What's she gonna do? Brother? When Jeff Townsend Media runs wild on you. This is Jeff Townsend. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Indiana Stories. All right, you're listening in to another episode of America Stories. But we're pivoting to our Indiana Stories that we do from time to tie, that we used to do all the time. And the reason we're doing that is because about a year ago, actually interesting backstory of how this happened. I had the Murder Shoot podcast on as they joined me today on Yukane and Kevin Gramley, the lovely on Yukane and the stoic Kevin Gramley will say that anyway. So we actually we had a lot of listeners last year asking a lot of questions about the Delphi case. I think they're just casual interest in it, probably not as deep as some people are into it. And we recorded an episode. We did a two parter I think we recorded in one session, though I've released it in two parts, where we talked about just the case in general. Then I believe three days later there was an arrest made. If I remember how this happened, So we talked about the case in detail before any arrest was made. Then before I could even release the episode, an arrest was made. So then we've kind of because of interest and a lot of questions and comments, we come back in as soon as we receive more information, and that's exactly what happened earlier this week. So yeah, the Murder sheryt podcast joins me. Of course, guys, I'm excited to talk to you again. I wish it was ever better circumstances, but it's always nice when you take the time to catch up with me. You're all over TV, you're here everywhere, and you take the time to talk to this guy, So that means we love talking with you, Jeff. You always ask such great questions and you have a real grasp of the case, so it's always delightful for us to speaking to grasp with the case. You guys definitely have by far more than that than me. Whenever I hear anything I actually I think, I think it's on you I speak with, I always say, hey, how significant is this? You're like big he you know, whatever you'll tell me, and this week was definitely significant. We'll get into some of the details of that. The people listening to start off though, the defense, so walk me through what happened here because this information was available for what just a short amount of time. Originally, I don't I'm not an expert by any means, but how does something like this go about, where this information comes out then it's like sealed or what happened? Well, the defense on Monday filed this document and they did not request that it be made confidentially, did not request that it be sealed, and so it was open for anybody who wanted to access it. We actually received a copy of it from the Clerk of the court. She emailed it to us. Yeah, and some people are wondering if it should have been sealed, given that a lot of details, a lot of names. It's since been seemingly we've heard that it's been sealed, possibly by the judge. Though not to be flippant, but the horses out of the barn, you know, like that's shutting the barn door at this point, because the media has been all over it. It's been extensively reported on, so the information is definitely out there seemingly. And this is my opinion I get so. I guess it's my podcast. I can be more opinionated than you guys are. Pretty neutral and respective, I guess I could say on yours in investigative integrity, which is great, but seemingly to me purposely possibly I guess, done strategically. In my opinion, it could be a strategic move like that. We'll get into some of the details. But to me, how weird is this that this didn't wait till trial. Oh, that's such a good question. To me, it's a little bit weird. And I'll explain why. Specifically. The Frank's memorandum really includes a lot of the really interesting information, and it essentially outlines the defense's entire case, you know, who they think did the murders, as opposed to their ban Richard Allen. And what's interesting about that is the Frank's memorandum really only has to get into where law enforcement messed up so the PCA can be thrown out probable cause affidavid for the search warrant. And that's what the Frank's motion is meant to do. So all of this stuff about who they think did it is, you know, not necessarily fundamental to achieving the goal of saying, hey, law enforcement lied about this. Here's why the search warrant should be tossed. So that seems a bit unusual to me, how about you, Kevin, Yeah, I was a little bit surprised and went into so much detail. It's spelling out this alternate theory. But certainly behind the scenes they've been the defense has been deposing witnesses, asking witnesses questions. To me, though, just from watching a lot of televised cases and court particularly court events before, this is like a defense that would be laid out in a tr I'll especially the some of the revellions that there are people that they can we'll just say it people they say did it, Like normally that would be something that's kind of laid out in court, like not Richard Allen didn't do this, but this person did it. And this has all been laid out in front of us months before this even goods of trial. So to me that seemed very unique. Yeah, there's so much about the Delphi case that is just kind of really see it in other cases, and it makes it hard for us because we always like to compare things to other cases. Okay, well, this is somewhat like, you know, what happened in this case, But unfortunately there's a lot of things that are singular about Delphi, and certainly it puts the people who were named and rather uncomfortable position because suddenly they're being associated with the murder of these two young children. That's certainly it must have been a shocking thing for them to wake up to Monday morning. Just going into it a little bit here, So some of the things that we had not I'm more than certain that you guys had heard a lot of these things that were released today beforehand but did not share and a lot of other individuals as well that have been investigating the case. But of one of the things that wasn't made a little bit more clear is the murder scene itself had been a pretty closed lip like what the environment was like there, what it happened, what the bodies were like, and all that, and that was revealed in this document to an extent. As far as the positioning there was actually I'm trying to it was on Court TV. It wasn't. It wasn't an episode that you guys were on. But they actually had a presentation of a layout of how the bodies were staged, and a lot of this information was new, and along with that, it was some of the they wanted a greater detail about it, but just to start off some of the how the bodies were positioned, and then they actually clarified something that we had all been discussing though, where the location of the phone was. So this is something that, like I think, was always wondered, like where was this phone at? There was a record had tossed off to the side. It certainly didn't seem like the whoever's being accused of committing the murder knew about it, and I think this kind of solidifies that because the phone was stuck up underneath one of the victims bodies, correct, Yeah, or hidden underneath or or laid on. I mean, I don't know how to describe it exactly, but I understanding it was it was under one of the bodies. Yeah, And we hadn't known that really before, and I think that was something that was snooted from this today, I mean earlier this week, excuse me. Yeah, there was a number of details about the crime scene had not been publicly confirmed. Also, it was mentioned that one of the victims had been dressed in the clothes that the other victim had been wearing. That's certainly an odd detail that certainly must have taken the killer or killers a fair amount of time and effort to do, and you can't help but wonder why they did that. I don't want to go into the I'll just give the basic details real quickly and get it out of the way, because they're kind of grewesome and to be quite frank, making me uncomfortable having a father of three daughters. So one of the victims, Libby, was found nude. Blood spots and blood dripping sent all over Libby's body. No blood sprayed or dripped onto the leaves or tree near the Libby's head, which had basically made it look like stage right off the side of the directly in line with the tree. I guess I'm going to say. They also determined the wound to the neck. Abbey was found fully closed, dressed in Libby's wet shirt and jeans like you just brought that up. Abbey was found wearing two brawls. Strange, no blood on Abby's clothes, very little blood on the body, and Libby's phone was found lit, phone and shoe found under Abbey's lower back. So we just talked about that and knocked out of the way. Uncomfortable, but it's important to the pieces together, So Yeah, the phone was revealed underneath one of the body's victims. But like you said, two different and both of them handled completely different. And then some of the things that were used were tree limbs, correct to cover up the bodies. Yes, that's correct. This one of the strange signatures that seemed to be at the scene. Yeah, and it's one of those things where we can look at it like signature. We could kind of go down a rabbit hole as much as we want on too how significant it is. We obviously don't. We weren't there, We didn't see it. But if some people are saying, hey, they just used lembs cover them up, some people are saying there strategically placed symbolically, I guess you could say, and we'll go into that a little bit here. So with that being said, there's been some things that are brought on that document based on just the crime scene itself. Yes, yeah, sorry, I guess it was a really good question. It was a statement with a question like statement question work, I am Rod Burgundy question work sort of thing. But yeah, so they this document reveals, and I hadn't heard of this group, and maybe you guys had or hadn't that there could have been a cult like setting that took or event that took place motivationally charged this murder. It's a doozy so, but the defense is theory of the case essentially is that a group of Odinists following an old Norse religion sort of neopaganism that the defense associate has associated with white supremacy and certainly has been associated with white supremacy publicly, like you know by the Southern Property Law Center, A group of them sacrifice the girls in some sort of religious and obviously that's generating quite a lot of headlines. It's a very unusual type of killing. From what we can tell. It's not common that you have cults running around sacrificing children. It's just I think that's fair to say. And this group is actually identified by name in the document and it's basically what the defense is saying is that there are runics symbols in the crime scene that speak to the odiness essentially, and I think what we're gonna see is come down to is interpretation and whatever lens you're looking at it, If you're looking at it through an Odinis lens with which the defense is and you're seeing the ruins in the sticks that posed over the bodies. You're seeing it in some blood spladder on one of the trees, unfortunately with Libby's blood, and they claim that that is in the shape of a ruin. So that's what they're saying. I don't know this for a fact, but I have a feeling that prosecution's probably going to say that that's blood spladder and sticks. So we're it's going to be the two interpretations. Who's is more credible to the jury? Go ahead, Kevin, it seems like you're in thought or well, I just couldn't mention that. They further identified an individual whom's son was the boyfriend of Abbey, and they indicated that they weren't sure that it is alibi. Shocked out and said he was at work at the time, and they went so far as to say, well, even if he was at work, it could be a Charles Mainson type of situation where he did not personally participate in the murders, but he's somehow inspired. They basically confirmed his alibi that yes, you know, he was at the very least his card was clocked in from worked from this time to that time. They kind of throw out, well, maybe someone clocked in for him. We're kind of getting into the realm of is that likely. But they do note that the true ring leader doesn't have to be at the scene, so it seems like they're identifying that specific individuals very important for their theory because he seems to be a connected tissue between a couple of different elements of this alleged group. But it seems like the defense is almost strategically leaked information out over the last several months. I don't even want to say leaked. This thing is just part of a defense strategy. We talked about that last time we spoke how the time into this was very interesting, the confessions and all that, and it seems like this is this part of piecing together to defense before the trial even begins, or seemingly could be, if you understand what I'm saying, right, Yeah, it's definitely very aggressive messaging because, as we said, there's no reason for this to really be in a Frank's memorandum. So the fact they're putting it out there, I means, you know, they want the public to have it, they want the media to engage with it and get it out there. Basically that narrative, which is that it's a cult of odin Us, And what they're actually arguing is even a bit more far flooded than that, because they're saying that there are Odinus in the prison where Richard Allen is being capped, who are not you always get you. I'll go where I'm gonna go on you every time. I don't have to segue either one of you two where I'm going. It's just some connection that we have. So I wanted to say that, absolutely, you're going right into what I had thinking about. Next. Yeah, this is I mean, because I'm sure you picked up on this. This is where it gets really, I mean, because the other stuff is wild. I mean, I think that's fair to say. I'm not being flippant. It's just, wow, a cult of Pagans did it? Now we're getting into Actually, the cult of Pagans is also aligned with prison guards who are actively torturing Richard Allen and maybe forcing him to confess to the crimes or they will hurt his wife. So a lot to impact there. But one thing I do want to say is that if anyone is associated with a white supremacist group who's working in a prison, that's obviously an unacceptable situation. We have been hearing from some people that there are people who are Pagans and believe in Odin who are not white supremacists and just want to practice their religion. So we get into kind of a complicated area here because I think everyone can kind of condemn white supremacy but also want people to be able to worship their own religion. So I don't know where any of this falls on this spectrum here, but that's just something that I'm thinking about. But yeah, the prison guard stuff is where you get in an interesting footnote, the attorneys did say that they had never heard from Richard Allen that he was being forced to confess. They did clarify that in a footnote, but they did indicate it was possible that that's why he confessed, because obviously that's something they have to explain the fact that Richard Allen, we are told in court filings he actually repeatedly confessed to this prime in a phone call with his wife, and the defense has to try to explain that. And this seems to be their exclamation that he may have been forced to do sell back women guards. Last time we spoke, we actually discussed that in detail, and going back to what I just said, it seems awfully strategic the release of information here. So we have the confession and now we're lining it up with some of the wise of why there may have been a confession. This is certainly one of them. They've even gone to detail to say that they've been filming some of the sessions between the attorneys and Richard Allen and other different things that could be impactful on the court. This is a huge allegation for sure, and they're gonna have to investigate further, and hopefully this is something that they could be proven to be true or false, which other direction they go. It seems definitely something they could be investigated though. Yeah, I think, I mean, certainly, as we said, a prison is an environment where you know, there's a lot of people of color who are incursorted and if you have people associated with any sort of white promise this group, we're in a position of power there that's not okay, and so that I think should be taken seriously just and investigated on its on its own. You know, where you have a possible link between people interested in odinism who may have committed the Delphi murders. And for folks who are not in Indiana, Westville is not close to Delify, this pretty far away. It's an inn ordern part of Indiana, the northmost part. So it's not like you're having people from Delphi. You're just like kind of associating with I don't know, it's it's it's definitely a lot of interesting things to unpack, but yeah, it's it's a lot. It's a lot. There were some other things that came out of this though, I think that would be very impactful on this case. One of which was the way there was a complaint on the way to which the evidence and things were collected, and that would be a dammy That would probably be what would just spook of kind of seems like a rabbit hole to me, but in fact, if some of this evidence gets tossed out, that would be very damning for prosecution. Yeah, that's absolutely right, and I'll jump in there. I mean, the thing that really speaks to the Franks the Delaware issues is the defense's allegations about Tony Leggett lying about witness statements. And if that's the case, and the piece and the probable cause effidavit for the search warrant was flawed, then you could have an impact. Could you could get the search warrant thrown out. If you lose the search warrant, you lose his gun. Therefore, you lose the bullet tying him to the scene, and you probably lose his confessions because he wouldn't have been in prison if he hadn't been arrested over the search warrant, over the findings of the search warrant. So you lose the case against Richard Allen if that piece is flawed. You talked about some of the witnesses and all that. What exactly was said in this that happened? I know there some of it was around a sketch, the sketches of the suspect. Yeah, there was a crucial witness who gave a description of the person she saw out on the trails that day, and the description she gave clearly does not fit Richard Allan. She describes him as having I think fufy or puffy hair or poofy hair, and Richard Allen clearly does not have your fluffy hair. Vinnie Politan on Court TV calls him a young justin Timberlake. Yes, yes, I saw you guys both crack a smile on that one too. Also, there was a witness who supposedly saw the car matching a description of the vehicle that Richard allenone in a parking lot at the Tide, or the description she gained does not match the description of Richard Allen's actual vehicle. So these things might suggest that the person she saw the vehicle they saw was not Richard Allen or Richard Allen's vehicle. So if if, if it turns out the law enforcement massaged witness statements to get the outcome they wanted. You know, we did notice that some of the language used by the defense to describe some of this, they were like in twenty seventeen, this witness just said muddy, not bloody, And that kind of left the door open for us a little bit where like war was there a twenty eighteen statement where she said maybe it was blood I don't know. I mean, that's just total speculation, But there could be there could be some meet like meeting in the middle where you can understand why the defense is making this argument, but you can also say that it's not necessarily fair to say that like law enforcement is lying. Do you know what I'm saying, This is all This feels like to me, more of a normal route of what you would hear in trial compared to the the theory that we had we started off on. This discussion on these things are critical on any defense, right, I mean immediately you want to be able to attack the integrity of the investigation. And this is absolutely huge. So makes sense to me what you're saying ahead, Kevin, Yeah, I was gonna say, I agree. The first hundred some pages were all about Oldenism, oldness, but then it really gets to this part about well, maybe the witnesses didn't say what we were told, maybe there's chain of custody issues with the evidence, and these are things weren't in lying what you were expect from a typical Frakes motion. I would also just say that a lot of pre trial motions in most cases, even relatively high profile cases, don't always get a ton of attention. And the Delphi's obviously different Delphi. The media is ready at every turn about what the latest motion is. So there's a lot that can be lost or won on pre trial motions. I think in this case, you know, if Judge Gulls like, yeah, they totally messed up the PCA. I think the case against Richard Allan falls apart if you lose that search warrant. But if not and it stays in the bullet ultimately stays in and the confession stay in, then obviously that's a different landscape for defense to navigate. Yeah, confession and the bullet casing place and you get to seem of the crime are definitely very powerful. A lot of things released in this I will say that that, like we just touched up on that end part is definitely It was interesting how it was loaded up frontloaded with a lot of this information on this cult religious organization, then kind of factually on the back than the facts at the end. To summarize these documents up with something like this is normally normally released as it normally this big is not typically this long, and typically they focus more not they focused not on alternate theories of the case as much as picking apart what law enforcement may have done to incorrectly in order to get the warrant. So basically, in general they've been more like the last thirty or so pages and lost like the first hundred pages. The both of you have spoke with a lot of people who probably know Richard Allen, and what's the general consensus you get from those conversations. Basically, we've talked to people who grew up with him and people who worked with him in some capacity at the scene, yes, in Peru Indiana, and because he worked at the Peru Indiana CBS before he worked at the doll I gotcha. Basically what everyone is said is normal dude, just a normal very quiet not talking much, but had a sense of humor. And you know, it wasn't completely standoffish, but you know, generally not somebody who was going to get super personal with you at were but somebody who you could count on. One person had more of a negative experience with him, but it was it was really in line with like hypical coworker stuff. They had a bit of a conflict. She felt he was micromanaging her, and there was just kind of not a good vibe there, but not in like a murder way, just really in like that was really the only negative saying. Other people you know who grew up with the family grew up in Mexico, Indiana, which is right outside of Peru, Indiana. A while of confusing names in Indiana and moved to Delphi later on and had had a child, had a daughter, was married for years to a woman named Kathy, who he was you know with I think they were together since high school and you know, just kind of very much a guy who's under the radar. So and that's what you know, people were always emailing us like, oh, find out how weird he was. And it's like, we're going to just report what people who knew and tell us, like, we're not going to try to cherry pick to make him look sinister. If people are telling us he's a normal dude and that's what they saw, then that's what's going in the show. Sometimes when when there is a murder case and and somebody is arrested and convicted and we deep dive back into their past and we hear about things, a lot of the times that they are just this seems to be the case, just a normal person. You'll have a person here or there, we'll have share some ridiculous experience they had with him, or or a negative one I guess I'll say, but a lot of times it's just they are, I mean, seemingly a normal person. You know. I will say, like on the spectrum of is he, you know, sociable versus non sociable. We have not been able to find a lot of people who knew him, and that's not the case for everybody that we've looked at on the show if But then again, like I mean, I'm I'm probably somewhat introverted. I don't think there's a lot of people who really know me. I don't think that's necessarily sinister, but it is something to be said here. I don't think he was mister out on the town, going around, hanging out, partying with everybody. I think he really strikes us as just more of us, person who went to work, did his job, came home, was with the family. We've not talked to a lot of people who have said that they were his friend, or even people who lived in his neighborhood who knew him or the family particularly well. We have that Again, that doesn't mean anything. It's just a note. Although frankly, sometimes when a high profile thing like this happens, people who do know somebody, they don't really want to come forward because they don't want to be maligned. And there's such an undercurrent in this case where people try to make it into everyone wants it to be bigger, bigger, bigger. It's not one guy. It's a sex cult. It's not one guy. It's a pedophile ring. You know. So if you come forward and say Richard Allen was my buddy, you know you're gonna be grouped into that. And I can understand if some people are like, I don't want to put myself through that, Yeah, absolutely understandably. So I don't know if this is on the same Court TV episode that you guys were on. There was an individual on there that dropped bombshell of a statement being that there were Yeah, the recordings is famously heard around the world, guys down the hill. This individual, I don't remember the person's name, flat out said there's two different people saying that. So one person saying guys, other persons saying down the hill. I don't know how he came to that conclusion. But to summarize this document, they kind of went off on a lengthy statement about how it would be impossible for Richard Allen to physical Let's just say physically do this right, and I'll give you some examples on that they touched they touched up on. We stated a little bit earlier, but just some of the crime scene. Even Abbey's hands were clean, no blood, Abbey's feet were clean, no blood other than blood founder around Abbey's neck area. I guess I don't want to read it all, but it goes in this huge detail about how how much work for one person, particularly Richard Allen, had, would have gone into performing these murders. Not only that they talk about I believe they use the word hike, hiking across the river, all the ground that would have to be covered, and just the amount of time at work that would go into this time span. Am I accurately describing how that summarizes all this? And they're trying to end on that note saying a little a little Richard Allen wouldn't be able to do that? Yeah, is this a little short? I throw that opinion on myself because they had to make sure to mention how small on statue of his height he was. He's a very short man and we've seen him in court and he definitely is not a tall man, right, I think, I mean to me, it's like if sometimes, I mean, when people emphasize that so much, I'm kind of like, you know, he had it if he's guilty. Whoever has a gun on two teenage girls? And you know, I don't really know how much height matters at that point, but that's just me. That person you were, I'm not even going to say their name on this because they do not deserve any attention. I don't even know. They're not a credible person in our view. We've had dealings with them and some of the antics behind the scenes who wouldn't believe to be to be frank, So I don't believe the thing. I mean, if that person says, you know, it's raining out, I'm going to look out the window. There's so many people in this case who just getting on TV and saying whatever, So that's fun. But I would say that, yeah, they I think the fense made some compelling points about how much work would have been done at the crime scene. I tended to view it like as a writer, I feel like I could make a lot of things sound a lot more involved. Like if I was to narrate your morning Jeff, I could like write down everything in its own little paragraph, and first Jeff got some coffee, or at first he turned the coffee maker on. Then he like, wouldn't you know, it would just it would make it sound like you were a very busy person when maybe in reality it's just part of a routine you'd do it. That being said, it is a lot to do. He's a middle aged man, he's not exactly in the prime of his life physicality wise. So I think it was a fair point for the defense to bring up. And I know it struck Kevin as like, wow, I think it would be hard for one person to do that. It struck me as more like, I think somebody can do that, but I don't know. And of course, after Alan was arrested last year and the press conference where that was announced prosecuted, Nick mcleland actually said directly that we think it's possible other people are involved in this. So when you leave that, which is why they wanted to not their information to get out right, That was basically one of the reasons they wanted this to be stilled a little bit more exactly, Yeah, because they wanted the investigation is ongoing, so we can't release this information without compromising the investigation. So we have to assume they mean what they say, and if their theory was more than when people when person involved, there was reason to believe that. And one of the reasons to believe that, apparently it's just because of how bizarre the crime scene was and how long and how much, how long, and the effort involved in doing all this. But that was okay. So them describing this religious cult and all that is going into to try to make you and the defense is doing their job. Let's just say that, I'm not knocking the defense that is going into to convince you that these leaves, these these limbs, these tree limbs, that they met something everything, it's something. Therefore, it would make that event impossible to do in that time frame with one person. See what I'm saying, like obviously strategically done, because let's just say these were just trying to cover up somebody just trying to cover up a body, real quick. That is a lot different than saying somebody's strategically trying to set up a I don't be ever the word ruin or whatever we used, it's completely different. And you have to paint that picture for a believability for the case of two people doing it. I don't say you have to, but it makes it more than likely with two people to do it. If the events that took place were that much more detailed and lengthy in nature. You can interpret it in many different ways like on you just said and she feels one thing, you feel the other way. But to me like they have to paint and they went the really long way to do it. But the most important part of this document was where we're at here at the end, Why something like that would have taken that amount of time or why would it pause? Possibly be that you could absolutely prove him guilty, right, I think all that plays in the factor here as this as all these all these things were released in this document. Yeah, and I'll say that I think that it's been a very effective narrative so far because we've get we get a lot of messages from people who are curious about the case, and I think something about the odinist angle has fired up a lot of people. They're stalking the facebooks of the men who have been named as odinists. They are engaging with it in a way they are basically saying, I mean, we're getting emails from people who are trying to like thread the needle and say, well, could Richard Allen have been an odinist? And it's like, okay, no, because I think the defense would be crazy to do that if they if there's any like inclination that kid as gordinous, they're not going to go with that theory. You know. They're they're they're smart, these they're smart attorneys. They're not gonna shoot themselves in the foot like that. And also it's it's also shows me that people are just kind of accepting the defense's characterization of the crime scene on face value, because it's like, Okay, we have to get around this ode and this thing, how do you know? And it's like, I think that's very interesting and it shows the power of the narrative here. Do you think the overwhelming amount of information is part of the strategy too? And I'll give you an example. Yeah, I don't want to say it's exactly, this is one. It reminds me of my opinion. I used to work with this co worker. Whenever we had a project, he would go in great length to describe how it was impossible to do the project. I mean, he would give y'all so much information on how it would be impossible to achieve a goal of a project. It overwhelmed you with it. As sometimes I felt like irrelevant information in an attempt to just to derail the project. Does it makes sense what I'm saying to you. Again, I'm not saying this is your guy's opinion, it's mine. So in a court case, Kevin, you're you're you're a lawyer on to investigate a journalism for these types of things, and you have been Is it common to just I'm going to throw everything at you to try to overwhelm you with the purpose of doubt or trying to raise doubt in your mind. Yeah, I'd say so, And I'd say it's often a very effective strategy because sometimes the more information you give people, the more confused they'd become trying to make sense of it all. There's details, and hear about people allegedly confessing to their involvement, and the typical person when they hear that somebody confess, they said, well, that must be an accurate confession, because why would they confess that they weren't involved in the crime. And so that people just try to make it all fit in together like some sort of jigsaw puzzle. Real life, it's a complicated case and just causes confusion, and in this case, confusion helps the defense absolutely. Man, I don't I know, you guys don't feel I don't want to keep you on here much longer. But just two more things, one of them being what do you feel like this information getting out right now before trial? What are the pros and cons to sum this up of what it could do at this trial. I think a pro for the defense is that their narrative gets some time to take root, the lack of a better term, they get that out there. Maybe people are looking for other Odinness in the Delphi area and they can expand that theory with the help of the public, and they're kind of putting their line in the sand of like, Okay, here's what we think happens. So I think that's positive for them. I think the negative for defense, I suppose maybe people get used to it, and you know, novelty is a huge thing in the Delfi case. Everybody wants something new, so, you know, but I think it's it's an interesting enough theory that it's not going to be boring, So I don't know how much that a negative would be. What do you think about for the prosecution, Kevin, I think for the prosecution, the biggest negative impact is that this document, if you take it seriously. It strongly suggests that the investigation was fatally flawed and that the investigators made some serious errors. And if that idea gets into the blood stream, people are going to assume, even when they hear of compelling information from the prosecution, well, maybe they're not telling us the whole story, or maybe this is just another one of their mistakes, and that is something the prosecution has to deal with. They they're going to have to come out and defend the integrity of their investigation and the integrity of them men who let it. I want to say the flip side for the pro for the prosecution is that if they're able to debunk some of this publicly in a filing for trial and maybe indicate areas where the defense overstepped with their statements, I think that that's adding to the defense's credibility frankly, so you know, or you might get into a situation where it's sort of a gray area where both sides are saying they're the liar and as the public appear to be like okay, at I don't know who's telling the truth. So that's kind of I think where it's dead. Yeah, with the whole purpose to be to really question this investigation, which has been scrutinized by yourselves, by others, by the world in great detail. And this would be like, for example, we didn't get into it, we all, but the description on how the tree limbs were cut and how the tree limbs weren't collected, all of this information being released with the intent of really making you question the I don't even want to say integrity. I just want to say, I guess the how much you could truly rely on the skill set of the people that performed this investigation, not even negatively maybe just like like purposely doing it right, just more or less how professionally there were gaps and opportunities. So I think the obviously is to try to highlight that last question for you. You guys stick to a pretty tight script on your podcast, You stick to a pretty tight script on Court TV. I want to take this opportunity here for you to share any other feelings or thoughts you have on the case. And I'll start out. For me, it's kind of like sad because the further we get into this and it's just gonna get worse the further we get away, the more we dive into these details, the further we get away from the victims, the true victims of the case. That that's my thoughts, just to summarize. When I look at all this information in front of me, we start to victimize Richard Allen. We start bringing all these other people you talked about, these names that released, You just start watering it down. More and more people get impacted, and it just take it away from the original victims of this gruesome crime. Very Well said, I feel like there's a movie that always comes to mindfully with this case, and the movie subject is not about a murder or anything like that, but I just think the environment around this case reminds me a lot, and I would I'm not going to do any spoilers, but people should watch it. It's a Billy Wilder directed film. It's called Ace in the Hole and it's about a newspaper man who's very jaded, very cynical, and he happens upon a story where a man is trapped in a cave and it's about the media circus that ensues. And it is to me. I watched it and felt like so dead inside because I was like, yeah, nothing has changed. It's the most kind of disturbingly accurate portrait of what could happen in a media circus, and unfortunately, I think a lot of the things going on with Delphi their hallmarks of that film. So I would recommend for all your listeners to check it out. It's but as far as my own feelings about all this without going off to the gunn and going unhinged, excuse me, which I'm sure a lot of people want us to do, but I don't. I wasn't my intent. I've just literally you guys stick to a really tight script. There's you don't share your opinion, which is fine, Okay, you do a little bit. Well, that's not the intent of your platform. My platform here, I'm giving you a few minutes not to do something you're uncomfortable with or to try to put you on the spot. Wait to give you a few minutes to do something that you wouldn't necessarily take the time to do on television. We're skating pressure release, you know. I would say for me, people just need to stop beating weather rains on it, like, you know, like we're all waiting for information and the amount of times you know, people I feel like when he got arrested, when Alan got arrested. People were like, he's the guilty, you know, get him, and it's like, okay, he's just been arrested. Fellow, like, let's just see what the case against him is, see what his attorneys have to say. And then you know, they release fo those of him looking you know, disheveled and not in good spirits in prison, and then oh my gosh, she's being tortured, and then it goes back to oh, well, he confessed, he must be guilty, and it's like, I just feel like this roller coaster is just so exhausting, and I just feel like the public I'd love to see more people just saying, okay, this, let's take in all this information and like assess it and think about it. And there's no rush to have a hard opinion on anything in this case. Either way. It's ultimately going to come down to the jury and that's what's important. But I just feel like there's almost like a kind of impulse to like kind of everyone everyone be a take factory on social media, and I kind of just feel like there's no ultimate point in that, and there's certainly no point, you know, the prosecutions slinging stuff at the defense I think we need to wait till the defense responds before we make up our minds, and same with vice versa. So I think that's where I am. I think the rush to judgment can be somewhat problematic at times. Do you have any I just went off in Jeb and you have to do one too. Yeah, it's very striking. People like immediate gratification. They want immediate answers, and so when something like this comes out and is revealed, they want it to be definitive and they want to be able to believe it without having to do any further reading or investigation. And unfortunately, it's a it's a boring thing to say, it's an a dult thing to say, but before you can come to any final conclusions, you really do have to get the other side of the story, and you have to wait. And we certainly hope that the prosecution files and substitutive response and as soon, and we hope it's not sealed because we think people have a right can see it so they can evaluate the work their public officials have been doing in their name on this case. Well said, and I appreciate both of your time. Is check out our previous conversations are all on there. We've kind of we haven't broken down in long for what we have done is a pretty good job of a couple of probably hours of listening time that would summarize this case really well without going into the greatest detail. If you want to hear more detail, obviously, check out the Murder Sheet podcast Murder Sheet podcast dot com. You guys have a really neat Facebook group that I'm a part of, so I think if anybody's interested in that should look into that and anything else you guys want to plug or share it. What did I miss here? No, you did it? That was perfect, And yeah, just check out our Facebook group. It's it's really pretty chill, I think for a true crime Facebook group. But just don't fight. I'm in another. I'm in a couple of these del fi Facebook groups by the way, and yeah, they're they're very different. They vary indifference from group to group. In comparison to your guys, I will say that, Yeah, we try to do something a little different. We have an excellent we have an excellent moderator, and people get mad at us because they like go in and act you know, act up and then get kicked out and they're like, you kicked us on and we're like, we leave everything to our mod and she boots first, nass questions later, so she's awesome. Yeah, you gotta nip the butt early, I guess, and get ahead of it. And I will say again, thank you guys for the manner you've handled this, the integrity you put into this, and the way you conduct yourselves all the time on your podcast, on television, on social media. As you've had your let's just say, arguments with different true crime podcasters throughout the years, you guys have always handled it really well in comparison the way they handled it even though, but you guys have taken the higher out, and I mean the higher I guess you've just you know, when to pick your battles. And I really appreciate the professionalism that you guys put it behind your work. We so appreciate that. Thank you. Jeff. I used to joke to Kevin, yet she's the imagine dry song that comes on everyone wants to be my enemy. It was a certain period in time where I was Kevin like we should meet this our things by Yeah, yeah, Now, I mean it's it's it's you know, we just try to. We don't. We don't try to start drama, but sometimes it happens and you just got to deal with it. But I would say a lot of people we've been able to meet like yourself and and you know, just a community of people who really I feel like, care about covering crime and responsible and you know, thoughtful manner, and we just have been very gratified to meet kindred spirits like yourself. Kevin, you want to leave us with a really impactful, stoic quote, I'm just kidding, man, I will put you on spot like that. You're sick. You both are sick, and I appreciate you taking that time to do this. Check out the Murder Sheet podcast and back episodes of this podcast. Thank you both, and I hope you have a great rest of the day you too, Jad. Thank you for listening to this episode of Indiana Stories. If you like what you heard, you can go to Indiana Stories dot com for more episodes and other stories relating to Indiana. Also, if you're enjoying this podcast, there's several things you can follow, the podcast itself, the newsletter, and various other things. Thanks again for listening, and we will be back with another episode and I hope you join us for another Indiana story evening any Jeff Townsend media, see you good night. And the question is do I stay here? Will you be back? Are you gonna come back? Will you be back? Are you coming back?
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