Going Behind Bars: A Conversation with A Former Indiana Correctional Officer

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03] The Murder Sheet keeps us super busy and so sometimes between writing and podcasting and trying to sell these t-shirts, we don't do a great job of taking care of ourselves. That's probably something a lot of people can relate to. We're all busy people with jobs and families and obligations. It can be hard putting yourself and your own health first.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_02] Our brand new sponsor Prolon can help. Prolon's fasting mimicking diet is a plant-based nutrition program that is backed by science. It takes all the fuss out of fasting. Instead of giving up food, you undergo a five-day program where you enjoy snacks, soups and beverages designed to make your body's cells believe they are fasting.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03] It's designed to give a serious boost to your metabolic and cardiovascular health. Plus, it's a no-brainer. Your food comes in prepackaged and labeled so you know what to eat and when. They found that three consecutive Prolon cycles can reduce your biological age score by 2.5 years and cut your waist circumference down by 1.5 inches. Plus, it gets you down to a healthier blood sugar level.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01] Fast with food. Take charge of your health. Try Prolon.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03] To help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, Prolon is offering Murder Sheet listeners 15% off site-wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day nutrition program. Just visit prolonlife.com slash msheet. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash msheet to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife slash msheet.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03] Add some luxury into your life without breaking the bank. Check out our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02] This is a brand that's unlocking luxury products for all of us ordinary people. All the things that sound pricey and out of reach like washable silk shirts and dresses, 14-karat gold jewelry, European linens, Italian leather handbags, sweaters of Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton. That's what Quince offers, but at an unbeatable price.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03] All Quince items are 50-80% less costly than those of their competitors. It's an amazing deal. They cut down the middleman and pass the savings on to you. And remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're supporting our show.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02] We recently gifted ourselves some pieces from Quince. I got their suede bomber jacket. This one is very stylish and it keeps me really warm, which is helpful because it's been a cold winter. I also like the way I look in it, which is big for me.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_03] Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash msheet. Content warning. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, violence, and mental health issues.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_03] Some of the allegations in the Richard Allen case involve him being possibly mistreated while being held in custody at Westville. That's gotten us all very curious about what life in prison is really like. After all, this is a world where many of us have never ventured. In previous episodes, we've had conversations about that subject with individuals who have been incarcerated at Westville or elsewhere within the state of Indiana.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03] Today, we are going to head back inside the prison walls, but this time with a different perspective. We're going to be talking with a former Indiana correctional officer. We have verified his identity and his credentials, but he has asked that we withhold his name and his voice. We will call him James. We interviewed him about his experiences as a correctional officer and then had that conversation transcribed and edited.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_03] In a moment, we will read from that transcript. I'll read out the questions and Kevin will read James' answers. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is Going Behind Bars, a conversation with the former Indiana correctional officer.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_03] So to start off with, I'm curious, as somebody who has worked in corrections,

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_03] what are some of your thoughts about what you've been seeing in the Richard Allen case so far? Which, of course, deals with a lot of discussion about his treatment as, you know, an incarcerated individual at Westville.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02] I won't say that offender mistreatment doesn't happen. I'm sure that it does. What I will say in terms of this, and based off of my knowledge and background, I'm fairly positive that there was some communication, whether it was from the courts, whether it was from the Indiana State Police to the Indiana Department of Corrections, potentially as far up as like a commissioner level. But definitely to the warden level of like, hey, here's who's coming here. And we need them as safe as possible.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02] And in my opinion, Westville Facility and Warden Gallupo are going to know like how bad it would look for them if something terrible happened to Richard Allen. Or he was extremely mistreated. His attorneys were able to prove that they're going to do everything within their power to keep him safe, keep him secure. Sure. The communication would be going out to whoever works, whatever unit he's on. And I understand he's in like the Ag-Seg unit. I would tend to think he's pretty safe.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02] They're not going to let anything happen to him.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_03] And for folks who may not be familiar, what does Ag-Seg stand for?

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02] So that's an administrative segregation, which I don't know for sure that he's there. But that's what it sounds like to me, which is it's very similar to just segregation. It's just super secure. There aren't as many people typically on an Ag-Seg unit as there would be in a typical unit for officers to oversee. There would be much less people there on that unit. And it's, I mean, what you've already heard and said about his time where he gets dedicated to rec time.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02] And he, other than that, he's within that cell that entire time. It's more of just like a protective situation.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_03] And in terms of what we're seeing from him in terms of the alleged mental decline, is that something that can be common for folks in an incarceration setting? Or what have you seen in your experience in terms of the effect that that can have on one's mental health?

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02] Think about what it would be like to sit in a box for, let's say you're awake for eight hours. If you're in that box for seven hours of your day, which I can guarantee you, he's awake a lot longer than that. You know, there's just not much to think about. I mean, you're going to rethink everything every day. There's really not much new. I would think maybe he has access to books or something like that.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02] But there's just not much to do other than sit and think or work out. And so it can definitely play a role in causing some mental health issues, especially for someone who's never experienced it before. Most people, when they go to prison or even jail, they don't go directly into an administrative segregation or that secure of a unit. They go into like a general population unit. And so he hasn't even experienced that.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02] He's gone straight into administrative segregation. So guilty or not, thinking in terms of going from living your everyday life, getting up and going to work every day, to now all you see is three walls and a door for most of your day. You know, that's going to mess with anybody.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03] Obviously, I imagine every facility is different to a certain extent. And different experiences may vary for sure. But in your experience, do you have any sense about how a person who is accused of hurting kids would fare in prison?

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I know this has been brought up on previous episodes, like they're the worst of the worst. I mean, they have no value to any other offender. They are typically targeted and targeted repeatedly. And it's just, it's not safe for them. Typically, those guys tend to out themselves without even knowing they're doing it. So they're just trying to stay quiet and to themselves. And they don't want anybody around them. Don't want anybody messing with them.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02] They don't want anybody to know why they're in. You know, typically guys are talking about, oh, this is what I did. You know, this is how I got here. And, you know, not to mention that fact, in every facility that you have within the state, there's working programs in there. So there are offenders with jobs, you know, whether that's cleaning, whether that's cooking, whether that's whatever. And then you also have the officers who all talk. Not to mention there's access to TVs and news channels in there.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02] So everyone within Westville, I can guarantee you, knows he's there. And the mere fact that they've kept him safe this long, I think is really a good sign that points back to what I was saying earlier. That there was communication before he got there. They're like, hey, this is what's coming your way. Here's why. And we really need to keep him safe.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_03] I think I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you have any thoughts on what could happen or what the risks would be if he were to be put into general population at Westville or, say, just out in the county jail, say something small like Carroll County?

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it'd be impossible for him to be in Carroll County only because it's such a small area and everyone knows. But again, I think you're looking at a point where probably everyone within Westville knows that he's there when it comes to putting him in general population. You know, I think part of that would be up to him, too. Like, what's he going to put up with? How is he going to try to get along with others? And you know what?

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02] Every unit, I don't care where it is, where in the country it is, every unit has a leader, whether it's a gang leader or whether it's somebody that's been there for years and years and years. And everybody just tends to listen to them. That's who typically controls a unit. The prisoners do tend to control themselves in terms of like the officers can't control them. But, you know, not to equate, you know, men to children.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, it's just like most kids wake up every day and decide whether or not they're going to have a good day or a bad day, just like we do as adults. And so they decide whether or not they're going to have good days or bad days within a prison. You know, and sometimes it's decided for them by someone else, by another offender or a gang or something like that.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_03] That makes sense.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02] Alan would be targeted. But a lot of it goes to what he's willing to do to try to get along with others.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_03] But even if he were to get some buy-in from one of the inmate leaders, it sounds like there could always be someone else gunning for him to make a statement because he's accused of murdering kids.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, yeah, for sure. Because if you go with the mentality of someone in prison, you know, what we as society tend to think of people in prison as the worst of the worst. And I'm not saying that's not true. Typically, people in prison have committed some pretty heinous crimes. Sometimes they haven't. What I will say is that no matter what, once they're inside those walls, children and women are held in the highest regard as to, like, you should not touch them.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02] That should not be while you're in prison. Not because you've hurt or abused or murdered a child or a woman. But people have done that or just looked at differently.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_03] That makes sense in the hierarchy of inmates. It's so interesting because one thing that's come out of some of the filings around Richard Allen's case is that there are claims being made that other inmates are saying things to him like he should commit suicide or comments about him being a child killer. And in your experience, does that sound realistic in an MCU kind of max control unit? And is there any way to do anything about that?

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_03] I can understand how correctional officers could prevent harm, physical harm. But it seems like it'd be very hard to control what other inmates are just saying.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02] You're not going to change that. It's just the way it is. It's just like, you know, and I like, I hate to put it like this. But if you, Anya, walked into a prison unit, you would get catcalled repeatedly or whistled at or something. It's just, it's just the way it is. And especially in adult facilities.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03] You're not going to be able to police language. It doesn't sound like.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Right. And, you know, I hope I'm not jumping ahead. But I saw the pictures that came out of Richard Allen and his quote unquote mental decline, according to his attorneys. And, you know, weight loss and stuff like that. So one thing that hasn't been hit on on the podcast is almost everyone that goes to prison experiences weight loss. And part of the reason for that is it's just what's referred to as the DOC diet.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02] You are not eating McDonald's and Wendy's and Burger King anymore. You're not even eating a great home cooked meal. You're eating food that is typically not that great. You know, every facility tries to do something, you know, better for them around the holidays where they may fix like a nicer meal. But that food is not good. It does not smell good. It does not look good. It's just, you know, so he may not have eaten much for the first couple of weeks that he was there.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02] Just because it was such a shock to his system. And so weight loss does not surprise me at all. Which would definitely, you know, it helps him in a way when those pictures are taken. Because his skin looks saggy and he looks like he's lost a lot of weight. Well, that's part of that diet. Like you just don't eat as much. And I'm sure maybe he has access to commissary. But, you know, even that stuff, you know, they all enjoy it.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02] They all like it. But it's not like going to Kroger or Walmart and picking up, you know, chips Ahoy or something like that. It's just snacks. So part of that diet has a lot to do with how he looks right now.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03] That makes a lot of sense. It's not like a nefarious plan to have him starved. It could just be a very hard transition for a person to make. One thing I was curious to get from your perspective is another thing the defense attorneys have complained about was essentially that they weren't being allowed to bring in laptops or computers or cell phones. And that there was a lot of security process to go through to get into where he is at Westville. In your experience, what can some of those security protocols be?

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03] And why might those be in place in a way that even inconveniences the defense attorneys?

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I've never been to Westville. And so I can't speak too much to that. What I can say is that typically where I worked, there was like an approval status for people to come in. So first, general visitors have to go through an approval process to be able to come and visit. But then I would add to that that like if anybody typically wanted to bring anything in, they had to get approval for that item.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02] Now, I don't know what that looks like on the status of a lawyer, only because I didn't deal with that very often where I was. But I would think as long as they're going to go through the right channels to get approved to bring in whatever they need to bring in, because you can't just bring anything into a prison. Everything is going to be looked at and gone through by those staff members. And so if it's not on a list of approved items, the staff is going to say, no, you can't bring that in.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02] And I don't know for sure if that's the kind of situation they're working off of that. That's what I would think. But, you know, I can't guarantee that.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_03] One thing I was going to ask you is just how unusual is it for a person to be detained at a prison pretrial without having been convicted first? Obviously, as we mentioned, Richard Allen's case is pretty singular in the way that it's different from a lot of other cases. Because it's so high profile. In your experience, is that a strange thing for someone like him to be incarcerated in Westville?

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, 100%. I've never heard of anything like that. And actually, my first thought when I heard that was, why wasn't he just taken to another facility, like a local jail, where they could have, you know, why didn't they take him to Lafayette? They probably have a bigger jail. They probably have a segregation unit where he could have been. And he wouldn't have been super far away from family if they wanted to visit him or his lawyers, you know? I mean, I know that's still a trip, but it's not like going all the way up to Westville.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02] There had to be something else at play there. They had to think, well, we can't keep him safe anywhere but Westville, which is where that administrative segregation unit is. So, within Indiana, there are a handful of prisons, and I can't remember all of them anymore. There's also what is called RDC, which is Reception Diagnostic Center. So, when you first get your sentence from court, the county then takes you to that RDC, and that's where the classification is done.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02] That's when they figure out where they want to send you, and then they send you on to that facility. So, that process didn't even happen here. You just went straight to Westville. And having that occur, going straight to prison without going to RDC, that's just unheard of to me.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_03] Your comments on keeping him safe transition nicely into my next question, which concerns Suicide Watch. So, obviously, keeping him safe from other inmates is incredibly important. But then you get into the issue of keeping him safe from himself. What considerations go into that in an incarceration setting, in your experience, and how can that look?

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So, typically, as soon as the word suicide is mentioned, that information goes up the ladder from an officer to a sergeant to a lieutenant or captain. And then a mental health professional is brought in, and if it's at a point where there's not a high enough person there, like say it happens on a weekend or something, then that person would go on that watch until someone's back, like on a Monday, to do an evaluation.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02] At the facility I worked at, officers would do that watch. But I've heard, and you can tell me if I've misunderstood this, but have there been inmates doing Richard Allen's watch? Is that what I've understood from listening to your episodes?

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. So, our understanding from talking with people, and also from attending the most recent hearing, is that there were inmate companions who would participate in the suicide watch at Westville. They were not supposed to talk with him, they were just supposed to watch him. And then at a certain point, that was discontinued, and officers were assigned to his suicide watch.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02] Well, where I worked, officers did all of it. And I would think that's the safer route to go. Because, you know, like we talked about earlier, you're not going to prevent that speech going out to someone. And so, as soon as word got out that that's who was there, I'm sure those conversations were taking place of, you know, maybe you should kill yourself. Which would then probably hurt his mental status. But it doesn't surprise me at all that it is now all officers.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02] But I'll tell you this. If I was that officer that got assigned to that post, I would dread it every day. Because it is super boring. It's a little bit... Well, let me tell you a little bit about how a correctional schedule works. Officers work 12-hour shifts. They're either 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. or 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. And then sometimes you even get forced into overtime, which adds 4 hours to your shift.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02] So you're going from a 12-hour shift to a 16-hour shift. And those watches are not fun. They are the most boring shift. You sit right there face-to-face with somebody. Well, maybe not face-to-face. But you are looking at them the entire time. And it is, well, I just dread that for anyone that has to do it.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_03] Not to be flippant, but it sounds almost like a really boring and depressing one-on-one lifeguarding experience. Except you're not on a beach.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. And the beach would make it much nicer.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, at least you get a tan that way. This sounds really grueling. And do the inmates typically talk with the person on the watch? Or are you not supposed to talk to them at all?

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02] Well, it depends on the inmate. Some of them want to talk. Some of them become more chatty. Some of them just need that time to decompress. And then inside a prison, there are other things to think about too. Like, you know, someone may say, hey, I'm feeling suicidal. And that could be just to get off of their unit because they know something's going to happen to them. Or it could be because that's really how they feel. But the state can't take any chance on that.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02] If someone says that you have to pull them off of that unit and put them into that segregation unit and put them under suicide watch. Because if that person ends up committing suicide and it comes out, the state was aware of that possibility before it happened. Well, that's just bad news for the state. I mean, that's lawsuits all day long.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03] That makes a lot of sense. We like to automate things here at The Murder Sheet. We get all kinds of alerts about our episodes. We schedule emails in advance. We set reminders for ourselves to do interviews, lest we accidentally ghost a detective or a defense attorney. Automation makes life easier because it's one less thing to have to think about. That's why we love Acorns. This is an automatic investment service that's built to help everyone invest, no matter how much money you have.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02] You've heard us speak about our sponsor, Acorns, before. Today's episode is sponsored by them. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns were a recommended diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03] I just wish we had had an app like Acorns back when we were just starting out. It would have saved us so much money-related time and stress because it's really a no-brainer. All it takes is $5 or even just your spare change. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_03] Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. One thing I was curious about, and I imagine it could be different depending on the inmate and depending on the corrections officer, and maybe even the facility. But what do the relationships between inmates and officers look like? Is this a situation where there's often attempts to build rapport? Is it usually hostile? Or does it just depend?

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I'm really glad you asked me that because I was trying to figure out how I was going to tell you about officers within this interview, but not just do it myself. So I'm glad you asked this. So there are four to five different types of officers when it comes to working in a correctional facility. There are the ones that were born to do this kind of work. They probably could have gone into police work, but they just enjoyed the atmosphere that they're in. And they're good at it.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02] They're good at building rapport. They're good at controlling a unit to an extent. And inmates respect them. That goes a long way. And then you have the officers who are scared out of their minds and should have never even applied for this job, let alone stayed there as long as they have. Those officers tend to get other officers hurt. I'm sure you've heard of like fight, flight, or freeze.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02] Those officers are the ones that freeze. And while something's going on, they just stare. And that can get someone hurt really badly, whether it's an inmate or another officer. And then you have the officers who might be a little bit of both, who are there for the right reasons. But maybe they've done all their training, but they're just scared to actually do something. But they want the best for everyone within the facility.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02] Then you have the officers who 100% could be dirty, could be not doing the right things. I mean, there are plenty of stories about officers who brought drugs into a facility for inmates. Or who have had physical relationships with inmates while they're in a facility. And that could be officers. It's been nurses. It's been just about anyone within a facility you can think of. And inmates are really smart about who and how they target people.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02] Whether it's getting someone to bring drugs in from the outside or having a physical relationship. They tend to target officers who are more, I would say, somebody that they can be like, Oh, you look so great today. Is your husband treating you right? Like, they just try to get into your personal life. Like, I remember, and I will never forget this. And I just happened to forget to put my wedding ring on one day. And I had an offender come up to me and was like, Are you okay? You're not wearing your wedding ring.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02] Is everything all right at home? And I was just like, Get out of here. Go back to doing whatever it was you were doing. Leave me alone with that. Jesus. And so, you know, we have to remember, as just everyday citizens, These guys have all day to think about mind games they could play. How they could do certain things. How they could get away with certain things. They're paying attention to the stuff that we would never in a million years pay attention to.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02] And that's just kind of the way it is. So, well, I don't know if I answered your question.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03] You did, very clearly. And I love the different categories that can kind of come out of different correctional officers.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And you know, a team is what makes or breaks a facility. There's always going to be bad apples on every team. But for the most part, if those officers are just trying to go in and do the right thing, then everything is going to run smoothly.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like you're talking about the inmates and the different correctional officers with a lot of empathy. How do you maintain that, especially for the inmates, some of whom have done pretty horrible things? How do you balance that empathy with maintaining a sense of order?

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02] For me, it's trying to remember that people are people. Like, I know that they've done terrible things and that they're where they are for a reason, right? But the thing to remember is that prison is supposed to be rehabilitative. And not just, you know, let's throw them away for the next 25 years and hope they come out better on the other end. It's supposed to be a rehabilitation project. And people are supposed to come out better than the person they were when they went in.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_02] And so if we're not giving people that opportunity, then we're doing ourself a disservice. And you're looking at having that person come right back inside those walls within a maximum of five years.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_03] Well said. Before we started recording, you mentioned something really interesting, which is that even law enforcement officers who are used to dealing with criminals end up feeling really uncomfortable when they go to prison. Can you speak more to that phenomenon? And then get into perhaps what you have to get used to as a correctional officer and what kinds of things seem normal to you but would be really weird for everyday civilians?

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02] So think in terms of a police officer. That's someone who every day is out there probably in a patrol car with their service weapon and probably some sort of weapon within their car, whether it's a shotgun or an assault rifle. And that's their quote unquote security blanket. Within a facility, you don't have that. Most facilities only allow a pepper spray for officers to carry around during the day.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02] And really any item at all that you would think of as just an ordinary item, like even a styrofoam cup, you throw that away. If I want to imprison, I can turn even that into a weapon. Because once you heat styrofoam up to the point where it melts, you can form it into a stabbing device. And it is rock solid after that. So again, that goes to that point I was talking about earlier, where an offender has all day to think about everything.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02] They're pretty good scientists too. I mean, they figured out ways to come up with weapons that we wouldn't even think of. We've seen something on TV where it's like a piece of metal wrapped around a rock or something. Yeah, that may happen. But they can get pretty creative too on how they can manufacture their own weapons or taking an ink pen and turning it into a tattoo gun. I mean, people come out of prison typically with more tattoos than they had when they went in.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02] So somebody inside figured out how to do that. And they can hide stuff in a cell better than a toddler can hide anything from a parent. And it's just, prison is just not the safest environment for staff, for offenders. We as a society tend to think of like, oh, these big cities, oh, it's dangerous. But walk into a correctional facility where you have no weapons. You have a pair of handcuffs and maybe some pepper spray.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe some facilities allow you to allow certain officers to have tasers. But other than that, it's everything you can do to keep yourself safe. And I think that's why you see, especially in adult facilities, so many officers wearing protective vests so that they can't be stabbed. Because that's a real threat.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_03] What are some misconceptions that the public or true crime media have about facilities or about being a corrections officer or being an inmate?

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I can't speak to the inmate side very much just because I've never been one. But I know it's hard. Harder than anyone could imagine. Now, as to correctional officers, they don't work a typical schedule. They don't get off at 4 o'clock. You know, one of the big selling points for the Indiana Department of Corrections is telling new hires like, well, hey, you only have to work half the year. All right, well, that's true, but it doesn't feel like it, right? So you work.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02] Like, say, let's start on a Monday. So you work Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday, you're off Wednesday, Thursday. Then you work Friday, Saturday, Sunday the next week. You work the complete opposite of that. So you only work Wednesday, Thursday. And then you're off the rest of those days that week. So that is kind of nice. But for an officer, it takes away a lot of time with your family. A lot of time with your kids. And, well, prison's just a different world.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02] There's something to be said about, you know, the clicking of the gate when you walk into a facility. Like, you are in there. And it is just a different world. You deal with a lot of different people. You could have a conversation with an inmate one day. And you feel like you've really gotten somewhere with them. You've helped them understand why things are the way they are on your unit or within the facility. And you come back to Mara, and he's a completely different person. He's ready to fight people.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02] And you're just like, where did that go? What happened? Now, one thing I will say is that for inmates, none of them will ever admit it. But when they first get there, they're all pretty scared too. Unless they've been there before and they know how it's going to work. Then maybe they still have friends there. It's a culture shock otherwise. And it's a physical shock almost to just be in there. And so it's different. I've never experienced anything like it.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. One thing I was curious about is with the keeping everybody safe angle. To your knowledge, are most facilities monitored and have lots of cameras everywhere? What's the situation with that?

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02] So every facility is going to have cameras in it. Now, the thing to keep in mind about Westville is Westville is really, really old. And it may not have prime spots for cameras. I'm sure where Richard Allen is, they have a camera in this cell that they can see him. But then he's also got someone sitting right there. But that's also for his safety and that officer's safety. If he were to jump across the table that's dividing them and attack that officer,

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02] someone watching that camera should see that and be able to call for help. So here's the thing about cameras, though. And this kind of goes back to the safety thing that I've alluded to already. Those offenders have all day to think about everything. And one of the things that they're thinking about is just where exactly those cameras are pointing. Whether they move. Whether they don't move. It can be guaranteed that there's an area that they don't cover all the time.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02] So that's typically where if you want to hurt someone, that's where you do it. It'll be where the cameras can't see. Cameras are a great tool. But they just can't see everything. And I'll also say this. I don't know if you've ever seen a physical fight like in real life. But they're not quiet. You know, if you're seeing people fight at a Walmart, it's typically not quiet, right? But a fight within a prison is the quietest thing you've ever heard.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02] Only because they want to get it over. They want to deal with whatever they've got to get out of their system. And they don't want anyone to come and break it up. They don't want any officers coming. Because they know there's going to be consequences for their actions. So if they can handle it without anyone knowing, they will. So if you hear a lot of footsteps or quick footsteps that sound more like basketball than people walking, that's a good sign.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02] And there are things that officers look for, too, in terms of like typically a pair of shower slides that look like a sandal, maybe a pair of tennis shoes, and then like work boots. If it's not a work day and there's a lot of people wearing work boots, you're guaranteed there's going to be a problem that day. Or if shoes are laced up really tight, there's probably going to be a problem that day. So those are things to look for from an officer standpoint.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02] Of like, oh, okay, I just noticed there's probably going to be something that's going to happen today. But on the officer side of it, though, they also know where the cameras are. And I've worked with officers that knew how to make sure a camera couldn't see something that maybe they did something they shouldn't have been doing physically, like a fight or like sexually or something like that. There were officers that know all those things, too.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03] With Richard Allen, he was having this decline, and then he met with mental health professionals, and there was a decision that he did not need to be forcibly medicated or removed. So there seems to have been some sort of conclusion there. My question is, how can mental health care and health care in general work in a facility, in your experience? Is there a typical process?

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, every facility is going to have a team of mental health professionals that may be assigned to certain units, that may be assigned to the whole facility. They'll be coming around to meet with people. And especially now that that's been expressed with Richard Allen, I would imagine they're probably trying to meet with him regularly unless he's refusing to meet with them. But then there are other aspects, too. I would think, based off the little knowledge I have about Warden Gallupo,

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02] that he's probably checking in with him, too, as well as the higher-ranking correctional staff. But every facility also has a chaplain, and I would think that that person would have potentially reached out to him. So there are different resources in terms of physical health. Every facility has a recreation leader. But I don't know what that would look like in terms of, does the rec leader spend any time with people in administrative segregation? I could not answer that.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_03] You mentioned Westville and Warden John Gallupo. Just as somebody who worked in that space, what's your perception of Westville's reputation and also John Gallupo's reputation?

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02] Well, Westville, I don't think, has the greatest reputation in terms of, like, who's sent there. I mean, no matter where you go, there's bad people in prison. It's not a fun environment to be in. But I know Westville's not the easiest place to be in from what I've heard. Now, in terms of Warden Gallupo, so there was a Netflix docu-series a handful of years ago called Girls Incarcerated. And because it was set in Indiana, I was like, yeah, I want to check that show out.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02] And so, previous to Warden Gallupo being at Westville, he was the warden or superintendent of the juvenile girls facility that was in Madison, Indiana. They later relocated up north to a camp, and I think it was called Camp Summit. But, you know, I would have worked for Warden Gallupo, though I thought he was. He did a very great job of towing the line, of being supportive of his staff, holding them accountable, while then also being supportive of those young ladies that were spending their time within that facility.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_02] And I thought he did a really great job of that. The most important thing to the staff is that they feel supported and heard. And the most important thing to any inmate population is that they also feel supported and heard, and that their concerns are listened to. And they get feedback on that. And they get feedback on that. And I thought he did a great job of when he had to deliver bad news, he did a good job of explaining it and making sure that everyone was on the same page

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02] and that everyone understood. Yeah, in my time working in the Department of Corrections, I would 100% have worked for Warden Gallupo.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_03] Now, I have a stupid question for you. Are there any terms that we've been using wrong on the podcast as far as prisons go, in terms of referring to correction officers or inmates or anything like that? I just want to make sure we're not getting any jargon wrong.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02] No, I don't think so. I think the most important thing to keep in mind, well, I have this theory on language, that anytime anyone comes up with a new label for someone, it's always done in the most positive mind frame possible. But I had teachers in high school that were like, let's play the whisper game. I'll start it up here at the front end of the class. By the time it gets to the back of the class, I'll have a completely different meaning than what I said originally. And so, over the years, it's been like,

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02] I called them inmate or prisoner or offender. And I think now it's like incarcerated individual. But I don't think you're saying anything wrong when you say that. It's just the term of the day and how I view that. So, no, I think you guys have done a pretty great job of how you've tried to communicate this out to everybody.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, my gosh. Well, that means a lot. Thank you so much. We really appreciate that. And we also really appreciate hearing from folks like yourself who have worked in that space and are generous enough to share your experiences with us and kind of give us a sense of what that perspective is like.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And the one thing I would like to add is prison life is hard for an inmate or offender, whatever you want to call them. It's just as hard for any officer. It's hard for them to take that off when they go home. It's hard for them to put that on when they go into work. Correctional officers have one of the highest suicide rates in the United States. And it's not an easy job. It's not a happy place to go to. We may all go to an office on Monday

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02] and we're talking about what we did over the weekend. But we got to remember that these guys are going to a prison and no one there had a great weekend. And so along with that, there's burnout. I talked about earlier where offices can be forced into 16-hour shifts. You may have back-to-back days where you work 16-hour shifts. Maybe you volunteered for one. Maybe you didn't. But correctional officers are the forgotten officers of law enforcement.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02] Nine times out of ten, they do not get the love and appreciation they should. And I just want everyone to remember that it is not an easy job. It's not. You have a family. You have a second family that has your back 100% of the time. That was the main thing that I loved when I worked in corrections was I had another family. But that did not make the job any easier.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_03] We want to thank James for sharing his experience with us. If you have any experience with the Indiana Department of Correction, please reach out and we'd love to talk with you as well.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_03] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_03] I think I have, yeah.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00] And deservedly so.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_03] Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. It's not one of those things where you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a –

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_03] you're the guy who wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00] I do wash my clothes.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean –

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] You're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_03] But you don't really – You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_03] There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's quince.com slash msheet. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_03] VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_03] We really love working with them and they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this, like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00] Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_03] Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to VIA, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01] Spell the code.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_03] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_01] We love our sponsors.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_03] You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_03] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_03] View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.