Dapper Rogues and Jazz Age Romps: A Conversation with Author Dean Jobb on Jewel Thief Arthur Barry

[00:00:00] If you're like me, you get a little bummed out after the holidays. But there's no reason not to treat yourself and your loved ones a little bit all year round. And the good news is that Murder Sheet listeners can embrace the finer things without breaking the bank. All thanks to our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

[00:00:15] Quince is a game changer when it comes to everyday luxury. Their pieces are high value and accessibly priced. Take their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at $50. They've also got Italian leather handbags, washable silk shirts, and European linen sheet sets. Those are the sorts of things that make life just a little bit more luxurious.

[00:00:40] And remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're supporting us and allowing us to do this work.

[00:00:45] I love my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I got the black v-neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater. They're so soft and comfortable. I wear them all the time and I love the way I look in them. They're the perfect thing for a chilly winter's day.

[00:01:00] All Quince items are 50 to 80% less costly than those of their competitors. So you know you're getting an amazing deal.

[00:01:08] Plus, we love Quince's commitment to ethics. They only partner with factories that use safe and responsible manufacturing practices. They maintain low cost by cutting out the middleman and passing the savings on to all of us.

[00:01:23] Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com slash msheet for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[00:01:41] Quince.com slash msheet.

[00:01:45] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of a child.

[00:01:50] Jewel thieves have shockingly great public relations. There's something our culture just loves about the idea of a dashing miscreant using his or her wits to abscond into the night with a millionaire's glittering trinkets.

[00:02:04] Perhaps that's not too surprising. The hypothetical scenario I just described is non-violent after all. No one gets killed. No one gets hurt.

[00:02:12] Somebody might get traumatized in the process, but then again, if the purloiner is a charming enough conversationalist, maybe not.

[00:02:18] Stealing a wealthy person's jewelry doesn't deprive the public of access to culturally important works like art heists often do.

[00:02:26] It's certainly not a victimless crime, but the victims are losing out on insured gems that they don't require to survive or thrive.

[00:02:34] As far as non-fiction and fictional crime stories go, that's perhaps the closest thing we have to good, clean fun.

[00:02:41] I'm certainly not condoning thievery, of course.

[00:02:44] I'm not proposing we should all fit ourselves in tuxedos and gowns that have safe-breaking tools sewn into the seams.

[00:02:50] What I am saying is that it makes sense why we have collectively sort of decided that this kind of crime we can shrug at, especially in times of vast wealth disparity.

[00:02:59] But if you remove any of the prerequisites, make the victims everyday people, make the theft physically violent, then you have a different story.

[00:03:07] In the Jazz Age, Arthur Barry was the living embodiment of the dapper jewel thief.

[00:03:13] He attended fancy parties and made off with all kinds of expensive jewelry.

[00:03:17] He charmed his victims and the press.

[00:03:21] He confounded and frustrated detectives and insurance investigators.

[00:03:26] Author Dean Jobes spent quite a lot of time researching Barry's rise and fall.

[00:03:31] He recently came out with a book, A Gentleman and a Thief, The Daring Jewel Heist of a Jazz Age Rogue.

[00:03:38] It's a really good book about a fascinating figure out of a bygone era.

[00:03:43] In this episode, we'll interview Dean about Barry and his exploits.

[00:03:47] We'll also talk about one murder that Barry was accused of early on in his career,

[00:03:51] and whether or not that was actually borne out by the evidence,

[00:03:54] as well as his connection to the infamous abduction and murder of 20-month-old Charles Augustus Lindbergh Jr.,

[00:04:00] which largely stemmed out of the speculation of the tabloid press.

[00:04:04] Lastly, we talked to Dean about another one of his books, about a chilling serial killer, Dr. Thomas Neal Cream.

[00:04:12] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:15] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:04:17] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:19] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:04:25] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:27] And this is Dapper Rogues and Jazz Age Romps, a conversation with author Dean Jobe on Jewel Thief, Arthur Barry.

[00:05:20] All right. So tell us a little bit about your professional background, Dean.

[00:05:24] How did you get started writing nonfiction?

[00:05:28] Well, I was a journalist for a long time on a daily newspaper in Halifax, Nova Scotia, the province in Canada where I live.

[00:05:36] Early on, I was sent to cover the courts.

[00:05:38] So I didn't have a background in law.

[00:05:41] My background was history, and all of my academic studies in university had been revolved around history.

[00:05:48] So the two kind of came together.

[00:05:50] I was covering and learning about contemporary trials, but that led to an interest in older cases.

[00:05:57] So I started rooting around in old cases within my province of Nova Scotia, and it bloomed from there.

[00:06:04] So this is 35-plus years ago.

[00:06:07] So I'd like to say that if true crime is a thing now, I at least got in on things early.

[00:06:13] But true crime, of course, has always been interest.

[00:06:17] As I research old cases 100, 150 years ago, I mean, crime stories dominated the media.

[00:06:25] So it's a wave that seems higher now, but it's always been with us.

[00:06:32] Absolutely.

[00:06:32] Absolutely.

[00:06:33] And from the book we're going to talk about today, A Gentleman and a Thief, as well as The Case of the Murderous Dr. Cream and Empire of Deception, it seems like, as you said, you've had this interest in history and older crimes.

[00:06:47] And I'm just curious, when did that start?

[00:06:50] Have you always had that sort of interest in crime dating back to childhood, or is that something that you sort of got through your studies in history?

[00:06:59] No, it was really from working, covering the courts, covering trials, major cases as a journalist.

[00:07:07] But yes, academically, it was my background in history.

[00:07:11] So the two kind of came together.

[00:07:13] And I sometimes, a lot of times, my books are shelved as biography or history.

[00:07:20] And I think rightly, as well as true crime, I find true crime such a wonderful vehicle for storytelling,

[00:07:27] because the drama is baked in.

[00:07:30] You know, there's crimes to be solved, mysteries.

[00:07:33] Often there's manhunts.

[00:07:35] There's the drama of a trial eventually, and the cliffhangers of what will the outcome be.

[00:07:43] So it's a good way to open a window on history.

[00:07:47] And that's a window I like to take a deep look through.

[00:07:52] I don't want the historical context to drown out the drama or the story or the crime.

[00:07:59] But I think it's important to root a crime in its time and place.

[00:08:04] So I do a lot of what an historian does.

[00:08:07] I do find I'm drawn to crime and policing, detection, forensics, and the law at other periods,

[00:08:16] which itself can be instructive.

[00:08:18] How was crime and punishment dealt with in the past?

[00:08:22] What's that tell us about today?

[00:08:24] How did people live in the past?

[00:08:26] There's no better way to understand what life was really like, I think, than a court case or a major crime.

[00:08:34] Because everyone's sort of caught in a photo flash.

[00:08:38] They're caught doing whatever they're doing, good or bad.

[00:08:41] People have to talk about events.

[00:08:44] They have to confront things for the sake of justice being done that they wouldn't normally do.

[00:08:49] So it can be a very instructive look at history.

[00:08:54] I wish I could automate all my New Year's resolutions,

[00:08:57] so I wouldn't have to muster the willpower to go on a walk for exercise.

[00:09:00] Or if I could automatically kick myself off my phone and launch a Margaret Millar book into my hands instead,

[00:09:06] that would be awesome.

[00:09:08] Somewhat scary, but super helpful.

[00:09:10] But you can automate some things like financial goals.

[00:09:13] That's where the investing app Acorns comes in.

[00:09:16] If you're like us, you'd like to save more money and improve your personal finances for the new year.

[00:09:22] Acorns can be your secret weapon in a world where it sometimes feels impossible to get ahead.

[00:09:27] We're so grateful that today's episode is sponsored by Acorns.

[00:09:31] Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you,

[00:09:37] your kids, and your retirement.

[00:09:38] You don't need to be an expert.

[00:09:40] Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals.

[00:09:45] You don't need to be rich.

[00:09:46] Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now.

[00:09:49] You can start with $5 or even just your spare change.

[00:09:52] Take more control of your financial future now.

[00:09:56] Set up your Acorns account and start investing in just five minutes.

[00:10:01] Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money on track.

[00:10:05] Basically, Acorns does the hard part so you can just give your money a chance to grow.

[00:10:10] At the end of the day, we run a small business so we know firsthand how hard it can be to figure out money stuff.

[00:10:16] Plus, we're not very financially minded.

[00:10:18] I'm a history major.

[00:10:19] Kevin is an English major.

[00:10:21] We're not savvy with finances.

[00:10:23] An app like Acorns is a game changer because it allows you to automate so much of this without having to actively think about it all the time.

[00:10:29] Head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today.

[00:10:37] Paid non-client endorsement.

[00:10:38] Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[00:10:41] Tier 1 compensation provided.

[00:10:43] Investing involves risk.

[00:10:44] Acorns Advisors, LLC, and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[00:10:47] View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[00:10:51] Get off 2025 to the perfect start.

[00:10:55] It's time to refresh and reach new heights with Vaya.

[00:10:58] Our wonderful sponsor, Vaya, is a premier hemp company that makes award-winning THC and THC-free gummies and vapes.

[00:11:06] They're a veritable Swiss army knife of wellness featuring topicals, drops, and even more products crafted to elicit a specific mood or experience.

[00:11:15] We support our sponsors.

[00:11:17] You're supporting us.

[00:11:18] So if you're over 21, treat yourself to 15% off.

[00:11:22] And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice with our exclusive code, msheet, at vayahemp.com.

[00:11:31] That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P dot com.

[00:11:37] There's a reason Vaya has over half a million happy customers.

[00:11:40] Improve your sleep, boost your focus, or just have some fun.

[00:11:44] They've got something for everyone.

[00:11:46] Plus, if THC isn't for you, that's okay.

[00:11:50] Vaya also has terrific CBD products.

[00:11:52] My favorite of those is Zen, which is CBN and CBD.

[00:11:56] It doesn't get you high.

[00:11:57] It just really helps me get to sleep after a stressful day of podcasting and selling t-shirts.

[00:12:02] Vaya legally ships to nearly all states in the U.S.

[00:12:05] Vaya uses compounds found in hemp along with active plant extracts, all from American farms.

[00:12:12] Give them a try.

[00:12:14] If you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off.

[00:12:20] And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice.

[00:12:24] That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P dot com and use code msheet at checkout.

[00:12:30] After you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them.

[00:12:32] Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:12:35] This year, enhance your every day with Vaya.

[00:12:38] So for A Gentleman and a Thief, the daring jewel heist of a jazz age rogue,

[00:12:44] how did you decide to write this book to cover this case, to sort of delve into this period?

[00:12:52] Well, I love the jazz age in the 20s.

[00:12:55] And again, I'm looking for stories.

[00:12:59] I'm looking for the context, the historical context, the time and place that inform and

[00:13:04] create the structure of the story.

[00:13:05] But I'm also looking for stories that are products of that time and place.

[00:13:10] And the story of this jewel thief, Arthur Barry, who I'd never heard of.

[00:13:14] I just stumbled across a reference to him doing a Google search.

[00:13:18] And I thought, what a great story.

[00:13:22] But for a really good book, I think it needs to be more than a good story.

[00:13:26] It has to have legs.

[00:13:27] It has to have sort of multiple entry points.

[00:13:31] And in this case, his story so perfectly reflected the times.

[00:13:37] So he's a high-flying jewel thief.

[00:13:39] He's hobnobbing with the elite of New York, going crashing parties in a tux, passing himself

[00:13:46] off as some wealthy invited guest when all he's really trying to do is sneak upstairs,

[00:13:52] case the upstairs, figure out where the jewels will be when he comes back later through an

[00:13:57] open window and steals what he can.

[00:14:00] He's doing all this thievery.

[00:14:03] And he steals something on the order of today, in today's terms, $60 million worth of jewelry

[00:14:09] over seven years in the 1920s.

[00:14:13] He's doing this.

[00:14:14] He's only getting about 10% from fences.

[00:14:17] So he's not getting all of that fabulous wealth.

[00:14:21] But what he gets, he tends to be blowing on living a good life and mostly gambling.

[00:14:27] And this was the times.

[00:14:29] That's how he explained it later when he was asked about, did he have regrets?

[00:14:33] And did he wish he'd saved some of that money he'd earned?

[00:14:37] And he, because he always insisted he had none left.

[00:14:40] And I think the book shows that's true.

[00:14:42] But he just simply explained, look, those were the times, you know, why not live well?

[00:14:48] It was live for today.

[00:14:49] The generation, that lost generation coming out of the Great War that had endured so much

[00:14:55] and Barry had served overseas and been wounded.

[00:14:59] That really drew me to his story.

[00:15:01] The fact that his story would be such a perfect vehicle for giving people a sense of what the

[00:15:09] Jazz Age was like, that time of glitter and easy money.

[00:15:12] And, of course, the world's headed for an ultimate reckoning in 1929 when the stock market crashes

[00:15:20] and the good times end.

[00:15:21] And Barry's life as well crashes and burns about that time.

[00:15:27] So his rise and fall perfectly mirrors the times.

[00:15:31] So that really drew me to this.

[00:15:33] Yeah, the book is imbued with this kind of great dramatic irony because we all know the

[00:15:39] parking's not going to keep going.

[00:15:42] But certainly the people at the time did not think that.

[00:15:45] Before we get more into Barry, I'm curious, just for the listeners, can you describe more

[00:15:51] of the time and place of sort of Jazz Age New York?

[00:15:54] I loved, I'm from Westchester County, so I love that that was one of his sort of hunting

[00:15:59] grounds.

[00:16:00] But he would hit Long Island, something like Manhattan, Westchester in his sort of hunt for

[00:16:06] these different jewels.

[00:16:07] And, you know, if you could tell us a little bit more in scene set, that would be great.

[00:16:12] Because that kind of feels like it's one of the characters in the book is this time

[00:16:15] and place.

[00:16:16] Well, Barry ends up in New York after the war.

[00:16:19] He returned in a late wave of veterans to find there were no jobs.

[00:16:24] He'd had a bit of a checkered past as a juvenile delinquent, had served some time in

[00:16:30] reformatory for a break in and decided that this would be how he'd make his living.

[00:16:38] He started as a sneak.

[00:16:40] He would time his forays into houses when people were either out or entertaining downstairs.

[00:16:46] And the upstairs would be sort of, he could quietly sneak in and grab whatever jewels he

[00:16:51] could.

[00:16:52] His preferred hunting grounds were Westchester County, north of Manhattan, and also Nassau County

[00:16:58] on Long Island.

[00:16:59] And what drew him to these places was the fabulous wealth of some of the residents.

[00:17:03] There were fine estates, one of the, and also Greenwich, Connecticut, going across the

[00:17:09] Connecticut border.

[00:17:10] These were enclaves of fabulous wealth.

[00:17:12] And you only have to read the Great Gatsby, which I referenced numerous times because he's

[00:17:18] robbing at the time Fitzgerald is conceiving and writing the Great Gatsby.

[00:17:23] And the Great Gatsby is set in the middle of what is actually Nassau County, which was, as

[00:17:29] you say, one of Barry's hunting grounds.

[00:17:31] So in the course of seven years, he systematically planned and executed robberies in Westchester.

[00:17:40] Westchester County and Nassau.

[00:17:41] And what I found in going back and reconstructing the crimes he was accused of and suspected of

[00:17:48] and had confessed to, you could see a pattern.

[00:17:52] The authorities in Westchester County knew there was this burglar sneaking into houses and

[00:17:58] there were vigilante groups set up.

[00:18:01] And when the heat was on, suddenly the robbery stopped.

[00:18:05] And then they might come back a year later.

[00:18:08] What they didn't realize is it was Barry, when the heat was on, would go over to Nassau County

[00:18:12] and start there.

[00:18:14] And then when the heat got, when it got too hot in Nassau County, and at one point, the

[00:18:21] police were so frustrated with the break-ins to the estates of the wealthy on Long Island

[00:18:26] that they actually were sending patrols of detectives and police officers armed with machine

[00:18:32] guns on the back roads of Nassau County looking for him.

[00:18:37] So when the heat was on there, he would go back.

[00:18:39] And it was only in 1927 when he's ultimately caught that the police in these jurisdictions

[00:18:47] realized that all the while they'd been hunting the same person.

[00:18:51] And there was no evidence in any of the coverage I saw, any of the news coverage or any of the

[00:18:58] memoirs, anything had been written about this.

[00:19:00] No sense that until that moment, the light bulb had gone off and they'd realized, well,

[00:19:06] this is why there were similar burglaries at different times.

[00:19:09] One thing that's really fascinating about Barry is that he was not just this prowler in the

[00:19:16] night coming in and sneaking around.

[00:19:18] He was getting to know the rich and famous of the New York set at the time.

[00:19:24] I mean, some huge names, literally the Prince of England, Edward, is in the opening.

[00:19:31] But plenty of different kind of powerful people and hobnobbing with them.

[00:19:35] I mean, it's really, we'll talk about this later, but it's truly something out of a movie.

[00:19:40] And I was wondering if you could speak about that, how he sort of would charm people and,

[00:19:45] you know, often kind of insert himself into that scene.

[00:19:49] Well, this is where Barry really is an earlier version of the character Cary Grant plays in

[00:19:56] To Catch a Thief, this suave debonair.

[00:19:59] Not all his robberies involved party crashing.

[00:20:02] You know, he, well, let's start there.

[00:20:05] One of his M.O.s was that he would drive up to an estate, park his car in an out-of-the-way

[00:20:11] place, jump the fence in a tux, crouching the shrubbery until he could sort of join a group

[00:20:18] that was on a terrace or find his way into the house and then pass himself off.

[00:20:23] But to do this, I mean, he was a working class Irish kid from Worcester, Massachusetts, but

[00:20:31] he could put on the accent.

[00:20:32] He said he could mimic a Harvard type accent.

[00:20:36] So he would sound posh.

[00:20:38] He would always be impeccably dressed.

[00:20:41] And he studied the rich and famous, as you said.

[00:20:45] He studied something called the social register, which was this hundreds of pages.

[00:20:49] It was like a thick phone directory of the social climbers, the old moneyed families in

[00:20:56] Nouveau Riche of New York.

[00:20:58] And every city had one.

[00:21:00] And he claimed he'd memorized it, which is an incredible feat because it was so, I mean,

[00:21:06] it went from A to Z.

[00:21:07] But he also read the social pages of the society pages of the New York papers.

[00:21:11] And he called them his unwitting accomplices because that's where he learned who was at

[00:21:17] their estate on Long Island, who was in Palm Beach for the winter.

[00:21:22] Now, that was really valuable information for Barry because the people had gone to Palm

[00:21:26] Beach.

[00:21:27] They'd taken their jewels with them.

[00:21:28] He wanted to know when people were in their estates.

[00:21:31] And as well, the society pages would often have pictures of socialites resplendent in their

[00:21:38] jewels and pearls, helping him identify targets.

[00:21:43] He, at various times, used this ruse of sneaking in the parties.

[00:21:47] And as you say, in 1924, Edward the Prince of Wales, the future King Edward VIII, is on Long

[00:21:55] Island for a holiday.

[00:21:58] Not really an official royal visit, but the great and good of Long Island are competing

[00:22:03] to have parties and polo matches and fox hunts and yachting excursions with the Prince, the

[00:22:11] biggest celebrity on the planet at the time.

[00:22:14] And Barry meets him at one of these parties where Barry is actually, has been caught out.

[00:22:21] He was upstairs.

[00:22:22] He'd snuck upstairs, thought he'd go back out through a window, and instead had to descend to

[00:22:28] the party and suggest to the Prince, who's itching to see Manhattan incognito, that he

[00:22:37] can be his tour guide.

[00:22:38] And he was.

[00:22:39] He took him to some speakeasies and nightclubs.

[00:22:42] And I'm reading this, and it's in a memoir, and it was covered at the time.

[00:22:48] But there's no doubt it happened.

[00:22:50] You could even see the break in the press coverage.

[00:22:54] There was a night the Prince disappeared, and later on, when he was being interviewed about

[00:23:00] it, a crackerjack crime reporter who'd actually covered the Prince's visit actually checked

[00:23:07] her sources.

[00:23:08] And Barry didn't want to talk about it, but she made him talk about it because she basically

[00:23:12] had confirmed the story.

[00:23:14] So it was a real testament to how good he was, that he wasn't just this skilled burglar.

[00:23:21] He was a con man as well, who could make people think he was someone else, in this case, some

[00:23:28] young rich man, and good enough to fool the future king of England.

[00:23:34] I love that part so much, where he tells the reporter, essentially, like, I don't want to

[00:23:38] brag.

[00:23:38] Like, I don't want to talk about it.

[00:23:40] Yeah, right.

[00:23:42] Oh, man.

[00:23:43] It's really, I mean, I really hope your book gets adapted by somebody, because I feel

[00:23:48] like this would be such a good movie.

[00:23:50] There's just so many of these.

[00:23:52] It really feels, you mentioned Cary Grant.

[00:23:54] We watched kind of randomly a while back, Jewel Robbery with William Powell.

[00:24:01] Right, yeah.

[00:24:02] There really is this trope of this kind of roguish jewel seat.

[00:24:07] There's something very glamorous about the sort of jewel thieves and art thieves.

[00:24:12] And I'm just curious, like, why do you think that is?

[00:24:14] Why do we kind of have this?

[00:24:16] Why are we so charmed by people pulling off these types of heists against the wealthy?

[00:24:22] Well, to pick up on what you said, I mean, I think a lot of listeners will have seen or

[00:24:27] heard of Lupin, the Netflix series.

[00:24:29] He's a huge hit about contemporary French jewel thief.

[00:24:34] But based on the turn of the 19th century stories by Maurice Leblanc, who wrote about this sort

[00:24:42] of devilish jewel thief, but with a heart of gold, you know, ultimately trying to do the

[00:24:50] right thing.

[00:24:50] And he was a contemporary of a writer named Hornig, who was the brother-in-law of Arthur Conan Doyle,

[00:24:59] who created a character called A.J. Raffles.

[00:25:02] And Raffles at the time, so this is in the early 1900s, just before Barry comes along,

[00:25:09] Raffles was synonymous with a sort of upscale, sophisticated debonair jewel thief.

[00:25:15] And in fact, before Barry was identified, a lot of his crimes were, you know, Raffles strikes

[00:25:22] again.

[00:25:22] I mean, newspaper readers of the 20s knew exactly who they were referring to.

[00:25:26] And of course, after he was caught, he was known as an American Raffles.

[00:25:32] So there had been this long sort of fascination, I think.

[00:25:37] But I think it grows out of another sort of guilty pleasure that some of us could maybe take

[00:25:43] is to seeing the great and good, the wealthy cut down to size a little bit.

[00:25:49] I mean, Barry's not, these aren't victimless crimes Barry's committing.

[00:25:55] I mean, he's breaking into people's houses.

[00:25:58] He goes from sneak thief to actually confronting people in their bedrooms because he's found

[00:26:04] after his crimes, he sees in the newspapers all the jewelry he didn't get because it's

[00:26:08] all itemized.

[00:26:10] It was in a safe or hidden somewhere that he realizes if he can get people to cooperate.

[00:26:16] But he puts on this gentlemanly persona, you know, he says, calm down.

[00:26:22] I'm just here for the jewels, even if he had a gun in his hand.

[00:26:26] And, you know, and he would do small talk, small talk, chit chat, and became known as the

[00:26:32] gentlemanly or polite burglar.

[00:26:34] He's putting on this persona that I said, you know, as I said, really does fit into this

[00:26:41] trope that this character that's in the news.

[00:26:46] And I think that can enable us.

[00:26:49] I think that lack of violence and just the sheer audacity and politeness, for want of a better

[00:26:55] word, can maybe readers can root for him a little bit.

[00:27:00] So, you know, maybe he can be our proxy when we want to see the wealthy sort of cut down

[00:27:06] to size a little bit.

[00:27:08] And the way he did it, one of his victims, a woman who'd actually been confronted with her

[00:27:13] husband in her bedroom for a long time while burying an accomplice rooted around for jewels,

[00:27:21] she told the press later, I know he's terrible, but isn't he charming?

[00:27:26] So it's kind of a, it's like a Robin Hood who doesn't give to the poor, right?

[00:27:31] Gives to himself.

[00:27:32] There is that kind of character that, that, that the average person can sort of, if not

[00:27:39] support, because they don't want to support a criminal, they can say, well, good on you.

[00:27:43] You know, you want up somebody.

[00:27:46] Absolutely.

[00:27:46] Yeah.

[00:27:47] There seems to be that impulse in at least American culture where, you know, I mean,

[00:27:52] I, I also think of the bank robbers of the 1930s where they, there was a bit of a cultural

[00:27:59] following people like John Dillinger where it's like, oh man, they're kind of, they're, you

[00:28:03] know, getting one over on the banks.

[00:28:05] And, and many of those people were actually very violent.

[00:28:08] They can have like Bonnie and Clyde, like that's often been romanticized where no, they would

[00:28:13] actually kill people.

[00:28:14] But, um, but for something like this, where there really isn't violence aside from holding

[00:28:20] a gun on someone, which is, you know, of course is, it can be very traumatic.

[00:28:23] I don't want to downplay that, but, but definitely it seems like there was a, he was going out of

[00:28:28] his way to not hurt people.

[00:28:30] Is, is, is that fair to say these were, these were just for, and since we are the murder sheet,

[00:28:34] is it fair to say that in the commission of these robberies, he didn't kill anyone and,

[00:28:39] and did not physically harm anybody?

[00:28:41] No.

[00:28:42] No.

[00:28:42] And other than, and he said he carried the gun more for, he said many times that he would

[00:28:47] rather use a gun on himself and be captured.

[00:28:50] That ultimately didn't happen, but he never, he never fired a gun at anyone he robbed.

[00:28:57] There's no evidence.

[00:28:58] He never physically abused anyone.

[00:29:00] And as I said, I mean, there was another victim who actually met him after his arrest and thanked

[00:29:06] him for the gentlemanly way he'd robbed him, which is how we put it, how this victim put it.

[00:29:12] So there was that, there was, that was definitely his MO was nonviolence.

[00:29:18] And where I'd compare him to is slightly earlier than say that the public enemies in terms of

[00:29:24] public support for what they're doing to, to illegally reduce the income gap between risk and

[00:29:31] poor, let's put it that way, would be Butch Cassidy. And, uh, I think listeners will know

[00:29:37] the scene where, where the gang gets onto a passenger car and they're headed for the express

[00:29:42] car that is full of money. And as soon as people see them, they start reaching for their watches and

[00:29:48] wallets. And Butch Cassidy, uh, played by Paul Newman says, no, we don't want yours. We want theirs.

[00:29:55] Right. And, and immediately setting up the fact that it's us and them, you know, I said, there's

[00:30:02] nothing noble about Barry. He was feeding a gambling habit and a lifestyle habit that he very much

[00:30:08] enjoyed, uh, which is exactly, I mean, he talks exactly like Cary Grant's character in To Catch a

[00:30:14] Thief. You know, I don't want to give up this lifestyle. Uh, any, you know, uh, any woman who can

[00:30:22] run around with $750,000 worth of jewels knows where her next meal is coming from. This is his way of

[00:30:29] rationalizing it, but that's true. You know, he's, and he's, and I think even we can even root for him

[00:30:38] in the sense that what he's stealing is the ultimate status symbol for someone who's wealthy to flaunt.

[00:30:46] And I like to say that, you know, you can drive a Porsche or a Lamborghini, but you can still drive

[00:30:52] it. You can live in a huge estate, a huge mansion. You can still live in it. Jewelry, there's nothing

[00:30:59] you can do with jewelry other than wear it and flaunt it to show how rich you are. And it might have,

[00:31:05] some of it might have sentimental value, but he's targeting sort of the ultimate status symbol

[00:31:11] of the super rich. And he could rationalize it further by saying, and inevitably they had insurance.

[00:31:19] So the real victim is perhaps an insurance company. You know, what, what could be easier to get behind

[00:31:24] than that, that rationale, I guess. Absolutely. Especially in a time with such, you know,

[00:31:30] wealth disparity as, as the 1920, you know, which I think, you know, we, we probably feel today to a

[00:31:36] certain extent with like a sort of stratified society that have knots and the have, you know,

[00:31:42] getting further and further apart. So it definitely feels very. Well, if, if, if people, uh, celebrities

[00:31:48] or rich people show off their bling today, I mean that, that they were showing off their bling a hundred

[00:31:53] years ago. And, uh, Barry was very grateful for that. I'm, I'm curious, you know, flip side,

[00:32:01] can you talk about some of Barry's pursuers? You mentioned that at first police throughout these

[00:32:07] jurisdictions didn't even know what they were dealing with. They didn't know that these were

[00:32:10] connected, but, you know, I guess some of his foes, some of the people, the detectives trying to hunt

[00:32:16] down this jewel feet. And, and if you could maybe take us to 1927, when, when kind of he had a bit of a

[00:32:24] downfall, what happened there? Well, I, I've compared, uh, or one of the, the ways I've described

[00:32:31] this is, is the great Gatsby meets to catch me if you can. So we got the great Gatsby, the, the

[00:32:38] ultra glittery lifestyle of the rich and famous on long Island, but he needs a detective or he needs

[00:32:44] a pursuer. And I found one in Harold King, uh, the chief of detectives in Nassau County and Nassau

[00:32:53] County, lots of wealthy people to protect. And the early twenties finally gets its own police force.

[00:32:59] Harold King's smart guy gets, gets a made chief of detectives. He cracks some big cases,

[00:33:06] but he's got this nemesis. There's this jewel thief. He can't catch who's brazen. He keeps getting

[00:33:15] called out to the homes of these wealthy people who are not happy for the intrusion. And a lot of it,

[00:33:20] they're not happy for the notoriety because the press is having a field day with every one of

[00:33:25] these crimes. So, you know, if, if Barry's cutting them down to size by stealing the jewelry,

[00:33:32] the press is finishing the job by embarrassing him about it. So he's got Harold King on his trail

[00:33:37] and Harold King actually at one point advises homeowners in long Island to get a gun.

[00:33:43] And if you see someone on your property, use it, which is pretty extreme because it may not have

[00:33:48] been Barry, but this is what he said. And he organized the nighttime patrols with, uh,

[00:33:55] the Tommy guns looking for Barry, but as well, as I'd alluded to a lot of these wealthy people

[00:34:00] would prefer to keep things hush hush. And sometimes they were able to keep crimes out of

[00:34:07] the paper for days. They wouldn't report them to the police. They'd hire private detectives.

[00:34:12] And Barry's story shows that there was sort of an underground way of sorting out these crimes.

[00:34:20] A rich person would hire certain detectives who were known to use their contacts to find out who

[00:34:26] stole the jewels or who was fronting for this person and get them back at a fraction of the cost.

[00:34:33] So, uh, one was Noel Scaffa and he becomes a nemesis of Barry's. He was so good at this. He became Nick.

[00:34:41] He was nicknamed the great retriever because if you could get the jewels back, they had sentimental

[00:34:48] value. The, the owner is happy. If they can get them back for 10% of their value, the insurance

[00:34:56] company's happy. The only people that aren't happy are the authorities because it's an offense in New York

[00:35:02] called compounding a felony to essentially make money off a crime. So, uh, one of, one of Barry's,

[00:35:11] uh, major heists when he stole, uh, millions of dollars worth of pearls from the heiress, uh,

[00:35:18] Jesse Donahue, heiress to the Woolworth five and dime store fortune. He slipped in and out of her

[00:35:25] plaza hotel suite, uh, and got away. And he actually sold these back to Scaffa and the insurance

[00:35:33] company and created a huge scandal. Again, the only thing nobody knew with Barry at that time,

[00:35:39] that only came out later. But Barry had another private detective named Val, uh, O'Farrell,

[00:35:44] who, uh, was a bit of a shady, uh, just sort of a perfect noir on the wild side kind of private eye

[00:35:53] who, uh, was ethically fluid in his methods. Let's put it that way. And he became, uh, instrumental

[00:36:02] in, uh, finally using, in using his contacts to finally unmask Barry and claim that it was his

[00:36:09] information. And, and the record seems to support this, that he got a tip that he passed on to the

[00:36:14] police and Harold King and Long Island finally was able to arrest Barry. Absolutely. So, you know,

[00:36:24] one thing that's interesting about Barry is I think it with a lot of criminals, that would perhaps be

[00:36:28] the end of the story, but for us it's not. One thing I, uh, I was, uh, I think will surprise

[00:36:36] readers is that this goes from a heist story to a love story because in 1925, Barry meets a recently

[00:36:46] widowed woman named Anna Blake. Uh, they obviously fall for each other. They marry in 1925. She thinks

[00:36:53] he's a pretty successful salesman and he's always flush with cash or seems to be. And he tells her

[00:37:00] he's a gambler, which is true, except that's how he's losing his money, not how he's gaining his money.

[00:37:06] And she, uh, she swore, and there's no evidence to say this is a lie on her part, but she swore she

[00:37:12] didn't know what he did. And she said she didn't care what he did anyway. Not that she thought he was

[00:37:17] a jewel thief, but what happens in 1927 and Barry's arrested and is with him and they have a few odds

[00:37:26] and ends of jewelry from heists, uh, on them. And, uh, to save her from being charged as an accessory

[00:37:34] and going to prison, Barry work cuts a deal, says he'll confess and they throw him in prison for 25

[00:37:40] years. So as you said, 1927, you'd think would be the end of the story, but, uh, some hijinks ensue

[00:37:50] and let's suffice it to say that, well, in 20, in 1929, he breaks out of Auburn prison

[00:37:57] at the start of what becomes one of the worst riots in New York prison history and is on the

[00:38:04] lamb for three years and actually hides out as a fugitive with Anna for, uh, manages for three

[00:38:10] years before he's ultimately caught again. Absolutely. I don't want to do too many spoilers,

[00:38:17] but I do want to single out one portion of the book that I found fascinating was, uh, Barry's link to

[00:38:24] the kidnapping of, uh, Charles Lindbergh Jr. Or at least perceived link, I should say, you know,

[00:38:30] this is one of the most infamous crimes of that time. And can you just speak a little bit about

[00:38:36] how Barry got kind of roped into that whole story? Barry's a fugitive, uh, still of interest to the

[00:38:43] press. Every time there's a major robbery, the headlines say is Barry back at it again. Now it's,

[00:38:49] it's pretty clear that, that Barry had learned his lesson and knew how lucky he was to have some more

[00:38:55] time with his wife. And he moved around quite a bit and he ended up as luck would have it in New Jersey

[00:39:01] and the Lindbergh kidnapping happens in New Jersey. But that fact isn't known in the wake of the

[00:39:08] kidnapping. The New York daily knew the crime obsessed tabloid newspaper that was, uh, only about

[00:39:15] 10 years old and had, had covered Barry's exploits in the twenties. Um, they hired Val O'Farrell,

[00:39:23] the private eye who'd put Barry away or claimed he put Barry away. And he was, uh, doing a armchair

[00:39:31] second guessing of the New Jersey authorities. Most of it quite critical. Most of it making Val O'Farrell

[00:39:40] sound like the smartest detective ever, which it wasn't. But one of the things he floated out of the

[00:39:44] blue is, well, wait a minute now. The Lindbergh kidnapper used the ladder. Arthur Barry used the

[00:39:50] ladder. He went in the second story window and no one heard him. That was how Arthur Barry did his

[00:39:55] things. Well, Arthur Barry stole jewels. The Lindbergh kidnapper stole a kid. That didn't matter.

[00:40:02] So out of the blue, he says, Barry's a fugitive. Police should be looking for Barry. So that planted

[00:40:09] the idea. Ultimately when Barry is caught, since he's in New Jersey, the authorities who are under

[00:40:17] such pressure to solve what by this time is now a murder case because the Lindbergh baby's body had

[00:40:22] been found. Yeah. Seriously investigated. And I wasn't sure how much detail there'd be on this case

[00:40:28] or on his part in the case because he was ultimately, Barry was ultimately exonerated.

[00:40:33] But the New Jersey State Police has a huge archive of material from the investigation. And I was able

[00:40:42] to access that from the archivist there and found blow-by-blow police reports as they took Barry to

[00:40:52] lineups, as they consulted witnesses, as they even checked his shoes against footprints, casts of

[00:40:59] footprints found at the scene. And it was fascinating to see, as you said, that he was linked to this by

[00:41:08] this tenuous, really, this tenuous out-of-the-blue allegation that perhaps he was one of the, you know,

[00:41:20] it fit his methods. But Barry actually fought back and basically said, well, no,

[00:41:29] he said, whoever did that was an amateur. I wouldn't have done it like that.

[00:41:34] So it even, it not only offended him because he was outraged to be,

[00:41:38] to be blackened, his reputation blackened with this idea that he could have been the murderer.

[00:41:43] He was just as outraged that his professionalism and skill had somehow been denigrated by being

[00:41:51] compared to this, what he considered a botched break-in.

[00:41:55] There you go. He was a professional to the end. You know, one thing I wanted to ask you,

[00:42:00] just kind of going back a little bit earlier, just to cover the murder angle a little bit,

[00:42:04] is this case of Peter Wagner that Barry was linked to this kind of a shooting in a scuffle and sort of,

[00:42:16] can you speak to that? And does that shade our view or wrinkle anything around, you know,

[00:42:22] if we see Barry as violent or non-violent? Or do you feel like he was maybe cleared in that situation?

[00:42:28] Well, this came, this was quite, it's in 1922, Barry had started his robbery.

[00:42:34] And he was with a childhood friend from Worcester named James Monaghan.

[00:42:39] And they went to a dance hall in Bridgeport, Connecticut. And Barry knew Bridgeport because

[00:42:45] he'd worked in a munitions factory during the war before he went overseas, joined the army and went

[00:42:50] overseas. There were some words. His friend Monaghan mowed off, insulted a woman. It was pretty obvious

[00:42:59] that two guys from out of town shouldn't do this. They tried to leave, were confronted. And there's no

[00:43:06] evidence that Barry knew what was coming next, which was Monaghan pulled a gun and shot one of them.

[00:43:13] They got out of there. Barry was ultimately caught. Monaghan wasn't. And Barry would not

[00:43:19] turn Monaghan in. I mean, whether this was part of more twisted version of his gentleman code,

[00:43:26] but he wouldn't. So Barry was charged with murder. The case was eventually, I mean, it was so tenuous.

[00:43:34] The evidence against Barry was so tenuous that ultimately Barry pled guilty to assault and was

[00:43:43] given five months in jail. So it reflected it. But he never gave up Monaghan as the actual shooter.

[00:43:51] And ultimately, that cemented them as accomplices. When Barry needed someone to help him with some of

[00:43:57] his major heists, he came to regret the decision. But he chose Monaghan, who was thuggish, quick-tempered,

[00:44:09] everything Barry wasn't. And as I said, he came to regret that decision, as readers will see in the book.

[00:44:17] But yeah, there was that episode. And perhaps not surprisingly, Barry did collaborate with a biography

[00:44:25] that was done in the early 60s by a New York journalist named Neil Hickey. And he was pretty

[00:44:31] candid about a lot of things. There's not a mention of this dance hall shooting, but it was all over the

[00:44:37] papers. I mean, it's so much easier now for me to find all of the coverage of these things on

[00:44:42] newspaper databases. I'm not faulting the author. But it's pretty clear Barry didn't want to relive

[00:44:50] that aspect of his life. And it was a pretty close call. But as I said, the fact, I mean,

[00:44:56] the evidence was pretty clear. I was able to dig out even the coroner's report, evidence of the

[00:45:03] coroner's inquest. No one, as much as the victim's friends were outraged and looking for justice,

[00:45:11] none of them ever thought Barry was the shooter. They recognized that he just was with the wrong

[00:45:18] guy at the wrong time. That makes sense. And then sort of to conclude our discussion about Barry,

[00:45:25] I'm curious, you mentioned sort of the rogue with the heart of gold, the jewel thief with the heart

[00:45:28] of gold earlier. You know, you've done such extensive research and work on Barry for this book.

[00:45:36] I mean, where do you come down on him? Do you think he had a heart of gold? Do you think that was

[00:45:40] sort of just part of the gentlemanly act? And how do you assess him at the end of the day?

[00:45:46] Well, if there was something, you know, if there was an inconsistency, I mean, it was a pretty

[00:45:52] violent breakout from prison. But there's no evidence that Barry shot anyone, even though he was

[00:45:59] armed. In fact, Barry got shot twice as he was escaping. I mean, a former journalist was trained to

[00:46:06] be skeptical. So I don't want to just buy into everything he says. And as a writer, as a researcher,

[00:46:14] you have to interrogate what you're being told. But there is this thread of maybe heart of gold for a

[00:46:21] jewel thief isn't the best way to put it, maybe just a good heart. But you do see, I mean, he does the

[00:46:27] gentlemanly thing to protect his wife. He gets good reviews from his victims. You know, five-star

[00:46:34] reviews. Isn't he charming? And ultimately, in his own words, he's very frank. By the 1950s, he becomes

[00:46:42] kind of this curiosity. A number of features done on him. You know, it's been the World War and the

[00:46:50] Cold War. People are kind of interested in the glittering 20s. And there's a real Great Gatsby

[00:46:57] Revival after the war. So for whatever reason, Barry became interesting. And Life magazine did a

[00:47:04] major profile of him in 1956 and described him as the greatest jewel thief who ever lived. It was one

[00:47:10] of the first things I found about Barry. And I thought, okay, that's intriguing. I got to find out

[00:47:15] who this is. But in those interviews, Barry made it very clear that he recognized, you know,

[00:47:22] what it had cost him, the high living, the crime. And it cost him a big chunk of his life spent in

[00:47:29] prison. It cost him the woman he loved. It cost him any chance at a normal life. And ultimately,

[00:47:41] when he was paroled and released from prison, he earned back the respect of family and friends in

[00:47:46] Worcester. Went back to his hometown where he was notorious and ultimately got a job where he was

[00:47:53] entrusted with money, which seems odd, but he was. He did the bank deposit for a group of restaurants.

[00:47:59] Was never a concern again to anyone. Had actually had stayed active in veteran circles and was Worcester's

[00:48:06] veteran of the year in the 1970s. So all of this speaks, I think, of a good man who

[00:48:15] found a very illegal way of making his way. And he even said, he even said, look, you know, I was a smart

[00:48:23] guy when I was young. He said he came to regret his choices. He said, I could have done anything. I

[00:48:27] could have made a killing on Wall Street. Well, he was a gambler. He probably could have done well.

[00:48:34] And he even said to an interviewer, you know, when you write down all of these things, all of these big

[00:48:38] people I robbed, make sure you don't forget that Arthur Barry robbed Arthur Barry. And I thought,

[00:48:46] well, what a, you know, what a heartfelt way of putting it. In other words, who'd been robbed of

[00:48:51] the most had been Barry because he'd been robbed of so much he could have been in his life. So all of

[00:48:57] that told how he committed his crimes, how he repented. Yeah, I think, as I said, I think,

[00:49:06] I think this is kind of an antihero that we can, we can have some respect for and, and some

[00:49:13] understanding of where he was coming from. Absolutely. So I want to jump into talking about

[00:49:20] an abject villain next, not so much in the antihero fold, much more in the yikes fold, I guess. One of

[00:49:29] your other books that Kevin and I read is the murderous Dr. Cream, which is also a fascinating read

[00:49:36] about an old crime that many people may, may have forgotten. And this is of course about Dr. Thomas

[00:49:42] Neil Cream, AKA the Lambeth Poisoner. I'm curious, can you tell us what inspired you to write that book?

[00:49:49] Cream is a Canadian and I'm in Canada, so not that Canada wants to claim him. I knew of him. He

[00:49:59] bizarrely shows up on short lists of potential Jack the Ripper suspects for no other reason than three

[00:50:06] years after the Whitechapel murders. Cream is poisoning women in another downtrodden area of

[00:50:13] London, Lambeth. There's no other connection. And, and Cream was in prison in Illinois at the time,

[00:50:20] which kind of is a complicating factor, but not to the conspiracy theorists who come up with bizarre

[00:50:26] ways to teleport him there. So I knew of him and I thought there'd been one, a really good academic

[00:50:34] study, but actually a good general read as well done in the nineties called Prescription for Murder.

[00:50:41] And I thought, okay, could I update this story? And I read that book and I saw a lot of potential

[00:50:49] missed sources, court files, court coverage, newspaper accounts. And I thought, I think there's

[00:50:55] enough here, but I, I didn't want to just tell the story of, of murders because the story here is

[00:51:03] that Cream commits at least 10 murders in three countries between 1877 and 1892, including,

[00:51:13] but that includes a stretch of 10 years where he served life, part of a life sentence for one of

[00:51:20] his murders. So he was active for a very few years. And my question became, how did he get away with that?

[00:51:28] And instead of this just being murder after murder after murder, which it is, I'm not,

[00:51:32] I wasn't downplaying the grotesque things he did to people, the suffering, because he,

[00:51:39] his weapon of choice was strychnine. So he qualified as a doctor, Yale University in Montreal.

[00:51:46] He knew how strychnine worked and he worked out a, a, an MO where he would taint pills or,

[00:51:55] or concoct pills or tablets with strychnine, a deadly dose of strychnine and killing mostly patients

[00:52:03] or women who came to him. He made it known he'd do abortions. So desperate women would come to him.

[00:52:09] He would say, this medicine will do it, kill him. Uh, and then ultimately he seems to have just done

[00:52:17] it for fun. So I wanted to understand how he could get away with it for so long in so many places.

[00:52:23] And that led to other interesting paths of, uh, of inquiry. What was the state of detection in Canada

[00:52:33] in, uh, Chicago where Primm kills four of his victims and then ultimately London on England,

[00:52:40] where he's going toe to toe with Scotland Yard, the most formidable, uh, policing agency on the planet

[00:52:47] at the time, which is having difficulty realizing they're dealing with a serial killer and forensics

[00:52:54] were rudimentary. The tests for the presence of strychnine, uh, one of the foremost authorities in

[00:53:01] England tested for strychnine by putting, uh, a distillation of fluid from a corpse on his tongue

[00:53:09] to decide whether the burning sensation, which of various, he apparently his parlor trick was

[00:53:19] that he could identify up to 50 poisons by this method. So, I mean, we're talking about a grim,

[00:53:26] almost a pre-scientific or early scientific time. So I wanted to know about that, but also

[00:53:33] the milieu that Cream was moving in, how his privilege as a doctor with sterling credentials

[00:53:41] meant that he wasn't a suspect even when one of his patients died or not seen as a serious suspect.

[00:53:49] And as well, the position of women in Victorian society, this idea that a woman who, uh, was

[00:53:57] pregnant or gave birth out of, out of wedlock was living, uh, living, it was called a living death.

[00:54:03] So I really explored this because this became Cream's accomplice, that women, his victims were

[00:54:10] driven to him. I mean, compared to Jack the Ripper who stopped his victims, Cream just had to wait for

[00:54:17] them to come to him. And he cruelly betrayed their trust. He cruelly abused his position and privilege.

[00:54:24] So all of this gave such a, a grim, but also real, real look at the, the inequity and the prejudice

[00:54:35] and the misogyny of Victorian, Victorian times. And again, explained how Cream had gotten away with it

[00:54:45] for so long. So the subtitle of the book, it's, it's the case of the murderous Dr. Cream, but the subtitle is

[00:54:51] The Hunt for a Victorian Era Serial Killer. So the focus is the manhunt. For me, that was the way to look

[00:54:59] into it. I don't soft pedal any of the, the crimes because I wanted to, to honor the victims who, in earlier

[00:55:07] accounts here and there, their names were misspelled. The number of victims was unknown. I said, no, no, I'm going to make,

[00:55:14] I'm going to make you understand these were real people who encountered this vicious monster who was

[00:55:21] bent on, on ensuring they died cruel deaths. So I wanted all that, but I also wanted you to understand

[00:55:29] how the time and place again created, helped this monster, created this monster. And one of the devices

[00:55:37] I was able to use was when Cream's ultimately caught for his 10th murder in London in 1892,

[00:55:46] Scotland Yard realizes they, they, they suspect him of four murders in London. They realize there's six

[00:55:53] more back in Canada, the United States. They send inspector Frederick Jarvis, sort of one of their crack

[00:56:00] investigators to Canada and the U S to trace Cream's past and root. And he became the character

[00:56:07] that I could tell Cream's backstory. So I could start with Cream going to England and committing

[00:56:13] those murders. And the backstory is how was this monster created? And, um, so again, the focus was

[00:56:21] on the manhunt. Absolutely. It's, it's another fascinating book that we definitely encourage

[00:56:27] our readers or our listeners rather to read because, uh, it is just, it's like, it's very

[00:56:33] cinematic. Some of these stories that you tell, like you can really, you transport, I think the reader

[00:56:37] back into these things and it just feels like you're, you're watching it all. Um, these kinds of

[00:56:42] fascinating crimes that some folks may have heard of and then others may be unfamiliar with, but you

[00:56:47] certainly, you know, unpack it in a way that I think it's very compelling. Well, thanks. I mean,

[00:56:53] uh, that's really, I think the business of nonfiction writer should be in if you're writing

[00:56:58] about history is to transport the reader to a time and place. Um, I teach, um, in a graduate program,

[00:57:05] an MFA program here in Canada and creative nonfiction. And some people think, well, does that mean you

[00:57:11] create stuff? And, and it's the opposite. Creative part is the storytelling using scenes, using

[00:57:19] characters, using, uh, uh, settings, even dialogue, but all of it true, all of it based on the public

[00:57:28] record. You work with what you've got. So you have to do a lot of research, but you know, if, if a color

[00:57:35] is described, that's because it was described in a record. If there's a quotation that came from a

[00:57:41] record, if there's a conversation that's related in a memoir or it's the give and take in a courtroom.

[00:57:47] So all of it's true, but the real, uh, challenge and the real art of it is to try to put the reader

[00:57:57] in the moment and, uh, to make you feel like, yeah, that you're watching this happening real time.

[00:58:03] But I just wanted to assure people that, that, you know, the creative part is not adding anything,

[00:58:08] no embellishment at all. And, uh, readers of my work will find copious end notes. And I just think

[00:58:16] that's so important because, uh, the easy way would be to, well, I don't quite know what this room

[00:58:22] look like. You know, I'll assume. And you can't, you can say sometimes no doubt this happened or likely,

[00:58:30] but you do that sparingly. You know, the, uh, I think the narrator jumps in with that

[00:58:35] sparingly. Um, you make the most of what you've got. And if you're recreating a scene, what

[00:58:42] something looked like, that's because you poured over photos, you poured over maps, you poured over

[00:58:47] memoirs and your, the details you're giving are absolutely correct.

[00:58:53] And I'm curious earlier in our conversation, you mentioned, you know, you want a, a story to have

[00:58:59] legs. Um, and, and as you sort of, I suppose, maybe, maybe look for your next story to tell,

[00:59:05] you know, what, what sort of things give you an indication that this is going to be something

[00:59:09] worth pursuing for sort of a book length, uh, project?

[00:59:13] Well, the idea is my editor at Algonquin, Amy Gash always, you know, when we talk about an idea,

[00:59:20] you know, it's like, and, you know, and what else? And that is, so I'm conditioned to look for that,

[00:59:27] but it's, it's kind of this bigger picture. So, uh, and, and when we're, when I'm dealing with

[00:59:33] students and they're talking about their projects, it's, it's kind of like, what else is your book

[00:59:38] about? You know, I'm, I'm writing a memoir or I'm writing this story about this calamity.

[00:59:44] What is that bigger picture? If listeners are familiar with David Grant,

[00:59:50] a latest book, The Wager, and it's about a, a 250 year old shipwreck of a British frigate on a

[00:59:59] remote Island off South America and the ordeal of the, uh, uh, of the, uh, of the, uh, the survivors.

[01:00:07] And, um, but he explains that there's a bigger picture. It's a bigger picture of imperial hubris.

[01:00:15] The idea that the British empire could basically project its power anywhere its ships could sail,

[01:00:22] uh, running head, head first into the reality of, of this inhospitable, uh, weather and, uh, land and,

[01:00:31] and island that these, uh, these unfortunates end up shipwrecked on. And also that it becomes a

[01:00:38] breakdown of, of order and discipline that the Navy, that the British armed forces so jealously guarded.

[01:00:46] And out of that becomes, uh, different narratives. So, so David explains that it's really, it's,

[01:00:54] it's a bigger story about the lies and truths people, nations, organizations tell,

[01:01:01] tell, tell themselves, tell others to justify their position. So, so suddenly this riveting event

[01:01:09] of the shipwreck, which in a sense is enough also has more. And I think that's what I'm saying is,

[01:01:18] so with cream is this gripping tail of the hunt for, uh, this Victorian era serial killer,

[01:01:27] what does it say about the time and place? And how does it, you know, what are the other aspects?

[01:01:35] Victorian society, the state of detection, the state of forensics. So that's what I mean by,

[01:01:41] by legs. And in Barry, it's, um, the allure of jewels, the, the iconic jewel thief in popular culture,

[01:01:50] uh, the celebrity, uh, the celebrity, celebrity crook that he becomes, uh, later, uh, after his arrest and,

[01:01:57] and huge headlines and, and, uh, my life telling his life story in serialized form. Those are the kinds

[01:02:05] of things that I, I think transform a great story into an, uh, an even better credible story.

[01:02:14] Um, um, I wanted to ask you, Dean, is there anything I didn't ask you, uh, before we go,

[01:02:20] anything you wanted to mention or talk about either of these stories or your process or anything like

[01:02:25] that? No, I, I think maybe you've handled it great. Love to hear that. And then where can people find

[01:02:35] your books? They can find my books everywhere. A Gentleman, a Thief is published in the U S by

[01:02:40] Algonquin books, which is part of a chat. And in Canada, it's HarperCollins, Canada, uh, available

[01:02:47] everywhere, but people want to find out more about those, uh, that book, my other books, my,

[01:02:52] uh, what I'm working on now can go to my website, www.dean, D E A N J O B B.com.

[01:03:02] Amazing. Well, thank you so much. It was really a pleasure talking to you and, and I can't recommend

[01:03:07] these books enough. They're really, really good for, for everyone looking for, um, sort of a historical,

[01:03:12] uh, nonfiction, uh, mystery that really does transport you to these times and introduces

[01:03:17] you to some pretty fascinating characters. Well, thank you. Thanks for your interest in having me on.

[01:03:23] We want to thank Dean for talking to us. We'll link to his website and books in our show notes. Check them

[01:03:28] out. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Shade. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we

[01:03:35] cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved

[01:03:45] crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining

[01:03:52] our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of

[01:04:02] money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much

[01:04:11] appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the

[01:04:18] Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other

[01:04:26] listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:04:31] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to

[01:04:38] check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again

[01:04:44] for listening. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us. I think in

[01:04:54] one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my

[01:05:00] jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting

[01:05:04] on the Quintz products you wear? Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a

[01:05:09] brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give

[01:05:18] you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket,

[01:05:25] and I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It

[01:05:31] looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I

[01:05:35] have, yeah. And deservedly so. Also, like I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know,

[01:05:40] like I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes

[01:05:45] it's something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like

[01:05:50] very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable.

[01:05:56] You're not, you're not, it's not one of those things where you're like you buy it and it looks

[01:05:59] great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love

[01:06:03] them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're, you're the guy

[01:06:07] who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got

[01:06:12] something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes.

[01:06:15] But I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[01:06:22] But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this

[01:06:26] is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[01:06:30] Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely.

[01:06:34] Quince.com. There you go. So you can go to quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're

[01:06:40] offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's quince.com slash msheet.

[01:06:46] That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash m-s-h-e-e-t.

[01:06:52] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our

[01:06:58] great new sponsor, Acorns?

[01:07:00] Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember when you support our sponsors, you're supporting

[01:07:03] us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate

[01:07:08] them.

[01:07:08] We love our sponsors.

[01:07:10] Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who

[01:07:14] wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[01:07:18] That can seem daunting.

[01:07:19] It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started

[01:07:25] with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the

[01:07:30] guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control

[01:07:36] of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start

[01:07:41] automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family,

[01:07:46] your retirement, and you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this.

[01:07:51] It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like

[01:07:56] you need to put in some massive payment. So it's a great fit for people who are starting

[01:08:03] out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their

[01:08:08] money work for them more.

[01:08:09] So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to

[01:08:14] start saving and investing for your future today.

[01:08:16] Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[01:08:20] Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC

[01:08:25] registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[01:08:29] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya. This is really a wonderful

[01:08:35] product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[01:08:38] Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does

[01:08:42] that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods.

[01:08:48] Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically,

[01:08:52] zen really helps me fall asleep. Some zen can really just kind of help me get more into that

[01:08:58] state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support

[01:09:03] to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make this show

[01:09:07] possible. I'm going to say this, like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors,

[01:09:12] you're supporting us and it kind of makes it possible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your

[01:09:17] loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's

[01:09:21] very high, high quality, high value. Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of,

[01:09:27] what do I do? Okay. If you're 21 and older, head to VayaHemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive

[01:09:33] 15% off. And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A,

[01:09:39] hemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout. Spell the code. M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase,

[01:09:47] they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it

[01:09:51] lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.