The Cheat Sheet: Backyards and Buses

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including the possible murder of children.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be covering one very high profile case that's gotten a lot of attention out of Kentucky, as well as another in California, and two in our own backyard of Indiana.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of them is pretty disturbing and actually gets into an investigation into a specific property here. So we'll be talking about that and then getting into it.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Cheat Sheet, Backyards and Buses.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the aforementioned case involving a property in Indiana, specifically in Jasper County, Indiana, which is sort of in the southern part of the state. Would you say, Kevin?

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to read from a press release, which is our source for this.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a joint statement from Jasper County Coroner Andy Boersma and Jasper County Sheriff Patrick Williamson.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is something they put out on the Jasper County Sheriff's Office Facebook.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Quote,

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not interested to anything actually happening because the idea of this being children in burn pits is obviously incredibly tragic and upsetting.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Early days are obviously not even naming the suspect.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like they're still in that information gathering mode.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: This has gotten a lot of coverage from some of the local Indianapolis media.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So people want to know what's happening.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was, you know, the search that occurred this week occurred apparently at the in Wheatfield and it was at a home in the 4200 block of Old Orchard Lane.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So you had cadaver dogs and the current residents of that property and the homeowner of that space cooperated with the search.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So we shouldn't assume that the people in that area are the same people who are maybe accused of this crime.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like this may be a rental.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like, you know, new people might have moved in and they should be commended for cooperating because, I mean, everyone wants to get to the bottom of this.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, it's a scary story.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What a terrible story.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I know, right?

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And it just raises questions.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Undocumented children.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this a situation where there were undocumented immigrants who came to this country and, you know, some sort of trafficking situation?

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Or were they were they born here but somehow kept off the radar?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really it's it's upsetting.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's one of those things like you really hope something like this is a non story going forward.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I very much hope that as well.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was my first one.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Going far afield from Indiana at this point, another certainly disturbing case, you and I, you know, live in Indiana now, but we once lived in New York City.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing, one Brooklyn.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Shout out Fort Greene.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the great things about living in a big city like New York is public transport.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people not public transport.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But I personally am very much impressed when a city can make that happen.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very convenient.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes living in a city a lot easier.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I love public transport.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I use the New York City subway all the time back when I lived there.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly in New York, it's basically impossible to get around without public transport.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, for all the problems with public transport.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think it's downright miraculous that it works as well as it does.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But when there's something bad happening in public transport, it definitely hits home because, you know, it's more disturbing.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: People going about their business, trying to get home, trying to get to work.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then something like what you uncovered happens.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're giving me the lead in for a story out of Los Angeles.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And our sources for this were ABC News and the Los Angeles Times.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So a 51-year-old man named Lamont Campbell did something.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: This sounds preposterous.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like something out of a bad movie.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And the tragic thing is that it actually happened and someone lost their lives.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: This man, Campbell, boarded a bus and pretty much immediately shot and killed a man named Anthony Rivera, a 48-year-old man who was on his way home from his night shift.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: He worked as a parking attendant at Dodger Stadium.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, the police are notified that there is this disturbance on the bus.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And the gunman keeps his gun on the driver and orders the driver of the bus to continue driving and not stop for police or anything of that nature.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Police put down multiple spike strips.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: These are the things which, correct me if I'm wrong on you, these are the things that police officers will put down in a road to try to puncture tires.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They put those down.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: They did succeed in deflating tires, but it wasn't enough to get the bus stop for quite a while.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe it took about an hour for them to stop the bus.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And SWAT team came in and apprehended the gunman.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And the shooting victim was transported to the hospital where he was pronounced deceased.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So it just seems bizarre.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It just seems bizarre.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And your first thought is, well, why did he do this?

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's hard to imagine any reason that would make that seem understandable other than perhaps mental illness.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Or just being a bad person.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think too much gets blamed on mental illness, frankly.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think some people just want to make others suffer because their own lives are so miserable.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think also one thing that kind of people conflate sometimes are personality disorders and mental illness.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are sort of distinct issues.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I think there's just a lot of anger out there and people just do things.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Try to bring others to their sad, pathetic level.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's just me.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I just it pisses me off that this guy was just coming back from work, a hard worker, you know, going to his job and then just going home.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Some person who, you know, I'm not going to let loose and swear on the show, but like some jerk basically made it so that his family has to suffer now.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just totally needless.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: My understanding is that that that L.A. Metro bus driver was sort of a bit of a hero in this situation because he was able to put on on the overhead of the bus something indicating like there's a there's a hostage situation here almost.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, sort of staying calm in that environment.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That's terrifying.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that that takes something.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if most people would be able to do that.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That if you're on your bus and there's a gunman who has literally shot someone and failedly wounded them, how do you how are you able to just keep on functioning and think rationally like that?

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's it's incredible.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, very disturbing case out of California.

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[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So going back to Indiana, now we're returning home.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a case out of White County.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I relied a bit on an article from the News and Review online out of White County, but I also looked through the sort of court documents in this case.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a situation where I really apologize in advance if I've pronounced anybody's name wrong.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, with a name like mine, I try to get it right, but I also am just bad at reading and pronunciation in general.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, you know, as you know from listening to the show.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So I apologize and, you know, appreciate any corrections if you hear anything that is wrong.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This involves the murder involving two truck drivers.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And apropos of nothing, can I just say, like when people, I feel like truck drivers get a bad rep in true crime.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people are always like, oh, maybe the guy was a truck driver because they move around a lot.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, a lot of people have cars.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't like it.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like how like there's – am I crazy or has there been like, oh, the truck driver serial killer?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think people think too much of that.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that – I mean, I don't know.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I get annoyed about this.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Leave the truck drivers alone, okay?

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Leave the truck drivers alone.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They're doing – like there's – I don't know.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean there's all kinds of –

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Most of the things we all buy or consume or enjoy, most of the physical objects that we use as a part of our daily lives,

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the odds are that we got access to that through the work of truck drivers.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a number of wonderful truck drivers who listen to this podcast and are on the podcast and bless them.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Shout out to the murder sheet truckers listening right now.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: We appreciate you.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't – I just feel like in some true crime spaces like it's almost been a trend where it's like, oh, yeah, maybe the murder was a truck driver.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's not been solved.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of like a lot of people have a lot of types of vehicles that they can use to get around.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So why we're making that assumption, I don't know.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I know why because it's like truckers move around a lot.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But I just – I don't know.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to say that before we get into this because it does involve truck driving and it does involve a murder.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is again out of White County.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll read from the probable cause affidavit here.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is by actually a name that may sound familiar to folks who listen to our Delphi murders coverage,

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but it involves Indiana State Police Detective Ben Rector.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, quote,

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: End quote.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So from there, Detective Rector – and this is back in 2022 – contacted the Cedar Rapids Police Department,

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: specifically Detective Matthew Denlinger, and he told him that they found Garcia and that he had been murdered.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So then basically Rector was told that Garcia and another man named Miguel Ibargueren were both employed by a place called CRST Transportation.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So the way that this was happening was they were a team of drivers.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not so familiar with the trucking industry.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming that means something like if it's going to be a very long haul, you might have two drivers in there where they can switch out and let the other one rest.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So nobody gets overtired.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody – there's no problem there.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that sort of your understanding?

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And Garcia was the older of the two.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He was, I think, in his 60s, and he was going to be mentoring this new guy, Ibargueren, who is sort of starting out.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, that makes sense.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And this originates – the trip starts in Riverside, California.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: They leave January 30th, 2022.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And when Ibargueren comes back to the CRST station there, February 24th, 2022, Garcia is not there.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He claims to his bosses that his partner just walked away from the truck, you know, a few days earlier.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the day earlier, actually, February 23rd in Pontiac, Illinois.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, seemed kind of sick, seemed kind of off.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And CRST contacted law enforcement and reported him missing.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They, at that point, became very suspicious of Ibargueren's statement.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And, like, Garcia's family couldn't reach him.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: He stopped being in contact with anyone February 4th.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So something's obviously really wrong here.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: However, Ibargueren is given all these weird statements.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a good situation.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when, you know, Garcia's body is found, it becomes apparent that a crime has happened here.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing about modern trucking is that there's a lot of technology that can be used to track where trucks are and what's going on, GPS data.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And they found that on February 9th, 2022, at 544 p.m., the truck that these two men was in was stopped along I-65 northbound near 178 mile marker in Tippecanoe County.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And then an hour later, it stopped again in White County.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they were able to track kind of where it was parked, how long it was there, and, you know, then when it was returned to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which is, again, you know, so it started in Riverside, goes all around, then comes back to Iowa.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So, in addition to that, they were able to track down a lot of surveillance footage in Pontiac, Illinois, where Garcia was alleged to have wandered off.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And you see Ibargueren going all around, getting out of his truck, going to Walmart, going to the Dollar Tree.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Garcia is nowhere to be seen.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Then the truck was searched, and this was done by the Cedar Rapids Police Department.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They found Garcia's reading glasses.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Those were cracked.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They had dried blood on the lenses.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Dried blood was all throughout the truck, the passenger compartment, and on the passenger door.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And in addition to that, several machetes and several knives were sort of found in the truck.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of where things started.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, Ibargueren is on trial for murdering Garcia.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So that trial is going on now.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe it started yesterday, October 1st.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe it is scheduled to go on until October 8th.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So Ibargueren is alleged to have murdered Garcia, put his body in a sleeping bag, and then dumped it out in White County, Indiana.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And there seems to be considerable evidence against him.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's kind of where things are.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an interesting case.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's also striking.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we all know this intellectually, but it's worth getting a reminder that the people we hear about in the Delphi case, that's not their full-time job, seven days a week, 24 hours a day, what have you.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: They have other cases.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: They're working.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: All of them do.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Whether they're the judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, or the investigators on the case.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this murder that you're talking about is a case that has gotten relatively little attention, but it's obviously a big deal to the people of White County and to the Indiana State Police investigators, who it sounds like have done a pretty great job of police work on it.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and this is, I mean, this is funny.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the early documents was, I believe, signed by Stacey Diener, who's now one of the deputy prosecutors in the Delphi case.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the main defense attorney on this seems to be Patrick Manahan.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, he is a Delphi attorney.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not involved with the Delphi murders case, but you do hear his name a lot in that area as far as taking on some of these different cases.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The state seems to be represented by Mark Delgado, and there's also, because of a language barrier with the defendant, there seems to be an interpreter, Susanna Bueno, who's able to kind of translate all of this.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of interesting because it's sort of a bit of an interstate case in a way because they were traveling all around, but the murder happened seemingly in Indiana.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what it's going to be focused on, but we'll be curious to see ultimately the outcome of this case and how it goes.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But, I mean, I haven't read every portion of this probable cause affidavit because it's a couple pages and I want to get moving.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But it seems like based on the footage, based on nothing adding up with this guy's story, based on the fact that he was seen having all these cleaning materials.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, just it seems like a pretty strong case against him.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, so let's see.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we're at our last one now?

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We are.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and the Honorable Brad A. Woolley is the judge on that one.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So I always like to kind of like get all the names in there because then like if they ever come up again, we can be like, ah, yes.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we've been doing this so long and we put out so many episodes.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like we know everybody.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we don't because like it's funny when we do coverage, especially Indiana cases, we'll be like, yeah, we know everyone.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there'll be like some person who comes up.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, who the heck is this?

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we won't know.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like, well, especially in Delphi, like, you know, some people.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I've seen that guy before.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you don't know who he is until later.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So we still have much to learn, Kevin.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're a little bit jealous of the way they always call judges the Honorable.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you'd love it if we could call you the Honorable Anya King.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: What?

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't say that.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That makes me sound ridiculous.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm trying to say something because you're taking a little drink of seltzer before you start the next case.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, don't just say whatever.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I was trying to artfully cover that.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But get on to the next case.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't see me because it's audio, but I'm hanging my head in shame.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, apologies for this man.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about a case that is actually in a state that neighbors us, but not our state.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And my sources for this are Courier and Journal, as well as the Lexington, I'm sorry, the Lexington Herald Leader and Court TV.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a case that's gotten a lot of attention and that is very understandable because it involves something incredibly shocking.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, one thing we've been talking about in this episode is we, you know, when you cover crime and then I'm sure when you're actually working in the criminal justice system in your area, you get to know the same people, the same faces, especially when you're in a more rural or small community.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Those ties run deep and you have the same people.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, oftentimes we note that defense attorneys and prosecutors are certainly at odds in the courtroom.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't always it can translate into animosity.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't always translate into animosity because sometimes it's like, you know, you kind of have to get along with everybody.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't be, you know, pulling dirty tricks and yelling at each other too much because you're in a small area and that that's just not a way to get things done.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And you kind of are always in front of the same judge.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a case that kind of really is shocking because it really undermines some of that.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm talking, of course, about the September 19th, 2020, 24 murder shooting of Letcher County District Judge Kevin R. Mullins.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, we've seen a number of cases involving judges being targeted.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for murder in recent times.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But what's doubly shocking about this one is that the accused shooter was Letcher County Sheriff Sean, a.k.a. Mickey Steins.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a county sheriff pulling out a gun and shooting a judge in Kentucky.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think you and I kind of saw these headlines early on.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you and I were just both completely floored by that.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, Kevin?

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's not the sort of headline you expect to see.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what's your what what are your thoughts on that?

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like just I mean, I guess like as someone who is an attorney, how shocking is this?

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's pretty shocking to use the technical term.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish I knew the Latin word for very.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's certainly you now also have been in many, many courtrooms and we've talked to many law enforcement people and you don't become a sheriff, you know, overnight.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It takes a lot of work and dedication to your duty, a sense of responsibility to your community to rise to that level.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So the people who hold that level, that title in a community, the sheriff of a particular county tends to be a responsible, solid person.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the goal, at least.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't expect them to go into a judge's chamber and commit murder.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's it's really and it just undermines any sort of faith in, I think, the criminal justice system.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and we're going to get to this.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Not all the circumstances of what preceded this are known, but those don't matter.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: If you just go around shooting people, that's bad.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't I don't know why.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that I feel like that shouldn't need to be said.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But especially, again, someone who's not only a law enforcement officer, but someone who's been elected by the people of Letcher County to, you know, enforce the law.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it just it just undermines everything that that office is supposed to stand for.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, I mean, so anyway, so let's get some background on on Sheriff Steins.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: He was first elected sheriff in twenty eighteen and then was reelected recently in twenty twenty two.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, he's his tenure has been not without some controversy.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You see what what kind of has come up from news reporting here is that there's been a lawsuit.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't involve Sheriff Steins doing anything directly, but it involves actually a sheriff's deputy allegedly pressuring a woman into giving him sex.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So sexual abuse.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And one odd thing is that in news reports that said to have allegedly occurred in the chamber in the chambers of Judge Mullins.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's not saying that Steins or Mullins were directly involved in sexually abusing the woman.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that there's that proximity.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So Steins in the lawsuit is accused of like not properly supervising the deputy so that this happened.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Mullins, it's like his chambers are the scene of the crime.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So that that kind of gives you some context of something that was kind of going on.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: The day of the shooting.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They were said to have been at a luncheon together.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were like literally eating lunch together, which, again, is bizarre.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It was called the street side restaurant, which is, I guess, down the street from the courthouse.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're both there.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: No one has reported at this point any issues that seemed obvious at that point, although there was some sort of indication at a recent.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was a recent pretrial hearing that was filmed on court TV.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where we know kind of get some information on this from.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was some indication that maybe the judge said something like, well, you know, should we meet in my chambers or something?

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So I I don't know.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Either way, around 3 p.m., the sheriff, you know, comes into the chambers.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: There's sort of like the outer room and then sort of the inner chambers.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So the courthouse employees in the outer room left because the sheriff apparently said something like, I want to have a private conversation here.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And they go into the inner chambers.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And what happened next was actually captured on video that was played in court and that I reviewed.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And just, you know, if you're thinking about watching this, just know.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's disturbing.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The judge at some point gets blurred out his his his body.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But you're watching a man die.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's it's upsetting.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, just keep that in mind.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, we saw what was played in court.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So you see the sheriff, see the judge's office.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You see the sheriff in there.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: He's pointing a gun.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He's shooting as as the judge is shot.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: His his body is blurred out by, you know, I mean, by editing afterwards.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The sheriff keeps moving.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: He kind of comes around the desks, keep shooting him.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And as this is playing in court, you can actually hear.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine the judge's family members, loved ones, friends.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You can hear like keening, like wailing from them.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's very, very disturbing because they're getting there watching someone they cared about died.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And the judge is in his black robe.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's genuinely so disturbing.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, at this hearing, Kentucky State Police investigator Clayton Stamper was being sort of direct examined and then cross examined by the defense.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of what he indicated was that, you know, this investigation is ongoing.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They're still kind of collecting all the evidence.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They're still they've interviewed people.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But it just sounded like it was very much still in the early phase.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that so that in terms of the parties here, as you can imagine, I mean.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a county judge has been murdered, has been shot dead, so they're going to have to bring in a special prosecutor, a special judge.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So they've done that.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Letcher County Prosecutor Matt Butler accused himself.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Not only was he always working closely with this judge, but in addition to that, he and the judge were both married to two sisters.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a family connection there.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So they brought in a presiding judge, Carter County District Judge Rupert Wilhoyt III.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the Commonwealth's attorney for Laurel and Knox Counties, Jackie Steele, special prosecutor.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then representing Steins is going to be public attorney Josh Miller.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So one thing Miller was sort of trying to get the investigator to drill down on was what exactly preceded this shooting.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we really in the video only saw the shooting.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And what was sort of indicated was that the sheriff was trying to call his daughter on his phone and then examining the judge's phone, seeing the daughter's phone number in there and trying to call her using that phone.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, not a lot has been has come out about the daughter at this point, but it seems like she may be underage.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: She may be a teenager.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's something to note.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of what I mean, like there's a lot that it's just a kind of a loaded thing there where it's like.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening, but I think it's really important that none of us jump to any conclusions.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen a lot of rumors online that I'm kind of just like, well, maybe that will turn out to be true and maybe not.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But either way, I'm not going to speculate in the situation because that would just be irresponsible.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is a case where you're just going to have to like see what both sides say and then see what you find believable or reasonable.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think. Yeah, I guess I'll leave it at that.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: All of the phones and whatnot are being reviewed.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing that I should note is that the investigator also indicated that when the sheriff, you know, after he shot the judge, he kind of just gave up.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Like he, you know, went into custody.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But apparently he told another officer as they were going, as he was going into custody, they're trying to kidnap my wife and kid.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's odd.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think what the public defender was trying to do is get show an indication that this was not preplanned.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, because obviously the sheriff is on me.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I guess what is your take on that?

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The sheriff is on video doing this.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the defense?

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: What could the defense be?

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Motive.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like temporary insanity.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: That or a self-defense.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I don't.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, that wouldn't seem to fly.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Not unless I mean, the judge wasn't waving a weapon of his own.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's going to be interesting to keep an eye on this.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so, too.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, again, very disturbing.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel terrible for the people or people of Letcher County, because, again, this is just this is not the sort of thing you want to happen in your community.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I know we've spoken with some folks who live there and are kind of in that community.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: People want to know about the cell phone.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What exactly happened with that?

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: What did these cell phones reveal?

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What was going on?

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think people just, you know, we people want everyone to not make assumptions about their community when something bad happens there.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we should all extend that to Letcher County.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really important.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we move on, I wanted to make a few quick comments about something else that's been going on in the world.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Last weekend, of course, there was a terrible storm that really affected the lives of many people throughout the country.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Ani and I were relatively lucky.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We got some property damage, but we have insurance.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to cover it, I think.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously we weren't injured and we didn't even lose power.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of other people were not nearly as lucky.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's some people out there in really bad shape.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So we'd like to include in our show notes for this week a link to the Red Cross, a place where you can donate and learn more information on how to help people who have suffered in this Hurricane Helene situation.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, our hearts go out to everyone affected.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a total tragedy.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And we just, you know, hopefully we can all kind of band together and help give back to those communities that were so negatively affected.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I also want to mention, you know, I'm always on the lookout for new true crime podcasts.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine a lot of you are as well.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And someone recently recommended to me a podcast called The Viper Pit.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I checked out an episode they did about a recantation called Evolution of a Recantation.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And they also did an interesting episode about a southern gentleman thief named Jeffrey Manchester.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So The Viper Pit, if you're so inclined, give them a listen.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you'll like it too.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And now let's move into the final act of this week's cheat sheet episode.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The final act?

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That sounds so dramatic.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It's your turn.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, God.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's unfortunately good.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unfortunately because my computer just died.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to look something up for my great, my wonderful, well, great is a loaded word here.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But my shirt's sad, right?

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're doing now.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Just so I can't get you.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure there's anything else coming in.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what you're doing over there.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly not an auspicious beginning.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's going to get better.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: As a note, it's good to be prepared.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what?

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I was prepared.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And my computer just decided to die.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you were prepared, I think your computer would have been fully charged.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But I digress.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's back now.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a piece of junk.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You're so harsh on me.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So shirts.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We all need them, right?

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone needs a shirt.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: This is really weak.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, one thing that I think about when I think about our shirts, the murder sheet shirts, right?

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: These are shirts that say murder sheet people on them.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got our beautiful logo in full color.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got a fun inside joke with the murder sheet community.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got a way to tell your friends, loved ones, employers that you have a wonderful taste in true crime.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can get them online, shipped to your house.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: If you join our Patreon, you get free shipping.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They're at murdersheetshop.com.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And let me just talk about, like, one of – I mean, we all probably – a lot of us had to read this book in high school, so maybe you didn't like it.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But I've always been a big fan of the book The Great Gatsby.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of basic, I guess.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that book.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I really enjoyed it, reading it as a teenager.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of my classmates disagreed.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a moment in that where the following happens, and I'll quote this directly.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Quote,

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to have an experience like Daisy and the Great Gatsby, specifically about the shirts, not about anything else, and we're not going to get involved in any vehicular homicides or, you know, love triangles.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Spoilers.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very old book.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, read it.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, whatever.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to have that sort of Daisy experience, not with any parties, you know, affordable.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The shirts are not going to be as expensive as a huge opulent party in Long Island.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You can turn to the murder sheet because I think these shirts may bring you to tears.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: In a good way, right?

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've not polled the people who've ordered them so far.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I wouldn't be too surprised if we asked around if a few of them hadn't maybe wiped away a tear, you know, maybe needed to take a moment to deal with their emotions.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Walked away from their family, just kind of stood outside looking out at the sky.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But, like, in a good way.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're saying if people buy our shirts, it will make them weep.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But, like, don't we all need a good cathartic cry sometimes?

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Shouldn't we be overcome with the sublime sometime?

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't Niagara Falls make you feel a little emotional sometimes?

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So these shirts are that of garments.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we see what the people think.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be very honest.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: If you said, Kevin, if you buy this particular product, it will make you weep in front of your family.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: The odds are I'm not going to buy it.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But we'll see what happens this week with the shirt sales.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: People ask for a refund.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's going to be – I think you're just – I think you're afraid of emotions here.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to sometimes let something loose.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_01]: A cry doesn't have to be about a sad thing.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It could just be you're overcome with beauty.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, I think, what will happen here.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I'm trying to get at, to be clear.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll see what happens.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Have a good weekend, everybody.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, everyone.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: This show is phenomenal.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a show for you.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_01]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a really terrific show.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been on his show.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That really resonated.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That was so right.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Give it a try.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's compassionate.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's affirming.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We're fans of the show.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We love it.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Download some episodes.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Very easy to find.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.