A Conversation with Former Federal Bureau of Investigation Agent and 'FBI Retired Case File Review' Host Jerri Williams

[00:00:00] For most of us who are interested in crime, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a fascinating institution.

[00:00:06] In the United States of America, it's our domestic intelligence agency.

[00:00:10] The Bureau boasts a long, storied, lauded, and occasionally even controversial history, dating all the way back to the dawn of the 20th century.

[00:00:19] It dominates our popular culture, with countless films, television shows, serials, radio programs, and novels centering the FBI and FBI agents.

[00:00:30] And, of course, it's been involved in many of the highest-profile criminal cases this country has ever seen.

[00:00:35] According to the FBI's website, the Bureau has a workforce of around 35,000 people, and over 10,000 of those are special agents.

[00:00:45] These special agents are tasked with investigating everything from serial murders to white-collar crime to terrorism cases.

[00:00:54] But what's it really like to work for the FBI?

[00:00:58] Today, we will speak with someone who can take us through what a career at the Bureau is really like.

[00:01:03] We'll be speaking with Jerri Williams.

[00:01:06] She's the author of the book, FBI Myths and Misconceptions, a manual for armchair detectives.

[00:01:12] And she's also the host and creator of the podcast, FBI Retired Case File Review.

[00:01:18] And before all that, for 26 years, she served as an FBI special agent.

[00:01:24] My name is Anya Kane.

[00:01:26] I'm a journalist.

[00:01:27] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:01:28] I'm an attorney.

[00:01:29] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:31] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:38] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:39] And this is a conversation with former Federal Bureau of Investigation agent and FBI Retired Case File Review host, Jerri Williams.

[00:02:31] Jerri isn't just a former FBI special agent.

[00:02:35] She continues to be an ambassador for the institution with her podcast, FBI Retired Case File Review.

[00:02:41] We really cannot recommend this show highly enough.

[00:02:45] Jerri delves into real cases with the agents who actually investigated those cases.

[00:02:50] It makes for some fascinating discussions.

[00:02:52] We were especially excited to talk to Jerri for our show.

[00:02:55] I previously got to interview her for an article I did years ago for Business Insider.

[00:03:00] She's great, and so are her insights on the Bureau.

[00:03:03] Well, Jerri, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:03:05] I'm super excited to chat with you again.

[00:03:08] I guess to start out with, can you just tell our listeners a bit about yourself and your experience?

[00:03:15] Yeah.

[00:03:15] So I was an FBI agent for 26 years.

[00:03:20] I spent most of my career in Philadelphia assigned to an economic crime squad where I investigated things like, you know, con men and frauds and Ponzi schemes and embezzlements and business-to-business telemarketing fraud.

[00:03:36] And I absolutely loved it.

[00:03:38] I mean, it was always so fascinating to me, the schemes that people would devise in order to steal or take other people's money.

[00:03:48] Absolutely.

[00:03:48] Did you always know growing up that you wanted to be an FBI agent?

[00:03:52] How did you kind of come to choose that career path?

[00:03:54] Yeah, it was not something that I had thought about at all before a few weeks, before I actually applied.

[00:04:03] To tell you the truth, I was a psychology major in college.

[00:04:08] I had always thought that I would go to medical school.

[00:04:10] So in college, even though I didn't have to, I took the organic chemistry and physics and biology and all of that stuff.

[00:04:19] And I did not become a doctor, mainly because I couldn't get through the second semester of physics, no matter how much I tried.

[00:04:27] It just something I couldn't do.

[00:04:31] And I dropped the class twice and realized that my dream of becoming a doctor was over because of that.

[00:04:41] I could not qualify to take the MCAT.

[00:04:45] So I had to think of something else.

[00:04:47] And of course, I had a psychology degree.

[00:04:49] So I actually got a job working as a juvenile aftercare counselor, which is really like a glorified probation officer.

[00:05:00] But I only got the kids that were adjudicated and had been sent away.

[00:05:04] So I visited them while they were away at group homes and reform schools.

[00:05:09] And I also worked with them and their families when they returned to the community.

[00:05:14] So I was able to actually use my psychology degree.

[00:05:17] And I loved the job and thought that I would stick with it, you know, for the rest of my career, you know, getting maybe a master's degree and maybe even a PhD.

[00:05:28] And then I saw this newsletter that said that the FBI, this is back in 1982.

[00:05:35] So we're talking, what, 42 years ago.

[00:05:38] But the FBI was looking for women and minorities.

[00:05:42] And I was like, the FBI?

[00:05:47] You know, I just had never thought about it before.

[00:05:50] And in my mind, an FBI agent was, you know, a white male in a dark suit.

[00:05:55] And I just, it was something that had never, ever crossed my mind.

[00:06:02] But my roommate in college, who is still my best friend today, and also a retired FBI agent, because I talked her into it after I did it, was a police officer in Baltimore.

[00:06:16] And, you know, so the idea of being in law enforcement wasn't far-fetched, because I saw her doing it and doing it quite well.

[00:06:26] So after looking at that newsletter, I thought, let me just give them a call.

[00:06:31] And so I did.

[00:06:32] And the agent that answered the phone, Randy Waldrop, I'll never forget him, really recruited me.

[00:06:41] He had me on the phone for at least 45 minutes, telling me all about the FBI, because I had done absolutely no research before I made the phone call.

[00:06:50] You couldn't get away with that today.

[00:06:51] But I had done none at all.

[00:06:54] And so he'd tell me about the position, about the job.

[00:06:57] You know, he asked me questions about myself.

[00:07:00] And then before I ended up hanging up the phone, he made me promise to fill out the application, which was like a beefy little packet at the time.

[00:07:10] And I don't know.

[00:07:12] He motivated me to do so.

[00:07:13] So I filled it out.

[00:07:14] And what is the most amazing thing about this story is that six months later, I was walking into the FBI Academy to start my training.

[00:07:25] And anybody can tell you that it usually takes at least a year, a year and a half or more.

[00:07:31] And it was six months.

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[00:10:44] I'm curious.

[00:10:45] You know, you kind of went into this a bit cold,

[00:10:48] kind of conceptualizing the FBI as a very white, very male organization.

[00:10:53] And it was.

[00:10:55] Yeah, I was going to ask.

[00:10:56] I kind of figured.

[00:10:59] What was that like going into that?

[00:11:01] When I came in, I was like the 23rd or 24th Black female agent.

[00:11:09] And even today, we only make up 1% of agents, even today.

[00:11:15] But back then, you know, I definitely was, you know, somebody different, you know, coming into the FBI.

[00:11:25] And I've always been honest.

[00:11:28] My first four years, every time, you know, I thought about it, it was like, what am I doing here?

[00:11:34] I'm going to quit, you know, for the first four years.

[00:11:37] Because there were attitudes and things that were said and ways that I felt that I was being dismissed or not taken seriously.

[00:11:47] You know, I looked at the people that came in with me.

[00:11:50] And, you know, some of them, both male and females, were being taken under the wing of training agents.

[00:11:56] And, you know, really, and I just felt like I was on my own many, many times.

[00:12:02] I had lots of friends.

[00:12:04] But the work part, I just, the bad thing about it, it started having me question whether or not I was the right fit.

[00:12:15] And, you know, it kind of got in my head and kind of broke me in that way.

[00:12:20] But I stuck it out.

[00:12:22] And after four years, after I had been more experienced and had kind of been able to prove myself, which I shouldn't have had to do, you know, I was an agent like everyone else.

[00:12:36] But after that had been established, you know, things just got so much better.

[00:12:40] And at the end, you know, I became the spokesperson for the Philadelphia office representing the FBI in Philadelphia, representing the special agent in charge.

[00:12:54] And so just when you look at the difference between what was going on when I first came in and how my career ended, I mean, it's just huge.

[00:13:03] And I am so glad that I stuck it out, that I became to understand that I had the right to be there and that I was exactly the right person for the job because it was the most exciting and interesting and wonderful career.

[00:13:23] And I'm so happy that, you know, I joined the FBI and that I had that wonderful experience.

[00:13:33] Absolutely. And that you paved the way, presumably for folks who are different, who are not the kind of stereotype of the white male FBI agent going forward into the future.

[00:13:44] I hope so. I, you know, I hope that there are people who look at me and look at my career and say to themselves, if she could do it, I could do it, because that's the truth.

[00:13:55] And I appreciate not only your work with the FBI, but after you've left the FBI, you really are devoted yourself to educating people about the work law enforcement's do.

[00:14:07] You took your podcast through your writing career.

[00:14:11] One book of yours I really enjoyed was FBI Myths and Misconceptions, which is like a list of some of the things that people believe about the FBI that isn't necessarily so.

[00:14:23] And before we get into some of the cases you've worked on, I'd like to ask you about a couple of those myths, because when you were talking about your background, your background isn't the cliched background you'd expect to find from an FBI agent.

[00:14:38] And I think one of the myths you cite in your book is everybody thinks that you can't be an FBI agent unless you're an accountant or a lawyer, and you were neither.

[00:14:46] Can you talk about that?

[00:14:47] Yeah, that is absolutely correct.

[00:14:49] And there are lots of, you know, accountants and lawyers, and the FBI wants them, but they also want teachers.

[00:14:56] They also want people that have run businesses.

[00:15:00] They also want people that are just out there working, you know, every day in a managerial position where they're in control, that they can get things done.

[00:15:12] Because that's the type of person that the FBI is hoping to recruit, because that's the type of person that we need.

[00:15:20] But yeah, there's nurses, you know, have become FBI agents.

[00:15:25] There's veterinarians and doctors, former sports figures.

[00:15:31] And we just recruited maybe two or three years ago somebody who was an NFL player.

[00:15:36] And so you really have no idea who the FBI is looking for.

[00:15:41] And for those people who think that you have to be, you know, an attorney or a CPA or have come in, come through the military or law enforcement, that is absolutely not true.

[00:15:53] And, you know, you need to look into it a little bit more and see maybe if this is something that you could do.

[00:16:01] Another misconception I think a lot of people have, I know I watch TV shows and movies and we see the FBI come in and like take over a case and don't play well with others.

[00:16:12] Is there any truth to that?

[00:16:14] Oh, that's one of the ones that I just hate to see.

[00:16:18] And I get kind of angry and frustrated when I'm watching, you know, a TV show or a movie or reading a book and that comes up.

[00:16:25] And I understand why, because, you know, you don't have a story if there is no conflict.

[00:16:30] But that is just an easy, you know, conflict or friction, you know, element to stick in a book because it's just not true.

[00:16:39] I mean, most of the time when the FBI shows up at a scene, they already know all the law enforcement people there.

[00:16:46] You know, because they either have representatives that work on an FBI task force or the FBI has done training or a presentation to that particular agency or they've worked in other cases together.

[00:16:59] So, you know, just the idea of an agent showing up and nobody knows who that person is, like a bank robbery or, you know, some type of situation like that is just so far fetched.

[00:17:11] Because, you know, we are working with our law enforcement agencies, both local, state and federal agencies on a regular basis.

[00:17:22] Especially when it comes to violent crime and things like that.

[00:17:26] I really enjoyed this book on FBI misconceptions and I recommend it to people.

[00:17:31] I just want to talk about one more element of it that involves interrogation.

[00:17:37] I think lay people don't really understand interrogation.

[00:17:41] I was watching an episode with Anya the other day of homicide.

[00:17:45] Like on the streets.

[00:17:46] And the detective on that said, oh, when I'm doing an interrogation, basically I'm like a salesman and I'm trying to sell a person on a jail sentence.

[00:17:54] And so we don't really understand how that works.

[00:17:56] And so a lot of people assume that FBI agents will go in and they will be aggressive and they will try to intimidate or use force.

[00:18:05] Does that happen?

[00:18:06] Absolutely not.

[00:18:07] It's really just the opposite.

[00:18:10] And, you know, people might be surprised about how personable and empathetic that an agent is when they are interviewing someone.

[00:18:20] I mean, we don't even like to use the word interrogation.

[00:18:23] There are situations maybe in a terrorism case where it's appropriate or something.

[00:18:28] But really, it's called an interview.

[00:18:31] And I had a friend of mine that I interviewed on the podcast that likes to call it a conversation with a purpose.

[00:18:39] And when you have a conversation with a purpose, you will do and act and be the type of person that wants to accomplish that purpose.

[00:18:49] And you know that by yelling and screaming and threatening somebody, you're not going to accomplish your purpose.

[00:18:56] You're going to accomplish that by speaking with them and showing them that you care about them, that you value the information that they have, and that they are going to be doing you a favor by providing it.

[00:19:09] And within reason, you are there to help them, you know, get what they need out of it.

[00:19:16] Maybe it's just a Coke.

[00:19:19] Maybe it's a chance to smoke a cigarette because they've been in jail and haven't been able to do that.

[00:19:23] But whatever it is, you know, you are willing to, you know, get them a sandwich or whatever.

[00:19:30] Sit down with them, you know, as a person in order to start this conversation and get what you need out of that conversation.

[00:19:39] I think you could win over Kevin in an interview with the Coke for sure.

[00:19:43] So I can see that.

[00:19:44] Okay.

[00:19:46] I'm curious, you know, when you came into the FBI and then over the years, I imagine things have changed within any sort of institution, you know, over time.

[00:19:56] But how would you describe the FBI's internal culture for those who may be outsiders who may not have that sort of experience?

[00:20:03] What kind of comes to mind when you think about that?

[00:20:05] And I know people are going to roll their eyes when I say this, but I say family.

[00:20:10] I mean, and I don't know if this is the case with all law enforcement and I doubt it seriously.

[00:20:16] But because of the fact that we transfer, we are usually assigned to an area where we're not originally from.

[00:20:25] You get to understand that the people in your office are your family and we depend on each other.

[00:20:33] I mean, when I was young and, you know, wasn't married and childless, if at the last minute an agent had to go and do something and he needed childcare, he would look at me and say, hey, is there any way?

[00:20:45] You know, I'm not from here.

[00:20:46] I don't have relatives here that you could look at after, you know, my kids today.

[00:20:51] And he would automatically have that trust that, you know, if I was available, I would do it.

[00:20:56] Same thing as far as, you know, getting your car to the shop.

[00:21:00] You depend on the people in your office because you're not from that area.

[00:21:04] You don't have family there to fill in those roles.

[00:21:09] And so that you become very close with the people in the office, not just on your squad, but the entire office.

[00:21:16] And, you know, I'm friends with today the many of the people that I worked with in Philadelphia many years ago.

[00:21:24] Actually, I was able to tour the Philadelphia office a couple of months ago because they fully renovated it.

[00:21:33] It's totally different.

[00:21:35] And I was going to be in Philadelphia.

[00:21:37] And so I called up and was able to arrange to meet with the new special agent in charge and get a tour of the office.

[00:21:43] And it was really nice, even though I've been retired for a long time, that there's a couple, a handful of the agents that were there before I left were still there.

[00:21:53] Just like I said, just two or three.

[00:21:55] But there were many of the support staff, the professional support staff there.

[00:21:59] And it was like we just saw each other yesterday.

[00:22:02] It was really a warm and welcoming tour.

[00:22:05] And I really enjoyed that.

[00:22:07] But it's really nice.

[00:22:09] I'm curious, what are what are most of those sort of regional offices or field offices of the FBI like when you're sort of in them?

[00:22:16] I'm sure a lot of people are imagining the sort of places, workplaces that they see on TV.

[00:22:22] But I'm curious, is the reality a bit different?

[00:22:26] I think the way that it looks is probably about the same.

[00:22:31] In most situations, it is more of a bullpen area that the agents may have cubicles or most of the offices now have been renovated where everybody has a cubicle where you may have to stand up in order to to see each other.

[00:22:47] But it is an open squad area where everybody working on similar violations are sitting.

[00:22:55] So if you are on a violent crime squad, then people working bank robberies and gangs and, you know, they may all be sitting in the same area.

[00:23:06] A white collar crime squad, all those people working frauds and financial crimes are all sitting in the same area.

[00:23:12] And so, yeah, you become a fun little family of dysfunctional family at times.

[00:23:19] But it's fun.

[00:23:20] We laugh.

[00:23:21] We joke.

[00:23:22] We tease each other.

[00:23:23] All of that happens.

[00:23:24] And I love going to work.

[00:23:27] I love going to work every day.

[00:23:29] Was it different day to day what you'd be actually working on or doing or were there some kind of consistencies?

[00:23:36] Well, the consistency is getting out of the office.

[00:23:40] I mean, as an investigator, the work is outside of the office.

[00:23:45] And so you come in and you either have your day already set or you figure out what you want to do.

[00:23:51] And most of that is gathering information, whether that is through an interview of a witness or, you know, a cooperating subject or gathering evidence as far as picking up records or something like that.

[00:24:06] And so it's a matter of coming into the office, you know, setting your day, going out.

[00:24:12] And if, you know, appropriate, coming back at the end of the day to write up your reports before you head home.

[00:24:20] And then I'm curious, you mentioned your work on the Economic Crimes Division.

[00:24:25] How does one come to specialize in a specific area like that?

[00:24:30] Do people switch around frequently?

[00:24:32] How is that determined?

[00:24:32] And then how did you sort of get involved in that specific avenue?

[00:24:37] Yeah, so I like to really stress to everyone, when you come into the FBI, you are a body.

[00:24:44] And if they need a body over on that squad, when you first come into the FBI, that's where you're going.

[00:24:50] And so, I mean, you would think, okay, I'm a CPA.

[00:24:53] I have all these accounting degrees.

[00:24:55] And I'm sure I'm going straight to white collar crime.

[00:24:59] And the next thing you know, you're working, I keep saying bank robberies, but bank robberies.

[00:25:04] And, you know, they needed somebody at bank robberies.

[00:25:07] Now, if you are, you know, a great worker and you've been there for a while and at some point you're ready to make that move,

[00:25:15] you want to be able to use your experiences and your education and in your work,

[00:25:20] then it's a matter of going to that squad and talking to the supervisor saying,

[00:25:24] hey, look, you know, I really would like to come to this squad if you have any openings.

[00:25:28] And, you know, I really would like you to consider letting me make that move.

[00:25:33] And for most likely, you know, if you are a hard worker, you know, that you've already shown that you're somebody that he or she would want on that squad,

[00:25:43] then you're going to be able to make that move.

[00:25:45] But initially, you're a body.

[00:25:47] You know, that's what you are.

[00:25:49] You're a body.

[00:25:50] And I had no idea what I was going to do when I got into the FBI.

[00:25:55] I probably was thinking maybe I would work espionage and spy stuff because I'm a big reader, as you know.

[00:26:03] I'm really into crime fiction and thrillers and all of that.

[00:26:09] So that's probably what I wanted to do.

[00:26:11] And I was put on a government fraud squad.

[00:26:14] Now, I was not as excited about being on a government fraud squad because the victim is the government.

[00:26:21] And that is kind of, you know, kind of boring, you know.

[00:26:27] But when I was transferred, that was in Sacramento, which was one of my first offices.

[00:26:33] I was there for a short time.

[00:26:35] When I got to Philadelphia, again, I was on the government fraud squad.

[00:26:38] Not that excited.

[00:26:39] But I eventually got to the economic crime squad, which is still fraud.

[00:26:45] But there's a real victim, whether that be an elderly couple or a business owner or, you know, just someone who has been, you know, deceived by con men.

[00:26:59] There's a true victim that you can talk to.

[00:27:01] You can feel the emotion from them of having been defrauded.

[00:27:05] And, you know, all of their thoughts and their emotions as you're talking to them helps to motivate you in wanting to give them justice.

[00:27:14] And I really, really loved working the fraud cases.

[00:27:20] I'd like to talk about a couple of the cases you worked on.

[00:27:23] One that you covered on your podcast was a telemarketing case involving a guy named Carl, last name unknown.

[00:27:31] You don't want to use his last name.

[00:27:32] And that was interesting because we talked about the FBI playing with others.

[00:27:37] You worked with other agencies.

[00:27:39] And also, like one of the people being investigated actually ended up cooperating.

[00:27:44] Can you talk a little bit about that case?

[00:27:47] Yeah.

[00:27:47] So business-to-business telemarketing is a little different than the telemarketing calls we get.

[00:27:54] It's where a business is scheming to defraud another business.

[00:28:01] And in this particular case, they were selling maintenance products, you know, light bulbs and duct tape and cleaning supplies.

[00:28:10] But the reason it was fraudulent was two reasons.

[00:28:15] The main one being that they were compromising the procurement officer who worked at that company.

[00:28:22] And so the reason that the overbilling, because of course they were charging 10 times what the products would cost if this company got them from someplace else.

[00:28:32] The reason those bills went through, those overbilling, those overinvoiced items went through, was because the procurement officer or whoever was in charge of ordering had already been compromised by them sending him a gift.

[00:28:50] And that gift could be a TV.

[00:28:53] It could be a watch machine.

[00:28:55] It could be a riding lawnmower.

[00:28:57] But they were sending him these gifts to his home, which should have indicated to them that something was wrong, in order for him to approve those invoices and get them paid.

[00:29:12] And so that's what we did.

[00:29:14] For some reason, I don't know if it's just Philadelphia, but it was a big deal.

[00:29:20] It was called the light bulb industry because light bulbs were one of the big things that they sold at overpriced.

[00:29:26] But there were lots and lots of these companies in Philadelphia.

[00:29:31] And when we heard about it, we targeted 16 of them.

[00:29:35] So my particular group two undercover case involved 16 companies that we took down at one time.

[00:29:45] So, you know, actually ended up being 18 search warrants that we executed over a two-day period.

[00:29:51] So that was, I really enjoyed being in charge of that case, which I worked with with the Postal Inspection Service.

[00:30:01] They were my partners.

[00:30:03] I worked that case with a postal inspector.

[00:30:07] What was that like?

[00:30:08] I think that's probably a group that not a lot of people necessarily hear about too much within true crime.

[00:30:15] But, like, what was your experience like with them?

[00:30:18] Well, one of the main things that they investigate, of course, is mail fraud.

[00:30:22] And when you have a, and, you know, maybe not so much nowadays when everything's online.

[00:30:29] So, but back then when we were working those type of cases, I mean, lots of those documents were going through the mail.

[00:30:37] We also, of course, had wire fraud.

[00:30:40] And those are wire fraud and mail fraud are the bread and butter of violations and charges when it comes to economic crime cases.

[00:30:51] And so it was really very interesting working with them because they have some tools like mail covers.

[00:30:58] A mail cover is when you do not, you're not allowed to open an envelope or open a package.

[00:31:05] But a mail cover will at least let you know where, what type of mail and what type of exchanges a particular company is getting.

[00:31:14] You'll just get the fact that they, this particular envelope addressed from this particular person has been received by your subject.

[00:31:26] And that's always very helpful in investigations.

[00:31:29] And so those are the type of tools that they had that by working with the Postal Inspection Service, you were able to take advantage of.

[00:31:38] And then I'm curious, what is it like being a part of such a large raid where you're sort of serving these search warrants across different days, all these businesses?

[00:31:47] I imagine that logistically is a lot more complicated than we think of when we're just seeing the results of the FBI agents storming in.

[00:31:55] So talk us through that.

[00:31:57] Yeah, that is kind of fun.

[00:31:58] And, you know, as a case agent, that's where you really have to use your organizational and managerial skills because you're probably not going out on any of them.

[00:32:10] I mean, you're going to be back at the command post, you know, at the FBI office, you know, taking those phone calls, making those directions, coordinating the activity of the people that you have been able to assign as team leaders for each of your searches.

[00:32:26] You know, you know your case better than anyone else.

[00:32:29] And so you need to make yourself available as your these different teams that you've been able to organize go out there and execute these searches.

[00:32:39] And so, yeah, it's it's really interesting.

[00:32:42] And, you know, it puts your party planning skills at the highest level when, you know, you orchestrate a takedown that's this large.

[00:32:54] I sort of imagine you like the NASA flight director with the space shuttle, like telling everyone what to do.

[00:33:00] Yeah. And, you know, I was able to do that, you know, several times during my career.

[00:33:04] And it really is exciting to kind of look at yourself saying, yeah, I got this.

[00:33:12] You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm in charge.

[00:33:15] And I think that's one of the also the myths that I talk about is that people are surprised at the autonomy that agents have.

[00:33:24] I mean, you are your as a case agent.

[00:33:27] You're kind of running everything when it comes to your case.

[00:33:30] You're making decisions.

[00:33:33] About, you know, when you're going to go to work, you know, you're making decisions about, you know, money that you might need for resources and your case that you might have to buy.

[00:33:44] You're making decisions about manpower.

[00:33:47] Do you need someone else to go out with you?

[00:33:49] Do you need to engage the surveillance team to go out with you, the SWAT team?

[00:33:56] And you're making those decisions on your case, who you're going to interview, when you're going to interview them.

[00:34:02] There is nobody, you know, standing behind you dictating what you do as an FBI agent.

[00:34:09] Actually, you may not even talk to your supervisor about your case for three months because we have 90 day file reviews, at which time they're going to look at what you've been working on.

[00:34:21] You know, give you some advice if they if they're if they know that they're knowledgeable about what you're working on.

[00:34:28] Give you some suggestions.

[00:34:29] Look at what you've done and, you know, assess your your your progress.

[00:34:34] But other than that, you know, you're coming in every day and making those decisions, making sure that, you know, you're self-motivated and a self-starter and getting the work done.

[00:34:46] There's, again, nobody standing over you telling you what to do.

[00:34:51] I know a lot of times when we're looking at a TV show or watching a TV show.

[00:34:57] You know, you have an attorney there, you know, telling you exactly I need you to do this and I need you to interview this.

[00:35:04] And, you know, that may be the case locally where you have a district attorney's office and they have investigators working for you.

[00:35:11] But in most situations, even locally, the investigators are working the case, maybe, you know, checking in with prosecutors to, you know, to get subpoenas and to talk about, you know, letters that might need to be sent out or grand jury.

[00:35:31] But most of the time, the investigator is running that case, then presenting it to the prosecutor and then being an assistant to that prosecutor as they take it to the next level.

[00:35:46] So would you agree with that assessment, Kevin, as an attorney?

[00:35:50] I would.

[00:35:50] I know what it's like having an attorney telling me what to do all day, though.

[00:35:53] So I'm not very much like an FBI agent.

[00:35:58] Yeah, but it really is not that way as an agent.

[00:36:01] There are maybe some cases that you work almost completely without even talking to in detail to one of the prosecutors because you know where you're going and you know the elements of the case.

[00:36:13] Now, of course, we always get that what we call prosecutorial merit.

[00:36:20] Is there a merit to this case?

[00:36:22] Because if it's something different and something that is not usual because there's no way you want to work and spend all that time on a case that when you take it to, you know, an attorney, they say, you know, there's nothing here.

[00:36:36] There's not enough here for me to want to prosecute this.

[00:36:40] So you want to check in with them.

[00:36:41] But most of the time, as an FBI agent, you know, you are running that case and working that case, you know, before it gets to that next step.

[00:36:53] Sounds like case agents have a lot of experience and need to have a lot of experience in order to do that well.

[00:36:59] And I'm curious, like, how long does it take to the point where you're getting assigned cases sort of as the lead agent?

[00:37:05] And then my follow-up for that is when things go wrong, does it kind of come back on the case agent or are there ways that kind of everyone can help deal with challenges?

[00:37:14] Well, here's another surprise.

[00:37:16] When do you start becoming the lead agent on a case?

[00:37:20] Day one.

[00:37:21] Day one.

[00:37:23] So that is one of the reasons why the average age of an agent coming on board is 30, 31.

[00:37:32] We are looking in most situations for somebody who has already been established in their career,

[00:37:40] who has already been able to, you know, show and demonstrate that they can, you know, handle a case like this.

[00:37:49] And, you know, so this is really a second career opportunity.

[00:37:54] Now, there are some positions and jobs, say, in cyber that we know if we don't snatch somebody up right away,

[00:38:02] by the time they're experienced enough to do the work that we want them to do,

[00:38:06] that their salary is, you know, so high above what the FBI could offer that we have lost them forever.

[00:38:14] So there are some areas and some people that we might want to get.

[00:38:19] And that's why it's an average.

[00:38:21] An average, of course, means that we hire people that are younger and we hire people that are older, not older than 37.

[00:38:27] You cannot have reached your 37th birthday to become an FBI agent.

[00:38:32] But there's a range of people.

[00:38:34] But most of the people, again, are in that 30 to 31 age group because we're looking for people that are experienced who can, as the saying goes, hit the ground running.

[00:38:47] And from that day, when they walk into their first office, their first assignment, and there's a...

[00:38:52] I'm talking old school now because I'm thinking about when I first came in where I say there's a stack of cases sitting on your desk.

[00:39:01] They're probably, you know, now sitting on your computer.

[00:39:05] But there's a stack of cases there waiting for you.

[00:39:08] Cases that maybe there wasn't anybody available.

[00:39:12] New cases that came in that the supervisor wasn't able to assign anyone because there was no one available.

[00:39:19] Or maybe you're replacing somebody who had been on that squad who has gone someplace else.

[00:39:25] And so you're taking over her new cases.

[00:39:27] But there are cases waiting for you when you get there.

[00:39:31] And you're expected, just like anyone else, to, you know, to roll with those cases and to work them.

[00:39:38] You know, hopefully you'll have squad members or a training agent that will, you know, give you some idea of what you're doing.

[00:39:46] And, of course, you've gone through the number of weeks of training.

[00:39:51] I don't even know how long training is now, whether it's 16 weeks or 20 weeks or more than 20 weeks.

[00:39:57] It keeps changing every time I turn around.

[00:40:00] But, you know, hopefully you've got those skills or you're picking up the skills.

[00:40:04] But, yeah, you're expected from day one to be able to be a case agent.

[00:40:09] And those cases are assigned to you.

[00:40:12] That's amazing.

[00:40:13] You know, for most of us, when we think of the FBI, the public face of the FBI is like the FBI director.

[00:40:19] Be it like a James Comey.

[00:40:20] We've had him on the show or a Christopher Wray.

[00:40:22] So I'm curious, how much of a difference does an individual FBI director make for FBI agents?

[00:40:30] None.

[00:40:33] That was easy.

[00:40:34] Yeah, that was easy.

[00:40:36] And, you know, I've met both of them.

[00:40:38] I've had Christopher Wray, who is the current FBI director on my show for my 300th episode, which was a real coup.

[00:40:45] If you look him up, he's done no other podcast other than maybe, you know, a news show that turned an interview into a podcast episode.

[00:40:54] So I was really, really lucky to get him on my show.

[00:40:58] But, I mean, he's the head of the office.

[00:41:01] But when it comes to working in, you know, Chicago or, you know, Louisiana or, you know, any of the different states and offices we have, headquarters and headquarters involvement is usually pretty minimal.

[00:41:20] And so, you know, unless it's a huge, you know, national level case, who's at headquarters and who's running the FBI has little to do with the work that you're doing day-to-day basis in your particular division or office.

[00:41:39] As we mentioned in our introduction, which we haven't recorded yet, the name of your podcast is FBI Retired Case File Review.

[00:41:47] And it's a terrific podcast.

[00:41:49] The first two words are FBI retired.

[00:41:52] So before we talk about the podcast, what made you decide it was time to retire from the FBI?

[00:41:57] For most agents, they retire.

[00:42:00] We have a mandatory retirement of 57, which a lot of people are shocked about also.

[00:42:07] I mean, you can probably, if you really have a case that you're working on, you could ask for an extension, probably up to the age of 60.

[00:42:17] But it's very, very rare.

[00:42:19] You've got to really have a case that you are the only one that can do that case, or the institutional knowledge you have is so important that they give you an extension.

[00:42:30] But most of the time, you're kicked out the door as soon as you reach your 57th birthday, which means for most agents, they start to leave in their early 50s because 57 is a little too young to retire.

[00:42:44] And if you're interested in getting a post-FBI job, you're more marketable at 50.

[00:42:50] And so that's exactly what happened with me.

[00:42:53] I was minding my own business.

[00:42:55] At that time, I had become the media representative or spokesperson in Philadelphia.

[00:43:01] And I got a call that there was an opening at SEPTA, which is the Philadelphia Transit Agency that handles the buses and the trains and the trolleys and the subways.

[00:43:13] And they were looking for a new media director.

[00:43:16] And it was like, I can't pass this up.

[00:43:20] You know, this is an opportunity that if I don't take it now, may not come back around again, because that person could be there for 10 to 20 years.

[00:43:29] And so I raised my hand and I applied and was able to get that job, which was very similar to what I was doing in the FBI because it was mission focused.

[00:43:43] You know, they were trying to get those trains out every day on time.

[00:43:47] And it also had a very strong law enforcement focus because of safety concerns, you know, on the transportation.

[00:43:57] So I did that for seven years after I retired from the FBI and absolutely loved it and thought it was the second most interesting and fun job that I had during my career.

[00:44:12] Tell us about your podcast.

[00:44:14] Well, the podcast, as you said, is called FBI Retired Case File Review.

[00:44:19] And I just exclusively interview FBI employees.

[00:44:25] Most of the time, majority of the time, it's an FBI agent because I want to do a case file review.

[00:44:33] I want to take a case from the very beginning when it's predicated, when they open that case to the very end, when hopefully somebody goes to prison, you know, to sentencing.

[00:44:43] And so the case reviews are usually at least an hour.

[00:44:47] I've had some that are three or four hours and I had to do a part one and a part two.

[00:44:52] But we really do a deep dive into FBI investigations.

[00:44:57] I've been lucky to interview the original case agents from Watergate or from the Unabomber, Oklahoma City bombing, from, of course, 9-11, you know, from the first world trade center bombings.

[00:45:12] I've been able to get those institutionally significant, historically significant cases, you know, reviewed on my show, the Boston Marathon bombings.

[00:45:23] But I've also done lots of other cases and case reviews that you've never heard about, but are absolutely fascinating when you hear about not just the investigation and how the agents investigated the case,

[00:45:39] but the emotional and personal sacrifices and tolls that it took on their own lives.

[00:45:46] I've seen, I've had agents that are, you know, very, very open about they were so engrossed in their case and working their case that their wife walked out the door and it didn't even bother them at the time because they were just so concentrated on getting the subject into prison.

[00:46:06] And, you know, missing time with their kids that they're never going to get back.

[00:46:11] Having these case reviews and giving the agents the time to talk about the case and think about the case is I don't ask a lot of questions.

[00:46:20] You know, I get them started and then just like we do in an actual FBI investigation, I get out of the way.

[00:46:28] And then once they're talking, I just step back and let them go unless I need to jump in for clarification or something they said just demands me to comment.

[00:46:40] But yeah, so they're more like presentations.

[00:46:42] And the thing that's so exciting about it, and I hope you can hear that in my voice, is that I'm fascinated by them, too.

[00:46:50] I am absolutely fascinated by the case reviews.

[00:46:54] And so one of the reasons I don't have to jump in a lot is because I just want to hear what they're saying.

[00:47:01] I want to hear where the case is going next.

[00:47:04] And so, yeah, I'm absolutely thrilled about it.

[00:47:07] I've been doing it for more than eight years.

[00:47:10] I started in January of 2016.

[00:47:13] I have 300.

[00:47:15] I think I'm going to be posting 322, you know, my 322nd episode next week.

[00:47:24] And I find all the cases and all of the people that I interview, whether they're agents or professional staff, people that head up a particular program, I find them all fascinating.

[00:47:36] I just want to say we could not recommend this show enough.

[00:47:39] I mean, I think our listeners appreciate hearing from the people directly involved in a case.

[00:47:44] And this is where you go if you want that, especially just with all these fascinating FBI cases.

[00:47:49] It's a great listen.

[00:47:51] And I think it's also just super important, as you said, to kind of get to know what it is like personally to do this difficult, exciting, but difficult work.

[00:48:00] And I'm curious, you know, in terms of what made you decide to start it?

[00:48:05] I mean, what was that like?

[00:48:06] Like, were you kind of worried at first if anyone would talk to you about it?

[00:48:10] You've gotten so many people to open up about their experiences.

[00:48:13] But what was it like to start that process and start trying to find people to talk to you?

[00:48:18] Well, first of all, I have to say that I had I did not set out to be a podcaster.

[00:48:23] You know, my I actually left my job with the Philly Transit Agency because I had a book that a crime novel that I was trying to to to to get published.

[00:48:37] And my agent at the time says, you know, you need to establish a platform, have people that are going to be ready to to read your book when it comes out.

[00:48:45] And so I thought, well, you know, I know my way behind a microphone and the camera because I was doing media relations at the time.

[00:48:55] And so I thought and I have all these people that I know.

[00:48:58] I was at the time the vice chair of the Philadelphia Ex Agents Association.

[00:49:04] And so I saw all these retired agents on a regular basis at our meetings.

[00:49:08] And I thought, I'll just start interviewing some of my friends.

[00:49:11] And at the beginning, you'll see that a lot of the interviews are with people that were from Philadelphia or associated with Philadelphia in some way that I that I got to know.

[00:49:22] And so the whole purpose of the podcast was to help me sell more books and find more readers.

[00:49:28] And then in September of 2016, we had an election.

[00:49:34] You know, we had an election.

[00:49:36] We had a campaign where the FBI got pulled.

[00:49:39] Oh, so unfortunately, into the political turmoil, I have to say.

[00:49:46] And it was to a point where things were being said about the FBI and the podcast just really took off because people I've never political.

[00:49:55] I'm never partisan.

[00:49:57] I wasn't as an agent.

[00:49:59] Agents aren't even today are not political or partisan and what they do.

[00:50:04] So I make sure I keep that same focus on the podcast.

[00:50:11] But what I do is allow the case reviews to speak for the FBI to show who we really are and what we really do.

[00:50:22] And so, you know, somebody is questioning whether, you know, something's being followed correctly for a search, you know, warrant being executed.

[00:50:32] Well, listen to some of the episodes, see how search warrants were executed in those cases and see if there really was a difference or not.

[00:50:40] You know, so I don't need to be political.

[00:50:42] I don't need to make any political comments, which I don't even on social media because I let the case reviews speak for themselves.

[00:50:51] And I've kind of gotten I just jumped on a band on a bad wagon.

[00:50:55] I forgot what I was talking about.

[00:50:57] But basically, I started the case.

[00:50:59] I started the podcast to sell more books and find new readers.

[00:51:03] And next thing I knew, I have become really known as a podcaster and the podcast kind of has taken over my life.

[00:51:13] And, you know, even though I have four books out, I think that if I hadn't started the podcast, I may have had 20 out by now.

[00:51:21] Well, listen, I mean, we're not we're not authors, but we can relate to a podcast taking over your life.

[00:51:27] So yes, we can all go in a support group together.

[00:51:30] Tell us.

[00:51:31] Absolutely.

[00:51:32] Tell us about your books.

[00:51:33] OK, so I started out and still consider myself to be, you know, a crime writer, you know, a crime novelist.

[00:51:41] And I just absolutely love crime fiction, have always loved crime fiction.

[00:51:47] I think even before I became an agent.

[00:51:49] And I think that's one of the reasons that, again, the possibility of joining the FBI at the time was not something I just said, oh, this is not for me because I was already into crime novels.

[00:52:01] And so my books, of course, feature a black female agent who investigates fraud and corruption.

[00:52:10] And the first book that I put out, pay to play is about the same character, Carrie Wheeler, who is investigating corruption in the Philadelphia strip club industry.

[00:52:24] And it is based on a true case to very attractive female agents.

[00:52:28] Friends of mine were working this case and just hearing their stories about the strippers and the patrons and the owners and reading the newspaper articles that were in the paper every single day just fascinated me.

[00:52:41] And I had always wanted to write a book.

[00:52:43] And I knew that this was going to be a great book to fictionalize and do that.

[00:52:49] So the book is surprising for many people because I wrote it.

[00:52:53] And, you know, they don't hear me cursing.

[00:52:56] I don't even I don't smoke.

[00:52:58] I don't even drink alcohol.

[00:53:00] But for me to write this book that is full of curse words and sexual assault and sexual activity.

[00:53:08] And, you know, they were really surprised that I wrote it.

[00:53:11] And I always joke that my husband was shocked and it was a little upset that people would think that the character was with me because she is unfaithful.

[00:53:19] And I have never been.

[00:53:22] And I make sure I stress that this character is not me, although you'll see lots of similarities with her being an Air Force brat and having three kids, two of them, which are twin daughters.

[00:53:36] But that part I might have taken from my life.

[00:53:41] But, no, I have never cheated on my husband.

[00:53:43] So, yeah, we're not the same, you know, not not not the same people at all.

[00:53:51] But I love that book.

[00:53:52] I really, really love that book.

[00:53:55] And the second book is as her continuing her redemption story.

[00:54:03] And, you know, this one has no sex scenes in it at all.

[00:54:07] Maybe one or two curse words.

[00:54:11] But it does have Bible scriptures throughout the book.

[00:54:14] So because her subject at the time and this particular book called Greedy Givers is the founder of a Christian organization that ends up being a Ponzi scheme, taking money from philanthropists and donors who are hoping to give back to their Christian nonprofits.

[00:54:37] And so it does.

[00:54:39] And so it's also based on a true case, my $350 million Ponzi scheme case that I worked in Philadelphia.

[00:54:47] So, yeah.

[00:54:47] So those two were fictionalized.

[00:54:49] And I'm now working on two more books with a different character.

[00:54:54] But she's also a black female.

[00:54:56] She is childless and she's married.

[00:54:59] But she's also working fraud and corruption in the Philadelphia industry.

[00:55:03] And, you know, two cases that I've taken.

[00:55:07] Again, true crime cases that were based on fraud and corruption in Philadelphia that I have turned into a crime novel.

[00:55:18] I shouldn't say they're based on it.

[00:55:20] They're those cases, those true crime cases inspired the new the new the new novels.

[00:55:27] That makes sense.

[00:55:28] And, you know, I'm curious, when can we expect the new books to come out potentially?

[00:55:35] I have no idea.

[00:55:36] I am working.

[00:55:37] I have a new literary agent with the Liza Royce Agency.

[00:55:41] And I have no idea.

[00:55:44] Traditional publishing, you know, can take a couple of years before your book comes out.

[00:55:50] So I got to finish these books and then we have to sell them to a publisher.

[00:55:53] But, you know, hopefully sometime in 2026.

[00:55:59] I'm very patient.

[00:56:00] So I got the podcast keeping me busy.

[00:56:04] So I'll get these books done and then we'll get them out there.

[00:56:07] Well, we can't wait to read them.

[00:56:09] I want to ask you, obviously, your experience with the FBI had a huge impact on the inspiration for some of these stories.

[00:56:15] But are there any times when you're sort of engaging with a mystery as a crime author and you realize, like, okay, every other author would do this.

[00:56:25] But I know that that's not the case.

[00:56:27] So I'm not going to do it.

[00:56:28] Can you tell us about some of those examples?

[00:56:31] Yeah.

[00:56:31] And I think sometimes it makes it a little harder because I know how things really work as I'm writing my book.

[00:56:37] I know the cliche way of how an author might move the story forward, but I can't do it because I know that's not how it's done.

[00:56:47] And so I had to find my own way of making it still very entertaining and exciting, you know, because the most important thing is the story.

[00:56:57] I say that to everyone.

[00:56:59] And, you know, even as I read the book, you'll look at that last chapter.

[00:57:02] I say that very clearly that these are all the cliches and all the things that people get wrong.

[00:57:09] But if your story needs you to deviate from the truth, if you need to compromise, you know, how things are done to make your story work, then do that.

[00:57:22] You know, with the understanding that somebody may decide they want to throw the book across the room or throw their shoe at the TV set if they're watching a show.

[00:57:33] But do it if you truly believe that that's the best thing for your story.

[00:57:37] You know, sometimes as an author, you know, I'm looking at a story that either I'm writing or somebody else has written and I roll my eyes, but I can keep reading it.

[00:57:46] We talk a lot about those shows like The X-Files, Our Fringe, where they're totally, totally made up and they don't really exist.

[00:57:58] You know that, right?

[00:57:59] There's no X-Files.

[00:58:01] There's no attractive partners.

[00:58:04] You have simmering chemistry with one another looking into monsters of the week.

[00:58:08] There may be partners that are attracted.

[00:58:12] I mean, there were seven married FBI couples in the Philadelphia office when I was there.

[00:58:18] So that part is true.

[00:58:20] But if they're looking into monsters and aliens, no, I may be wrong.

[00:58:25] Maybe it was that I was not at the need to know level to know about them.

[00:58:30] But as far as I know, no, those investigations and cases did not exist.

[00:58:39] Love it.

[00:58:39] Well, I mean, is there anything we didn't ask you about?

[00:58:42] This has been so wonderful chatting with you.

[00:58:44] Anything we didn't ask you about, about the books, podcasts, your experience, anything like that?

[00:58:50] No.

[00:58:50] Again, I'm motivated not just by the FBI, but by FBI stories.

[00:58:57] And, you know, the fact that, you know, I can be help other writers, whether they're screenwriters or, you know, novelists get the FBI right in their stories is very gratifying for me.

[00:59:12] Of course, I have the book out.

[00:59:13] And I don't know if you're aware, but every month I watch a TV show or a movie and look for teachable moments about the FBI.

[00:59:22] And I think that's fun to do, too.

[00:59:26] I really enjoy that because I'm going to watch them anyway.

[00:59:28] So if I see something that will help me teach somebody more about what the FBI does, then I do that.

[00:59:37] But I have to say that one of the I look back in your back list of episodes and I saw that you had interviewed Scott Turow, who is one of my favorite authors.

[00:59:50] Have you been watching his show on Apple, Presumed Innocence?

[00:59:56] So that's one of my favorite books.

[00:59:58] We do the thing where we like switch out our streaming service every so often.

[01:00:02] So when Apple comes up, that's like the number one thing we're really excited.

[01:00:06] We love Scott.

[01:00:07] Yeah, we love it.

[01:00:08] Yeah.

[01:00:08] Yeah.

[01:00:08] I love that interview.

[01:00:10] John Grisham is also one of my favorites.

[01:00:12] Of course, there's a theme here because they, you know, they both do the legal thrillers.

[01:00:16] Of course, John Grisham does a lot of the fraud cases.

[01:00:18] And so, yeah, it's always exciting to, you know, listen to them talk about, you know, their own process, you know, and get an idea of, you know, how they write their books.

[01:00:32] So I really appreciated having that opportunity to listen to you interview him.

[01:00:37] That was good.

[01:00:38] But you have to watch Presumed Innocent.

[01:00:40] It is so good.

[01:00:42] Jake Gyllenhaal and all the other actors in that show are so great.

[01:00:48] You know, it's good.

[01:00:49] You've got to check that out.

[01:00:50] Thank you so much.

[01:00:51] And I actually do want to ask you an additional craft question since you brought those up.

[01:00:55] Who are your biggest author influences?

[01:00:58] And then part two to that is just how do you sit down to tell a story?

[01:01:03] What are some of the processes that you use in terms of like actually getting it from your head to the page?

[01:01:09] Well, definitely John Grisham.

[01:01:11] I mean, there is a book that he has.

[01:01:14] Of course, you have shows like The Firm or books of his like The Firm that actually cover the FBI.

[01:01:21] And of course, I review that.

[01:01:23] You know, that review is on my website too.

[01:01:27] But he has a book called The Testament that I don't hear a lot of people talking about, but it's one of my favorite books of his.

[01:01:37] And it's just so powerful.

[01:01:39] And so, you know, I encourage people to check that out.

[01:01:42] So he's one of my favorites, definitely, to read.

[01:01:46] And of course, everybody reads Michael Connolly and, you know, his police procedurals.

[01:01:52] I'm a very big police.

[01:01:53] That's what I write, police procedurals.

[01:01:55] And so I also read a lot of the people that write those too.

[01:02:00] And as far as my process, I'm an outliner.

[01:02:05] So when I find a case that I want to fictionalize, because I like that inspiration of having a true crime case and then taking it to the extreme.

[01:02:17] You know, really pulling out the story and creating, you know, characters and subjects that can really enhance what that true, where that true crime story went.

[01:02:28] And really giving me the background of what maybe that subject was thinking.

[01:02:37] You know, what motivated him or her to commit that particular crime and then look into the mind of the investigator and what's motivating her as an agent.

[01:02:49] And how is that affecting her as she's investigating?

[01:02:52] Another great author is Joseph Wambaugh.

[01:02:59] You know him?

[01:03:00] Yeah, he's so great.

[01:03:01] And he has this saying where a good crime story is not about how a cop works on a case, but how a case works on a cop.

[01:03:15] And all of my books, books that I write and the books that I like to read are really redemption stories where you watch the motivation of the subject and the investigator and the agent as they go through working on a case and how that particular case affects them personally and emotionally.

[01:03:41] That's what I'm about.

[01:03:44] I love it.

[01:03:45] Well, Jerry, it's been so delightful talking to you.

[01:03:47] Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.

[01:03:49] I really could not stress enough.

[01:03:51] People need to check out your books.

[01:03:53] People need to check out your show.

[01:03:54] It's terrific.

[01:03:55] What you're doing is awesome.

[01:03:57] And it's just a pleasure speaking with you.

[01:03:59] So thank you.

[01:04:00] Thank you so much.

[01:04:00] Yeah, thank you both, too.

[01:04:02] This was exciting, especially for Anya and I to come kind of full circle after all these years.

[01:04:07] I think it was like 2016 that you did that article.

[01:04:11] What shocked me when I went back and found it.

[01:04:14] I was it was surreal seeing people bring up one of my articles.

[01:04:18] I got the inspiration for this because people were talking in Facebook.

[01:04:21] Like, why don't they have Jerry Williams on?

[01:04:22] And I was like, why the heck haven't we?

[01:04:24] So I was so I was so excited to talk to you again.

[01:04:27] And I was like, oh, my gosh, is she even going to remember me?

[01:04:29] Like, I was just gonna be like, oh, absolutely.

[01:04:31] And I think we have communicated on different things after that article.

[01:04:36] So, yeah, no, of course, I was excited when the email came through also.

[01:04:42] So I said, absolutely.

[01:04:44] Yes.

[01:04:44] I want to be a guest on your show.

[01:04:46] So thank you for having me.

[01:04:47] Thank you for coming.

[01:04:49] All right.

[01:04:49] All right.

[01:04:50] Thank you again.

[01:04:51] All right.

[01:04:51] Bye bye.

[01:04:52] We really appreciate her speaking with us today.

[01:04:55] You can listen to Jerry's podcast, FBI Retired Case File Review, wherever you get your podcasts.

[01:05:01] Of course, we will link to the show in our show notes, along with links to Jerry's book,

[01:05:06] FBI Myths and Misconceptions, a manual for armchair detectives and her novels.

[01:05:11] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:05:13] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[01:05:22] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate

[01:05:29] authorities.

[01:05:31] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:05:41] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:05:52] We very much appreciate any support.

[01:05:55] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and

[01:06:01] who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:06:05] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the

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[01:06:18] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot

[01:06:24] of messages.

[01:06:25] Thanks again for listening.

[01:06:28] So it's the holiday season right now, and you might be looking for things to gift both your

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[01:08:19] And so basically what the CBD does is kind of yells at our brains to just go to bed, which we need.

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[01:08:26] Oh, God, Kevin.

[01:08:27] Maybe I should go get some of this.

[01:08:28] Don't start.

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[01:08:33] I'm really stressing out here on you.

[01:08:34] Kevin, take your Zen.

[01:08:37] Take your Zen and shut up.

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