Questions and Answers to Close Out 2024

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content warning. This episode includes discussion of the murder of two children and knowing Anya, it will likely also include some profanity.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. Calling me out. So last year to close out 2023, we took a bunch of questions from our audience.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Because if there's one thing we've learned that people who listen to this podcast, they have a lot of questions about what's going on.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You all are an inquisitive bunch and we're happy, as are we. So we relate and we want to try to answer as many questions as possible.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably can't get to everyone who submitted. Thank you to everyone who submitted.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you didn't get your question and answer, probably be prepared for an email back from me or a response to your comment because I hate leaving people out.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's just me. We're going to go through these. I think they're kind of in several categories.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say the Delphi murders case is one. Podcasting in general, just general true crime.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then some personal questions. So things might get a little off the rails at the end here.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited. Let's get started. Push the button. Yeah.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is questions and answers to close out 2024.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's start with some Delphi questions.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. So this is a question we've gotten several versions of.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll try to boil it down as best I can.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But this was from several people and we've heard it from people in real life, too.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They want to know about this. People want to know when we're talking about Richard Allen, a man in his early 50s.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not exactly the age you'd expect someone to commit their first crime of this magnitude of the double homicide of two children.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: People want to know, do we think he has a history of sexually motivated crimes or murders?

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Has he killed other people?

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Why would he commit his first crime at such an older age?

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: When you look at the statistics, the typical profile of a murderer is a young man.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when people are younger, their brains and their life experiences, it's just it makes them more likely to lash out in violence, especially for men.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so an older guy, not quite what you'd expect.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So one thing I found very interesting about this is when we talked to Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police, he told us something interesting.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: He said that the FBI's behavioral analysis unit felt that in their profile, the killer of Libby and Abby could have been someone who had no criminal history.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So obviously, if the BAU came to that conclusion, they must be aware of like that can happen sometimes where someone has either not been caught or has not committed a serious crime before.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: In my mind, I'd want to see the numbers about how unlikely it is to commit murder in older age.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel comfortable being like, oh, I can't believe that could happen because what are the numbers?

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't know.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I would want to look at more statistically.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I know statistically it tends to point towards younger, but I don't feel like I could say this is totally beyond the realm of possibility.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I could understand like I could conceptualize a situation where an older person has always harbored fantasies about committing sexual assault, rape, murder, and eventually maybe due to life stressors acts upon that a little bit later in life.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that to me sounds so wild.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly, if I was a member of law enforcement in a community where Richard Allen once lived, I would be interested in taking a look.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Were there rapes or murders that took place while he lived there that were unsolved?

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I would be curious to take a look at that.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's well said, and I think that's something that should be looked at.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would also just add to that when we look at how he committed this crime, he had the goal, he had the intent on raping these two beautiful girls, and he did not achieve that.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So he seems like someone who did not really kind of it did not actualize for him in the way that he fantasized about.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So that to me, when you look at people who are serial killers, they often sort of get closer and closer to their ideal fantasy as they go on and gain more experience.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would think like an experienced killer, serial killer would have potentially had more control of this situation.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's something that also points to me that this may have been his first time doing it.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a great point.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, here's another question we received.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: What in your mind was the single biggest error made by investigators in the Delphi case?

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's very easy in my mind.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that the tip that was incorrectly marked as not needing further follow ups was the biggest mistake.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But here's the thing.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that was the fault of investigators.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that was the fault of Unified Command, which, of course, is a core group of people who are working on this case.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's the fault of Dan Doolin, the Department of Natural Resources officer who investigated Alan.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He actually, in his paperwork, filed, hey, guys, we got the name wrong.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually Richard Allen, not Richard Allen Whiteman.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Correct this.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also filed it under needs more investigation.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So he did the right thing.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Somehow, I'd like to get more clarity on this, but somehow it got misfiled anyway.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like the error originated with dispatch when they were initially taking Allen's information.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Somehow that ended up, you know, basically causing this thing to get buried.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And like to me, someone like Jerry Holman or Tony Liggett, they're not responsible for that happening.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not their mess up.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like one unfortunate error.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And when you think about it, like if this had happened with almost any like any other tip, it wouldn't have mattered.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if it happened with some person calling in like I'm a psychic, like it would have been like whatever.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Who cares?

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It just happened to be the one crucial piece that then required Kathy Shank all those years later.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a hero for doing this, for volunteering and then finding it.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that is the biggest mistake.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't know if it really is the fault of the investigators.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that I think is like a collective blame thing.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just really unfortunate.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe if there's a lesson to take from this is that if there's a lot of agencies and people involved, it can be easy for stuff like this to happen.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe in the future, massive investigations can kind of keep that in mind and like try to create fail safes, I guess.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that fair to say?

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That's fair to say.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Another question people wanted to know.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: What do we think about Richard Allen proactively reaching out to the authorities to put himself at the bridge at the same time as the girls?

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Was he being calculated or clueless?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a couple of possibilities here.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't it intimated at the trial that one of the reasons he reached out was because his wife urged him to?

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So his wife is saying, hey, honey, you told me you were at the trails that day.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you should go in.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It would look really weird if he didn't.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's that.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's a little bit of pressure from his wife to do that.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was also an aspect.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I remember the case of the Lion Sisters in Maryland where the person who was ultimately convicted of the kidnapping and murder of those girls, he actually went to police early on and said, oh, I was there the time of the kidnapping.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I may have seen some things.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: He presented himself as a witness.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: There's something very calculated about that.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Because if in the back of your mind you wonder, did someone see me there?

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Are the police going to figure out I was in the vicinity at the time?

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Then maybe you think you want to get ahead of it and offer the police and law enforcement an innocent explanation for your presence there.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've heard from investigators that they feel that Richard Allen is about control.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: He's about controlling his victims in this case.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's a measure of control.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's scary where he must have seen the image of Bridge Guy come out and like, oh, my gosh, they're going to figure it out.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me control the situation and my wife and her questions by coming forward and taking that risk.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But if the risk can allow me greater control and to explain this away, then it's worth doing.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that that fits.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit clueless because ultimately in the end, him coming forward is what led to his downfall.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But I could see it in the moment being a calculated risk.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That would make sense.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, what did you do with your dog Lanny during this trial?

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Lanolin Q. Smith enjoyed her time at her fancy little doggy hotel.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: The thing about Lanolin is she loves to meet new people.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That's her favorite thing in the world.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a show from Canada that Kevin and I enjoy occasionally called The Littlest Hobo.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The word enjoy is a little strong.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We are delighted by it.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're delighted.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you love it.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about a German shepherd that goes from it's like the fugitive with a dog.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: A German shepherd goes from town to town, meeting new people, having new adventures.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That is Lanolin's ideal life.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: She does not.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Dog, though, has not been accused of a crime.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be funny if it had.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Fugitive with a dog.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You're giving people the wrong idea about this program.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's literally, it's the same thing.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're supposed to stay on the rails until the end.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's Lanolin's life.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what she wants.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't seem to realize that that would probably lead to her getting hit by a car and killed.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But she, I think, had a better time than us.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We were really stressed about it because we missed her a lot.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And she came back and she was just happy and doing her thing.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So we were like, okay, that's a little offensive, but okay.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The odd thing is, her secret origin is, I was told that she was found wandering in some sort of field outside of Lafayette, Indiana, which is not too far from Delphi.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that wild?

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you expect at one point we'll go up to the Lafayette State Police Post and there'll be flyers of people wanted for bank robbery and she'll be one of them somehow?

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like a picture of a brindle pit bull looking dog.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, that seems very unlikely.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But it would be funny.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We leave in a hurry.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a character.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a very silly beast.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: She's actually, she's not looking at us.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: She's just kind of hovering in our office right now.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I shouldn't talk too much about her, but she's a very sweet dog.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If you ever see us walking her around, then come say hi.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: She loves to meet people.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's another question.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We actually got several questions about this as we probably complained about incessantly during the trial coverage and maybe a little bit during the sentencing coverage.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: In order to get into court, you would have to stand in line often for hour upon hour upon hour or even potentially days.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: People are very curious.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: What was it like in lines?

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it?

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Bad.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you feel unsettled or unsafe?

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya once got into a memorable scuffle in the line.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say that lady did apologize to me afterwards, so I do appreciate that.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that somehow turned – this is how the rumor mill worked.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Somehow that got back to other people in the courthouse and people kept asking me, like, were you in a fight?

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like that's a little bit extreme given what happened.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was bad.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was also good.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that's a stupid answer.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, to me, there was something really, like, weirdly dehumanizing about the process where we're all, like, out in the cold and, like, kind of like, what are we doing?

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I would ask myself, what am I doing here?

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, a lot.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I felt really frustrated by it because I was like, we are media.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Let us in.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, but ultimately you get used to anything.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It became a lot better once we started getting lifesavers or line sitters.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: God bless you to all those people who volunteered and who did it because that prevented us from being so sleep-deprived and allowed us to get in a lot more.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was very cold and miserable.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: The bright side was we did talk to a lot of interesting people, some people we knew and got to know better, some people we didn't know and got to meet.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so, like, even though it was frustrating on some level, you do feel competitive with the other people.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if they get in and I don't, I'm going to be mad.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You get to know them and you're like, oh, they're actually pretty nice.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, that was a nice thing about it.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Did we have someone physically sitting there nonstop?

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: No, not always, but mostly.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Mostly the time.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Mostly.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Did anyone try to cut in line?

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Someone cut in line at the sentencing.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was a line cutting at the sentencing, which I think people were mad about.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there was a – the people – it would always be weird because it's like you're on this ramp and you're like, okay, I'm 12, Kevin's 13, Susan Hendricks is 14.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We should get in today.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, the amount of counting I did.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, I was losing my mind.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be counting people constantly.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd, like, be like, okay, what number are you?

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Seven?

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm just, like, confronting people on their numbers.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It was insane.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And – but then, especially once the defense started putting on their case, there were a lot of, like, pro – rabidly pro-defense people who came in.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were mostly a lot more uncouth, frankly.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Just – no, I'm not even – generally speaking, they were.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And somehow we'd go from being, like, 14 to being 17 in line and it would be like, okay, well, suddenly people seem to have gotten a lot of new friends up at the top of the line there.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's interesting.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, you know, it's like you can be the line cops or you cannot.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like sometimes it's just not even worth it.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But people would yell at each other.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And as far as an us against them feeling based on where we stood on guilt versus innocence, not at first.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: At first I felt it was very kumbaya in the first, you know, couple of days and weeks during – until the defense started presenting their case, things were actually pretty chill based – people of all kinds of opinions were, like, getting along.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like utopia.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there was this influx of kind of people coming in who I feel like were very adamant that only defense people get in, essentially, or that was the big priority for them, even if it meant basically trying to crowd everyone else out.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And the mood shifted that – shifted at that point.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it became a lot more unpleasant.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: When we're talking about an us versus them thing, I think it's worth noting, and I'm not going to name any names, but I do think it is worth noting that we would be in line with people who were very rapidly pro-defense and who would go on their YouTube channels and say very rapidly pro-defense things.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And the defense are like, gods who walk among us.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The second coming of Clarence Darrow.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They're flawed.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Not only are they lawyers, but they're excellent lawyers.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Because just calling someone a lawyer is high praise indeed.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So they would say often things that I would characterize as extreme.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Embarrassing.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But then when we were in line with them and they would talk to us, it would be like talking to a normal person who would recognize that there were flaws in the defense's presentation and flaws in how they were handling things.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So it felt as if some of these people were very much playing to a crowd and perhaps playing a character when they were on a show on one of their channels as opposed to how they were in what you refer to as real life.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I completely agree, which was honestly almost worse because if you're just kind of nuts, then that's one thing.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're like just kind of lying to your audience because that's what you think they want, it's like, what are you doing?

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the point of that?

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And like maybe you'd be better just being yourself and kind of getting the truth out there or just kind of like, you know, with opinions.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: The thing is, like, it's never really been like people who have not been convinced of his guilt versus people who have been convinced of his guilt.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really always been like there is a there's everyone else who's normal.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there is a small, very loud minority of people who are just kind of like worship this defense team and worship Richard Allen.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how else to describe it.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very cult like.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, they go after people who believe that the state didn't prove its case.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: They go after people who were very concerned about Richard Allen's rights.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But if those people are not seen as sufficiently rabid, they're not welcome and they are attacked as well.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't see it as like an us versus them thing.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It's more of just like there's there are troublemakers and people who are just acting wild and then everybody else.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I will just say, like, one thing I was disgusted by is like the patties would bring in food to people all the time.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just lovely.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just like wonderful people.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And they'd be like feeding people who have like gone online and attacked them incessantly.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think that says so much about the patties.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that says so much about how kind and compassionate they are to people who've been horrible to them.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also think like if you're sitting there taking, you know, banana bread from someone you've been spending years stalking and trashing, then maybe rethink your life and like rethink if you're a good person.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Because like I don't know how you could do that and not feel a wave of shame.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you're accepting bread and treats from people who you've abused.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We got a lot of questions.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to move on.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, do you think if onism had got in, we would have had a hung jury?

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would have been a conviction in 15 minutes.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think the conviction would have come in faster.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it would have been a hung jury.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think one reason to keep onism out was basically to protect the rights of the people who would have been falsely accused of murder had it been included.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also think that it was a stupid theory that was poorly put on.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that this jury did not give any indications that there were any cranks within the 12.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they gave indications that they were paying attention, following the logic.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And guess what?

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Odinism would not have held up to that.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really think the conviction would have been faster.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just my opinion.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, do you think Richard Allen could appeal his conviction based on ineffective assistance of counsel?

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think our friends at the Prosecutors Podcast, Brett and Alice, covered this in more depth.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would definitely check out their show.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just awesome in general.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say they talked about this and they noted that it is really difficult to get to the place of ineffective assistance of counsel.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And it would be even more difficult in this case because at one point Judge Gull told Richard Allen, these guys are not good at what they're doing.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: They're ill serving you.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm kicking them off the case.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And knowing that the judge thought that they were ineffective and not good at their jobs, Richard Allen fought to keep them on the case.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it is hard to – it would be very hard for him to make an argument that these people were ineffective because he was warned.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: At the sentencing, he said, I believe they were effective.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he answered a question from Gull saying, I'm happy with their performance.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It would be very difficult.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, you pretty much – I'm kind of boiling it down, but you kind of have to show up like drunk and high for that.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it has to be a very extreme example for it to be ineffective.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It can't just be like – I feel like they were ineffective from the standpoint of truth and logic and fairness.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's a whole other ballpark when you're talking about that.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So no, I don't think they were ineffective in that sense.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Now the question, do we think more people were involved in the Delphi murders?

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: This is something that was addressed, if I recall correctly, in the post-sentencing press conference.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And what it boils down to is that at least at this point, there is no evidence of anyone else being involved.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: At least there's no evidence good enough to warrant other charges.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And so until such time as such evidence is shown to exist, basically, yeah, there's just not enough evidence.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would say that too.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm open to anything, but I'm also open to him being alone.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm – you know, it just – what matters is what the evidence says.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean I think the closest thing we had was Kagan Klein, a lot of interesting smoke there.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But I very much understand why he has not been charged, and I don't know if they could get enough to charge him.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that phrase, interesting smoke.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: What a fascinating smoke.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, oh.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you're asking the questions.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a question that I think is made for Anya to answer.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, why do you think Delphi became such a magnet for conspiracy theories and bad faith actors who are covering the case?

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Delphi, unfortunately, became the sort of prototype for the sort of do-it-yourself true crime sleuthing that has become rampant on the internet.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a case where there was a follow-along-at-home quality because, hey, the victims captured the image of the killer on their phone and his voice.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So if we look hard enough and we listen hard enough, maybe we'll figure it out.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: In reality, what would have needed to happen is someone who knew Richard Allen would have had to come forward, and that did not happen.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But people felt like we have enough clues to maybe make it work.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're out there trying to figure it out.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Then it goes unsolved for a period of time where it allowed enough, you know, like we're not hearing anything concrete, so maybe it's this guy.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And you had people almost form camps where it's like, this is my person of interest.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This is my person of interest.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like you.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's fight on Reddit.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you had that.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You had a number of different suspects come up that kind of would warrant discussion.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, a lot of the people doing that discussion were fine.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't being disrespectful.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't being harassing.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: They were just curious and they wanted to know.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not painting everyone in that camp with a broad brush.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people were behaving totally fine in ways that I think are commendable and they were just interested in the case.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Others were being jerks.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And then add to that.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the kind of like gasoline spill.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: The defense attorneys who came on to this, Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosey, the original two, lit the match of going with maybe what could be generously called like a frankly somewhat ridiculous theory that kind of catered to some of the people who'd gotten really invested.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was like a cult of people who really wanted it to be Ron Logan.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: They ended up being the people who I think largely carried the Odinism torch, which was funny because it wasn't what they originally wanted, but they kind of ditched Logan and kind of picked it up from there.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think you combination of like it's almost like a forest fire.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You have the kind of very dry conditions and then you have a spark from like a downed power outlet.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's that's kind of what ended up happening in this case.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, I think now we're seeing like Idaho, the Idaho murders that was not unsolved for very long.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But similar things have happened because it's like everything is faster and faster and faster because of social media now.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So while Delphi took a while to build up, this is just I think what it's going to be like for most high profile true crime cases going forward.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And that should scare everybody.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are terror.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not good.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to take this next question.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So ask away.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Could you respond to the criticism about how you would only have a book deal if Richard Allen was found guilty?

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I should note, Shadow of the Bridge will be out in August 2025.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You can that's the new book.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You can preorder it on Amazon and I believe other places.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So check that out.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Preorders really help us.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, I think a lot of the times people jump to conclusions about things they don't understand.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just causes confusion.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And this confusion is started by bad faith actors who don't understand how the world works.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I just want to say very clearly, you don't get a book deal based on the verdict of a trial.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That's just not how the publishing world works.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I can tell you also we made the deal.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We weren't allowed to talk about it for close to a year.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the deal was made even before the photos were leaked.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's nothing in the contract that says, oh, this book is only allowed to be published if there is a guilty verdict.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The publishers care about this case.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They want the story to be told.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not as invested, though, in the day-to-day as we all are.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They just want here is the story of what happened.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Here is who Abby and Libby were.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's what the families went through.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's what happened with the media.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: At no time has our agent or our publisher or anyone said anything to suggest that the deal was contingent on a particular verdict.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The only thing that Anya and I did say, we don't want the book to come out until after there is a verdict.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't say that verdict had to be guilty or innocent.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And furthermore, if he was found guilty, I believe he was guilty, that's an interesting story.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If it had gone the other way and he was acquitted, that would also be an interesting story.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think you'd have a very interesting book either way.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd want to explain it.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd want to have a book that explains, here's what happened.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: How did this high-profile case end in an acquittal?

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That's remarkable.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's move on to the next question.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't we let you answer this one, Ms. Kane?

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: What is the most challenging thing about trying to actually write a book?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this may be just a me problem.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to make it really good.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's...

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I also want to make it good.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, but I'm very perfectionist about how it's written.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm making it kind of beautifully written and comprehensive.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have to talk to a lot of people.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, a lot of people ask us questions, are you going to talk to this person or that person?

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The answer is we're going to try to talk to everyone.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no one on the list where we're like, wow, we didn't think of that.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we're going to try to talk to every person who we possibly can.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to talk to us for the book and you have some sort of perspective, please reach out.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And to be clear, we don't even have to tell people we talk to you.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it doesn't.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to be like...

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we sat down with...

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It can be private.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, it's just...

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: With a story like this, it's really important to us to loop in as many perspectives as possible.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just going to be difficult to, like, get all that in there and make it coherent.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's just about synthesizing all of this in a way that's respectful, thoughtful, and vivid.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's difficult.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But we, you know, I think we're great partners with each other and we're working on it pretty hard.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm hopeful about it at this point.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But we move on to the next category, podcast questions.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask you this because this was your fault.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The reason we're sitting here is because of you.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Why did you decide to start a podcast?

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I've confessed this.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we're touched upon more of this once we get into the personal section of the proceedings.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is the time Anya comes out to Indiana.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: She lives in the great city of New York where she works for a publication called Business Insider.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: For some reason, she's conned them into letting her cover the Burger Chef murders.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: She comes to Indianapolis.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We spend a lot of time together.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And during that process, I'm thinking, well, obviously, this smart, intelligent woman who you've all come to know,

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: she's going to go back to the bright lights of New York City, completely forget Kevin,

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: completely forget Indiana, and I'll never talk to her again.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So my scheme, my little manipulation, my Machiavellian manipulation, my little scheme is if I convince her to do a podcast,

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I at least get to talk to her for an hour every week.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said no.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I said no.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not doing a podcast with you.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely not.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Get away from you, peasant.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But when eventually, like, you know, I wrote my article, we were done.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We kind of stayed friends after that.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we eventually realized we were in love.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And we moved in together.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And we moved in together.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point, I felt comfortable possibly doing a podcast.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Although Kevin really had to convince me.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm, I have a hard, I mean, I, I don't know, like, I'm not shy.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I can be extroverted.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think if people meet me, like, I try to talk to them.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But I have a pretty bad anxiety.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of feel, I felt very, like, I didn't want to put myself out there in a podcast way.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, when we went to the Delphi press conference, we've been reporting on all of this for a long time.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And Kevin was like, let's go talk to some of these people we've been reporting on.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, and I was like, oh, this is so odd.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was like, I was so nervous.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: He had to, like, drag me over to some people.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was fine.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, I just, you know, but it ended up being great.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really enjoyed it.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It was, it was a lot of hard work.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I ultimately get this, like, I left my job at Insider where I previously worked, like, in October of 2022.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, at that point, we had no idea an arrest was coming.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We had no idea.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It just was, I just, I, you know, we were, it became a full-time job for both of us.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I left.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: A couple weeks later, Richard Allen is arrested.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just totally surreal.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was scary to leave that job because I really enjoyed it.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I love the people I worked with.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was a great job in many ways.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But I just, I wanted to do something that wasn't retail reporting.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to challenge myself and kind of have my own business.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm really glad I did it.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you think we'd be this successful?

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They still use some of your content because sometimes I see they're still reposting some of your old stories.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And you also wrote.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's called, they re-up stories.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, they did that when I was there, too.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like they're obsessed with me and they're like, oh, my God, these are the only good art.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're obsessed.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: No, they're not.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And also, Anya did some fine articles there.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Even if you're not interested in business, she wrote a story about when she first moved to Indiana and went to the Indiana State Fair.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's your big, that's my big scoop.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: My first person story about me going to a fair.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you were probably underused there at Business Insider.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't say that.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a great place to work.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really appreciated getting to work with those editors and journalists.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But it just, it was time for me to shake things up in my life and kind of move.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say people ask, like, someone asked us, like, did you expect to have this level of success?

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, no.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we hoped to do it full time.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That would have been really amazing for us no matter what.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're very gratified for all of you listening and supporting us to get us there.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: If anybody is considering doing a podcast, it's, there's lots of great things about it.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Glad to talk to you about it at some point.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But you shouldn't go into it expecting to make any money at it or even expecting to get too many listeners because it is a very crowded marketplace.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Go in there with reduced realistic expectations.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what saved us.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We were like, we're doing this because we are passionate about it.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then when an audience came with that, we were like, we can do something with this.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But we really did not go in.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't monetize for, like, I think the first year or so of the program because that was not the focus for us.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We just wanted to make it really good and really engaging for our audience.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that helped us.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, frankly, for a good portion of that first year, we didn't really have enough of an audience.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, we were much smaller then.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And someone asked, how have we changed and developed?

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We've loosened up a lot.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: If you listen to early episodes, we're, like, in full suit and tie with, like, very stiff and, yes, sir.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, ma'am.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're a lot more, like, we've loosened the tie.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We've taken off the jacket, you know, of the podcast.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: What happened is we would meet people in what Anya charmingly calls real life who would say, gosh, on the podcast, you seem like some unpleasant combination of Frasier and Charles Emerson Winchester.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You just seem so stuffy and unpleasant.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But in real life, you just seem, like, normal.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And, frankly, you're much more likable.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you try to be yourself on the show?

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And we were like, no one wants that for a very long time.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But then I guess people did.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've loosened up.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's, you know, and then it is a full-time job for both of us now.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is all we do.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: This is our job.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes people are surprised by that.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, oh, you know, do you want to talk at, like, you know, 7 p.m.?

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, not during business hours.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, this is our business.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is all we do.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really fun.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a wonderful job.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard work in some ways that you don't expect.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But, again, like, it's been very gratifying.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would not be here if it wasn't for you listening.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a dream to be able to do this level of legal analysis and crime reporting and kind of speak to all of you interesting people.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're incredibly grateful.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that we weren't money motivated or career motivated at first at all, there's some evidence of that in this next question.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: What was the outcome with Ashley Flowers if you were allowed to comment?

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Relatively early on in the history of the program.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We decided to pick a fight with the biggest true crime podcaster in the world.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We're very concerned and interested in the Burger Chef case.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Ashley Flowers did some stuff connected to the Burger Chef case that we had a problem with.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: She also, as you may or may not know, has had a history of some plagiarism allegations.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: She is also, as Anya notes, one of the biggest and most powerful people in the podcast space.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: She also happens to be from Indiana, I believe.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So everybody who we told, we're going to do this episode on Ashley Flowers.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They were like, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, after we did this episode on Ashley Flowers that was highly critical, a lot of – we got froze out from a lot of people.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Audio Chuck sends its regards.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There was actually like literally – oh my god, we can talk more about that later.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But she – I mean, this is the thing about Ashley Flowers.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I do respect her business acumen and sort of things like that.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she should have handled the plagiarism thing better by apologizing to some people.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, we were kind of in the place where we're like, we're going to say what we think and if we tick a lot of people off, okay.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't – I really don't like conflict.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Personally, it makes me really uncomfortable.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not good at it.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But I like even less censoring myself if I believe truly in what I'm saying.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was kind of like, you know.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And just because we had a disagreement with Ashley Flowers over how she handled Burger Chef, that doesn't mean that that's something that has to be written in stone forever.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Because one incident I refer to is a lot is the captain from True Crime Garage did some stuff on Delphi that we weren't a huge fan of.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And Anya wrote him a scathing email.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: A scathing email.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, let's talk.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And we had a long conversation.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like I got to know him.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I got to understand the level of compassion he has and the level of interest he has in some of these cases.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, wow, I was upset and like we might still have a disagreement.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm like, that's really awesome.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's an awesome person.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So we have a lot of respect for both Nick and the captain.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we're going to bury the hatchet with Ashley.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like we would.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But like after she after we did this, there was actually and this kind of gets into the next question a little bit.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There was we kind of got like dogpiled a bit on social media over our coverage of Delphi.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people within podcasting decided to just get really angry at us about, you know, reporting on, you know, stuff.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And so basically she was a part of that.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I always kind of wondered like, you know, she kind of like had a tweet ready to go with that.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So I always found that somewhat interesting and kind of was like interesting.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the kind of long arm of audio Chuck sort of coming back to haunt us?

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And what's amusing about that is her whole stance was like this doesn't help the case and it doesn't help the families of the victims.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And what's amusing is in recent times she came out with her own Delphi hot take, which was basically like was Richard Allen framed?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Or like with did Richard Allen get a fair trial?

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that was it.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like I think it's funny.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I wonder she I wonder she considers does that help the families in this case, given all that's gone on.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But maybe she should do some more research on it, I guess, would be my recommendation.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do have a lot of respect for her as a business as a businesswoman.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: She's incredible.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she's built up a huge thing.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's impressive.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think she's very smart.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I just I think something she did early on.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would be one of those people where if she was just like, yeah, I kind of messed it up.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that would be good enough, I think, for anybody.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not a journalist.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not she doesn't have that background.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's messed up to plagiarize.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also can see how people don't have that background would make some of those mistakes.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think you have to own up to it.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's more important to deal with a mistake rather than like to do everything perfectly, if that makes sense.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Have there ever been times when or both of you have considered quitting podcasting?

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll let Anya in a second.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Every week.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Early on.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we've alluded to the fact we didn't have much of an audience and we weren't getting a lot of feedback from that audience.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So imagine if every week you spent a lot of time preparing like a really big, fancy meal for someone and then you pack it and you climb up to the top of Niagara Falls and you just throw it into the water and watch it disappear.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you never hear from it again.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you go back down to your house and then you do it again and make another big meal to do that the next week.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: That is what podcasting can feel like when you are not lucky enough to have the kind of great responsive audience we now have.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You're working very hard to create things and to try to communicate things and you are putting it out into the world and you are not getting a response.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that can be frustrating.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so certainly many times early on there were times when one or both of us seriously considered, is this really worth it?

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can remember conversations we had.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember at one point we said, if we don't feel more fulfilled by this in like the next six months, let's just not do it anymore.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember that.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think also when I alluded to us kind of getting dogpiled on social media over Delphi, that was something that was upsetting.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: More so because of the social aspect of like feeling ostracized.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: There were a lot of podcasters who up until then we'd been very friendly with.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We'd gone on their shows.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Those they'd gone on ours or we had had, you know, behind the scenes relationships with and talked to in the past.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of them just kind of believed like the worst, like, like things about us without really getting any perspective from us or like getting our side of the story.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And they just sort of dunked on us.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I vividly remember like on Twitter, there was this guy who I had talked to in real life who has a podcast.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was it wasn't even just like they were I mean, what was nuts about it?

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't just like murder sheet messed up.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like he was going around and liking these bizarre tweets about how I was an alcoholic.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was like I'd messed up cases before.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, first of all, not based in reality.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just like spread by people who hate us.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was also like, why are you like obsessively liking this stuff?

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: This is just like and we had messed up.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We hadn't done it.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we were just reporting like it was it was like it was it was really it was disturbing.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like it just felt like very sudden because it was like we think we're getting along with all these people.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We're kind of growing and we're kind of the newcomers in this space.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And then suddenly that's flipped and and they all turn on us without I add.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not saying like, hey, what did you guys do?

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us about that.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And then making a decision like if at least if they'd given us that chance and turned against us, I'd be like, well, they gave us a shot.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But it all just felt very fickle and clicky and high school.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really gratified now because we at that point we were like, we're never going to be friends with anyone in true crime podcasting ever again because we cannot trust any of these people.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They are snakes.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But that is we've kind of come off that.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We really appreciate the community we found with other podcasters who we feel more share our values and understand where we're coming from and we understand where they're coming from.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've made some of those authentic connections with people that I love.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We love Brett Nalas.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We love Nick and the captain.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Jason.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Blair.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's a lot of people like that in that space who I'm just like, I adore.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I feel like they share our values or they at least share that understanding of what we're all trying to achieve here.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But there are a lot of people, I think, in true crime where it's a lot of petty jealousies.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of nonsense.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a lot of people basically like and you see this with cases.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: If everyone starts saying, I think this guy is innocent, then it's like lemmings off a cliff.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And that also that goes with everything.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like when I just don't, I don't like two-faced people.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that at all.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was just upsetting.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And it made me kind of like, why do I want to be part of this community where people are like this?

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, we got over it.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So moving on, what is Kevin's relationship to Kevin Tyler Greenlee if you listen to the end of the program?

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Secret son.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't say that.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: If you listen to the end of the program, we say the music for the program is done by Kevin Tyler Greenlee.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So at one point when I'm a kid, I see a cartoon.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I barely remember it.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But a character, maybe it was Bugs Bunny.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it was Daffy Duck.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows at this late date?

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I've tried to find it since and I can't.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But this character makes a movie.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And usually during the opening credits, the names and the titles change.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But in this case, in this character's film, the only thing that changed was the title.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say, in other words, this movie directed by Bugs Bunny, starring Bugs Bunny, written by Bugs Bunny, produced by Bugs Bunny.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, oh, that's pretty funny.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when Ani and I were putting the podcast together, I said, wouldn't it be funny if we replicated that?

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't that be just hilarious if we found somebody with the same name as me to perform another function on the show?

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And Kevin Greenlee is a relatively common name.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so sometimes I get emails for other Kevin Greenleys.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I, in the past, had gotten emails for a Kevin Greenlee who was a composer of music.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Anya, wouldn't it just be hilarious if we commissioned a theme for the murder sheet from this other Kevin Greenlee?

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And it would just be like everything is done by Kevin Greenlee.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to crowd me out of credit for my own show.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I thought that would be very, very funny.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And what it's done, I don't think anyone has laughed at it.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think anyone has chuckled ruefully and said, oh, Kevin, what a wry commentary on the male ego or whatever.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02]: People just say, what?

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this Kevin and Anya's son?

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this Kevin's brother?

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: My favorite thing is the brother thing.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's two Kevin Greenleys in the same household.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like his brother's also named Kevin.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And then some people say, well, then they could go by their middle names, which, yes.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, what?

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't George Foreman do that?

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: George Foreman did that.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're in a George Foreman family.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The son thing is funny.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, then some people are like, I think he's a son from a previous marriage.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he's an older son.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And my favorite thing is when we have haters sometimes, they'll send us hate mail.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, you stink and I hate you and you're bad.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, your son's music sucks.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like he's not our son.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, his music is awesome.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And you should check it out.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We have never actually met him.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02]: He's no relation to us.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: A professional, nice man who I think did a great job.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That's all he is to us.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We appreciate him.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We think he's great.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But we are not related to him.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Very reasonable rates.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Reach out to him.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And he did like a first draft that we thought, well, this doesn't feel quite right.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So he did a second draft.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: But then the first draft was so good.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That became the theme of our sister podcast.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, mystery to me.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we did some.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, he's wonderful to work with.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So we'd really strongly recommend him.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But he is not our son.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: He's not the Nepo baby of true crime.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He's just a hardworking man.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And we really haven't had much to do with him, communicate with him since the podcast started.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: A couple of times a year, I do end up sending an email to him that I've gotten by accident.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people will listen to this and half listen to it and be like, oh, my God, they're estranged from their son.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us about your work style, Kevin, and your routine.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Are we night owls?

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we collaborate?

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: How the heck do we do all of this?

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: How do we break down the work?

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we break it down?

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say this.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have an editor.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We edit everything.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So if something's bad, then it's our fault.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We do the hosting, obviously.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We do all the technical issues.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a wonderful person who runs our Facebook group, Elle, who's the best and is a queen and just does a great job.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, we do most of everything.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's all come down to us.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Both of us are capable of doing any aspect of it.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not like Anya does all of this and Kevin does all of that.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin often needs to get out of the house, like to kind of go take a break, take a walk once a day.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need that as much.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I probably should do it, but I don't.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like I'm significantly at this point, not significantly, I'm at least somewhat faster than you at editing.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And we kind of started off the same.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I've gotten faster.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You're better than me at parsing down research of what really matters.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I tend to get way too in the weeds.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I am stuck in the briar patch.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, that happened to me the other day.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I got my hair caught in this like thorn, but it was a mess.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I was almost yelling for help.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Fortunately, I was able to snap the branch off and then it was embarrassing.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, I digress.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And we I tend to work.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I need I need lists.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I need people to write if someone's like, hey, do this.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to remember in two minutes.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I need people to write things down.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I need people to give me lists and I need music when I'm not editing audio.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to work listening to music.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I've always been like that.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I just kind of need that.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: For Delphi episodes,

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think both of us are heavily involved in every aspect of it.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Usually we're talking about it beforehand and say, what do we want to say about this?

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02]: How far do we want to go here or there?

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Cheat sheet.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I usually do two cases.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You do two cases.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a lot of episodes where like a particular crime or a case might attract one of our interests.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that person will be primarily in charge of that particular episode.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's that's exactly right.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we can kind of we try to have you know, we try to do stuff that interests us and is enjoyable.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And also kind of I learned this from insider.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to find the part of the diagram where our audience is interested and we're interested.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So we don't want to just be totally flinging our own weird interest at you all the time.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we will.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But we want to kind of also do what you're interested in.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So and even if there's an episode like I'm in charge and Anya will be making contributions, obviously, and vice versa.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing that amuses me is people sometimes are like, oh, man, like especially people who don't like us.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: They'll be like, Kevin was obviously horrified with what Anya said.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like we both sign off on everything.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And also it's not a live program.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not a live program.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So if Anya says something she shouldn't, which incidentally happened earlier in this very recording, we can we can stop and we can edit it out.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And none.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_02]: No one's the wiser.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Precisely.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not like Anya goes off the rails.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Nor does Kevin, in case anyone was wondering.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_02]: No one wonders that.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of I'm going to say this one weird thing about our work styles.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to journalism, I this might surprise people because people see me as more, you know, fiery or yelling or whatever.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always yelling and crying.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like on the show, maybe at the same time.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's weird because you're a lot more swashbuckling with journalism.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to do stuff, break stuff, do stuff.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a lot more conservative.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, if we do, I'm like having like that anxiety, like prophesizing.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if we do this, then that maybe means that we, you know, like I'm like thinking about you tend to be a lot more like let's just deal with it later.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm more like, let's hold back.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I read a lot of political books and I always hated it when like the Bob Woodwards of the world would wait until the publication of a book to reveal things.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: If you know something, share it with your audience.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's people think it's fun to have secrets.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not fun to have secrets.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's fun to share information.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's true.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We did not go into this business to keep secrets from people.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So are you saying I'm like Bob Woodward?

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like trying to hide everything for the book?

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: No, so I'm saying because of that.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That's weird.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I always try to push to get things out on the podcast.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I always want to get things out because I hate sitting on stuff.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also kind of sometimes see things as like if we do this, then it precludes us from doing this later.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I always try to think about what the long-term ramifications and my motto is sometimes that like especially in a sensitive case involving the murder of two kids, you can always do something later.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you put something out, you can't take it back.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that was, you know, something that we learned early on, you know, in the reporting process.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be really thoughtful and careful because it's not even just always about like what you're putting out there.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about explaining it to the extent that people will understand it and not, you know, kind of take away the wrong things.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's move on to another category, which you have categorized as crime.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: All of our crimes that we're going to confess to now.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, will murder sheet ever cover another trial?

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We find trial reporting and court reporting very – well, court reporting, but you know what I mean, going to court and reporting on it.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Very fulfilling.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we'd love to do this if the circumstances were right.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Which one?

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It would have to be the right circumstances.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll remind people that Delphi was singular.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There was no cameras and very limited seating.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So like some trials it may be less crucial and people might be less interested because they could just watch it on TV.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think if the right trial came up, we would be interested in absolutely doing it again.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00]: People have asked us a lot about the Idaho trial.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's currently scheduled for the summer if that coincides with when our book is coming out.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That may not be possible, but it could always get pushed back.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess we'll see.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, you and Kevin seem so close and always on the same page.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Are there any cases where the two of you are in complete disagreement?

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: At Times and Burger Chef, we've had disagreements.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I think at one time I was more in favor of being more interested in the robbery gang theory than you were.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of focus on a little bit more.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not like we've disagreed.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think you think it's important and I'm not convinced that it's the right thing.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've since cooled on it a little bit.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those theories that I think both of us once in a while kind of go through and we're like, this must be it.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we're like, I don't know.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: These are the problems.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: We've also have had pretty strong disagreements behind the scenes on Delphi.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We have had extremely strong disagreements on Delphi.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We've had extremely strong.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, weirdly enough, we switched positions on Delphi quite a bit where we've like, I'm for favor of X and your Y.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I end up on your side and you switched.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We actually do that a lot.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_00]: When we have a disagreement, sometimes we'll end up convincing the other one and then we're on opposite sides, which is kind of funny but annoying.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we've had strong disagreements on Delphi.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we both have been right about certain things about Delphi and then wrong about other things.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of interesting.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we kind of – it's not like you've been consistently wrong and I've always turned out to be right.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like we've really balanced it out in a weird way.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, is there a case?

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: A case you have not yet covered that interests you the most?

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to hate this answer, guys.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You are going to hate this answer.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I hate this answer.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Buzz off and you have to answer it too, sir.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see about that.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're going to do it.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first Englishman executed in the New World was a man named George Kendall who may or may not have been a spy.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He was executed at Jamestown in probably November of 1607.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to do something on that at some point.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's interesting that the first capital punishment in the first permanent English settlement in North America.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't say New World because that's not accurate.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_00]: There were people living here.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Powhatan Confederacy had the land of Virginia that they were in.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So anyways, I might want to do something on George Kendall.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, everybody.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's my little interest.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's true crime.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was executed.

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, I think, yeah, that's probably the big one.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I periodically get interested in art crimes.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's not really any murders involved.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I bet there's some art murders.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I bet.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You could probably find some.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there an art crime that you wanted to look into?

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing that really would seem at all appropriate for the program.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to go down to a question.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, what are your thoughts on the new superintendent pick?

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_00]: On the new superintendent pick?

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So Indiana superintendent.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Is retiring.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_02]: A new gentleman has been picked behind the scenes.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We hear a lot of positive things about him.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know too much about him.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: His name is Captain Anthony Scott.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know too much about him personally,

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but I have heard a lot of very positive things behind the scenes.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So we obviously welcome him.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's going to have a lot.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to have big shoes to fill replacing Superintendent Carter.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's cool.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone asked us, do we think the Koberger case will go to trial in 2025?

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know, but we intend to cover that more in the new year.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's move on to the final category, the dangerous category.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The danger zone.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Personal.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Personal.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, you're both such history buffs.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: What is it about history that draws you in?

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: The drama, the people, the stories.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I love them.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I love it so much.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I love.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like people are always people.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's fun to look back at ancient history.

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you mentioned like Romans would write modeling poems about their dogs that passed away.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And reading Ben Johnson's poetry about losing a child.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It just makes you feel connected to humanity in a way because you're like people have always been people.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they do horrible things that are like bizarre and crazy.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But don't we also do that?

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like, you know, it just fascinates me.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I love reading about people.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I at one time thought about maybe trying to go into academia.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But like the thing is, I'm too – my interests are just stupid.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's – I'm like you need to be into like the material culture of a time and place and like really getting into it.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm more like, oh my gosh, I can't believe the drama that happened in Jamestown.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And like no one – like that's not what you're supposed to do.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't – and also there's no jobs in academia and it's like just so competitive.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So like I just know.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But I loved – I just love the people.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_02]: History is full of great stories, sex, power, violence, corruption, decadence.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all there for you.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like our lives.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just kidding.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: What?

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Jesus, Anya.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, what is your favorite color?

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Purple.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really a visual guy.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like bright colors.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Frank Sinatra's favorite color was orange.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So why don't I just say that's what –

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not a bright color.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm saying.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like bright colors.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: He likes orange.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's my favorite color.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought you liked purple.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you told me.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Purple is good too.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy – as long as it's not like neon yellow or something, I'm happy to adopt whatever favorite color you want me to have.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a visual person.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I have trouble recognizing people.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just not a good visual person.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_00]: If Kevin never doesn't recognize you, don't get offended.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He just – that is a struggle.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember people's names.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember details about them.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember what people look like.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember me?

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That didn't sound very confident.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_00]: What's your favorite type of cereal?

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: See, my nightmare is I have allergies to a lot of things.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can't really enjoy the variety of cereal I would like to enjoy.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_02]: When I was a kid, my absolute favorite cereal that I craved like a passion would be Fruity Pebbles.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But it has food coloring in it I can't have now because it gives me migraine.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But what you could do also – people always talk about Rice Krispie treats.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You can make that – it doesn't have to be Rice Krispies.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You can take something like Fruity Pebbles and you can make Fruity Pebbles treats.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're quite good.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I like Rice Krispies.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Mine is – I like the simple things.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I like cornflakes.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You like me?

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You're simple.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a simple man.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You're one of the simple men.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I really like cornflakes.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't – when I was a kid, I liked sweet cereals.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But now I'm like, nah, that's too much.

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That's too decadent for me.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I can do cornflakes.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I can do Rice Krispies raisin bran if I'm getting really crazy.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I have kind of boring cereal tastes, which is very funny given that you've made me out to be this cereal bandit of the world.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, do you like board games, card games?

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I was a very competitive child.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I have three younger sisters.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm – this is my board game story.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember me and my youngest sister played a game of Stratego.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That was one of the most stressful things.

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We – for some reason, that would be funny to be playing like the Supermarine song from the Dunkirk soundtrack by Hans Zimmer, which is a very stressful song if you've ever listened to it.

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was really intense.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was winning.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And she came from behind and beat me.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was devastating.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was always – I think I was always a little too intense about board games as a kid.

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really play them that frequently as an adult.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But I remember enjoying like Risk, Stratego.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't very good at anything, but I would definitely take it very seriously.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Cards Against Humanity can be kind of fun.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Apples to apples.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I always hated Monopoly because I would always get my butt kicked at everything.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But nowadays we play blackjack sometimes with our friends.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't know what I was doing, but I somehow got a double blackjack.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm still bragging about it.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was fun.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: What about you, Kevin?

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoy Risk.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You're a risk, man.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: We had a Lord of the Rings risk.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you'd move the – my family is very nerdy.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd move the ring down to Mordor.

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was always fun.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, I would always –

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know what that means, ring and Mordor.

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not a token man, I know.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya, have you ever been mushroom hunting?

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I will say to the best of my knowledge, I've never even eaten a complete mushroom.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Spat it out.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I'll take a little nibble.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Mushrooms are good.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that people who are not from the United States heard about mushroom hunting through Delphi and imagined us crazy Americans going around with like AK-47s like shooting mushrooms in the woods.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's – I've never been mushroom hunting.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I always associate mushroom hunting being into true crime with finding dead bodies, which I'm sure doesn't happen that often hopefully for the mushroom hunters.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, it sounds like it could be a fun day in the woods.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know that much about it.

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But I've never been hunting either and I've also never been fishing.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm very much a suburban city girl in some ways, I guess.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, do you like Twin Peaks, the television show that was done by David Lynch?

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So I do.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I really only – to me, like when they brought it back, it was like too kind of freaky and I was just like, I don't know, it's just kind of scary.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't really watch that as much.

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But I like the – I like the – I just kind of like the cozy vibes of the original.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say I'm like – I think it was a little too surreal for me at times where I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I liked it.

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, I do like Twin Peaks.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you watch Twin Peaks?

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I watched it during its original broadcast.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think of it?

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I was looking forward to it.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: The great magazine Entertainment Weekly was profiled in advance and I said, by gum, I'll watch this program.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just fun.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I just like – I really like it and I just like the kind of small town kind of mystery thing.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you – did you like it?

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Did it live up to your Entertainment Weekly expectations?

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought it was fine.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So you weren't like the biggest fan, but you liked it.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: David Lynch also – I haven't seen it in a long time.

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: At the time, I liked Blue Velvet and the movie he did – is it Wilder's Heart with Nicolas Cage and Laura Dern, I believe?

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You said that's basically like a very violent Elvis movie?

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That's really funny.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think – I always really liked Dale Cooper, the FBI agent in that because he's obsessed with like food and like pies and coffee and he's just very upbeat.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought his character was really delightful.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So I always really liked that.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But –

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a question about Lanny.

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you already kind of answered that?

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we kind of answered it.

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: What's her health update?

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Lanny's doing great.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: She had some medical procedure recently, but she's awesome and she's doing amazing.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And we talked about how she was adopted and how she probably robbed banks in the Lafayette area and the Indiana State Police is probably looking for her to this day.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a question about me and my practice of law, particularly intellectual property.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: How did I get into that?

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be one of those frustrating answers.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It probably raises more questions than it answers.

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But so after I get out of law school, there's some stuff going on that I think you'd probably find boring.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But it prevented me from practicing as aggressively as I would have liked.

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so at some point during that, there's a science fiction writer you may or may not have heard of named Harlan Ellison, who had a reputation for being a very contentious person.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: A person who was seen as being very formidable, very scary.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He sued a publisher, a small publisher that I have a lot of respect and admiration for.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This was a long time.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think black back maybe in 2006.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I was very upset and I got into lots of aggressive discussions on Internet message boards about it.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And the publisher he was suing, I should clarify, is Fantagraphics, which publishes some of the finest comic books in the world.

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this was a case that particularly attracted the attention of people in the comic book community.

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there were even times when I would be having dialogue on some of these message boards back and forth with Harlan Ellison himself.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And as a result of that, a number of people in the comic book world who saw those thoughts that I handled that very, very well.

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And they started reaching out to me.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you handled Harlan Ellison.

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I have this problem with the work I'm doing in my intellectual property.

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you help me with this?

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you help me with this?

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so suddenly I just found myself getting a lot of business from clients that way.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That's wild.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're beefed with Harlan Ellison with intellectual property law.

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of that stuff is no longer on the Internet.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think at some point early on in our relationship, didn't you either look it up or I steer you towards some of my back and forth with Ellison?

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You're the lawyer on the edge of tomorrow.

[01:07:01] Yeah.

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't he write that episode of Star Trek?

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: He wrote.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: A version of it.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: He wrote a version of City on the Edge of Tomorrow.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: No, City on the Edge of Forever.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: City on the Edge of Forever.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, it was a stupid lawsuit he filed.

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And it threatened the existence of a very important publisher.

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a jerk move.

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I communicated that to him repeatedly.

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Good for you, sir.

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you read some of that?

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Did I read some of your back and forth with him?

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you did, didn't you?

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I did.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I did.

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, dang, this guy's awesome.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Talking about you, not Harlan Ellison.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That'd be pretty bad.

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're not really still practicing that much because you're-

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing this.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: You're focused on this.

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you ever consider another specialty?

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I was always interested in criminal law, too.

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This is-

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Does Anya have any juicy stories from her business beat days?

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Juicy is probably not what I would say, but I have some maybe interesting ones.

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: This is more funny.

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember me and this woman who worked in social media at Insider, we were sent to cover an event with Howard Schultz, who is the founder of Starbucks.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was giving an award to some people for their charitable work.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was honestly one of the most awkward things.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm already pretty awkward, so once something awkward happens to me, it's just spiral from there.

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we go to this thing, and there are all these chairs set up, and the PR people know we're coming and we're pressed, so they want to give us good seats and whatnot, and preferential treatment, so we write it up.

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And they kind of kick these women out of these seats for us.

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was kind of like, you don't have to do that.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, no, these are your seats.

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Da-da-da.

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like a whole big deal.

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just like, I'm dying of embarrassment already, because that feels kind of mean.

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh my god.

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So we sit there.

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then Howard Schultz gives this whole talk about how these women were doing these amazing things for charity.

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he's like, where are they?

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And it turns out they were the women who got kicked out so I could sit there.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like dying.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It was so awkward.

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen video of this on YouTube.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's awful.

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I blacked out most of it.

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I can say that in my coverage, which was retail-focused again, I can give you stereotypes of all the different PR teams.

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: The meanest flax, as they're called, or PR professionals that I met who said very mean things and sent me a very mean email was those working for Amazon.

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They were really tough.

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were also pretty harsh.

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember being on phone calls with them.

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, who are your sources?

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be like, I'm not going to tell you.

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was intense.

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Walmart I always had a pretty good relationship with because they'd be always constantly annoyed by me.

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like they at least, like, they'd talk to me and they felt I was fair because I'd ask them for their perspective.

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think they were always kind of exasperated but nice.

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the funniest people, Costco, when I was there, did not have a PR team.

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't do any marketing.

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They would have a bizarre Google form that you could fill out to request comment.

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And then inevitably, within a few days, a woman named Muriel would respond to you and say, request denied.

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is Costco is so popular.

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have to do any marketing or any PR.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to write about their pumpkin pies no matter what.

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember I'd be like, please tell me how many pumpkin pies you sold.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And they'd be like, no, get out of here.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was always kind of funny.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: On a more dark side, one of the worst things that happened when I was reporting there was I did a piece on a company with another reporter.

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We were, you know, kind of investigating working conditions at Amazon Fulfillment Centers.

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And we did the story.

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It came out.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It was whatever.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, like, a while later, I got an email from somebody who was like, oh, do you have this source's contact information?

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a worker who was named in the piece.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, why do you want it?

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And they – this other reporter sent me a link for this guy who I had talked to I had interviewed pretty extensively.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Then took a gun into an Amazon store.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And he didn't kill anybody or hurt anybody or shoot anybody.

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was awful.

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I – it was really – it shook me afterwards because I was like, oh, my gosh.

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, was he almost revving himself up talking to me about this?

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I almost felt guilty about it.

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I felt, like, awful.

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It was really sad.

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a young guy, too.

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I just – yeah.

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The whole thing was – he went to prison.

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But I remember I just kind of had a – I kind of, like – I really kind of was very upset by that when it happened.

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: On a lighter note, how did you guys meet?

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: This is – so there is a newspaper research site called newspapers.com where you can look up newspaper articles on virtually any subject under the sun.

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can even, like, clip them and save them to your account.

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And the clipping is public.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I – at this time, I have been getting increasingly interested slash obsessed with the Burger Chef murders.

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm talking to one of the original investigators on the case.

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And he is telling me that one thing I should do is look and see who else is interested in the case.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the actual killer could be out there actively clipping articles about the case to relive his glory days.

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so with that in mind, I go back to the site newspapers.com.

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I've clipped numerous articles about the case.

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I start looking to see is there someone else out there who is also clipping articles as avidly as I am.

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I noticed that there is indeed such a person.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe the profile name was like AIT Kane or something.

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I do a little bit of research and soon find out that this person probably isn't the killer because she seems to be a young reporter in New York City.

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I decide what the heck.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I figured out her email address and wrote her an email saying basically,

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you're interested in the Burger Chef?

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: What's up?

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And that, of course, was Anya.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, at that point, was like, how the heck?

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what?

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Did I file something without like that?

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, literally, my thought was, did I get drunk and file a FOIA and forget about it?

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But I had not.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin was just really good at Internet stalking, which I respected because I also consider myself quite good at finding stuff on the Internet and finding people.

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And we kind of talked.

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was very generous, gave me sort of his Rolodex on Burger Chef.

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just kind of did the article, came out with it.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And then afterwards, we kind of maintained a friendship.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We would continue talking and chatting.

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people want to know, like, who said, who fell in love first?

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, who said I love you first?

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: What I think with this, we both are probably falling in love.

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think we both were like, you know, like, I didn't really recognize that at first.

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Or at least I kind of did, but I was almost like.

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So I said it first, in other words.

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You said it first, and you were more open about it first.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, oh, geez.

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, yeah, I'm pretty.

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I was totally obsessed with you.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I was really, really.

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And I still am.

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're a very obsessible person.

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, whoa.

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I realized, wait, I'm pretty sure I'm in love, too, because I get really, really excited to talk to him.

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking about him constantly.

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to text him all the time.

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to spend more time with him.

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And all this stuff is that love.

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know.

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You sleuthed it out.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I sleuthed it.

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are the clues.

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt really dumb because I was like, wait.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I fell in love, but I didn't really.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't know it.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Recognize.

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, just we're really good friends.

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We're really, really good.

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: He's my, like, this guy just suddenly became my best friend in, like, two seconds.

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah.

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I was really, really obsessed with you in that way.

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And we've talked about this on the show before.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And it makes me realize that there's something else that maybe some people haven't heard about or might be curious about.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a kind of an odd thing.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to hear an odd thing, I've got good news for you.

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So, at some point, probably two or three years ago, we gave, like, a one or two-sentence version of that story on some appearance somewhere.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were then contacted by somebody who has a production company that did romantic comedy nonfiction podcasts or something.

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they wanted, and we agreed, they wanted to do a podcast episode about us meeting and falling in love.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was an odd process because they did an interview with us.

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the person who interviewed us wrote a script distilling what we said.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they sent the script to two actors who then played Kevin and Anya talking about that story we just told you.

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is very strange to hear.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really cute, though.

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's called When Anya Met Kevin.

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's from the When I Met You series from Meet Cute.

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And you should look it up.

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really cute.

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's odd because it's someone who's talking, and they say they're Kevin, but it ain't me.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And someone's talking and saying they're Anya, and it's not her.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's acting, Kevin.

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They're actors.

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm just saying it's strange.

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying it is strange.

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, we – I mean, I don't know.

[01:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: When did you realize you loved me?

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how did you figure that out?

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Was it just the same thing where you were like –

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm more comfortable recognizing feelings like that than you are.

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think I realized it much before you did.

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: How did you realize it?

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I loved you.

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You're just like, yep, there it is.

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel very grateful because I feel like we wouldn't have met each other otherwise because we're from very different places.

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And where were we?

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Anya lived in one of the suburbs of New York City, basically.

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you lived in Indianapolis.

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, wow.

[01:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a little bit of an age gap.

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[01:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There's an extraordinary age gap.

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I'm just kidding.

[01:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But to me –

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a pretty big age gap.

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty big.

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And, oh, God, we're going to get a discourse on this.

[01:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that what's going to happen?

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, we were kind of like – it was one of those things where we're so similar in so many ways.

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the odd thing.

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We grew up in very different places.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We have an age gap.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But we still managed to be very similar.

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So one thing people talk about with age gaps is like, oh, what do you talk about?

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have the same frame of reference.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we have very similar weird frame of references because we both watched a lot of old movies growing up.

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And that somehow seems to have formed, you know, kind of – like, we're just very similar personality-wise in many respects.

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though I'm sure it comes off on the show like I'm more talkative and chatty and Kevin's quieter.

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But baseline.

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're very similar.

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up with a pretty serious speech impediment.

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So that makes me tend to be quieter.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But, yeah, age gap couples unite.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're in an age gap, let us know.

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: As long as it's not a problematic one.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's see.

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: How do we make it work, Anya?

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we make it all work?

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we work so well together?

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we work with someone we live with?

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of people feel like that would be difficult.

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: What's our secret?

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for – if you're considering working with your spouse, it is – you know, it's not – it's one of those things like I don't think that would work for everyone.

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean you don't have a beautiful, perfect relationship that's wonderful.

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that, like, you need to be compatible workmates as well as life mates.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's something to consider if you're considering that because it can put a lot of pressure.

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And we happen to just work very well together, which is nice.

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We both have a passion for this show and what we do and the reporting we do.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really fun for us.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It can be stressful.

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But if we – you know, like when we got an interview with Jerry Holman, we were like, wow, this is really cool.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is something we've been really, you know, wanting to do that talks to someone who is directly involved in this case.

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So when you have a passion for something and you share that and you can both get excited about your work, that helps a lot too.

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But we try to separate things into boundaries.

[01:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We try to have a business mode and a family mode.

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We really try to not work in the evenings and on weekends.

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We have violated that a lot recently just because of the trial kind of messing everything up.

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like I really respect you and appreciate your insights.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So even if we disagree about something at work, you know, you don't want to make anything personal.

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to just be like, let's hear out our disagreement or our differences on what we should do and try to make the best business decision for both of us.

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think we work together?

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we work very well together.

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We have similar work styles and yeah, we've divided the work in such a way that I think it works.

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: The workflow is great.

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You are a very thoughtful person, very intelligent, very articulate.

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a real pleasure and an honor to work with you.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you have a special strength in doing interviews and getting people to feel comfortable enough with us to even do an interview.

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're a real delight to work with.

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Aw, you're a delight to work with.

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for reading that cue card so well.

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we have fun together.

[01:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that helps.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We have fun doing our jobs together.

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And Kevin's a really fun person to hang out with.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: As is Anya.

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Aw.

[01:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I think someone wanted to know, do we picture ourselves having kids in the future?

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Answer is yes.

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Despite all the horrible stuff we talk about on the show.

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be something we'd want to do.

[01:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody asked about, aside from reading, because we talk a lot about reading.

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: What are our favorite downtime activities?

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: What do we do when we're just hanging out around the house other than reading?

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Recently, we've been watching a lot of Parks and Rec together, which is an awesome show set in Indiana.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really fun.

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And we both really enjoy it.

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We like to kind of sometimes, like recently we started watching a lot of like, we'll just get into weird projects.

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, we're going to watch a lot of Clint Eastwood movies.

[01:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why.

[01:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We just kind of want to do it.

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoy eating Pez.

[01:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's not like an activity.

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: For me it is.

[01:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I take it pretty seriously.

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We like to go on walks.

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We like to walk around in parks or around our block, go to different things.

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we try to go to like comedy shows a little bit, but we're not really that social, honestly.

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Write some fiction?

[01:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: We write fiction.

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of need to process life.

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you do it as well, kind of in the evening sometimes.

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's fun.

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But we kind of just kind of hang out.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We're kind of homebodies.

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're not super outgoing.

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll try to go to a concert and be, you know, cool every once in a while.

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're kind of nerds.

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We spend a lot of time with each other, which is fun.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think somebody wanted to know, have we traveled overseas?

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: What's our ideal vacation location and activity?

[01:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And have we ever been to Canada, specifically Saskatchewan?

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Never been to Saskatchewan, but I've been to Montreal.

[01:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been to Quebec.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been to Niagara Falls.

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been to Windsor, Ontario.

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I love Canada.

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's beautiful.

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But I've not been to Saskatchewan.

[01:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And you love Canada, right, Kevin?

[01:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You're obsessed with Niagara Falls.

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I love Niagara Falls.

[01:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never been to Saskatchewan.

[01:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But, of course, like any reasonable, right-thinking person, I've watched a lot of Corner Gas, which is a Canadian sitcom which takes place in Saskatchewan.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That is a delightful show.

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I've watched some of it with you, and it's really cute and fun.

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Ideal vacation, I would love to go to—

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You've been overseas.

[01:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been overseas.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I have not.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[01:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: We went to Hawaii recently, but I guess that doesn't count because it's the United States.

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been to Spain and Ireland.

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of cousins in Ireland.

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we visited some of them, and they're awesome.

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Ireland is the best.

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You can tell from my name that I'm Irish.

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: My grandparents are from Ireland.

[01:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then my dad's side of the family is super Irish, too, but they came over in, like, the 1800s.

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And Ireland is the best.

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Spain is beautiful.

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was many years ago.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah, I love—traveling is fun.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And the one I really want to go to is Italy.

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, like, Rome, the Vatican, Pompeii, all that.

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I love Roman history, and I'm Catholic, so I feel like I should go to Italy at some point.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be really cool.

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Someone says, where would you like to go if time was not a factor, by which I think we're talking about time travel?

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I said Jamestown, 1607.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: As long as I could disguise myself because there were no women, there were no English women there.

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And as long as I could also have fresh water and my own food supply that I could hide from everyone else because I wouldn't, you know.

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't want to mess up the time-space continuum.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah.

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Where would you go back in time to?

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the early Roman Empire would be interesting.

[01:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I love the Letters of Pliny, who was writing around that time.

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of great writing done, then, that has been lost that I would love to have a chance to read.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd go with your iPhone and just start, like, taking pictures over their shoulder.

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Rome would be pretty cool.

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But I gotta say, I gotta say Jamestown.

[01:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it would suck because everyone was dying.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, as long as I could kind of, like, do my own thing and not be part of that, I don't want to die of salt poisoning.

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm not about that.

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I just, if I could almost go and more observe, that would be what I would prefer to do.

[01:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I want to know what all the drama was and what everyone was so fighting over.

[01:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want the tea, in other words.

[01:25:47] So.

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's what that person was asking about, but that's what we answered.

[01:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You.

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Where would you go for just a normal vacation that doesn't involve time travel?

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I'd love to visit Rome today.

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we want to go to Lutley.

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty cool.

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You are well-known and celebrated as one of this nation's premier fans of Nancy Drew.

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm not.

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So what would you say are some of the best Nancy Drews?

[01:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: First one I read when I was six was a dancing puppet one.

[01:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I remember thinking the one, the Velvet Hood one was crazy and it is.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the one with the cover that looks like it's Nancy Drew versus the Zodiac Killer.

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, moss-covered mansions also completely unhinged.

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Redgate Farm unhinged.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's Nancy Drew against a cult that looks like they're dressed like the Ku Klux Klan.

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what was I reading?

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then I think I liked, like, in, like, legitimate-liked, like, missing map.

[01:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I remember I was really scared by the secret of the old attic because there were, like, spiders in it.

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, spoiler.

[01:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I think the Tolling Bell was a good one.

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of good.

[01:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I was obsessed with those as a kid.

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I really thought that my teenage years would be spent, like, driving around in a blue convertible.

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Where I was going to get that, I don't know.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But when I was six, I was determined.

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, solving mysteries with my friend, friends and boyfriend.

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, that did not end up happening when I was 18.

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was kind of sad.

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But I did, I did always love mysteries and crime fiction and sort of stuff like that.

[01:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Nancy solves a lot of crimes that are not, like, murder.

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: She solves a lot of, like, fraud against elderly people.

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is actually a serious issue.

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I appreciate that.

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of smuggling.

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of, a lot of, a lot of smuggling.

[01:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I wish we lived in a world where, like, that was the biggest problem going on in the community.

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That smuggling and people being, you know, trying to scheme elderly spinsters out of their inheritance.

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, I mean, we could probably deal with that better.

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: What is the greatest accomplishment of your life so far?

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me it is the fact that, uh, I'm this old guy.

[01:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm fat.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm out of shape.

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, no.

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing?

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't look too good.

[01:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You look adorable.

[01:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And somehow I was able to win the heart of a beautiful, smart, sophisticated New York woman named Anya Kane.

[01:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Aw, that's really sweet.

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say winning your heart was my accomplishment, too.

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And now it's just going to sound like you'd be stealing from me.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm plagiarizing.

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, well, I, I, I adore you.

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, winning your heart was my biggest accomplishment.

[01:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and we're really, you know, we're, that, that, that's the biggest accomplishment of our lives.

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm, I'm proud of what we've accomplished, uh, with, with the coverage of the different crimes we do.

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're really hope to kind of, uh, grow, um, from there, um, and, and, and kind of just continue to expand.

[01:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess one thing I'm exceptionally proud of as well to talk about Murder Sheet is the fact that you trust us with your time and interest and, and you kind of give us that time.

[01:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And that means a lot because you could be doing anything else.

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You could be listening to any other show, but you're here with us.

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to continue to earn that trust and earn that, uh, and, and respect your time.

[01:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, um, we just want to thank you.

[01:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, without you being here, we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be able to do any of this.

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We wouldn't have done any of the reporting.

[01:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We wouldn't have covered the trial.

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And just, I just, I guess, like, I just want to express immense gratitude.

[01:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll never be able to go around and show up at each of your houses and say thank you, but I want to.

[01:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, you know, just, uh, thank you.

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I really hope that everyone, uh, you know, had a lovely holiday season and is going to have a wonderful 2025 and just be safe and that you and your family are safe and happy.

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And just, um, thank you.

[01:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening.

[01:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[01:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[01:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So this holiday season, we want to sincerely thank our latest sponsor, Quince.

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a wonderful company that's all about making the finer things in life really accessible for everybody.

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That means Italian leather handbags.

[01:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That means gold jewelry and items.

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But it especially means their wonderful line of Mongolian cashmere products.

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So sweaters, things like that.

[01:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And not just, as you so astutely noted, not just that.

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: There are other things they offer.

[01:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, for many years, I thought, well, wouldn't it be fun to dress like Colonel Hogan from Hogan's Heroes?

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: He always wears this bomber jacket.

[01:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But you go to these stores, you go to these online marketplaces, and these bomber jackets, ridiculously high price.

[01:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody wants to look like Colonel Hogan.

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But Quince offers that at an affordable price.

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And they even threw in some quirky side characters to help you dig holes in the yard, which has frankly been pretty inconvenient for our neighbors and me.

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm glad you're having a good time.

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was your goal.

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm curious, because we both got to select some Quince products to purchase.

[01:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And your goal was...

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're not...

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that if you buy this great jacket, you're going to look like a character from a TV show that maybe you haven't even watched.

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You're just going to look good because he was a charming character.

[01:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a charming character.

[01:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And he had a good fashion sense.

[01:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think you...

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just fascinated by the way your mind works, I guess.

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But no, I think you look really cute in that bomber jacket.

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I really like it on you.

[01:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I was proud of you for getting it.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think, you know, you kind of...

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You have your kind of Kevin uniform.

[01:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was a bit different.

[01:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was so nice.

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's such a good price that you kind of were like, I can't say no to that one.

[01:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So, what TV characters were you trying to emulate with your cashmere sweater?

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: None.

[01:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't trying to emulate anyone.

[01:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was...

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I really like sweaters.

[01:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I consider myself...

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say I'm a sweater connoisseur.

[01:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've never really had like a cashmere sweater.

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's something I associate with being like very luxurious, very fancy.

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I got two of their sweaters.

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And they are so nice.

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We actually...

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I wore one when we went to get dinner with our friends the other night.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We...

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I've kind of worn it a lot ever since.

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's...

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They're both really cute.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, you know, one thing with sweaters is sometimes if you're just wearing them and

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you're not wearing like an undershirt or something, they can kind of get scratchy.

[01:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: These ones are so soft.

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: They feel so good on your skin.

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: There's like no issues with that.

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're just very...

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They just feel a little bit like quiet luxury.

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: A little fancy.

[01:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really nice.

[01:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think they...

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: For me, they go with a lot of different things in my wardrobe.

[01:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's like...

[01:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that they can kind of be like a bit of a staple there for me.

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not...

[01:34:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like everyone's had a thing where they're like, I'm going to wear this all the time.

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you don't.

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, it doesn't go with anything.

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, what are you doing?

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But these are the opposite of that.

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They kind of go with everything.

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[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great deal.

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[01:34:34] Thank you.

[01:34:34] Thank you.

[01:34:34] Thank you.