The Delphi Murders: July 2024 Questions and Answers

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[00:01:45] discussion of the murder of two children. So we've had an interesting few days, weeks, years, whatever covering the Stelfi case and periodically we like to check back in with all of you and

[00:01:59] answer some frequent questions we get, discuss the case and sort of have a moment to check in and unpack some of our reporting that we've done. So today we're going to be doing that for July.

[00:02:11] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney and this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders, July 2024

[00:02:33] questions and answers. So let's start out with a relatively easy one. Yes. Anya, what has happened in the Mitch Westerman case? A lot of people wanted to check in with us and either let us know about

[00:03:29] the Mitch Westerman case or ask what's happening with the Mitch Westerman case. This is of course the man who leaked sensitive discovery materials, including crime scene images to the wider internet. It's led to some pretty horrifying things happening. And he was charged

[00:03:49] with criminal conversion in Johnson County. A special prosecutor was brought in. It was all, you know, sort of looking to hold this person accountable for what he did. And there was

[00:04:00] a lot of debate about whether what he did was even a crime. So it was kind of an interesting legal wrangling. But that has come to an end because Mitch Westerman last week was put into a

[00:04:14] diversion program. So instead of going to trial, he will be going to this diversion program. He had to sign a paper saying that he acknowledged that probable cause existed for the crime.

[00:04:27] And now as long as he essentially doesn't do more crimes, that should be the end of it. So that's, that's that. That's that. Another question we have been getting a lot concerns the fundraiser. Certain people associated with the defense held a fundraiser for the defense

[00:04:49] of Richard Allen. What happened to the money? Well, I mean, we don't know. So we're journalists, we're not going to just get out there and say, we assume this or we assume that. We're

[00:05:01] going to tell you what the documents and materials that we're reviewing say. And so all we can tell you is what was said behind the scene, behind the scenes by people close with the defense. We can't

[00:05:14] say what actually happened. What when we looked through the messages between self proclaimed voice of Richard Allen and YouTuber Bob Mada between attorney for the attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie, Michael Osbrook, appellate attorney, Carol Weineke, who not only has represented Richard

[00:05:34] Allen before the Supreme Court of Indiana, but has also written briefs in the murder case and a group of internet sleuths. When we look at that, what they indicate is that Hennessy got at least $40,000. David Hennessy being another attorney for the attorneys in this case,

[00:05:53] obviously, he got $40,000 but that he had to shut down the fundraiser because Stripe determined that it was a restricted account. So that's what they said happened behind the scenes, where the money

[00:06:06] went, where the money is now, what Hennessy has done with it, all of that we can't say because we don't know. We did get an email from David Hennessy about some of these matters.

[00:06:16] Yes. Yes, do you want to read that Kevin? We requested comment from Mr. Hennessy and here is what he wrote back. He wrote back initially concerning the fundraiser. This is David Hennessy speaking quote, I did not set it up. It was set up through Stripe which is exceedingly

[00:06:36] unhelpful and user unfriendly. They would put up unreasonable and unnecessary hurdles and offer no assistance in resolving any issues they created. But Bob Madday is correct. I am old and technologically challenged. Ultimately, we got it done and got Mr. Allen the help he needed.

[00:06:55] In any event, I trust the people you named more than you too, unquote. Okay. Well, we do appreciate Mr. Hennessy's response to some of our questions. We do. Sounds... This also kind of brings up something.

[00:07:09] One thing, we did like three episodes on these messages but there were like thousands and thousands and thousands of messages. Much ended up on the cutting room floor. Including stuff that was potentially interesting. I don't know, maybe some of this stuff

[00:07:24] will be getting to in future episodes. But one of the things that ended up on the cutting room floor, well a lot of it, a lot of the stuff that ended up on the cutting room floor,

[00:07:35] I think people would be surprised by how, I'll just say how mean these people are. Including some of their closest allies. There were things in these messages. Someone who went out and was really strongly defending them last week, they were really kind of giving this person a

[00:07:56] hard time in these messages and saying really strikingly personal and awful things about them. But on another note, some of the things they were saying were conspiracy theories, including some conspiracy theories I had trouble following and one in the due process gang,

[00:08:13] the main group. Main group. So this is everyone in this group. The attorneys, the internet sleuths, Bob Mada sort of on the margins there. There was a conspiracy theory involving us and David Hennessy. I had a little bit of trouble following it. Can you try to explain?

[00:08:28] I'm going to piece it together for you, Kevin. Because this one, I guess delighted me to know. They said this conversation took place on March 14th, 2024. So it predominantly involves Angela Szydlowski who is a licensed clinical social worker associate in North Carolina who has taken

[00:08:48] upon herself to become a YouTuber and also very, very involved in this case and very, very vocal and somewhat, argue perhaps abusive towards people she feels are part of a widespread conspiracy to convict in railroad, Richard Allen. And so she puts this out there that basically

[00:09:12] she thinks that we bamboozled David Hennessy when we interviewed him. We interviewed him a few weeks before the photo leak. And I think apparently around the time we were interviewing him, there were some depositions in the case going on. So as I understood it,

[00:09:35] apparently we interviewed him in Andrew Baldwin's office and the office is empty except for him. And I guess maybe one of us distracted David Hennessy while the other grabbed crime scene photos and used them to fabricate a leak to damage the defense. Was that it?

[00:09:51] That was kind of it. I mean, maybe one of us released a butterfly in the room and he chased it laughing with a big butterfly net while we got to work. But so this actually, quote,

[00:10:01] takes place March 15th, 2024, 12 21 AM. And again, this is in full view of all the attorneys and everybody here. This is what Slavlowski has to say, quote, I'm going to ask until y'all kill me, can someone find out where Hennessy was interviewed by them? Please physical location

[00:10:25] and date of MS interview. They stole or weaseled something from him or during that time. I STG end quote. So that's what they think happened. Let me just tell you, if a group of people

[00:10:39] that I considered allies or friends were talking about me this way, I would be pretty annoyed. If people were saying things like, you know, I bet they I bet these people got something from

[00:10:50] Anya. They probably like left a bunch of fruity pebbles on the sidewalk leading up to a big cardboard box and she wandered into it and got stuck in the box. And that's how they did it. I wouldn't I wouldn't be super happy about that because it's basically assuming

[00:11:05] any it's assuming the lack of confidence on my part. If you really believe that you're believing that David Hennessy is a fool. Also, we did not interview David Hennessy in Baldwin's office. No, I mean, there's no reason not to say is there or is there?

[00:11:20] Yeah. I mean, I don't I mean, we don't have to say where but I okay, it was not in anybody's office. So it's it's just silly. But I think it's important. And also we did not

[00:11:30] bamboozle him or take anything from it. No, we just talked to him. The the interview is what you heard in the episode where we interviewed him. It's just we asked him

[00:11:38] about his career and that was it. There was no we didn't even try to press him on Delphi because we respect people when they want to talk to us and we're not going to just try to like hammer them on stuff they don't want to talk about.

[00:11:47] I won't give a specific location but we'll say this it was at a library. Yeah, we love libraries. A public library that we felt was at a convenient location for him

[00:11:57] not far from where he would be at that time. I just think the reason we want to mention this now in addition to it being somewhat amusing but it really underscores the level of conspiratorial

[00:12:07] thinking on this team, even when it's actually denigrating to people that they claim to value that that is notable where I don't I think a lot of people you know you might assume the worst of those you don't like but with this group it actually goes

[00:12:25] far beyond any sort of common sense. A lot of people in this due process gang are really conspiratorial we mind it as we often note Kara Weineke the appellate attorney for Richard Allen doesn't believe we landed on the moon which is frankly a ridiculous and flat out

[00:12:44] stupid thing to believe. I'll say that it's a stupid thing to believe. It says something about the way she perceives the world the way she considers the world I think. Yes and it also says something about the sort of person who is attracted to these conspiracy theories involving

[00:12:58] Richard Allen. I think if you're the sort of person who believes we didn't land on the moon you might have an easier time embracing some of the more out there conspiracy theories concerning Richard Allen and I hasten to add Richard Allen could very well be factually

[00:13:16] innocent of these crimes but they are setting it up so it's basically they're tying that to also believing in a widespread I guess odinous lead or whatever conspiracy theory that goes to the

[00:13:31] top of the heights of power in Indiana. It's just it's just stupid and the problem with that is that then you're you know in order for Allen to be innocent we also have to believe

[00:13:42] all this other stuff how about just go for he's innocent they didn't prove their case that's a pretty strong argument that's a that's an argument that can really resonate with a lot

[00:13:50] of different people you don't have to buy into all this other stuff. Yes this is this is my concern or it'd be my concern if I was a friend or relative of Richard Allen they are setting it up

[00:14:00] so that if you want to believe he's not guilty you have to accept a pretty big conspiracy and that is baffling because there are other defenses available to them at least in theory.

[00:14:11] And I'm going to tell you this I think people who are not sophisticated legally speaking you know people who may be smart who may be savvy but who just don't have not had experience with the legal

[00:14:21] system think that a really good defense is a lawyer running around screaming and pounding the table and you know flipping over the table and fighting with everybody because that seems aggressive that seems like you're defending me you're out you know you're looking out for me

[00:14:36] but in reality sometimes a good defense is a lot more boring than that and sometimes doing all the theatrics is actually not a great defense. Imagine that you're having lunch at McDonald's

[00:14:49] in one table over two people are having an argument and one of them stands up and turns the table over and starts yelling about conspiracies and mysterious odinists and stuff and making a big

[00:15:03] fuss in a racket and saying everything is unfair and I'm the only one that can see it and all this other stuff would you think oh that person makes a pretty strong case I bet that person

[00:15:12] is right or would you be inclined to dismiss a lot of what that person says is craziness because of the bizarre theatrics. Can you not re-litigate our last fight on in public like this please?

[00:15:22] No I mean Kevin is correct I mean but again when you're not used to dealing with the system and you just basically know what you know from watching episodes of you know law procedurals then I think people tend to not necessarily know how to recognize quality

[00:15:40] defense when they see it but anyways. So Anya what does all these messages and stuff that were released what do they say about how the case is being covered? Well they kind of show in my

[00:15:53] view that the gag order is completely useless I mean Kevin and I tend to be pretty anti-gag order as a rule because we like transparency and information getting out. We certainly understand

[00:16:05] why in the past gag orders were used to attempt to perhaps not damage cases but we think that the gag order in the Delphi case is overreaching and let me explain why that is so you have the

[00:16:17] victims families the families of Abby and Libby the two children murdered at the heart of this case were bound by the gag order they can't speak out they can't talk about the case they can't defend

[00:16:28] themselves which is especially interesting given that you have attorneys in this group essentially saying that they need to be looked at more including Bob Mada saying that they're on the table when it comes to I guess people who are suspicious or might be affiliated you know with

[00:16:44] the actual murders so you have that but then you have attorneys actually working with the defense team or writing briefs for the defense team who do not believe that they are bound by the

[00:16:55] gag order so they can just give out information willy-nilly to people like youtubers in order to influence the narrative of the case so it seems like a very lopsided situation when you have one side seemingly respecting the gag order and then the other side basically saying rules don't

[00:17:13] apply to us we're doing it you know at I think that just kind of underscores how useless that is and to me it it also these messages reveal something troubling about the way a lot of us get

[00:17:28] information about the case uh Ani and I obviously tried to attend all the court hearings most people can't do that because the process is very very difficult to get into these hearings so we get

[00:17:40] information most people get information from other people and there was kind of a tendency to assume that the people we get information from are fair and honest arbiters of the facts and what we are learning is that people who present themselves as being independent commentators

[00:18:02] publicly are behind the scenes saying well I'm the voice of Richard Allen. Yeah Bob Mada is not an independent commentator if he's also striving to be the voice for Richard Allen, Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie and I would even argue that that doesn't make sense because I don't

[00:18:19] know that those three people could all be spoken for in the same way I feel like speaking for Richard Allen is different than speaking for his defense attorneys at this point that's not necessarily

[00:18:29] normal in a case but it seems to be the case here in my view. And then we also have attorneys coming out and talking about the case but not disclosing that behind the scenes they are

[00:18:41] writing motions in the case including motions that they are actually commenting on. So the end result is that people are getting information from this case from biased people and they don't know that what they're getting is coming from a biased person and so that is shaping perceptions.

[00:19:03] I would say that it this goes beyond bias Kevin I think bias is coming in and saying well I tend to believe defense attorneys over police and so I tend to look more favorably on that view. This is manufactured this is people who are essentially self-appointed spokespeople like

[00:19:20] like Mada and frankly like Weineke coming in and trying to manipulate people by not disclosing the extent of their connections. If Bob Mada you know at the beginning of all this came out to his

[00:19:32] audience and said I'm very close with the defense on this one I'm working with them in some capacity and I'm going to essentially be acting as some sort of media liaison or spokesperson

[00:19:44] for them. I think we could all criticize that but I think we would appreciate the honesty and would look on that as saying well he's being candid he's being transparent and now people can

[00:19:54] assess his words from that context and that would be something to appreciate and to be happy about somebody doing being that candid. And you know that's not what happened obviously

[00:20:07] there's a kind of like a have your cake and eat it too thing with this and I think you know frankly if the if the prosecution I mean if James LaTrell and a bunch of YouTubers and some other random

[00:20:20] people were in a group chat together doing something like this it would also be a really big deal probably more of a big deal because they'd be you know the state has obligations and that

[00:20:29] would be a huge violation and so when I look at this I just see I don't know it's a mess it's a mess and it just makes me kind of we need to be really really critical at who is bringing us information

[00:20:44] and what we're consuming because it's not necessarily just somebody's opinion. It in this applies to all crime cases at this point it's not necessarily like somebody just arriving to their an opinion based on their experiences or what they think it very well could be I'm going to

[00:21:02] tell you this and not that because that makes my side look bad and this I know will resonate with you and make you think a certain way. So since we now know that there are figures on the defense

[00:21:17] side of things who are working behind the scenes to manipulate public opinion a certain way I would encourage people to be increasingly skeptical about things that come from that side of the fence

[00:21:31] and I would also encourage people to go back and re-examine things you learned from some of those sources which we now know more about and question them and then perhaps be a bit more

[00:21:44] skeptical about maybe some of the things you've come to believe that maybe now that you know came from a questionable source you might want to find less compelling. And also I'll just say this one thing that really surprised me looking at these messages

[00:22:00] was the vitriol for Libby's family in particular and this doesn't even just apply to what they're saying about Libby's family specifically obviously we had people like Mata saying that they still need to be on the table as far as being you know investigated even though it's been

[00:22:15] seven years and again Richard Allen is being held in prison and has apparently confessed loads of times and made incriminating statements so I guess I just think that you know I'd be very

[00:22:28] curious about what Mata wants to ask Libby's family what hard questions he has for them and if he you know will do that in a public setting but the fact of the matter is that they're actually

[00:22:38] going after in these messages people that they perceive correctly or incorrectly I don't know as being proxies for the family of Libby in particular and for the families and for the victims they're attacking specific individuals who they say essentially go too easy on the families they're

[00:22:57] too nice to the families. And the funniest thing is you're talking and there's a lot of people that criticize for that. Oh I mean yeah you're gonna pick one right? The list is long I'm gonna

[00:23:09] pick two because I think this really says something so on May 22nd 2024 at 8.45 a.m. they start talking about Cheryl McCollum now Cheryl is a commentator in true crime she has different projects and

[00:23:28] she is often on social media speaking about you know impact to victims families so that is that is a concern of hers when she's talking about different cases I think we've gone on shows with her

[00:23:41] before she goes on Nancy Grace's show a lot and so she's often just talking about that and that's sort of her realm and this is what Sid Lowsky had to say about her and to be very clear

[00:23:55] this is in the context of her being too too tied in with the families of the victims in this case quote Cheryl is such a clown I really have tried to give her a chance but her takes are so

[00:24:07] emotional and based on virtue signaling and pressure from families versus any actual evidence or expertise anyways I got opinions for everyone this morning let me know if anyone is looking for an unsolicited burn end quote and then to that mother replies for some reason quote

[00:24:27] thanks Ang heart end quote and I think he's responding to something else because they kind of are going back and forth about a lot of different things one of the things about these messages is that you have like a lot of conversations having it once happening at once

[00:24:42] a lot of replies so I don't think he's thanking her for you know burning Cheryl but I think that it does indicate that he's not in the least bothered by what's being said here

[00:24:55] because again I think it's really interesting for someone who's in the field of social work to be complaining that somebody is is too thoughtful about victims and their families

[00:25:07] I think I know it can seem perhaps like a hard thing to do but I think there is a way of being defense sided in a case and commenting like that while also being somewhat respectful of

[00:25:22] victims their families and I think in most situations in most situations that is possible you can walk that tightrope it may be difficult at times you're never going to please everyone

[00:25:32] and that's okay but I think you can do it and I think you at least have to try and I think this group has has no intention of that and in addition to that

[00:25:43] at one point they start going off on someone we've actually met at the trials right Kevin yes so this is Sarah Osbrook Elrod and she is a I'm sorry Sarah Elrod Osbrook pardon me

[00:26:01] and she actually reached out to us to ask us to emphasize that she is in no way related to Michael Osbrook so Sarah is a moderator of a Facebook group around the case she's been

[00:26:12] following it for many years and she often you know attends the cases the court dates and she's a very nice person I'll say that she's often we used to be first in line of these things

[00:26:24] now Sarah is almost always first in line this means that before court hearings we usually get the opportunity to spend a few hours talking to her very nice woman very interesting life yeah she

[00:26:36] is just I mean we had her on the show once she kind of filled us in about stuff that happened at a hearing we missed so I mean she's just a nice lady she she cares

[00:26:43] about the case and I think she moderates a group where you know criticism and harassment directed toward the victims families is just not considered okay so that alone I guess makes her an acolyte of

[00:26:58] the families who again this group has described as as running a cult so that's the sort of language we're seeing here so at one point you know they attack her as being a family acolyte

[00:27:11] and I think Kevin you found something where they were actually were Bob Manna commented on her directly right yes this was very interesting to me at one particular hearing Bob modest is oh Sarah Osbrook

[00:27:25] was sitting behind me and she was kind of fangirling over me yeah this was March 20 actually that wasn't a direct quote but he did use the word fangirling well I'm going to say this I'll read the direct quotes March 20th 2024 at 5

[00:27:40] 5 54 p.m quote this is in response to Courtney Parsons one of the internet cranks asking if basically Sarah was glaring at him this is what he responded quote quite the opposite she was

[00:27:53] actually fangirling me quite a bit and we actually reached out to Sarah to ask her if we could mention that on the show and she gave us back the following response quote Mr. Moda should not

[00:28:07] consider every female that occasionally listens to his podcast or YouTube channel as girl fans and don't take my kindness as a weakness hashtag justice for Abby and Libby end quote so again this doesn't sound like she was fangirling no this is something though I think it's

[00:28:27] important to note that if you are at all in this case and even have just a space that you are moderating where you do not allow people to just speculate endlessly about the guilt of people

[00:28:41] who already lost a child then you are an enemy and you are liable to be ridiculed and basically talk down to by this group and I think that's really interesting because I don't think that's

[00:28:57] necessary in order to defend Richard Allen I think you could make a case that Richard Allen is innocent and the families are victims and maybe they're being victimized again by the fact that they

[00:29:08] got the wrong guy I think you could make that argument and have that have some logical cohesion and coming from a place of empathy that I think probably would play better frankly with the

[00:29:20] wider public than what is going on instead but instead we have a very sort of bunker attitude of it's us versus everyone else even people who think he's innocent who just do not buy into our specific mindset and I think that's really interesting.

[00:29:37] It's also interesting frankly that Modesty is a woman being civil to him as a fangirling interesting telling perhaps I don't know was the more you wanted to say of this front or should

[00:29:50] we move on to the next question I'll just say this and this is just about how the case is being covered you know one thing we saw in in these messages and frankly that we've kind of interpreted

[00:30:01] from the filings for a while now so we didn't really need this confirmation but it was interesting to see there's an idea that the defense puts out its talking points through filings so that means that sometimes filings are made that there's an acknowledgement that this is

[00:30:17] going to go nowhere but we want to put it out there so that the press will sort of uncritically run our talking points and have an impact on the jury pool on the wider public right

[00:30:30] and so the way I see this at this point is it's sort of like you know I think reporters and people doing their own content creation around this really need to keep that in mind

[00:30:40] because it's getting to the point where it's like it's like doing a news broadcast on an area boy who claims to have seen a menacing wolf outside the village and failing to note that we've been here

[00:30:51] before and every time we found out later that the boy was not telling the truth and there was no evidence of a wolf and I'm just we have to look at this critically I'm not saying dismiss

[00:31:04] everything the defense puts out there they very well could be wrong about some things or attempting to manipulate public opinion on some things and completely correct legally or factually on other things we just have to take a critical eye at this point because there's been a pattern here

[00:31:19] and I guess I just kind of shrug when I see everybody I mean when when they filed that thing on gull trying to get her taken off for delaying too long nobody seemed to be also

[00:31:30] looking at the context of does this even fit legally and so it's like I mean we were busy putting together these episodes but we kind of were like this isn't even worth covering because

[00:31:41] it's just like this isn't going to happen I guess I'm just saying that we all could do to be critical and skeptical about everyone in the case but the defense in particular given the history here the context is necessary and you're kind of touching on some things that

[00:31:58] I'm going to touch on in answer the next question we've been getting which is basically these messages and stuff what does it all say about the state of the case and is Anya alluded

[00:32:11] there there has been a strategy of using motions not so much to get a desired result in court but rather to try to use them as press releases to get information out to the public caro winicky

[00:32:26] herself she confirmed that this was a reason behind at least one filing and I can tell you I've strongly suspected that it was a reason behind other filings and I've also strongly suspected that it was a reason behind certain testimony at some hearings there was back at

[00:32:44] the contempt hearings there were some for instance there was some testimony from Todd click that the defense thought was very very important and worthwhile and dramatic and they went public to hear all about it but it had nothing whatsoever to do with the issue that was being

[00:33:00] considered it was a complete waste of everyone's time it was just a way to manipulate things to try to get particular information out to the public and I want to be absolutely clear and blunt about that that is not a strategy that shows strengths or confidence it's actually

[00:33:25] a strategy of weakness it is a strategy that lawyers use when for reasons good or bad they think they don't have a strong case so I don't know what information Rosie and Baldwin have

[00:33:40] and I don't know if they're assessing it correctly but this sort of behavior kind of indicates they don't think they have a strong case for Richard Allen because if you did have

[00:33:51] a strong case for your client and you believed in it you would not need to rely on anything other than what evidence is presented in court because you know that would clear your guy

[00:34:06] but this what they're doing here it's basically a hung jury strategy they're trying to create whiffs of impropriety or whiffs of interest in conspiracies so they were like permeate out into the air and ultimately help to persuade at least one or two jurors to hold out and create

[00:34:25] a hung jury situation and basically that strategy shows that they don't believe they can win the case they believe that all they can hope for is a hung jury it's a strategy of weakness so

[00:34:39] there's all of that now but let's set this aside for a moment and consider this if you were an attorney in Baldwin and Rosie's position and you did indeed strongly believe that your client was innocent and you wanted to get information out there to the public

[00:35:02] that would convince the public of his innocence what kind of information would you release I think things like a strong alibi things of that nature they don't do that the stuff they're using these these phony press releases and frivolous motions to get

[00:35:23] the stuff they're putting in these phony press releases and frivolous motions and worthless hearings it's basically about trying to suggest repeatedly and baselessly the process is unfair and goal is a big meanie and so that kind of makes me think

[00:35:44] that the information that would really help them like oh maybe a good alibi they don't think that information would be helpful all they have is this strategy of pointing fingers and trying to suggest improprieties even

[00:36:01] improprieties that don't exist in reality and so people have been asking us too about the hearings next week and we'll talk a bit more about those in a moment but here's basically what to expect

[00:36:19] I expect this strategy to continue they're going to try to point the finger at these odinous and try to generate testimony that we're grab the public and make them think oh maybe there's

[00:36:33] something to this odinous stuff and the thing is Anya and I are going to fairly report on whatever that testimony is but first let's have some blunt and honest words because I think at this stage

[00:36:51] of proceedings we all deserve that first it is not our place to make a determination of guilt or innocence at this time but it is fair to make statements about the evidence as we know it

[00:37:06] and how we believe the defense is perceiving it so I believe at these hearings the defense is going to try to point a finger at Brad Olt I believe at these hearings the defense is trying

[00:37:19] to point a finger at Brad Holder but remember this there is exponentially more evidence against Richard Allen than there is against Brad Holder they would try to point a finger at Johnny Messer but there is exponentially more evidence against Richard Allen than there is against Johnny

[00:37:38] Messer they were trying to point a finger at Elvis Fields but there is exponentially more evidence against Richard Allen than there is against Elvis Fields so unless they produce something really dramatic and shocking it sounds like it'll be much sound and fury signifying nothing

[00:38:01] and at the end of the day I wonder not only why do they create this elaborate conspiracy theory but why do they center it around this man Brad Holder who has a great alibi for the time of the

[00:38:16] murder that that's the number one question I have why why why centered around him in particular because when you have someone who is at work that day and then at the gym that really takes a

[00:38:31] lot of air out of the sails with this thing right yeah I mean it's bad I mean it's bad and I mean one thing I think it's really important to stress is that we believe at this time

[00:38:44] anything could change in this case but we believe at this time that this series of three hearings is going to be you know it's their mini-trial it's their chance to really stress what the evidence

[00:38:57] they have for this third party suspect theory is and they're going to be probably treating it more like an extended press conference than an opportunity to actually get something introduced

[00:39:12] in court and so we don't know if it's even going to be allowed in court because it may not rise the evidence but the goal will to be basically say look they're all covering it up for the oddness

[00:39:22] that's why it wasn't allowed in rather than we didn't do our jobs and get to the point where it was meeting a standard to be allowed in I mean that that's this may be the last gasp of

[00:39:32] odinism in a way but they're going to make it count by playing to the media and more importantly the conspiracy theorists yeah so next week there's a few motions concerning whether or not odinism

[00:39:44] can be brought up the trial there's going to be hearings on yet another motion to defense pardon me there'll be hearings on yet another motion to dismiss that they filed a while ago there's going to be hearings on this defense team simultaneously seems to

[00:40:03] complain that we don't get enough discovery and oh we get so much discover we don't know how to look through it all and because of what they alleged to be discovery violations on the part of the state

[00:40:15] they are requesting a hearing to have pretty strong sanctions which would include not allowing the state to rebut anything they say about Todd click and odinism or refer to anything about Libby's

[00:40:31] phone yeah and you talked about Brad Holder having an alibi another thing is Todd click he is their star and keep in mind Todd click in a statement to us said that no one in law enforcement believes

[00:40:46] these girls were killed in a ritual yeah he indicated that he agreed with the defense's theory in terms of who was involved but he also indicated by stating that that he did not believe that the

[00:40:57] underlying theory of why this happened was correct his theory was that it was more personal more of a sort of a crime of you know sort of things things went wrong I guess rather than it was a

[00:41:12] planned ritual sacrifice so I mean I think it's not necessarily devastating for him to disagree a little bit with them if he believes the underlying facts but it does go to show you

[00:41:24] that they did adopt something that was kind of out there even for people who are already inclined to agree and I don't know it'll be curious to see it'll be curious to see how how this goes

[00:41:38] for them but I kind of we're coming into it with a level of skepticism that we maybe did not in previous times to be honest yeah to be honest we've seen this we've lived it and we're not going to do

[00:41:52] some sort of a banal attempt to sort of treat objectivity as you know giving equal credence to both sides when in fact we believe that the objective and fair thing to do is to actually

[00:42:07] question some of the strategies and motives here because if we sit here and tell you everyone's doing a wonderful job and it's just amazing to see then we actually feel like we were potentially

[00:42:17] doing a disservice not only to you but to the truth of the matter and and to sort of how we regard how fair this is for Richard Allen yes and certainly as we've seen behind the scenes

[00:42:33] uh mr. modus as he is the self-proclaimed voice of Richard Allen andy bald one and bradley rosie i'll tell you what I say both behind the scenes and publicly and my coverage of this case or any

[00:42:46] other case I want to be the voice of kevin greenlee and and i'll be the voice of on yakeen yes so we are not beholden to anyone and we're going to tell you exactly how we see it

[00:42:58] yeah I don't you know I don't also again I said it before I'm gonna say it again I don't think you could be the voice for all three I think the at some point you may see a divergence between

[00:43:09] the needs of Richard Allen and and the wishes of Richard Allen and what these defense attorneys are doing and I can't be confident that there isn't that divergence so I don't think we should

[00:43:18] assume that there isn't one I wouldn't say that in most cases but I will say that in this case there's been so much that's gone on that really makes me question is this the best thing for

[00:43:30] allen or is this the best thing for the attorneys and I think we need to interrogate that and look at it and I don't think we should just assume that everybody should automatically be put on the

[00:43:40] same page here without some intense questioning you were sharing with me the other day a passage from one of your favorite books okay so this is one of my favorite books and this came to

[00:43:51] mind as we were doing some of this reporting so I wanted to share it with all of you it's a book by Walter M. Miller Jr and it's called a canticle for Libowitz it's amazing again probably top five

[00:44:03] books for me and it's sort of about a post-apocalyptic future where knowledge and what not is sort of trying to you know being guarded by a select few and and sort of how

[00:44:14] does humanity come back from the edge is really good but this is the quote quote ignorance is king many would not profit by his abdication many enrich themselves by means of his dark monarchy

[00:44:31] they are his court and in his name they defraud and govern enrich themselves and perpetuate their power end quote that is something that I think a lot about in the context of true crime

[00:44:45] I certainly uh when I read that book years ago never thought I would sort of see that play out to the extent that I have in my daily life and job but ignorance is king and and many

[00:45:00] many people out there many people who know better and some who don't work overtime to keep keep that monarchy ruling and so I really think we all need to be aware of that and I hope it strengthens people's resolve to really interrogate the information they're getting

[00:45:23] and the content they are consuming in true crime and not necessarily let anything escape scrutiny because we can't afford to do that at this point not in this case not in the Delphi case

[00:45:36] not based on what we uncovered last week but anyways thanks so much for listening we'll be hopefully going to those July through August hearings and reporting back to you about what we

[00:45:48] see what we hear what we think what our opinions are what we just viewed in the courtroom although keep in mind that this is the Delphi case and so goodness knows if it'll be even happening thank

[00:46:03] you so much thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com if you have actionable information

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