Cheat Sheet: Presumptions and Professors

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[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder as well as violence, including the murder of children and infants. So today on the murder sheet, we have one case out of our current state of Indiana.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00] This is for the cheat sheet.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And this is for the cheat sheet. And then we have two cases out of New York state, my home state, and then an additional one out of Colorado, which is a state I don't think I've ever been to before.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_00] So let's get into it. You were at Colorado briefly.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think a stopover or layover on a flight counts, but I'd love to go back. All right, let's get to it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Presumptions and Professors.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00] Well, we're going to start with a case out of Indiana that was recently featured on WTHR.com.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00] And the story was done by Bob Siegel, who some of you may recall, he did a lot of work on the Delphi case. I think we saw him in the courthouse pretty regularly.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02] Very, very nice man.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00] Very nice man. And I should say, this is a terrible story.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02] He did an excellent job digging into this too. It's awful. It's awful.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00] It's an awful story. There's a number of details that are not verified at this time. So we're not going to get into all of that. And those details also did not appear in Mr. Siegel's story. But I just want to say before we begin again, this is an awful story. And if you do watch the video version of it, that the video version of the story is Mr. Siegel presented it.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00] You see footage of some prosecutors and other people discussing it. And you can just see in their eyes how haunted they are by some of these details, which are not verified. But we can tell you the details that are verified. And I think there's certainly a lot here that prompts topics worth discussing.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02] I'll just say, I mean, this is not derogatorily meant, but prosecutors and law enforcement, that's work that can, you know, you've seen a lot of stuff potentially that's really bad. So I think when a case stands out as disturbing for people in that field, that says something.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00] So this case involves a child, a nine-year-old boy named Dustin Manis. Pardon me. Hayden. Hayden Manis. A nine-year-old boy named Hayden Manis. His father's name is Dustin. Dustin Manis had some drug problems. So his child, his son was taken away from him and the child was in the custody of a grandparent.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00] And at some point he seems to be off the drugs. And so over the objection of the grandparent, the child Hayden is returned to the father Dustin. And so this happens, I believe in 2019. The family then does not see Hayden or Dustin for years. And that is not their fault.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00] They try to reach out to Dustin and say, we'd love to have you over for dinner. You and Hayden over for dinner. Love to see Hayden. And Dustin evades these texts and evades these invitations. He says, oh, we're busy now, but we're doing great. Don't worry about us. And this goes on literally for years.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00] And so at some point there's a situation where the family realizes, you know, by God, we haven't seen Hayden since 2019. And apparently back in, I believe, September, a couple of either grandmothers or great grandmothers of the child running into each other at a grocery store. And they compare notes and they decide to contact authorities.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00] So the father is then contacted and he offers up a story where he says, well, here's what happened. Back in, I believe, 2021, CPS, the Child Protective Services came and they took my son Hayden away from me. And so that's why Hayden's no longer around. And of course, whenever a governmental agency does something like that, there are records caps that are pretty easy to check.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00] And so it is very easy to determine that his story of CPS taking his child is a complete lie. And so the obvious question is, where is Hayden Maness? And police start really investigating this. And the next big development is in December of 2024, last year.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00] Just a couple of months ago, Dustin is arrested on drug charges. He is bailed out after being in custody. And then he overdoses and he dies. So now the man at the center of the mystery of what happened to Hayden is deceased. And that makes it harder than ever to try to get answers.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00] There are stories going around that Hayden may have been subjected to some pretty extreme treatment in a house.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02] In child abuse. Yeah.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00] In a house that he lived in, a house that was shared with Dustin and his then girlfriend. The then girlfriend has moved out of state saying it's just a coincidence I'm moving out of state. I was always planning to do this. So that's the situation. The law enforcement, the prosecutors are saying, Obviously, the fact that Dustin Maness is now deceased makes it harder to get answers.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00] But we still want to get answers and figure out what happened. And so their investigation is proceeding. And they are actively interested in more information from anyone who might have such information.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, this is horrifying. Obviously, the fact that authorities are only hearing about this disappearance years after the fact means that that is going to be a difficult situation to overcome. I guess it's horrifying. I don't understand. I mean, I'll just be perfectly blunt here. Obviously, something very, very bad happened to this child.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02] I personally don't believe that Hayden is still alive. He's nine. He can't just go. He's not like, you know, he's not a teenager where you can, you know, run away to a city somewhere and start over. I mean, he's a child. You know, if he's not with the people he's supposed to be with, that's a really ominous bad sign.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that's a great point. Oftentimes, like adults can go missing and there'd be no crimes committed. But for a child to vanish, there's very few legitimate reasons for that that don't involve crime.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02] A child is helpless in this world. You know, this is not the era of like child runaways or, you know, like this is really, really bad. The fact that so many years have passed is really, really bad. The fact that, I mean, what blows my mind.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00] There's a lot that blows my mind.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02] It makes me so angry. What blows my mind is that you always see this. You always you see a child and the parents are oftentimes drug addicts. And there is a loving relative who is happy and willing to take care of the child's needs and raise them. You know, and God bless those relatives who step up in those situations.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02] And then you see one or both of the parents fight to get the child back into their custody so that they can then abuse, torture and sometimes kill said child. And it's like, you know what, if you want to wreck your lives with your bad decisions and drug addictions, fine. You know, I mean, again, I'm a recovering alcoholic. I get I get what addiction can do to you. But why do you want to bring a child into that?

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02] Why are you fighting to bring your child into that instead of just letting them go, which in that case is the loving thing to do for your kid? Because then at least their needs are getting taken care of. Is it a possession thing? Is it like a pride thing of no one's going to raise my kid except me, even though I can't even friggin take care of my own life? I don't even under. What is the psychology behind that? I just don't understand. Seems like Hayden was being well cared for by his grandparent. Things things worked out in that sense.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02] And he was ripped from that safe and loving environment and put back into a situation where. God knows what happens, but like he's missing now and it's bad. I get so angry.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00] I'm curious as to why there were no subsequent visits to the home to make sure that he that Hayden was safe. You know, subsequent visits by CPS. They put him in the home. I'm not sure why they didn't follow up. I don't know what kind of resources CPS has available to them here in Indiana, but I would have hoped that after putting a child into a home that was previously found to have been unsafe. I would have hoped that they would have checked in on the child.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02] I don't understand. I know that in Indiana, like there's been a lot of controversy around DCS Department of Child Services. There's been, you know, different situations where there's been lawsuits. And oftentimes, I mean, I tend to kind of view some of this as like I think people who work in child protection have a very difficult job. And you always hear about the outcomes where things didn't work out.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02] You hear about children being placed back into really dangerous environments where something horrible happens. You also hear about parents who actually may be really trying to get their lives back in order and maybe succeeding where they lose their kids and they can't get them back. And maybe that's not fair. That's kind of the opposite side of it. So I get that there's kind of there's an impossibility here. But I agree. Where was the follow up?

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02] It sounds like Dustin completed some sort of court ordered drug program, which is great. And if that's a condition for him getting his son back. OK, fine. You know, I think. But like you would think that there would be. Mandates around, OK, well, we're just going to make sure everything's proceeding as as as as it's supposed to.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02] And I don't know whether this fell through the cracks or what happened, but it's it's pretty it's pretty baffling because, you know, a visit. In person visits with a child would have at least prevented it. Like if the kid isn't there, then, you know, that's a earlier warning that something's very wrong. I don't understand. And hearing. Yeah. Hearing some of the. You know, it's horrible.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, this poor little boy deserved so much better. And. I feel terrible for his family that wanted him and was looking for him. And, you know, I don't I don't know what they're supposed to do. I mean, they tried to get him out of this situation. It didn't work. They don't have a right to him. They don't have the custody. It's just it's awful. It's just awful.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00] So if you have information about this case, about Hayden, you are been asked to reach out to the Delaware County Sheriff's Investigations Division. The number there is seven six five seven four seven seven eight eight one. And again, that's the Delaware County Sheriff's Investigations Division.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02] And just please check out Bob Siegel's original report on this. It's got a lot more detail than we went into. It's got the interviews with the families. It's very comprehensive. So that's a really great start. You know, obviously you're listening to this episode, but go check that out. Get even more details and, you know, just support a good local journalist. In our work on this podcast slash T-shirt business, we want to stay creative. We need to get focused. We have to get good sleep or we end up sounding completely ridiculous.

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[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02] So are we ready to move on to the next case, which unfortunately also includes violence against children? So my source for this was a wonderful listener who sent us a court document. Thank you to that listener. And the Denver Gazette. So we covered this case back in August.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00] What case is this?

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02] This is the case of Nicholas Mikkelbust. Michael Bust. I'm sorry if I'm saying you're wrong. I'm just going to say Mikkelbust and hope that's right. It's a 44-year-old man, a professor at Regis in Colorado. This is in Denver. And he was arrested for murdering his wife, Sioran Kim, and tampering with evidence.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02] What happened was on, I believe it was July 29th, he called of 2024. So July 29th of 2024, early in the morning, he calls 911, says he's found his wife. Blood is coming from her head. The baby is on the ground next to her, not breathing. Paramedics and police show up. Wife is fatally injured. And the baby daughter is dead.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02] And police immediately noticed some things that were wrong with his story. And we'll get into some of that evidence that came up recently. But the story has another disturbing wrinkle. On October 4th, 2021, the couple's first child, Bear Mikkelbust, who was only nine days old at the time, died of skull fractures. There were no charges leveled at the time.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02] So this is where I've gotten some new details. This was on December 4th, 2024. I'm sorry if I'm saying these names wrong. But Younghee Kim and Awan Kim, who are Sioran's parents, they filed a civil complaint and jury demand in the district court city and county of Denver.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02] And it goes into not only who their daughter was, but also elements of the crime that's being alleged to have been committed here. So I thought this had a really poignant opening where it kind of describes who Sioran Kim was. And so I'm going to read that quickly. Quote,

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02] It turns out that she had quite an interesting job, actually. She was a forensic accountant for none other than the Federal Bureau of Investigation. So she worked for the FBI in that sense. And actually, on August 28th, 2024, a director of the FBI, Christopher Wray, wrote a letter to her parents. This is what he wrote. Quote, For eight years, Sioran was a valuable and highly regarded forensic accountant in our Denver division, receiving numerous awards for outstanding work.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02] She demonstrated the fidelity, bravery and integrity that everyone at the Bureau hopes to achieve. I'm grateful for her dedicated service and her legacy will be cherished by all those who knew and worked with her. So it turns out that Kim was the first child of Korean immigrant parents. So she was first generation American and they described her as very driven to succeed. But she had this kind of almost magical artistic side to her personality on.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02] And they're they're saying now, of course, her husband hasn't been convicted yet, but they're saying she was murdered on July 29th, 2024. And so it's important to note that the baby Leslie, their daughter, she her death has not been she's not breathing at the scene. She died as well. Her death has not been charged at this point.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02] So police have only charged Nickelbust with his wife's murder. Nothing regarding the child at this point. And it sounds like they have not even sort of classified that as a homicide. So. But obviously, given the fact that what happened to Bear years earlier, it really does raise some some concerns. The lawsuit goes on to list general allegations.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02] And what they're saying is they're trying to sue Michael Bus to prevent him from profiting from her murder. So the general allegations include that when police arrived at the home on Syracuse Street in Denver, the defendant's hands were both bloody, bruised, swollen as if they'd been used to strike something.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02] They said that police photographed his hands, wrapped them up for testing, bagged them, and they even show a picture of him being taken kind of held onto by police. He's all disheveled. His hands are all wrapped up. And you can actually see on his shirt blood and you can see on his neck and chest. Bloody scratches. So it's faint, but you can see it in the image.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02] Um, they the lawsuit goes on to say that Sioran's body was found near a baby bassinet along a wall in the bedroom. She suffered multiple blunt injuries to her head and face. Now, her husband claims, well, she must have fallen from a stepstool. They note that in this bedroom, there's no stepstool. There's no ladder. There's no objects where it shows that she hit her head on that. And that's what caused it.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02] But they said that police and paramedics felt that the injuries were not consistent with a fall. They were, in fact, consistent with someone hitting her. Again, this man's hands are swollen, bloody, bruised. They also note that the baby, Leslie, was unresponsive on a bed. She was not breathing. And this is, again, their second child to die under unusual circumstances.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02] Paramedics and police also noted the defensive scratch marks on Micklebus's neck, chest. They're seeing that, too. The Denver office of the medical examiner ruled that Ciaran died of homicide by blunt force injuries to the head. And in addition to that, police also found bloody gloves in the dryer and on top of the dryer. And that's why he was charged with destroying or altering evidence, it sounds like.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02] So the lawyers for the plaintiffs in this for the wrongful death case are Gregory Bentley, Sean Dormer, Casey Harpering of Dormer Harpering. And that is what's happening with that. And in addition to that, just as another thing that kind of happened over the summer, the defense in this case has asked the judge to try to limit media coverage when possible. Maybe not go for the live stream, things like that. So that's what's going on here.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02] Obviously, some very disturbing allegations and evidence against Micklebus. He'll have his day in court where he can try to explain some of that, what happened there. But, you know, certainly her parents are coming in and saying that, you know, he's the one who killed her. There can be these situations where I think there's a criminal case, but then there's also a civil case. The famous one being, of course, O.J. Simpson.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02] He is acquitted of criminal charges, but then he loses the civil suit.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00] And there are different standards. Of proof required for a verdict in a criminal case as opposed to a civil case.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02] Although I would say in this case, it sounds like there's some pretty bad evidence, some bad facts for Micklebus. It seems like.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00] You may not know this, but if you don't, maybe you can speculate. I'm curious, why do you suppose the defense doesn't want there to be media coverage or the media coverage to be limited?

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I really don't know. And I was kind of fascinated by that because we've seen so many instances where you have defense attorneys who I might say are hungry for media attention because it can be good for their practice on a sort of purely pragmatic, self-centered approach. Or they feel like they can whip up the public to be, you know, in favor of their client.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02] And maybe that can help, you know, just kind of influence public opinion. Maybe it sways a jury pool. In this case, I think, I mean, what they basically said was it's going to take away from the solemnity of the proceedings. So they're saying we don't want a media circus. We want this to be a serious, thoughtful.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, what they're basically saying is it almost was like, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00] Well, why don't we move on to the first of two cases in New York, one of which is a lot more fun than the other.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02] Yours is more fun and that's one we're going to end on. Mine's not fun at all. It's awful. So this is, again, another listener recommendation. Thank you so much to the person who recommended that we look into this. This is the death of 43-year-old Robert Brooks at the Marcy Correctional Facility in the town of Marcy, New York. Marcy Correctional Facility is a men's medium security state prison in New York.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02] And it's part of the very long title of this is in Indiana. We have the Indiana Department of Correction or IDOC. In New York, it's the New York State Department of Corrections and Community Service or NYSDOCCS. So that's that's the system there. Brooks, again, was 43 and he was there because he was serving a 12 year sentence for a 2017 attack in which he stabbed his ex-girlfriend.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02] And for that, he got first degree assault. So he's that's why he was incarcerated at the time. So. A lot of what I'm going to talk about revolves around body cam footage. About 15 minute span was released. It comes from the body cameras of several different correctional officers. And I watched all of it. It again, about 15 minutes. It was very disturbing. Um. And. Well, we're going to talk about what what I saw.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02] Because on December 9th, 2024, an incident happens involving Brooks and multiple correctional officers at Marcy. And the next day, December 10th, he dies in Utica at Wynn Hospital. And a preliminary report found him to have died of asphyxia due to compression of the neck. Since then, this this month in February, his death was ruled a homicide. So. In the meantime, there's been a lot of media coverage of this.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02] And what's been uncovered is that Marcy Marcy Correctional Facility had a history of reports of prisoner abuse, including some of the same correctional officers involved in this incident. And it's a large group of people. It's like 13 correctional officers. And that's one thing that struck me about the body cam footage. It's not a situation where you see a small group of people or like one or two people doing something. There are so many people in and out of this room when this is going on.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02] And that's there's something a bit chilling about that, because you want to think that in a bad situation, someone might step in and say, OK, let's let's stop this. Let's do something differently. But you have people smiling. No one seems to be really intervening. Another note about the body cam footage, which was released on December 27th, 2024.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02] These were on standby mode, so they were not properly turned on. They were powered on, but they were not fully activated. What that means is that we can see what's happening visually, but there's no sound. We cannot hear what's going on here. We cannot hear what's said. We cannot hear anything. So it's all muted. So what when I saw when I watched this was it seems to be some sort of medical office.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02] Initially, there's, you know, body cam footage of someone walking outside. You see grass and the night sky going inside. There's a man, Mr. Brooks, an African-American man. He's in a green sort of prison looking jumpsuit. His hands are handcuffed behind his back and he is sitting on some sort of like medical table in this office. You can see a number of correctional officers around him. One of them is kind of has his hand on the back of Brooks's neck. And Brooks at this point seems to have a somewhat injured face from what I could see.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02] Now, when I'm looking at Brooks, I'm not seeing anything that indicates a lack of compliance. We can't hear what he's saying. But in terms of his actions, he's not fighting. He's not struggling. He's not really doing anything. And then one of the COs starts punching him. We don't know why that happened. But again, there's nothing I'm seeing visually that's like, oh, he's striking back because he's struggling. He's just he's sitting there.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02] So throughout this video, he becomes increasingly bloodied, bruised and limp. They hold him down at times. They pin his legs when they're pinning down his legs. He does kind of kick back a bit. But it's like he's being pushed down at that time. They pull his shirt up. They're holding him down. And at times, different COs just kind of start hitting him. It's like it's not clear why. They'll just start, you know, they'll punch him, punch him in his rear end, punch him in the face. It's awful.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02] And he's getting increasingly limp. They yank him up. He's got a bloodied nose. They're hauling him around very violently. They're kind of jerking him around. You can see that his lips are moving. He's talking. And then a guy just punches him in the face out of nowhere. So let's talk about that. You know. If he's if he's being verbally abusive or saying something wrong, that's not a reason to punch a man who's handcuffed. And it's like, you know what I mean?

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02] Like whatever provocations that are being made verbally don't matter in this situation. I mean, like, like I feel like I shouldn't even have to say that. But like, like it's like I don't like a certain point. Like it doesn't matter what the audio is or what he's saying. You can be saying, oh, I'm going to kill you. That that does not mean a professional correctional officer should have the right to punch you for for mouthing off or whatever the heck you're saying. That's just.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I don't know. It's probably just such a stupid banal point. I just I don't know. It's just like. People are talking about, well, you know, what was said or what, you know, what what this or that. It's like it almost I mean, is it crazy to say it doesn't matter?

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02] So there's a there's a kind of a couple of different angles and I'll go over some of the details. You have, you know, see one of them putting on gloves. He's talking. His head is kind of lolling around. He's being held upright. At one point, this is very disturbing. One of the CEOs grabs him by the collar, like hauls him up off of this table. They drag him over to a corner.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02] He's sagging against what looks like a wall. And they're kind of holding him up against there. And then the next cut, he's stripped down to his underwear on the table again. You have another you have another video, another I think another correctional officer. He you know, you see him again. There's a huge crowd. So some of the shots are like some of the like moments are almost blocked because there's people around him around Brooks.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02] You see him slide in the chair in the kind of table chair in the center, maybe a little deliberately. But like it's like it's like, OK, but like instead of just putting him back on, one of them hits him. They seem to be hitting him with a shoe, maybe his shoe that came off. That's my interpretation. One at one point starts like kind of pushes one of the CEOs pushes his foot into Brooks's stomach to kind of like push him back up on the bed. They hold him down again.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02] And again, some of these are the same incident incident just from different angles. And, you know. One of them at one point you see they're holding his neck and head and wiping his mouth, which is bleeding with either a cloth or paper towel. And then they punch him in the face and one grabs him by the neck and moves him around. Like, I mean, I don't know.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02] Like, that's that's something like I feel like every kid is told, like, don't grab people by the neck. That's dangerous. Right. Right. So to see people who are presumably have some training in how to handle people who may not be compliant. And grabbing someone by the neck that much and just kind of holding them, you know, hauling them around. Brooks is kind of a very thin man. So it's like they're just kind of like he's like very limp, almost like a rag doll. It's like it's awful.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02] It's just be warned if you watch this video. It's incredibly disturbing because you're watching a man. Be. I mean, you're watching a beating. You're watching a man who's about to die. And, yeah, that's kind of, you know, and, you know, caveat here. Obviously, we don't know what kind of incident preceded this. But I would argue that. It doesn't matter by the time.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02] We see this. Brooks is handcuffed. He's really not offering much, if any, physical resistance. And whatever happened beforehand, that doesn't give anyone a right to asphyxiate him to death or beat him. You know, there's there's a way of dealing with people who are noncompliant in prison, if that's even what happened. So even though I do want to note, we don't know everything that happened. And I'm certainly.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I'm not. I acknowledge that I just I feel like it's hard to believe that. The training that would go into being a correctional officer would be. Indicating that a lot of this stuff would be OK or safe to use on. An inmate who is handcuffed, unarmed and really not physically resisting. So what's happened is that New York Governor Kathy Hochul fired 13 officers and one nurse involved in this incident.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02] Again, it's a big group of people that makes it more disturbing. And even this this surprised me. So the New York State Correctional Officers and Police Benevolent Association came out and said that the video was, quote, a disgrace to their profession. So you have the union and they noted that they are legally obligated to defend members of their union. But they are distancing themselves from the action shown in the video. It kind of indicated that it was very callous and did not show much regard for suffering.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02] So the fact that the unions kind of.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that's telling.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02] That is very telling. Attorney General in New York, Letitia James, she has recused herself. But her office must represent state employees in this legal action. And Onondaga County District Attorney William J. Fitzpatrick has stepped in as sort of the special counsel. There's been calls for criminal charges against all or some of them of these of these officers and and the nurse.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02] I I don't know what's going to happen, but I just wanted to share what I saw in this video. And just, you know, it's it's certainly disturbing and it raises some questions because obviously, you know, people who are incarcerated. Are not sent there to be beaten to death. They're sent there to serve their terms. It's you know, it shouldn't this shouldn't have happened, you know, to Mr. Brooks. And it's it's horrible.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00] I completely agree. Should we move on to one more case out of New York?

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Two upstate New York cases today. Yes.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_00] This is a case. The one I'm doing is from KSL dot com. And this is a case that I think should make everybody feel better about themselves because you're about to find out that you are smarter than and know more about the law than a judge.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02] Whoa, salty.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00] So this judge in upstate New York, he's actually, I guess, a justice in the town of Petersburg, which my understanding is a small town not far from Albany. You ever been there?

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02] Have I ever been to Albany or Petersburg? Not to Petersburg. I've been to Albany because I grew up in New York. We had to go to Albany on a field trip. And, you know, yeah, that's, I guess, less said about that, the better.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00] So this judge, his name is Richard T. Snyder. And what happens is he gets called to jury duty. And that's when his problems began because he decides, well, I want to get out of jury duty. And maybe a lot of people have that impulse. Maybe sometimes you have good reasons to get out of jury duty. Maybe sometimes you don't. But it's very, it's a very important thing to serve on a jury. It's what makes our justice system run.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02] You would think a justice would know that.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. You would think a member of the legal profession, a judge, would realize, you know, by golly, juries are important. They help me run my court. Maybe I should be on a jury unless I have a really good reason. Well, as it turns out, he thought he did have a good reason.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00] And his reason was that he would be biased against anybody who's brought in as a defendant because he says, quote, I know that everybody that comes in front of me, I know they are guilty or they would not be in front of me.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02] No, no.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00] So he is saying there, if you are charged with a crime, you're obviously guilty. And do you want to talk about the presumption of innocence on you and why that's important?

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02] Well, in our legal system, the presumption of innocence is very important. We don't just assume, we're not supposed to just assume that someone is arrested and therefore they're guilty. We're supposed to assume that the burden lies upon the state to prove that they're guilty. So you come in innocent. When you're sitting there and you've not been convicted, you're constitutionally innocent. You get the benefit of the doubt when the jury is deliberating.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02] If there's two different explanations for something that are both reasonable and one makes you guilty and one makes you innocent, you're supposed to opt for the innocent one because of that burden. The burden lies on the state. So it's a good system because it means that you're not just going to be like you don't. I don't even know. Like it makes it less totalitarian and horrible.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's a great system because if you are found guilty, then the government has the right to take away your liberty and in some cases your life. That shouldn't be an easy thing to have happen.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you shouldn't have to go in and be like, no, no, no, guys, please don't. Like, you know, like it should be on the state to say, here is our case against you. Like we've reached that point where we can all be firmly convinced that you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00] And this also makes it so this system and this presumption of innocent makes it so that prosecutors are not going to file charges against someone unless they have enough evidence in their mind to really prove the charge against that high standard.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02] Which is good. I know.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00] Because if it's easy to convict people, then you can just haul in anybody and convict them. So it's very good to have a high standard of proof before someone is found guilty. And it's also very important for a judge to recognize this. And I also found it odd. He thinks, well, no, I'm too biased to serve as a juror, but I can be a judge. No.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02] No, no, you can't.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00] So, yes. So he he's not going to be a judge anymore.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Good. That's not the right calling for him. You know, I also it makes me a little concerned about the cases he oversaw, frankly. You know, that's that's really a bad attitude. And I'm sure there's a lot of defense attorneys who are sitting here listening to this that are like, no, I definitely have seen judges like that. But they're just more low key about it, which I don't know. Every judge, no judges like you can have really good judges who are great and take it really seriously. You can have terrible judges who should never have been on the bench.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02] I think more judges are probably on the decent side. I would I would imagine. But here here's the thing. One thing that kind of weirds me out is this guy wasn't even a lawyer, not a lawyer.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00] He was elected as a judge or elected as a justice, and he's agreed to never serve as a judge again.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02] I have a question. What's with the non lawyer judge? People might be like, wait, what? You can do that. You can just be a judge, justice or judge or whatever.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00] I guess in New York, there is that option.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02] We do things differently. Just go.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01] Just wing it.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00] I know, for instance, it's not comparable, but I know in Indiana, anybody can be a coroner. Yeah. If you run for coroner and you get enough votes, you're a coroner even if you have no medical experience. Maybe it's something similar for like justice of the peace or what have you in upstate New York.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's, you know, I mean, it's less of a population up there. It's less population density. So there may be kind of an element of like, we don't have a lot of lawyers. What are we going to do? But at the same time, you would hope that someone, even if that's the system, like let's not even comment on whether that's a good idea or not. You want someone to be open minded and to understand and respect how the legal system is supposed to work and not just come into it being like, well, you're in here.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00] Can I say that gentleman's name for me?

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02] Robert H. Timbeckian.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02] You're welcome. I think you should at least try, you know.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00] Robert H. Timbeckian.

[00:48:03] Yeah.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02] But I mean, he's right. And it's concerning. And I kind of would be, again, a little bit curious about what else went down in this guy's court. You know, if there, I mean, I feel like stuff like that could almost open it up where like if he saw, you know, oversaw some cases, then people might be like, well.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_00] Robert H. Timbeckian.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_00] There's that in the book. It's been a while.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_02] It's about the Delphi case, but the investigation into the Delphi murder.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_00] We have editors. So thank God.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Don't worry. Don't worry, guys. We unlike this show where we're the editors, we actually have professional editors in this in this capacity. And we're really, we are, you know, we're honored to tell the story. I think it's a really important story. I think it's a story that people need to hear.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02] And I think a book is a great way to get into a true crime case because it really lets you comprehensively discuss everything at a level of depth and detail that's not always in every medium. Like, you know, I feel like you can get a lot of richness out of a book that you don't with like a documentary. I mean, you certainly get a lot of richness out of this podcast. I'm not going to knock us, but it's just in a different format. And I think it'll be, I think it'll have some things that maybe people are like, whoa, I didn't know that before.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02] So I think it's going to be really good. So I'm excited for it. Well, I know it's going to be good. And we'd love for you to read it. And if you'd like, it would really help us out if you did preorder it and tell your friends to preorder it. And we've got links in our show notes to help you preorder it from a couple of different places, depending on which one you prefer.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02] And if you could just spread the word, like if you have friends who are into true crime and they like to read books or anything like that, just tell them, hey, get this book. And then hopefully they do.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_00] You've had like a year of practice with the T-shirt ads. So you're going to be able to do ads for the book flawlessly.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02] See, I always do the book ads. So you should do the next one. But no, but I can't let you do it because it'll just make it goofy.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00] I'm very serious. And I can deal with things with the proper level of seriousness and with the gravity they deserve.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02] Everyone listening is shaking their heads.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00] Well, no, no. I'm going to deal now with a very grave topic because I owe an apology. So we did an episode on the prosecution's response to the defense's motion to correct errors in the Delphi case. And so for some reason not clear to me now, in the middle of that episode, there were a couple of points where I decided it would be appropriate to talk about Taylor Swift's favorite candy. Do you remember this?

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02] Here's what I remember. I remember it was an episode where you were yelling. You swore at one point and you were talking about Taylor Allison Swift instead of me. And I was like, did we just like Freaky Friday or podcast roles? Like, I feel like that was my job. But anyways, go ahead.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_00] So her favorite candy is called Squashies. And there was a description of it that I read. It's like very sugary, very sweet, has texture like circus peanuts. I thought, oh, by God, this is for me. This is what I've been waiting for my entire life. I got to get some of these Squashies that taste sweet and have this texture. And I go online and I see Squashies flavored like rhubarb and custard. I go, ah! And I throw my phone across the room and then I go and I record the episode.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_00] And so on our Facebook group, one of our valued members, Lydia, said, Kevin Greenlee, Taylor Allison Swift does not like the rhubarb flavor. She likes the raspberry vanilla. You must issue a correction. Also, you need to eat the real flavor live on Patreon. So I apologize. Just seeing the word rhubarb terrified me.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_00] It gave me a bad vibe. And so I didn't read further.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02] You like blacked out after seeing the word rhubarb, which is I know you're thinking, what? But like that's something he does about vegetables or anything like any food that you deem as not what you want. You just throw out the whole dish. And now you've alienated Swift Nation as a result of that by lying about Taylor Swift's favorite candy.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_00] I wasn't lying. I think it's understandable if I see the word rhubarb and custard and candy in the same sentence to think, no, I'm done reading this. I don't need this in my life. I think that's a reasonable reaction. But Lydia asked for a clarification. And when Lydia says jump, I say how high?

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, we got it. We can't have that on the record of this rhubarb. It's a rhubarb route.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_00] Now Anya is going to talk about the shirts. But I'll say this, if we sell 20 shirts this week, I'll eat the rhubarb candy on Patreon.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01] Wow. Doing little stunts now. Yeah.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00] So now it's up to you because you have to do a spellbinding ad to sell 20 shirts in a week.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02] So I can torture you with this rhubarb that you don't like.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00] So some people have had to say it doesn't even taste like rhubarb. So maybe it's fine.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like I've had a rhubarb pie before that I liked. But I know you're very particular. Yes, I know. I'm not going to make you eat. Well, I mean, now you've agreed to it.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00] So I'll make you eat rhubarb if we sell 50 shirts.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_01] I thought you said 20. The goalposts are already moving swiftly. No pun intended.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00] So do the ad. And if we sell 75 shirts, I'll do this live on Patreon.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02] Guys, don't you want to see Kevin freak out and eat some rhubarb stuff? I mean, isn't that an advertisement enough? Do I have to gild this lily for you? Or can we all agree that that would be extremely funny and would give a lot of enjoyment to a lot of people? Maybe make some people's day. And Kevin would be very unhappy, but, you know, he'll get over it probably. One time I gave him a cannoli and he acted like I tried to kill him because he didn't like it.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02] So, I mean, he's got his strong opinions about food. And, you know, it can be fun to have some fun with that. And frankly, I need a laugh right now because it's been rough recently.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_00] It would make me feel good that 100 more people are walking around wearing this beautiful garment and getting all the positive attention that comes with it. And so just thinking of that would be gratifying enough.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_02] That's a way that, yeah. So it's a way to get positive attention to wear the Murder Sheet t-shirt. People say, what's that? And you can have a really life-changing conversation with them about our show. And that benefits everyone. Nice icebreaker, beautiful colors. They might admire just the design. And it's a very sturdy shirt. It's a very functional shirt. It's a shirt that I love. And it's just fun. And it makes you part of the Murder Sheet people.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_00] Do you think Abraham Lincoln would wear one of these shirts if he was alive today?

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you know he'd be listening. He was a lawyer. He was crazy. He was doing stuff. He was like just making stuff up about an almanac in a murder trial. Remember that one? Yeah. Like, oh, guys, hey, the almanac said that the moon wasn't out. And everyone was like, okay. And didn't that turn out not to be true?

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_00] So you're now in the midst of your ad for the t-shirts. You're calling Abraham Lincoln shady.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02] No, I love him. He's the best. Wasn't there one where he was like he had a murder trial and then like he won because he's like, guys, the guy just moved out of town. Like he wasn't dead. There was no murder. Like he was he was he was awesome. He was like like I love back then circuit court meant you'd literally like ride around from place to place going and doing these trials. And I think he he's my favorite president for sure. So I think he would totally totally be a murder sheet person if I had to guess.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02] I wonder what presents wouldn't be. Probably all the bad ones. But anyways, let's go to you and you can say something else now. You look like you want to say something.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00] Do you think like Millard Fillmore?

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. I don't know much about Millard Fillmore. Here's what I can say to listeners. All the presidents that you don't like would not be murder sheet people. But all the presidents you do like totally would. That's how I'm being apolitical and kind of down the middle right now. Leave it up to their imagination.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I wonder now. Everybody's always interested in speculative histories. And what ifs?

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_02] No. What if? No, no. I don't. What is what is I'm scared?

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00] What if when William Henry Harrison was giving his inaugural dress, he had been wearing like a murder sheet people T-shirt under his garments?

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_02] OK.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe he wouldn't have gotten sick. Maybe he would have lived.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_02] OK.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_00] And he died like 31 days into his administration.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_02] That's actually really apt. Thank you.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00] And you were like.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02] I didn't know what you were going to do. I thought those things were going to get controversial. William Henry Harrison. He was, of course, old typical new. Right. He was typical new, which, of course, is in Indiana. So he actually would have been. He might have. A lot of our listeners are in Indiana. So he might have been in the mix there. So I guess we're old timey people in that situation. But somehow podcasts exist.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00] And then I should also mention that we're talking about, you know, some of the celebrated men of the past who could have worn these T-shirts. What about the stylish Dolly Madison? I can see her walking around in a murder sheet T-shirt.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02] Do you think she would have ditched the portrait of George Washington when the British were burning the White House and just grabbed her murder sheet merch instead?

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01] And then a lot of history would have been lost as a result of our actions.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00] What if, hear me out, she's in the White House. The British are coming. What if she had like one of those T-shirt guns? Oh. And just fired out murder sheet T-shirts at the British soldiers. They'd say, wait a minute. What are we doing?

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02] What are we doing?

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_00] We could be listening to a podcast. Yeah.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02] Let's hop in our ships, head back. We don't even have to hit New Orleans. We can just get out of here, tune into some podcasts on the way back. It's a great thing for your commute. I love that. World peace. Good for everyone. Everyone's happy.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_01] What an insane, what an insane non sequitur we did.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00] Well, remember, I don't want people to buy shirts this week. So that's why I've taken it down this road. I haven't even told people where they can get them. And I don't think we're going to sell 500 shirts this week. So I have nothing to worry about.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_01] MurderSheetShop.com. Get on it, people.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_00] Here's the button.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01] Let's make this happen.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_02] VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them,

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_02] and they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this, like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and it kind of makes it possible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00] Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEAT to receive 15% off. And if you're new to VIA, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEAT at checkout.

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_00] Spell the code.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_02] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet, because then it lets them know that our ads are effective, and it really helps us out.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quint's, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They are, they give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_00] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_02] I think I have, yeah.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_00] And deservedly so.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_02] Also, like, I'm one of those people, my skin is very, like, you know, like, I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy. Like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just, like, very delicate and soft. And make, they're, wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a,

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02] you're the guy who, like, wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_00] I do wash my clothes.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_02] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean,

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_00] you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_02] But you don't really, I longer them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_02] There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash Msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince.com slash Msheet. That's Quince.com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_00] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_00] We love our sponsors.

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_02] and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement, and you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_02] So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement, compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns, tier one compensation provided, investing involved risk, Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor, you important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. and then you can start saving and invest

[01:05:55] and you can start saving and invest So if you want to get rid of the Acorns, then you can start saving and keep