are happening here yeah certainly even though she doesn't find them in contempt uh no one likes

[00:50:57] to be told their work is sloppy and incompetent basically you're terrible at your jobs but did

[00:51:02] you do something that i can find in contempt no not with the evidence presented so it's definitely

[00:51:09] a blow to their reputations i think but it's not it's not the same as you know you purposely did

[00:51:17] this i mean that's what it seems like you'd need to prove intent well it's been an interesting uh

[00:51:25] uh flurry of documents coming out recently hopefully this helped you kind of kind of go

[00:51:31] through them i think kevin and i find it helpful to talk to each other about the stuff beforehand so

[00:51:35] hopefully you all feel it's helpful to kind of hear from us and just kind of go through them one by

[00:51:40] one we obviously have been you know opinions on on different things that we share with you but

[00:51:44] you don't have to agree with us you know we have your own opinion and and certainly that's

[00:51:49] in a complicated case like this there's so much room for disagreement that it's it's definitely

[00:51:54] it's good to to do that to kind of go back and forth but i think we're just going to be looking for

[00:52:01] what's next at this point right kevin that's right and it's not the next thing is a hearing

[00:52:06] next week and uh a trial the week after there we go thanks so much for listening thanks

[00:52:12] thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of

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