The Cheat Sheet: Referees and Riots

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00] Hi, I'm Anya, and today we're going to be doing a cheat sheet that will see us going to many different states and covering many different cases. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and violence, as well as the sexual abuse of children.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02] And moments before we started recording, you said to me, Kevin, you said, I want to tell our friends, the dear listeners about premium stuff.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, I do. So this is an option for folks if you are interested. We are offering now Patreon subscriptions at the $5 a month level and Apple subscriptions at the $5 a month level, where you will be getting early episodes. So pretty much like kind of sometimes as we make them, you'll be getting them early. You'll be getting ad free listening experience.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00] And as we go forward, we're going to be expanding to offering some more exclusive content to those premium subscribers. Apple is new. We've had the Patreon for a while. It's a really fun community. We do two lives a month on Patreon that we're also likely going to be making accessible to the Apple subscribers as well soon.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02] But you have ideas for other...

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00] I have a lot of ideas on how we can do this. I think it's fun. It's a fun community. And Apple is there if you prefer that and find that more seamless than Patreon. So we're trying to expand options to meet people where they are.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02] And we'll talk more about that at the end of the show. But if you're one of these people saying, oh, they only do four episodes a week, that's not enough. It's good news.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. We're going to be expanding. But anyways, that's that. And now we're off to the cheese. So I'm doing a Texas case and an Indiana case, our beloved home base of Indiana. What states are you doing?

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02] I'm doing Iowa.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00] OK.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02] And Ohio.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01] All right.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02] Two great Midwestern states, Midland states, if you will.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01] Oh.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02] See, that's like a sneak preview of what we're talking about at the end of the show. Oh, my gosh. There you go.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Let's get to it.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02] Not a very interesting sneak preview. No one's going to be rubbing their chin and saying, hmm.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00] It's not like one of your cornhole antics.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02] We're talking about that later, too.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, wow. We're saving a lot. Yeah. Going to unload a lot on you guys at the end. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're Murder Sheet.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Referees and riots.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02] It's Anya has put on her diving cap.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02] She's giving me the thumbs up. So dive right in.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00] I haven't put on any such thing. So this is a case out of Indiana. And just, you know, for everyone, it's a pretty disturbing one. So I would just say be very aware of that as we're going into this first one because it involves sexual abuse of children. But I think it is important to talk about cases like this, even if it's depressing and horrible, because these predators exist out there.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00] And if we turn a blind eye to them, then we allow them to prey upon vulnerable children in the community. So we should not stick our heads in the sand. We should be confronting this evil firsthand and recognizing the people who confront this evil as part of their jobs. So this is a case of a man named Adrian S. Warren. He was from Williamsport, Indiana.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00] He was born March 15th, 1975. And he was doing all sorts of horrific things. I'm going to read from the probable cause affidavit. And we are going to discuss what happened here, how he got caught, and perhaps some things, one, what people can know about predators like these and how they're caught. So that perhaps if you see something, you can act upon it and put away one of these people.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00] Quote,

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00] The information obtained from the search warrants revealed that the IP address associated with the accounts transferring the child sex abuse material belonged to a Comcast account located on Monroe Street in Williamsport, Indiana.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00] Data received from Kik identified over 1,000 image and video files contained within the various Kik accounts associated with the Williamsport IP address, most of which were child sexual abuse material depicting acts of vaginal, anal, and oral intercourse involving infants, toddlers, and prepubescent females.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00] Some of these files were AI- I will describe some of the non-horrifying and graphic elements of it. The image or the video rather shows a heavyset white male. He's in a dark baseball cap, white lettering, dark t-shirt. The room's walls are dark, white and dark spotted. And he looks at the camera and says the date, November 24th, 2024.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00] And then other videos in the series depict that guy, that same male, and they identified this person as Adrian Warren. And there was also a November 22nd, 2024 video.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00] That account, the after dark 705 shared a video with another user and just horrifying things happening to infants and children. I'm not going to get into the specifics, but suffice to say the stuff of absolute nightmares and just completely evil abuse of babies, of toddlers, of children.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, this is what people, you know, this is what these child predators do, right? They get online and they're sharing videos with other child predators. And it's a whole ecosystem. It's a whole culture of trading these. In order to infiltrate it, you have to be sharing them. And, you know, there's that kind of side of it.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00] Also, this after dark 705 account was found to be in a number of group chats and chats with different, presumably other predators, talking about getting, you know, basically abusing this person's, one of their young female relatives, abusing a seven-year-old, abusing a neighbor, a child who was his neighbor at one point, saying, quote, it wasn't all that interesting.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00] She had a bad home life, gave her a place to hang out, took it slow. So he's talking about the abuse of a child, the sexual abuse of a child. He talked about, I don't, I mean, kind of briefly about trying to make it legal to, for adults to have sex with children. You know, I imagine that is a goal for many of these child sexual, you know, abusers.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00] And shared information about, you know, this situation with the neighbor. Said that was about 10 years ago. And talking about, oh, you know, I don't have any young female relatives around anymore. They're all older. So, yeah. So this guy was busted. And he was brought in.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00] And he actually, he's, you know, he's 50, I mean, he's 51 years old. He pled guilty and was sentenced on April 2nd, 2026. I mean, they caught him dead to rights, obviously. I mean, does that surprise you that he pled?

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02] No, absolutely not.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. So he pled to multiple felony charges, child exploitation, four counts of child exploitation, a level four felony, five counts of possession of child sex abuse material, a level five felony. In total, and this is great news. He got 60 years in the Indiana Department of Correction. Ten years of those are suspended to probation, but 50 years. And he is 50.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00] So one can only hope that this man will perish in prison before he has the chance to continue to victimize other children.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00] You know, I don't really have any sympathy for people like this at all. I mean, I don't, maybe that's a controversial view. I think, I would imagine a lot of people agree with me on some level. I just think that anyone who's doing stuff like this to children is just irredeemable. And I don't want them in society anymore. And I don't, I don't find that controversial. I think there's a lot of crimes that I really don't think makes you a monster. I really don't.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00] And maybe I would prefer for prisons to be more of a place of rehabilitation and healing and not, you know, not making people worse or being better criminals. I'd rather it be something that actually can be productive and help them rehabilitate to society and be safe people to be around and be not doing crimes. But I don't, with stuff like this, the proliferative, I mean, just the callousness and just disgustingness with which he speaks about children.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00] It's just, it's like, no, there's something, something deeply wrong here. It's just not, we don't need this. Now, one thing that is kind of interesting to some of you who follow the show, the affiant for this, and I'm assuming the lead detective for this, was actually none other than somebody that you've heard on, heard about on the show before. It's actually Detective David Vito from the Indiana State Police, who, of course, worked on the Kagan Klein case.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00] That was a child sexual abuse predator out of Peru, Indiana, who manipulated many, many young girls into passing on child sexual abuse materials to him. And also, Detective Vito worked on the Delphi murders case. So this is another instance of him, you know, working to protect children in Indiana.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00] And cases like this, I imagine, are very, very difficult for detectives to work. And I think people who are in the system, whether they're prosecutors or detectives, really deserve an immense amount of credit for working these cases and ensuring that these people go away for a long time. The Warren County prosecutor on this was also Bonnie J. Adams.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00] So I just think I like to see cases like this happen, not because I want these crimes to happen, but because I know these crimes do happen. And it's good to see people go away for decades on this. So that's what happened in Indiana. Now I think we can go down to Texas.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02] Take us to Texas, the Lone Star State.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00] We're going to go to Texas. We're going to go to Austin, Texas. And specifically, this is, of course, Austin is in Travis County, Texas. We're going to talk about a situation involving the district attorney down there, Jose Garza. And that's something we've covered in the past. I know we've had on, you know, we've covered the murder of Anita Byington. Talked to Anita's cousin, Christina. Talked to the Innocence Project of Texas. Kind of got different viewpoints on that case.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00] That's a case where, you know, what happened was, I mean, basically it's all these. Anita Byington was a beautiful young woman who was brutally murdered. Years later, the Travis County District Attorney's Office sort of said, well, we think the wrong guy was imprisoned over that. I mean, I would encourage people, if you're interested, go back and listen to those episodes. You're going to get all the details.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00] But ultimately, at the end of the day, I know Christina felt very, very just ill-used and betrayed by the district attorney's office. Because I think there was just a sense from her, what she told us was, you know, one minute you're saying this guy is guilty. But now you're saying he's not. And the Innocence Project is involved. And the DA's office is working with them. And it was announced to her in a way that was very, like, an afterthought. So there's a lot of hurt over that.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00] And I think DA Garza has gotten, you know, he has gotten criticized from, that I've seen from victims' families in certain situations. And so the other side of the criticism towards DA Garza that I've seen has been in his relationship with police officers in Austin and the law enforcement side of things. There was a previous cheat sheet where I did an episode.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, I probably could have done its own spinoff. But there was an awesome police officer named Christopher Taylor where he, you know, the Travis County DA's office actually got a conviction of him for shooting a gentleman named Dr. Maurice De Silva, who was having a mental health episode.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00] And what happened was the, you know, Officer Taylor was in an elevator with a number of other law enforcement personnel. And they go up and they immediately see Dr. De Silva with a knife. And this is kind of a split second choice. And Taylor shoots him. And that was over. So he got a conviction that was overruled by a higher court saying, like, they did not meet the standard that you would need for this.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00] And it's like, you know, cases like this are difficult, right? Because, you know, you're asking people to do a job that's very difficult and that also does require a lot of split second decisions. Then again, it's really important to hold police officers accountable so that they're not inflicting harm on the community that's unnecessary or unlawful.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00] You want to be looking at, I think what I look at when I see a case involving questions about an officer's conduct and whether or not it becomes a crime versus part of their job. I look at, are they following their training? Are they following the law? Those are the two big questions. If you're following the law, you know, that's good.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00] Training, I think that gets into, like, whether you could be, like, you know, negligent or, like, you know, what you're doing is technically not illegal, but it's so irresponsible and, like, crazy that, you know, you should know better. And you've been trained not to do that. Then I also think that is important. And I think that's, I mean, again, I think this stuff gets very heated. I think it gets unfortunately politicized.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00] I don't think that, I think everybody of all political stripes should want police officers who are safe, effective, and making lawful and well-trained and informed choices. Right?

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00] You know, I don't like that it's, like, one side's, oh, we're just going to do that. We're just going to back the cops. And one side's, like, we're never going to back the cops. It's just, like, why don't we just, like, let's just, let's just not, like, be some weird binary thinkers and let's actually just assess things on an individual basis. But, you know, I have seen these cases with the Travis County DA's office where I honestly felt that that Christopher Taylor case, I looked into it, you know, with some considerable depth, I felt.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00] And I don't understand why they brought those charges. I still don't. Like, and there may have been very good intentions or reasons for that, but frankly, it felt very thin to me.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00] And I just, I question it because obviously you don't want to be just basically Monday morning quarterback backing an officer who made a difficult decision in a split second over a safety concern and then basically kind of making an example out of them in order to kind of get political points. You don't even want the perception of doing that, even if that's not what you're trying to do.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00] And to me, I'm not saying that's what it was, but I am saying that it concerned me. You know, it just didn't seem. And again, I was I think I was adamant in that episode. The death of Dr. De Silva is an utter tragedy. He was a very accomplished man, seemed like a really nice guy. People loved him. He was an accomplished scientist. I mean, a brilliant person who struggled with mental health. You know, he doesn't deserve what happened to him. It's a tragedy that he was killed by Officer Taylor.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00] But sometimes things can be complicated and things can be in a situation where it's like, yeah, no one. No one wanted this outcome. But is it murder? Is it manslaughter? Or is our society failing people who have mental health crises to the extent that then basically the officers are called to come and clean it up? And then we get mad at them when somebody pulls a knife and someone ends up dead.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00] To me, it's like we're kind of forfeiting forfeiting our duty as a society to take care of people like Dr. De Silva and help them. Help them deal with whatever mental illness they're having or whatever issue or crisis they're going through. Help them deal with that and don't make it a legal matter. We can be proactive rather than reactive. But that's just my take. Like what's going on now is not about a death. It is about more of a an injury.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00] And it's kind of like it's just it to me, it's interesting because it seems to be indicating some kind of like level of distrust between the Travis County DA's office and law enforcement, which I mean, I'm just curious. What do you think about that when there is that kind of. Kind of this, I guess, divide between the prosecutors in a city and the police force, law enforcement community?

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02] Obviously, it's not a good sign. There's always or at least there's frequently some tension between the two groups because sometimes police officers feel that prosecutors aren't bringing charges in enough cases. And sometimes prosecutors feel that the detectives aren't doing as much work or doing as much investigation as they should. But so it's not unusual to see some tensions. But to this level is certainly disheartening.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And it doesn't you know, it's it's very unfortunate because ultimately it doesn't serve anybody. And it's it I think it leads to bad things, I think, you know, and you can see both sides of it in a way, because on the one hand, you can see instances where perhaps, you know, there is a law enforcement body that is in need of reform. And you might have a crusading DA come in and say, we're going to clean this up. And people may not like that.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, they may react poorly to it. That doesn't mean that DA is wrong. You also could see, I think, situations where it's like, you know, bad things happen and the DA feels they need a scapegoat or to kind of score political points. They go after weak cases against officers to kind of say, look, I'm I'm a reformer, you know, and I kind of leave it up to people. You know, what they think.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00] But so this goes back to May 31st, 2020. And people may remember. In, you know, there were that summer, a number of protests that occurred throughout the country over the murder of George Floyd. And.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00] There were instances where protests were very peaceful, well-ordered people kind of making their concerns heard. And then there were instances where those protests turned into straight up riots and got violent and led to a lot of, you know, injuries, property destruction, what have you.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00] So in Austin on May 29th, there were protesters around the Austin Police Department's 8th Street, 8th Street headquarters. And. So, you know, my understanding from just reading about this case bit is that those started out very peacefully and. Those protests continue, though, as they continued, perhaps things became more agitated.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00] Things became more violent and maybe more of went from a protest to a riot. But. So.

[00:22:47] So.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00] What. The officer at the heart of this is named Officer Chance Breches. And. What. What. What he's what he's looking at or what rather he's charged with is. He I think I think the date itself was. May 31st, 2020. He fires a non lethal round.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00] I think there were like or maybe not maybe not non lethal. Maybe the word is less lethal. And these are sort of beanbag munitions that he fires. These are department issued. And he fires them in response to some of this violence, according to him. And a woman who I guess identified as a street medic was hit and was injured and apparently sustained pretty severe injuries to her hand. And.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00] So, yeah, so he's charged with that. So the number of charges aggravated assault being kind of one of them. And. What his defense team is saying is like the munitions were defective. That was what caused the more severe injuries. He was acting according to his training. He was acting under supervision. He should not be penalized for this. And of course, I mean, and he is actually still with the Austin Police Department. He's not been fired.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00] But with the Travis County District Attorney's Office, they're saying it was a crime. It was aggravated assault. And. Now there's been claims that. This is politically motivated and not only that, but the district attorney. Basically, there are claims that the district attorney has hidden evidence in the case. So what. How do we analyze that? Because obviously in a case like this where it's so heated, you know, people are going to be making claims.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00] And I think it's important to look at it, you know. You know, with with some with some thoughtfulness. And so. I guess this is something where what the claim is from Brecht's defense team is that Jose Garza, the D.A., held negotiation with city leaders.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00] Basically talking about whether or not they could actually hold the city of Austin criminally liable for injuries to protesters instead of the individual officers. And. That prosecutors basically identified Austin itself as the alternate suspect, but never disclosed that because doing so would obviously undermine the case against Brecht's if you're saying actually it's the city of Austin's fault for.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know, maybe the faulty munitions or the faulty training or I don't know. But, you know, there was a hearing for this. And Judge Karen Sage was was hearing about hearing it in. So that was May 4th, 2026. And. What what she's held so far is that. Basically.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00] What the defense team was asking for was a court of inquiry. So that would have been like a criminal investigation into the D.A. himself and his team. So they said that the they did not have enough information to do that. But she also ruled that it's not clear to her at this point whether or not prosecutors actually did turn over this information that was favorable to Brecht's.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00] And that could hypothetically prompt her to dismiss the case. Does that make sense? That makes sense. Now. So what she's asking for now is like basically give me timelines on. What the flow of the evidence is over the years. I mean, it's been six years. Right. So it's a lot. And give me that information and I will look at that.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00] So, you know, the person who is representing Chance Brecht's is Doug O'Connell. He's saying that Garza broke the law here. And it sounds like the courts like we're not quite quite there. But I do want to know more about what the timeline is. And let's look at this carefully. And, you know, and also the judge also noted that, you know, even if the ammunition was defective.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00] You know, the officer could still face liability for firing it, you know.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00] Like it could be it could be defective and you shouldn't have fired it, you know. So that's one thing if the if if the if the prosecutors are on some level acknowledging that the city would be at fault somehow, the officer sounds like could still be at fault. Yeah. So this is just I do think, though, this is interesting that it's it's gotten very political. It's gotten very heated.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00] Without really knowing much more about the absolute circumstances of. You know, the situation. I hesitate to really sort of say, oh, it's unfair for Brecht's to be prosecuted, because obviously, like there can be a lot of factors in that. I will say, though, that there have been 19 Austin Police Department officers indicted for things like, you know, excessive force.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00] You know, often due to injuries to protesters. And of those, my understanding from from reading media reports is that 17 of those have been dismissed. That's not a very. Promising track record. There's also been kind of criticism over. And we talked about this in the Taylor case. There have been like situations where, you know, two police officers are pretty much doing the same thing.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00] One's offered a deal. And basically it's like, you know, charges dropped. And then the other one isn't. And it just to me, it seems kind of like a mess from the outside. I don't know. What do you think? Do you think you I mean, from what I've said, I don't want to just dismiss any attempts to reform police. And obviously there can be bad things police do during protests that aren't right.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, maybe require better training or maybe in some cases do require charges being filed or people being fired or what have you. But then it just it seems like this. There's been a lot of attempts to do stuff here. And it's like. If like 17 of these are getting thrown out, it's like, I don't know, it just it just doesn't really sit right with me.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02] Well, we have to keep an eye on it and see what comes out in the court hearings.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00] Mm hmm. I'll be curious. So now I think we're doing your cases.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02] Let's do my cases. So my first case is out of Iowa. And my source for this was an opinion from the Iowa Supreme Court. And I want to I find it interesting to look at murder cases, as we both know, is pretty rare for cases to be just thrown out entirely. A murder case and murder conviction to be thrown out.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02] So I think it's interesting and hopefully you think it's interesting to to look at instances where courts are asked to throw out verdicts and throw out trials and look at the reasons why and see what the judges came down on. And so with that in mind, I will tell you about the case of a man named James Wiggins.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think we need to go into all the nitty gritty of the actual crime, but I'll just give you the very, very basics. It was some kind of an altercation at a bar. He says it was self-defense that the person he ended up shooting pulled a gun on him. He testifies to that. The jury ultimately, I guess, didn't find him credible because they convicted him.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02] He got a pretty long sentence. So what his attorneys are saying now is when he got up to testify. The judge said in open court in front of the jury, you know, we have a policy in this court. I'm paraphrasing.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02] He said we have a policy in this court that when someone who is in custody testifies, we have an armed guard behind him. And, you know, he's going to be just three feet away from the jury box. So we need to have an armed guard there.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02] And what Mr. Wiggins is saying through his attorneys is that by doing that, by suddenly saying, hey, guys, we don't trust this guy being so close to you, that the state is basically putting its finger on the scale and saying, maybe you shouldn't believe this guy because personally we think he's dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, Anya.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if you read ahead in my notes to see what the ruling was, but I'm curious. What are your thoughts?

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00] That sounds pretty bad. I'm not going to lie. I mean, I'm sympathetic with the idea that, like, you do need to keep safety in a court. I mean, like, safety is a concern. Yes. Maybe, like, it could have been done in a more tactful way or in a way that didn't require the judge to be, like, making a big announcement.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02] It kind of does prejudice the jury when you do it that way.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think it's bad.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02] Especially when the whole case, to some extent, revolves around whether or not you think this man is credible.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And, like, you know, he might grab you guys. Like, that's not what they're saying. But, like, watch out. Like, he's coming at you. That concerns me. And I do feel like that does prejudice things. I mean.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02] I'll tell you, it was thrown out. Yeah. The court threw it out.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00] That doesn't surprise me.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02] And they said, we know it would have been different if, you know, this guy had made some threats. And there was a reason why we need to have guards just for this guy because of what he did. But.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00] Why not just get an extra guard and have it be there for everybody so it just doesn't look different? I mean, like, is that kind of choreography so hard? I don't know. Maybe, I mean, maybe there's overtime problems or whatever. But I think you got to kind of work around it.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02] And also just mentioning, oh, this guy's in custody. The listeners of this program are sophisticated enough to know that people on trial for serious crimes are, in fact, in custody. But some people who show up and get seated on juries may not realize that. And to those people, knowing that a person in custody, that might prejudice them. And that's one of the reasons why we don't have people on trial in front of juries wearing prison outfits.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00] Or like shackled, you know, I mean, it's it's I think you have to just be cautious. I'm a bit surprised that the judge made this kind of spiel. Now, here's the thing. Had had the scenario you outlined been like, oh, they had a deputy near him while he was testifying, but no one else. I'd be like. And that was it. And there was no statement made about it. But I'd be like, yeah, that is problematic. But they do have if they are concerned.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00] And if this guy is like a hothead or whatever, and that's the whole case, then maybe I'm a little bit more sympathetic with the state in that matter or with the court in that matter. It's like you do have to keep people safe. But making a whole big deal of like, yeah, we're gonna have a guard. Don't worry, guys. We're not going to let him come at you. I mean, like, again, he didn't say it quite that ridiculously. But, you know, I just I do think that violates the guy's rights.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02] There's a line in here, quote, the stationing of a uniformed officer next to a defendant as he testifies is the kind of government action that constitutes an unmistakable indication of the need to separate a defendant from the community at large. I agree with that. It sends a very clear message.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00] What do you think about just having a guy if like you're concerned about the defendant? Just have a guy like with every witness, though. And like he's really there for the one guy. But like just, you know, it doesn't look any different than that works.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02] It also works. Think about in the Delphi case, Richard Allen. There were guards in the courtroom and they were dressed very unobtrusively. They were dressed in suits and ties.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. I yes, I do remember that. And they you know, they it was it was a lot more chill. And, you know, I'm sure I'm sure sometimes, you know, like as we say, sophisticated people who know how trials work.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02] They know there's not just a bunch of suited men hanging out, you know, but it but, you know, they say, quote, security officers posted generally throughout the courtroom. And they're not. That they are there to prevent disruption from the gallery, to keep tensions from boiling over and to provide ordinary security. But a deputy who appeals appears behind the witness box only when the defendant takes the stand sheds those alternative explanations.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02] That is true. It just makes it very clear to one and all this guy who's about to testify and tell you the story upon which his life depends. And we don't trust him. We think he's dangerous. We think he might hurt you. I yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. I feel bad for the people involved to have to go through a trial again. But I find this troubling.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00] I do, too. It stinks when it it stinks when you have to redo it. And on some level, it's like, you know, I mean, like, did it make that much of a difference? Who knows? But it's it's not it's it's you can't necessarily measure that. And you have to, I think, just kind of be maybe assume that it is a problem. And you just don't want to violate people's rights, even if they're guilty. Yeah, it's frustrating because you're just like, yeah, I mean, it sounds like the jury didn't find him credible. It sounds like he very well may be guilty.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00] It's just that you have to do things in the right way. It's really incumbent on everyone to do things in the right way because we're talking about people's lives here. It's not a casual loss. You know, it's a loss of liberty. And that has to be done correctly.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, the government has the power to take away our liberty and incarcerate us and even execute us. That is a pretty awesome power. It is absolutely crucial that that power be operated openly and that it be operated in an above board way that is fair to everyone. And I'm not I don't feel this was fair to this man, Mr. Wiggins.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02] So I agree with this opinion that overturned his murder conviction. Even though I don't like the idea of overturning murder convictions, obviously, and none of us do.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00] Well said, Kevin.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02] What do you think?

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00] I concur.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you concur with my analysis.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_00] I do.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02] Now, you know, Anya, there's a lot of talk being bandied about about you and I having a cornhole, a cornhole showdown.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00] OK.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02] And. A nice listener, I think we owe her a message, even said we can do it at her home.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00] We're going to show up. We're not even going to tell her when we're coming. It's going to show up.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02] Because I think a lot of people are concerned that passions and the excitement would rise to such a fevered pitch that it might result in some sort of untoward incident. Especially among your fans.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, like the Anya people will ride against the Kevin people or something?

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. After I defeat you.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, I see. That's interesting.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02] And with that in mind, there is this case in Ohio, which is you like to remind me is the Buckeye State.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00] I do like to remind you of that every day when we wake up, I just remember the Buckeye State. Remember Ohio.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You're a very odd person in many respects. My source for this is News 5 Cleveland. And there was some sort of flag football game. And somebody was upset about some sort of call made by a referee. The guy that was upset was Timothy Rubel.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02] And so this guy tries to kill the referee by running him over with his car. Over a flag football game. The guy is alive, so he'll be okay. I certainly don't mean to make light of it.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02] But it's how stupid to potentially throw away your life or forever alter your life by being sent to prison over a dispute over a flag football game.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00] Like, was it one of the players or like, was it a child's league or what the heck happened here?

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02] That's unclear to me. I'll tell you the person who ran the guy down was 19 years old. And yeah.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00] So the 19 year old was the attempted murderer.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And the victim, man named Brian Williams, again, he's in critical condition. These are adult flag football games. A player became upset over a call. And you're getting more and more into sports. But I think.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, I was a jock in high school. I was a swimmer. I'm not like just getting into sports. I was the captain of the team.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02] You're really.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00] I'm getting into sports people care about.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, you're becoming a football head. I'm not becoming.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00] No, I'm not. What? Would you stop saying bizarre things for like two minutes? Would that be OK? No, I just I like IU football now. I'm loyal to that program. I salute them. And and that's it. It's not I'm not I'm not going nuts here.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02] Every morning you shake me awake. Say, Kevin, it's the Buckeye State. And you hop out of bed and you salute an IU flag.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00] Not does not happen. But like I I can't imagine. I actually used to referee soccer as a teenager. That was a terrifying job. Parents can be very mean. People get way too in this into this stuff. And it's like, yeah, I know I'm not that good of a referee. I'm trying my best. I'm really I'm a very awkward 16 year old like I it's one of those things, though, like I like I can't imagine even having seen some of that parental behavior up close where people

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00] do yell at you or they make mean comments or whatever. I'm not trying to excuse that. I don't think that's appropriate at all. And I think it teaches kids a pretty bad lesson. But I can understand like losing your temper and maybe saying something unkind. I don't understand losing your temper to the point where you want to kill somebody over something like that.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02] It's just a game.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00] It's a it's just a game.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02] It's a fun game. It's good to care about the game. But your life and your continued freedom is more important. And people should remember that.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00] I think I mean, the fact that he's 19, I'm not trying to make excuses, but obviously like, you know, pretty young. But I think at a certain point, you know, I think men in particular really need to like there's a lot of men with some pretty serious anger issues that are just not being dealt with by them or by those around them. And it's like you the best thing you can do for, I think, your son or, you know, a young

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00] man in your life is to, you know, if they have that kind of explosive temper or personality is helping them deal with that in a way that doesn't prompt them to totally wreck their lives over something so stupid.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02] So do you think it would be better for us to do cornhole in the fevered, high intensity atmosphere of a bagger's town? Or do you think there would be violence from your supporters and that we should instead do it at someone's private residence and maybe just record it and post it?

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00] I think the stereotyping of the Anya supporters is disgusting and should stop immediately. That's what I think. How dare you?

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02] I think your supporters, they'd all start getting sassy. They'd get sassy with each other. They'd see your performance and they would just fall apart into acrimony. That's my prediction.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00] I think you're besmirching an honorable group of people, an honorable group of concerned citizens. I think you're going too far and I think, you know, you're going to just turn everyone against you. I think some of the Kevin supporters will be disgusted by this. Anya's not sitting around disparaging the Kevin supporters. I tip my hat to them. You know, they can do what they want. They're adults. They can make their own choices.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02] How can you not tip your hat to the Kevin supporters? Because remember, I looked up the demographics and it said people who believe I'm going to win the cornhole game are right-thinking Americans of every race, creed, and color. That's the demographics. Yeah, you have to tip your hat to them.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00] And who are the Anya supporters? Well, let's not go into that. I think there's been some appalling statements made on today's murder sheet and I do apologize for all listeners who were offended. I don't know what's happening over here.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02] We are going to do this cornhole thing, right?

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, yeah. Somebody was like, come to my cornhole patch. And we said, sure. And we replied.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02] I did.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I was like, heck yeah.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02] OK.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_00] And now, you know, now this person is going to have to live in fear of us just showing up at their house with a bunch of beanbags. That's not what anyone wants to deal with. But unfortunately, that is what they signed up for.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00] So sorry to that person.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02] And if we do that, we'll record it and post it somewhere.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know if we'll record the whole thing.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02] Well, because you'd be embarrassed if people see how badly you do. I understand that. If you'd rather suppress it.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00] You're really setting yourself up for a fall.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02] You'd be like Nixon. And there'd be like an 18 and a half minute gap when it's your turn to throw the beanbags. So I understand that. I understand that. If I were in your position, I'd want to do the same thing.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00] You are out of control. You're besmirching me and my supporters. Totally not collegial at all. The state of you today on this episode.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_02] But I talked about potentially posting it somewhere. You said you wanted to talk a little bit more about premium stuff.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, I mean, I don't know. I kind of said most of it. I mean, I wouldn't listen. Like, I mean, it really helps us. We appreciate everyone who subscribes to the Patreon. It really kind of helps us a lot and helps support the show, keeps it going. So love you guys. I think some people, you know, they may not like Patreon. They might actually just make a lateral switch to Apple Podcasts. So I'm kind of announcing it for them, too. So they can kind of like make a choice on what they prefer. Patreon, the benefit is you can go to the lives in person.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00] I don't really know how we'd have people go to the lives on Apple, but you could still listen to them afterwards. And I guess the other thing is, you know, we're kind of in a position where we're trying to explore some options that we could give to subscribers exclusively.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02] Let me ask you this, Anya. If I'm one of our dear friends, the listeners, and there's something, oh, I'd like to see this. Do I just keep that to myself?

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, don't tell us. Or can I write here and let you know? You know, just keep that to you. It's my drum business. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, definitely. Stifle it. We get enough feedback. No, you can email us. That's so funny. You can email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, it's like just like what would be like because honestly, like it's very important to me to keep all effectively of the case coverage in front of the paywall so everyone can listen. So we'd be wanting to do other things behind it, but not deprive anyone of any coverage of any case. So that's kind of what the balance is. So we're looking for some creative ideas. We have some ourselves.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, just offering some cool features for people who might want to subscribe and might enjoy that. But without forcing everyone to do so, because, again, it's very, very important for, I feel like, us to keep our reporting and analysis as accessible as possible to everybody.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02] But speaking of our reporting and analysis, our book, Shadow of the Bridge, got an honorable mention from the Midland Authors Society. That's right. Which is an organization. Ring Lardner, one of my favorite writers, was involved with this organization back, you know, when he was actually alive. When he passed away.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_00] After he died. He didn't come back as a ghost.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, after he died, he cut off his ties to the organization.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00] Along with everything else, I guess. You love Ring Lardner. He's always talking about Ring Lardner.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02] Always talking about Ring Lardner. But, yeah, so we got the award and we drove up to Chicago.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00] Well, we got an honorable mention.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02] We got the honorable mention.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00] We didn't get the award. But we were very honored.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02] To be mentioned.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02] And there's a big dinner and you get free food if you're getting an honorable mention. And Adi said, sign me up.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_00] Get me in there.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02] And on the way up to Chicago the other day, we stopped at Delphi. That's always fun.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I love Delphi. We did swing by Delphi. That was fun. Always nice to see people there. Nice to see the town. And we, yeah, then we headed up to Chicago. I love Chicago. I think it's a wonderful city. We should spend more time there.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02] Basically, we drove up there. We went to this event and then we came home. So we didn't do anything fun other than this event.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_00] Well, the event was fun. It was fun. I humiliated myself at this event, by the way. I'm still thinking about this. This is one of those things we're going to think about for a long time. So I always, you know, like there's some wonderful podcasts out there. Immense, immensely wonderful. Podcasts I listen to, podcasts I enjoy. We try to be a good podcast that adds something to people's lives. But sometimes podcasting, I feel, kind of has a bad rep because you have bad actors, especially in the true crime space. And they kind of make us all sound like lunatics.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00] So, you know, you're like, oh, I have a podcast. And like, you know, what are these fancy authors think of us? But everyone was super nice. But I really, I was so embarrassed. I, we were talking with people and like, I want to show them, you know, we're intellectuals. You know, like.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_02] We were with, at our table, there was some very learned.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00] Very learned men and women.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02] Very brilliant people.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_00] Very kind people. But, you know, I'm like, you know, we're not, we're not just, you know, like, we're not just like saying, you know, like weird stuff all day. Like, we talk about some historical cases. So I'm trying to, trying to sound fancy to these people. And I say, well, we, we did, not long ago, we talked to a really wonderful author named C.W. Goodyear. And this is a, this is a president from Ohio, right? So it's a, it's a, it's a Midwestern thing.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_00] We talked to C.W. Goodyear, a wonderful author, about the assassination of Andrew Garfield.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02] And I said, no, Anya, that was James Garfield.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00] They got Spider-Man, folks.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00] I think I just turned bright red and then evaporated into dust at that point. The people across the table were like, Andrew, I was like, oh, no, he's okay. Sorry. He's fine. Oh, my gosh. I mean, loved him in silence. But yeah, that was, that was, that was not my finest hour of talking to people. This is what happened. Like, I talked to Kevin all day. I don't really talk to anybody. I talk at you guys. You're a captive audience. You're not talking back to me, you know?

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_00] And if I make a really egregious mistake about a well-regarded actor, I can just edit it out. But I'm, I get out there. I'm talking to people. I'm in Chicago. I just, I just forget how to talk. It's just, oh, man. But yeah. Yeah. So that will haunt my dreams forever. But other than that, it was great. Everyone was really nice. And we got to talk to some really cool authors.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_00] And it was really a little bit inspiring to me because it was something, first of all, having our work recognized by these people that I'm so impressed with meant a lot. And second of all, it was a situation where it's really nice to see. Sometimes I kind of feel like we're, like, living in kind of an increasingly post-literate society where everyone's just getting their information from, like, TikTok.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_00] And seeing people putting the effort into writing books and, you know, writing books for children, for adults, nonfiction fiction, putting work into their art and being celebrated for that was really inspiring and really nice to see. And I would just encourage everybody, you know, I think if you want to do something, I, so I used to read all, I used to read prolifically because I had a commute that would, I'd be on the train.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00] And going into New York City and then I'd be on the subway. And that was when I did a lot of my reading. And then I kind of stopped that for a while. I think, like, for me, though, getting back into reading has been one of the singular joys recently in my life because it just, it's so, I mean, I just feel myself becoming less scattered and more focused and more, you know, like, it just expands your mind in such a way. So if anyone's, like, kind of looking for one thing they can do, I think, to improve your life is just read more.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00] Like, find the time and do it. It's hard to find the time, I know. But I would just encourage people. If you're in my, I remember I was miserable not reading. And then I got back into it. And then I went to this thing and I was just like, oh, this is so nice to see. So that's just some advice that I found helpful.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02] And the last thing I'll say is this place, they had on the wall a head of an animal that was killed by Teddy Roosevelt.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_00] Do you remember that? Yeah. What was that? Like, kind of like an ox or something? Something like that. Ox. I don't know what he was doing. But, yeah, it was in the Cliff Dwellers Club, which was awesome.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_02] Very nice man told me that as we were leaving.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it was super nice. And just everyone was nice. And I was just, congratulations to all the winners and to all the honorees. And thanks to the judges. Again, that recognition meant the world to us. And I will say it was really cool to see, like, the sunset. Or, you know, like, we kind of were there in the evening. And, like, watching Lake Michigan turn different colors was really beautiful. So it was a really special evening. And we had a lot of fun. And we also had fun seeing.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, it was kind of nice to go to Delphi first because it was like, that's why we're here. Like, that's the story we wanted to tell. And those are the girls that we wanted to kind of elevate above all the noise of this case. And having people be there and say, yeah, the girl's story resonated with us. Even though we're not true crime people. Even though we didn't know everything about this case going into it. It just really, really touched me.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02] And I think we should end there before we wreck that nice ending. Yeah.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_00] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_00] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks for listening.