The Cheat Sheet: Bench Trials and Business Opportunities

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of violence and murder, including sexually motivated violence.

[00:00:12] So for whatever reason, on today's cheat sheet, three out of four cases heavily involve Tennessee.

[00:00:19] So you're welcome or sorry to all our Tennessee listeners, I guess.

[00:00:24] And in addition to that, we'll be doing cases that also heavily feature the states of Georgia and Arizona.

[00:00:31] I guess we're breaking it up a little bit.

[00:00:33] Just a little bit.

[00:00:34] We're not trying to pick on Tennessee.

[00:00:36] Tennessee's a great state.

[00:00:37] Exactly.

[00:00:38] It's the birthplace of your favorite restaurant in the world, aka Captain D's.

[00:00:43] I think it's also a restaurant that means a great deal to you.

[00:00:48] What?

[00:00:49] When I met you, you had a picture of the captain hanging on your wall.

[00:00:54] Now the captain from True Crime Garage is going to get an idea.

[00:00:59] Let's just get to the episode.

[00:01:01] What are we doing?

[00:01:02] Let's get to the episode.

[00:01:03] Push the button.

[00:01:04] My name is Anya Kane.

[00:01:06] I'm a journalist.

[00:01:07] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:01:09] I'm an attorney.

[00:01:10] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:12] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:18] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:20] And this is The Cheat Sheet.

[00:01:22] Bench Trials and Business Opportunities.

[00:01:25] All right.

[00:02:10] To start off with, we wanted to do one quick note on a case we've covered in the past.

[00:02:15] This is the murder of Ronlee Ratliff, which remains unsolved.

[00:02:18] It's out of Indiana's Morgan County.

[00:02:21] And Ronlee's aunt Kim is calling on people to continue to be involved in this case and spread awareness.

[00:02:26] One thing I'd like to note is that if you are a creator who's thinking about covering the case, this is something where you can send us an email and we will try to get you some information and perhaps connect you with folks who knew Ronlee.

[00:02:39] This is a case where it's still unsolved.

[00:02:42] And Kim feels that if this case gets more attention, if there's more pressure on police to put resources to it, that can only help.

[00:02:49] And if you have any knowledge of what happened to Ronlee, please call the Morgan County Sheriff's Office at 765-342-1080.

[00:03:01] So going away from Indiana and heading to Georgia, this is a case where I relied on the sources.

[00:03:09] I watched part of the trial through Long Crime, which is a great YouTube channel that kind of publishes kind of some of these trial sessions.

[00:03:20] I also relied on reporting from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Fox 5, and the New York Times.

[00:03:27] This is about Lakin Riley, a 22-year-old young woman who was a graduate of the University of Georgia and was a nursing student at Augusta University.

[00:03:40] And, you know, this is a horrible, horrible case that has gotten a lot of national attention.

[00:03:48] And it takes place in Athens, Georgia, where UGA is.

[00:03:53] But on February 22nd, 2024, Lakin did something that a lot of people do.

[00:04:03] A lot of young women do.

[00:04:06] People of all ages and genders.

[00:04:08] She went for a morning run.

[00:04:10] She left around 9 a.m. after trying to see if her mom was available for a call.

[00:04:16] That's one of the worst details in this.

[00:04:19] That's like not particularly graphic.

[00:04:21] It's just she was trying to talk to her mom.

[00:04:24] I don't know.

[00:04:24] Like it just that breaks my heart because her mom wasn't available and called her back a few minutes later.

[00:04:29] And when she didn't pick up, got increasingly panicked.

[00:04:31] And just the fact that her mom went through all of that around this is just horrifying to me.

[00:04:38] There is unfortunately no shortage of horrifying details in this case.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:46] Unfortunately, Lakin did not know that, you know, that morning there had been another incident on UGA's campus at a dormitory.

[00:04:59] But, you know, we'll talk more about that later.

[00:05:05] She's jogging.

[00:05:06] She's going at a good rate of speed according to, I believe it was her Garmin watch.

[00:05:13] She's running fast around 9.09 a.m., you know, really just a few minutes after starting this run.

[00:05:19] And then at 9.10, she comes to a complete stop.

[00:05:24] And the location has her sort of in this wooded area, sort of a trail area.

[00:05:30] So she stops.

[00:05:32] And from there, the Garmin watch is tracking her heartbeat.

[00:05:40] And well, actually, before that, I should say, this is audio that I listened to via long crime.

[00:05:49] They had a session of the trial that ultimately happened where the prosecution called Kevin McGreevy, the training coordinator at the Athens-Clarke County 911 Center.

[00:06:00] And they played an enhanced version of this audio that was enhanced by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

[00:06:07] And it was a 911 call that was made around 9.11 a.m.

[00:06:12] And you really could not hear much.

[00:06:14] Some rustling, birdsong, maybe voices at one point, but could not understand them at all.

[00:06:24] And, you know, whoever called was not responding to the 911 dispatcher.

[00:06:30] And then the phone, you know, Lakin Riley's phone ended the call.

[00:06:35] So I very highly doubt that Lakin herself ended the call.

[00:06:39] It was likely her killer who did.

[00:06:41] But dispatch tried to call her back a number.

[00:06:44] I think they tried to reach back out.

[00:06:45] There was no answer.

[00:06:47] And as I mentioned, Lakin's mom had tried to get back in touch with her and increasingly could not.

[00:06:53] And is sending her all these heartbreaking, desperate texts about like, hey, call me back.

[00:06:57] I'm worried.

[00:07:00] And she got in touch with Lakin's friends.

[00:07:03] They start getting very worried.

[00:07:05] They look for her.

[00:07:06] And then around 12.07 p.m.

[00:07:09] That day, they report her disappearance to 911.

[00:07:14] About 31 minutes after that, her body is found.

[00:07:18] She was beaten and partially unclothed about 65 feet off the running trail in a wooded area.

[00:07:24] So that is just, again, absolutely horrifying.

[00:07:33] Meanwhile, there's, you know, police begin trying to investigate who could have done this horrible thing.

[00:07:43] And they start digging into things.

[00:07:46] So when police are going around, I think this is University of Georgia police.

[00:07:53] They see a man named Diego Ibarra who's wearing.

[00:07:59] Well, actually, I should go back.

[00:08:00] They investigate and security video near where her body was found, about 500 yards away, captures at 944 a.m.

[00:08:10] A man at a dumpster.

[00:08:12] A man at a dumpster.

[00:08:13] And he's wearing a Adidas hat.

[00:08:15] And he's dumping a jacket into the dumpster.

[00:08:20] The jacket has Riley's DNA on it, and it also has the offender's DNA.

[00:08:25] So the next day, police are going around, and they see a man named Diego Ibarra who's wearing an Adidas hat that looks identical to what was on the footage at a nearby apartment complex.

[00:08:37] And the brim has dirt on it.

[00:08:39] Now, Lakin's body was also covered in dirt because it was a very vicious struggle before she was asphyxiated and beaten to death.

[00:08:48] But Diego is actually cooperative.

[00:08:50] He shows them his arms and his hands, and there's no scratches, nothing what you would expect to see after such a violent confrontation with the victim.

[00:08:59] But then police see Diego's brother, Jose, and his arms, wrists, knuckles.

[00:09:08] They've got scratches.

[00:09:09] They've got bruising.

[00:09:10] They're red.

[00:09:10] And when UGA police officer Rafael Sayan, who's Spanish-speaking and is interpreting and speaking with Jose, asks him, how did you get those injuries?

[00:09:21] Jose does not have any sort of clear answer for him.

[00:09:28] So further investigating reveals a couple of very key pieces of evidence.

[00:09:34] So on that blue jacket I mentioned that was dumped, Jose Ibarra's DNA is all over that, along with Lakin Riley's.

[00:09:44] Lakin has Jose's DNA under her fingernails, and his fingerprint is on her phone screen, which is left at the scene of the crime.

[00:09:55] So, I guess, what are your thoughts on—well, I'll actually add to that.

[00:10:01] In addition to that, this came out at trial, an FBI agent testified that I mentioned Lakin's Garmin watch.

[00:10:09] Well, a Samsung device that belonged to Jose Ibarra, those two things, those two devices, those two pieces of technology were in very close proximity with one another from 9.10 a.m.

[00:10:24] till about 9.32 a.m.

[00:10:26] And then going back as far as what Lakin Riley went through, her Garmin watch was tracking her heartbeat, which stopped at 9.28 a.m.

[00:10:36] So, this is all painting a picture of an assault and a murder that starts around 9.10, 9.11 a.m.

[00:10:46] And then ends with her death around 9.28.

[00:10:49] And then kind of proceeds into more of the obstruction of justice portion where you have, you know, him moving away about 9.32 a.m.

[00:10:58] And trying to dump evidence at 9.44 a.m.

[00:11:01] So when I describe all of that, what are your thoughts on the strength of that case?

[00:11:05] That's a very strong case.

[00:11:07] That's what I would characterize as a slam dunk case.

[00:11:12] And it's partially because Lakin Riley fought him.

[00:11:15] You know, I mean, she got his DNA.

[00:11:20] She fought for her life.

[00:11:22] And it's horrifying, the fact that this happened to her when she was just trying to do what many people do, which is just go out for a run.

[00:11:32] And there's been so many cases of women going out for a run.

[00:11:35] And instead of just being able to do that, an offender decides that they're going to take their life in exchange for their own sexual gratification.

[00:11:45] That's what the state made the case of.

[00:11:47] In this case, they said that Ibarra was hunting females that day.

[00:11:51] And more on that in a minute.

[00:11:53] And that he was looking for a victim.

[00:11:56] And that he saw an opportunity here.

[00:11:58] And the evidence does support that he was hunting women.

[00:12:03] One thing about this, we're talking about the trial now.

[00:12:09] One thing about the trial that was interesting is the defendant chose not to have a jury.

[00:12:16] They chose what is called a bench trial, which is the cliche is that when you ask for a bench trial, it's basically a slower way of pleading guilty.

[00:12:30] Wow.

[00:12:31] That's the cliche.

[00:12:32] I mean, because think about it.

[00:12:33] If you're the defendant, you know that in order to be convicted, you need to have the prosecution prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to 12 people, the jury.

[00:12:48] Now, typically, you would say, well, it's better to make them try to prove that to as many people as possible because people have different experiences.

[00:12:56] People have different perspectives.

[00:12:58] It would obviously be more difficult to get 12 people to agree than it would be to get one person to agree.

[00:13:06] And when you have a bench trial, you're basically putting that decision in the hands of the judge.

[00:13:11] So all of the prosecution needed to do was just to convince one person.

[00:13:15] And so that's one of the reasons why, again, it's often considered to just be a slower way of pleading guilty.

[00:13:21] Now, one legitimate reason that a number of people prefer bench trials is sometimes the legal or factual issues are very, very complicated.

[00:13:32] And you as a defendant or as a defense attorney might think, well, a lay person isn't going to understand and appreciate all these nuances.

[00:13:42] It would be better to take our chances with the judge.

[00:13:44] And that doesn't really seem to be the case here.

[00:13:46] So it's just an interesting strategy.

[00:13:49] This case became very politicized and it became kind of a touch point around debates around immigration because for reasons I will go into.

[00:13:58] But could that be a reason?

[00:14:00] Concerns about that be a reason why the defense would say, let's try it with a judge rather than a jury?

[00:14:06] Sure.

[00:14:07] You could feel that the jury is going to be inflamed and politicized.

[00:14:11] So we will instead rely on the good judgment of a judge.

[00:14:15] Yeah.

[00:14:16] But again, in this case, I mean, like it seemed like what the defense was sort of arguing was just basically it's all circumstantial.

[00:14:26] Circumstantial seems to have become like a buzzword for like bad, which is not accurate.

[00:14:32] Most murder cases are circumstantial.

[00:14:34] Also, people think like DNA is always direct evidence, but DNA itself, which is, I think, for many people, the gold standard of evidence in a murder conviction is also circumstantial.

[00:14:46] Because DNA can get places through other means than just, you know, someone perpetrating a murder.

[00:14:53] Right.

[00:14:53] So it's so basically the defense is saying it's circumstantial.

[00:14:57] It just seemed like this guy was going down no matter what, you know, rightfully so, because the evidence against him was completely insurmountable for the defense.

[00:15:06] I don't I don't know what the defense could have done.

[00:15:09] I mean, I don't know why he didn't just plead guilty.

[00:15:11] I mean, I mean, like everyone has a right to go to trial.

[00:15:13] But I mean, it was he was obviously incredibly guilty.

[00:15:17] And the evidence was what I mean, like there was so there's so much evidence where like any one piece of this evidence, I think, could have convicted somebody.

[00:15:27] But it's a strong case.

[00:15:28] It was a very strong case.

[00:15:30] We talk about like, you know, sometimes the case is more about totality where everything stacks up.

[00:15:34] This is like a stack of boulders, though.

[00:15:36] This is not like a stack of small rocks.

[00:15:38] This is like a lot.

[00:15:40] So some things about Jose Barra.

[00:15:44] He was here illegally.

[00:15:45] He came from Venezuela originally.

[00:15:48] And there was a number of opportunities where he could have been deported potentially.

[00:15:53] So that is the reason why this became highly politicized.

[00:15:57] He was arrested in New York City for acting in a manner to injure a child less than 17 and also something around motor vehicle license violation.

[00:16:06] But he was allowed to leave before immigration and customs enforcement got to him and ended up going down to Georgia with his brother.

[00:16:15] And then, of course, this horrible tragedy happened.

[00:16:17] So that was the reason why it got politicized.

[00:16:22] And in addition to that, he seems to have, again, been hunting for a woman that day.

[00:16:30] He, I think like around like 730 in the morning.

[00:16:36] So let's go through his timeline.

[00:16:37] He lived near campus, the UGA campus.

[00:16:41] He stayed up very late the night before.

[00:16:44] He's like posting on Snapchat at like 430 a.m. and 530 a.m.

[00:16:48] Leaves his place at 652.

[00:16:51] Oh, and by the way, he'd been drinking something he bought at the liquor store the night before all night.

[00:16:58] And around 730, a man in a hood and black gloves and a hat tries to get into a student's apartment while she was showering.

[00:17:10] He's trying to get through the door.

[00:17:12] She calls 911.

[00:17:14] Officers get there, but they miss him.

[00:17:16] He's already gone.

[00:17:18] Um.

[00:17:20] And then around 824 a.m.

[00:17:23] A woman jogging on the trails sees a man standing off to the side near a tension pond and he makes her very, very uncomfortable.

[00:17:32] And she hurries and really speeds up so she can get away from him quickly.

[00:17:37] She didn't see him long enough to be able to identify him.

[00:17:40] But I mean, it's pretty clear who that was.

[00:17:43] So it seems like this guy is kind of lurking around initially trying to break in somewhere to get to to a potential victim.

[00:17:50] And then he goes to the trails and is kind of waiting for someone to come by.

[00:17:55] Um.

[00:17:56] And it's just horrible.

[00:17:57] And it makes me so angry that there are people, offenders out there like this who essentially just see women as a opportunity to get sexual gratification and, you know, are happy to kill them if they resist or if they, you know, might be a witness against them later on.

[00:18:13] And it's like that's all women are to them.

[00:18:15] That's all these victims are.

[00:18:16] And it's.

[00:18:17] It.

[00:18:18] It.

[00:18:19] It.

[00:18:20] It.

[00:18:20] It enrages me.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:21] It really does.

[00:18:22] It really does.

[00:18:25] Um.

[00:18:25] The prosecutor in this case was actually a special prosecutor.

[00:18:28] She is a veteran lawyer with the prosecuting attorneys counsel, Sheila Ross.

[00:18:32] Um.

[00:18:32] She put together, I think, a very powerful case having reviewed this.

[00:18:36] And, uh, the judge was Superior Court Judge, uh, H. Patrick Haggard.

[00:18:40] And unsurprisingly, he found, uh, Ibarra guilty on all counts.

[00:18:44] Um.

[00:18:45] He had 10 charges in total, three counts of felony murder, um, and then a bunch of other stuff, intent to rape, aggravated assaults, hindering a 911 call, just kind of the, threw the kitchen sink at him.

[00:18:57] And he was sentenced to, uh, life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[00:19:02] Does that outcome surprise you based on what we talked about?

[00:19:05] No.

[00:19:05] Obviously, you don't want this person to be free another moment in his life because he, he would clearly pose a danger to others.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:14] So, I mean, seems like a unsurprising outcome, but certainly that does nothing for Riley, uh, Lincoln Riley's family and friends who, you know, lost somebody who was actually doing something with her life and seeking to help others by becoming a nurse.

[00:19:30] And now they have to, like, her, her mom was, like, weeping through a lot of this trial.

[00:19:35] And I don't believe, I don't blame her because the, the evidence is so horrifying.

[00:19:38] And, um, again, this, this never should have happened, but, um, yeah, it's, I'm glad justice was done.

[00:19:48] So, the next case is another horrifying one out of Arizona this time, although there is a strong connection to Tennessee.

[00:19:55] Um, my sources for this were reporting from the Arizona Republic, uh, from Fox 10 Phoenix, USA Today, Arizona's Family, and 12 News.

[00:20:05] Um, this is about a 22-year-old young woman named Mercedes Vega.

[00:20:13] And Mercedes, uh, worked as an exotic dancer.

[00:20:17] And, um, unfortunately, her life came to an end last year in, in really horrific and violent circumstances.

[00:20:24] So, on April 17th, 2023, about 1 a.m., a Chevrolet Malibu is found on fire off the highway in Arizona.

[00:20:35] Highway, uh, I-10, and it's around, I guess, what's called the Salome, Salome Road exit in Tonopah, Arizona.

[00:20:45] Uh, that's in Maricopa County.

[00:20:47] I kind of, like, did the Google Maps thing where I dropped myself there.

[00:20:51] I mean, I didn't, like, literally go there.

[00:20:53] I mean, like, you know, like, where you can see on the street level.

[00:20:57] And it's, it's just a brown desert, some scrubby plants.

[00:21:00] It's really in the middle of nowhere.

[00:21:03] So, this car's on fire, and it's even worse than that because when the Arizona Department of Public Safety responds, they find that there is a body in the back seat.

[00:21:11] So, um, around 1.15 a.m., they bring in the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, and, um, they discover the victim is 22-year-old Mercedes Vega.

[00:21:22] And, um, unfortunately, she died a really violent and awful death.

[00:21:26] Uh, she had been shot in the right arm.

[00:21:28] The bullet was not found, but they found the bullet wound.

[00:21:31] There was bleach in her throat.

[00:21:32] Uh, there was bleach in the car and lighter fluid.

[00:21:36] Um, she had suffered a lot of blunt force trauma injuries.

[00:21:40] Uh, she had been beaten.

[00:21:43] And, um, she died of a combination of burns and smoke inhalation.

[00:21:48] So, she was actually alive when the car was set on fire, and that is what killed her.

[00:21:52] So, very violent, horrible death.

[00:21:55] Um, Mercedes had lived in Tempe, Arizona, which is about, it's also in Maricopa County.

[00:22:02] It's kind of like an hour drive away from, um, you know, that, where she was found.

[00:22:07] And it's a city that's near Phoenix and Scottsdale.

[00:22:10] It's actually the location of Arizona State University.

[00:22:13] So, I guess this is about another college town.

[00:22:15] Um, she lived at the Aubrey Apartments there.

[00:22:18] And that's actually where a very important clue came in.

[00:22:21] So, she was walking to her, uh, for surveillance footage, picked her up, walking to her car in the parking garage.

[00:22:27] And then she's hit in the head and kidnapped in another vehicle.

[00:22:32] Her own car, which was a white Dodge Charger, was found near the culinary dropout in Tempe.

[00:22:36] And it was illegally parked.

[00:22:37] And that's about a little over a mile from where she lived.

[00:22:41] So, the crime goes unsolved for a bit.

[00:22:43] Um, no information's being released by the sheriff's office.

[00:22:48] Her loved ones actually take to social media in the meantime.

[00:22:51] Her mother, Erica, uh, Pillsbury, was on TikTok, sort of raising awareness.

[00:22:56] And, um, but, you know, as we see in these cases, just because nothing's happening publicly does not mean that they're going cold.

[00:23:03] And certainly does not mean that nothing is happening and no work is being done.

[00:23:06] Because there was a grand jury operating behind the scenes.

[00:23:09] Do you want to talk a bit about a grand jury and, like, what they do?

[00:23:13] Uh, grand juries, uh, basically in some jurisdictions, they're used by prosecutors to bring charges.

[00:23:22] So, if, if the prosecutor doesn't have either the power to, to conclude on his own that certain charges need to be filed, or if he wants to put that decision in the hands of others, he can present the information he has to a grand jury.

[00:23:41] And then the grand jury can decide whether or not charges are warranted.

[00:23:47] It's kind of an odd thing because if a prosecutor goes to a grand jury and basically presents charges in such a way to say, hey, I think you should do charges against this person, the grand jury would do it.

[00:24:01] So, it's the, the old joke again, I'm full of the old jokes and the old lines today is that, uh, a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

[00:24:11] Exactly.

[00:24:15] I mean, it's, it's cliche, but true.

[00:24:17] And, and the, I mean, like, that's why if, if a grand jury does not return an indictment, you often wonder, like, did the prosecutor try or like what happened there?

[00:24:26] Is that fair to say?

[00:24:27] Yeah, that's fair to say because a prosecutor can, uh, intentionally do a weak case and then tell the public, well, I tried.

[00:24:33] I tried, guys.

[00:24:34] And, and also sometimes a grand jury recommends charges and then those charges are not filed and maybe it will take a while for that even become public.

[00:24:45] The charges were recommended.

[00:24:46] The obvious case that comes to mind is in the, uh.

[00:24:48] JonBenet Ramsey.

[00:24:49] JonBenet Ramsey case.

[00:24:50] Yep.

[00:24:51] That whole mess.

[00:24:53] JonBenet Ramsey.

[00:24:54] And, uh, I think that, yeah, so that's sort of what happened here.

[00:24:57] Um, and again, like, I, I think sometimes people feel, and it, and certainly understandable if you, if you know a victim, if someone, you know, a loved one is killed, like there can be kind of a, what's being done right now.

[00:25:08] But sometimes there are things, grand jury, um, deliberations and whatnot, that whole process is, is out of the public view.

[00:25:15] That's not something the public is attending or watching happen.

[00:25:19] It's all very secret.

[00:25:21] So that happened and, and they returned an indictment for a young man named, uh, Sincere Hayes.

[00:25:27] And he is 22.

[00:25:28] He's from Chattanooga, Tennessee.

[00:25:30] And he turned himself in, uh, to the Hamilton County Jail in Tennessee, um, very recently.

[00:25:36] So who is this guy?

[00:25:39] Who is Hayes?

[00:25:39] What is his connection to Mercedes?

[00:25:41] Um, so according to Arizona's family, uh, website, the kind of article they did on this case, um, Mercedes's friend said they didn't know Hayes.

[00:25:50] Her father, Tom Pillsbury, said that, um, her, he, he didn't know him.

[00:25:55] His daughter didn't know him.

[00:25:56] But that he also, he also added that Hayes was the person he believed had most to do with Vega's death.

[00:26:01] So I'm assuming he's saying that based on what he's heard from law enforcement.

[00:26:04] And when I looked up Hayes, and this is, this was possible because he has such a distinctive name, um, the Elizabethan star, uh, out of Tennessee in 2013, listed Hayes as a boxer out of Chattanooga.

[00:26:18] At the time, he would have been about 11.

[00:26:20] But, um, ultimately, uh, he became much more known for crime than sports.

[00:26:25] He did crimes in Alabama and Tennessee.

[00:26:27] Um, he was charged with things like theft while possessing a firearm, driving recklessly with a handgun under the influence.

[00:26:37] Um, you know, he had a felony conviction out of Georgia and pending cases in Chattanooga misdemeanors, but he was armed in both.

[00:26:46] Um, there was some odd situation in February 2022 in Alabama where he was facing a gun charge.

[00:26:57] But then the investigator who was on it suddenly did not work for the sheriff's office anymore.

[00:27:04] And it was hit with a, uh, uh, no lay process, process way.

[00:27:09] I hope I'm saying that right.

[00:27:11] Latin where it's, it's essentially like the case was dropped.

[00:27:14] And apparently that was one of like around a hundred cases that were dropped because that investigator left under kind of suspicious circumstances seemingly.

[00:27:23] And, uh, you know, at that point he'd already kind of bounced out on his bond and failed to appear.

[00:27:28] But the case itself was dropped April 10th, 2023.

[00:27:32] And then just a few days later, of course, Mercedes was murdered.

[00:27:36] So, um, can you talk about that?

[00:27:39] Like, why would, uh, why would an investigator kind of maybe leaving in some sort of cloud make it so that all that person's cases could not be prosecuted?

[00:27:50] If a person, if an investigator left in a cloud, it would raise the possibility that perhaps his work on other cases could be flawed in such a way that could create reasonable doubt.

[00:28:06] And if the prosecution doesn't feel they can really stand behind a person's work and defend it, then really the only ethical course of action is to not prosecute those cases.

[00:28:18] Okay.

[00:28:19] Okay.

[00:28:19] That makes sense.

[00:28:20] And when I say cloud, I don't mean like a literal cloud.

[00:28:22] I mean like, like they, you know, some weird stuff seems to have happened there because if it was just like, Hey, I'm retiring, someone else can take the case.

[00:28:30] Right.

[00:28:30] Right.

[00:28:31] Like, but if it's like this raises questions about what I've been doing for years, then yeah.

[00:28:39] Then maybe it's best not to, uh, proceed.

[00:28:42] Exactly.

[00:28:43] Like to use our dumb serial example, if I was, if there's nothing dumb about it, but, but please go on.

[00:28:49] I think I would disagree.

[00:28:51] Well, I mean, I was the one that created it.

[00:28:54] So obviously it was very well reasoned, but please, please continue.

[00:28:58] You gave your wife a reputation for like bizarre serial theft that frankly, half our listeners, I don't think even understand.

[00:29:05] Please continue with the erudite serial example.

[00:29:10] So if I am charged with serial theft and the investigator who, you know, investigated the case was the lead detective on it, wrote the affidavit, then turns out to have like, I don't know, framed somebody else for stealing some waffles at another, you know, in another case.

[00:29:32] And they leave under a cloud of suspicion.

[00:29:36] My case might be dropped because I could just say, Hey, maybe the same thing happened to me.

[00:29:42] Maybe that's what's really going on, Kevin.

[00:29:44] Not that you'd believe your wife.

[00:29:46] And that's how you got the charges dropped most recently.

[00:29:49] But we know the truth.

[00:29:52] So please continue.

[00:29:53] So that's why that happened.

[00:29:55] It's obviously very unfortunate given the tragedy that unfolded, obviously, you know, potentially if this guy is linked to it.

[00:30:04] But anyway, so Hayes was extradited to Arizona.

[00:30:07] He's being held on a $2 million bond.

[00:30:10] His hearing about that was November 25th.

[00:30:13] I watched his appearance and he was pretty passive, although when asked about the amount, he did say, quote, I just feel like that's unconstitutional, end quote.

[00:30:23] And prosecutor Kirsten Valenzuela noted to the judge in that more arrests were expected in the case.

[00:30:32] So she wanted the warrant sealed.

[00:30:35] Now, Hayes will be back in court December 4th.

[00:30:41] And, you know, you might be wondering, so if Hayes has no connection to Mercedes, how did this happen?

[00:30:46] And we don't know that.

[00:30:48] But I will note something that was reported in some of the different outlets that I mentioned.

[00:30:52] And this is at the time of her death, Mercedes was helping the prosecution in a case where she was the victim.

[00:31:02] So a man named Cujo Young, who also is from Chattanooga, Tennessee, he was accused of following Vega in 2020 and robbing her at gunpoint after she left her workplace.

[00:31:15] And then about a month later, another dancer at her same club was targeted.

[00:31:19] Vega identified Young as the perpetrator and he was charged with armed robbery.

[00:31:24] He was out and wearing an ankle monitor at the time of her murder.

[00:31:28] And she was helping the prosecutor in that case.

[00:31:31] And so in November 2023, Young was also arrested for being involved in a drug operation, sort of a massive fentanyl pill operation.

[00:31:39] So he's been in prison ever since he's been rather incarcerated ever since then.

[00:31:44] But that really does raise a question.

[00:31:47] Could it be that somehow by sort of tests, you know, kind of being involved in this case against Young and then suddenly there's another man from Chattanooga who's accused of being involved in her death?

[00:32:02] Could that have a link?

[00:32:03] And it seems like that's a not an unreasonable guess to make at this point.

[00:32:08] Right.

[00:32:09] When it comes to a situation, if this is what it looks like and I'm not saying that it is, but if this is what it looks like and it's some kind of retaliation for reporting a crime or being a witness against somebody.

[00:32:23] Can you talk a little bit about how that's sort of perceived in our criminal justice system as opposed to like, you know, other kinds of murders?

[00:32:34] Obviously, any murder is incredibly serious.

[00:32:38] But when you are murdering or trying to intimidate or threaten someone who is a witness, you're basically trying to strike the criminal justice system itself.

[00:32:52] Because when you make people afraid to be a witness and share what they know in court, when you make it impossible for them to share what they know in court because you murder them, you are really impeding the process itself.

[00:33:07] And so that is a unique injury to all of us.

[00:33:13] Yeah, it's an attack on the justice system.

[00:33:15] And so, yeah, it's horrible.

[00:33:19] I feel terrible for Mercedes's family and friends.

[00:33:22] And, you know, it sounds like this is going to be, I don't know, unfolding even more as time goes on because it sounds like this was, you know, a group may have been involved in a conspiracy to commit this murder.

[00:33:37] And we'll have to just kind of tune in and see what happens over time.

[00:33:44] Ready to move on?

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:45] So my sources for this case, WKRN, Thunder 1320 and News Channel 5.

[00:33:56] And, you know, Anya, when we look and try to pick cases for the program, maybe you try to find, oh, here's a case a lot of people are talking about.

[00:34:07] Maybe they'd be interested in our perspective.

[00:34:08] That may have been a factor you considered with the cases you chose today.

[00:34:13] Or sometimes I might say, oh, here is a case with some novel legal issues that can really help enlighten and help people understand things.

[00:34:23] I could think that.

[00:34:24] But sometimes you just see, like, a really cool headline.

[00:34:30] And so I want to tell you a headline for one of these stories covering this case.

[00:34:36] And I'm sure you'll be with me.

[00:34:38] You see this headline.

[00:34:39] And how can you not say, let's include it.

[00:34:43] Let's read it.

[00:34:44] Let's read everything we can about this.

[00:34:46] This is the headline, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:34:48] Did a Tennessee district attorney go too far in shooting at a murder suspect?

[00:34:56] We asked a legal expert.

[00:35:02] That's a perfect headline.

[00:35:04] I'm sorry.

[00:35:06] And to be clear, I'm laughing because no one was killed in that incident.

[00:35:10] No one was killed in the incident.

[00:35:11] In the shooting incident.

[00:35:12] Obviously, there was a murder.

[00:35:13] But let me just say, like.

[00:35:16] That's a great headline.

[00:35:16] That sounds like a click hole headline.

[00:35:18] Like 15 legal experts on why it's not a good idea for prosecutors to gun down suspects.

[00:35:24] For me, I was thinking, and I was wrong.

[00:35:27] I was thinking, like, this must have been, like, an incident in, like, a cross-exam.

[00:35:31] No.

[00:35:31] Like, this is in the courtroom.

[00:35:34] And, you know, maybe the defense attorney says, I object.

[00:35:38] And the prosecutor says, overruled.

[00:35:40] And, like.

[00:35:41] Pulls out a gun.

[00:35:42] That's what I was thinking.

[00:35:43] And, frankly, that's what I was hoping.

[00:35:44] And it's not quite like that.

[00:35:49] It's not like that.

[00:35:52] I object and, like, pulls out a machine gun.

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:56] The defense attorney says, I object.

[00:35:58] Oh, my God.

[00:36:00] Overruled.

[00:36:00] Overruled.

[00:36:01] He pulls out a gun.

[00:36:02] You know what?

[00:36:02] There's your scene.

[00:36:03] I would watch that movie.

[00:36:05] Why didn't we go to a trial like that?

[00:36:09] Well, thank goodness we didn't.

[00:36:11] It would have been interesting.

[00:36:11] You said you wish there had been gunplay at one of the murder trials we've been at?

[00:36:15] No.

[00:36:16] So here's what happened.

[00:36:19] It's interesting.

[00:36:20] Not quite that interesting.

[00:36:22] But it is interesting.

[00:36:23] It involved, happened in Tennessee, Warren County District Attorney Chris Stanford, whose actions, we should note, are currently under investigation by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.

[00:36:38] So there is a person who is a suspect in a triple homicide.

[00:36:46] And this person is Caleb Brookins, who is 28 years old.

[00:36:52] And deputies, sheriff deputies, get information that he is in a particular area.

[00:37:00] And for whatever reason, whatever reason, the prosecutor, the district attorney thinks, well, what I'll do is I'll go with them.

[00:37:10] But first, I'm going to put on body armor and all this other stuff.

[00:37:15] And he goes with them when they think they know where he is.

[00:37:19] And he seems to be headed towards a particular apartment complex.

[00:37:23] And law enforcement, including the prosecutor, are all sitting there waiting for him to come.

[00:37:30] And they see him in the passenger seat of a particular vehicle driven by a woman named Hannah Rose.

[00:37:39] And so the deputies, they set up their perimeter.

[00:37:42] And this woman, Rose, she rams her vehicle into a sheriff's truck.

[00:37:48] And the sheriff's deputies are in that truck are not injured.

[00:37:54] But somehow in that incident, this woman does hit a Homeland Security officer and somehow hurts his leg.

[00:38:05] And so at some point subsequent to that, the prosecutor feels that the vehicle is now coming towards him.

[00:38:16] And so he pulls out his gun and starts shooting.

[00:38:22] And no one is injured.

[00:38:24] He doesn't really seem to hit anything.

[00:38:26] No other officer fires, which is a bit of a tell.

[00:38:29] And, you know, the arrest is made.

[00:38:32] And what do you think?

[00:38:35] I mean, this is crazy.

[00:38:38] That legal expert who they interviewed said, you know, this isn't a good idea.

[00:38:42] Prosecutors should stay in their lane.

[00:38:44] You shouldn't be going out putting on body armor and taking parts in arrest.

[00:38:49] And then a prosecutor should not be put into a situation.

[00:38:52] I can't believe I have to say this.

[00:38:54] A prosecutor should not be put into a situation where he might be exchanging gunfire with a suspect.

[00:39:00] That's a job police do.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:03] Like, so, OK, from speaking with attorneys on the show and and off the record, you know, it's not you might have a prosecutor go to like a search warrant to be on hand to deal with like legal questions.

[00:39:19] Or like you might, you know, like maybe even maybe even other things like they might go out into the field at times for whatever reason.

[00:39:26] That's not weird.

[00:39:27] That's not weird at all.

[00:39:29] But donning body armor sort of.

[00:39:31] And taking part in an arrest of someone who is suspected of of having committed a violent crime.

[00:39:40] And I think it's a tell.

[00:39:42] It's too gung ho to be showing up in body armor.

[00:39:44] I think it's a tell.

[00:39:46] You know, we live in on you always says we live in a fallen world.

[00:39:50] There's a lot of violence.

[00:39:51] There's a lot of danger.

[00:39:53] And sometimes it is necessary.

[00:39:56] Much as we hate to say it, it's necessary for police officers to in self-defense shoot at.

[00:40:03] Oh, it definitely is.

[00:40:04] Definitely.

[00:40:04] It's not a question.

[00:40:06] I think the decision about whether or not to use potentially deadly force should be in the hands of people who've been trained like law enforcement shouldn't be in the hands of random prosecutors who God love us all.

[00:40:20] God love the attorneys.

[00:40:23] Really great at doing legal work.

[00:40:26] Maybe not so great at making those sorts of life and death decisions.

[00:40:33] And this prosecutor has said, well, you know, I participated in firearms training.

[00:40:39] So, you know, hey, what do you think?

[00:40:41] But the Tennessee Department of Insurance and Commerce says, well, there's no records of him doing that.

[00:40:46] There's no records of him participating in this.

[00:40:48] And the fact that he and he alone was firing and that the people there who had more training, including Homeland Security officers, they're not firing.

[00:40:57] That makes me really wonder, was it necessary to fire?

[00:41:00] Yeah, and it just seems like there's too much gung-ho-ness there.

[00:41:03] You know, like that's like not, you know, like you really want something to happen almost.

[00:41:09] But I don't know.

[00:41:09] And also it causes a logistical problem when you do something like this, because if I'm a prosecutor and I go out and I'm shooting at my suspects, I kind of become a participant in the whole affair.

[00:41:25] And when you are a participant and a potential witness, you can't really then prosecute.

[00:41:31] So now he's not even going to be able to prosecute this case.

[00:41:34] It's being given to another prosecutor in another jurisdiction.

[00:41:38] So he just created this big mess for himself.

[00:41:41] Does it change your mind at all that the people in the vehicle like rammed their vehicle into a sheriff's truck, I guess?

[00:41:50] Like does that make it a little bit better?

[00:41:54] I'm sure he was scared.

[00:41:56] I don't doubt that he was scared.

[00:41:58] But as I say, these decisions about whether or not to discharge a firearm, let's look at what law enforcement does.

[00:42:07] And there were law enforcement there standing by him and they're not firing.

[00:42:12] Right.

[00:42:13] And I think as maybe the issue is showing up like that rather than necessarily, you know, like it's like you're putting yourself in this position to possibly make some mistakes.

[00:42:25] And thank goodness no one was killed in this shooting.

[00:42:28] Yeah.

[00:42:28] And obviously vehicles ramming into things, I can understand that that is scary.

[00:42:33] And maybe it's a gray area and maybe certainly in some circumstances, if you have a vehicle coming towards you or whatever, sure, go ahead and fire.

[00:42:44] God be with you.

[00:42:45] But the fact that no law enforcement agents there took a shot at this vehicle, that really makes me think that he may have been exaggerating the danger.

[00:42:57] It might not have been a good judge about how much danger he was truly in.

[00:43:01] Yeah, it sounds like the Homeland Security officer's leg was injured.

[00:43:04] So like someone did get hurt because of the ramming.

[00:43:07] But yeah, it definitely raises some questions.

[00:43:10] And it's like I think there's situations where you like might have – I don't know.

[00:43:16] Like if there's a dangerous situation unfolding and a prosecutor happens to be there and armed, that's a bit different than like this, which is more like showing up to a –

[00:43:26] He's like going out with them as they're preparing to make an arrest and as they're hunting down a violent felon or someone who is alleged to have committed a very violent act.

[00:43:37] I believe it was a triple homicide.

[00:43:40] Why was he there?

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:44] I'm going to quote what their legal expert said in this news story.

[00:43:49] A district attorney never needs to be in a situation at a crime scene discharging a weapon.

[00:43:57] Everyone has a role and people need to stay in their lanes.

[00:44:00] And I don't – I'm a little bit surprised we have to make that point.

[00:44:04] But it is true.

[00:44:05] We don't want our prosecutors going to crime scenes and taking shots at people.

[00:44:10] When that happens, a failure has occurred somewhere in the process, at least in my opinion.

[00:44:17] What do you think?

[00:44:17] Do you support this?

[00:44:18] Do you want prosecutors to be going out and having adventures and like starring in their own action movies?

[00:44:24] Is that what you want, Anya?

[00:44:27] Challenge me.

[00:44:28] Challenge me.

[00:44:29] I feel like you're making it sound too cool for the – like if there are prosecutors listening, they're like, yeah.

[00:44:35] They're a loose cannon with nothing to lose.

[00:44:37] No, I mean they – I don't want that.

[00:44:39] I think everyone should stay in their lanes and I think police are especially trained for that.

[00:44:46] And prosecutors are especially trained to prosecute and, you know, never the twain shall meet.

[00:44:53] Obviously, this is a situation where there's like some kind of armed standoff that erupts suddenly.

[00:44:58] What does the lead voiceover on Law & Order teach us?

[00:45:01] They're separate.

[00:45:03] The lawyers and the police.

[00:45:04] But equally important.

[00:45:05] Equally important, but they are separate.

[00:45:08] Yeah.

[00:45:08] No, I think this seems concerning.

[00:45:12] Even if ultimately they find that, you know, this was, you know, understandable or that his reaction was understandable given the circumstances, I think hopefully it would be a lesson to – I mean not that I don't think – I don't think this is a huge problem.

[00:45:25] I mean not that I don't think, like a lot of prosecutors are like packing and like waiting to, you know, get into a gunfight hopefully.

[00:45:31] But, you know, that would be something that I think most people would find not ideal.

[00:45:38] Well, I mean right now the incident is being investigated.

[00:45:41] So there is a non-zero chance that this person could be found, that this district attorney could be found to have broken the law.

[00:45:48] Oh, my God.

[00:45:49] And done reckless endangerment.

[00:45:50] But –

[00:45:50] Jeez, what a mess.

[00:45:53] Yeah, and then like they got to get a special prosecutor I guess.

[00:45:59] So it all depends about whether or not they accept the – basically the self-defense claim.

[00:46:04] This car is coming at me.

[00:46:06] I had no choice.

[00:46:06] And maybe they will.

[00:46:08] We don't know what's going to happen.

[00:46:09] Maybe they will.

[00:46:09] Maybe there's evidence for that.

[00:46:10] So there's that issue.

[00:46:11] What did a crime occur?

[00:46:12] And then the other question is, is this a good thing?

[00:46:16] Should he even have been there?

[00:46:17] That's a more important, I think, aspect of this.

[00:46:20] So you don't care about whether or not a crime occurred?

[00:46:22] I care about whether a crime occurred.

[00:46:24] I'm just saying that like without having been there, I don't think we can say either way conclusively.

[00:46:30] We can say that there are things about this that raise red flags.

[00:46:33] But I don't –

[00:46:34] To say the least.

[00:46:35] To say the least.

[00:46:36] But I don't feel like –

[00:46:36] And apparently there's like some video footage of it.

[00:46:39] Okay.

[00:46:39] So the whole incident has been reported.

[00:46:42] I'm sure every – you know, we can learn more through the investigation.

[00:46:45] But it's certainly concerning.

[00:46:47] But more importantly, I think the idea is like, you know, should we have even gotten this far down the road?

[00:46:54] And I think the answer is no.

[00:46:56] And I think what that – did you even name the legal expert?

[00:47:01] I feel like you should shout that out.

[00:47:02] I should name the legal expert.

[00:47:03] The mysterious sage from Tennessee is absolutely right.

[00:47:08] And people should always stay in their lanes.

[00:47:10] People should always stay in their lane.

[00:47:12] That's why the lanes are there.

[00:47:14] The lanes are there for a reason.

[00:47:17] Who is this person?

[00:47:18] Who is this mysterious person?

[00:47:20] He is News Channel 5 legal analyst Nick Leonardo.

[00:47:25] Okay.

[00:47:25] Thank you, Mr. Leonardo.

[00:47:27] Because I think he's studied nicely.

[00:47:29] Words of wisdom.

[00:47:30] Here's another quote from this expert.

[00:47:32] He said, it is extremely rare to see a district attorney involved in any apprehension or police work.

[00:47:40] And there's a reason for that.

[00:47:46] Like I can't imagine.

[00:47:48] Maybe if you want to talk about fictional detectives, do you watch Law & Order SVU?

[00:47:53] There's a prosecutor on that show who used to be a police officer.

[00:47:57] Wow, now you're citing fiction.

[00:47:59] I mean, yeah.

[00:48:00] But here – okay.

[00:48:02] So like –

[00:48:02] This seems like something out of a bad TV show.

[00:48:05] It does seem like something out of a bad TV show.

[00:48:07] Action prosecutor.

[00:48:09] And like I think you – like I don't know.

[00:48:13] I don't – like we've done cases in depth where we've like scrutinized prosecutors' offices and, you know,

[00:48:20] in different counties in Indiana and beyond.

[00:48:23] And it's just like thinking about like those individuals.

[00:48:26] I can't even imagine any of them doing anything remotely like this because it's just so off the wall.

[00:48:31] But I guess you get different personalities and this can happen.

[00:48:37] Different personalities.

[00:48:38] Different personalities.

[00:48:39] Yes.

[00:48:40] Takes all kind to make up a world, doesn't it, Anya?

[00:48:43] I guess so.

[00:48:46] Oh, man.

[00:48:48] Yeah.

[00:48:49] Thank you for finding this.

[00:48:50] This one was wild.

[00:48:52] That was a wild one.

[00:48:53] Yeah.

[00:48:53] Like did this just pop up on your feed?

[00:48:56] I just like want to know like you said the headline, but how did you even find this?

[00:49:00] Oh, I have my voice.

[00:49:01] Oh, you have your – oh, you have your sources.

[00:49:02] Am I supposed to like give away my secrets?

[00:49:04] No, I'm not saying you have to do that.

[00:49:05] And then we have like a fleet of murder sheet impersonators.

[00:49:10] That's your concern?

[00:49:12] Isn't it your concern?

[00:49:13] Oh, my God.

[00:49:14] Do you not care?

[00:49:15] Now I'm concerned about like prosecutor-related shootouts locally.

[00:49:20] I don't think our prosecutors are going to do that.

[00:49:23] I don't see like Nick McLean donning body armor.

[00:49:26] Oh, God.

[00:49:26] No.

[00:49:27] Well, that's what I was saying.

[00:49:28] Like most prosecutors –

[00:49:29] I don't see Ted Adams, Brown County, Indiana prosecutor donning body armor.

[00:49:33] Most prosecutors I think are like rule followers personality-wise to a certain extent or you would hope.

[00:49:41] But that's been the ones that we've like studied and encountered in our work.

[00:49:47] And so it's just amusing the idea of any of those people doing something because I can't imagine that.

[00:49:52] But it's funny.

[00:49:53] So you say you find the juxtaposition between a rule follower and outrageous behavior to be droll.

[00:50:00] I knew you were going to say droll.

[00:50:03] I knew that.

[00:50:04] It might provoke a sense of merriment.

[00:50:06] It's not merriment because like people could have died here.

[00:50:09] But like it's definitely –

[00:50:10] See, that's another thing.

[00:50:10] He didn't even hit anything.

[00:50:12] So it's like a complete failure.

[00:50:15] Well, I mean thank goodness he didn't.

[00:50:16] That would have been – I mean a human life wasn't worth a minor car accident or –

[00:50:22] You know, like it's awful that someone got injured but like it's better that nobody died here.

[00:50:28] I know that's a hot take.

[00:50:29] It's a hot take.

[00:50:30] You go down on a limb there.

[00:50:31] I know I'm really –

[00:50:33] You're really –

[00:50:33] You like it better when incidents don't end in death.

[00:50:36] Yes, I like it better when incidents don't end in death.

[00:50:38] I know you're going to have to rein me in here but, you know, that's my preference at least.

[00:50:43] I don't know if I speak for everyone but –

[00:50:45] Yeah, it's a mess.

[00:50:47] This is a mess.

[00:50:47] But I'll be curious to see what the investigation says.

[00:50:50] Yes.

[00:50:51] And I wonder like who's running the investigation because how can they ensure that like –

[00:50:54] The Texas Bureau of Investigation.

[00:50:56] The TBI.

[00:50:57] The Texas Bureau of –

[00:50:58] Pardon me.

[00:50:59] I'm looking ahead to the next case.

[00:51:01] The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.

[00:51:04] Texas is suddenly coming in and dealing with everything.

[00:51:08] Oh, man.

[00:51:09] All right.

[00:51:09] Well –

[00:51:10] So this next case involves a woman named Ashley Grayson and she's prosecuted in Tennessee

[00:51:15] for things that occur in Tennessee.

[00:51:18] But she is a Texas woman.

[00:51:21] And so that in and of itself is an issue and that's what moved her offense into federal court,

[00:51:28] which is relevant because there's no parole for these types of federal offenses.

[00:51:35] So her sentence, which we'll get to later, she's going to have to serve the whole thing.

[00:51:41] So this Ashley Grayson is a Texas woman and she's what the kids call an influencer.

[00:51:51] Do you know what that is, Anya?

[00:51:52] What do you mean do I know it?

[00:51:53] Well, what's an influencer?

[00:51:55] I guess it's like an online person who like – I don't know.

[00:52:01] It's like making money selling stuff and kind of just like –

[00:52:04] like the stereotype is like they're always taking selfies or posting on TikTok and stuff.

[00:52:09] I mean like I don't have like a hard definition, but –

[00:52:12] Obviously you don't.

[00:52:14] That's what I was hoping for.

[00:52:16] I'm sorry.

[00:52:16] I don't – I'm not on a lot of social media anymore.

[00:52:19] So she is this influencer and she, at least by her own claims, by her own account,

[00:52:27] she's wildly successful at.

[00:52:31] She's a bestseller, whatever that means.

[00:52:33] What does that mean?

[00:52:34] What is – like what is her – is she like a beauty influencer?

[00:52:38] Business.

[00:52:39] A business influencer.

[00:52:41] A business influencer and a philanthropist.

[00:52:44] A philanthropist?

[00:52:46] What just happened?

[00:52:47] She loves her fellow man.

[00:52:50] Philanthropist.

[00:52:51] Philanthropist.

[00:52:53] She loves her fellow man.

[00:52:55] She creates classes for people.

[00:52:58] She makes by her own account, at least at some point, by her own claims, eight figures.

[00:53:05] What?

[00:53:06] So that would be like what?

[00:53:09] At least 10 to 99 million?

[00:53:13] You're looking at me baffled.

[00:53:15] Like as an influencer?

[00:53:17] Yeah.

[00:53:17] I'm not saying – this is what she says.

[00:53:20] Okay.

[00:53:20] But do we know that that's true?

[00:53:22] I haven't looked at her financial records.

[00:53:24] I tried.

[00:53:25] Have you looked at her philanthropy records?

[00:53:28] Oh, my sources for this, by the way, were a release from the Justice Department and also Fox 4 News.

[00:53:35] Because it was a federal case, the records should have been available on Pacer.

[00:53:39] But most of the records on Pacer, in this case, which would have been interesting, were sealed.

[00:53:45] Yeah.

[00:53:46] Oh, wow.

[00:53:46] Okay.

[00:53:47] That's kind of weird.

[00:53:48] To my dismay, if I can be frank.

[00:53:51] Don't get too out of line here.

[00:53:54] Just calm down.

[00:53:56] So eight figures.

[00:53:58] She said –

[00:53:59] What are we doing wrong?

[00:54:00] I mean like also when we say businesses, what is she – what is a business –

[00:54:05] Well, I'll give you an example.

[00:54:09] She once said that in just 40 minutes –

[00:54:12] Okay.

[00:54:12] She made a million dollars.

[00:54:17] Let me finish.

[00:54:18] Let me finish.

[00:54:18] In 40 minutes once, she made a million dollars with an online course which was designed to teach people how to create online courses.

[00:54:29] It's like the inception of online courses.

[00:54:38] That's – I'm so – in 40 minutes.

[00:54:43] 40 minutes.

[00:54:44] 40 minutes.

[00:54:45] Created a course to teach people how to create courses.

[00:54:48] It's the number that gets me.

[00:54:49] A million dollars.

[00:54:50] It's like how – like the number – like 39 minutes in, somebody came in and dumped a million dollars on it.

[00:54:57] I don't – I'm – and she's teaching others how to turn their skills into online courses.

[00:55:02] And apparently this is like a thriving industry or subset because then she has – she's friends with somebody and then they're not friends anymore.

[00:55:13] And it's this woman from Mississippi who apparently wants to be the next Ashley Grayson and she has a –

[00:55:20] Don't we all?

[00:55:21] If you're making a million dollars in 40 minutes on your online course scam pyramid scheme.

[00:55:30] So this woman wants to be the next Ashley Grayson.

[00:55:34] She has a business, an online business similar to Ashley Grayson's.

[00:55:38] And the two women, they have a dispute.

[00:55:42] And Ashley starts feeling like, well, maybe this other woman is like creating fake profiles and going online and saying terrible things about me, Ashley, trying to hurt my business.

[00:55:56] So that gets under her skin.

[00:55:58] I mean that's not – that's not nice for people to do and I could see being annoyed by that.

[00:56:02] Don't even know if it's true.

[00:56:03] We don't know if it's true.

[00:56:04] But like if she –

[00:56:05] Ashley thinks it is.

[00:56:07] Miss Grayson thinks it is.

[00:56:08] And she says, well, I'm going to do something about it.

[00:56:10] And maybe in the process because she's one of these business people, everything is an opportunity.

[00:56:15] She says, I can deal with this problem by creating an opportunity for someone else.

[00:56:20] And so she has a friend, a woman in Tennessee who apparently she has done some sort of work with before.

[00:56:28] And she says, fly to Dallas where I am, bring your husband with you, and we will discuss a business opportunity.

[00:56:37] And if you have a woman who is making – in 40 minutes is making a million dollars and is making 10 to $99 million a year.

[00:56:47] And she says, come to my house.

[00:56:49] I've got a business opportunity for you.

[00:56:51] Aren't you going to hop on that plane, Anya?

[00:56:53] Yeah.

[00:56:54] I want to learn how to do this online course.

[00:56:57] Shell game.

[00:56:59] Well, it turns out that this business opportunity that she was offering this woman and her husband were not – was not an online course to teach how to create an online course.

[00:57:10] It was something a little bit different.

[00:57:12] And I wonder how you would respond to this.

[00:57:14] She said to the woman, here's what I want you to do.

[00:57:18] You and your husband, I want you to kill three different people for me.

[00:57:22] And for each one you kill, I'll give you $20,000.

[00:57:26] So that's a cool $60,000, probably tax-free.

[00:57:30] How would you respond to that?

[00:57:34] Like I wouldn't do it if that's what you're asking.

[00:57:38] It feels like it was like an awkward – it would be like an awkward moment.

[00:57:40] I feel like somehow we would get into a situation like this where we would think we were meeting someone for like a podcast thing and then we'd get hit with this and be like, oh, yeah, okay, and then run.

[00:57:49] It's like an awkward moment.

[00:57:50] It's like –

[00:57:51] You would call the police.

[00:57:52] Well, that's what these people did.

[00:57:53] Okay.

[00:57:54] Good for them.

[00:57:54] So they –

[00:57:55] They're like – they're just like us because I would – I think – what I would do, I'd be like, oh, sorry, can I just get this?

[00:58:01] And then I'd be like trying to either record them or dial 911 or something.

[00:58:05] But they make Ashley think, yeah, we're in.

[00:58:08] This sounds like a great idea.

[00:58:10] Thanks so much for having us.

[00:58:12] Thank you so much for having us to discuss this business opportunity.

[00:58:17] We're in.

[00:58:18] Did they have to pay for their airfare to like go fly to –

[00:58:21] I assume that's in the sealed records.

[00:58:24] Oh, my God.

[00:58:24] Like I want to know –

[00:58:25] I want to have –

[00:58:26] They should write a book.

[00:58:27] I want to have a lengthy account of this meeting because I think it would be fascinating.

[00:58:31] They should write a book about this, the couple, like about their adventures in somehow getting into a murder scheme.

[00:58:37] Also, wouldn't you be kind of insulted like if people invited us to a dinner and then asked us to do something?

[00:58:42] It's like, wow, do we just come across like scumbags who would like kill somebody?

[00:58:46] Like is that the vibe we're putting out into the world?

[00:58:49] Like would the – I'd be so insulted.

[00:58:54] Like I'd like – this would hurt my self-confidence.

[00:58:59] So they then at some point afterwards, they cooperating with authorities.

[00:59:05] They take a video call – they take a call with Ms. Grayson and they video record it.

[00:59:12] And in this call, she confirms, yeah, you understand correctly.

[00:59:16] I want you to kill these people.

[00:59:18] And you know what?

[00:59:19] If you kill that Mississippi woman like within the next week, I'll toss in an extra $5,000 for your trouble.

[00:59:25] So she – all of this is recorded.

[00:59:28] And this is all because she thinks but does not know that the Mississippi woman may be saying rude things about her online.

[00:59:35] That's what – and you know what?

[00:59:36] What's scary is like I feel like I know people in true crime where I could see this exact same scenario playing out.

[00:59:42] Like not even – not even kidding.

[00:59:44] I am like being completely serious.

[00:59:47] I could absolutely see this happening.

[00:59:48] So anyways, continue.

[00:59:50] I want to tell you another detail which I suspect you're going to enjoy.

[00:59:54] So at some point, this couple, they take a picture of police lights.

[01:00:02] They just take a picture.

[01:00:03] This is for an unrelated incident in their hometown of Memphis.

[01:00:07] So I guess they're driving by.

[01:00:08] They see some police cars with the lights flashing.

[01:00:11] They take a picture of it.

[01:00:12] Nothing wrong with that.

[01:00:14] But then they take this picture and they send it to Ms. Grayson and say, oh, look, here's proof.

[01:00:20] We tried to kill her but the police came.

[01:00:22] So, you know, it didn't work out for us.

[01:00:24] And –

[01:00:26] What?

[01:00:27] And so because we tried, you know, we tried really hard.

[01:00:31] You should at least give us some money, right?

[01:00:33] And so she said, sure.

[01:00:34] And so they go back to Dallas and at this point they give – Ms. Grayson gives them $10,000.

[01:00:42] Wow.

[01:00:43] For this – basically this picture of police lights.

[01:00:46] And so sometime after that she's arrested.

[01:00:50] So did they get to keep that money?

[01:00:53] I'm assuming no.

[01:00:54] I'm assuming no.

[01:00:55] In fact, I don't know it for a fact but I know it for a fact.

[01:01:00] Yeah, no.

[01:01:01] That's wild.

[01:01:04] So she's charged with attempted murder and using interstate – using interstate facilities for trying to commission a murder for hire.

[01:01:20] So no one died.

[01:01:21] So no one died.

[01:01:22] That's why we were laughing so much about this.

[01:01:23] We're not that heartless.

[01:01:25] As Anya mentioned before, everything's better when no one dies.

[01:01:29] Yeah, we like that.

[01:01:30] That's the credo of whenever you throw a dinner party.

[01:01:33] Yeah.

[01:01:35] Too bad you haven't been able to live by that though.

[01:01:39] So no one died and it was stopped.

[01:01:42] And because this thing happened in Tennessee and Texas.

[01:01:46] It's interstate.

[01:01:48] It's interstate and she's making people travel from one state to another.

[01:01:51] For business opportunities.

[01:01:53] For business opportunities involving crimes.

[01:01:54] She's hit with federal charges.

[01:01:57] Her husband is also charged.

[01:02:00] He – he's – those charges were – did not hold up.

[01:02:05] He was acquitted.

[01:02:05] So what do you make of that?

[01:02:07] Do you think the case against him was just weaker and maybe he didn't actually know about what she was doing?

[01:02:12] That's what I would assume.

[01:02:13] But again –

[01:02:15] It's all sealed.

[01:02:15] All these things were sealed.

[01:02:18] Certainly the details that were mentioned in the press release and in the articles dealt specifically with things this woman did.

[01:02:26] And so she was found guilty and she was sentenced to 10 years again with no parole.

[01:02:34] And the U.S. attorney in the case said, quote, this was a 21st century crime where online feuds and senseless rivalries bled into the real world.

[01:02:45] The defendant tried to hire someone to murder a woman over things that happened exclusively on the internet, end quote.

[01:02:54] So I –

[01:02:54] Call this the touch grass case.

[01:02:56] I mean, geez.

[01:02:57] Go outside.

[01:02:58] I think law enforcement needs to become more and more aware that the distinction between real life and the internet is getting harder and harder to see.

[01:03:07] And I think they need to take things that happen on the internet a lot more seriously.

[01:03:12] I completely agree because, yeah, like all sorts of bad goings on are happening there.

[01:03:20] And also it can spill out as we see here.

[01:03:22] And this is like – who knows if the Mississippi woman was even doing anything?

[01:03:26] You have people who are so paranoid they perceive any sort of like whatever against them as like part of some nebulous web.

[01:03:33] And like that is just how some people are.

[01:03:36] They see the connections there.

[01:03:37] And they're making connections that may not exist.

[01:03:40] And they might do violence against people they perceive as their enemies.

[01:03:44] And yeah, can completely see this playing out in true crime, first of all.

[01:03:48] Second of all, can you imagine being one of her former customers who like paid for one of these online seminars and then like –

[01:03:57] Here's how – oh, thanks, Ashley.

[01:03:58] I'm going to make a million dollars.

[01:04:00] And then like you see you're getting arrested and on trial for this.

[01:04:04] How embarrassing.

[01:04:05] If you have such a magic touch that in 40 minutes you can create a class on how to create a class and make a million dollars on it.

[01:04:14] In 40 minutes.

[01:04:16] Who cares?

[01:04:17] Just do that all day.

[01:04:20] I have a question.

[01:04:21] So maybe you could create a podcast about how to create podcasts.

[01:04:25] I'll make a million dollars in 40 minutes.

[01:04:28] I can't wait.

[01:04:29] Like, yeah, sorry, Murder Sheet fans.

[01:04:32] Moving on to something more lucrative and timely.

[01:04:37] Here's a question because I have two minds.

[01:04:40] Do we think that she like was lying about that?

[01:04:43] Because I know like everyone listening is probably like obviously she was Anya, you naive fool.

[01:04:48] But like she did have a lot of money seemingly to throw around on like a – like literally, pardon my French, but literally a half-assed assassination attempt.

[01:04:58] I mean $10,000 for failing to kill somebody?

[01:05:03] Like that's very generous.

[01:05:05] So maybe –

[01:05:06] Oh, so you're pretty well aware of what the rates are?

[01:05:09] No, I don't know what the rates are.

[01:05:10] Is that what you're saying?

[01:05:11] I don't know what the rates are.

[01:05:12] I don't know what the rates are.

[01:05:14] I'm just saying that's a lot of money to throw at anything.

[01:05:17] And she's doing it for something that like they did not achieve what she wanted.

[01:05:22] And that's – she seems to have a lot of money is all I'm saying.

[01:05:25] So maybe the 40 minutes was real.

[01:05:27] But I don't know how that could be.

[01:05:30] That's the thing that's bothering me most about this.

[01:05:32] It sounds like you like feel sorry for her because she was duped by these people.

[01:05:36] I don't feel sorry for her.

[01:05:38] You just sent her a picture of police lying.

[01:05:39] She completely deserves what she got here.

[01:05:41] This is a horrible thing to be like literally in all seriousness to be trying to kill somebody over some online drama is ridiculous.

[01:05:48] And she absolutely deserves to be in prison for 10 years.

[01:05:51] But in my opinion, it's more of the like it says she has a lot of money.

[01:05:56] So I guess I'm just saying that maybe the 40 minutes thing that we were laughing about maybe that was –

[01:06:01] You're saying you would become an influencer.

[01:06:02] I'm just saying I want to look at some stuff.

[01:06:05] No, I don't want to become an influencer.

[01:06:06] We could post pictures of you eating cereal.

[01:06:09] We could post pictures of police lights.

[01:06:12] People think we're hitmen.

[01:06:14] I don't want to be an influencer.

[01:06:17] And I don't understand this online course thing.

[01:06:22] And if she's really making a million dollars in 40 minutes doing that and is so dumb that she puts all of this in, you know, recorded phone calls with a couple that is obviously horrified by what she wants to do and immediately goes to police,

[01:06:40] then I think everyone who paid part of that million dollars for the online seminar should feel deeply ashamed and embarrassed and maybe question what the heck they're doing because obviously she doesn't know how to do anything, frankly.

[01:06:54] Is that fair to say?

[01:06:56] No, just because –

[01:06:58] Oh, you can be talented in other ways.

[01:07:00] Yeah.

[01:07:01] A person is not equally talented in everything.

[01:07:04] And obviously if she can get people to give her a million dollars to take a course on how to create a course, she's got something going for it.

[01:07:13] Okay, so you support this.

[01:07:14] Maybe there's no moral sense.

[01:07:15] Maybe she has no moral sense, but that doesn't mean she's not a good business person.

[01:07:19] I think you'd have to be pretty dumb to go about planning a murder in this way when you're literally just like leaving all these loose ends all over the place and very much like openly saying it.

[01:07:30] Like, oh, they want to call me back on a video call?

[01:07:32] Well, you know, sure, let me just reiterate.

[01:07:35] Yes, I would like you to murder somebody.

[01:07:37] Here's how much I'm offering for it.

[01:07:39] Thanks for calling.

[01:07:40] Like, I don't know.

[01:07:42] I don't know.

[01:07:44] But yeah, that does – I don't know.

[01:07:50] I always think true crime is such a dramatic online space and people are, you know, constantly threatening each other and, like, doing all sorts of things.

[01:07:57] And at the very least, like, this makes me feel like at least probably the online seminar course world is just as bad.

[01:08:07] Business influencers, that's what – you don't expect that, but that's where the violence is.

[01:08:13] Oh, before we go, I did want to mention in passing that if you're interested in T-shirts, you can buy them at murdersheetshop.com.

[01:08:20] That's your ad?

[01:08:23] That's your ad?

[01:08:24] Look at me.

[01:08:25] What the heck?

[01:08:26] People have been waiting all week for this and that's what you do?

[01:08:30] Well, you say sometimes when my ads are classless and they make too many extravagant claims.

[01:08:36] So are you saying that's the way you want me to do it?

[01:08:38] No.

[01:08:39] If that's what you want –

[01:08:40] Find a balance.

[01:08:40] If that's what you want, it can be done.

[01:08:43] You know what, Kevin?

[01:08:43] If you want to make a million dollars in 40 minutes off these shirts, that's not going to cut it.

[01:08:48] That's not going to do it.

[01:08:50] What we should have done is include with the shirts a pamphlet of how to sell shirts.

[01:08:59] Oh, no.

[01:09:02] Start the cycle again.

[01:09:03] That's right.

[01:09:04] You're just saying that because the wife in this case got convicted and the husband got acquitted.

[01:09:09] You want to recreate it.

[01:09:12] Oh, why would I want that on?

[01:09:13] Yeah.

[01:09:16] God.

[01:09:17] Maybe if you get the shirts, it'll inspire you to create your own business.

[01:09:21] I thought you were going to say something else.

[01:09:23] What did you think I was going to say?

[01:09:25] Plot of murder.

[01:09:27] No.

[01:09:27] No.

[01:09:29] You don't understand.

[01:09:31] So you're saying that I should tell people that if you buy the shirt –

[01:09:35] I was worried you were going to say that.

[01:09:36] If you buy the shirt, it'll inspire you to commit a crime.

[01:09:40] I was concerned.

[01:09:41] How gauche.

[01:09:42] How gauche.

[01:09:43] I say if you buy these shirts and then wear them, it might inspire you to become a better person, a murder sheet person, if you will.

[01:09:52] A person of taste and refinement.

[01:09:55] That was pretty good.

[01:09:57] Thank you.

[01:09:58] Oh, Mr. Fancy.

[01:10:00] And someone emailed us today saying, you know, love it if you sign the shirt.

[01:10:04] And, you know, we're happy to sign shirts.

[01:10:06] We're happy to not sign shirts.

[01:10:08] And I think the prudent thing to do would be buy a shirt to keep pristine.

[01:10:12] Buy, like, another shirt that has just Anya's signature.

[01:10:15] Buy a third shirt that has my signature.

[01:10:18] Buy a fourth shirt that has both our signatures.

[01:10:19] Maybe buy a fifth shirt that we could, like, get Lanny's paw print on or something.

[01:10:23] Yeah.

[01:10:24] I'm sure she'd love that.

[01:10:27] She's, like, side-eyeing me, like, right now as she hears this.

[01:10:31] Look.

[01:10:32] Yeah, that's what she's saying.

[01:10:33] She's not happy.

[01:10:34] She doesn't want to be part of this narrative.

[01:10:39] What are we even talking about?

[01:10:42] I don't even – it's so off the rails.

[01:10:46] Yeah.

[01:10:47] I picked bad cases this week.

[01:10:49] No, your cases – I mean, I appreciated that I picked horrible, horrible.

[01:10:53] Horrible, depressing cases.

[01:10:54] And you picked cases where, in the incidents we discussed, nobody died.

[01:10:58] Nobody died.

[01:10:59] And that's good.

[01:11:00] It's good when nobody dies.

[01:11:01] As I – I know that was controversial before, but I will reiterate that.

[01:11:06] And I'm glad – that was some much-needed levity.

[01:11:12] As far as I know, I think we can all agree it's good when nobody dies.

[01:11:16] Yes.

[01:11:16] As far as I know, no one has ever died wearing a Murder Street shirt.

[01:11:22] Oh, my God.

[01:11:23] Don't say – like, that sounds horrible.

[01:11:26] Why are you putting that into people's minds?

[01:11:29] You should have quit while you were ahead.

[01:11:31] You had a nice moment.

[01:11:32] You had a nice moment.

[01:11:33] You needed to throw it all away.

[01:11:35] I'm just saying – because I'm sure if a tragedy happened when someone was wearing one of these shirts,

[01:11:40] we'd be notified.

[01:11:41] Why would we be notified?

[01:11:44] Who would notify us?

[01:11:48] Sorry, guys.

[01:11:49] They got one of your listeners.

[01:11:50] Why the hell – who would be calling us?

[01:11:52] Like, the local sheriff?

[01:11:54] Don't you monitor our downloads very carefully?

[01:11:57] Oh, so I can tell –

[01:11:58] So if someone passed away –

[01:11:59] We lost them.

[01:12:00] No, I don't monitor our downloads very carefully.

[01:12:05] And just – yikes.

[01:12:07] That's all I'm saying to you.

[01:12:09] Are we done?

[01:12:10] I think we're done with a lot of things.

[01:12:15] Oh, my gosh.

[01:12:17] Are you happy with yourself?

[01:12:21] What if you, like, created an online course about how to create an online course to help people create online courses?

[01:12:29] We could just keep going with that.

[01:12:31] Make millions of dollars in only a few minutes.

[01:12:37] It's my dream.

[01:12:38] It's my new dream.

[01:12:39] I mean –

[01:12:40] You wouldn't be the next Ashley Grayson only without the murders.

[01:12:43] Well, like, yeah.

[01:12:44] Or attempted murders.

[01:12:45] I like to – it's, you know, it's the obnoxious older sister in me that I like to explain things to people and, hey, here's how you do this.

[01:12:54] And so it would fulfill that.

[01:12:57] And it's pretty low stakes.

[01:12:59] I mean, what's the worst that can happen?

[01:13:01] You're going to create a bad online course?

[01:13:03] Oh, no.

[01:13:04] The worst thing that could happen is you could plot murder and be sent to prison.

[01:13:07] Well, that's up to me, and I'm not going to do that, obviously.

[01:13:14] Isn't it obvious?

[01:13:16] Yeah.

[01:13:17] Silence.

[01:13:19] And, you know, it sounds like a good way to make a living.

[01:13:24] So is this the last episode?

[01:13:26] No, it's not.

[01:13:27] We're not going to go into online courses.

[01:13:32] But maybe if she was – if she hadn't done this, we could because we could sign up for one of her courses about how to create courses.

[01:13:38] Yeah.

[01:13:38] I wonder if any of them are still online.

[01:13:42] I don't know.

[01:13:43] I didn't look.

[01:13:44] You didn't do a deep dive.

[01:13:45] I didn't read about this case and think, hmm, this Ashley Grayson seems to have a lot on the ball.

[01:13:51] Check out her stuff.

[01:13:54] Content creators run amok.

[01:13:56] Yeah, you just push the button.

[01:13:57] All right.

[01:13:58] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:14:01] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

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[01:15:12] Thanks again for listening.

[01:15:14] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:15:23] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:15:30] This show is phenomenal.

[01:15:33] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[01:15:44] This is a show for you.

[01:15:46] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[01:16:00] And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[01:16:13] I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:16:28] On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:16:32] Yes.

[01:16:32] He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:16:35] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:16:43] It's a really terrific show.

[01:16:45] We really recommend it highly.

[01:16:47] Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[01:16:48] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:16:51] He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:16:52] We've been on his show.

[01:16:54] He's a terrific guest.

[01:16:55] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:17:01] That really resonated.

[01:17:02] Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:17:08] She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:17:09] I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:17:10] That was so right.

[01:17:11] So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:17:16] Give it a try.

[01:17:16] I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:17:18] And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:17:29] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:17:34] And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:17:40] But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:17:51] It's compassionate.

[01:17:52] It's affirming.

[01:17:54] But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:17:57] People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:18:02] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:18:05] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:18:08] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:18:10] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:18:12] We're fans of the show.

[01:18:13] We love it.

[01:18:14] And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:18:16] Download some episodes.

[01:18:17] Listen, I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:18:21] But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:18:26] Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:18:27] Very easy to find.

[01:18:28] Absolutely.