The Murder of Sheriff-Elect Derwin Brown: A Conversation with Former District Attorney J. Tom Morgan

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04] At The Murder Sheet, we're a small two-person business run out of our home office with the help, or should we say sabotage, of our dogs, Nick and Nora. When it comes to running a business, or better yet, growing and scaling a business, expertise matters. We know that for a fact. That's where Upwork comes in. Upwork is a platform for finding, hiring, and paying expert freelancers. These are the folks who can help take your business to the next level.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_03] Upwork works because it's a one-stop shop. Recruit talent across software development, creative writing, data and analytics, marketing, business operations, and more. Whatever line of work you need, Upwork's got it across 125 categories.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_04] Now, I myself was on Upwork for years as a freelancer. I anonymously wrote a ton of romance novels for my clients. It was great. Super seamless, convenient, and easy. I took pride in my work and helping my clients scale their small publishing businesses. Plus, it was super fun.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_03] Sign up for Upwork today. It is totally free and easy. All you have to do is post a job you want done. Upwork takes care of recruiting posts, contracts, and payments. Join the thousands of businesses who already trust Upwork to help them attract top talent and get important work done.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_04] Upwork works. I know. I was on Upwork for years. Try Upwork today.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_03] Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Upwork dot com.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_04] Here at The Murder Sheet, we both wear glasses. But since buying glasses is a hassle, we hang on to ours for way too long. Like, we've both held on to pairs that have definitely seen way better days. Anything to avoid having to pay hundreds of dollars for a replacement.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03] Those days are over thanks to Zenni Optical. Zenni is an online eyewear shop. They offer up stylish prescription glasses, sunglasses, and customizable lens options, all starting at under $30.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_04] I've been wearing my Zenni Sausalito sunglasses everywhere. Bright light gives me headaches and bothers me when I'm driving. But through Zenni, I got to order these super cute, classy prescription sunglasses for just like $77. I'd expect these to be hundreds of bucks. But I was able to just put together my order easily online, uploading my prescription, then I was done. I was able to use their virtual try-on technology to see how the frame looked on me.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_03] I've been wearing my full-rim black stainless steel square eyeglass frames for reading. I'm currently reading a collection of vintage true crime unsolved cases. These glasses were only $68. That's a great deal. I love that Zenni lets you buy special pairs of glasses for whatever you want to do.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_04] That scratched-up pair has done its job. Upgrade today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order, plus free shipping on all U.S. orders over $65. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast, promo code PODCAST15.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01] You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact that you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. They make it super simple. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with coverage options tailored to your choices. Plus, you'll see which discounts you may qualify for, like the online quote discount or savings for paying in full.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01] In fact, 99% of Progressive Auto customers earn at least one discount. See if you could save when you switch to Progressive. You'll feel good about making a savvy choice. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little extra cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_04] I'm Anya, and today we're going to talk to a former district attorney who became a target himself along with his family when he took on a murderous conspiracy.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_04] DeKalb County Sheriff-elect Derwin Brown walked to his front porch clutching a bouquet of roses. It was December 15, 2000. A cold rain fell in Georgia. Then, gunfire. Sheriff-elect Brown, an honest and dedicated public servant, was gunned down. Dead. Killed in an ambush. Who could have done this? A criminal? A desperate robber attacking targets at random?

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04] Or perhaps an offender Brown had put away in his many years as a detective? No. You could have guessed the true mastermind behind the deadly plot. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_04] And this is The Murder of Sheriff-elect Derwin Brown, a conversation with former district attorney J. Tom Morgan.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04] To learn more about this twisting case, we read A Rainy Night in Georgia, a lawman's brutal murder, a rogue Southern sheriff, and a prosecutor's quest for justice.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_04] This is not just a gripping crime nonfiction read.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03] The author is J. Tom Morgan. He's the district attorney of DeKalb County who prosecuted this case. He served in that role from 1992 to 2004, having previously served as an assistant district attorney in DeKalb County. He now teaches criminal law at Western Carolina University in North Carolina.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_04] Because of the nature of this crime, J. Tom also played a major role in the investigation of Brown's murder. So much hung in the balance. Justice for a dedicated law enforcement official, a man with a family who loved him. The trust of the public, which had seen its will subverted with violence. And the sanctity of our democratic process and the peaceful transfer of power itself.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_04] Let's hear from J. Tom and see how this all played out. First of all, J. Tom, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, thank you for inviting us.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, we were really excited to read this. A rainy night in Georgia, a lawman's brutal murder, a rogue southern sheriff, and a prosecutor's quest for justice. It's excellent. We're going to be talking about that case that you both worked on and then subsequently wrote about. I suppose to start off with, can you just maybe set the scene for our listeners and tell us about where exactly were you in your career in 2000, and sort of preceding these horrible events, and had you always wanted to be a prosecutor?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00] After I graduated from the University of Georgia Law School, I went to work with the DeKalb County District Attorney's Office. Bob Wilson, then the DA, hired me. And like many lawyers, I knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer. And I was told that the best way to get there is to be a prosecutor or public defender. And Bob offered me the job.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00] About two years into my work as an ADA, though, Bob had this novel idea at the time to appoint one prosecutor to specialize in crimes against children. That had never been done in Georgia before. And I was one of the first in the country to do it. So Bob appointed me to learn how to prosecute crimes against children, develop protocols, and teach others as well. So I did that for nine years before being elected district attorney.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00] So in 2000, when this crime occurred, I had just completed my third election as district attorney at DeKalb County. That was in December 15, 2000.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_04] I do want to ask you about the crimes against children. What was it like working those cases, and how did that sort of factor into the development of your career?

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00] Anya, back then, none of us knew what we were doing. And I'm serious. We learned by trial, by area. You know, today, I teach students who want to be forensic interviewers in child advocacy centers. We'd never heard of a forensic interviewer or a child advocacy center at that time. So certainly the world has changed for the better.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00] I learned, and I learned with the help of other prosecutors, how to interview children, how to prepare children for court, that these cases take a lot more time, especially working with the child, developing the trust of the children, and taking a child into a courtroom with strangers. You know, it's something that you don't learn how to do in law school. And we also developed protocols.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00] Everybody was going in different directions, social services, the police, the doctors, the prosecutors. And so we developed protocols that are still used today on how to work and handle these cases. Fortunately, I was able to be among the first. I learned from my mistakes and got the opportunity to teach prosecutors throughout the country and in other countries as well on how to investigate and prosecute crimes against children.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00] We also, at that time, we expanded my unit to include homicide cases. And part of that protocol involved that I'll be at the autopsy when a child had been murdered. So when I went to the autopsy of the sheriff in this case, I was not unfamiliar with autopsies and autopsy protocols.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. And, you know, you say it was maybe more primitive back then, but we wouldn't be where we are now if prosecutors like yourself hadn't started doing that back in the day. Can you set the scene for people who may not be familiar with DeKalb County, who may not have ever been there and may not know much about it? Can you set the scene about what it was like there and, you know, the culture and whatnot in 2000?

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00] Atlanta is comprised of now probably 12 counties. DeKalb County in 2000 was the second largest county in Georgia. And part of the city limits of Atlanta is in DeKalb County. Over 700,000 persons, almost 50-50 racially divided and predominantly Democratic Party controls. So when I ran as a prosecutor, I ran as a Democrat.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00] It also has stellar educational institutions, Emory University, Agnes Scott College, Oglethorpe University. And the Centers for Disease Control is located in DeKalb County. So it is a very urban county.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_04] Can you talk about the DeKalb County sheriff's election that occurred in 2000 and sort of maybe set the scene for what was happening with that?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00] A little background. In Georgia, the sheriff in the urban areas has conceded a lot of their law enforcement responsibilities to the local police and county police departments. Now, if you get in the rural areas outside of Atlanta, the sheriff is still king. The sheriff is in charge of law enforcement. So my day-to-day responsibilities with the elected sheriff were very nominal. The sheriff was responsible for housing the inmates.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00] And the DeKalb County jail is the largest jail, still the largest jail, the side of the Mississippi River. Holds over 3,000 inmates. So the sheriff has a very big responsibility. But the law enforcement responsibilities are nil, actually. So he, the sheriff, is elected Democrat. And I was elected Democrat. We had to be at a lot of the same political functions at the same time.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00] But other than those perfunctory matters, I did not have that much to do with the sheriff. I prosecuted my first year in office a sheriff, Sheriff Jarvis. Sheriff Jarvis had been an Atlanta Braves pitcher adored by his fans. And the requirement to be a sheriff in Georgia, Anya, is no felony convictions and a high school education.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00] So no prior law enforcement experience is required. And Sheriff Jarvis was elected after he retired for being a Braves pitcher. It was during that time, though, that we discovered that he was taking bribes because in Georgia, the sheriff and only the sheriff determines who operates the binding companies and who owns the binding companies. So Sheriff Jarvis, and he wasn't the first sheriff in Georgia either, to take bribes from binding companies.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00] So I prosecuted him with the help of the U.S. Attorney's Office, Sally Yates, who ultimately became the acting attorney general of our country. And I worked on that case together and brought it to fruition. When the case that we're talking about today, when Derwin Brown, who was a narcotics detective who had been promoted to captain, decided to run for sheriff against the incumbent sheriff. He was talking about fraud and corruption.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00] And I just thought it was a lot of noise because I had not heard anything about any wrongdoings going on in the sheriff's department. I thought, again, there's a lot of political noise.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00] But also around the same time that Sheriff-elect Brown was deciding to run, Dale Cardwell, a reporter for WSB in Atlanta, an investigative reporter, he started getting some inside information from a whistleblower that we, to this day, I don't know who it was.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00] And he started broadcasting things that were going on in the sheriff's department that nobody in the world had ever heard of before. And so it became a very contentious election. Again, I was running at the same time. I had an opponent. I was really focused on getting reelected more so than what was going on in the sheriff's race. Amazingly, now Georgia requires that you win by more than 50 percent of the vote.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00] And so in the primary election, Brown and Dorsey were 316 votes apart out of thousands and thousands of votes cast. That's what threw this into a runoff election. Cardwell had more esposées that we talk about in the book come out. And that resulted in Dorsey being defeated and Brown being elected in that August. There was no opponent in the general election.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00] So the winner of the Democratic primary was going to be the next sheriff.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_04] Before we kind of get into what happened in December, as you mentioned, the sheriff's office is not something that you're necessarily, you know, working investigations with. It's more of that kind of jail role and those other duties. That being said, what was your sense of, I guess, Derwin Brown and Sidney Dorsey as people? Derwin Brown being this kind of newly triumphant sheriff elect and Sidney Dorsey being the outgoing incumbent.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00] I knew both these men because of working in law enforcement. So let's start with Derwin Brown. He was a narcotics detective. He was one of the first black officers in the DeKalb County Police Department. And what astounded me about Derwin was his honesty and forthrightness, even when it hurt the prosecution. I had a case one time we were in a motion to suppress.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00] And Derwin admitted on the stand that he didn't have probable cause when he looked back at it. He knew that would throw the case out. And he did it because he was honest. So I had tremendous respect for him. I was shocked that he would run for an election, though, and against a very popular incumbent sheriff. Sheriff Dorsey had been a detective in the Atlanta Police Department way back when.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00] In the 1980s, we had a horrible case in Atlanta that is referred to as the Murdered and Missing Children case, where over 30 young black males were murdered. And Dorsey was one of the lead detectives on that case that ended up having Williams arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. And his wife was on the Atlanta City Council. Remember I said part of the city of Atlanta is in DeKalb County. And they were a power couple.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, you've got Atlanta City Council member and you've got the elected sheriff. When I saw Dorsey around town, you know, he always had a bevy of detectives around him or, you know, law enforcement, the deputies guarding him. He liked to wear uniforms with epaulets on the shoulders. And he had a swagger about him. And he was very charismatic. Derwin was a great person, but charisma was not his middle name.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00] And Dorsey did have charisma. And he had a great following. He was supported, just as I was supported, by the black clergy. And if you know anything about the South, the black clergy is very important to get elected, especially in Democratic primaries. And we both courted some of the same supporters. So I saw Dorsey a lot on the campaign trail. And to be frank, I was absolutely shocked when the primary ended up in a runoff. But it did.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00] And that's why we're here today.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_04] It's always great when you get clothing that you just can't stop wearing. It just looks that good. It's just that comfortable. That's the kind of clothing our wonderful sponsor, Quince, specializes in crafting for you. That's why we love Quince and are constantly shopping there to restock and refresh our wardrobes.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_03] You are going to adore your new Quince pieces. We certainly do. Even more so because they're 50 to 80% less than similar brands because Quince cuts out the middleman.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04] I recently purchased a 100% European linen fit and flare midi dress in chili red. I love it. We recently went abroad for a loved one's wedding. And I wore it to the welcome party with my red shoes. And I got a lot of compliments. I'm not really known for being super stylish. So I feel Quince is my cheat code for looking effortlessly polished without breaking the bank.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_03] I got a pearl snap denim western shirt in denim blue that I wore to the same event. I love how it feels, especially as the seasons change. I'm big on comfort and wearability and Quince always delivers.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_04] Or if you want, you can try their soft, luxurious 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters that we also love. Those are starting at just 60 bucks. Don't just have to stick to clothing either. Try their hotel quality bedding and furniture to up your home style for less.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_03] Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash msheet. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's quince.com slash msheet.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_04] We've been on a real kick lately to improve our health. And that means getting good sleep and rest. For us, that starts with amazing, comfortable bedding.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_03] That's why we love our sponsor, Bowlin Branch. They create everything you need to help your bed feel like the coziest, most relaxing place in the world. Luxurious comforters, cozy blankets, supportive pillows, and of course, their signature sheets.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_04] Bowlin Branch has the preferred sheets of the murder sheets. We just got Bowlin Branch's signature hemmed sheet set in dusty rows.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03] We broke those out and immediately felt as if we were sleeping on those really comfortable hotel sheets. We got amazing sleep on these. No sliding fitted sheets. No issues. Just rest and relaxation.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_04] These sheets are breathable. They're soft and comforting. Our bedroom routine is after we tuck Nick and Nora into their doggy beds, we both read for a while and then drift off. Both of us have struggled with insomnia at times. But with these sheets, with Bowlin Branch, you just sort of melt off to sleep. And somehow, these sheets have only gotten softer as we've washed them. Since we've got these sheets, we've even had a few lazy Saturdays where we spent most of the day in bed reading crime fiction. It was heavenly and so comfortable.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_03] We adore our Bowlin Branch sheets and will never, ever go back to regular bedding. I forbid it!

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_04] Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash msheet with code msheet. That's bowlinbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash msheet, code msheet to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. That is why we are here today. Wow.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_04] And yeah, and I think this is a really interesting point that essentially you won more unique votes in your DA election in DeKalb than Sarah Palin did when she won the gubernatorial race for Alaska. In terms of scope, that's pretty wild.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, when you think in our urban areas and not just Atlanta, but DAs across the country, many of them get more votes than our U.S. senators just from the size of the geographical areas that they represent.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_04] That's huge. I mean, so going to December, there's this upset in the race. There are allegations of corruption. You're dealing with your own race yourself and then, you know, winning that and going forward. What can you tell us about December 15th, 2000? And sort of maybe take us through that day for you upon hearing that something has happened to Sheriff-elect Derwin Brown.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00] Well, Anya, if you talk to enough trial lawyers, you know, there's something we call trial mode. And I had been in trial mode all week. My family recognizes trial mode. Don't talk to dad when he is in trial mode because you're not going to get an answer from him. And I was in trial mode that week. My sister and I were trying to, a terrible, tragic case where an infant had been left in a car seat in the Georgia Sun and had died. And we were prosecuting the grandmother who had left the child there.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00] And she said she had just forgotten when she went to work. We never heard her story until trial. And after hearing her story, I said, you know, I'm convinced she really didn't. It was out of routine. She wasn't normally taking care of the child. And she was genuinely upset about it. And as I try to emphasize in this book, Anya, a lot of people have misperceptions of prosecutors. Our job is not to win cases. Our job is to seek justice.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00] And sometimes justice requires that people are acquitted, especially people who are acquitted who are innocent. So anyway, it had been a long week. And the jury came back that afternoon. I remember it's a very cloudy, cold December day. Georgia's not necessarily a cold state in December, but it was that day. It was in the 40s and started to rain. I got home and home was very welcoming. You know, I smelled the Christmas tree. You know, family was home.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00] But I was exhausted. I mean, like I said, I've been in trial mode all week. And lay down on the couch and got a page to get to the hospital right away that Derwin Brown had been shot. That's all the page said. And I picked up my chief assistant and my chief investigator met us at my office, which was a short distance away. And I was thinking that Doran had accidentally been shot. These things happen.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00] I was just expecting, you know, to see him sitting up in the bed when I got there. When I got to the hospital, it was a whole different scene. There were at least 25, 30 law enforcement cars with lights on. I was ushered into a private room where they were waiting for me. And then I went to see Doran's body and pulled the sheet back. And it's the first time I'd ever seen a human being with so many bullet holes. He was actually shot 12 times.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00] I'd never seen a body rival like that. And I guess I should go back and explain why was an urban district attorney, you know, at a crime scene like that. When I took office, Anya, we developed a protocol that required my presence at two crime scenes. One was if a police officer was killed in the line of duty. That potentially was going to be a death penalty case. And I would be handling that case.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00] I wanted to know as much about it as I possibly could from the minute it happened. And so I was on call anytime a police officer was killed. Also, if a police officer killed someone in the line of duty, it was going to be my job to decide whether or not it was a justified shooting. Once again, and I didn't go alone. I always went with an investigator. And I didn't interfere with the police investigations. I wanted to see. I wanted to observe.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00] And if necessary, you know, answer any questions that they may have. That was the reason I was at the hospital that night. Never in a million years would we have thought that the sheriff elect would have been the one murdered. But as soon as the lawman was killed and it happened to be sheriff elect, the protocol required that the DA be immediately notified. And that's why I went there that night. By that time, it was pouring rain.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00] And the title of the book, A Rainy Night in Georgia, which goes back to the song that Tony Joe White wrote in the late 60s when he was living in Marietta, Georgia. It was made famous by Brooke Benton. But after I saw the body, I wanted to go to the crime scene. When we got to the house, never forget this. That's why so many of my students want to be crime scene investigators. It's a fascinating process.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00] The yard was already divided with stream and squares. And they were meticulously carefully looking at every piece of evidence that could be collected. And I have this distinct memory of seeing roses on the front porch. I thought, wow, somebody's already gotten there to place roses in Derwin's memory.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00] What I did not know was that Derwin had been shot at his front porch and he was holding a bouquet of roses for his wife because it was her birthday. We spent a good time there. And I also remember asking one of the crime scene investigators. I said, why are there so many red flags? And he said, well, J-Tom, that's where we found a shell casing. The red flag means a shell casing. I mean, my gosh, how many shooters were there? Because there were red flags everywhere.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00] All those shell casings on you came from the same gun. Ultimately found 16 shell casings. We then went to the morgue, Dr. Gowett, who's a friend, also a phenomenal medical examiner. Jerry has testified all over the country in homicide cases.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00] When you do an autopsy in a case where someone has been shot or stabbed, they take x-rays of the victim and put them on these great big screens around the autopsy table. And seeing multiple projectiles in Derwin's body, Dr. Gowett was explaining to us that several of the bullets had been pass-throughs, but there were still a lot of bullets still lodged in the body.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00] And having been to autopsy before, I decided at that time I did not want to see the rest of it. I had just seen Derwin the week before. We'd had dinner together. We were not friends, but we were professional acquaintances. And I'd never seen an autopsy of somebody that I knew in person. And I thought, this is not one I want to watch. And so I arranged to meet Dr. Gowett the next day to go over the autopsy. We went to a Waffle House.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00] By the way, Waffle Houses were real big in the South, aren't you?

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_05] I love Waffle House, so yeah.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00] Everybody's been to a Waffle House. Either going or coming in the night, right? We went to Waffle House. I met with other law enforcement officials, the director of public safety, the chief of police. We sat around a table in the back, and we were astonished. I mean, we had no leads. Now, when I was at the hospital, I told them that I had somebody in mind that I had been investigating as part of the corruption.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00] And would they get a tail on that person as quickly as possible? And I talk about that in the book because that ends up being a key factor.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_04] What was going through your head at this point? Because it's like, this is a public official. This is a sheriff-elect. But, you know, I mean, it's one thing that kind of really speaks to me in the book is like, it's this subversion of democracy. It's not just that this man who dedicated his life to public service is murdered, this man with a family. I mean, it's a horrible thing. But it also represents like kind of an attack on our system.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_04] And as a district attorney, what was that like to grapple with as a public official yourself?

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00] You're exactly correct. That is one of the themes in the book. Lord Acton, a British historian, once said power corrupts and absolute power tends to corrupt. Absolutely. And that is a theme in this book. We supposedly have checks and balances in this country. They're not always necessarily working. But when an elected official is killed right before swearing in, that is an attack on our democratic system.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00] At the time, we didn't realize how close it was to a political assassination. But that ultimately is what we discovered. And also during the time, and I really became cognizant of how important any of the First Amendment is in our country. Another reason we're here today is because of the First Amendment. Our forefathers put the First Amendment first, and you're a journalist, as you know, because it's so important.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00] Democracy cannot work without the First Amendment. Had Dale Cardwell's investigation never occurred, Dorsey would have been reelected, and none of this would have ever happened. But, you know, Justice Brandeis said that sunshine is the best form of disinfectant. And that's—and again, I hope that this book, which has several themes, but the First Amendment, I think, is one of the paramount themes in this book.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00] Freedom of the press, investigative reporting. I think in the last 25 years, the way things have gone in journalism may share the same concern. Investigative reporting is not what it is today that it was back then.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yes, I agree. Today is the best time to be a local corrupt politician. It's the golden age for that, unfortunately, because the card wells of the world have been laid off in many cases.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly. Exactly. In Atlanta, we do not have the investigative journalists that we used to. I mean, that would really dig. And they would also develop relationships, which, as you know, takes time. Investigative reporting costs money by the big corporations that run our media. And when you cut expenses, you're going to start with our investigative reporters, unfortunately.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. For me, A Rainy Night in Georgia does represent, though, it's like the different prongs of ensuring accountability and transparency. And it's through the guise of this murder case. It really reads like a thriller to me, which I loved. But it's like you have the journalism side of kind of starting to sound the alarm on something. You have a horrible tragedy that happens. But you also had, you know, Derwin Brown also sounding an alarm. And then you have the follow-up from you and all of these different law enforcement to really dig into what happened.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_04] And it's sort of it's just the different modes that we have for, I think, trying to prevent and root out corruption. But you're so right. It's disheartening. And I often I often lament to Kevin about the kind of lessened state of the media these days. But this book really does show why it's so important.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00] As I was writing it, a lot of memories came back. And Dale, who I'm very good friends with still today, what was very helpful in writing the book. He's never exposed who the deep throat was in the jail. And, you know, I appreciate that.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00] But again, he would not have had a story on it if there was someone who had the guts to alert the media and probably put his or her own life and certainly career at stake. But which goes back to now that deep throat in that case was the number two in the FBI. He risked everything. So it's not just a journalist.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_00] It's the people who I try to teach my ethics class do the right thing, even if the consequences could be great.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. One thing I want to ask you is about kind of this investigation, because I think the book makes it clear that this is a sprawling investigation. You have all these different institutions and entities coming together and collaborating. And you're at the center of it because you're personally working on this case. What was that experience like in terms of trying to ensure that this is a collaboration that's going to be kind of going forward instead of devolving into chaos, especially since this is such a high profile case for you?

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_04] There's a lot of public and media scrutiny going on.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00] I think, fortunately, I knew that during my two previous terms, I had developed a close working relationship with law enforcement. We trusted each other. We didn't always agree. They didn't always agree on my decisions, but they knew I would make them part of the process. And I relied on them. When this occurred, I knew we were going to need a task force with different agencies involved.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00] Also, if you know anything about law enforcement and prosecutors, we all have big egos. So I had to be careful and recognize that the chief of police, who I had tremendous respect for, I wanted to make sure that he knew he was in charge. But I wanted to be a part of it. Also, which is unusual, is that in almost all cases, the district attorney's office stays out and waits for the police to do an investigation, make an arrest.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00] And then the district attorney decides whether or not to prosecute. We made it clear, and everybody agreed, that there would not be any arrests until I personally decided that we had enough evidence to convict. The requirement for indictment is probable cause, but that wasn't going to be enough.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00] If we were going to try somebody for this murder, I wanted to make sure, or I believe, as you know, I wasn't always correct in this situation, but that we would have probable cause. So our task force included a member of my office every day at every meeting as we moved on. Ultimately, as you know, I became a lot more involved. That was not by design. That was completely by accident.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00] Tell us more about that. Well, there was an unrelated shooting that we believed at the time had nothing to do with the murder of Sheriff-elect Brown. But the police did a phenomenal job and was able to tie one of the suspects in that shooting to the sheriff's shooting. And because of that, we were able to get some cooperation that we needed to break the case.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00] The co-conspirator who was willing to flip against the other co-conspirators would only talk to me. And that's another thing I bring out in the book, how unusual it is for a district attorney to conduct the lead interview of a suspect. I was not a political elected district attorney. I had been assistant DA for many years and a DA for eight years. I had worked in a lot of cases. I'd seen a lot of interviews.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00] I knew how to ask the questions. And I had two people right there with me, my investigator and my chief assistant. So it wasn't just solely me, but together we interviewed that suspect. And I think it also helped that I knew everything about the case before I went into that interview. I had the knowledge that I needed to conduct the interview. And, you know, ultimately talking with children helped me prepare. Because when people ask, well, what were you thinking? What are you thinking?

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00] I talked to so many kids that if I did not put up that wall of compartmentalization, a lot of people accuse prosecutors and law enforcement of compartmentalizing. Well, we've got to. You know, if you've got a child who's eight years old telling you about being raped, you've got to stay back and listen. And so that helped prepare me for this interview. I did a lot of listening and not many questions.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_04] One thing I kept thinking when reading this book, and it's just I think we often see, you know, fictional depictions of like a district attorney doing all this stuff or being in danger or, you know, interviewing people themselves. And it's like, you know, you watch that and you're like, that's not what happens. And that literally happened to you. Like this whole thing is is so I mean, it is one of the wildest things I've ever read about. I guess let's start with the danger that you were actually in over this case.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_04] Can can you talk a little bit about that and about what it was like finding out that you were possibly a target as well?

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00] For an attorney to break confidentiality under our code of ethics, an attorney can only break confidentiality when he or she believes that it is necessary to prevent physical harm. And it is the code of ethics says may is not required. So one of my former assistants called me and said he needed to talk to me and he didn't want to come to my office.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00] He came to my home. My family was home, but they were not in the room when I talked to him. And he said, don't ask me any questions, but you need protection. And I know you don't carry a weapon. You need to start carrying a weapon. I know you don't wear a bulletproof vest. You need to wear a bulletproof vest. And like I said, don't ask me any questions.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00] That was a signal to me that he knew something that he couldn't talk about, but that he was following the code of ethics, which was that he could share that information if he believed someone was in possible physical harm. So there are a lot of thoughts that went through my head. One was that my chief investigator, Carol Ellis, had been warning me for months. So I had to be like, you know, oh, you're right. I'm sorry.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00] But the other thing was, you know, how much danger was my family going to be in? A wife, two children. And so we devised a system that as soon as I left the house, I was under protection. I did carry a gun. I had a bulletproof vest. I never went anywhere outside the house with at least one other person with me who was armed and ready to shoot if necessary.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00] I also tried to avoid having my family, particularly my children, around me. If anything happened to me, that's part of job. But the children, my wife, should not be hurt because of their dad's job. So we were together in the home a lot. But I tried to avoid us being together. Should anything happen to me, I didn't want them to be hurt in a crossfire.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00] The other thing that I thought about often was we had to keep this very private. So only a handful of people knew about it, and they all worked for me. They were my investigators. These people were my friends. We had been colleagues before I became their boss, and I was still their friend. I knew the children. I knew their families.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00] And to have someone walking next to me who was always with me, who could die because they were with me, that was very disturbing, to be honest with you. It was not like somebody coming off the street from the police department and being a casual acquaintance. These were people who I knew that they were possibly risking their life to protect my life.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I feel like the book captures that sense of almost being under siege for doing the job of being district attorney, but also the people around you who are supporting that role. I mean, it's really—it must have been absolutely surreal for you to kind of go from, you know, the normal part of the job, which I'm sure brings you into some contact with some really horrible people and kind of extreme situations.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_04] But going from that to suddenly having to carry a gun and do all this and being concerned about someone coming after your children, I mean, it's—I mean, wow.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00] I knew not only did I have to carry a gun. My chief investigator had to take me to the range to teach me how to shoot the gun.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_04] How did that go?

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00] I'm glad I never had to use it.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_04] It's really—I mean, it's bizarre and it's—I mean, it also just—I mean, it shows you the erosion of, you know, the situation just being so out of control. I did want to ask you, you know, around this, throughout the investigation and after the death of Sheriff-elect Brown, what was the public reaction like? And also, what was the reaction within law enforcement? Because, I mean, of course, Sheriff-elect Derwin Brown was a member of law enforcement.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_04] And how did that impact those two kind of groups, the general public and the law enforcement community in DeKalb County?

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00] Anya, I remember getting home that morning. My wife grew up in DeKalb County, went to public schools in DeKalb County. We moved back to DeKalb County to start our careers and raise our families. And when I walked in the house that morning, she said, what is happening to our county? And I think that was the thought of a lot of people. How on earth could we have a Sheriff-elect murdered just three days before he was going to take office?

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00] Law enforcement knew that we had to build a case. We also knew that if a murder is not solved within the first three or four days, it could take a long time. So the public was getting frustrated. They were getting frustrated that we didn't have a suspect. They were getting frustrated that we didn't have any arrests. I probably said some things publicly I shouldn't have said.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00] One time I was talking to a reporter, and he said, well, how is the investigation going? I said, well, right now it's dead in the water. Of course, and I wasn't thinking. That was just me talking to a reporter that I've known for years. And I know that everything I see is on the record. But I wasn't thinking about, oh, my gosh, it's going to be the headline in the newspaper the next day. I can't tell you how much grief I caught because of that. And it was deserved grief.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00] But it was also the honest truth. Everybody's wondering, what's going on? I said, we don't have any leads. So we do not have probable cause. Some of us had to follow cutter ethics that say, you know, we don't arrest suspects. We arrest people where we have probable cause that they're guilty of a crime.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. I do want to get into a little bit about how you did have a breakthrough and how there was a subsequent trial. And I do want to encourage, there's so much we're not getting into that's in the book. I would really encourage our readers to get it and read it. It's really, really interesting. And I think it speaks to a lot of issues that feel very pertinent right now around corruption and ethics and accountability. In terms of, though, what, you know, this kind of breakthrough, how was it, if you could kind of, without going into too much,

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_04] maybe get into a little bit about how it narrowed in on not only the public corruption angle, but this kind of contentious sheriff's election angle and how you all, as the investigation, was able to kind of go in that direction?

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00] So, when the crime occurred, in Georgia, our grand juries do not have investigative powers. We only go in with an indictment where there's been an arrest and we seek an indictment based on the evidence. To get an investigative grand jury requires a majority of the sitting judges to vote.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00] And so we asked for an investigative grand jury to look at the corruption that investigation had started before Doran was murdered and also look at the murder. The judges wisely divided it into two grand juries. We were finding a lot about the corruption, more than we ever imagined. And part of that was that we were able to get people to talk because Dorsey was no longer sheriff.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00] And using subpoenas and confidentiality, because you can never discuss what's said in a grand jury proceeding, we were able to build a corruption case. As you alluded to, the murder case came about totally by accident, that one of the co-conspirators wanted a deal and wanted to flip. And I made that decision late at night after talking to him with the others, that if there was going to be any prosecution in this case for the murder,

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00] I was going to have to bite the bullet and say, we will make a deal and go forward. After we made our arrest, though, what really turned a lot of this case around was, again, that mail is Hatsaville. And so I tell my students and my own kids, it's not so much what we know, it's who we know. And I got a phone call from a very prominent attorney in Atlanta named Emmett Bondurin.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00] Emmett is one of the top ten trial lawyers in the country. He argued his first win in the U.S. Supreme Court when he was only 26 years old. And he's like your husband. He's a civil attorney. And so getting a call from Emmett about this case, I'm going, thank you, Emmett, but why are you calling me? And he said, well, somebody in my firm may be able to help you.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00] And to be honest, it's only out of respect to Mr. Bondurant that I agreed to meet with his attorney. I think the last thing in the world I want to hear from is a civil attorney when I got the biggest criminal case in my career. And that's how we met John Floyd and learned about RICO. RICO, to me, had always been something that the feds used in mafia cases. You know, it came about in the Nixon administration.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_00] And that's what it was made for, was to be able to put a large web of corruption together and target the kingpin, the mafia head boss. RICO, the Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act. After that, though, every state passed a RICO statute. So what? I can tell you there was not a prosecutor in Georgia that could even spell RICO. It wasn't something that we dealt with. The statute for murder, Anya, says,

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_00] the unlawful taking of the life of another human being with malice of forethought. It's one sentence, maybe 15 words long. The dadgum RICO statute is like 20 pages long. You know, and so we never, never used it. And so Mr. Floyd came in and he said, I think I can help you draft a RICO indictment. And I'm going, why would you know about RICO? He says, because I use it all the time.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_00] Civil attorneys use RICO to go after the same sometimes bad guys, but they use it to get money. He explained to us how we could use RICO in our corruption case and tie it in. And to be honest with you, that's, again, that was a changing point in our strategy on how we were going to proceed in this. We were the first prosecutor's office in Georgia, outside the feds,

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00] to use RICO against a corrupt public official.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_04] How were you able to construct that RICO case? What did it kind of, if you could kind of almost conceptualize it for the listeners, what did that end up looking like for Dorsey?

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00] Well, we had over 100 witnesses in the grand jury testimony. And we had prongs going out everywhere. We had this kind of corruption. We had that kind of corruption. And so we're wrestling in our heads. How do you put all this together? And Floyd was able to take all those bits and pieces and put it under one umbrella called RICO. So this one charge was 52 pages long. You know, usually indictment is a couple of paragraphs.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00] This one was 52 pages. And by putting all these witnesses, all this corruption under this one umbrella, it made it not only easier for us as prosecutors, but also easier for jurors. We didn't have jurors looking at 200 different allegations. We had them looking at one allegation that involved 200 different instances. And under RICO indictments, they only had to find two of them.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00] Also using the RICO is how we were able to show the motive for the murder, to be honest with you.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you kind of put this together, you know, I mean, you mentioned, we talked a little bit about Dorsey in the beginning. It's on the surface like a very impressive man, worked some really big cases, law enforcement career, whatnot. You know, like, why did he do this? I know the why having read the book, but at the same time, like, why do you think he made this decision to order the end of Derwin Brown's life as he did?

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, like, we talked about power. We talked about the corruption, the money. Was it simply to stop his crimes from coming to light? Was there something more personal about it? What are your thoughts on that?

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_00] My thought is that this thing goes back as long as mankind. It is hard to give up power. Once you have power, it is very hard to give it up, even in a democracy. And that people will go to great lengths, whether it's a democracy or any other kind of government, that they will do what it takes to stay in power. We've seen it in our own country. We've seen it in other countries.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_00] And that's a reality. It goes with greed, lust, everything else. It's the once someone has the power to control other people, they don't want to give it up.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_04] And then what do you stand out memories from this kind of landmark trial where you're implementing this RICO strategy for the first time? I imagine that put some pressure on, given how important the case was, doing this for the first time. But what are some things that come to mind when you remember that?

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00] We did not realize at the time, to be honest, that we were setting a precedent for other district attorneys, not only in Georgia, but throughout the country, to say, here is a tool that you can battle corruption with. It makes, to be honest, some politicians nervous because using RICO, you have a broad swath at going against corrupt public officials.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_00] As we were going through it, I did have the thought, watching John Floyd argue before the judge why RICO is a legitimate charge in this case, is that if the judge throws this charge out, no one will try it again. It's time-consuming. It's hard to take skilled lawyers. I did not draw that indictment, meaning I did not write that indictment.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_00] Mr. Floyd, along with my chief assistant, actually penned the indictment, and I saw how hard they had to work at it. You're not going to do that if a judge isn't going to allow you to go forward. So because Judge Becker allowed us to go forward with a RICO case against a corrupt public official, it opened the door for other DAs and prosecutors throughout the country to do the same.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_04] And then, I don't think it spoils anything to necessarily note the outcome, is that you won. You were able to convict Sidney Dorsey. And again, people should read the book because we're kind of going over the broad brushes here. But I think...

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00] Well, to get from point A to point C was a lot. Yeah, that's what the book is about. Anybody can Google the case. There have been seven documentaries on this case. In fact, the seventh one is coming out this month. But there's never been a book written about it. And the other thing is you and your husband know true crime well. There are not that many true crime books written from a prosecutor's perspective and written in first person.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_00] I look forward to reading your book, but I'm glad you and Kevin were not involved in the murders.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_04] We were more involved than we wanted to be. It's great. Kind of got sucked into that one. But I really appreciate it and hope you like our book. I loved your book. I really would encourage everybody to read it. As you said, this journey is incredible. What you went through as a district attorney in this is also the emotional story of like, you know, you're dedicating your career to public service and then suddenly like people might be trying to kill your family. That's really...

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, it's disturbing and it's also... I don't know. I mean, it's a pretty extraordinary story. After the conviction, when did you feel... I mean, like, did life go back to normal? Can you talk about that? About like, were you able at some point to like, not carry a gun everywhere and take off the bulletproof vest and hang out with your family out of doors? Or I mean, tell me about that process. Yeah.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I took the bulletproof vest off. I unholstered the gun, gave it back to my chief investigator, and I had not fired a shot since then. Yeah. Things moved on. I think because of that trial, though, and I'd been a career prosecutor, trials like that don't come up along that often. And so I was looking... I wanted to stay in public service, but I wanted to find a new career.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00] So I left that and eventually ended up, as you know, a professor teaching criminal law to undergraduate students here in North Carolina and spent a lot of time working with young people. But that is an experience, so I will never forget how we ended up writing it. People say, well, how did this happen? Why are we just now writing this book? After the appeals were over, I knew the appeals were going to have to be over.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00] I didn't want to write a book and then, you know, have to retry a case. So I put everything together, all the pieces, wrote an outline, got the transcript, all the media that I could. And I wrote two authors, Southern authors, John Grisham and Pat Conroy. I said, I'll be glad to help you in any way I can, but here's a story I'll need to write.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00] I never heard back from Grisham, but I near hear back from Conroy. And I still had the notes somewhere. He said, J-Tom, this is your story. You need to write it. So I put everything away. You know, time moves on. When I open up my own practice, you know, it really got to be more than I ever imagined time consuming. Then I started teaching and something called COVID hit in 2020.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00] And I live alone on top of a mountain and I'm isolated from the world. And I was really isolated during that period of time. And there's just so many heights a man can take and so much bourbon a man can drink when he's got to do something. So I put pen to paper. I tried to channel Pat Conroy. I knew he wrote his books longhand using cursive and legal pads and mop block pens.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00] So I just started writing on legal pads until I had the story done. And then that was the first ideation. And that was 2020. The book is more over that period of time. Thank goodness. But that's how it ended up where we are today. But I had a lot of help. A lot of help with this book. Hiring an editor, John Capua, was a big help. And a lot of input in this book. My family.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00] Oh my gosh. They brought out things that I didn't know. You know, because as I was trying to insulate them, they were insulating me from their trauma. So a lot of what you read in the book, I learned because of writing the book.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_04] Tell me about that. What are some of the things you were able to learn? And how did that affect you knowing what your family was going through and like kind of learning that all these years ago?

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_00] Well, my daughter was 15 and my son was 11 at the time. Very impressionable ages. She had turned 16 by the time the murder occurred. So as you know, any 16-year-old wants to get in a car and drive. And we said, you can't go alone. You've got to protect our family here. Do not let your little brother be alone. My son would not walk in front of a window. He would crawl every time he passed the window. So there were, you know, there were things that I saw impacted our family.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_00] Again, as I learned about. And I'm so glad we wrote the book together because they were able to, like I said, shed light on things that I was not familiar with.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. And your daughter's pointed out something pretty insightful here that living on top of the mountain, is going into the woods and living on top of a mountain alone, is that connected to this experience? Like, do you feel like you maybe kind of want to get away from everybody after going through something like this?

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. After a career in Atlanta, I loved Atlanta. I loved DeKalb. But I was ready to slow the pace down tremendously. I love in a town that only had 7,500 people instead of 700,000.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_04] Definitely. Definitely a bit of a shift. Also, I'm informed that you are the owner of a brewery on the Appalachian Trail in the woods.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_00] You and Kevin are more than welcome to come south. And I'll be glad to buy you a beer at our brewery. It's called the Lacey Hiker. So many of my friends and colleagues from Atlanta moved to the mountains. I got a job teaching. And they said, why don't we open a brewery? We like drinking beer. And we did. And I think it's a great craft brew. But, yeah, we go get hikers from the Appalachian Trail, bring them to our brewery, feed them, give them a beer.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00] And they go in town, get a place to sleep and take them back to the trail.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_04] That's so freaking cool. Okay. So, full disclosure, neither Kevin nor I drink. But we would totally stop by for like maybe a soda or something. Oh, yeah.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_00] We've got plenty of soda. It's an ambiance of the mountains and the hikers and everybody else.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_04] I still love a good brewery. You know, chill there, eat some pub grub and have a nice soda. And that's really cool. Perfect name, too. Okay. That's brilliant. So everyone needs to check that out if you happen to be on the Appalachian Trail. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, I mean, you kind of breeze through some of my book questions in terms of the process and what this was like for you.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_04] So, but, you know, I guess, is there anything else you can share about, like, how did you go about, I guess, because it's such a comprehensive book and, you know, it's written from your perspective. But you're getting all this information in there. How were you able to organize it so that it reads really much more like kind of like a thriller, like where you're kind of going alongside? It's a very exciting story. How were you able to, I guess, kind of achieve that?

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_00] When I first wrote the manuscript, I wrote it as a lawyer. And lawyers, I know now, are linear thinkers from point A to point B. I'm sure your husband will tell you that. And writing legal briefs does not teach you how to write dialogue. And I wrote something that looked more like a statement of facts than a novel. And people who I shared with the original manuscript with said, this was a great story, but you need help.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00] I think another thing is, as I alluded to, is that prosecutors particularly compartmentalize our feelings. I wrote it like a lawyer would write, you know, with very little feelings, very little emotion and very little dialogue. So my chief assistant, who was chief assistant at the time, he said, J. Tom, I read your book. You need professional help. And he wasn't talking about therapy. So we did hire John Capua.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_00] You know, he would email me. He's in New York. And he would look at a chapter. He said, first, write dialogue. And then he would write me on a note. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? What were your thoughts as you looked at Derwin's body on the gurney in the hospital? My wife also, she was the fact checker. She was a corporate lawyer. And so she, you know, is real into detail. I like the broad picture.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00] And so I would, you know, write this story and then she would fact check. And she's like, no, it wasn't like that. It was like this. It was like that. So there was, like I said, a lot of input going into this book. It morphed, again, from a state and the facts written by a lawyer with the help of very good people into a novel that people hopefully will want to read.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_04] I think they should want to read it. It's really, it's very, very good. And I have a couple of broad questions to close this out. The first one being, you know, this is in many ways I feel like, you know, the biggest case of your career as district attorney and your career in prosecution in general. I suppose, what would your advice be to young people who might be listening, who are maybe thinking about law school or thinking about wanting to become a criminal attorney or specifically a prosecutor? What would your best advice for them be?

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_00] Well, first thing is, Anya, thank you for asking that question. One of the messages in this book is public service. I think that message has been lost, maybe because of what is going on in the country today. I look back. Shortly before he died, Gregory Peck did a fundraiser in Atlanta for Atlanta Legal Aid and sat on a stage. It was Mr. Peck and his wife.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_00] And I'll never forget somebody asking him, Mr. Peck, what do you think was your most profound, important movie? And he said, To Kill a Mockingbird. And we asked why. He said, because that's why you're here today. Is that movie inspired your generation to go out and do good? Okay. And then I had to ask myself, what has our generation done for really your generation?

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_00] And so I hope there is a message here to go out and do good.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. And then what would your advice be for maybe attorneys, prosecutors specifically, who are at the heart of a very large, very publicly scrutinized trial and case as you were? What would your best advice for dealing with that be?

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_00] Take your case seriously, but don't take yourself seriously. Always be a professional. Do as we were taught in law school. Do the right thing. And sometimes the right thing is the hard thing to do. But when you make a choice to be a prosecutor, you make that choice to always, as I said from the very beginning of this interview, to seek justice, whatever that may be.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_04] Final piece of advice question would be, what would your advice be for people who have been at the heart of a true crime case like this, like that is, that they want to write about in terms of, you know, I think you did a really great job bringing your own experiences and making a terrific book. You know, for anyone else who may have experienced something like that and then wants to write about it, what would your best advice be?

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_00] Journal. Make yourself every day if it's just a sentence to write it down because our memories fade. And boy, when I was writing this book, thank goodness I had a lot of help and I had transcript and notes and things like that. Because when you're in the middle of it, you'll think, I'll never forget that. But it's the details. As you'll see in this book, the details are important. And the only way you can do that is from journaling. I think all of us should draw anyway, but I think, especially if you think about writing

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_00] something, a true crime like you and Kevin have done, do the best you can in keeping a memorandum of things that went on.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. And so you don't end up like me not being able to read your handwriting, work on your pen manuscript in the run up to that. Are you going to get into some problems?

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Well, no one will read my original, original manuscript because no one can read my handwriting.

[01:07:10] No, exactly.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, my gosh. Well, this has been so delightful, J. Tom. You've been a wonderful guest. I wanted to ask you, is there anything we didn't ask you about your story, writing this book or the case in general that you think it's important to emphasize? Actually, I just thought of one. What do you want people to take away from the book? You mentioned the public service angle, but what else do you think it's important for people to take away from this awful story about this man losing his life so senselessly because of public corruption? What do you think we should kind of take away from that?

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_00] Well, as Martin Luther King says, the arc of justice bends eventually toward the truth. It may take a while, but it does. Good will prevail over evil. It's a hard road to get there. And sometimes you can get very frustrated and wonder, will we ever make it out of this mess we're in? But we will.

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_04] Well, thank you so much, J. Tom. Anything else that I didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention?

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_00] No, this is the first time I've done this, Anya. This has been so much fun. Thank you.

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, my gosh. Well, I would never have known that. You seem like a very experienced podcast guest. You did a great job. And it was so nice to know.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, this is my first.

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_04] That's amazing. Well, thank you for choosing the murder sheet then to talk to.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_00] We look forward to it.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_04] Awesome. Thanks to J. Tom Morgan for coming on the show. A Rainy Night in Georgia, A Lawman's Brutal Murder, A Rogue Southern Sheriff, and A Prosecutor's Quest for Justice is a great read. It's available for purchase now wherever you get your books, and we'll include a link in the show notes.

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_04] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_04] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.