Money, Fear and Truth: A Conversation with Westport Author James Comey

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[00:01:37] James Comey has had many roles over the course of his career.

[00:01:41] Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

[00:01:44] United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York.

[00:01:48] U.S. Deputy Attorney General.

[00:01:50] General Counselor for Lockheed Martin

[00:01:52] and Bridgewater Associates.

[00:01:54] More recently, he's added mystery thriller author to that list.

[00:01:59] Last year, we got to speak with him

[00:02:01] just as his first novel, Central Park West, was released.

[00:02:06] It introduced readers to federal prosecutor Nora Carlton

[00:02:10] who was working to convict organized crime figures

[00:02:12] in New York City.

[00:02:14] The book was a terrific read.

[00:02:16] Even though it was a fictional work,

[00:02:18] Comey packed it full of real-world details

[00:02:21] that could only come from someone

[00:02:23] who had himself actually prosecuted mobsters.

[00:02:26] Now, Comey and Nora are back.

[00:02:30] In his new book, Westport,

[00:02:32] Nora finds herself in some new situations.

[00:02:36] Not only is she now working in corporate law,

[00:02:39] but she's also suspected of the murder of a colleague.

[00:02:42] If she wants to get out of this,

[00:02:44] she's going to have to turn to some old friends for help.

[00:02:48] We really enjoyed the book

[00:02:50] and we're excited when James Comey agreed

[00:02:52] to come back and chat with us on our show again.

[00:02:54] In this conversation,

[00:02:56] we talk about the new book,

[00:02:58] corporate law,

[00:03:00] white-collar crimes,

[00:03:02] and the challenge of finding people

[00:03:04] who will tell you when you suck.

[00:03:06] My name is Anya Kane.

[00:03:08] I'm a journalist.

[00:03:10] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:03:12] I'm an attorney.

[00:03:14] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:16] We're a true crime podcast

[00:03:18] We're the murder sheet.

[00:03:20] And this is Money, Fear, and Truth.

[00:03:24] A conversation with Westport author James Comey.

[00:04:12] So to start out with,

[00:04:14] can you just, you've been on the show,

[00:04:16] I think the Murder Sheet listeners all know and love you,

[00:04:19] but can you go over your background again?

[00:04:21] I think people probably know you as the FBI director

[00:04:25] and certainly as a prosecutor,

[00:04:27] but we'd be also interested in learning

[00:04:29] about some of the inspiration

[00:04:31] behind your latest novel, Westport.

[00:04:33] And how your experience influenced that.

[00:04:36] Well, thank you. First of all, thank you for having me back.

[00:04:38] It's a thrill to be with both of you on The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:41] I spent most of my career

[00:04:43] as a federal prosecutor, as you said,

[00:04:45] in New York and Manhattan,

[00:04:47] then in Richmond, Virginia.

[00:04:49] Then after 9-11, out of the blue,

[00:04:51] the Department of Justice asked me

[00:04:53] to go back to Manhattan and be the chief federal prosecutor.

[00:04:55] Then I became a boss,

[00:04:57] excuse me, at the Department of Justice.

[00:04:59] I was the deputy attorney general

[00:05:01] and I left government in 2005

[00:05:03] after some big fights

[00:05:05] inside the Bush administration

[00:05:07] over torture and electronic surveillance

[00:05:10] of American citizens.

[00:05:12] And I thought I had burned all possible bridges

[00:05:14] and would never be coming back.

[00:05:16] And so I went and worked for five years

[00:05:18] as the general counsel,

[00:05:20] so the chief lawyer at Lockheed Martin,

[00:05:22] which was in the DC area.

[00:05:24] And then I was recruited to become

[00:05:26] general counsel at a big investment manager

[00:05:28] or hedge fund, huge hedge fund,

[00:05:30] the biggest, in Westport, Connecticut.

[00:05:32] And then I left there

[00:05:34] after three years to teach at Columbia

[00:05:36] and thought that's what I would do.

[00:05:38] I would be an academic.

[00:05:40] And then out of the blue, they asked me

[00:05:42] to come interview with President Obama

[00:05:44] for FBI director, and I'm sorry to say

[00:05:46] your listeners probably know the rest of that story.

[00:05:48] There you go.

[00:05:50] Absolutely.

[00:05:52] So your last novel, Central Park West,

[00:05:54] introduces us to Nora,

[00:05:56] who is in the US

[00:05:58] attorney's office

[00:06:00] in New York.

[00:06:02] And the sequel, Westport,

[00:06:04] follows up with where she

[00:06:06] sort of ends up next.

[00:06:08] And I was wondering, can you just tell us a bit

[00:06:10] in a nutshell, no spoilers,

[00:06:12] about Westport,

[00:06:14] this follow-up novel?

[00:06:16] Nora, who is the protagonist,

[00:06:18] leaves the US attorney's office,

[00:06:20] as you said, in Manhattan.

[00:06:22] It's a little bit inspired by my own

[00:06:24] chronology. Mine was different than hers,

[00:06:26] but she's better than I.

[00:06:28] She went from the US attorney's office

[00:06:30] directly to be the chief lawyer of the General

[00:06:32] Council at a big hedge fund,

[00:06:34] an investment manager in Westport, Connecticut.

[00:06:36] And she was burned out in

[00:06:38] New York and had been through difficult

[00:06:40] times that are captured in the first book.

[00:06:42] And so she saw this as an opportunity

[00:06:44] to do something different,

[00:06:46] to make a lot more money,

[00:06:48] and to maybe live in a place that didn't have some of the

[00:06:50] pressures of the

[00:06:52] urban environment. So she thought,

[00:06:54] I'm going to a safer, suburban

[00:06:56] environment to do a different kind of work.

[00:06:58] And then, without

[00:07:00] giving things away, life hits her fast.

[00:07:02] And the book

[00:07:04] opens, it's not a spoiler, the book opens

[00:07:06] with the murder of an executive

[00:07:08] from that hedge fund.

[00:07:10] And Nora, believe it or not, is

[00:07:12] identified as a suspect. And so she has to

[00:07:14] deal with that and get help from

[00:07:16] some of the characters readers came

[00:07:18] to know in the first book, especially Benny Dugan,

[00:07:20] the organized crime investigator,

[00:07:22] who comes to work with Nora and

[00:07:24] help her as she's a target of an

[00:07:26] investigation.

[00:07:28] As you mentioned, she's actually the target

[00:07:30] of the investigation here. So she's

[00:07:32] in a different role than she was

[00:07:34] in the first book. What made

[00:07:36] you decide to put her in that kind of

[00:07:38] a different role?

[00:07:40] I thought it would give the readers, through Nora's

[00:07:42] eyes, to see through

[00:07:44] the other end of the telescope.

[00:07:46] After my collision with the

[00:07:48] Trump administration, I was investigated many

[00:07:50] times. Thank goodness none of it

[00:07:52] resulted in any kind of

[00:07:54] charges. And they even audited me

[00:07:56] and I got a refund as a result of the audit.

[00:07:58] So I wanted

[00:08:00] to show a little bit of what it's like

[00:08:02] to be under that kind of microscope.

[00:08:04] And it gave me an opportunity to have

[00:08:06] Benny come and

[00:08:08] assist her in an environment very different

[00:08:10] than the one Benny is used to.

[00:08:12] Trying to find truth in a

[00:08:14] totally different environment.

[00:08:16] I thought that will be those two perspectives

[00:08:18] may be a lot of fun for readers in this

[00:08:20] whodunit.

[00:08:22] And then I'm just curious, when you conceived

[00:08:24] of Nora in this series,

[00:08:26] did you always think you would switch

[00:08:28] over to the sort of

[00:08:30] corporate law angle

[00:08:32] early on? What made you decide to

[00:08:34] leave the US Attorney's Office

[00:08:36] in this series?

[00:08:38] And I guess I'd be curious

[00:08:40] was that always the plan or

[00:08:42] did that something that kind of came to you

[00:08:44] as you were writing the first one?

[00:08:46] It was always the plan. And the plan

[00:08:48] is always My Amazing Spouses,

[00:08:50] Patrice

[00:08:52] Envisioned, and then my job

[00:08:54] was to execute on her vision,

[00:08:56] three books that were

[00:08:58] Nora books, so a trilogy set in the New York

[00:09:00] area. And loosely

[00:09:02] paralleling my

[00:09:04] chronology, she thought, and I agreed, it would

[00:09:06] be fun to take readers

[00:09:08] to a different environment, show them a different

[00:09:10] world, and do it in a slightly different

[00:09:12] style. This is more of a

[00:09:14] whodunit or

[00:09:16] sort of, I don't want to, these words coming

[00:09:18] out of my mouth make me cringe, Agatha Christie.

[00:09:20] But I am, although I noticed I'm next to

[00:09:22] Agatha Christie on many bookshelves, that is

[00:09:24] the only way in which I

[00:09:26] compare to Agatha Christie.

[00:09:28] But it would be fun to do that.

[00:09:30] And then in the third book,

[00:09:32] taking the readers back into Manhattan

[00:09:34] and want to show

[00:09:36] them what a domestic terrorism

[00:09:38] investigation looks like, and

[00:09:40] explore some of those themes which are pretty current

[00:09:42] in our country, unfortunately.

[00:09:44] I'm interested, as you

[00:09:46] say, the book obviously is not

[00:09:48] autobiographical, but it is

[00:09:50] there's some similar experiences

[00:09:52] there. Nora

[00:09:54] transitions into private corporate

[00:09:56] practice. You did that

[00:09:58] too. What is that transition

[00:10:00] like, going from doing criminal

[00:10:02] prosecutions, New York City,

[00:10:04] to corporate law?

[00:10:06] It's easy

[00:10:08] in some ways, and hard. It's easy in that

[00:10:10] they pay you a ton more dough.

[00:10:12] And it's hard

[00:10:14] because you lose

[00:10:16] the sense of mission,

[00:10:18] that your job is to try and do something

[00:10:20] good every morning. Your job instead is to represent

[00:10:22] a client to the best of your ability

[00:10:24] and give them good advice.

[00:10:26] But it's different than being a prosecutor.

[00:10:28] And the other thing that I remember being struck

[00:10:30] by is the sense of competition

[00:10:32] that you don't feel in

[00:10:34] the government. In my private sector jobs

[00:10:36] we would wake up every morning

[00:10:38] thinking, how are we beating our opponents?

[00:10:40] Our competitors? How

[00:10:42] are we better than Boeing or Northrop Grumman

[00:10:44] today? Or in the investment

[00:10:46] manager world, how are we beating the market

[00:10:48] in a way that others are not?

[00:10:50] And how do we keep our customers happy?

[00:10:52] That's a sense that, for reasons

[00:10:54] that make sense, isn't there in the

[00:10:56] government. And so the dough makes it

[00:10:58] easier. The act of

[00:11:00] the lack of a moral content to your

[00:11:02] mission makes it harder.

[00:11:04] And again, this is not about the place I

[00:11:06] worked, but I tried to capture

[00:11:08] some of that. And Nora struggles with that

[00:11:10] early on.

[00:11:12] Absolutely. One

[00:11:14] thing I was curious, on the flip side,

[00:11:16] how is it viewed in the

[00:11:18] government, in the US Attorney's Office, when

[00:11:20] someone is sort of departing to do something

[00:11:22] new, you know, go into corporate law,

[00:11:24] go into a new opportunity? Is there a sense of

[00:11:26] like, you're abandoning us? Or is

[00:11:28] it more of like, this is to be expected,

[00:11:30] go fly, spread your wings?

[00:11:32] It depends upon which US Attorney's Office

[00:11:34] you're in. They're all

[00:11:36] different. And the Southern

[00:11:38] District of New York and Manhattan, and then

[00:11:40] probably the Eastern District of New York

[00:11:42] and Brooklyn both have a culture where

[00:11:45] young people come close out

[00:11:47] of law school and work like crazy

[00:11:49] and then leave after

[00:11:51] it used to be they made you promise to stay

[00:11:53] three years because people might

[00:11:55] leave quicker than that. Now I would say

[00:11:57] the average tenure has gone up.

[00:11:59] But after five to ten years

[00:12:01] people ordinarily

[00:12:03] leave and go someplace. Now how your

[00:12:05] colleagues feel about it kind of depends on

[00:12:07] where you go. If you go to a

[00:12:09] boring general counsel

[00:12:11] job like I did, they don't

[00:12:13] see you as joining the enemy. If you go

[00:12:15] to a criminal defense job right away

[00:12:17] sometimes they're like, oh man

[00:12:19] you're changing the color of your uniform

[00:12:21] so quickly, how can you betray us?

[00:12:23] But in those two offices

[00:12:25] it's expected that people will leave.

[00:12:28] So how do you as attorney's offices of departure

[00:12:30] maybe strike them as

[00:12:32] stranger and draw more questions?

[00:12:35] One thing that I think makes your

[00:12:37] books so special is

[00:12:39] because they do reflect your personal

[00:12:41] experiences and

[00:12:43] the world you write about

[00:12:45] seems very real

[00:12:47] and lived in.

[00:12:49] And so I have

[00:12:51] a question that

[00:12:53] I think a lot of general readers

[00:12:55] have at least a basic understanding

[00:12:57] of what it's like to go on a

[00:12:59] corporate law office

[00:13:01] and maybe people in general

[00:13:03] don't have that kind

[00:13:05] of understanding about what it's like

[00:13:07] to go and

[00:13:09] put your suit on and go into a corporate law

[00:13:11] office. And you know you discuss that

[00:13:13] in the book, but I just wonder could you tell us

[00:13:15] what is a typical day

[00:13:17] like in the life of a

[00:13:19] corporate law attorney?

[00:13:21] You say put your suit on, but I guess in this case

[00:13:23] it would be more like flannel and jeans

[00:13:25] Well, at Lockheed Martin

[00:13:27] it was formal because I was right down the

[00:13:29] hall from the CEO so it was a suit

[00:13:31] environment.

[00:13:33] But when I went to the investment management

[00:13:35] space it was people were wearing

[00:13:37] t-shirts. I can remember my first day on the

[00:13:39] job, I didn't have

[00:13:41] any chairs in my office, just bean

[00:13:43] bags. And I'm 6'8

[00:13:45] and so it's a hilarious thing

[00:13:47] to watch this giraffe try and get

[00:13:49] up and down from a bean bag. And I remember

[00:13:51] the guy in the office next to mine came

[00:13:53] in and he was wearing flip-flops,

[00:13:55] no socks, so bare feet on flip-flops,

[00:13:57] tattered jeans and like a purple

[00:13:59] rock band t-shirt

[00:14:01] and he just came in. He was probably

[00:14:03] 24 and the goal of

[00:14:05] this particular employer was to eliminate

[00:14:07] hierarchy and I try and capture themes like that

[00:14:09] although it's different in the book.

[00:14:11] And so he just calling me dude

[00:14:13] and talking to me

[00:14:15] about and sitting on the bean bag chair

[00:14:17] so it was a big adjustment for a

[00:14:19] stiff like myself.

[00:14:21] The work is very similar

[00:14:23] in that as the general counsel your job

[00:14:25] is to manage

[00:14:27] litigation that the company's involved

[00:14:29] in. So hire outside lawyers,

[00:14:31] make sure that your lawyers

[00:14:33] are serving their clients. You

[00:14:35] typically have lawyers who are associated

[00:14:37] with different parts of the business so someone

[00:14:39] working with HR, someone working with

[00:14:41] a production operation of the business

[00:14:43] make sure that they're doing what they need

[00:14:45] and then the biggest role for the

[00:14:47] general counsel is to be the advisor for the

[00:14:49] leadership of the company and

[00:14:51] that was to me the coolest

[00:14:53] part of the job. You got to sit with the

[00:14:55] company, both companies I worked at

[00:14:57] and think about and talk about strategy

[00:14:59] and give your both your best

[00:15:01] advice as a lawyer

[00:15:03] and sometimes be asked to give your best advice

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[00:17:50] I was curious, you know, one thing

[00:17:52] about SagaTuck, I'm saying

[00:17:54] that right? Yeah.

[00:17:56] That the firm

[00:17:58] in the book really does seem to try

[00:18:00] to put a high value on truth

[00:18:02] and anti-hierarchical

[00:18:04] measures and do

[00:18:06] away with some of those hierarchies

[00:18:08] of money, power,

[00:18:10] race, gender.

[00:18:12] But I mean the book does make it clear that

[00:18:14] in a corporate culture that can be much easier

[00:18:16] said than done. And

[00:18:18] I guess like in your view

[00:18:20] in, you know, because that's such a theme

[00:18:22] in the book, is that possible

[00:18:24] in this modern world and

[00:18:26] corporations? And is it even

[00:18:28] responsible or

[00:18:30] honest to try to act

[00:18:32] like it is?

[00:18:34] That's a great question.

[00:18:36] It's something I've been obsessed

[00:18:38] with my whole career, including at the FBI.

[00:18:40] How do you create an environment

[00:18:42] where people will tell the truth to each

[00:18:44] other, especially

[00:18:46] to their leaders? Especially when it's

[00:18:48] their leaders who are wrong about something

[00:18:50] or misunderstanding something. As a boss,

[00:18:52] how do you know that your people are telling you

[00:18:54] what's really going on? And so

[00:18:56] it can never be perfect because

[00:18:58] humans are never perfect. They're always

[00:19:00] governed by some fear or some

[00:19:02] set of biases, whether they acknowledge

[00:19:04] them or not. So there's always hierarchy.

[00:19:06] I used to tease people

[00:19:08] who were from Silicon Valley

[00:19:10] startups telling me, you know, we're all equal here.

[00:19:12] And I would say, no, you're not.

[00:19:14] I don't care that everyone's

[00:19:16] wearing hoodies and eating trail mix

[00:19:18] and drawing on a whiteboard.

[00:19:20] If there's someone in that room

[00:19:22] who owns a larger share of the company than

[00:19:24] someone else, the floor tilts up towards

[00:19:26] that person. There's always some form

[00:19:28] of hierarchy. And then obviously you mentioned some of the

[00:19:30] normal forms of hierarchy.

[00:19:32] But it is possible

[00:19:34] to create environments

[00:19:36] where you're more likely to hear the truth,

[00:19:38] where you've flattened the

[00:19:40] floor more than it might otherwise

[00:19:42] be. And how to do that, how to build

[00:19:44] that kind of culture

[00:19:46] is the central challenge

[00:19:48] and central question for a

[00:19:50] leader. It's harder and

[00:19:52] harder the larger

[00:19:54] and older an organization is

[00:19:56] because culture

[00:19:58] are the unspoken assumptions

[00:20:00] of a workplace that

[00:20:02] they're down in the basement

[00:20:04] and no one acknowledges them or talks about

[00:20:06] them, but it's sort of the way things are really done

[00:20:08] no matter what they tell you in training.

[00:20:10] And the older an organization is, the more

[00:20:12] there is in the basement,

[00:20:14] the more cultural understandings

[00:20:16] there are that no one can confront

[00:20:18] and the

[00:20:20] harder it is to build that kind of environment.

[00:20:22] That was my challenge at the FBI.

[00:20:24] It's an organization devoted to finding

[00:20:26] the truth, but I can remember

[00:20:28] Bob Mueller saying to me when we were transitioning,

[00:20:30] he said, I'm going to have you be briefed by

[00:20:32] all the leaders of the divisions.

[00:20:34] I said, terrific. He said,

[00:20:36] I'll have you meet one-on-one with them without me.

[00:20:38] I said, that's perfect. And then he said,

[00:20:40] after the meetings, I'll tell you what's

[00:20:42] really going on. And my

[00:20:44] reaction was, what the hell, Bob?

[00:20:46] You mean these

[00:20:48] people are going to lie to me?

[00:20:50] And I didn't say that because I wasn't sure

[00:20:52] what he meant, but I think what he meant was

[00:20:54] people are going to lie

[00:20:56] to you, but they're not going to volunteer

[00:20:58] warts and weaknesses and failings.

[00:21:00] You have to find a way to build

[00:21:02] an environment where people will tell you the truth.

[00:21:04] And so I explore that in this

[00:21:06] book. You see it

[00:21:08] in my real-world experience,

[00:21:10] the smaller, more entrepreneurial

[00:21:12] environments like, even though it's

[00:21:14] a big hedge fund, a hedge fund with only hundreds

[00:21:16] of employees or a Silicon Valley company

[00:21:18] with only hundreds of employees has a better

[00:21:20] shot at building

[00:21:22] that environment. But

[00:21:24] given the way people are,

[00:21:26] it will never be perfect. There will always

[00:21:28] be secrets.

[00:21:30] Yeah, I think you, without giving away any spoilers,

[00:21:32] you definitely are

[00:21:34] adept at kind of

[00:21:36] delving into some of those human failings

[00:21:38] within this kind of titular firm

[00:21:40] that you can certainly commit to

[00:21:42] transparency, but when it comes to people's

[00:21:44] lives,

[00:21:46] there's ways to get around that, I guess.

[00:21:48] And I was just curious,

[00:21:50] as far as

[00:21:52] your time with the FBI,

[00:21:54] what were some of those other basement

[00:21:56] level cultural things

[00:21:58] that you sort of uncovered while

[00:22:00] working there?

[00:22:02] It's such an old organization.

[00:22:04] It's such a storied organization.

[00:22:06] Imagine if it's an organization that

[00:22:08] kind of has those cultural things that can

[00:22:10] be very static.

[00:22:12] I was just curious, were there any other ones that you sort of ran up against?

[00:22:14] Oh yeah, quite a few.

[00:22:16] But the most prominent were

[00:22:18] it's a fear-based culture

[00:22:20] born of the

[00:22:22] first 50 years of its life.

[00:22:24] When J. Edgar Hoover would fire

[00:22:26] people on a whim and that

[00:22:28] your goal to be successful

[00:22:30] in the FBI was to do your work and not let the

[00:22:32] director find out what you're doing

[00:22:34] and if you made a mistake, keep that

[00:22:36] from the director because it could cost you your job.

[00:22:38] Well, Hoover's been gone for

[00:22:40] 50 years, but that sense is

[00:22:42] still there

[00:22:44] and closely related, which is one of the

[00:22:46] reasons that the Anonymous Climate Survey was so

[00:22:48] important to me as a leader at the FBI

[00:22:50] because I had the best chance of having

[00:22:52] people tell me things

[00:22:54] and I read hundreds of them.

[00:22:56] The other thing that's closely related is

[00:22:58] the FBI is a face

[00:23:00] culture, almost like

[00:23:02] some traditional Eastern

[00:23:04] ethnic cultures.

[00:23:06] That is what I mean by face culture

[00:23:08] is the bravest sin you could commit

[00:23:10] in the FBI is to contradict

[00:23:12] one of your colleagues

[00:23:14] in front of the director.

[00:23:16] So imagine

[00:23:18] you're the director and you start to notice

[00:23:20] that people

[00:23:22] don't want to embarrass other people in front of the

[00:23:24] director. They'll

[00:23:26] tell them privately that they made a mistake

[00:23:28] and then the person will come back in and correct

[00:23:30] it, ideally. And so I had

[00:23:32] to build around that face culture

[00:23:34] both by trying to get people to be more

[00:23:36] comfortable with me and by things

[00:23:38] like I would always have my chief of staff sit

[00:23:40] at the other end of the room from me

[00:23:42] so that he could watch

[00:23:44] people's body language

[00:23:46] and then I would always have him after a group

[00:23:48] meeting follow everybody out in the hall

[00:23:50] and basically do surveillance.

[00:23:52] Listen, talk to people. So what

[00:23:54] didn't they tell the director? What went

[00:23:56] wrong in that meeting that nobody wanted to fix

[00:23:58] in front of the director?

[00:24:00] That's both terrifying

[00:24:02] in a way and given that it's a

[00:24:04] reality, it's really important for the leader

[00:24:06] to figure out how

[00:24:08] I can change that kind of culture

[00:24:11] at the margins, but it's

[00:24:13] by the time I became FBI director that

[00:24:15] culture is 80 years old.

[00:24:17] And so how

[00:24:19] I really would be overconfident

[00:24:21] to say I'm going to change this in my

[00:24:23] I was there four years, but even if I were there ten

[00:24:25] years that I could change it in that period of time.

[00:24:27] So I need to try to change it and

[00:24:29] then build around it to

[00:24:31] maximize my chances of hearing the truth.

[00:24:33] I'm

[00:24:35] curious, listening to you, it really seems to

[00:24:37] me that a lot of your career has been spent

[00:24:39] basically trying to figure people

[00:24:41] out or how to reach people,

[00:24:43] whether it's you're investigating a crime or

[00:24:45] trying to figure out a way to make

[00:24:47] a jury respond and

[00:24:49] understand the information or how to get

[00:24:51] people who you are

[00:24:53] leading to be honest with you.

[00:24:55] What kind of

[00:24:57] insights did you come

[00:24:59] to in terms of writing a novel and

[00:25:01] trying to figure out how to reach

[00:25:03] people and grab people?

[00:25:05] I hope I'm

[00:25:07] doing it. It is to be

[00:25:09] real

[00:25:12] to show people and give them the sense

[00:25:14] as they're reading that they're reading

[00:25:16] how it really goes on even though

[00:25:18] the places are fictional

[00:25:20] that I'm giving people a sense that

[00:25:22] you can trust me because I'm

[00:25:24] going to show you what it's really like

[00:25:26] I try to build characters

[00:25:28] that I care deeply

[00:25:30] about so that the readers

[00:25:32] will care about them

[00:25:34] and I try to

[00:25:36] capture dialogue in a way

[00:25:38] that I can hear it in my head

[00:25:40] and so that people

[00:25:42] will be drawn into it, come to know these

[00:25:44] people when they watch Nora and Benny speak

[00:25:46] they'll feel the warmth

[00:25:48] and the playful tension between these

[00:25:50] people and so that's a way

[00:25:52] of drawing the readers

[00:25:54] in and showing them a world in the way

[00:25:56] that I really have experienced it and that I

[00:25:58] remember it. I'm not writing memoir

[00:26:00] here but I'm trying to

[00:26:02] capture a real sense of

[00:26:04] zeitgeist of

[00:26:06] places I've been, industries I've been in

[00:26:08] and the kind of work that I've done

[00:26:10] One kind of

[00:26:12] story type that I always really like

[00:26:14] and I think this is part of the reason why I really like

[00:26:16] your books is the idea of

[00:26:18] characters I like

[00:26:20] working together who are smart

[00:26:22] trying to figure something out together often

[00:26:24] if it's a murder mystery even better

[00:26:26] and I think that kind of is

[00:26:28] captured in this book but also your

[00:26:30] previous books there's often a real sense of

[00:26:32] found family and community

[00:26:34] of people coming together

[00:26:36] to figure something out

[00:26:38] and you know

[00:26:40] in this novel it even

[00:26:42] goes into the corporate world of the

[00:26:44] Kibbutz theory of

[00:26:46] people coming together to be honest

[00:26:48] and do good work and obviously

[00:26:50] to the extent that the investment

[00:26:52] firm lives up to that is

[00:26:54] questionable but certainly to the extent

[00:26:56] which Nora and her friends

[00:26:58] Benny, Carmen are able to come

[00:27:00] together to help her in her time of need

[00:27:02] that seems to be sort of a theme

[00:27:04] in your work

[00:27:06] and I guess I was just wondering if we can sort of

[00:27:08] unpack that or kind of

[00:27:10] you know like has that been

[00:27:12] like your experience in the work

[00:27:14] that you've done where you kind of have to have that

[00:27:16] community and bring it to the forefront

[00:27:19] I think so

[00:27:20] I

[00:27:22] need to have

[00:27:24] fun in the

[00:27:26] work that I do. I need

[00:27:28] I guess your word is joy I guess

[00:27:30] and when I think about what

[00:27:32] made it fun, what brought me joy

[00:27:34] it was the people I was

[00:27:36] trying to do stuff with

[00:27:38] the interesting characters

[00:27:40] that with whom

[00:27:42] I kind of did battle

[00:27:44] and some of my fondest

[00:27:46] memories are

[00:27:48] whispering at council table in the middle

[00:27:50] of a difficult trial

[00:27:52] my trial partner passing me a funny

[00:27:54] post-it note

[00:27:56] trying to break the tension

[00:27:58] sitting and brainstorming hour after

[00:28:00] hour about how we're going to approach a particular

[00:28:02] witness or where the evidence

[00:28:04] might be that would help us unlock

[00:28:06] a particular subject

[00:28:08] and so it the work was

[00:28:10] wonderful I especially like the

[00:28:12] work trying to bring bad people

[00:28:14] to justice but I think most

[00:28:16] of what I loved about it was the people I got

[00:28:18] to work with

[00:28:20] and what they cared about

[00:28:22] you know I really

[00:28:24] learned a lot from my time in the investment

[00:28:26] management business but I left

[00:28:28] because it wasn't much

[00:28:30] fun that

[00:28:32] there wasn't enough laughter for me

[00:28:34] there wasn't enough

[00:28:36] and I didn't really love

[00:28:38] markets and investing and my

[00:28:40] life is not organized around money

[00:28:42] but I loved

[00:28:44] being with people and one of the

[00:28:46] challenges when I went to Columbia one of the challenges of

[00:28:48] being there was I was alone a lot

[00:28:50] I didn't have a partner

[00:28:52] I didn't have partners to bang ideas around

[00:28:54] with or to have fun

[00:28:56] with while doing the work

[00:28:58] and so I think

[00:29:00] you can hear me I'm thinking out loud

[00:29:02] here because I don't think I've answered this question before

[00:29:04] but it's you put your finger on something

[00:29:06] it's the partners

[00:29:08] the people I got a chance

[00:29:10] to do stuff with that made the work

[00:29:12] so fun

[00:29:14] So what's it like now because now you're no longer

[00:29:16] a part of an organization and you're writing

[00:29:18] these books by yourself

[00:29:21] although I know

[00:29:23] your wife is a key component

[00:29:25] It can be lonely

[00:29:27] and what's weird about me is I'm a bit

[00:29:29] of an introvert

[00:29:31] I really don't

[00:29:33] want to be a public figure

[00:29:35] I love being at home

[00:29:37] I love being in the woods

[00:29:39] but I also

[00:29:41] need

[00:29:43] I don't think this makes me less of an introvert I need those

[00:29:45] close relationships

[00:29:47] you two do this together I bet that's a

[00:29:49] source of joy for you

[00:29:51] thank goodness I have Patrice because

[00:29:53] I write and she gives me feedback

[00:29:55] and we can laugh she can give me

[00:29:57] brutal feedback that I have to laugh

[00:29:59] or I would cry

[00:30:01] I enjoy that and my kids

[00:30:03] are part of it too

[00:30:05] my children live relatively close

[00:30:07] to me and so

[00:30:09] they read what I write

[00:30:11] and talk to me about it and we have a really

[00:30:13] active group chat

[00:30:15] text chat and that's a ton of fun too

[00:30:17] and so I still get the interaction

[00:30:19] it's a little different and like I said

[00:30:21] if I'm telling the truth which I'm trying to

[00:30:23] I would admit yeah sometimes it's lonely

[00:30:25] and I miss

[00:30:27] I'm not enough of an introvert that I

[00:30:29] want to live the isolated life of a

[00:30:31] lawyer, I mean of a writer

[00:30:33] and so I do, thank goodness I'm

[00:30:35] married I hope she sticks with me

[00:30:37] and I have the kids to interact

[00:30:39] with

[00:30:41] One thing I was

[00:30:43] curious, I'm sure you can't get into many details

[00:30:45] and we totally understand

[00:30:47] client confidentiality must come first

[00:30:49] but we were wondering if you had any crazy

[00:30:51] experiences that you could share

[00:30:53] from your time being a lawyer

[00:30:55] in the corporate world

[00:30:57] I'm sure you were never framed for murder

[00:30:59] I was never, there were no murders

[00:31:01] at either of the companies that I worked

[00:31:03] at

[00:31:05] I can actually, I'll tell you what

[00:31:07] my first experiences in the private sector

[00:31:09] that I still remember like it was yesterday

[00:31:11] I

[00:31:13] I knew nothing about the aerospace business

[00:31:15] came out of the Justice Department

[00:31:17] and the CEO who hired me

[00:31:19] who's a wonderful person and I admire

[00:31:21] very much said look you need

[00:31:23] to learn the business

[00:31:25] I said ok I've been reading a lot, doing whatever I can

[00:31:27] he said look grab a plane

[00:31:29] and

[00:31:31] go all around the country and see the work

[00:31:33] I'm like grab a plane

[00:31:35] what does he mean by that

[00:31:37] and so I told my executive

[00:31:39] assistant look I'm gonna

[00:31:41] in the next few weeks I need to travel

[00:31:43] a lot and let me start with

[00:31:45] and I remember, it's funny because you and I

[00:31:47] both went to William & Mary

[00:31:49] but the speeches in that story

[00:31:51] there was a facility, the first one I was gonna go visit

[00:31:53] was down in the peninsula area

[00:31:55] of Virginia and I said

[00:31:57] well I'll either

[00:31:59] drive, because it was in the DC area

[00:32:01] or I can fly to Norfolk

[00:32:03] and then rent a car

[00:32:05] and I'm telling her this and she looks at me

[00:32:07] and she says

[00:32:09] we're in the airplane business

[00:32:11] you're gonna fly on a company plane

[00:32:13] I said oh

[00:32:15] ok and so I go out

[00:32:17] to Dulles for the private air terminal

[00:32:19] and I get on the company plane

[00:32:21] I'm the only one on the plane

[00:32:23] except as a steward so it was very awkward

[00:32:25] because I was supposed to, should I ask him

[00:32:27] to do something I don't know

[00:32:29] and so the plane, the tiny flight

[00:32:31] it lands at the airport right by Williamsburg

[00:32:33] between Williamsburg and Newport News

[00:32:35] and I come down

[00:32:37] and somebody opens the stairs

[00:32:39] and I come down the stairs and there's a literal

[00:32:41] red carpet at the bottom of the stairs

[00:32:43] and a black town car

[00:32:45] and there's a man standing

[00:32:47] next to the town car holding a cup

[00:32:49] of Starbucks coffee

[00:32:51] and he says just a little cream

[00:32:53] is that right Mr. Comey

[00:32:55] and I said yes it is

[00:32:57] and I

[00:32:59] started to go get in the passenger seat

[00:33:01] in the front seat

[00:33:03] and he said no sir you ride in the back

[00:33:05] so I go get in the back

[00:33:07] and I remember texting my family like

[00:33:09] I'm not in Kansas anymore

[00:33:11] wow

[00:33:13] I flew to Williamsburg from Washington

[00:33:15] and there's a guy giving me coffee

[00:33:17] so that, I felt

[00:33:19] like an imposter, still feel like an

[00:33:21] imposter when I think about those times

[00:33:23] that adjustment to the way

[00:33:25] that senior corporate executives

[00:33:27] live and travel

[00:33:29] in the United States was strange

[00:33:31] to me and again

[00:33:33] I felt like a tourist

[00:33:35] and then the rest of none of it

[00:33:37] is as exciting as my work in the

[00:33:39] private sector, I mean in the

[00:33:41] public sector, obviously as a

[00:33:43] lawyer you deal with in a company

[00:33:45] your most exciting things are HR

[00:33:47] believe it or not all the

[00:33:49] failings and crazy things that human

[00:33:51] beings do but I can't tell you any of that

[00:33:53] no, don't get in trouble

[00:33:55] no that's so funny, didn't make you

[00:33:57] take the Amtrak down from DC

[00:33:59] I was gonna drive my own car

[00:34:01] down from DC, I mean why wouldn't I

[00:34:03] crazy

[00:34:31] That's not just the sound of that first sip of morning Joe

[00:34:33] It's the sound of someone shopping for a car on Carvana

[00:34:35] from the comfort of home

[00:34:37] That's a good blend

[00:34:39] It's time to take it easy

[00:34:41] like answering some easy questions to get pre-qualified

[00:34:43] for a car in minutes

[00:34:45] Talk about starting the morning right

[00:34:47] Just like customizing your terms so your car fits your budget

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[00:34:59] download the app to experience car shopping the way it should be

[00:35:01] convenient, comfortable

[00:35:03] ahhh

[00:35:05] Ok

[00:35:07] picture this, it's Friday afternoon

[00:35:09] when a thought hits you

[00:35:11] I can spend another weekend doing the same

[00:35:13] old whatever or I can hop into

[00:35:15] my all new Hyundai Santa Fe and

[00:35:17] hit the road. With available

[00:35:19] H-track all wheel drive and three row seating

[00:35:21] my whole family can head deep

[00:35:23] into the wild, conquer the weekend

[00:35:25] in the all new Hyundai Santa Fe

[00:35:27] Visit HyundaiUSA.com

[00:35:29] or call 562-314-4603

[00:35:31] for more details

[00:35:33] Hyundai, there's joy in every journey

[00:35:35] You talk about how some of this stuff

[00:35:37] may not be as attention grabbing

[00:35:39] as the stuff in the public sector

[00:35:41] I'm curious, can you tell us

[00:35:43] a little bit about the

[00:35:45] crime that Nora is brought

[00:35:47] down there to investigate

[00:35:49] and how it actually may be

[00:35:51] more serious than it may appear

[00:35:53] to some people at first glance

[00:35:55] Yeah, Nora is hired

[00:35:57] by this investment manager

[00:35:59] because they're

[00:36:01] worried about front running

[00:36:03] which is a real

[00:36:05] thing in the investment management

[00:36:07] business, a concern about that

[00:36:09] what front running is

[00:36:11] if you are managing people's money

[00:36:13] for individuals or for a pension fund

[00:36:15] you obviously want to buy

[00:36:17] and sell stock

[00:36:19] and other more sophisticated financial

[00:36:21] instruments, but if

[00:36:23] people find out you're about to buy

[00:36:25] or about to sell

[00:36:27] they can sneak into the marketplace

[00:36:29] and benefit from

[00:36:31] the fact that your sale

[00:36:33] will, even if momentarily

[00:36:35] drive the stock price down

[00:36:37] and your purchase, especially if you're buying

[00:36:39] thousands and thousands of shares, may drive

[00:36:41] the stock price of a company up

[00:36:43] so if you know that information about

[00:36:45] somebody, you can get in

[00:36:47] either buy just before they do

[00:36:49] or sell just after they do

[00:36:51] and you will be able to make money

[00:36:53] it doesn't seem like you can make a lot

[00:36:55] but actually, when you're talking about

[00:36:57] trades that are millions

[00:36:59] and millions and millions of dollars

[00:37:01] worth of securities

[00:37:03] if somebody knows where you're going

[00:37:05] they can make a ton of money from it

[00:37:07] so in the financial investment

[00:37:09] world, there's a lot of attention

[00:37:11] spent to protecting the

[00:37:13] information, so that your brokers

[00:37:15] who may be executing the trades

[00:37:17] or your financial institution

[00:37:19] who may be involved in the trades is not telling anyone

[00:37:21] what you're doing and you're trying

[00:37:23] sometimes to spread out your trades

[00:37:25] so that people don't notice

[00:37:27] that it's you, a big investment money manager

[00:37:29] doing something

[00:37:31] and if it gets out, if it starts to happen

[00:37:33] to you front running and it gets out

[00:37:35] that it's being done to you

[00:37:37] it can really hurt your reputation

[00:37:39] and obviously this is

[00:37:41] fictionalized, this didn't happen to me

[00:37:43] in my employment, but I know it's a big enough

[00:37:45] concern in the industry

[00:37:47] and it's a complicated part of this particular

[00:37:49] mystery

[00:37:51] In your time

[00:37:53] in the public sector

[00:37:55] did you do any sort of

[00:37:57] have any cases where you had to

[00:37:59] dig into these sort of white collar

[00:38:01] financial crimes that can kind of

[00:38:03] have a really big impact

[00:38:05] even though they don't necessarily

[00:38:07] always get the same headlines

[00:38:09] as say like a murder

[00:38:11] or kidnapping or something like that

[00:38:13] Yes, and

[00:38:15] most prominently when I was

[00:38:17] the US attorney in Manhattan

[00:38:19] after 9-11 we had

[00:38:21] an explosion of corporate fraud

[00:38:23] cases and so we were investigating

[00:38:25] enormous companies that people may

[00:38:27] still remember the names of, Enron

[00:38:29] I indicted

[00:38:31] Martha Stewart and other

[00:38:33] people associated with a company in which she

[00:38:35] had engaged in stock transactions

[00:38:37] and so these were

[00:38:39] it was the, really the only

[00:38:41] time in my career where these kind of cases

[00:38:43] were sexy, they were being followed

[00:38:45] not just by the Financial Times but the New York

[00:38:47] Post was writing about it, not always

[00:38:49] well as you might imagine but

[00:38:51] they were being covered by lots and lots

[00:38:53] of media because there was a sense

[00:38:55] that we're having a run

[00:38:57] on corporate fraud in the United States

[00:38:59] and we felt tremendous pressure

[00:39:01] to make cases and then tell

[00:39:03] the people of the United States

[00:39:05] about the cases so they knew that the system

[00:39:07] wasn't corrupt and if

[00:39:09] there were bad actors or bad companies

[00:39:11] we were gonna hold them accountable

[00:39:13] so I did a fair amount of that work

[00:39:15] Why do you think that time

[00:39:17] period was such a big boom for that

[00:39:19] sort of work where there's just a lot of people

[00:39:21] like let's do fraud or was it

[00:39:23] something that was like the government's kind of like

[00:39:25] okay we need to tamp down on this

[00:39:27] in a pretty big way? I think it was

[00:39:29] mostly connected to conditions

[00:39:31] in the marketplace. Warren Buffett

[00:39:33] had this awesome expression, I hope I get it right

[00:39:35] he said

[00:39:37] just as a rising tide lifts all

[00:39:39] boats, a quickly receding

[00:39:41] tide exposes all naked

[00:39:43] bathers and so what had happened

[00:39:45] in the late 90s into the early

[00:39:47] 2000s is the tech sector

[00:39:49] in particular had gone crazy

[00:39:51] and we had a boom where anything

[00:39:53] that you could, any stock that you could say

[00:39:55] was a tech stock sold

[00:39:57] tremendously and the price ran up and up

[00:39:59] and up and there were a lot of legitimate companies

[00:40:01] doing good work but there were companies who

[00:40:03] were not able to meet the

[00:40:05] expectations of their shareholders

[00:40:07] they lost their suit in the water

[00:40:09] and so rather than raising their hand and saying I need

[00:40:11] a towel, I have to come out, they were

[00:40:13] swimming naked and what that

[00:40:15] means is they were lying about

[00:40:17] how many products they were shipping

[00:40:19] they were lying about how many ads they were selling

[00:40:21] on their programs, that sort of thing

[00:40:23] and then the tech sector

[00:40:25] crashed and when it crashed

[00:40:27] it exposed a lot of naked bathers

[00:40:29] a lot of people who had been lying to their

[00:40:31] shareholders into the marketplace

[00:40:33] and those

[00:40:35] I used to say it sounded creepy so I stopped

[00:40:37] saying it publicly but I used to say those naked bathers

[00:40:39] those are the people I want

[00:40:41] and so we would

[00:40:43] look for those kinds of things

[00:40:45] and then try to send a very strong message

[00:40:47] of deterrence that these are

[00:40:49] not victimless crimes and people

[00:40:51] are going to be held seriously

[00:40:53] responsible for this

[00:40:57] another thing I really

[00:40:59] enjoy about your writing is obviously

[00:41:01] there's really interesting well-drawn

[00:41:03] characters, there's a compelling plot

[00:41:05] that just grabs you and grips you

[00:41:07] but in addition because as we

[00:41:09] said you've lived in this world

[00:41:11] you're able to throw in

[00:41:13] little observations

[00:41:15] here and there and I wanted to read something

[00:41:17] that jumped out at me

[00:41:19] you said really rich people know

[00:41:21] on some level the chance

[00:41:23] pure luck played a big role in their

[00:41:25] success and they deal with that

[00:41:27] in one of two ways

[00:41:29] some hold on to a sense of guilt

[00:41:31] and compensate by trying to help other

[00:41:33] people most submerge it

[00:41:35] by telling themselves they are

[00:41:37] uniquely talented and deserve the

[00:41:39] money. I thought that was a really

[00:41:41] interesting observation that comes from somebody

[00:41:43] who's obviously spent some time around very wealthy

[00:41:45] people so

[00:41:47] can you discuss that or

[00:41:49] maybe tell us about your time with the

[00:41:51] wealthy people? Yeah that was news

[00:41:53] to me because I didn't grow up

[00:41:55] my family didn't have money we were

[00:41:57] and we were fine middle class people

[00:41:59] and it wasn't

[00:42:01] until I left government

[00:42:03] and went into corporate America that

[00:42:05] I started to rub elbows with rich folks

[00:42:07] and was struck

[00:42:09] by that

[00:42:11] that anybody

[00:42:13] who's making

[00:42:15] 50 million dollars a year

[00:42:17] is

[00:42:19] either

[00:42:21] supremely talented

[00:42:23] a pitcher unlike

[00:42:25] any other pitcher and there are those

[00:42:27] people right LeBron James who I'm a fan

[00:42:29] of deserves the money he's paid

[00:42:31] Caitlin Clark deserves to be paid a lot

[00:42:33] of money to play in Indianapolis

[00:42:35] and I

[00:42:37] because they have unique talents

[00:42:39] most of the people in corporate America

[00:42:41] don't

[00:42:43] or if they have talent it's

[00:42:45] also a lot of luck

[00:42:47] they are where they are because of the way they looked

[00:42:49] the way they sounded, who they knew

[00:42:51] a break that came to them

[00:42:53] and that was true of me

[00:42:55] a big part of my success I think was

[00:42:57] I'm a tall white male who looks

[00:42:59] a certain way and is

[00:43:01] you know I'm a nice enough looking person

[00:43:03] but I'm not a Ryan Gosling who's gonna

[00:43:05] throw you off and make you mad

[00:43:07] and so

[00:43:09] those are unearned

[00:43:11] right that I

[00:43:13] all those things about me but I met a lot

[00:43:15] of people whose

[00:43:17] approach to life was my poop don't

[00:43:19] smell and that

[00:43:21] I'm here I'm making all this money

[00:43:23] because I deserve it

[00:43:25] and the guy who's picking and emptying my trash

[00:43:27] can is less than

[00:43:29] I and so that's why he's

[00:43:31] paid minimum wage and I'm

[00:43:33] paid all this money

[00:43:35] and I remember it really rubbed me

[00:43:37] the wrong way and made me notice

[00:43:39] the ones and I met the ones who

[00:43:41] made a lot of money and whose attitude was

[00:43:43] holy crap why am I

[00:43:45] making all this money

[00:43:47] I will take this money and do good with it

[00:43:49] because it's not about me

[00:43:51] except in the sense that I'm

[00:43:53] a lucky person

[00:43:55] absolutely to kind of marry two

[00:43:57] topics we've been sort of talking about

[00:43:59] you know when it comes to the financial

[00:44:01] crimes or financial misconduct

[00:44:03] white collar crimes and then

[00:44:05] that sort of culture that you discussed when it comes

[00:44:07] to the uber wealthy people

[00:44:09] you know have a lot of

[00:44:11] money how can that contribute to

[00:44:13] sort of you know basically a kind of a culture

[00:44:15] of non accountability

[00:44:17] when it comes to people who might

[00:44:19] think that they're entitled to be

[00:44:21] above the law be above

[00:44:23] morality

[00:44:25] that's I feel like somewhat of a theme in this

[00:44:27] work as well

[00:44:29] yeah well people

[00:44:31] to make

[00:44:33] a lot of money and not have it influence you

[00:44:35] requires you to deal with a bit of

[00:44:37] cognitive dissonance

[00:44:39] right that I'm getting all this but

[00:44:41] I don't fully deserve it and as I

[00:44:43] said in the piece you read

[00:44:45] that generates a sense of guilt

[00:44:47] and a lot of people have trouble

[00:44:49] keeping that in their head

[00:44:51] they want to suppress it in some way

[00:44:53] but it's related to

[00:44:55] building an environment in which you

[00:44:57] will hear the truth

[00:44:59] because the best leaders I've ever worked

[00:45:01] for knew that they could be wrong

[00:45:03] and worried that they could be wrong up

[00:45:05] until the very moment they made a decision and even

[00:45:07] afterwards and that meant they wanted

[00:45:09] good advice they wanted to be told

[00:45:11] when they were too close to the line when they were making

[00:45:13] mistakes well the people who

[00:45:15] suppress the dissonance

[00:45:17] also suppress any sense of

[00:45:19] humility and so

[00:45:21] it becomes very difficult for

[00:45:23] them to be told the truth

[00:45:25] because they don't want it especially

[00:45:27] if it reveals they're making a mistake

[00:45:29] or they're about to make a mistake

[00:45:31] and so those are the people

[00:45:33] that they're blind willfully blind

[00:45:35] in a way right they shut down

[00:45:37] criticism they shut down

[00:45:39] information inconsistent with what they already believe

[00:45:41] and that's a just

[00:45:43] a tiny step from that into

[00:45:45] you know lying to your shareholders

[00:45:47] lying to your investors because the

[00:45:49] other thing that I noticed in the investigating

[00:45:51] the corporate fraud cases is people would

[00:45:53] tell themselves a story like yeah

[00:45:55] I'm lying about how many

[00:45:57] how much advertising

[00:45:59] we're selling on our

[00:46:01] program but

[00:46:03] I'm a noble leader and I'm

[00:46:05] leading a valuable enterprise and so

[00:46:07] it's necessary to make

[00:46:09] sure that this enterprise survive

[00:46:11] so they tell themself that story

[00:46:13] and so all of those threads

[00:46:15] are to my mind in the same

[00:46:17] rope of arrogance

[00:46:19] and lack of humility

[00:46:21] yeah it's very Elizabeth Holmes

[00:46:23] Theranos kind of we need to save

[00:46:25] the world with this company that means lying

[00:46:27] to make sure the company survives and it's like

[00:46:30] no

[00:46:32] I'm doing good and look it's a problem

[00:46:34] with prosecutors

[00:46:36] and law enforcement right because you're

[00:46:38] you're engaged in business you're trying to put

[00:46:40] away a bad person

[00:46:42] and so in the quiet of a Saturday

[00:46:44] afternoon when you're going through files

[00:46:46] to see if there's things you need to turn over to the

[00:46:48] defense there's a real danger

[00:46:50] that especially a younger

[00:46:52] prosecutor but any prosecutor will look at

[00:46:54] something that could hurt their case and think

[00:46:56] hmm I'm on a noble mission

[00:46:58] this person is guilty

[00:47:00] and so hmm I don't

[00:47:02] know whether I should turn this over because

[00:47:04] it wouldn't be just you know without

[00:47:06] realizing what the justice is a larger

[00:47:08] concept that they're bound to and so

[00:47:10] I don't want to suggest that people in

[00:47:12] government are immune to those kind

[00:47:14] of forces I think it's a universal

[00:47:16] human problem

[00:47:18] how can people resist temptations

[00:47:20] like that

[00:47:24] two things first

[00:47:26] by being

[00:47:28] wrapped in a

[00:47:30] culture and

[00:47:32] where the unspoken assumptions are

[00:47:34] we don't care about any particular

[00:47:36] case we care

[00:47:38] about serving a system

[00:47:40] and we are servants of a system

[00:47:42] that's only just if we act in a certain way

[00:47:44] second

[00:47:46] fear to reinforce that culture

[00:47:48] so think of it as a

[00:47:50] the positive culture

[00:47:52] is a field the fear

[00:47:54] is an electrified fence around the field

[00:47:56] so that if you

[00:47:58] stray out you're going to be hurt

[00:48:00] you're going to be shocked that there will be

[00:48:02] severe punishment for

[00:48:04] withholding of information

[00:48:06] that ought to be turned over to the defense career

[00:48:08] that's a very ruining type of stuff

[00:48:10] but it's I can remember

[00:48:12] when I first became US Attorney in Manhattan

[00:48:14] I discovered that a tradition

[00:48:16] that I had grown up with as a young prosecutor

[00:48:18] which was every trial

[00:48:20] no matter the result you go see

[00:48:22] the boss

[00:48:24] what had happened I noticed by the time I became US

[00:48:26] Attorney is that it drifted

[00:48:28] to only convictions were coming to

[00:48:30] see me and that

[00:48:32] scared me because

[00:48:34] that risk I thought sending

[00:48:36] a message to a young prosecutor

[00:48:38] on that Saturday afternoon

[00:48:40] the boss cares about convictions only

[00:48:42] and so it undercuts

[00:48:44] the culture you want to send

[00:48:46] the cultural message you want to send

[00:48:48] and so I said no no no everyone will come

[00:48:50] and I especially embraced

[00:48:52] cases that had ended in not guilty

[00:48:54] verdicts after asking

[00:48:56] tell me about this case tell me why this was a

[00:48:58] case that we needed to bring

[00:49:00] then I would say thank you because justice

[00:49:02] sometimes requires you taking a swing

[00:49:04] this sexual assault case is very difficult

[00:49:06] but thank you for bringing it

[00:49:08] this is what justice is about

[00:49:10] now if someone came back multiple times

[00:49:12] with acquittals I'd have a whole other

[00:49:14] conversation but

[00:49:16] you can see what I'm trying to do there is I'm trying to

[00:49:18] spot what the culture is

[00:49:20] and make sure that I'm reinforcing it in a

[00:49:22] good way to make sure

[00:49:24] that we stay on track

[00:49:26] Man that

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[00:49:54] today

[00:49:56] Welcome to Fail Better

[00:49:58] David Duchovny's new podcast

[00:50:00] with Lemonada Media

[00:50:02] On Fail Better, David

[00:50:04] who has experienced both low

[00:50:06] and high profile failures throughout his life

[00:50:08] explores the vast world

[00:50:10] of failure, how it holds us

[00:50:12] back, propels us forward

[00:50:14] and ultimately shapes our lives

[00:50:16] Each week he'll chat with guests

[00:50:18] like Ben Stiller, Bette Nidler

[00:50:20] and more about how our perceived

[00:50:22] failures have actually been our

[00:50:24] biggest catalysts for growth,

[00:50:26] revelation and even healing

[00:50:28] Through these conversations, he hopes

[00:50:30] listeners can learn how to embrace the

[00:50:32] opportunity of failure and fail

[00:50:34] better together. Fail Better

[00:50:36] is out now wherever you get your podcasts

[00:50:40] Okay, picture this, it's Friday afternoon

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[00:51:06] Hyundai, there's joy

[00:51:08] in every journey

[00:51:10] Yeah, sometimes it feels like in a culture

[00:51:12] the fear of failure can be more

[00:51:14] I guess overpowering

[00:51:16] to the point where people are so scared

[00:51:18] to make mistakes or acknowledge mistakes

[00:51:20] or acknowledge just failures

[00:51:22] that it can be

[00:51:24] it can kind of undermine

[00:51:26] any sort of risk taking, even risks that might

[00:51:28] be necessary because it's the right thing

[00:51:30] to do obviously. Yeah, and closely

[00:51:32] related to that is people's ability

[00:51:34] to convince themselves

[00:51:36] that they're right

[00:51:38] and their difficulty

[00:51:40] being wrong. I mean the cases

[00:51:42] I've been involved in that involved

[00:51:44] innocent people going to prison

[00:51:46] were all cases that

[00:51:48] involved good investigators and good

[00:51:50] prosecutors who were

[00:51:52] just like the rest of us

[00:51:54] deeply flawed humans

[00:51:56] they saw something, they believed they had

[00:51:58] it right and that made it

[00:52:00] impossible for them to see alternatives

[00:52:02] and even when confronted with evidence

[00:52:04] that the person was innocent, they would react

[00:52:06] angrily

[00:52:08] because the mistake was a threat

[00:52:10] to their very identity. That's something we all

[00:52:12] struggle with as humans, being wrong

[00:52:14] and it's a big part of the criminal justice

[00:52:16] system. Making sure when you're

[00:52:18] trying to build a culture that you

[00:52:20] take that into account, you know people

[00:52:22] are this way, including yourself.

[00:52:24] I mean of course

[00:52:26] this novel is about Nora working

[00:52:28] in corporate law where you work

[00:52:30] I'm curious, is there anything

[00:52:32] that you miss about working

[00:52:34] in the corporate law field?

[00:52:38] I missed

[00:52:40] I loved the jobs I had because I learned

[00:52:42] a ton about worlds I knew nothing about

[00:52:44] I remember when the recruiter

[00:52:46] called me when I was at

[00:52:48] Lockheed Martin to recruit

[00:52:50] me to come work in the investment

[00:52:52] management world and

[00:52:54] she asked me did I know

[00:52:56] anything about it and I said no

[00:52:58] and she said well if you

[00:53:00] were in the financial space you would know

[00:53:02] and I said well I'm not, I'm in the rockets and

[00:53:04] airplane and helicopter business

[00:53:06] so I don't know anything about it

[00:53:08] and so that, I love learning new

[00:53:10] things and so that was

[00:53:12] something I really enjoyed doing

[00:53:14] that said

[00:53:16] I meant what I said

[00:53:18] I don't want to insult people

[00:53:20] who make a lot of money

[00:53:22] in companies, that's fine

[00:53:24] but it never animated me

[00:53:26] and I can remember when I was leaving

[00:53:28] the investment manager

[00:53:30] it was a cool place, I was really glad I went there

[00:53:32] it was the kind of place where you did what I did

[00:53:34] I sent an email to the whole workforce saying

[00:53:36] I think I'm going to leave next year

[00:53:38] and here's why

[00:53:40] because this is cool, I've learned a lot

[00:53:42] it's really interesting

[00:53:44] but I don't get great joy out of the markets

[00:53:46] I remember an executive coming to me and saying

[00:53:48] so do you have enough?

[00:53:50] I said what do you mean?

[00:53:52] He said do you have enough money

[00:53:54] that you never need to work again

[00:53:56] and I said

[00:53:58] no is that the standard?

[00:54:00] Is that the standard?

[00:54:02] No, but you can tell in just

[00:54:04] a question how central

[00:54:06] money was to that person

[00:54:08] and that's okay, it just wasn't to me

[00:54:10] and so I don't miss

[00:54:12] even though I enjoyed it, I was glad

[00:54:14] I was there and learned a lot

[00:54:16] I don't miss corporate America

[00:54:18] I was curious

[00:54:20] you left

[00:54:22] it's interesting and you mentioned

[00:54:24] worrying that you burned so many bridges

[00:54:26] maybe it wouldn't be possible but you did end up

[00:54:28] going back to public service

[00:54:30] to government and what about

[00:54:32] public service draws people like

[00:54:34] yourself back into it even though it's way

[00:54:36] less lucrative and convenient

[00:54:38] than sort of the private side of things

[00:54:40] what about it animated you to

[00:54:42] make you want to go back to it?

[00:54:44] You get paid

[00:54:46] not a lot, but you get paid

[00:54:48] to try to help people

[00:54:50] who need you

[00:54:52] FBI's job is

[00:54:54] to rescue the taken

[00:54:56] protect the vulnerable

[00:54:58] the bullied, the picked on

[00:55:00] the terrorized

[00:55:02] and that's a pretty cool way

[00:55:04] to make a living, it's an

[00:55:06] exhausting way to make a living

[00:55:08] but it's, the job has

[00:55:10] I mean it's true

[00:55:12] I bet it sounds

[00:55:14] snobby to people but the job has moral

[00:55:16] content, right? You're not supposed

[00:55:18] to do anything, you

[00:55:20] do because you're humans, you make mistakes

[00:55:22] but you're supposed to make every decision asking

[00:55:24] is this the right thing to do

[00:55:26] is this consistent with the law

[00:55:28] and am I

[00:55:30] being a good person here

[00:55:32] in the private sector whether you're a law

[00:55:34] firm or a lawyer at a company

[00:55:36] your job is to advise the company or your

[00:55:38] client about risk and I did

[00:55:40] criminal defense work, it's incredibly important

[00:55:42] and unbelievably hard

[00:55:44] among the reasons that it's hard is

[00:55:46] your job is not to

[00:55:48] do what you think is right, your job is

[00:55:50] to make the best argument you can for

[00:55:52] your client and I represented

[00:55:54] people, I don't think I, I did not

[00:55:56] represent anyone that I believe to be innocent, thank

[00:55:58] God, but that's

[00:56:00] terrifying work, your job

[00:56:02] is to try to help this person

[00:56:04] your ethical responsibility is

[00:56:06] to make every argument that can reasonably

[00:56:08] be made even if you don't fully believe it

[00:56:10] to try and help this client

[00:56:12] that's hard and it's much

[00:56:14] easier to be on the government side of things

[00:56:16] where you better not have words come out of your

[00:56:18] mouth that you don't fully believe, you better

[00:56:20] not make arguments that aren't

[00:56:22] the best, the closest

[00:56:24] to the facts and the law

[00:56:26] and so having the freedom to

[00:56:28] be that is what makes, to me,

[00:56:30] makes government so

[00:56:32] such a cool place to work and as I

[00:56:35] said it's a hard place to work

[00:56:37] but I loved it and I, you were

[00:56:39] right, I never expected to go back

[00:56:41] and when the Attorney General called

[00:56:43] me and asked me would I come down and interview

[00:56:45] for FBI Director, I said no

[00:56:48] that I thought it'd be too much for my family

[00:56:51] and then he, he

[00:56:53] kind of talked me into it, I told him I thought

[00:56:55] the answer would still be no but then Patrice told

[00:56:57] me to go down and be interviewed

[00:56:59] and then she said they're not gonna

[00:57:01] pick you anyway

[00:57:03] but you go down there, she said she didn't want me

[00:57:05] moping around, I could have been the FBI Director

[00:57:07] and now I'm just a professor

[00:57:09] and so I went down, I remember meeting

[00:57:11] with President Obama and I walked out of the

[00:57:13] White House and I called her

[00:57:15] and I said, you know, your faith in their judgement

[00:57:17] is misplaced because

[00:57:19] I think he's gonna ask me

[00:57:21] to do this and it's gonna turn our lives

[00:57:23] upside down

[00:57:25] and that part was true

[00:57:27] but just, if you're doing it right

[00:57:29] your job is to help

[00:57:31] and to help people who really

[00:57:33] need you and communities that need you

[00:57:35] that's a cool way to make a living

[00:57:38] One thing I was curious about, since the

[00:57:40] novel is ultimately

[00:57:42] a story with

[00:57:44] financial crimes, white collar crimes at the heart

[00:57:46] of it, do you think that those kinds

[00:57:48] of crimes are taken seriously enough

[00:57:50] by our system of justice right now

[00:57:52] and law enforcement or what not

[00:57:54] or do we have a ways to go when it comes to

[00:57:56] I guess safeguarding

[00:57:58] against that kind of crime

[00:58:00] I think they're taken

[00:58:02] seriously

[00:58:04] but the playing field is tilted

[00:58:06] because

[00:58:08] having worked a lot

[00:58:10] in the justice system, I know

[00:58:12] that the quality of justice

[00:58:14] varies in direct proportion to the quality

[00:58:16] of your lawyer

[00:58:18] which is why it's so important that we

[00:58:20] have legal aid programs

[00:58:22] for indigent defendants

[00:58:24] but business crimes are typically

[00:58:26] involving you investigating a company

[00:58:28] or individuals who have the resources

[00:58:30] to have lots of lawyers

[00:58:32] that really are able

[00:58:34] to make life hard for

[00:58:36] prosecutors and investigators

[00:58:38] so they're hard cases to investigate

[00:58:40] because there is a, I mean class

[00:58:42] and wealth and privilege

[00:58:44] makes a difference

[00:58:46] and both in terms of the resources

[00:58:48] they can bring to bear and then there's a certain

[00:58:50] there's a certain fear

[00:58:52] that lays on prosecutors investigating

[00:58:54] in my experience, investigating

[00:58:56] complex financial crimes involving

[00:58:58] prominent

[00:59:00] subjects, people, either individuals

[00:59:02] or companies, there's a fear

[00:59:04] of losing and being embarrassed

[00:59:06] that is not present

[00:59:08] in lots of other cases because

[00:59:10] the subjects

[00:59:12] are represented by the same people

[00:59:14] who went to your kind of law school, your elite law

[00:59:16] schools, they may hang out at

[00:59:18] the same clubs you hang out with, I don't know

[00:59:20] play golf at the same places you play at

[00:59:22] and so there's a

[00:59:24] fear that I used to feel

[00:59:26] and I once said it to a reporter

[00:59:28] I called it the chicken shit club

[00:59:30] and then he used what I said to be the title of his book

[00:59:32] The Chicken Shit Club

[00:59:34] but there is

[00:59:36] there's a chicken shitness

[00:59:38] to sometimes

[00:59:40] that infects prosecutions of powerful

[00:59:42] people

[00:59:44] again, sometimes for reasons you understand

[00:59:46] sometimes for reasons that are harder to understand

[00:59:48] a fear of loss, a fear

[00:59:50] of embarrassment, a fear of playing a game

[00:59:52] on national television not having it

[00:59:54] come out well

[00:59:56] and that makes it an uneven

[00:59:58] playing field in a lot of ways

[01:00:00] to be poor and non-white

[01:00:02] in this country, none of those things

[01:00:04] are a factor in your prosecutions

[01:00:06] in the overwhelming main, those issues

[01:00:08] of power or embarrassment

[01:00:10] but they are in investigations

[01:00:12] and prosecutions of

[01:00:14] financial crimes

[01:00:16] so

[01:00:18] your last book was of course

[01:00:21] your first novel, this is your second

[01:00:23] novel, I'm curious was the process

[01:00:25] any easier this time around

[01:00:27] since you've done it before?

[01:00:29] I guess

[01:00:31] in the sense that I knew

[01:00:33] I had a better sense of what the

[01:00:35] painful parts would be

[01:00:37] and the hard parts would be

[01:00:39] I liked, I think John Green

[01:00:41] described writing a novel as

[01:00:43] your first draft is a hunk of

[01:00:45] stone you pulled out of a quarry

[01:00:47] and it's

[01:00:49] all the little chiseling that makes it

[01:00:51] a book and so there's

[01:00:53] so much chiseling

[01:00:55] first of all getting feedback from so many people

[01:00:57] most of whom are in my

[01:00:59] family and so they love me enough to

[01:01:01] really be direct and so

[01:01:03] accounting for all that feedback

[01:01:05] going over it and over it yourself

[01:01:07] and chiseling and chiseling and shaping

[01:01:09] that was

[01:01:11] harder the first time because

[01:01:13] I didn't know when I was going to get out of it

[01:01:15] having been through it

[01:01:17] I knew what the process was going to be like

[01:01:21] and so it was easier that time

[01:01:23] I really enjoyed it though

[01:01:25] enough that I really

[01:01:27] hope this is my job, I mean I'm just finishing

[01:01:29] the third book now

[01:01:31] and it's something that I

[01:01:33] really get joy out of

[01:01:35] and so I

[01:01:37] think it's easier because I know

[01:01:39] where the pain points are and I can

[01:01:41] anticipate them and push

[01:01:43] through them and I

[01:01:45] hope that'll be the case going forward

[01:01:47] When we last spoke

[01:01:49] I believe it was just before the publication

[01:01:51] of your first novel and you were getting ready to meet

[01:01:53] some of your new peers

[01:01:55] in the mystery writing community

[01:01:57] I'm just curious what has that experience

[01:01:59] been like joining that new community?

[01:02:01] Well it lit

[01:02:03] my imposter complex on fire

[01:02:05] so to meet

[01:02:07] people

[01:02:09] I think my publisher told me

[01:02:11] stop saying these are real writers

[01:02:13] because you're a real writer

[01:02:15] now but yeah

[01:02:17] I feel inadequate

[01:02:19] for the right reason

[01:02:21] around a lot of

[01:02:23] writers who've been successful

[01:02:25] and so

[01:02:27] I tried

[01:02:29] and also not to be a jerk, I was on a panel

[01:02:31] and

[01:02:33] with four or five

[01:02:35] other writers at the mystery writers

[01:02:37] international thriller writers convention

[01:02:39] and the moderator

[01:02:41] for some reason asked some question about writing

[01:02:43] and called on me first

[01:02:45] and I said no no no

[01:02:47] ask these people first

[01:02:49] and so I went last

[01:02:51] and I wasn't faking it

[01:02:53] that's the way it should be

[01:02:55] there's a lot, I'm new to this world

[01:02:57] I work hard at it to try and get it right

[01:02:59] and so it's been mostly

[01:03:01] intimidating but they've been

[01:03:03] incredibly kind

[01:03:05] the people who read my book

[01:03:07] both of my books

[01:03:09] and did blurbs

[01:03:11] I

[01:03:13] asked the publisher for their

[01:03:15] addresses so I could write them a note

[01:03:17] and thank them

[01:03:19] and he said yeah nobody does that

[01:03:21] and I said come on

[01:03:23] these people, they took the time

[01:03:25] and

[01:03:27] so I did that

[01:03:29] and I found from

[01:03:31] their responses they're really kind people

[01:03:33] I gather, again I don't know

[01:03:35] anything about this but that

[01:03:37] I'm in the commercial fiction world

[01:03:39] which sounds like a snobby thing for people

[01:03:41] to say about us but in the

[01:03:43] so called literary fiction world

[01:03:45] I'm told that people are less kind

[01:03:47] I don't know if that's true or not but people are

[01:03:49] kind in this world

[01:03:51] and I was wondering

[01:03:53] another craft question just

[01:03:55] when you're crafting a mystery

[01:03:57] what comes first for you?

[01:03:59] Is it the setting?

[01:04:01] Is it the victim?

[01:04:03] Is it the central mystery like the death scene or whatever?

[01:04:05] What for you

[01:04:07] is that launch point

[01:04:09] where you go or does it depend on the story?

[01:04:11] At least so far

[01:04:13] it has been through conversation

[01:04:15] with my wife, with Patrice

[01:04:17] visualizing

[01:04:19] the story

[01:04:22] the thing that happens, what's the crime

[01:04:24] where does it happen

[01:04:26] and who are my

[01:04:28] characters involved with it

[01:04:30] and so it was

[01:04:32] when I started Westport

[01:04:34] I had a vision that

[01:04:36] this will involve

[01:04:38] it'll open with a murder

[01:04:40] Nora will have gone there

[01:04:42] and here's how it will end

[01:04:44] and

[01:04:46] then with that sort of

[01:04:48] I know where I'm going to be driving

[01:04:50] I know I'm going to drive

[01:04:52] from here in DC to Omaha

[01:04:54] and who's going

[01:04:56] to be in the car

[01:04:58] but then figuring out exactly the route

[01:05:00] and what to show readers

[01:05:02] is hard

[01:05:04] but once I start with that

[01:05:06] I know where I'm going to end up, I know what the overall

[01:05:08] trip's going to be

[01:05:10] I don't know that I can do it the way I gather some

[01:05:12] writers do it which is just

[01:05:14] a step at a time, drive a quarter mile

[01:05:16] at a time not knowing exactly where they're going to end

[01:05:18] up so I start with that overarching

[01:05:20] view. I hope that makes sense

[01:05:22] It does. That sounds like the fast and furious

[01:05:24] method, one quarter mile at a time

[01:05:28] I was curious

[01:05:31] in terms of

[01:05:33] now that you have two novels under your

[01:05:35] belt, what would

[01:05:37] do you have any advice for people who might

[01:05:39] be aspiring mystery writers or might want

[01:05:41] to try their hat at that

[01:05:43] over the time that you've

[01:05:45] learned and sort of had this

[01:05:47] experience, anything that comes to mind as far

[01:05:49] as good advice as far as either

[01:05:51] writing or just kind of getting it published

[01:05:55] I don't think I do

[01:05:57] both because

[01:05:59] I'm so new and also

[01:06:01] I think my experience is privileged

[01:06:03] that is

[01:06:05] because people knew who I was

[01:06:07] I guess I'm still alive, who I am

[01:06:11] and so that I mean I had

[01:06:13] a leg up that most people won't have

[01:06:15] and so it's part of my imposter complex

[01:06:17] but it's also a real advantage

[01:06:19] so I think

[01:06:21] I was tremendously helped by my

[01:06:23] agent Kirby Kim

[01:06:25] because he could give

[01:06:27] me advice

[01:06:29] he knew the genre

[01:06:31] and could give me advice

[01:06:33] early on on my writing

[01:06:35] and then also give me advice on

[01:06:37] where I might

[01:06:39] what publishing house might

[01:06:41] best fit me and what I

[01:06:43] was looking for, because I was really

[01:06:45] craving people who would

[01:06:47] tell me when I suck

[01:06:49] and one of the real challenges of

[01:06:51] I guess it's true of all places but of Washington

[01:06:53] DC is people don't tell you

[01:06:55] when you suck because they're

[01:06:57] afraid, they don't ever want to burn a bridge

[01:06:59] it connects to what we were talking about before

[01:07:01] as the boss of a company

[01:07:03] or a team trying to get people to tell you the truth

[01:07:05] and so I really wanted

[01:07:07] people who would not

[01:07:09] blow smoke at me

[01:07:11] so having a good agent

[01:07:13] who would tell me the truth

[01:07:15] and then find me places that

[01:07:17] might be a good match publishing wise

[01:07:19] for the same reason

[01:07:21] but again my experience is so

[01:07:23] weird that I don't presume to give

[01:07:25] people advice about this

[01:07:27] Before we wrap up you

[01:07:29] kind of casually mentioned a third

[01:07:31] book about Nora

[01:07:33] can you give us any non-spoiler

[01:07:35] hints or suggestions

[01:07:37] of what might be next

[01:07:39] for Nora? Or beyond

[01:07:41] any other writing projects

[01:07:43] Yeah, I think that, what can I tell

[01:07:45] people?

[01:07:47] I want to tell a story

[01:07:49] in the third book that's back in Manhattan

[01:07:51] the theme of which is

[01:07:53] white identity extremism

[01:07:55] so domestic extremism

[01:07:57] by white people

[01:07:59] which is a significant issue

[01:08:01] in this country, something I know a lot about from the FBI

[01:08:03] and

[01:08:05] have it be current

[01:08:07] so modern day, involving the US

[01:08:09] Attorney's Office

[01:08:11] and my

[01:08:13] characters will be around

[01:08:15] I mean Carmen might become the US

[01:08:17] Attorney and she might want Nora

[01:08:19] to be her deputy, the number two

[01:08:21] and so the characters

[01:08:23] will get a little bit older but

[01:08:25] Ron will actually work

[01:08:27] and show people a different

[01:08:29] kind of case in a different

[01:08:31] with familiar characters

[01:08:33] and then I don't know

[01:08:35] where to go next actually

[01:08:37] and so I'm trying to decide

[01:08:39] should I keep going

[01:08:41] should I write a prequel

[01:08:43] because a lot of people have asked me about the

[01:08:45] backstory of Benny

[01:08:47] and Nora's relationship

[01:08:49] and so I don't know the answer to that

[01:08:51] yet and there's other places I'd like to take

[01:08:53] readers, I mean I have a lot of stories

[01:08:55] in my head as you might imagine

[01:08:57] from Washington DC

[01:08:59] and I lived in Richmond Virginia

[01:09:01] for nine years and was a prosecutor

[01:09:03] and so I have Virginia stories

[01:09:05] that I think would be really interesting

[01:09:07] to people and so we'll see

[01:09:09] and also don't know

[01:09:11] is it best to have these characters

[01:09:13] let's say a Nora promoted

[01:09:15] to a job at the Justice Department in Washington

[01:09:17] and that's the vehicle to tell DC

[01:09:19] stories or should I start a separate

[01:09:21] set of characters and a separate story

[01:09:23] line there, I don't know the answer yet

[01:09:25] you could start a Comey-verse

[01:09:27] you know like kind of link them together

[01:09:31] it sounds very

[01:09:33] exciting, I'm really looking forward to

[01:09:35] that book, we love the first

[01:09:37] two and we'll go

[01:09:39] wherever you go

[01:09:41] and thank you so much for taking the time

[01:09:43] this was terrific

[01:09:45] you're great as always, thank you, it's good to be with you

[01:09:47] is there anything we didn't ask you about

[01:09:49] before we conclude that

[01:09:51] you wanted to mention or anything important

[01:09:53] for our listeners to understand about any of

[01:09:55] this that we talked about? I don't think so

[01:09:57] I think you covered it, that was fun

[01:09:59] awesome! Thank you, we really enjoyed it, thank you

[01:10:01] so much. Absolutely. And I didn't

[01:10:03] realize I was throwing in a Caitlin Clark

[01:10:05] Indianapolis plug, as the words were coming

[01:10:07] out of my mouth I remembered where you are

[01:10:09] and John Green, you were quoting John Green

[01:10:11] oh yeah that's right!

[01:10:13] it's a very Indiana code

[01:10:15] it really was

[01:10:17] shameless, shameless Hoosier

[01:10:19] plugging

[01:10:23] oh man, well thank you so much

[01:10:25] hopefully we'll see you again next year and talk about the third one

[01:10:27] I'd love to, be well

[01:10:29] it's great to see you

[01:10:31] thanks to James Comey

[01:10:33] for speaking with us again

[01:10:35] we always enjoy having him on

[01:10:37] the show. We will include a link

[01:10:39] to order both of his novels in our

[01:10:41] show notes. Thanks so much

[01:10:43] for listening to The Murder Sheet

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