Extra! Extra! John Wayne Lehman Pleads Guilty

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[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: assault. So today we are going to be doing another one of our extra extra segments.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a relatively new segment for us where we're talking about either major breaking news

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: or major recent developments in a case that we're covering. And today we're going to be doing

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the case of Laurel Jean Mitchell. Laurel was a 17-year-old girl living in North Webster, Indiana,

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in 1975. On a summer's night she left work and tried to walk to a nearby theme park. Unfortunately

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: she never made it there. She was abducted, raped and murdered. Her body was then found in Noble County,

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: away from her Kosciuszko County home. Well, there was a massive development relatively recently

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: in 2023 in the case when two men, John Wayne Lehman and Fred Bandy were arrested for this

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: heinous crime. And what we're going to do today is talk about some pretty major developments

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in this case and what's happening right now and just get everyone up to speed on what's going on

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: in Laurel's case. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is Extra Extra, the murder of Laurel Jean Mitchell. John Wayne Lehman pleads guilty.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so let me boil down the biggest update and then we'll go through it piece by piece

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: because sometimes you get a lot of interesting details as you look through the documents

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in a case. But to sum it up, what happened is that John Wayne Lehman, one of the defendants

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: in this case, opted for a change of plea. So he went from pleading not guilty saying,

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't do this, to pleading guilty. Obviously given that there are two of them,

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: this is a pretty huge development. It totally changes how this case is probably going to go.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And as we're seeing in a moment, he's pleading guilty, but he's not pleading guilty to what he

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: was originally charged with, which was murder. And we will talk about that in a minute.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. So there's been a lot of back and forth over this case in there was a lot of

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: continuances for different hearings in John Wayne Lehman's case in particular.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And let's talk about Mr. Lehman for a moment. He went from the Noble County Jail to being

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: incarcerated in the Miami County Correctional Facility. And you may be thinking, but Anya,

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: he's a pretrial detainee. He's a pretrial defendant. How on earth could he be detained

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in prison? We all know from the Delphi murder case with Richard Allen that that is highly

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: unusual. Yes, it is unusual. It is not unheard of. We also learned from the Allen case that actually

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: there's at least a number of people where they do get incarcerated in prison prior to their trials

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: for a variety of reasons. And in Mr. Lehman's case, it was because of health reasons. It was

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because they felt they could not accommodate his health concerns in jail. So he ended up

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: transferred to Miami County, to Miami Correctional Facility. So that's what was going on with him.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Now let's set the scene a little bit here in terms of who's who in this case. The

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: prosecutor is prosecuting attorney James B. Maury. I hope I'm saying his name right. And if I'm

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: not, I'm sorry. And then Bart Arnold is the defense attorney of the public defender representing

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Lehman. So those are sort of the players in addition to Lehman.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a couple of filings with a bunch of redacted information. I don't think it's

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that helpful to go in there. The reason it was redacted is because it included the defendant's

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: personal medical information. So that is something that happened. But at some point during the summer,

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: specifically in May, there started to be going back and forth indications that something was

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: changing in Lehman's case. And at one point, there was a change of plea hearing scheduled

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: for June 18th, 2024. And this got continued. I imagine that must have been very stressful

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for everyone where there's a situation where there might be a conclusion to this case. There may be a

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: change of plea, but it keeps on getting pushed back. And the prosecuting attorney never had any

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of objection to this. So I think there was sort of an understanding. But ultimately,

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: what happened was that... Well, I think with the benefit of we've seen some of these documents,

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: we can guess what was going on behind the scenes, which is that Mr. Lehman apparently

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: did not want to plead guilty to murder. Okay. What makes you say that?

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Because at one point during all of this administrative back and forth and hearings being

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: scheduled and rescheduled and postponed, the state added account. In addition to the murder

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: charge, they added a charge of conspiracy to commit murder. And we've talked about conspiracies in

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: other cases. And to be guilty of a conspiracy of a criminal act, you have to commit overt acts to

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: further that said conspiracy. Yes, that's correct. So what's an overt act?

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we talked about this a lot in our episode on the death of Matthew Perry, the actor who died of

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: a ketamine overdose and a number of people who were getting him ketamine ended up being charged with

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of a conspiracy around this. But my understanding is that an overt act requires

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: some sort of like... You can't just sort of idly say, I'm going to kill somebody. There has

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to be specific actions that you take to further said conspiracy in order for it to count as an

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: overt act. That's not a very technical definition, but that's my understanding. Is that correct?

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's say for instance that there was an agreement to commit murder and Mr. Lehman

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: provided transportation there. He's driving someone to the murder scene hypothetically. I don't

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing that Mr. Lehman felt comfortable pleading guilty to conspiracy of murder,

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: but not to the murder charge itself. And so one complicating factor is I think we all know

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that there is no statute of limitations on murder. That's right. There is a statute of limitations

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: on conspiracy charges ran out long ago. Yeah, in Laurel's case, the conspiracy to commit

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: murder, the statute of limitations were up. There was no charging that, but they did.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So what? But we're going to talk about that before we kind of unpack that whole thing.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me just actually read what he was charged with because this was filed August 8th, 2024.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So conspiracy to commit murder of felony LC 35 111, one as of 1975. The affiant of the probable

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: cause affidavit filed herewith swears that on or about August 7th, 1975, in the county of noble

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: state of Indiana, one John Wayne Lehman united or combined with any other person or persons to

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: wit Fred Bandy Jr. For the purpose of committing of committing a felony within this state, said felony

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: being murder wearing the victim was Laurel J Mitchell, all of which is contrary to the form

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: of IC 35 111 as of 1975, contrary to the form of the statute in such cases made and provided

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and against the peace and dignity of the state of Indiana approved this seventh day of August

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: 2024 L B. Mowry prosecuting attorney 33rd judicial circuit noble county state of Indiana.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Quick point. There's a reason why when Anya was reading, she had to keep on saying as of 1975.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: That's when this crime occurred and you can only be charged with crimes that existed when you

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02]: committed the crime. That's a yeah, that's a very important facet of law and so this is a situation

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: where that's so correct me if I'm wrong this count was added on August 8th, which was the same

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: day the plea agreement was filed. That's correct. So we had all of this come together. I'm sure

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that was part of a plan where there was some sort of negotiation of what he was going to

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: plead to. And now we're going to talk about the order of guilty plea filing that came.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: This was before actually Michael J Kramer, a judge with the noble circuit court. So he was the one

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: hearing this and this happened as you said on August 8th of this year. So pretty recently,

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to read this whole thing so we have all of the information. So quote

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: change of plea hearing held this day, this eighth day of August 2024. The state of Indiana

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: appears by James Mallory and the defendant appears by zoom in custody at the Miami correctional

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: facility and by counsel Bart Arnold. There are is now filed with the court in agreement.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The defendant is advised of his constitutional rights, the effect of a plea of guilty

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and not guilty. The statute and penalty provisions are read. The defendant now

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: enters a plea of guilty to conspiracy to commit murder, a class A felony as charged and added

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: count two of the information. Statements of the defendant are heard and concluded. The court now

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: finds that defendant is 68 years of age, that he understands the nature of the charges against

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: him to which he has pled guilty, that he understands the possible sentences and finds

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: there under that is please were freely and voluntarily made is please are accurate

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and that there is a factual basis for the defendant's plea of please of guilty.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The court now takes the pleas of guilty under advisement under the sentencing hearing

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: until the sentencing hearing the court, the court, the it says the count orders the

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: noble county adult probation department to prepare and file a written pre-sentence

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: investigation report on or before October 4th 2024. The court now sets this matter

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: for status slash sentencing October 11 2024 at 9 a.m. The defendant waives sentencing within 30 days.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: The defendant is remanded to the custody of the noble county sheriff's department under bond

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: here to force set in this case so ordered this 8th day of August 2024 Michael J. Kramer

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: judge noble circuit court and quote it said at one point the count orders I'm assuming

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that was a typo and they meant the court but that gives you a sense of all that has happened.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: One thing it's important to remember is that with a with a plea in a situation like this

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: with a guilty plea, the judge often takes pains usually takes pains to go over what that means.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They do not want people making idle guilty pleas and then saying well no I actually didn't

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: do it they want to go over it in detail with the defendant here's what you're signing up

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: for essentially here's what this means so we saw that in the case of keg and client with judge

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Timothy spar in Miami County and I imagine something like that may have happened here

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and as as we noted before you know the defendant is appearing by zoom from Miami correctional

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: facility so kind of gives an indication that this man may not have been able to travel for this.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes and in the plea agreement itself it indicates that the judge will be reviewing it

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and if for whatever reason the judge decides to reject it then the agreement is avoided

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and all of Lehman's rights will be restored to him but again what I find most interesting about

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: this is the fact that he is pleading guilty to something that is voided by the statute of

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: limitations and of course is you would expect that is addressed in the plea itself.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It is indeed and I think I'll just go ahead and maybe read this plea.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to read the whole thing or just that particular section for now?

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well let me look I think maybe I'll read portions of the whole thing time you know from piece to

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: piece but what what what part do you think I should start with?

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you start with section three?

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay section three I'll do that so quote the parties agree to the following legal

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: interpretations regarding this matter.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: A. This court has jurisdiction over this person and the subject matter herein as a result of

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the initial charge being murder for which there has been no period of limitations imposed by

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Indiana law between the date of commission of the acts that led to this change charge and

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: today's date. B. I see 3541 for 2 j states a prosecution is considered timely commenced for

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: any offense to which the defendant enters a plea of guilty notwithstanding that the period

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: of limitation has expired and therefore the defendant's conviction as a result of his guilty

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: plea pursuant to this plea agreement is lawful and is not barred by any period of limitation.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: C. The sentencing range upon conviction of added count 2 is found in IC 3511111

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: as of 1975 which states that upon conviction the defendant shall be fined not less than $25

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: nor more than $5,000 and imprisoned in the state prison not less than two years no more than 14 years.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: D. So what what does all that mean basically they start by saying there is no statute of

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: limitations for murder so there was nothing wrong with us filing murder charges against that man

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Lehman and then in the second paragraph they are saying that the law of Indiana says

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that if someone pleads guilty to a crime he is basically waving his right to say that that crime

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: is barred from prosecution by the statute of limitations he's basically saying I'm not going

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to use that defense and so the law says that if a person pleads guilty to it you can't say it's barred

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: by the statute of limitations so that's how they're trying to get around this does that make sense

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: C. It does so to use our our typical stupid example if you know I'm certain that there's a

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: statute of limitations on larceny in this state and if I were to you know 20 years from

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: now say you know however long decades from now say that I was indeed a serial serial theft

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know artist or whatever you know cat burglar with with grocery stores then

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: would would I still be if I just admitted to that I mean even if the statute of limitations

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: passed or or is it not about an admission is it about an admission in the context of a guilty

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: plea there has to be some sort of charge before you okay you can't just wake up one morning and

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: send an email to the prosecutor and say I stole a box of cereal when I was in high school please

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: charge me with that the prosecutor has to make a decision to go forward with charges in the

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: first paragraph that's basically what they're indicating we did so they look in other words

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd have to be busted for killing somebody and I would have to then say well I you know

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't really kill them but I was stealing cereal at the time like that then they could

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: charge me or that then they could then they could accept that plea agreement essentially

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: if for whatever reason there's a legitimate reason to file the charge okay that makes sense

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: so and then you might ask why is he willing to plead guilty to conspiracy and not to murder

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe he feels he's not guilty of murder maybe he feels he's just guilty of conspiracy but then

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: also it indicates there in the concluding paragraph that you just read that the sentence for this

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: conspiracy charge is much less severe than a murder charge right and we'll talk about what

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: he's specifically getting here in a moment and keep in mind as you mentioned before he's a sick man

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: yes and so it is very possible that even a short prison term might be a lifetime sentence for him

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah he's 68 years old and in very poor health it sounds like so that's definitely possible

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: one thing that I was thinking about too is just in the context of this we often hear about

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: felony murder if you know if we're committing a felony together and you shoot somebody and I'm not

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I didn't tell you to do that I'm not involved in that but I was still engaged in the

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: felony with you then I'm still I can be hit with a felony murder charge because what I was doing

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: felony wise was so inherently dangerous that sort of like people could have gotten killed and

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in this case someone did so I guess one thing that I suppose it's just all of the felonies in

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: this situation the statutes of limitations have likely expired yeah you can't charge

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't reach a felony murder charge by charging someone with a felony that you can't

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: charge them with because of the statute I think literally the only crime that hasn't been

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: barred by the statute of limitations in this case would be the murder count because keep in

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: mind this happened in 1975 that's nearly 50 years ago yeah that it's a very very long time ago

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and my understanding yeah it's it's a very long time ago but of course it's worth mentioning that

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: for the people who loved her it feels like yesterday and it's something they've had to deal with

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: every day since then that someone they've cared about and loved is gone and so these people still

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: deserve justice it's interesting I know I saw an article that I wanted to talk about from wish

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: from wish tv where indiana lawmakers were considering ending the statute of limitations

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: for rape specifically because our my understanding is that there is a five year statute of limitations

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and I personally believe that that should be lifted and I hope that they do change that

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's some crimes where statute of limitations makes sense if you were some you

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: know wild kid when you were 15 and you stole a car that's not a nice thing to do that somebody's

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: property I'm not saying that that's okay and if you get caught at the time then you know

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: there should be some there should be some justice there but if it's a situation where

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I mean do we want someone like some 40 year old dad's life ruined because they made a

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: mistake that long ago and you're always telling me that you believe there should be a 15 minute

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: statute of limitations on serial theft there you go but the thing to mention as we did before that

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: if the state of Indiana does does pass this and say from now on there's no statute of limitations

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: on rape that doesn't mean you can then go and charge someone with a rape that happened

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: decades ago it just means that if someone commits a rape after the change in the law

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: there would be no statute of limitation on that yes there would be there would be a shift

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: there wouldn't be a shift in terms of things that have already happened it's important to note

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that there's no time machine when it comes to the law where they can go back and say okay

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: actually these things that happened are now illegal retroactively it has to just be going

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: forward that's all we can do is go forward here but I do know that uh Indiana Senator

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott Alexander has some legislation that would would change things and it would eliminate the

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: statute of limitations for I think sex crimes in general so that would be that would be a shift

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm sure that's controversial with some I'm sure that's controversial with some

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: defense attorneys and I can understand that but I do think that when it comes to sex crimes

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that's just something that I think I mean I personally would support you know not property

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: crimes sex crimes but yeah that's that's sort of um that's some context in the background but I

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: wanted to actually read out more specific information on what Lehman is now facing

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: with with this plea agreement in place quote the defendant agreed to plead agrees to plead guilty

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: as shown above and the parties agreed the following sentence to be imposed by the court

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: eight years all to be served in the Indiana Department of Corrections no part of the initially

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: imposed sentence herein may be served on community corrections or any other alternative to incarceration

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: all remaining terms and conditions of the sentence to be imposed herein shall be left to the sound

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: discretion of the trial court as a part of the agreement of the parties the defendant

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: acknowledges that the statement he provided to police on the day he was arrested for this

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: matter is true and accurate and further that he will offer truthful testimony in the prosecution of

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Fred Bandy in cause 57c 01 2302 mr 000002 the parties shall enter into this agreement base

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: in part on the understanding that the defendant shall earn one day of good time credit for each

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: day that he is incarcerated as a result of the sentence end quote that gives us some further

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: details that I think are really interesting so he's going to be serving eight years but

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: he will likely serve significantly less because of the good time deal yes so he's going to be

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: getting a pretty lenient sentence frankly given that he participated in the brutal murder of a

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: 17 year old girl that being said he is going to be testifying against his

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: accomplice or person he was an accomplice to Fred Bandy and I imagine that that was an important

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: aspect of this deal and again he's a very sick man so wasn't that the whole reason he was moved

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to Miami correctional because the county did not have the facilities to provide him with

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: proper medical care that is correct so I'm not even sure frankly that he's going to live four years

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that is fair yeah it seemed he I mean just looking at his picture also he does not look good

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: now one thing that's interesting as well is that when we look at the original probable cause

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: affidavit there is talk about DNA testing and and whose DNA was you know who's who was who did the male

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: DNA profile belong to that was found on Laurel's clothing and the answer seems to be given the

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: fact that Fred Bandy jr. was given the buckle swab and whatnot it seems to be that Fred Bandy

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: jr's DNA was one found connected to this crime so the stronger case is against Bandy

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and it also seems is if when mr. Lehman was arrested that he must have given some sort of statement

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of the facts to the police and that statement must have indicated that Bandy was the one

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: responsible for the severity of the crime in the DNA left behind and such and not that this

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily means anything because you know people commit crimes and get away with them this

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: someone's criminal record is not always going to be a full accounting of their crimes but Lehman

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: had a clean record from what we saw whereas Bandy had a conviction for child molestation

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: so it is possible given all of those facts the speculation but it is possible that Bandy was

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the more of the instigator in this crime and that therefore prosecutors sought to make a deal with

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Lehman perhaps given that he they felt that in honesty he felt was a was less culpable than Bandy

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly culpable for his role in this prayer but perhaps not the killer perhaps somebody who

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: is just an accomplice and let's be clear Lehman sat on this information I mean if he had been

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: someone who had really not participated he had decades decades that he could have come forward

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and ease this family suffering and ease the suffering of the community of North Webster and

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: told them what Bandy had done and taken accountability for his own role in it he never did that they

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: had to come to him but now at this time where he is dealing with health issues and Bandy is still

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: facing prosecution I can understand why the prosecution made a deal with him given the

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: circumstances I think the rest of this plea agreement is basically boilerplate indicating

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Lehman is agreeing that he had good representation from his defense attorneys

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: so he can't go and try to file an ineffective counsel he's indicating that he understands

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that he is giving up some rights by making this plea agreement he's not going to get his

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: beauty trial obviously and he also indicates that he would not appeal any sentence given to him as

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a result of this plea agreement that is consistent with the plea agreement so eight years or last

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: basically okay yeah and and now I think we can actually move on to where this puts

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Fred Bandy's case Fred Bandy jr. so Fred Bandy jr. is still scheduled to go to trial

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: on october 7th 2024 it'll be a five-day trial ending on october 11th so that's currently all

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: still in the mix judge kramer is also on that and Fred Bandy is represented by a number of

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: attorneys including james jeffrey abs sarah ober and john tipped him and so um there was

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: a pretty strong case against Fred Bandy yeah and it just got stronger with this plea because

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: now there's going to be testimony against him by his accomplice yeah that's pretty bad

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: the question we often get in other cases is why even have a trial well um our right to a trial

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: for all of us american citizens is enshrined in our u.s constitution we all have a right to go

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to trial if you if you have me on surveillance footage stealing serial and then i give an interview

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: to the news media saying i stole that serial and then i write a book in which i talk about

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: stealing serial and give a bunch of evidence and my dna is found at the scene i can still go to

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: trial i mean i i'm gonna lose but i can still go to trial that's my right and and that is

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that is all of our rights in america because the state has an obligation they cannot take away

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: someone's liberty unless they are able to prove to a legal standard that person is guilty of the

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the crime as charged beyond a reasonable doubt and in a case like this if this man mr bandy

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is found guilty as frankly he very likely will be found what does he have to lose it will it will not

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: be fun to go into a trial situation for several days and people say awful things about you but it's the

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: same motivation that might inspire people to buy a lottery ticket maybe he has a one in a million

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: chance that something unexpected will happen and there'll be a hung jury or something like that so

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that must be what's in his mind i have nothing to lose i may as well take my shot yeah i'm a

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: believe in our jury system but you know i think i think in true crime oftentimes people malign

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: juries well they're not they're the people who know the least about the crimes trust me given how

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: true crime works that's what you want you don't want a bunch of people who made up their minds

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: already you want people who are open minded who are coming into it and just applying common

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: sense and applying you know what they heard from the experts but juries do get it wrong

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: they get it wrong they wrongfully convict people and they get it wrong and they sometimes exonerate

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: people who did it and that's a risk you have to take that's a really like a prosecutor or defense

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: attorney they never know what a jury is going to do necessarily they can have a good guess but

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: there can always be a wild card and as kevin said uh mistrials also happen so it makes sense

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: when people kind of act like well he's sit he's you know they're maintaining their innocence

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: so that means something no it doesn't come on i mean people lie let's let's be real um there's

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: been a number of filings in his case around leman now um this was for uh this was back in uh june

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: third and there was a notice saying please take notice that on june 18 2024 there will be uh the

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: trial video recorded deposition of john wane leman and you are invited to tend to cross examine

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and then there was another similar filing for august 8th which i imagine the first one was rescheduled

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they had to go in on august 8th so they were inviting bandy's council to come in and cross

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: examine leman as part of this because obviously that'll be important evidence against bandy

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: junior at trial and in addition to that for the noble circuit court there was a notice to clerk

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: of court of jury trial and prospective jurors are going to be called into the court um from on both

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: october 7th and october 8th and so i don't know how that's gonna work because they're having like

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: 8am 10 30 1pm 2 30 on october 7th which i thought was this day it was supposed to start but i don't

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't i maybe there's some explanation for that or whatnot but they're going to be bringing in a

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: lot of people like different groups of 50 jurors at a time so this is a case i wouldn't say there's

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: been like a media fire storm around this case like some that we've seen but it's definitely

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: gone to media attention but i imagine it's certainly in a small town where everybody knows

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody and everybody has family who's lived there for decades i imagine there's a lot of people

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: who know who know i imagine there's a lot of people who know some connected to this case

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who live in that area yeah so it makes sense to cast a wide net with the jury yeah they're

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna have to cast a wide net for sure more for the personal connections than for the media

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: attention i imagine but yeah i think this is just one of those cases that i'm just i'm very

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: glad that indiana state police were able to kind of stay on it get that dna and put some charges together

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and it sounds like there's a conclusion in one of them and and i imagine that um

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02]: bandy is headed for a conviction this is a pretty damning case against him frankly the

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: fact that there's dna that there's a an accomplice who is saying this is what happened

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a testimony from a witness who says that bandy confessed to the crimes years earlier so this

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: is this is not looking good for him but it's certainly i imagine looking good in the view of

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: laurel's family um her her surviving relatives her brother and sister who have waited years for

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: justice and we know from talking with people in the community this case means so much to

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the women who were laurel's friends back then to their families to the families of

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the law enforcement investigators who worked this case to the community as a whole because

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: this represented a huge tragedy for the mitchell family and beyond for that community and tomorrow

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: tomorrow's episode we will actually be hearing from some of the loved ones of the town

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: marshal who investigated the case for a long time who really had this case haunt him and

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: who unfortunately died before there was any answers in the case but we'll be learning a

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: bit about him and his work on the case from those who knew him and loved him so that will

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: be tomorrow's episode and we'll get a bit more of that context and maybe you'll learn a bit

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: a more about north webster in its history thank you all for listening thank you thanks so much

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[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: special thanks to kevin tyler greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet

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