The Murder of Josette Wright: Her Sister Speaks Out Against Bone Valley: Part Two

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] I'm Anya and today we will talk with the sister of a murdered girl, a girl whose case was just covered on Bone Valley's fifth season.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00] Content warning, this episode contains discussion of the rape and murder of a young girl.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_01] Last episode, we introduced you to the Kate of Josette Wright. This 12 year old girl was raped and murdered in 1994 in Carmel, New York.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00] Josette's older sister Shelly is speaking out now for a reason, namely the release of the fifth season of the podcast Bone Valley. In this second part of our conversation, Shelly will outline the evidence that she feels still points to Andrew Krivak and Anthony DePippo in her sister's case. She'll also talk about how the loss of Josette and the traumatizing endless trials and slanted media coverage has affected her and her family.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01] Shelly will continue to address claims made in Bone Valley. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01] And this is the murder of Josette Wright. Her sister speaks out against Bone Valley. Part two.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00] What was some of the evidence that convinced you that these men were guilty of this horrible crime against your sister?

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_02] The people in the van corroborated everyone else's stories and they all gave eyewitness statements separately, independent of one another. And they all basically said that the facts of what happened the night my sister died and was brutally murdered were very similar. Some details weren't the same, but they were basically the same timeline. So in addition to their eyewitness statements, which I wouldn't believe they would ever make for any reason.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02] The jewelry in their van that shouldn't have been there was kind of very telling to me that they why was she in there? She was there. And I don't even know if they knew that the jewelry was there because the rings were rings, but the earring was so small and the fact that they found in the van. I think that was pretty amazing.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01] Tell us about that jewelry in particular. So what do they find? What? Why is it tied to Josette and what does it mean to you?

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02] One of the rings Josette was wearing was a fake diamond ring style and it was kind of large on her. She was a petite person. She was five feet tall. She was about 100 pounds. She was a very small person. The ring didn't really fit her. So she had it. I guess it would kept falling off her like her biggest fingers. And one of her friends was saying that.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02] And then there was a ruby style ring that my ground or I'm sorry, a lit a tiger's eye ring that my grandmother had given her. So my grandmother knew that was the ring that she had identified being is Josette's. And now the lizard earring, our neighbor, David Shantos had given to her. He had pierced his ears. He had an additional earring and he gave it to Josette at the bus stop with his mom and my mom there.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02] So she wore the earring as a friendship gift.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00] And didn't Andrew actually make a confession, which I believe he did recant later. But did you find his confession to be compelling?

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02] I did. In fact, after he gave his confession, he cried. And asked if rape was worse than murder. Trying to put the blame more or less on Anthony.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01] Let us give you a bit more context. According to press reports at the time during his questioning, Krivak did ask if rape was worse than murder. The reason for his question, he explained, was, quote, I don't want to be charged with murder. I raped her. Anthony DePippo murdered her. So there's there's this evidence. And then let's talk about the van witnesses. There's there's some who there's one who never recanted. There's others who've gone back and forth.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01] Let's talk about what generally do they say happened that night? What is their story?

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02] Um, there's there's Andy and Anthony in the van. There was Josette. There was Denise Rose. There was Adam Wilson. And there was Bill McGregor. Bill McGregor was from Brewster. I had no idea who he was. My understanding, he was passed out in the van. So I think that's why his testimony has never changed because he literally when my sister was being attacked, had no recollection. He was passed out in the front seat is what in the driver's seat. We were told by all the other witnesses.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02] Um, the only person having it hasn't given a witness statement was Anthony DePippo. He never confessed to anything on paper, but verbally he has that he killed her. He doesn't remember anything. He confessed this to police officers. He's done it to his friends, that kind of thing. I don't know if that was guilt knowledge, but that's what he did.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00] We want to break in here and give a couple of examples of those other statements from Anthony DePippo as they were reported in the press at the time. Scott Chestnut, who was incarcerated for a time with DePippo, said that DePippo told him that he had had sex with Josette. According to Chestnut, DePippo went on to say that Josette's death was an accident and had happened while he was high.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00] Corrections officer Victor Nestor said that DePippo told him, quote, I was there. I was high. I don't remember. These are not referred to in Bone Valley.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02] Adam Wilson confessed that he saw everything and did nothing. And this is a six foot four tall man who's I feel like he didn't care because his own father was in there for life for murdering a New York City police officer. So I think he hadn't have a moral compass whatsoever. He did testify in the first two trials that he didn't do anything, but he saw Josette being attacked and he knew that she wasn't alive any longer.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02] He did change his testimony years in years later and said he was coerced. And as far as Denise Rose, Denise Rose's testimony was so compelling and it still is to this day. She has testified every single trial, every single court proceeding they've had, and she's never changed her story. And she does not benefit financially from this emotionally.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02] She's damaged from what has they dragged her through the mud and they threatened her and said, if you know you say what happened, you're next. So she was living with that fear of I'm going to that's the same thing is going to happen to me. And that's a really scary thing. I never talked to Denise for many years and then I realized she's a victim to them. And I didn't look at it like that because I thought, how could she not tell anybody what she saw for a couple of years?

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02] But then I realized she's, she's got PTSD and I might have too, if I saw a young girl get vicious. So they attacked the way Josette did and saw her die in the way that she did.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01] What did Denise say happened in terms of what they did to Josette and how this all was precipitated?

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02] Denise Rose said that Josette, he saw Josette at the sicko gas station in Carmel and that they all got in the van. And they went to Fields Lane, which is maybe two miles from Josette's middle school. And I guess Fields Lane, which I was not aware of at the time, was called Marijuana Road. And they went down there. They played spin the bottle when they pulled the van over to the side of the road next to the woods.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02] And I guess they spun it a couple of times. And then when Andy did it, he spun the bottle and landed on Josette. So he went to kiss her and she didn't like that for whatever reason. She didn't like that. And I don't blame her. So he went to kiss her and she turned her cheek. And when he turned her cheek, he wanted to kiss her. So he grabbed her. And that's when the violent assault started to take place.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02] He grabbed her. He kissed her. She was fighting him, said, get the fuck off of me is what the quote was. And he wouldn't do that. And that's when he proceeded to take her clothes off by like rip her clothes off of her. Not except for her shoes. And she was fighting so hard that she broke her right foot, kicking him and punching him, things like that.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02] And he didn't like that. He was trying to control her and he couldn't control her. So he took her her bra she was wearing and he tied around her face after he put shoved her underwear all the way down her throat. So as he started to sexually assault her, she started to die. She was she was dying. She lost consciousness. She stopped fighting. And then so when he was done violently attacking her.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02] Anthony said, leave some from save some for me. And at that point, they believe she put Denise Rose in her statements, believe Josette was dead at that point or almost dead. And then after she died or wasn't moving whatsoever, was limp. They Anthony carried her into the woods. But before he carried into the woods, Andy got out of the van and vomited because he was so scared of what had happened.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02] And they went in the woods, not very far in the woods. And they attempted to bury her by putting a bunch of brush and things like over her and they put her coat, her brown coat on top of her. And she did have another piece of jewelry. It was a like a hologram of an eye. And they found that when they were when Josette's remains were found, they found the hologram and a lot of people identified it.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02] Denise identified it. A lot of friends. We all knew we had seen that pendant on her and it was on a black cord. So the black cord was gone, but the pendant was still there. And they told her when they cut back. Oh, we got her mom's coming to get her knowing that she's dead and knowing that no one has a cell phone. No one has any way to contact anybody. And he said to her, if you say anything, you're next.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02] So they dropped Denise off and they dropped off, I guess, Adam Wilson and Bill McGregor. And she didn't tell anyone out of complete fear for her life. And I believe her.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01] I want to come in here for a moment and add a bit of context that does not appear in Bone Valley. Denise Rose, as Shelley mentioned, has stuck by her story of what happened on the night Josette died. As you heard, Denise's story involved Josette getting into a van with Krivak and DePippo at a Sitgo gas station. An eyewitness named Gary Kempter testified that he saw Josette with DePippo and Krivak at that gas station on the night she disappeared.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01] He remembered the date because a friend of his was released from jail the following day. His story lends credibility to Denise's account.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00] What was it like to sit through these trials, these first trials and learn these details for the first time as you sat with your family?

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02] I heard these details and you know you can't speak in court. But when you hear what someone has done to your little sister. I mean, just shocked. I mean, we were just so shocked. I mean, that's there's no other words to describe how angry you get when you have to hear that someone had had it in them to do something so. So vile to somebody else because they fought back and they fought for their life.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02] And my mom always taught us fight for your life. Don't let someone violate you. Don't let someone hurt you.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00] At this point, Shelley shared with us some information about an incident in DePippo's past. We are going to read excerpts from an article by Jonathan Bandler that appeared in the Journal of News on September 10th, 2016. Quote, DePippo, then 17, was involved in a sexual encounter with a 13-year-old girl a year before Josette Wright was raped and murdered.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00] The exact nature of the 1993 incident is in dispute and DePippo was never charged. The incident in August 1993 involved the then 13-year-old girl being naked in the woods with DePippo. Police investigated, but DePippo was never charged. The woman was re-interviewed in 2012 before DePippo's second trial.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00] She told an investigator she had minimized the severity of the encounter when it happened and suggested it might have been an attempted rape. End quote. This is not referred to in Bone Valley.

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[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like the verdicts and the whole entire trials themselves were fair. All the facts were presented, and everything went the way it was supposed to go as far as trials were concerned. The trials that came in the later years became like circuses. There was media. There was reporters. There was all sorts of accusations.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02] There was jailhouse informants, things that were not present in the first two trials.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00] When did you first become aware that people were questioning their guilt and that another trial was even a possibility?

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02] So they were found guilty in 1997. And I believe that in 2011, I had heard that they were trying to get their convictions overturned. Anthony was trying to get his overturned. And then I heard something about trying.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02] There's a jailhouse informant that said someone else claimed that he killed the two girls and they were in there for the wrong crime. And then in 2012, Anthony got a new trial. And that's when the jailhouse informant became a thing.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00] So this jailhouse informant, he basically, correct me if I'm wrong, he suggested that a man named Howard Gombert had made incriminating statements.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And he did say that in his testimony. He was not able to provide details other than that. He talked to him. He said he admitted to this while they were showering, which I thought was really strange. He was going to be in the shower and say, yeah, I killed two girls, by the way. You know, I would think if someone's going to do that, that wouldn't be for everyone to hear.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01] In terms of Howard Gombert, had his name come up earlier in the investigation? Was he someone who sort of discussed in the initial days of the investigation and like that your family was aware of?

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02] I'd only heard about that because six months and six days after Josette disappeared, another girl disappeared. Her name was Robin Murphy. And then all of a sudden I heard Howard Gombert's name and I had no idea who he was. I had no clue.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01] Was there some possibility, you know, just as you're kind of initially dealing with her disappearance, it was there some possibility of like, OK, maybe if he had something to do with this other girl going missing, maybe he had something to do with Josette. Or was there anything about like he's a possibility?

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02] I think just as the same as Anthony and Andy's name came about, I think Howard's did because they all had criminal records or arrests that. So they became kind of like targets as far as like, you know, their names being thrown around. It was never anyone that was like a friend of ours or anyone that we specifically knew. So I think because Howard was the last person to see Robin Murphy alive, then it became, well, maybe he did this. Maybe he did that.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01] OK, so Howard Gombert. He was someone that your mom at least was aware of. Right. Yes. Tell me about why was he like how is she aware of him? And maybe like why would he have been a suspect in her mind early on?

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, because we had we when when what happened was when Robin Murphy disappeared six, six months and six days after Josette as her disappearance. We had read the newspaper or at least I had and I think she had that Howard Gombert was the last known person to see her alive before she disappeared. And so we start people started just kind of drawing attention to both go. Maybe it's the same person.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe it's coincidence or, you know, so the name came out because of the other case.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01] That makes sense. And so when she made a comment about him early on and it was kind of in retrospect looking at that, basically. Yes. In terms of. You know, Howard Gombert, so can you talk to us? Talk to us. So we talked about this jailhouse snitch. He's making a claim that Howard Gombert's making incriminating statements in the shower, in the shower, in the shower. Yes, it's documented. Yeah.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01] And that, you know, is it fair to say are you are you skeptical of these claims? I'm very skeptical. We want to break in once again to provide some context. The jailhouse snitch we are talking about is a man named Joseph Santoro. Again, he claimed that Gombert made some incriminating statements about the rape and murder of Josette. In 2021, he threatened to recant that testimony and say it was all a lie unless he was paid one point five million dollars by DePippo.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01] That certainly throws his credibility into question. In a twenty twenty one article in the Journal News, Putnam County District Attorney Robert Tendi was quoted as saying, we've always maintained that Mr. Santoro was not a credible witness. And this makes that clear.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02] He said what he said is he heard. He said that he talked to Howard in the shower and he admitted to everything. And these two suckers are taking the fall for me killing these two girls and no one will know. And then I'm thinking, if that's true, then now everyone's going to know. And then he said he went and wrote everything down. And when he wrote it down, he couldn't remember what he wrote down. So to keep asking for and what what will he wrote down in the prosecutor said, well, if you if someone said they killed someone, I think you should commit that to memory.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02] I think how did you write that down? So he had kept referring to it, mixing up and mixing up everyone's name and saying, can I start over? I'm really confused. He was a terrible witness.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00] What was it like when you found out these men were going to get new trials?

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02] That happened several times. And each time I felt at peace when we had the third trial, it was over and done with in 2012. And I felt a sense of peace. And I thought, it's finally over. We've had three trials, two for Anthony DePippo and one for Andy Kravak. And this is done. There's there's no more trials. And then we got word that there was another trial. And I just thought this is never going to stop.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02] This is never they're just going to keep giving them new trials based on a jailhouse informant just to get the desired result that they want. I don't understand. I've never even heard of this myself. And it's not even based on testimony that's factual is based on hearsay evidence, which to me is not evidence at all.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01] There's been some discussion about the like some sort of investigator for the defense handing out envelopes. Can you talk about that?

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. At the 2016 trial for Anthony DePippo, at this point, he had a lot more money or his stepfather had a lot more money and they were paying more expensive attorneys. One of his attorneys was Mark Baker. One was Mark Agnifolo. And if anyone's aware, he was the one that defended Diddy in his last trial. And he did the.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02] They had a full time detective working for the case for Anthony DePippo's case. And every time one of their their witnesses left the witness stand and walked out of the courtroom, we would immediately see that detective walk out and hand him an envelope. And when we said we asked one of the court officers, I'm like, is that allowed? And he said, we don't know what's in the envelope. You didn't see money in the envelope. No, I did not.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02] But to this day, I wish I had knocked it out of their hands just to see what it was.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01] And is Nick Agnifolo one of the ones on Mangione? Luigi Mangione?

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02] His wife is the lead one and he's the co-counsel and one amongst other attorneys. Yeah.

[00:25:13] Yep.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01] Can you tell us how things went differently in the in the final trials as far as, you know, that led to this different outcome?

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02] The last trials were very, very different than the first three, because there was the Jalhaus informants. We had people we had witnesses pass away. We had me my even my grandmother wasn't there to testify about the ring. We had our neighbor David Shantos. He said he doesn't even remember giving her the lizard earring, although his his mother is always testified. And so had he up until the last trial that he gave her the earring at the bus stop.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02] And then all of a sudden he has forget me memory. So there was a lot of evidence that wasn't able to be introduced. Witnesses passed away and witnesses had recanted their stories. The only person that hadn't was Denise Rose. And she still said, I saw what I saw. I know what happened and I'm not going to change my testimony.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02] There was a detective from Pennsylvania that tried to bribe Denise to change her testimony and that she wasn't. She said I needed the money and I wasn't going to do it because that's the wrong thing to do. So she wouldn't even change her testimony.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00] Let's stop for a moment to highlight this because we feel it is significant. This is a case, as we have seen, where several witnesses for the state recanted and essentially became witnesses for the defense. It is a case where the jailhouse snitch wanted money for his testimony. And then there is this. Let's quote excerpts from a 2006 article in the Journal of News written by Liz Sadler. Quote,

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00] A former New York City detective is accused of trying to bribe an eyewitness in the 1994 rape and murder case of 11-year-old Josette Wright of Carmel, offering the witness money from a movie deal if she would recant her testimony. Patricia McGovern, 39, was charged yesterday in Putnam County Court with attempted bribing of a witness, a felony and fourth-degree tampering with a witness, and fourth-degree criminal solicitation.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00] In a statement, District Attorney Wright said the alleged bribery attempt would have served as the basis for DePippo to bring a motion to have his rape and murder conviction thrown out. McGovern is accused of trying to bribe the witness on October 31st in Pennsylvania with a promise of significant monetary compensation.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00] Again, to be clear, we feel that all of this raises serious questions about the credibility of some of the witness recantations in this case.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01] Again, Bone Valley does not mention this at all. You go through all this multiple times on all accounts, and then both men are acquitted at the end of this, as you know, after you have a final trial where witnesses have died and others have conveniently forgotten things.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, yes. How did that?

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01] How did that? Oh, go ahead.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02] So the same evidence that was presented was now not the same evidence that was present in the first two or three trials. It was now less evidence, less witnesses, less leaving the door for maybe some doubt, if you had any as a juror.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01] Did you understand where the jury was coming from with their decision? No, I did not. Why not?

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02] They were in one of the claims, and you know, defense does not have to put on anything. They don't even have to do their own witnesses. They don't have to put on they're not don't have the burden of proof. And I understand that. But they were making the bold claims that they were going to tie Howard Gombert to Josette. And they were never able to do that ever. They wouldn't even they couldn't even identify him in the same room. They made a claim that she went in the car with him and no one could I know when there was no witness that could that could corroborate that.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02] That was just them trying to introduce witnesses that weren't credible that just said, I think it was. And see, Howard is not very tall. So there was a potential witness every single time saying, oh, it was a six foot one tall, blonde man. And Howard is not blonde and he's not tall. He's not six foot one. So that was not a good witness.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02] So they were never able to tie Josette with Howard Gombert ever, ever even knowing each other, ever saying hi to each other or being in the same room.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01] So they have all of this, you know, you know, in terms of, you know, I guess they're saying Rachel was one of Gombert's victims and there was a tie between Josette and was that did that come in in any way?

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02] And now, now, now with Rachel. Um, what's interesting is that they're in this housing where no one can live there, but that the people that are on the section eight housing voucher. So it was Rachel's sibling and Rachel's mom. So they were trying to say that Howard Gombert lived there, but he can't live there and reside there if you have, you know, subsidized housing.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02] So they did make the claims that she had a claim against him and she withdrew them when she was younger, before she got pregnant with somebody else's baby, I guess.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01] So, I mean, all this just sounds like a huge mess. How did you feel? Yeah, I mean, like to say the least.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02] It's very convoluted and it's very strange. Yeah.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01] How did it feel though going through all of this and then you have two acquittals, these men both get acquitted?

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like Josette was lost in all of this and that all the emphasis and everything was put on these two defendants. And not what they did. It's what everyone else did. And that they were blameless and everything. And that's not true at all.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01] How did you and your family react when the verdicts were announced?

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02] In 2016, when Anthony DePippo's third jury, yeah, third jury made a decision and found him not guilty. We just sat there stunned in silence. There's because there was nothing we can do.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02] We literally couldn't believe our ears. And the judge himself pulled the jury because he was, I think, stunned. I can't speak to how his personal thoughts were, but he looked to the left, looked straight ahead and pulled the jury. And the district attorney didn't want to do it.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01] Have any jurors ever reached out to you and given you their thoughts or why this happened?

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02] I did have a juror from the 2012 one from Anthony. He reached out to me, left, sent, he found me on Facebook, sent me a message and said, I know they did it. Oh, I'm sorry. 2016. He sent me a message, said, I know that he knew their verdict right away. And he doesn't live in the area anymore. He knew the verdict and he said, I'm sorry. I saw the evidence. I know they did it.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02] So he was on a previous trial and then reacting to the acquittal, reacting to something four years later after he's already not in the area. So that means he was either following it or he saw it or somebody told him about it. He knew that same day. Wow. And he said he knows they're guilty. He's guilty.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_00] So not only were these men acquitted, they actually filed suits against the government and have been awarded literally millions of dollars. What is it like for you to see these men whom you believe killed your sister, given such riches?

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02] It's beyond a smack in the face. It's almost as if the justice system or the injustice system is murdering Josette all over again. And and and just to know that they were they were handsomely rewarded for their wrongdoings. And it was it was just disgusting. And it really made me question what was wrong with Putnam County, because they didn't even bother to hear what their statements were when they did file suits.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02] They didn't even they didn't even depose them and ask them and make them accountable for anything. And basically, they said, I want this. And then they got it. And then the other one sold. So so Anthony Depebo wanted 12 million. They just they basically said, all right, 12 million. And I find it interesting because Josette was 12 years old. So I don't know how they arrived at this when both of them were high school dropouts. They didn't have careers. They didn't have a future and they were drug dealers.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02] So I don't know how they justified that amount of money for the first one.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01] How do you feel? You know, we're talking about Bone Valley, but you mentioned there was media circuses around multiple trials that you've been through. How do you feel the media has covered this? Has it been all bad? Has it been some good? Is it I mean, what's that been like?

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02] I'll have to say that's a really interesting question, Anya, because from the beginning, it was more neutral. They believe you have any comments, you know, in the late 90s and then into 2012. Do you have a picture of Josette on file? We have one picture we would get. I would give a picture. They take a picture of that kind of thing.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02] And by the time we arrived at 2016, we noticed that the same reporters with the same newspapers and the same people from the news on TV were now sitting and mingling with the defense team, which and sitting on their side, which, by the way, in Putnam County, all their courthouses. There's a way larger place for the prosecutors witnesses or like family to sit. And the defense. And the defense, it's very small.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02] So they crammed themselves on their side. And I thought that was really interesting. And if you have them want to comment, I said, no, you're on their side. You're already literally on their side. I'm not I'm not making any comments, good or bad. So I didn't really I saw the biased way that they were reporting what happened in court. What do you think changed?

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02] I think that people decided that cops are bad and put in everyone a category and then and that there's such thing as wrongful convictions. But if you go into a into a jail, how into a jail or prison and you ask a thousand inmates if they did it, I would say probably nine percent are going to say they didn't do it. So, I mean, are you going to believe them or you're going to believe the evidence? So I believe that there's been a shift for whatever reason in the justice system.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02] And all of a sudden there's wrongful convictions everywhere. And I don't believe that's really true. I think a lot of people are guilty and that their cases were valid. Not all, but most of them.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01] I think when we spoke previously once, you mentioned like one reporter who is basically like following the defense team around. Can you tell me about what she was doing?

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02] Um, she was on their side. They went to lunch with them when there was court recess. Um, she was really unbelievable. Um, she would just talk to them and just sit with them. And I said, I'm never talking to her. And this is someone I spoke to in 2012. Oh, and I was like, what a mistake I made when she was kind of taking both sides and not sitting. She would sit on either side of the courthouse. And now it's just strictly on that side.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02] So I don't know what her agenda was, but it was definitely not anything to do with our side. She wasn't as far as I'm concerned, she wasn't on our side.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01] So, I mean, it's also interesting to me. One thing we see is that oftentimes the defense is far more likely in criminal trials to give information to the press in certain cases, not always. Certainly not always, but more likely to play the media circus at that stage. And there's, you know, it's just, it's, it's very interesting. I feel like you saw this interesting shift from the nineties onward.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01] Um, so ultimately one thing I will say that, uh, Bone Valley does do in fairness to them is that they certainly outline a lot of these crimes or alleged crimes by, um, Howard Gombert and they're horrifying. I mean, they're victimizing young girls. So I can understand why people might look at him and say, well, that could be a good suspect too. But is there any information that sort of makes you having seen all these trials, having seen all this evidence that makes you sort of say, well, I kind of set him aside for this reason.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02] When Josette disappeared on October 3rd, 1994, Howard was working at Sears at the automotive department. And he had clocked in when you would punch into a job and he was, he was at his job. He wasn't even the same state where Josette was missing in New York. So I never considered him a suspect because he wasn't physically near or able to get to Josette and take her from the town of Carmel when he was in Danbury, Connecticut.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01] With that known with that, you know, having been investigated and ruled out, why do you think he was, these people were even given a new trial? Because it's like, I mean, you'd think that that would be enough to be like, okay, well, obviously this jailhouse snitch is lying.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I am not sure. I know it was ineffective counsel. They also went with that. So I think that was maybe the driving force. And I, I don't really know.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01] So did, did this evidence, like, is it still in place somewhere or did he like, has it been lost or like what happened?

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02] I believe at some point it was, they had spoke to his boss and he said, yes, he was here. Cause you know, you can clock into a job and probably walk out if you wanted to, but then your, your coworkers or your boss has to vouch for you. You're being there. I believe it was part of evidence and I'm not so sure anymore if it's, it's around. I'm not so sure it may be lost. That's why I never considered him a suspect because he wasn't even near Josette to have, to have done anything to her.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01] You know, we talked a little bit about how the media is frankly treated this case, treated your family. Um, can you talk about your family's interaction with this person, Paul, who's doing this bone Valley series?

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my interaction with Paul from the bone Valley. Um, I have no interaction with them whatsoever. And my mom and my sister have never even heard of them. And we've never, I've never spoken to him.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01] Your mom gave him a quote for the Rolling Stone story, right?

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Okay. So yeah. So my mom did yes for the Rolling Stones. Yes.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01] And, um, you know, in terms of, in terms of that Rolling Stone article, have you read it?

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02] I tried to read it and immediately I started noticing some, um, some facts that were just not factual that they had made claims on. And it was really hard for me to finish it. It's a very long article. Um, and it goes more into the description of the town. And I think that's irrelevant. Um, and it went into a lot of details that weren't, they weren't correct. Cause he, once again, he never asked my side.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02] He never approached me and said, is this correct? Is this right? Where's Joseph born? It was all from what I saw. It wasn't correct. So, and then I saw the anonymous pseudo names and I thought, you know what, if you have names like Rachel, that's not even a credible source. I can't even say who is that. Cause I know who it is, but I mean, you're not even naming the person.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01] When, when I, I'm just giving you a little editorializing from myself, since we're talking about basically editorializing. Um, you know, I felt that in the least in the first episode, and that's kind of predominantly what we're talking about today with you. And we mentioned some quotes. It seemed to take a pretty negative view of your family, sort of making it out that, you know, just that was unloved and unwanted and that she wanted to get away from you all.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01] And that you had an out of control party house. Um, that was like a bad place for a kid to be. How does it make you feel that a pretty large predominant podcast is putting that out there about you and your family?

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02] I find it, um, pretty interesting for a large podcast to do something like that when they're going off, they're, they're going off this as they're being credible sources. And to me, they're not being, they're not credible at all. So what does that say about their audience? They're listening to things that are absolutely not true. Um, and attacking the victim's family, I would think is not probably the best way to go about telling a story either.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01] How does it make you feel on an emotional level?

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02] I, emotionally, it's pretty disgusting. I'm actually not shocked because I've seen how their side has, um, decided to attack us. And now I feel like we should fight back because their side of the story is being told and ours isn't. And Josette can't speak for herself. She can't even tell anyone what her thoughts were. I don't know what her thoughts were, but I know what her actions were. And I don't think that their side should be the only one that's being told.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01] If you could have a message for the bone Valley people, based on what you've kind of heard so far, based on what I don't, I don't think you've listened, but certainly we've asked you about some pretty direct quotes about you. I mean, what would you, what would you want to share with them?

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02] I'd want to know why they feel the need to, to fabricate and mislead their, their viewers. When the viewers are, are looking at this case and listening to it for the first time. I would think that if they're going to listen to it, they want to have all the facts of the case, not what they feel should be the narrative that everyone should be listening to. Because if they listen to it, they're not going to, you can't ring that bell. You're going to hear it and think that's fact. And it's not. If I did a podcast cast on my sister's case, mine would be vastly different.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02] And that's the thing. They're only eating one side of the story. And that's, that's, that's very lopsided to me.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01] If it was something that took a viewpoint of, hey, we think these guys are innocent, but at least they had different sides represented. Would you find it so objectionable?

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02] I would find that more and more balanced. So the viewer can decide, is this person credible? Is this person telling the truth? Does this person have a good memory? Are they making this up? And what's, why are they doing this? Like I have nothing to hide, but if you're going to hide behind a pseudo name that, that it kind of says that you're not to me very credible. Cause I don't even know who Rachel is. You know, if I'm a viewer, you're just listening to this person who can't come out and say who they are. They have a, they have allegations against people, but they've never followed through with them in court.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02] So they're just allegations at this point.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it was, it was shocking to me that a central thesis of this project seems to be that Josette was uncared and uncared for and unloved and basically saying all this stuff about your family. Right.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02] And I feel like the neighbors would have reported us. I feel like her teachers would have, she went to school. I think her teacher would have said, this is an unkempt person. This is someone who's uncared for. She's not loved. I would feel like if Josette was reaching out to this Rachel person, she would have reached out to other people in authority or a teacher. Um, or even other, her actual friends, her friends have never gone on the stand and testified that she hated us.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02] It was only their side manufacturing this person to say that none of her friends or best friends have never said that to us. I still talk to some of Josette's friends and they've never indicated that to us.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01] And I just, I mean, we, I should, I should have touched upon this earlier, but like when you were 17, were you hanging out with a lot of 12 year olds? No, I wasn't. You weren't like hanging out coming to your house and unloading all their problems on you. No, I didn't hang out with 12 year olds. No. Hey, did you Kevin when you were 17?

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, I did not.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01] I can't say I did either.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00] Apparently Rachel did.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01] Apparently Rachel was best friends with a 12 year old when she was your age, 17 when this all went down.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02] And Rachel didn't know where Josette lives. So I find that very interesting that she didn't take her home after 10 PM or 2 AM when she saw her and felt the need to watch her walk through the town of Carmel.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01] Well, apparently everyone who is associated with the defense side of this case saw Josette wandering through the night at all hours constantly and no one else did. So I find that really interesting too.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02] I find it interesting that I didn't see her wandering the streets. My other sister Chloe didn't either. So, and my mom who had two jobs should have seen this as well at some point too. So.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it seems, it seems odd, but. Um, you know, I, I'm just curious, you know, are you going to listen to this?

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00] The podcast in Clone Valley.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, Bone Valley. I feel like that would be a waste, a gigantic waste of my time. Um, I don't think their sources are something that I'm going to agree with. I don't think their sources are credible and I think they have an agenda and it's, it's not to highlight the entire case. It's just to show what they want you to see and, and form your own opinion. And I don't think that's, it's something I'm interested in, in viewing honestly, or listening to.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01] If you had to say something to, I mean, Bone Valley, you know, maybe someone is coming into it. If they enjoyed their previous seasons, felt they did a good job and they're coming to this cold. And you had a message for someone in that position where they're kind of hearing some of your response to this for the first time. What would you tell them about supporting a show that does something like this?

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02] I would tell them, go do your due diligence and look up on the case and see what else is out there. There are five trials. There is a ton of evidence. See what the evidence really is. Find out who did the confessions and who, why did they make a confession and, and see for yourself. Don't look at one source. You've got to look at many sources and you've got to decide for yourself if that's even a wrongful conviction or so-called that's their claims.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02] But they have not been able to prove anything except for that they have their side and that's it. To me, that's, that's not very credible.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01] When it comes to Josette, how would you like people to remember this 12 year old girl who is the victim in this case? Because she was the one who was raped and murdered at the age of 12. What do you want people to remember about her?

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02] I want everyone to remember Josette as being, as you said, Anya, a 12 year old girl who liked boys. She wanted to be a teacher when she got older. She wanted to have a family and she wanted to have two kids. And I thought that was interesting that she already had said that. And I said, why not three? You're one of three. She's like, no, two is good.

[00:47:55] I said, okay.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02] So she even had a number. So I find that very fascinating that, you know, she had that already planned. But I just want everyone to remember that she is the true victim in all of this. And that has completely been lost in the past, I don't know, 20 something years. And they're the reason, she's the reason we're here because she was victimized, left in the woods. And they made claims that they can't find, oh, no one can walk in the woods at night. It's dark. I mean, they're drug dealers.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02] They're pretty hardcore. They would go down to the city and buy drugs and sell them up in these neighborhoods. So I don't think that they're incapable of walking through the woods. This is what we did when we were younger. We went through the woods and we survived. So I think in all of this, I want everyone to remember that she was a funny, sweet, delightful girl that didn't deserve any of this that happened to her. None of this.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_01] Shelly, I want to say she did not deserve this and you did not deserve this and your family did not deserve this. And you haven't deserved any of this, meaning not only what happened to just that and the horror of that, but also the subsequent media circuses and frankly, re-traumatization and re-victimization by unscrupulous people who want to essentially run with this for their own sinister agenda or whatever you want to call it.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, they basically took a 12 year old girl and assassinated her character. And this is what makes them, they can sleep at night doing this. And I find that amazing because I would have a moral compass and I just can't do stuff like that. But these are people that have no regard for anything. And this is all a money ploy. This is just to get viewers and sensationalize anything that happened and making something and trying to chase the course of history. You can't make guilty people not guilty, no matter how much money they have. They were convicted.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02] There was three convictions to, you know, it's not like these other juries were like, oh, we got it wrong. They're like, no, we got it right. We saw the evidence. It was pretty clear. And for them introducing all this other stuff, it just created a lot of noise and all this noise created doubt. And when you have doubt, people are like, oh, I don't know if I can convict. I'm not so sure. And over time, like the case deteriorated. So we were the prosecutions always at a disadvantage when that happens. And it sucks. It really does. It's just not fair.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_02] And I wish I had my sister back. I never thought a million years that I would outlive my sister. Like, I would never thought that. So like I'm five years older. And then when you realize how fragile life is, I don't think Josette realized that there were evil people in the world. She didn't have that thought. She thought everyone was her friend. And it turns out some people are not good people. And she had to find out the hard way through no fault of her own.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. She was, sounds like a delightful kid with a lot of friends. So I can understand why she thought everyone was her friend. Unfortunately, not everyone is deserving of that trust.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I think when they said, oh, we know your sister, Chloe, that she let her guard down. And I think that's why she got in their van. She felt, oh, if Chloe knows them, they can't be bad.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I'm just so sorry, Shelly, again.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you. I appreciate it, Anya and Kevin. I really do take my side of the story and let everyone know what really happened.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_00] We want to thank Shelly for taking the time to talk with us and share her story. We intend to continue covering this case. If you have any information on Josette's case, Anthony DePippo, Andrew Krivak or Howard Gombert, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. We will keep your information confidential.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01] We protect our sources.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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