A Conversation with Scot Thomasson About the ATF, Gun Violence, and Going Undercover

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, gun violence, and suicide. If you are dealing with a mental health crisis or suicidal thoughts and you're in the United States, please call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Although it doesn't receive as much ink as agencies like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives serves a very important role in investigating many violent crimes.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And recently, we got some direct insight into what it's like to be an ATF agent.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We were fortunate enough to attend the National Trauma Journalism Symposium at Franklin College in Franklin, Indiana.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Journalist and author Susan Hendricks invited us to come participate in her keynote talk.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Afterwards, Kevin got into speaking with a man named Scott Thomasson.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty quickly, he realized we needed to ask him on the show.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott has an amazing resume.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: In 1987, he joined the State Department, working counterterrorism and counterintelligence and protecting foreign dignitaries and United States officials alike.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: After five and a half years, he transferred to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, or the ATF.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He became an ATF special agent and worked with that bureau for over 20 years.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He served in the ATF's field office in Colorado Springs.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He also worked as a sniper with the special response team, as the resident agent in charge of Northern Indiana, as the director of the Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Initiative, as the chief of public affairs, and then as the chief of the firearms operation division.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: He earned numerous awards during his time there.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Gun violence is a pervasive issue in the United States.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time, conversations around gun culture and firearms regulation are contentious and highly politicized.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: People on both sides feel very strongly.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully one thing that everyone can agree on, though, is that there's not necessarily going to be a silver bullet, so to speak, that immediately fixes the problem.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, Scott spoke with us about what it's like to be an ATF agent, from busting criminals to going undercover to purchase cocaine.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about gun violence and possible solutions, why many gun industry players want change, why it's important to remember that most gun owners are not the problem,

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and why the pernicious myth that the ATF wants to confiscate lawful gun owners' weapons is also likely a practical impossibility.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: In tomorrow's episode, Scott will talk to us about a project he's involved in that could revolutionize how cold cases are solved.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a conversation with Scott Thomason about the ATF, gun violence, and going undercover.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess to start off with, tell us a bit about your professional background.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I started out long, long ago, back about 1987, and I actually was recruited into the U.S. Department of State.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I ended up working and living in Central and South America for most of my tenure with State, which is five and a half years.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Following that, I transferred over to ATF and started out of the Colorado Springs field office as an agent working the field.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of my career I spent focused on violent crime and then violent crime strategies.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And what I did was I was able to apply my lessons learned of working as an agent in the street, doing undercover, being a case agent.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And then at my various positions as I worked my way through the agency.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I retired as chief of the firearms division for ATF.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: During my move through the agency, I was actually asked to develop a violent crime reduction strategy for urban areas, rural areas.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That was funded by Congress and is still in existence today, 20 years later.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's called violent crime impact teams.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's those violent crime impact teams and that strategy to reduce firearms-related violence and homicides, which I received myself and Eric Varden, my partner on that, received the Attorney General of the United States Award.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But also, which is the foundation for a lot of work that is still being conducted today in addressing home invasions and homicides in urban cities.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: What sort of things did you do with the State Department?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I did a lot of counterintelligence type of work, security work.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I did a lot of high threat dignitary protection.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: If there were three confirmed sources that somebody was going to be assassinated or killed, we would get involved.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And predominantly had a myriad of different assignments.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But for my time in Central and South America, it was counterintelligence, counterterrorism.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the time it was in the United States, I worked predominantly dignitary protection.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I was part of a special react team that exists within the State Department.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And then in terms of transferring to the ATF, what drew you there?

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: What made you make that transfer?

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There were several things.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: First off is I'd been on the road my last two years with the State Department, averaging about 360 days a year per year for two years.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd spent a lot of months overseas away, three months here, six months there.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And after about five and a half years, I realized that I wanted to be a little bit closer to home.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd started raising a family.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is, is I wanted to do more traditional law enforcement of criminal investigations.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to be able to investigate violent criminals operating within the United States, not just overseas.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So what kind of cases did you work on with the ATF?

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I was in a general group.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So initially I was working firearms trafficking investigations, homicide investigations, bombing investigations, some arson investigations.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But mainly everything that ATF does is violent crime.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, 100% of what ATF does is investigate violent crime in the area of responsibility where you're an agent.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So I did actually some national cases, cartel cases, but investigations that went as far as California and up to the Canadian border and all the way down to the Mexican border.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But all of them had a level of violence.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: All of them had firearms.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And just about every one had narcotics involved in.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was actually reading about some of the cases you were involved with.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: One of them, I may be mispronouncing this, Christopher Valet or Val.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's an instance where at one point you're working undercover.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You go into a bar where you're meeting with five armed men to buy drugs and cocaine.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's very obviously a very high pressure, dangerous situation.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you handle that?

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's unfortunately, you kind of get used to doing that.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So you handle it a lot better than you would actually realize because it's so commonplace.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We do it all the time.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And with the level of violence and the type of work that we're doing, you're doing it almost every day.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: In that case in particular, and it is Valley, Christopher Valley.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: In that case, the people we were meeting with had actually robbed a cartel stash house in California and stolen about 54 kilos of cocaine and then actually killed the occupants.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: They were moving across the country and selling them as they were going off.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the individuals that we were meeting with, we didn't realize it at the time, was a Colombian national and a neo-Nazi, if they can imagine such a thing, and was trafficking in firearms.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The interesting part about that meeting, we were buying a kilo of cocaine with DEA.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And the interesting part about that meeting is they all were armed and they were showing their guns off to us in the middle of the restaurant.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I asked them where you got the guns and they'd been to the gun show.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And they'd bought guns at the gun show just for this meeting.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were coming there on.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, fortunately, because I don't want anybody to get the misconception, just about every other table in that restaurant had state troopers or ATF agents undercover sitting around.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were significantly outnumbered.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We basically occupied just about all the tables in the restaurant with backup agents.

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[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That is totally wild. What an image.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: What are the tricks for going undercover? You mentioned getting used to it, but I mean, obviously, you kind of have to walk the walk when it comes to seeming like you might be a person who is willing to buy drugs.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you get into that almost character or mode?

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It really isn't as difficult as you would imagine.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people are under the misconception that you have to have a lot of tattoos and long hair and earrings and face rings.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And certainly, some of the times those help pass along or help ingratiate yourself with the people you're hanging out with.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But I always try to deal with the higher level of criminal, the people who are actually not at the street level and going a little bit higher.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And they look just like you and me.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They actually dress well.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: They have money.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And these are the people who are controlling the transshipment and narcotics in and actually controlling and calling the shooters and shot colors and telling them where the violence is.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, really, it all has to do with your intellect and how well you talk or speak and keeping everything in order.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be able to keep in order.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: If it were acting, it would be 100% impromptu.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no script.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to remember what you said from the last time to the next.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to be able to refer it.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're constantly always going for the goal of obtaining enough evidence that somebody's going to go to prison for a long time.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious, in terms of doing cases with the ATF, are agents typically working independently or in squads?

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you're undercover, is that your case or are you working with, like, some kind of case agent?

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a great question because ATF operates completely differently than just about every other agency, with the exception of maybe DEA.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We actually, every agent is responsible for carrying his own caseload and working his own cases.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You're responsible for going out, finding your targets for investigation, investigating them.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You're responsible for applying the right assets necessary to perfect a criminal case.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you're responsible for carrying that case through the time of arrest and through prosecution, actually going to court.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So what happens is you are responsible for carrying your case.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I averaged about 21 investigations open at any given time.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that means that out of that 21, I had some that I was collecting intelligence on, some that I was investigating on, some that I was looking for informants on, some that I'd already made arrests, some that I was prosecuting, some I was getting ready to go to trial.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So kind of like an assembly line moving down, but it was a pretty significant caseload.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But everybody's an independent operator.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we do come together and work together.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: When you're going to do an arrest, you're going to do a buy-bust, you're going to do a buy or whatnot.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're fortunate enough to have a bigger office, you can actually team up and work with a partner and work your larger investigations with individuals.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But my cases, I predominantly worked as both the case agent and the undercover.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: We do have situations and investigations where individuals will actually be an asset of a case agent.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll just basically be doing the undercover for another agent.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I used to do some of that also.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If it was a DEA case, I would go do the undercover for them.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, there'd be a firearms nexus.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: If it was somebody else in the office that needed somebody to go do something, I would do the undercover for them.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, you're working for the case agent.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So one question I had for you is just in terms of, you mentioned earlier some national cases, some sort of high-profile cases.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the difference between being on the ground in a case like that as opposed to being in something a little more local or a little bit more lower profile?

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, a lot of it has to do with the scope and impact.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Your impact is significantly greater.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: With a local case, you're in effecting a crime that is occurring locally within that community.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Nationally, you don't know where you're going to end up.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I've worked investigations where they were Army soldiers, active-duty Army soldiers who were buying drugs on the Mexican border, bringing them up, repackaging them, having guys come out of the Chicago area, coming down as mules to take the drugs.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they would send guns and drugs up into the Chicago area.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I've worked cases where you had cartel members taking methamphetamine or the precursor chemicals for methamphetamine out to California, selling the precursor chemicals, taking some of the finished product back to Colorado.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Those national cases have a lot bigger impact.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They seem to be a lot bigger cases, but they affect a lot more.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And they actually address some of the bigger ills that are affecting multiple communities, not just your local community.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that the ATF often partners with local and even maybe state law enforcement.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But how do you work with, I guess, them?

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: When do you come into a case?

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have to be asked?

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then how do you also work?

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned the DEA a number of times with other federal law enforcement like the DEA, FBI, U.S. Marshals.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a lot of overlap?

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you determine, I guess, whose case is it?

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: What you do is you look at the jurisdiction, look at the crimes that were committed.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we did at ATF, it wasn't so much being in charge or taking a case.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It was more of who could put the bad guy in jail for the longest period of time.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was singularly the focus.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: If it was a state crime that was going to put the bad guy in jail for longer than I could on federal charges, then I'd work my tail off to make sure that I could be an asset to those state investigators.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Consequently, if it was a federal crime that I could put him in jail for a long period of time, I would encourage the state and locals to work with me to make it happen.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to be invited into anything.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We operate independently as long as there's a federal nexus to that investigation.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There has to be a reason for me to be there.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And ATF prides itself in working with state and local officers better than just about, well, better than any other agency out there.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And we do so not because simply it isn't about who takes the credit and it isn't about any grandstanding or who's in charge.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all about who's going to put the bad guy in jail for the longest period of time.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And our feeling is you just work with everybody you possibly can to achieve that goal because ultimately you never know what crimes that criminal is going to commit in the future.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And you never know what lives you're saving and what families you're protecting by putting those people in jail, especially violent criminals who use guns.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: One question I had for you is, you know, when you're talking about arrests or, you know, searches and seizures, how does the ATF handle those in a way to, you know, make sure that it's a safe situation when they're dealing with people who are obviously armed or dealing in guns in some way?

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things that I think people have to understand is that ATF has lost more agents in the line of duty than all other federal agencies combined with the exception of maybe the U.S. Marshall Service, which goes back into the 1800s during the wild west, like Matt Dillon, U.S. Marshall out of Dodge City.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He lived.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a great extent to separate the bad guy from his residents, from his firearms, from his vehicles and try to minimize.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So we do a lot of work to minimize and mitigate violence at the time of an arrest.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're very cautious to do so.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And by doing that, we believe that not only is the defendant going to survive, but the members of the community are going to be safer.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the agents are going to be a lot safer.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually had a chance to meet you, of course, a couple of weeks back in Franklin, Indiana.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember we got into a conversation where you told me about some of your experience helping out with murder investigations in northern Indiana.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just found what you said to be remarkable.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so can you share it with our audience?

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Hammond, Indiana was actually experienced an uptick in homicides.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Their average at the time was about three per hundred thousand or three per year.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: In the recent years prior to this occurring, they actually were at 11 per year.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was mid-February, early February, and they were already 23.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was not looking to be a good year.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a tremendous amount of investigators who did a spectacular job.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They were just overrun.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Their robbery homicide unit was combined.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So these guys were running from one investigation to another.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's very hard to keep up when that happens.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd met with the chief of police.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I met with the head of investigations, captain of investigations, guy named Bud Carney.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Great guy.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Great officers at Hammond.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were having breakfast and trying to strategize on how we could lend a hand or help them.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we kind of came up with was I was taking several of my best agents.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were going to pair and team them with homicide investigators.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were going to work shoulder to shoulder with them.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't work for us.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: If anything, we worked for them.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They had the primary charge of homicide.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Anything that we wrote would be substantive, a gun charge.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But the criteria was it had to be a firearms involved.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The perpetrator had to be unknown and non-domestic related.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had to be called out to the scene while the body was still at that location.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: At the time, Gary, Indiana, which is right next door.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, one side of the street is Hammond.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The other side is Gary, was the homicide capital with the most homicides per 100,000 than any other city in the nation.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The chief in Hammond was afraid that it was starting to leak over and that they were going to be the next homicide capital.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Their solve rate was in the 20s.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like 26% solve rate where the national average was 62% solve rate.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So what we did is we actually paired up with, teamed up with the homicide detectives and we started working the homicides.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And in a very quick, short order of time, about six to eight weeks, we were able to raise their homicide solve rate to 76%, about 14 points above the national average.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and kind of get a hand on it.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: When I sat down and talked to the chief who was just pleased as punch and very, very grateful and, and was giving us a lot of the accolades.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I had to point out that it was, it was a team effort.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: One, two is that all we did was provide resources to his department to let them get caught up.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then three is we were following the gun.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: All we did was look at the gun investigations, make sure that the gun was run through NIBIN, which is the national integrated ballistic identification network.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And make sure that we were tracing the firearm to find the first retail purchaser and then working and doing interviews.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: What we were able to do was simply raise that homicide solve rate because we found that the people who were committing these homicides were actually committing four or five, six or seven homicides.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And once we were able to get them in custody on one homicide, you had witnesses that were willing to come out of the, out of the woodwork knowing they wouldn't be back on the street and provide information on others.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we arrested Jim Smith for a homicide, we would find out that, well, he actually did four other homicides and we were able to close those.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So it acted as a multiplier to say, well, this guy was good for five homicides, not just one.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: This guy was good for seven homicides, not just one.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: This other guy over here was good for eight homicides, not just one.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And in doing so, that's how we were able to, to gain a, a, a statistic advantage above the national average.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's really remarkable and just amazing.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I know our audience would be disappointed if I didn't ask this.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Considering all the homicide cases you worked, are there any that stand out in your mind for whatever reason?

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple homicides.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: One is unsolved, is a cold case, unsolved homicide.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: The others are pretty remarkable.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: First was the, was a cold case homicide.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It was called the Livingston homicide.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: On a Saturday in Colorado Springs, he goes to the post office and it was a ATF us postal service.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Investigation and opens, uh, gets a package, goes to the trunk of his car.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And while his kids are playing in the front yard on a nice Saturday afternoon, his wife's out front.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He goes to open the box and it explodes and kills him, uh, severely, injures his wife and in front of his children.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, now we, we had some great suspects, uh, but we were unable to make an arrest on that case.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I still believe that it's, it's an open investigation, but it was a package bomb that was set to kill him or his wife.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And it all, it accomplished killing him, but it didn't, it almost accomplished killing her.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: The other one was, was an interesting case.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There was an individual who was shot in the head and that individual is killed.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we were able to do is look at, uh, there were no witnesses, no cameras, no information, just a dead body with a bullet in the brain.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So what we did is went down to the autopsy.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I sent an agent down.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We pulled the bullet out of his head and we started looking through the records.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And we saw where that individual was named as being present months earlier at a drive-by shooting of a nightclub.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And because the shooting had not hurt anybody, had actually gone into the building.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody was willing to give a witness, but he was, somebody was asked to provide information.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And he couldn't provide information.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The decedent along with several other individuals, the crime lab.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And at Hammond had done something significant.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They had actually gone out.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And even though there was no property damage and nobody injured, they'd pulled that bullet out of the brick at the location months earlier.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We go to the property room.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We find the bullet from many months earlier.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We take the bullet out of the brain.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We match the two and they're an identical match.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we go back to all the other people that were interviewed at the drive-by shooting of the nightclub.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And we said, hey, at that shooting, who pulled the gun and who shot out the window towards you guys?

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, like we said before, we didn't see anything.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we said, well, actually the same person who did that is who killed your friend.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And that changed everything.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And they gave us the name of the individual.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And we went and actually arrested the individual and found the murder weapon in his possession.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And from the time that that person was found dead to the time an arrest was made was a little over about seven hours.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were able to resolve that homicide just because some good foundational police work had been conducted by the crime lab of pulling that bullet out.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then being able to go in and re-interview people who were more forthcoming with the information based on the fact that it was their friend who was killed.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It really is interesting and worth noting how much good work that's done in law enforcement is actually the result of teamwork.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But with that said, when I look you up, you've won a lot of individual awards.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You've won like a Medal of Valor.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You've gotten awards for putting yourself in harm's way to complete investigations.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us about some of the things you did that got you those awards?

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's, it's.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I think if there was a few things, it would be that I continually went out and sought to find the most violent people in a community who were violent at that time, who were committing crimes.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't just individuals, but it was organizations.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So I focused on crews, robbery crews, home invasion crews, violent gangs.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so then I worked to infiltrate those, those organizations.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: By focusing on the violence, which is what we do in ATF, but by focusing on the violence and by focusing and targeting those individuals successfully, I think the impact was significantly greater.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, that's where most of those awards come from.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I did all the undercover for all my own cases, uh, with exceptional one.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a partner who did, did, did that, did that undercover as part of the investigation.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But, but, um, essentially it's just targeting the most violent individuals within a community and then trying to get them off the streets by infiltrating them.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, uh, taking them through federal district court, uh, was, was a lot of it.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: In true crime, we found that a lot of people, consumers and creators alike tend to focus on very salacious standout murders.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The murders that get a lot of media attention aren't always the, you know, oftentimes it's because they're unusual rather than because they're indicative of anything larger.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess my question for you is having investigated so many cases, so many violent crimes, so many murders, do you have any insights into what most murders typically look like as opposed to what's often shown on TV?

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, who typically, you know, what are they typically involved?

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a great question.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What, what happens is people try to outdo themselves when they're committing murder.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the murders are, people are just shot simple as that or stabbed.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that most of the time, uh, the murderer probably doesn't intend to kill them as much as they want to harm them.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, obviously that's not the case at all times.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, shooting somebody in the face is going to have a pretty good result, but a lot of people die from getting hit and shot in the leg or in the, you know, hitting an artery.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They bleed out or shooting them in the stomach and hitting another, like your, your lower, uh, abdominal order or things of that nature.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But ultimately it, it, it isn't that titillating.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I know people get involved in, and really, really kind of enjoy, you know, learning about these types of things, which, which is probably a human nature thing, but, but most of them are, are, are, are just, just straight up murdering.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: People who they have a beef with or feel threatened by, or don't want around anymore.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and what's, what's, what cannot be forgotten.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter how somebody is murdered.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the fact that somebody has chosen to take the most valuable thing a person can possess and that's their life.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've done so.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So every, you know, I've always looked at, you know, people talk about the murder rate is dropping and, and, and violent crime rate is dropping.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and my response has always been, well, that's unless it's your family member being murdered or your family member who's having a level of violence put onto them.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And one is too many.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think oftentimes, oftentimes the less titillating, the, the more mundane, if I could use that word doesn't grab the media attention.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And consequently, those cases seem to go cold, but it, but it affects the family in the exact same way.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It, it, it absolutely impacts family members and the community in the exact same way.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, it doesn't get the media hype or the media attention.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And consequently, it, it tends to go cold bastard, but it doesn't lessen the impact or, or the severity of that action on a community or family.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what they all focus on.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the, the, the bizarre, the macabre, the horrendous, but let's just say that.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And you go to run an errand at the seven 11 or, or the convenience store, the local convenience store, because your spouse is cooking spaghetti and you're out of olive oil.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I'll just run down to the convenience store to get some olive oil.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And you walk in and place being robbed.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And they see you walking through the door and shoot you in the head.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really messed up.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and I know that kind of, somebody is going to be chuckling, listening to this going.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, no kidding.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But the point I'm making is I find that just as bizarre and, and absurd macabre is, is anything else that somebody would be robbing a place.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And here you are going to get some olive oil and, and they just, without any remorse, without any forethought or willing to take another person's life is what, what, what is noteworthy.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Noteworthy.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are cases that definitely freak me out personally, you know, where someone can be just going about their business, going about their life and fall victim to either random gun violence or a random mass shooting.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And they just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we hear that phrase a lot in true crime, but, but those are truly instances where no one is engaged in particularly risky behavior.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, this happens and you can't, there's, there's little you can do, I think, in many instances to, to, I guess, deal with that.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of, you know, the Bureau as, as a whole, how, you know, what are some myths or misconceptions about the way it operates, what you guys do, things like that?

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're all grouped together and, and they were all myths, misconceptions and politically driven and motivated pretenses by gun rights groups.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And first is, is that all ATF agents hate guns.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Second myth is that ATF is in its existence to take people's guns away.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think the third one is, is that ATF will come in and take all of our guns from all law buying citizens and not mess with, with, with criminals.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's absolutely absurd.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a product.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably the only product in the world that is protected by its own constitutional amendment.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Most ATF agents are gun owners.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gun owners before being an ATF agent.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Most, most people hunt or, or, or compete in shooting.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And the agency is a hundred percent focused on violent crime.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: If, if you're committing a crime, a violent crime, you're, you're, you're subject to investigation.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not committing a crime, one, nobody cares.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Two is I couldn't do anything if I wanted to.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's estimated now there's over 400 million guns in the United States and it grows by millions every year, like millions and millions imported, millions and millions manufactured and sold.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, there's only like 360 million people in America.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So there are more guns than people.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And this, the biggest misconception is that we are going to, the government is going to decide to take people's guns away and everybody's going to come door to door and take your gun away.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's just absolutely is, is as silly as saying that Sasquatch is going to knock on your door and deliver your mail every day.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It is just not going to happen.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and then they, they resort to this nonsensical back in 1934, the Germans.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, come on, man, it's 2024.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just silliness.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's pure silliness.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But the problem is the silliness on itself is, is alone.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing, but where the, the, the unintended consequence of that type of nonsense is that you have an agency that is a hundred percent focused on violent crime.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Since 1972 till today, 52 years later, there are still only 2,500 agency.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So the agency has not increased in manpower in 52 years.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: All other agencies have doubled.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Some have tripled.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But look at the population in 1972.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Look what it is in 2024.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Two is there is no such thing as gun registration.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: ATF is prohibited by statute from collecting any gun information other than on microfiche.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And quite simply, if there are certain little things that could be done, which would not affect anybody's right or intrude on their gun rights in any way, shape, or form, that could solve a lot of crime really fast.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But they're not going to do them.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're not going to do them because of this inane fear of, if we do that, an ATF is going to come door to door.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little bit of a math problem.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually had somebody say, you know, argue with me that that just wasn't the case, that ATF was gearing up to come take everybody's guns away.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, okay, get your calculator.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: There's 2,500 agents and there's like 500 inspectors.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's just use 3,000 and divide 3,000 into 400 million.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So how long is it going to take?

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, you got to figure out with all the paperwork and everything, each agent could probably take in maybe 10 guns every two days.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's probably 25 guns a week.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So you do, let's go 3,000 times 25.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We can now divide that into 400 million.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it would take like 125 years, get all the guns off the street.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's if you don't produce or sell any guns.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, the math doesn't work on this.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, they're going to get the National Guard.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, of course.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're building a robot army.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, people are going to believe what they believe.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But those are the misconceptions is that we investigate and prosecute innocent people.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Not true.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That we are only concerned with taking people's guns.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Not true.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's 100% focused on violent crime.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: A follow-up question around that is that, you know, I mean, obviously, ATF, like any other federal law enforcement agency,

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: like any other law enforcement agency, period, I might argue, has had controversies, has had, you know, bad stuff happen.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Waco, right?

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, but what is it like that's a very specific concern that people have that the ATF is literally, you know,

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: getting ready to go around and take everyone's guns despite what you said.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It would be like a Santa Claus-esque undertaking in order to, like, make that all happen overnight.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Why are people buying this?

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Why are people thinking this?

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What happened was back in the 90s, early 90s, Wayne LaPierre with the NRA wanted to raise money for the NRA.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he came out with this false narrative of ATF's coming to get our guns.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to, you have to join the NRA.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to, we have to raise money for the NRA.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're going to lobby against any of this ever happening.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where it all started.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where it all came from.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And if anybody listening doubts what I'm saying, start Googling the NRA for what's happening now,

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because all that money that they raised to keep ATF from coming door to door and stealing their guns

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: was used for all kinds of things for NRA executives.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a grift, basically.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So in terms of, I guess, going to the gun violence issue, I mean, it's my perception.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And listen, I'm not a, I'm not an expert, but I think it's, I think it's your perception too, right, Kevin?

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just me.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that there is a gun violence problem in America right now.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we hear a lot about mass shootings in mass media.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We hear a lot about just gun violence in general.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess, what are, are your thoughts on that?

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it's being overblown by the media?

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it is a real issue?

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it, what are you, just generally speaking, gun violence, is this a serious problem in America right now?

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a serious problem in America.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It absolutely is a huge problem.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They're there.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the number one cause of death by juveniles, 19 years old and younger.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It is the number one with regards to suicide rates.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a huge problem.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a gun violence problem, suicides.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We have mass shootings, which are horrific and terrible.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've worked several of them, surreal events.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You had an attempted assassination of a presidential candidate, actually two in the past six months.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Gun violence in America is a giant problem.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And part of this is there's no silver bullet answer.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a problem which is extremely complicated.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to take a multifaceted, complicated type of approach.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But there is no silver bullet.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no one thing you can do or one thing that'll make all the difference in the world.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a lot of little things.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a smart country.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We're smart people.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We put people up in space and on the moon.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was back in the 60s.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we put rocket ships on Mars.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We can figure this problem out.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We just have to have the will to do so.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I will tell you that most people in the gun industry see it's a problem, too.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And they want things done to protect other communities.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: People who own guns aren't about violence.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: People who own guns love their communities and love this country just as much as everybody else.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And they want to protect themselves and protect their community from violent criminals or those who are set to harm others from being able to do so.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: They just want to be able to do that in a way that protects their rights.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And quite frankly, it can be done.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I totally hear you.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no silver bullet.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, most gun owners are not the problem here.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I would say we know a lot of gun owners.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: They're responsible.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious, though.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: What would be some starting points that, in your mind, to take steps to reduce some of the gun violence without encroaching on people's rights?

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think one of the first and most simple things that can be done is let's properly define what being a responsible gun owner means.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So what I mean by that is this.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody likes to say I'm a responsible gun owner.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a responsible gun owner.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But let's take a second and define it.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then let's all agree that this is what a responsible gun owner is.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: A responsible gun owner is somebody who keeps their handguns locked up to prevent those who are suffering a mental crisis or suffering anxiety or depression, keeping that gun away from children, having access, whether they're children or other people's children.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Being a responsible gun owner means that you safely store your firearm.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something as simple as that.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: If everybody who owned a handgun safely stored that handgun, it would make a huge difference.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what being a responsible gun owner is.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's some people who say, oh, no, I teach my kids how to do things.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I train my kids how to be around guns.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I tell them what to do.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I got to tell you, I've told my kids a lot to do.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they listen.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they don't.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Being a kid is saying, yeah, OK, whatever, old man.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to do what I want to do.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes being a kid means that when your parents are out of the house, you got free reign of the joint and you're going to do whatever you damn well please you want to do.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not being a responsible gun owner because I said so.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Come on.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: That's being naive.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Being responsible is locking your gun.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I understand why people don't lock their gun up.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And the counterargument quite simply is, well, if I lock my gun up, then if somebody comes to kick in my door or I have to use it, I can't get it fast enough.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's one gun lock out there that actually allows you to have that gun locked up and allows you to restrict access to that firearm and have readily access to it.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's the only gun lock that I know of.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, it is the best gun lock I've ever seen where you can keep a fully loaded magazine in the firearm and still being locked up and prevented from shooting.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get it on and off in about two or three seconds and still be ready to go.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So in the past, people have not used gun locks because they said, well, I have to keep the bullet separate from the gun just because the way the lock is.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to find a key and I can't find my car keys.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So now I got to go find a key, put it in the lock, open the lock, and I got to find my bullets and I got to put my bullets in.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's going to take too long.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'd rather take the chance of not keeping it locked up and having it when I need it as opposed to having it locked up when I need it.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's no longer the case.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The safe gun lock is a lock that will allow you to keep that gun safely stored, allow you to be a responsible gun owner and keep the gun fully loaded and keep it restricted from people who shouldn't be having it.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you did that, if every gun owner in America locked their gun up, it would make a huge difference.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what being a responsible gun owner is, is restricting the access.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And you go to www.safegunlock.com.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: S-A-F-E-G-U-N-L-O-C-K.com.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Or you go to bestgunlock.com and you can order it online.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's the crazy part is for anybody who doubts what I'm saying, states are actually moving to mandatory locking requirements.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So the state of Virginia right now will reimburse you up to $300 for gun locks purchased.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: The state of Louisiana will reimburse you for the gun lock.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Not a partial, a full reimbursement.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: All you have to do is turn your receipt in, fill out a form, and you get your money back.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like getting a free gun lock.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: These gun locks are the best on the marketplace.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: They're expensive, but then when you compare it to losing everything you own or having a loved one take that gun or that gun being stolen,

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it absolutely costs absolutely nothing, comparatively speaking.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like being a responsible driver.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: If I have a 10-year-old kid, I don't dangle the keys and say, here, go take the car for a spin.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I keep them out of their possession and pray that they can't reach the pedals because that doesn't mean that little sucker is going to try not to sneak out in the middle of the night.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you wouldn't want your friend who's having a mental crisis or is really intoxicated going anywhere near their car either.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Suicide right now is on the uptick.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There's an article that just came out yesterday.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're looking at a homicide investigation, and if you had a woman who by all means looked to commit suicide using a firearm, that's highly suspicious.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Women don't use guns to kill themselves predominantly.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying 100% of the time.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying predominantly.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's actually been a significant increase in women utilizing firearms to kill themselves.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you walk up on a homicide scene and a woman's been shot, and by all means it looks like a suicide,

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: there's certain things that you look for to see whether or not, or to be an indicator that it was actually a suicide,

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: as opposed to an accidental death or possibly a homicide.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But with this latest statistic out, it's kind of interesting that women are starting to use more and more guns.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a 40% increase, if I remember correctly.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That's awful.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where I'm curious.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This is something we do hear people say a lot.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of understand the reasoning, and I understand why people might feel this way.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm curious about your take on it.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just the idea that, well, criminals will always get guns, so nothing should be done about anything around gun ownership,

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: because there will always be criminals on the black market getting the guns.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, you've got to remember that every gun that's manufactured or imported in the United States goes through,

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: with the exception of ghost guns, goes through a first retail purchase of the fireman.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The definition of firearms trafficking is the movement of firearms from legal to illegal commerce.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And how does that firearm move from legal to illegal commerce?

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Either through straw purchasing, through theft.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But firearms have to be sold through a licensed dealer, and there's restrictions on who purchased them.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless, of course, they steal it from somebody who's already bought it, the first retail purchaser and whatnot.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why locking your guns up makes that big a difference.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Will criminals always get guns?

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course they will.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But listen, here's the funny part.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I lived in a country in which the possession of one bullet was a mandatory jail sentence for one year without trial.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: If you had a gun, it was even higher than that.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No trial.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You just go to jail.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They just take you to jail.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, they only feed you bread and water in jail.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Your responsibility is to arrange for somebody to come feed you.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But the crime rate in that city was through the roof.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason it was through the roof was they didn't use guns.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They had machetes.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And they had knives.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And you were just as likely to get shot or stabbed or hacked with a machete as you are in the United States of being shot.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They just didn't have access to the guns.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But they were still committing the crimes.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I also wanted to mention that in addition to all your other work, you actually found time to do a couple of novels.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us about those?

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote, my father and I wrote two novels.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They're actual investigations.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_01]: What I did was I changed the names of the participants only because the people in the novels are still in prison.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They're doing life in prison.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't want to deal with a bunch of lawsuits.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So, but one is called Rocky Mountain High.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Just look for Dan Thomason.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other one is called Straw Man.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's by Dan Thomason also.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Dan Thomason was my father.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I was actually working at ATF when I wrote the first one.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So I left my name off it.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was retired when we wrote the second one.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I went ahead and put my name on that one.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They're works of fiction, but they're actually true cases.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And with the names being changed.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming on our show, Stan.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're more than welcome.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You're more than welcome.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for putting together a podcast that is fact-based and extremely informative.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the first and only podcast I've done with anyone.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not about the hyperbole or about the sensationalism.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about actually filling the gap that local and regional newspapers used to fill

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: in covering crime that often gets overlooked and forgotten.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That means a lot.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And people should tune in tomorrow because we are also going to have Scott on to have a discussion

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: about some really, really interesting project he's been working on.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Something that could really revolutionize homicide investigation in this country and around the

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_02]: world.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It could make a real difference.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's going to tell us all about it tomorrow.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Tune into tomorrow's episode.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking to Scott again, this time about a new project he is working on that he believes

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_02]: could revolutionize crime solving and close a slew of cold cases.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks very much to Scott for taking the time to speak with us.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll link to the safe gun lock and Scott's novels in our show notes.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: authorities.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_00]: of messages.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_00]: wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is phenomenal.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health,

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for you.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_00]: interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_00]: these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_02]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_02]: talking to people whenever I want.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really terrific show.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always I'm like, oh, yeah, I

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_00]: remember when Jason said this.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: complicated issues.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_02]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, remember when Jason said this?

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think and you like us, you I think you should

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: give it a shot.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness,

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_00]: things like that.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: nice.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and empathy to it.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_00]: by true crime, I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can can be nice

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to listen to in a podcast.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's compassionate.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's affirming.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_02]: People.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: We're really we're fans of the show.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all just check it out.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Very easy to find.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.