The Cheat Sheet: Deceit and Defamation

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[00:01:53] Content Warning.

[00:01:54] This episode contains discussion of murder, rape, and graphic sexual violence

[00:02:00] as well as the disappearance of a child.

[00:02:04] Today on The Murder Sheet, we're going to be covering four cases.

[00:02:07] One in Minnesota, one in Pennsylvania, and two in the state of New York.

[00:02:12] One of these cases is going to be an unsolved disappearance.

[00:02:15] Another, a serial killer case.

[00:02:17] One will be a homicide that did not ultimately lead to any sort of conviction.

[00:02:22] And we'll also be talking about a rape and attempted murder incident

[00:02:26] that became quite infamous many years ago,

[00:02:29] but essentially has now led to a defamation case

[00:02:32] that at one time had the potential to truly influence

[00:02:36] the true crime docuseries environment.

[00:02:39] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:42] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:44] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:46] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:02:49] interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:52] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:54] And this is The Cheat Sheet, Deceit and Defamation.

[00:02:58] Where do you want to begin?

[00:03:48] Let's start out in Long Island.

[00:03:50] So everyone who is following the case against Rex Huerman,

[00:03:55] a former New York City architect living in Massapequa Park, Long Island,

[00:03:59] who is accused of being the infamous Long Island serial killer,

[00:04:03] is probably aware that some pretty big news just happened in that case.

[00:04:07] I'm talking about two new indictments against Huerman

[00:04:11] involving two new murder victims that are being attributed by the investigators to Huerman.

[00:04:17] So this is huge news.

[00:04:19] To recap for anyone who's not as familiar with this case,

[00:04:22] on July 14th, 2023, Rex Huerman was charged with the murders of Melissa Barthelemy,

[00:04:29] Megan Waterman, and Amber Costello.

[00:04:32] I remember when we heard that there was some kind of arrest in the case,

[00:04:36] we were in the, I believe, lobby of the Shelbyville Courthouse, right, Kevin?

[00:04:40] Yes, we were.

[00:04:41] And I think I got up and jumped up.

[00:04:43] Yeah, I remember that.

[00:04:44] I was pretty happy.

[00:04:45] And weirdly enough, David Hennessey was also in the lobby,

[00:04:47] so some odd foreshadowing there.

[00:04:50] Do you remember that?

[00:04:51] I remember all of that.

[00:04:53] He wasn't hanging out with us.

[00:04:56] He was just there.

[00:04:57] We were like, is that David Hennessey in the corner?

[00:05:00] We were there to cover another case, the Schuck case.

[00:05:03] Right, the Schuck case.

[00:05:04] So that was odd foreshadowing.

[00:05:07] I think I'll always remember where I was when I heard about the break in the case

[00:05:12] because this is something that a lot of people around the world,

[00:05:15] a lot of people also in New York State where I'm from,

[00:05:18] you know, have talked a lot about over the years.

[00:05:20] It's very upsetting seeing so many women lose their lives and no one be held accountable.

[00:05:25] So it's a big deal locally.

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[00:06:46] Stories are at the heart of true crime.

[00:06:48] Whether the spotlight centers on a detective solving a murder case,

[00:06:52] an attorney making a winning argument in court,

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[00:09:02] So then another killing was attributed to Hugherman by the investigators on January 16, 2024.

[00:09:10] He was charged with the murder of Maureen Brainerd Barnes.

[00:09:13] Now, each of those four women were discovered in 2010 along Gilgo Beach,

[00:09:19] along the Ocean Parkway in Suffolk County.

[00:09:23] And so they're all found together.

[00:09:26] Each was bound and found in burlap sacks.

[00:09:30] So we're seeing like a similar signatures at the scene.

[00:09:33] And these two new cases don't follow those patterns,

[00:09:38] but they really open up the possibility that Hugherman could have been responsible for a lot of these killings.

[00:09:45] Because as we've talked about in the past, there are there's the Gilgo Beach four.

[00:09:50] And then there's a lot of other cases that could be connected.

[00:09:53] Some people have said maybe there's a second serial killer.

[00:09:55] But now we're sort of seeing this is all coming together.

[00:09:59] So he was just charged two second degree murder charges,

[00:10:04] one for the murder of Jessica Taylor between July 21st and 26th, 2003,

[00:10:10] and the other for the murder of Sandra Castillo on or about November 19th or 20th, 1993.

[00:10:17] So we're going back to the 90s.

[00:10:20] And what the reason we're seeing this documentation in these indictments is

[00:10:25] the prosecution is trying to ensure that the judge does not grant Hugherman bail.

[00:10:29] They're saying that, you know, he could try to flee the country.

[00:10:32] These charges are serious, highly violent.

[00:10:35] You know, we found even more victims. So please don't give him bail.

[00:10:39] So let's go into some of these new cases and sort of why police believe that Hugherman is the perpetrator, if that's OK, Kevin.

[00:10:49] Sure. And first of all, are you surprised that they're even bringing up more charges at this point?

[00:10:54] No, I think it makes a lot of sense.

[00:10:56] And I think everybody suspected that the murders he was charged with were not the only murders he was likely to have done.

[00:11:04] So you were in the camp of sort of thinking that this is just the beginning and some of these other cases might be attributed to him.

[00:11:09] Yeah. I'm not going to lie. I at times I gravitated toward that position.

[00:11:13] At other times, I really thought maybe these are not related because they seem different.

[00:11:18] And I tend to have a kind of an aversion to connecting things prior to law enforcement and prosecutors saying this is connected.

[00:11:26] But now that this has opened this up, I mean, part of me hopes some of these other ones are connected just so there can be some like lack of, you know, dispel the uncertainty, maybe get some answers to families.

[00:11:39] Anyways, so in 2003, a woman walking her dog off of Halsey Manor Road in Manorville, Suffolk County, New York, finds a body.

[00:11:48] I'm going to read quotes from this document. Just keep in mind, it's pretty graphic and upsetting.

[00:11:53] So if you want to skip ahead a few minutes, that might be advisable.

[00:11:57] This whole section is going to be graphic and upsetting.

[00:12:00] Quote, Miss Taylor was found lying on her back with her legs bent underneath her.

[00:12:04] Notably, the victim was decapitated and both of Miss Taylor's arms had been severed from her body below her elbows.

[00:12:10] Moreover, a tattoo on the victim's torso had been severely obliterated by a sharp object.

[00:12:16] Investigators believe the mutilation of the victim's tattoo, decapitation of her head and dismemberment of Miss Taylor's arms were acts perpetrated by Rex A.

[00:12:25] Huerman to do inter alia inhibit the identification of the victim via fake facial recognition, fingerprints and or tattoo identification.

[00:12:35] During the initial investigation in Manorville in 2003, the victim's head, arms and hands were not found at the scene and their location remained unknown to law enforcement for approximately eight years.

[00:12:45] On March 29th, 2011, Miss Taylor's skull, hands and forearm were discovered along Ocean Parkway just east of Gilgo Beach, Suffolk County, New York.

[00:12:56] Notably, Miss Taylor's remains were located on the same side of the road from where Maureen Brainerd Barnes, Melissa Bartelome, Megan Waterman and Amber Costello, herein the Gilgo Four, had been found just several months prior in December 2010.

[00:13:11] Each of the Gilgo Four victims as well as as well as the skull, hands and forearm of Miss Taylor were recovered on the same side of the road and at the depth of within 50 feet from the edge of the parkway.

[00:13:23] Furthermore, Miss Taylor's remains were located less than a mile from where the Gilgo Four were discovered.

[00:13:28] So who is Jessica Taylor?

[00:13:31] She was a sex worker working in Midtown Manhattan.

[00:13:33] She was last seen alive July 19th, 2003 in New York City.

[00:13:39] At 8.41 p.m. on July 21st, 2003, she called her mother.

[00:13:43] They talked for seven minutes.

[00:13:44] She was supposed to go up to Poughkeepsie on July 25th to celebrate her mom's birthday, which is heartbreaking because she never made it.

[00:13:52] She had one shorter call after that with somebody, but her phone kind of goes cold from there.

[00:13:58] And after she didn't show up for her mom's birthday party, her mom called the police and reported her missing.

[00:14:04] So it turns out that investigators identify that Heuermann worked right around where she used to, quote unquote, streetwalk or kind of look for clients as a sex worker.

[00:14:15] And he was, you know, investigators say that they have information that he was present in Midtown Manhattan the day she disappeared around July 21st.

[00:14:27] And also canvassing around Halsey Manor Road where the body was found indicated that a witness saw a dark colored Chevrolet pickup truck back into the same wooded area where she was found.

[00:14:45] And that would have happened probably 13 hours before the 911 call about the body being discovered.

[00:14:53] It turns out that Heuermann had a 2002 dark colored Chevrolet Avalanche pickup truck.

[00:14:59] It was green. And he bought that on in 2002.

[00:15:03] So, yeah, it's she's they saw his car basically.

[00:15:07] And. Yeah.

[00:15:11] That's that's obviously pretty damaging to him, but it certainly gets worse.

[00:15:17] Turns out they have his like tech records, his phone records.

[00:15:22] He was searching a Newsday article called Cops Seek Help in IDing Manorville Body like a few days later and was then trying to look up how he could sell and swap out his Chevrolet Avalanche, trying to find specifically ones of a different color than his dark green color.

[00:15:42] Basically, yeah.

[00:15:43] Being concerned that maybe his car had been cited.

[00:15:47] In addition to that, there were hairs on Jessica Taylor's remains.

[00:15:53] And those are essentially linked to Heuermann.

[00:15:59] There's like a ninety nine point nine six of the North American population would be excluded from these hairs and he is not.

[00:16:08] So when you're dealing with stuff like that, you're never going to have scientists say, oh, it's definitely him.

[00:16:14] Right. But you are going to have that like pretty much everyone else is excluded.

[00:16:19] But this guy who also has a bunch of other evidence against him is not.

[00:16:23] So that's that's why that's significant.

[00:16:25] But it's important to not overstate the science, I think.

[00:16:28] Right. That's fair.

[00:16:31] So, yeah. So that's why they believe Jessica Taylor is connected.

[00:16:36] What do you think about that evidence?

[00:16:39] It's pretty overwhelming.

[00:16:41] It's I would say damning.

[00:16:43] Yes, but there's more because there's another victim.

[00:16:46] Who is that? Oh, also, I should say that his family, while Jessica Taylor was going missing, was out of town.

[00:16:52] They were at some place called Smugglers Cove Resort or Smugglers Notch Resort in Jeffersonville, Vermont.

[00:16:58] And the investigators include a lot of phone records showing that he was calling them from his house in business.

[00:17:03] So they can't act like, oh, we don't know, you know, that there's records that prove that they were up there.

[00:17:09] He was alone in the house.

[00:17:11] And obviously, when we're talking about having the opportunity to do this and abduct and murder women, you know, unless you're saying that the whole family is involved, you need to have an empty house.

[00:17:23] So he had that.

[00:17:24] So November 20th, 1993 in Southampton, Long Island in Suffolk County, two hunters found the body of 28 year old Sandra Castilla.

[00:17:35] She was lying on her back. Her arms were stretched over her head, legs spread apart.

[00:17:39] A shirt pulled over her torso and head.

[00:17:42] She suffered stab wounds to her face, torso, breasts, left thigh and vaginal area.

[00:17:48] She was a native of Trinidad and Tobago, and she was living in New York.

[00:17:52] So female and male hairs were found on her body in 2014, long before Huerman is even a name spoken in this investigation.

[00:18:02] These hairs were sent out for testing and unique mitochondrial DNA profiles were extracted.

[00:18:10] And they were actually looking at somebody else for this.

[00:18:12] They're looking at all their Long Island based serial killer, John Bit-Bitrolf.

[00:18:17] Sorry if I'm saying his name wrong.

[00:18:18] But he was excluded.

[00:18:21] They weren't a match.

[00:18:23] When Huerman came up on the radar, it was one of those things where it was again, 99.96 of the North American population could be excluded.

[00:18:31] He could not be.

[00:18:33] And who are the female hairs belonging to then?

[00:18:35] Well, it turns out that in the early 90s, Huerman was living with a different woman, not his current wife or his, I guess, I guess they're getting divorced.

[00:18:44] Maybe they have been divorced at this point.

[00:18:45] But Asa Ellerup, this is a different woman and police are not naming her.

[00:18:51] They just call her Witness 3 in this document.

[00:18:53] So I can, you know, we can imagine a previous wife, a previous girlfriend.

[00:18:57] And she cooperated with the investigation.

[00:19:00] She gave a buckle swab to get her DNA in there.

[00:19:04] And the hairs came back to her.

[00:19:06] I think it's really important to state that the female hairs that these seen people have said like, oh, well, would that mean women were involved?

[00:19:13] I mean, it could, but not necessarily.

[00:19:16] I mean, we all shed hairs, right?

[00:19:18] So when you're in close proximity to someone who's a wife or a girlfriend, it's possible to transfer their hairs to a scene.

[00:19:28] And hairs aren't like saliva or anything like, you know, it can kind of get picked up on your clothing.

[00:19:33] They can kind of, you know, I mean, I joke that I shed like a, you know, a Labrador retriever or something, you know, like it just kind of gets everywhere.

[00:19:40] So I think that can happen.

[00:19:42] And it doesn't mean anyone else is involved.

[00:19:44] It just means that it shows proximity, I guess.

[00:19:47] How do you think about that?

[00:19:49] Yes, certainly.

[00:19:51] I know there have been times I've been out and about and I've noticed like a hair belonging to you on my shirt.

[00:19:56] Better be mine.

[00:19:58] That's all I'll say.

[00:20:00] Let's move on.

[00:20:02] You busted.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:05] I'm just going to say that because I don't want people to necessarily jump to the conclusion of like, oh, there's a serial killing couple or something.

[00:20:10] Because I don't think it points to that.

[00:20:12] So in addition to that, we know the Heuermann, according to investigators, was also home alone at that point.

[00:20:19] It turns out that, you know, by September in September of 1993, two months before the Castillo murder, witness number three moved out of the house.

[00:20:29] And also prior to that, Heuermann's mother had moved out of the house.

[00:20:33] So he's alone again.

[00:20:36] And investigators talked about in the recent raid, rather in the recent raids when he was arrested, they seized 350 approximately electronic devices.

[00:20:49] And this is what they had to say was on them.

[00:20:51] Quote, an analysis of these devices has revealed Heuermann's significant collection of violent bondage and torture pornography currently dating back to 1994.

[00:21:00] Pornographic images accessed by Heuermann include but are not limited to breast mutilation, vaginal torture, sex substitution, i.e. penetration with an object, sexualization of decapitated women, bondage and whipping, which notably and largely coincide with how the remains of Sandra Castillo, Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack were discovered.

[00:21:19] So they're adding Valerie Mack, another woman whose remains were found in this area to the list.

[00:21:25] It sounds like even though he's not been charged with her murder.

[00:21:27] To wrap up, I just want to quickly talk about something that really horrified me to read.

[00:21:37] And I feel like I'm pretty jaded at this point.

[00:21:40] So I think that says something.

[00:21:42] Investigators found a document that had sort of like been deleted or like recycled, but it was still there because as we know, just because you delete something doesn't mean it's off your computer necessarily.

[00:21:53] Oftentimes it needs to be overwritten by another file in order to be truly gone.

[00:21:58] And this was not.

[00:22:00] This was a list of that investigators believe was Heuermann's sort of like planning document about how he was going to go about killing women.

[00:22:10] And just the casual language really bothers me because.

[00:22:17] It's almost like, you know, making a list about problems you're dealing with at work or how to get better at work or like, you know, making a grocery list on what you need for the week.

[00:22:26] It's so casual, but it's about something so horrifying.

[00:22:31] This is this is how it's structured, at least in the first part.

[00:22:35] He talks about problems.

[00:22:37] There's a list of problems, DNA, tire marks, bloodstains, fingerprints, plastic bag, cat litter, witness trace source of supplies, foot shoe prints, photos, misleaders, police stop, truck stop, fingerprints in gloves, plastic bags matched to box hair and fiber.

[00:22:58] What does that sound to you like, Kevin?

[00:23:00] It sounds like someone who has taken a very matter of fact methodical approach to committing violent acts.

[00:23:08] Yep.

[00:23:09] Yep.

[00:23:11] Next column supplies, booties, lye or acid police scanner, rope cord, saw slash cutting tools, hair nets, photo film, burn can foam drain cleaner, body wash slash wipes, tarp slash drop cloth, medical gloves, bag slash tape, large Alec clips, ratchet ratchet cargo strap.

[00:23:35] Again, sounds like murder tools, cleanup tools, a murder kit.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:42] Then there's two called DS.

[00:23:46] Now, police believe DS stands for dump sites.

[00:23:49] So it talks about Mill Road.

[00:23:51] There's one DS to question mark, question mark, question mark, dumpster site next to recon dumpster locations.

[00:23:59] He's talking about where he would end up throwing the bodies, essentially.

[00:24:04] And then he talks about TRG.

[00:24:06] Police believe that refers to targets or potential victims.

[00:24:10] Talks about T1 Megan question mark.

[00:24:13] Small is good.

[00:24:15] Tunk parentheses black.

[00:24:18] So talking about a woman named Megan and talking about someone who's unknown but is a black woman, seemingly.

[00:24:25] And the phrase small is good appears to refer to.

[00:24:28] You want your victims to be of a smaller stature in order to overpower them.

[00:24:34] So it's horrifying.

[00:24:37] There's a section of pre prep police believe that's where he's kind of figuring out like what to you know, all the things he needs to do in order to do these kills.

[00:24:48] So vehicle inspection.

[00:24:50] Engaging the victims, doing reconnaissance on the victims, locating victims, looking at weather reports, doing reconnaissance on video cameras in the area.

[00:25:02] And then prep that's more of right before the killings, which is setting up stage holding area build table cross point crossbar hard point.

[00:25:14] So what are those words mean?

[00:25:15] Well, police say that in sexual suspension bondage, a hard point refers to a fixed attachment point to support a person being suspended.

[00:25:24] So this is talking about basically suspending people tying them to tables.

[00:25:29] It's horrifying.

[00:25:31] And again, the matter of fact way of describing it is just like blows my mind.

[00:25:35] Post event is a column that includes destroy file, change tires, burn gloves, dispose of pics, have story set.

[00:25:44] So that's pretty self evident, I think.

[00:25:48] Notes, the note section includes bullets spur of the moment cover Stockholm syndrome.

[00:25:55] The more you do, the more clues you give.

[00:25:58] Look at the painting.

[00:26:00] What? Why? Who?

[00:26:02] Organized versus disorganized.

[00:26:03] Page 162 sex substitution.

[00:26:07] Page 163 PG page 100 and 175 mutilation disorganized.

[00:26:15] A lot of these words are spelled wrong, so I don't know what to make of that.

[00:26:18] But he's referring to the book Mindhunter by John Douglas.

[00:26:26] Do you want to explain what that is for people who are not familiar?

[00:26:28] He was an FBI profiler, and I believe that book became the basis of a series on Netflix.

[00:26:34] Didn't it? Yeah.

[00:26:35] It talks about serial killers.

[00:26:36] He interviewed a lot of different serial killers over time and sort of profiled them.

[00:26:40] So this is seemingly a serial killer.

[00:26:44] Basically using that as a textbook.

[00:26:47] And to be very clear, like that's not John Douglas's fault.

[00:26:50] I mean, like whatever.

[00:26:52] Whatever.

[00:26:55] Evil prompts somebody to get involved in this.

[00:26:58] They're going to get information one way or another.

[00:27:00] It's not you know, it's not like you shouldn't have written that book.

[00:27:02] It's just it's just interesting because people you know, this is a serial killer who allegedly gravitated towards that to, like, learn from it and figure out how he could get away from it.

[00:27:14] It's just very disturbing.

[00:27:15] Very disturbing.

[00:27:17] He's like taking notes on what he can do.

[00:27:19] It sounds almost to me when I'm reading this that he's trying to throw investigators off by by having elements that are both organized and disorganized.

[00:27:28] So it's like so they kind of get the wrong idea through a profile.

[00:27:33] Right.

[00:27:35] Talks about body prep, wash body inside and all cavities, remove trace evidence, fingerprint slash hair.

[00:27:43] Turns out he didn't do that exactly.

[00:27:46] Remove trace DNA, remove ID marks, tattoos, marks, remove marks from torture, remove head and hands package for transport package for transport.

[00:27:56] And he's talking about women's bodies.

[00:27:58] Yeah, it's very upsetting.

[00:28:00] It really is.

[00:28:03] And this is something he wrote down like tips for himself to remember things to remember.

[00:28:07] Sound travels, i.e. bird outside.

[00:28:09] Control the amount of air in and out to control the noise made.

[00:28:12] Get sleep before hunt.

[00:28:14] Too tired creates problems.

[00:28:16] Hit harder.

[00:28:17] Too many to hit to take down.

[00:28:19] Consider a hit to the face or neck next time for takedown.

[00:28:22] More sleep and noise control equals more playtime.

[00:28:25] Use push pins to hang drop cloths from ceilings, not tape.

[00:28:28] Use heavy rope for neck.

[00:28:30] Light rope broke under stress of being tightened.

[00:28:33] Take down slash pickup.

[00:28:35] Hunt too long, seen an area too long.

[00:28:37] Remember, don't charge gas.

[00:28:38] Recon for vid cams in pickup area next time.

[00:28:41] I don't know.

[00:28:43] It just, you know, it's horrifying.

[00:28:48] It really.

[00:28:50] Something about this just really is a very upsetting case.

[00:28:53] I mean, package patch packaging playtime.

[00:28:56] And he's talking about he's talking about killing women.

[00:28:59] I mean, and this is devastating.

[00:29:01] I mean, this this I mean, we've talked about strong cases, weak cases.

[00:29:06] This case against Heuermann is devastating.

[00:29:11] Insurmountable, in my opinion.

[00:29:13] Without more information, maybe there's something we're not considering.

[00:29:17] Maybe there's some trick the defense is going to use to get a lot of it

[00:29:21] thrown out. But beyond that, I mean, this is just it's devastating.

[00:29:25] This is like, I don't know.

[00:29:28] I did. I yeah.

[00:29:30] I mean, we talk about like little pebbles being stacked up on one another.

[00:29:33] This is a case where there is a massive like mountain of evidence sitting.

[00:29:37] I don't know how you I don't know how you move a mountain.

[00:29:41] But the defense would have to move mountains in order to, I think, make this

[00:29:45] happen. And this question, this point you raise about evidence is actually

[00:29:49] a good way to transition to our second case.

[00:29:53] This is a case out of Minnesota.

[00:29:55] And my source for this was the coverage I found from the Associated

[00:30:00] Press. And the basic question at the heart of this

[00:30:04] is Anya just told us about a case where there

[00:30:07] is a huge amount of evidence against the defendant.

[00:30:11] What do you do when the evidence you have

[00:30:15] isn't that massive? What if it's more of a close call

[00:30:19] and it's hard to tell what exactly happened?

[00:30:23] And this goes back to a case involving Trooper Ryan

[00:30:27] Londrigan, who killed a man named Ricky Cobb

[00:30:32] the second in a traffic stop last year.

[00:30:35] It was on July 31st of last year.

[00:30:39] The troopers pulled over Cobb, who's a 33-year-old man.

[00:30:43] In the course of that traffic stop,

[00:30:47] the troopers were asking Cobb to get out of the car.

[00:30:51] And at that point, Cobb shifts his car into gear

[00:30:56] and moves it into the drive position, takes his foot off the brake

[00:31:00] and starts to slowly move forward.

[00:31:03] At that point, Trooper Londrigan reaches for his gun.

[00:31:07] Cobb stops the vehicle.

[00:31:11] Londrigan yells at Cobb to get out of the car.

[00:31:15] Cobb takes his foot off of the brake again.

[00:31:20] And then it's unclear what happened.

[00:31:25] And Londrigan fires his weapon twice at Cobb.

[00:31:28] Fatally injuring him.

[00:31:32] And this is a case where the district attorney

[00:31:36] in that county, a woman named Mary Moriarty,

[00:31:40] made the choice to file murder charges against Londrigan.

[00:31:44] And what makes it a bit complicated

[00:31:48] is that a few months ago,

[00:31:52] a woman named Mary Moriarty

[00:31:55] became aware that Londrigan was going to claim

[00:31:59] that just right before he fired his weapon at Cobb,

[00:32:03] Cobb made a movement to try to grab Londrigan's gun.

[00:32:07] And there is body cam footage

[00:32:11] and the body cam footage shows Cobb does indeed

[00:32:15] make some sort of move.

[00:32:20] And it's a bit confusing.

[00:32:23] Cobb does indeed make some sort of movement

[00:32:27] right before Londrigan fires.

[00:32:31] But it is not clear what the movement is,

[00:32:35] what he was trying to do.

[00:32:39] In other words, this video footage of the movement

[00:32:43] that Cobb makes, it does not prove or disprove

[00:32:47] Londrigan's claim that Cobb was reaching for the weapon.

[00:32:50] And it's a bit confusing.

[00:32:54] And it's a bit confusing because

[00:32:58] it's a very close call.

[00:33:02] And the thing is, when prosecutors are making decisions

[00:33:06] about what cases to bring and whether or not to pursue a case,

[00:33:10] you can't really have close calls.

[00:33:14] Close calls always have to go to the defense.

[00:33:17] And if the defense actually approves something in a court of law,

[00:33:21] you have to walk away from the case.

[00:33:25] And sometimes that's difficult.

[00:33:29] Prosecutor Moriarty doesn't seem to be happy

[00:33:33] that she had to drop these charges.

[00:33:37] But ethically, her hands were tied.

[00:33:41] And certainly, the Cobb's family has issued a statement

[00:33:44] that they're not happy with these charges being dropped.

[00:33:48] On the other hand, Londrigan's attorneys feel

[00:33:52] that charges never should have been brought in the first place.

[00:33:56] So it's an interesting conundrum when you're evaluating evidence.

[00:34:00] I agree.

[00:34:04] We've seen again and again, troop crime cases,

[00:34:08] sometimes high-profile troop crime cases.

[00:34:11] And you're like, oh, I don't know how to deal with these charges.

[00:34:15] This should all be charged.

[00:34:19] And some of the same people then turn around and say,

[00:34:23] oh my gosh, how do we get these wrongful convictions?

[00:34:27] And it's like, that's how you get them.

[00:34:31] You don't want prosecutorial overreach.

[00:34:35] You don't want prosecutors trying marginal cases.

[00:34:38] I'm just saying generally speaking.

[00:34:42] In this case, it seems like the facts are very ambiguous.

[00:34:46] And you can't file charges when the facts are ambiguous

[00:34:50] because as Anya says, that's a way to get wrongful convictions.

[00:34:54] There has to be more clarity.

[00:34:58] And the purpose of the legal system is to try

[00:35:02] and either acquit or convict people.

[00:35:05] It's not fishing expeditions to try to figure things out.

[00:35:09] Yeah, and I think a lot of people understandably,

[00:35:13] if something is upsetting or they feel like someone must be guilty,

[00:35:17] they want action. They want action from prosecutors.

[00:35:21] And I don't think that's an unreasonable impulse.

[00:35:25] It's just, I think the system is supposed to work in a specific way.

[00:35:29] And if people start just stretching it,

[00:35:32] because it's like you're trying to force something through

[00:35:36] and maybe you're a really good public speaker and the jury buys it

[00:35:40] and then turn around in 10 years, it turns out there's new information

[00:35:44] and it proves that somebody was wrongfully convicted.

[00:35:48] I just think people need to understand

[00:35:52] that there's sometimes a limitation of what the system can and should do.

[00:35:56] And I'll say that it seems like in Minnesota,

[00:35:59] this is a situation where everybody loses

[00:36:03] because the trooper faced murder charges and all the stress associated with that

[00:36:07] for months and the charges are dropped.

[00:36:11] And the deceased man's family had hopes that charges would be carried through to trial.

[00:36:15] They're not going to get that. I think in a situation like that,

[00:36:19] I would have hoped that there would have been more investigation done

[00:36:23] prior to the decision to file charges

[00:36:26] in which the prosecutor could have found out about this claim

[00:36:30] that Lonergan was making and taken that into consideration

[00:36:34] before even making a decision to file.

[00:36:38] Yeah, I'd be curious to know the ins and outs of why that was not clear

[00:36:42] and what exactly happened with that.

[00:36:46] It's an interesting case, though.

[00:36:50] It's a very interesting case.

[00:36:53] We don't know how Cobb was killed, even if we don't know all the details.

[00:36:57] But the next case, unfortunately, we just don't know much.

[00:37:01] But we do know that recently there have been some bombshell claims made

[00:37:05] that we'll unpack.

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[00:38:45] So my sources for this are USA Today and KDK.

[00:38:49] I'm talking about the case of Cherry Mahan.

[00:38:53] This is a little eight-year-old girl on February 22nd, 1985.

[00:38:58] She disappeared after leaving the school bus.

[00:39:01] She lived in Winfield Township in rural Butler County, Pennsylvania.

[00:39:06] She was very excited that day.

[00:39:08] She's going to go on a play date with her friend.

[00:39:11] Her school bus dropped her off only about like 50 feet away from where she needed to go.

[00:39:15] So she had like, she lived on a very long kind of hidden dirt drive.

[00:39:21] And her stepfather, Leroy McKinney, heard the bus pull up, but it was really nice out.

[00:39:27] So he was sort of like, I'll go out and meet her.

[00:39:29] And then he was like, I'll let her walk up.

[00:39:31] It's so nice out.

[00:39:33] And her mom's there cooking dinner, Janice.

[00:39:38] And they wait about, you know, a few minutes and she doesn't come in.

[00:39:42] So Leroy goes out to search for her.

[00:39:45] He finds tire tracks on the drive and no sign of his stepdaughter.

[00:39:50] She's gone.

[00:39:52] So he searches, he and the wife search for about 20 minutes and then call the police.

[00:39:57] So it turns out that after she got off a bluish green Dodge van, possibly 1976 in terms of year,

[00:40:06] with a decal, some sort of art or mural of a skier on a snow-capped mountain on the side,

[00:40:14] was sighted along the road, sort of pulled up.

[00:40:18] So she walked past it.

[00:40:20] And then the suspicion is that after the bus left, the van kind of went and got her.

[00:40:25] Unfortunately, no one knows what happened from there.

[00:40:29] No one was ever charged with this.

[00:40:31] There are no answers.

[00:40:33] She was never found.

[00:40:35] And if you're in a van I mentioned, please call investigators at 724-284-8100

[00:40:43] or Pennsylvania Crime Stoppers at 1-800-4PA-TIPS.

[00:40:49] So just keep that in mind.

[00:40:51] Janice McKinney, the girl's mother, she's since told the media that Sherry was the result of a rape

[00:40:59] that happened when she was 16, but she doted on this girl.

[00:41:02] She loved this girl.

[00:41:03] The reason the mom is saying that, because she wonders if associates related to Sherry's biological father

[00:41:10] could have done something.

[00:41:12] The biological father was not in the picture, but she wonders if that was somehow connected.

[00:41:19] So anyways, that is all to set up some developments that happened recently

[00:41:23] in a Facebook group called Memories of Sherry Mahan.

[00:41:26] On May 23rd, 2024, a woman, an adult woman, posted there claiming to be Sherry.

[00:41:33] She was the result of a rape after harassing and bullying a lot of other members of this group, apparently.

[00:41:39] Now she's saying, no, I'm the missing girl.

[00:41:42] And understandably, Janice has come out saying this affects her very badly

[00:41:48] and she does not believe this woman.

[00:41:50] In addition, there have been three women over the years who've come forward claiming to be her missing daughter.

[00:41:55] And...

[00:41:57] What's wrong with people?

[00:41:59] Thank you. Thank you.

[00:42:00] You know, you told me a little bit about this case earlier.

[00:42:02] It reminded me there was a case in Indiana where a girl named Shannon Sherrill went missing.

[00:42:09] And about 17 years or so later, a woman appears and says, I'm Shannon Sherrill.

[00:42:16] In this case, I believe the family initially believed her.

[00:42:19] It wasn't Shannon Sherrill.

[00:42:21] It was an act of cruelty.

[00:42:23] I believe that woman ended up doing some prison time.

[00:42:26] You should do prison time if you do this.

[00:42:27] You should be, frankly, in a mental institution if you do this.

[00:42:30] We've talked on the show about the Lindbergh kidnapping.

[00:42:33] Certainly over the years, many people have claimed to be the Lindbergh baby.

[00:42:39] I...

[00:42:41] It's cruel. It's cruel.

[00:42:43] It's cruel and sick.

[00:42:45] And if it's a mental illness thing, then you owe...

[00:42:47] The people doing it owe it to themselves and everyone else around them to work on that

[00:42:51] instead of inflicting cruelty on people who are already going through the worst hell imaginable.

[00:42:59] Now, with that said, the world is a strange and bizarre place.

[00:43:04] And we're all aware of occasions when people thought dead reappear and they're alive.

[00:43:11] And so if you happen to be in a situation where for whatever reason

[00:43:15] you think it is plausible that you are actually someone else,

[00:43:19] you don't go on Facebook, you don't issue a press release.

[00:43:24] What you should do is contact the police agency that has investigated that crime in the past,

[00:43:31] talk with someone there and let them investigate your claims

[00:43:35] and handle it in a private and sensitive way.

[00:43:38] Yeah. Anyone who actually does feel like they could be, you know,

[00:43:41] a child who went missing, maybe some sort of wrongful adoption, whatever.

[00:43:45] I think anyone acting in good faith would do something like that privately.

[00:43:49] Do some DNA testing, check it out.

[00:43:52] There are ways of handling it where you can get answers easily

[00:43:55] and you're not just seeking attention.

[00:43:57] But I think a tell for this is the attention seeking.

[00:44:01] It's not the... Like if you want answers, DNA, police, going behind the scenes.

[00:44:07] If you want attention, go on Facebook, talk to the newspaper, you know, post on social media.

[00:44:12] And that is the red flag for me because, you know, there are other situations,

[00:44:16] you know, where it's like an Ariel Castro type abduction where, you know,

[00:44:21] people thought dead are alive.

[00:44:23] But in those situations, there's no ambiguity about who they are.

[00:44:26] In a situation where it's a child gone missing, there could be because like memories could fade

[00:44:31] and a new identity could be sort of adopted.

[00:44:35] But ultimately, it's so important to just, you know, treat these families with respect.

[00:44:40] And can I just say, like, sometimes people... I don't understand this.

[00:44:43] Like people will be like, well, this person has this story in a true crime case.

[00:44:47] But why would they lie?

[00:44:49] I... Have you met people?

[00:44:52] Like that just seems like the most naive thing.

[00:44:55] Like I hear that a lot. Like, why would this person lie?

[00:44:58] People lie all the time for attention and for stupid reasons.

[00:45:01] It's not... People lie to us constantly.

[00:45:04] You know what I mean? Like...

[00:45:06] I know what you mean.

[00:45:08] I want to talk about this because I'm still like unpacking this.

[00:45:10] I think I may have mentioned on the show before. I'm not sure.

[00:45:11] But we get, you know, tips in the Delphi case at times.

[00:45:15] We heard from a woman who claimed to be a searcher and she told us this.

[00:45:19] We sat on the phone with this woman for an hour.

[00:45:22] Never get that time back.

[00:45:24] Never get that time back where she told us this frankly BS story about what she saw that day.

[00:45:30] And, you know, at the time there was no way to really like know if she was lying or not.

[00:45:35] My BS meter was flashing red.

[00:45:39] As was mine.

[00:45:41] And I was like, I'm not sure if she was lying or not.

[00:45:43] But now we know it's just nonsense.

[00:45:45] And I would love to talk to her and be like, what is wrong with you?

[00:45:48] What is actually wrong with you?

[00:45:50] And like how can you help yourself and help others by not doing that anymore?

[00:45:54] Because it's just like a need for attention and it's pathetic.

[00:45:59] And it's like...

[00:46:01] And that's kind of I think in the same strain of this claiming to be a long missing child.

[00:46:05] I think maybe claiming to be the actual child is the most extreme version of this

[00:46:09] because it's truly centering the person as, you know, the long lost child that everyone wants to find.

[00:46:16] But there's other versions.

[00:46:18] It's like making up witness sightings, making up connections to the case,

[00:46:22] inserting yourself into the case in some way.

[00:46:24] And yeah, I'd love to hear from that woman again because, you know, you know what you did.

[00:46:29] And, you know, why?

[00:46:32] I mean, I just I'm fascinated by it on some level because it's...

[00:46:36] Like, I don't know.

[00:46:38] And the thing is, like we corroborate stuff before we run it.

[00:46:42] So, I mean, there wasn't a danger of us just being like, OK, and then like running it.

[00:46:46] But at the same time, it's like I think this kind of when people put this sort of misinformation

[00:46:52] and this selfishness into the bloodstream of a case, it's really unhealthy and it should be shamed.

[00:46:57] It should be shamed and discouraged.

[00:46:59] And yeah.

[00:47:00] Anyways, so that is my Pennsylvania case.

[00:47:05] And I just, you know, again, if you have information on the real case, please reach out to police

[00:47:10] because it's just heartbreaking what that family has been through and what they continue to go through thanks to selfish people.

[00:47:16] So with all that said, let's move on.

[00:47:20] And I ask that you indulge me a bit because this is a little bit different than the type of case we usually talk about on the show

[00:47:28] because there is a violent crime at the heart of it.

[00:47:31] But that's not really what we are going to discuss.

[00:47:34] And I just say my source for this was articles I found in Puck on Deadline and some court filings I got from Pacer.

[00:47:42] So there's a variety of ways that we who are interested in true crime consume information about crime.

[00:47:52] Obviously, the smartest people, the elites, consume information through podcasts.

[00:47:57] The murder sheets specifically.

[00:47:59] But we also get information about true crime in other ways, you know, newspaper articles, magazine articles, documentaries and also docudramas.

[00:48:10] And the question we have to ask ourselves is how accurate are these docudramas?

[00:48:19] And are they leading us to opinions that may be uninformed or not completely true?

[00:48:24] And I raise this because the Central Park Five case.

[00:48:29] Now, I think we can all agree without going into a play by play detail of it that that was a case that things went very, very wrong and people got convicted of rape and were exonerated for it.

[00:48:46] So like a jogger was jogging in Central Park and I believe a group of young black men were subsequently convicted of the rape and attempted murder.

[00:48:55] Yes. And those convictions were overturned because someone else came forward and said it was me and DNA evidence proved that.

[00:49:04] So obviously something went wrong.

[00:49:07] Something went very, very wrong in the investigation of this.

[00:49:10] And that's something we should all think about and research and try to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen again.

[00:49:18] So a few years ago, Netflix did a docudrama about the case called When They See Us.

[00:49:26] And it was done by Ava DuVernay.

[00:49:30] And it portrayed a woman named Linda Fairstein in a very negative way.

[00:49:40] Linda Fairstein at that time had a position of authority in the prosecutor's office in New York, and she was involved with the prosecution of the crime.

[00:49:55] And she was upset with how she was portrayed in this docudrama.

[00:50:02] And she actually filed a defamation suit.

[00:50:05] So that if you file a lawsuit, you're pretty upset.

[00:50:08] Just casual lawsuit.

[00:50:11] Now we throw words like defamation around a lot.

[00:50:15] Some people think defamation means just anything negative.

[00:50:17] Like, oh, if I say, you know, Kevin's a bit of a doofus, you know, is that defamation?

[00:50:22] Is that slander? Is it even untrue?

[00:50:23] So defamation.

[00:50:27] I'm just going to let that go.

[00:50:29] He's just not going to pick that one up.

[00:50:31] Under New York law, defamation has to have for a statement to be found to be defamatory, it has to be found to contain certain elements.

[00:50:42] First of all, it has to be a defamatory statement concerning the plaintiff.

[00:50:47] So let's say Anya decides to say that I have a tendency to steal cereal.

[00:50:58] Obviously, that's a statement that is false and would make me look bad.

[00:51:02] And only a fool would make such a claim about someone if it wasn't founded.

[00:51:07] So if she made that statement, okay, we have the first element of it.

[00:51:12] The second element is that the statement that is defamatory has to be transmitted to a third party.

[00:51:19] So in other words, if Anya just comes and shakes me awake and says, Kevin, you stole cereal and then doesn't tell anyone else, that doesn't really harm me.

[00:51:29] I'm very discreet.

[00:51:31] But if Anya goes all over town and repeats that I stole cereal, if she goes on a podcast and says I stole cereal, if she publishes articles saying I stole cereal, then the defamation is getting out there.

[00:51:45] And it's reaching more people and it could be potentially harmful.

[00:51:50] There has to be fault.

[00:51:52] So Anya has to be the one responsible.

[00:51:54] The statement has to be false, which in this case it would be.

[00:51:58] There would have to be special damages, which I think if a person with my upstanding reputation is accused of stealing cereal, that could make me look very bad indeed and be quite damaging.

[00:52:12] But on the other side, if you say Anya doesn't even know who Cato Kaelin is, that's not defamation.

[00:52:17] Even if it's unflattering to me and it damages my reputation within the true crime space, it's true.

[00:52:22] It's true.

[00:52:23] I'm documented to not know who that is.

[00:52:25] So that's not defamation.

[00:52:26] It can be unflattering, but it has to be untrue.

[00:52:29] And it can't be an opinion.

[00:52:31] It can't be like you saying Anya is dumb to not know who Cato Kaelin is because that's just your opinion.

[00:52:37] And also a fact.

[00:52:39] Screw you.

[00:52:42] I walked into that one, folks.

[00:52:44] And also there's a higher standard when the defamation involves a public figure.

[00:52:51] In those cases – because the reason for this isn't because we want to put – make it easier for people to spread lies about public figures.

[00:53:01] The reason is we want people to feel free to make as many comments about public figures as possible without worrying that they're going to face a defamation lawsuit.

[00:53:10] And so when you're dealing with a public figure, the requirement that the statement is made with malice.

[00:53:19] In other words, that means that when Anya makes the statement that I stole cereal, she has to either know already that it's completely untrue and know that she is lying.

[00:53:33] Or she has to have a reckless disregard for truth, which basically means if she didn't know it was untrue, she should have known if she had just done some basic stuff.

[00:53:41] Due diligence. Right. Yeah.

[00:53:44] So those are the standards and they are pretty high to meet because it's pretty difficult to establish malice.

[00:53:52] And so this is why you often see defamation lawsuits tossed out because it is very hard to prove reckless disregard of truth and malice.

[00:54:03] So then we come to this case.

[00:54:06] And in this docu series at this point, Ms. Fairstein was complaining about five scenes in particular where a character on the docu series named Linda Fairstein is portrayed as doing things that the real Linda Fairstein didn't do.

[00:54:30] Defamatory things.

[00:54:31] And just to give you a taste, a sample of what one of these things are, I'm going to read you some dialogue that the Fairstein character said on this docu series.

[00:54:46] I'm quoting.

[00:54:48] I'm quoting.

[00:54:50] I have some of them in descriptions of others, but I need all of them.

[00:55:14] So that speech makes her sound racist.

[00:55:17] Yes.

[00:55:18] It makes her sound like she wants to go up to Harlem and have the police round up every young black guy they see and bring him to police headquarters to be basically accused of murder and rape or attempted murder and rape.

[00:55:32] And it turns out that she didn't do that because for one thing, as a prosecutor, it's not her role to even give orders to police.

[00:55:42] She doesn't have the authority to order them to go up into Harlem and round people up.

[00:55:47] And if she tried to do that, they wouldn't have done it because she doesn't have that power.

[00:55:52] And there is no indication that anything like this ever happened.

[00:55:58] And yeah.

[00:56:00] And so the judge actually went so far to say that a reasonable betrayer of fact could find that in that scene, the creators of the docudrama acted with a reckless disregard to the truth.

[00:56:16] Oh, man.

[00:56:17] So he's basically saying a jury could reasonably find that she was defamed here.

[00:56:23] I'm curious about the behind the scenes, about how a scene like this comes to exist.

[00:56:27] There's five scenes in particular.

[00:56:29] I don't want to go into all of them, but another one that I found interesting I'll mention briefly.

[00:56:34] There is a scene where Fairstein is portrayed discussing some DNA evidence that was found at the last minute.

[00:56:41] And she's suggesting, well, let's keep this from the defense as long as we can and just surprise him with it at the trial.

[00:56:48] And also, that's not true.

[00:56:49] Because there was DNA evidence found.

[00:56:52] The DNA evidence was found not long before the trial.

[00:56:55] I think the trial was scheduled for June.

[00:56:57] DNA evidence was found by an NYPD lab technician on March 28th.

[00:57:04] On March 29th, the defense was informed.

[00:57:07] So in this docudrama, she is portrayed as basically trying to hide this DNA evidence, and that didn't happen.

[00:57:15] Oh my God. Yikes.

[00:57:18] And not only that, there's evidence of like script notes where the producers and others were saying, oh, let's make this Fairstein character, let's make her look bad basically in order to highlight problems with police.

[00:57:32] And we can all agree that there were some serious problems with the investigation.

[00:57:37] But when you are making things up or changing the facts to support your case, you're really hurting people.

[00:57:42] And so as I say, the judge looked at these five scenes and said these five scenes do rise to the level of potentially being found defamatory.

[00:57:53] Yeah.

[00:57:54] And so there should be a trial.

[00:57:58] And this potentially had really huge ramifications.

[00:58:03] Netflix has done lots of docudramas.

[00:58:06] Many people are trying to sue over some of them because they're saying the facts portrayed in these docudramas aren't accurate.

[00:58:14] They're defamatory. They make me look bad.

[00:58:16] They're telling lies about me.

[00:58:18] And if people start winning those lawsuits against the production companies, then we are going to start seeing either less docudramas or maybe docudramas that try to have a more rigorous view towards the truth.

[00:58:32] So you're saying nothing of value would be lost?

[00:58:35] No, I'm serious.

[00:58:37] I hate these things.

[00:58:39] I consider these docuseries totally morally odious.

[00:58:42] I do.

[00:58:43] I think if you cared about the truth – I mean, listen, we all know documentaries can also be incredibly biased and bad.

[00:58:51] I'm not holding up documentaries as some sort of cure-all.

[00:58:54] But I'm saying documentaries at least have the goal of trying to get at the truth.

[00:58:59] Docu-series have the goal of trying to fit in real life horrible things happening and slicing them up into some sort of BS Hollywood narrative.

[00:59:09] And here's my problem with this, Kevin.

[00:59:12] I'm curious what you think.

[00:59:15] I mean, I'm not so familiar with this case that I know every bad thing or every good thing that Linda Fairstein did with this.

[00:59:22] I think it's possible that she did some bad stuff and that's not counted in the lawsuit or whatever, and there's reasonable criticisms being made.

[00:59:32] But what I'm seeing here and what you found is that basically they decided, well, she's the bad guy.

[00:59:38] She's the villain.

[00:59:40] When you do that, it's because it's too complicated to say that we have a criminal justice system that can be very biased against young, poor black men and just lock them up.

[00:59:53] And there's no – it's basically a disaster.

[00:59:57] And racism, institutional racism is a real thing.

[00:59:59] You can't – there's no – like you have to have a monocle wearing, mustache twirling villain to represent that because you think your audience is so dumb that they won't get it otherwise.

[01:00:12] And if the only trouble with the justice system in New York is Linda Fairstein …

[01:00:17] We got her.

[01:00:19] Then she's no longer working there, so there's no more problems.

[01:00:21] Yeah, no more problems.

[01:00:22] Obviously there's systemic issues here, and again, I'm not defending the way the police or the prosecution handled that case.

[01:00:31] But when we talk about the case, we're not really doing anyone any good if we're making stuff up.

[01:00:36] Yeah, also if what she's doing – like focus on what she did do.

[01:00:41] Focus on what she did do or did not do, and that can be telling.

[01:00:47] You don't need to make up extra stuff.

[01:00:48] You don't need to have her come in and say, hey, I'm racist.

[01:00:51] Let's all get to work.

[01:00:53] I mean that – you shouldn't need that.

[01:00:55] And if you do for some reason come to the conclusion with this story is so complicated and has so many moving parts that in order for people to understand it, I'm going to need to have people make speeches they didn't make.

[01:01:08] Then maybe what you do is you create a composite or fictional character and don't use the name of a real person and put words in that person's mouth that they never said.

[01:01:16] I think people who work on these things are absolute hacks, and I think it's hack work, and I think I would love to see people stop making these because it ends up influencing people's opinions of real things that happened.

[01:01:28] And it's almost always like you look it up and then you're like, wait, that never happened.

[01:01:32] That never happened.

[01:01:34] And again, that's why we have documentaries.

[01:01:36] We can tell the story of these young men who were wronged and talk about the real things that would happen.

[01:01:42] We don't need to have some fictionalized version of it where basically it's just so these creators can cut out any remaining nuance and cut out anything that – well, that will throw people off because that goes against whatever narrative we're trying to push.

[01:01:59] It's just like – it's just a mess.

[01:02:02] I mean I just – I can't stand this genre as a whole, and I think it's totally irresponsible.

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[01:03:36] So what is bizarre is, as I say, so this lawsuit, this defamation suit moved a lot farther than these lawsuits typically go.

[01:03:45] Yeah, that's pretty surprising, honestly.

[01:03:47] Because typically a judge would look at it and say, no, this doesn't meet that reckless disregard of truth standard.

[01:03:52] Let's throw it out there.

[01:03:54] Let's throw it out.

[01:03:56] This judge looked at it and said, no, it does meet that standard.

[01:03:58] Let's move forward.

[01:04:00] And so what is bizarre is that this week, just not long before this was to go to trial, it was settled out of court.

[01:04:09] And it was settled out of court with basically, I mean, to be blunt, it doesn't look like Linda Fairstein got anything at all.

[01:04:16] Netflix isn't going to pay her anything.

[01:04:19] Instead they're going to make a $1 million donation to the Innocence Project.

[01:04:24] And a disclaimer that was at the end of the episodes of this docudrama is not going to be moved to the beginning of the episodes.

[01:04:32] And the people involved in the creation of the docudrama are free to say whatever they want.

[01:04:39] And I want to read an excerpt from a statement that Anna Devernay, the producer, said.

[01:04:47] She said, quote, in the days leading up to her defamation trial, Linda Fairstein decided that she was not willing to face a jury of her peers.

[01:04:54] It is a phenomenon that often happens with bullies.

[01:04:57] When you stand up to them unafraid, they often take their ball and go home.

[01:05:01] So I am confused.

[01:05:04] Also, I mean, they settled.

[01:05:07] They gave $1 million to a project of Fairstein's choice.

[01:05:10] So I don't really know.

[01:05:12] I don't know if it was Fairstein's choice.

[01:05:13] I don't know if that will do that instead of to whatever prosecutorial equivalent that is.

[01:05:18] I mean, I don't know.

[01:05:20] You know what that reads to me as?

[01:05:23] That Fairstein was concerned about other stuff that was going to come out.

[01:05:26] Or maybe there's a financial thing involved.

[01:05:29] Trials are expecting.

[01:05:31] Or the trials are pregnant.

[01:05:35] Trials are expensive.

[01:05:37] I first came across this in an article in POC, and I'm going to read the last line of that article.

[01:05:44] I'm quoting, whatever the ultimate reason for Fairstein's settlement, the former prosecutor turned bestselling crime novelist was on the verge of making legal history.

[01:05:53] Instead, she decided to walk away.

[01:05:56] I think I'd pay to see a movie about that, end quote.

[01:05:58] I think I would too.

[01:06:00] I would too.

[01:06:01] I don't understand the decision.

[01:06:02] I would love to know if you guys, for some reason, let us know because we're really curious if you know why she walked away.

[01:06:08] That screams like, oh, I'm worried about further damage to my reputation or there's a monetary thing or I just don't want to do this anymore.

[01:06:14] I don't know, but it really is bizarre.

[01:06:16] I don't think she's like the perfect, you know, heroine in this.

[01:06:19] I'm not saying that.

[01:06:21] I just do think it's lousy when you have people kind of melding the truth and fiction in a way that just boils things down because they don't trust their audience to be smart.

[01:06:30] And I think these docuseries are morally odious as a whole.

[01:06:37] I'm not just singling out this one.

[01:06:39] I'm talking about just the genre is just, it's so often so flawed and it really does impact people because they think they're watching something that is 100% truthful and oftentimes they're not.

[01:06:53] Actually, they're never.

[01:06:54] I mean, these all have fabrications and shortcuts.

[01:07:01] And I'm so interested in knowing why she dropped it.

[01:07:05] But if these went away tomorrow, I think that would be good.

[01:07:08] The Puck article also notes that Netflix is making, Netflix is facing a string of libel cases over programs like Making a Murderer, Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich, The Queen's Gambit, and Inventing Anna.

[01:07:21] And in the Inventing Anna suit, the plaintiff recently overcame an attempt by Netflix to dismiss the case.

[01:07:32] Am I being too hard on the docuseries genre?

[01:07:35] Do you think this adds something and I'm missing it?

[01:07:38] I think of a docudrama is accurate.

[01:07:43] I think I wouldn't have such a problem with them that they're consistently accurate and weren't putting in anything that wasn't real.

[01:07:48] You know, there are books we just watch.

[01:07:51] This is so random, but we just watched the film Tora Tora Tora, which is an account of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[01:08:00] And there is a lot of attention to detail in that.

[01:08:06] When I looked it up, I think there were a few things that weren't quite there.

[01:08:11] I think they're not really sure if certain quotes were said.

[01:08:13] But generally, most of the stuff that I did look up was very accurate.

[01:08:18] And also it took a respectful approach to both the Japanese Navy personnel and the American Navy personnel and Army personnel.

[01:08:27] It wasn't maligning anyone as some evil villain.

[01:08:30] It was just about a tragic, horrible, historic event that led to a lot of horrible deaths.

[01:08:35] But it didn't feel like it was trying to prove a point about anyone being bad.

[01:08:40] It was just more of like, these are the systemic issues that led to war and this is what happened.

[01:08:46] And I know that in a few minutes you're going to be telling people about our Patreon.

[01:08:51] One thing we do on Patreon is we have a book club.

[01:08:54] And this month's selection is Fatal Vision and the docudrama that was made on Fatal Vision I thought was accurate.

[01:09:00] Yeah, when you're basing something off a book, when you're optioning book rights and then taking everything from the book and not twisting anything around or putting it in,

[01:09:07] that's how to do these things.

[01:09:10] That is how you do these things because then you're getting something that's hopefully accurate as long as the book is accurate.

[01:09:16] Before we get to you talking about Patreon, before we get to us talking about something else, why don't you bring us home with a final case?

[01:09:26] One more case.

[01:09:29] Oh man. Yeah, this one was wild to see.

[01:09:33] And sources for this one are WLKY and some of our wonderful eagle-eyed listeners who are in our Facebook group.

[01:09:45] So thank you to them. Thank you to the person who posted this.

[01:09:48] So as you know, we have a joke on the show where...

[01:09:51] A joke?

[01:09:53] We have a libelous recurring statement on the show where Kevin accuses me of stealing cereal.

[01:09:58] Many a truth is said in jest.

[01:10:00] But go on.

[01:10:03] Kevin's the Netflix of our relationship.

[01:10:07] And I'm the aggrieved subject of his crappy docuseries.

[01:10:11] Where Kevin uses me stealing cereal as some sort of libelous attempt to highlight how the law works.

[01:10:18] And somebody found an actual case where a woman named Tori Zeborowski is now accused of trespassing in a home in Butler, Pennsylvania.

[01:10:31] And she walked into a woman's bedroom eating the homeowner's fruity pebbles.

[01:10:36] And then I guess when the woman complained, she jumped out a window, a kitchen window and left and now is arrested for criminal trespassing and public drunkenness.

[01:10:45] And I just would not... I would like to make it clear that was not me.

[01:10:49] That was another woman.

[01:10:51] I just need everyone to know this.

[01:10:53] Being very oddly defensive.

[01:10:55] Yes, you are.

[01:10:57] Kevin's like, but your phone was in Pennsylvania the other day.

[01:11:00] I thought that was just a glitch.

[01:11:02] I mean, my modus operandi according to this joke is that I go after grocery stores.

[01:11:07] So I'm not doing home invasions.

[01:11:09] That's not quite my style.

[01:11:11] Yeah, interesting you call it a joke.

[01:11:13] Yeah, again, we all know Ania is a very smart person.

[01:11:16] So she goes to the source.

[01:11:18] She doesn't go to the homes.

[01:11:20] I don't want to be victimizing everyday citizens.

[01:11:22] I'm going to go after the big corporations.

[01:11:24] That's what I'm going to do.

[01:11:26] That's my style.

[01:11:28] She goes to where you can buy or get or access large amounts of cereal.

[01:11:34] I feel like if anyone ever sees...

[01:11:36] She often goes up to Michigan where Kellogg's is headquartered.

[01:11:39] Am I going to put together a team for a Kellogg's heist?

[01:11:42] I feel like I'm going to get on some kind of list by making these jokes and playing along with it.

[01:11:47] Kellogg's 11.

[01:11:49] Who would you be on the heist?

[01:11:53] Would you be like the smart guy?

[01:11:55] I feel like I have to be the planner.

[01:11:57] I have to be like the leader.

[01:11:59] I'm like Frank Sinatra.

[01:12:01] You're not like Frank Sinatra in those least.

[01:12:03] I'm Frank Sinatra of the group.

[01:12:05] And you'd be like the nerdy guy or something.

[01:12:07] I don't know, you're like the numbers man.

[01:12:09] What would you be doing?

[01:12:11] What do you see as your heist role?

[01:12:12] You're looking at me like you're stunned and offended.

[01:12:15] I don't understand why.

[01:12:17] I think you understand why.

[01:12:19] Frank Sinatra, great man.

[01:12:22] He's a huge Frank Sinatra fan so that threw him off.

[01:12:25] It threw me off.

[01:12:27] Sorry, I just thought you might like your wife as much as you like Frank Sinatra.

[01:12:31] I apologize for the confusion.

[01:12:34] SETV did a great version of Ocean's 11 called Maudlin's 11.

[01:12:38] SETV is a hilarious show.

[01:12:40] Kevin got me into SETV.

[01:12:42] It's way better than SNL.

[01:12:44] It's like an all-time greats cast in the 80s.

[01:12:47] Before we leave the topic of Ocean's 11,

[01:12:53] I feel I have to mention the novelization of the film.

[01:12:57] Okay.

[01:12:59] Why are you bringing that up?

[01:13:01] You're talking about Ocean's 11, the Frank Sinatra movie.

[01:13:04] It's a movie like a little heist movie.

[01:13:06] Spoiler alert.

[01:13:08] He's going to spoil the end of the book.

[01:13:10] Yes.

[01:13:12] The book ends with everybody being killed.

[01:13:16] We had some fun now.

[01:13:20] It's time to die.

[01:13:22] It goes on past the movie where the heist is basically

[01:13:26] the loot from the heist is destroyed and everybody's sad about it.

[01:13:31] Then the book has a couple more pages as punishment for releasing the loot.

[01:13:36] They're all killed.

[01:13:38] Was the writer having a bad day when he edited that?

[01:13:40] Oh, geez.

[01:13:42] Oh, man.

[01:13:44] Speaking of loot, we have shirts now.

[01:13:48] As far as I can tell, no one has ever been arrested wearing one of these shirts.

[01:13:53] Do you think they're almost like a talisman?

[01:13:56] People are warding off ill effects?

[01:13:58] I wouldn't want to say any claims that would get us investigated by the FDA.

[01:14:02] I'm just giving data.

[01:14:04] A little late for that.

[01:14:06] We are broadcasting from the FDA's dungeons.

[01:14:09] If you are interested, one person commented saying that they got a promotion recently

[01:14:15] and they bought the shirt.

[01:14:17] I'm not connecting those two things.

[01:14:19] I'm just giving you the information.

[01:14:22] Giving you data.

[01:14:24] You can evaluate it yourself.

[01:14:26] Yes.

[01:14:28] If you are interested, it's murdersheetshop.com.

[01:14:31] You can get the shirts and they look pretty cool, I think.

[01:14:34] Although I feel like I look like a dork in the pictures doing thumbs up.

[01:14:40] I don't know what I was thinking, but it wasn't.

[01:14:43] You're going to look good in them.

[01:14:45] Don't look at me.

[01:14:47] They're really nice, they're beautiful colors.

[01:14:49] They're Murder Sheet People shirts.

[01:14:52] We just want to say sincerely, not kidding here, thank you so much to everyone who bought them.

[01:14:58] It really means so much that you did that.

[01:15:00] It's just incredibly supportive and nice.

[01:15:03] We just appreciate all of you and thanks to everyone who wore them at CrimeCon.

[01:15:07] I just want to say thank you.

[01:15:11] It's really nice.

[01:15:13] You also wanted to talk about Patreon.

[01:15:15] If you join our Patreon, you get free shipping for the shirts.

[01:15:18] It's a nice little perk.

[01:15:20] Patreon perks also include getting to hear Kevin and I be even weirder than normal

[01:15:26] twice a month on our live shows where we will just answer your questions and usually just ramble.

[01:15:32] It's very, very loose and silly.

[01:15:34] It's not a book club.

[01:15:36] We have a book club called The Red Sheet.

[01:15:39] This month, Fatal Vision by Joe McGuinness.

[01:15:44] One of the great true crime books in my opinion.

[01:15:48] Lots of salty questions about journalism that we're going to get into.

[01:15:52] In addition to that, you get ad-free episodes.

[01:15:56] Oftentimes when we can swing it, you get early episodes.

[01:16:00] Sometimes you'll see our Patreon patrons in our Facebook group talking about stuff.

[01:16:06] People are like, what are you talking about?

[01:16:08] They heard the stuff early.

[01:16:11] Those are some of the big perks.

[01:16:13] It's just fun.

[01:16:15] If you're interested, it's at the $5 level.

[01:16:17] You can join and get some of those perks if you're interested.

[01:16:20] We're not.

[01:16:22] But in any case, we appreciate you listening.

[01:16:24] Yes.

[01:16:25] And we hope you have a great weekend.

[01:16:27] Absolutely.

[01:16:28] Bye everyone.

[01:16:36] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:16:38] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[01:16:46] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:16:54] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:17:05] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:17:15] We very much appreciate any support.

[01:17:18] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:17:28] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:17:36] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:17:41] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:17:48] Thanks again for listening.