The Cheat Sheet: Burnings and Barbershops

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[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning. This episode contains discussion of child abuse and the murder

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: of children as well as general violence and murder.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So today on the cheat sheet, we're going to be hitting

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: five cases, four homicide cases and one non homicide.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a horrific case of murder and child abuse out of North Carolina

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: where some of those involved seemingly have not been charged yet.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We have another case involving children, this time a troubling case of a

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: school shooting out of Georgia where there may have been signs on social media

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of an impending tragedy. And then out of Massachusetts,

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: we have a murder where graphic photos have actually leaked on social media.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: In Las Vegas, we have the murder of an investigative reporter who lost his life

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: digging into an out of control corrupt politician who then tried to dazzle the

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: jury with a stupid conspiracy theory. And then another case out of Indiana

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that does not involve a murder, but certainly involves corruption with

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: some details as spicy as St. Elmo's shrimp cocktail sauce.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: dives into murder cases.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We're the Murder Sheet.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the cheat sheet, burnings and barbershops.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with this awful case down in North Carolina.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the case involving the deaths of two children, Blake and London Devon.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And the person charged with criminal responsibility for those deaths is their

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: mother, Evante Devon.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And our sources for this were ABC 11 and WRAL.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Both of those outlets have done some really terrific coverage of this really

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: tragic case.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is really a heartbreaking one.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The mother in this case did not drop cases with her phone call.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They played a role in...

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to phrase this delicately.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: They played a role in, let's say, the disposal of Blake Devon's body.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And this sounds, when you hear it described, like a confession to a horrible crime.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And at least as of yet, this person has not been charged for their role in this,

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: despite this phone conversation.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: In this phone conversation, they describe watching and helping...

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the disposal of the body.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to spare you the graphic details.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing I found interesting about this is that WRAL went and talked to a former judge,

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Judge Carl Fox.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And he gave his speculation about why this person had not faced charges.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that speculation sounds pretty persuasive to me.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And what it boils down to is that his guess is the reason why this person who's made this

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: confession in a phone conversation, why that person has not been charged, is that they are

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: likely a cooperating witness of some kind in the investigation.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the problem is with cases like this, especially cases that have gone on for a while,

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it can be very difficult for a prosecutor to put together the evidence they need to make a

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: really strong case for the person they want to charge.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they need help, they need witnesses.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they often are in a situation where they might think, well,

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: ideally, we'd like to charge a bunch of people with crimes here.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: We can't do that.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We need some of them to cooperate.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So they have to try to evaluate which of the people involved in this crime is most culpable.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Who do we really want to go after?

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then focus on that and get other people to cooperate by offering them deals or what have you.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's how the system works.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we'd like to live in some magical society where a crime happens and instantly,

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, prosecutors have DNA evidence, surveillance footage of the crime and everything

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: materialized before them so they can charge everybody accordingly.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not the world we live in.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, one thing I was baffled about with this case is how the heck did Blake in

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: London go missing so long ago without alerting to anyone?

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was looking and it sounds like they were homeschooled.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So there wouldn't have been that necessarily like red flag when they stopped showing up to a

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: public school or private school.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like that's, you know, so.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So they've been missing for like years.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Years, years.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So in that situation, you absolutely have to deal with people who are less culpable.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to go after the person that you if you're a prosecutor,

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to go after the person you believe is the killer

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: or the very least the most culpable for the deaths of these kids.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't go.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if that means cooperating with someone who did something horrible, i.e.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: cover up the crimes, then that's what you have to do.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially if the person who you are inducing to cooperate with you,

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: if they're if they are a witness who can place the killer at the scene doing terrible things,

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to basically hold your nose and do that.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that is wonderful to do, but it's for the greater good,

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: especially if the alternative is if we don't do this,

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe we're not able to make a case against anybody.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We live in a world now where some people keep on

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: insisting that we need higher and higher standards of evidence.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people call this the CSI effect, where people are reluctant to convict unless

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: they have maybe a videotape of the crime or what have you.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We see this play out in some of the cases we cover,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: where there seems to be really strong evidence against the defendant.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the goalposts get moved by commentators.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is also another reason why you need to get as much evidence as possible.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think people should demand a high standard of evidence.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But in this situation, you know, that means making a deal with someone that makes sense.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's anything objectionable about that, in my view.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be objectionable if it turned out at the end of this that the speculation was incorrect and

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: they didn't need this person and they just weren't being charged.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that would concern me.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the judge's speculation seems pretty apt.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, you know, I can imagine that that's what they're doing.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a side of justice that maybe some people feel uncomfortable with,

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but it is part of the process we can't really get rid of.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So I have a case out of Georgia right now, which is really upsetting and

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: quite literally just happened.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And this also involves kids being harmed, unfortunately,

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: although the perpetrator is also a kid.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So my sources are CNN and WSB TV.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You may have seen in the news recently, because this has become a huge national story,

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that at Appalachie High School in Winder, Georgia on Wednesday, September 4th,

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a mass shooting.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe it was around eight or nine people were injured and four were killed.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The dead are 14-year-old students Mason Schermerhorn and Christian Angolo,

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and teachers Richard Aspinwall and Christina Ermey.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So these are children, two 14-year-old boys and then two teachers being killed at a school.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, unfortunately, in our country, it feels like something like this happening

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: gets less and less shocking the more it happens, but we should be shocked.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We should be horrified.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: This shouldn't be happening.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What happened was that 14-year-old Colt Gray, the suspected shooter,

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: apparently managed to sneak some kind of assault rifle into the school.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not sure how exactly he managed this.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Some sort of what's been described as an AR platform style weapon.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he left his class, left his algebra class.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They've interviewed some of his classmates who saw this,

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: then came back with the weapon.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: The kids in his class wouldn't let him back in.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Then he went into a neighboring classroom where the door was apparently open and opened fire.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And this ended when the school resource officer confronted him and got him to surrender.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's in custody.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He's charged with murder.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to be tried as an adult.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is interesting and it's horrifying, and my heart goes out to these families.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I watched all this footage of these parents of these kids who go to the school,

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: dropping everything, racing to the school.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: As they're hurrying over, they're having to consider, what if it's my kid this time?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They're contemplating with the fact that their child might be dead.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then for two families, that turned out to be true.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then for two families of these teachers, I mean, it just...

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of society is OK with this on some level?

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're OK with it if we keep on allowing it to happen.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But jumping off on that topic, it's come out that in May 2023, Colt Gray came on the radar.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: There was some kind of investigation into online threats to commit a shooting

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: at an unidentified school at an unspecified time.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And there were anonymous tips around that.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And the FBI Atlanta office and the Jackson County Sheriff's office came in to speak to Colt Gray.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And he denied making these posts, which apparently involved pictures of guns and whatnot.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And he denied it.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't seem like anything really further happened, except that the FBI

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of left it to the local county authorities.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And what was said was that there was no probable cause at that time.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So they couldn't go further.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And apparently the father of this child was interviewed and he claimed his son

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: did not have access to his hunting guns in the house.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not clear whether or not Colt Gray used his father's guns or a different gun.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not clear at this point, so we don't really know.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But one thing people have been doing is people are already voicing outrage about

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: how this was handled.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: How is it that yet another school shooter was on federal law enforcement's radar and

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: yet this happened?

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is one thing where I don't even necessarily want to have this conversation

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: delve into the fact that our society is awash in very easy to obtain guns on a legal and

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: an illegal basis.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd actually like to focus on just the reality of where we are now.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have a situation where somebody is seemingly making threats, what should happen

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: at that point?

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do we balance keeping people safe with also respecting our individual rights

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in a situation like this?

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious, based on what I just described, what are your thoughts about what might be

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: some things to consider?

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very difficult question because then speaking from a lawyer point of view, you

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: always have to ask about definitions.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you define what is a threat versus just what is just casual talk or what is just

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: bluster?

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what was described here was a threat to commit a school shooting at an unspecified

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: school on an unspecified date.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to do this.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But with no details?

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that's challenging.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you deal with that?

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand why they didn't.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there might be a very good reason for this, legally speaking.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just saying this is from my own ignorance.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand why they didn't necessarily seize his computer, phone and determine whether

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: or not he was lying about making the threats.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That seems like it would be the next step because if he's saying, that wasn't me, isn't

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: there a way to confirm that?

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently this is on a Discord.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So that would have felt like the natural next step.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then from there, I don't know.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a very interesting point and a possibility.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, the concern with that would be civil liberties issues.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: At what point is something sufficient that it should trigger the right or the desirability

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of the state to have the right to go through a person's communications in order to prove

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: or disprove something?

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: At what rate should a person feel compelled to do that?

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It gets very, very tricky.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And more interesting question here is also, we all agree that people who are children

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: have less rights than adults.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So do the parents in a situation like that, do they bear any special responsibility in

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: your mind?

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think they could.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's necessarily always true.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, we saw in the case of Ethan Crumbly, his parents were held accountable for their

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: role in essentially allowing the Oxford High School shooting to happen.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was fair in that case, what happened to Jennifer and James Crumbly.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They were, I mean, they were pretty much at the very far end of the spectrum in terms

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of culpability in that case.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And when it comes to this case, too much remains unknown.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We know the father had guns in the house, but we don't know that one of those was the

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: murder weapon in this situation.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of this would determine how culpable this man or other relatives are.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: If it's his gun and this kid was having improper access to it and he was aware of

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: issues, you know, possibly from the FBI or whatnot, then I think we're beginning to look

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: at something where like that is pretty concerning.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: If this kid got the gun somewhere else and perhaps the father just believed him, then

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're seeing a different situation.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to, there's no reason to sort of guess or jump to conclusions at this

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: point without having more information.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would never condemn this parent in this situation without knowing more.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think in general, when you have underage kids who are getting access to guns at home

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and bringing them and murdering other children, I personally believe that I would like to

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: see more culpability on the parents because unfortunately, the responsible gun owners

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who are not the problem here, you know, like it's the people who are ignoring their child's,

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, myriad issues and basically plunging their heads into the sand.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, my kid can never do that.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They're the problems.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps when you have people actually starting to go to prison over it, then you

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: might have some action with some of these types because, I mean, no parent should be

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: losing their children, no child should be losing their life because, you know, of essentially

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: neglectful parenting and neglectful gun ownership like this.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, that's way too early in the Georgia case right now to say that, to say either

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: way.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think personally, we're at a point where mass shootings have proliferated so

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: much that I wouldn't mind if there are things like explicit threats on the Internet that

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that would prompt more of an investigation and more of an ability to search and dig into

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: what somebody's intentions are, because I think we're just at a point as a society where

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: this, you know, this shouldn't be happening.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's a way to stop some of these things, then I'm fine with it.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe don't be stupid and make threats online.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be the thing for people to do.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're suggesting people just show up and...

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying that like if people are idly making threats to shoot up a school online,

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: then perhaps they have it coming if suddenly they get their phone seized.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's at this point where I am.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But I can understand why people would feel differently.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on to Dorchester, Massachusetts.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: There is an intriguing story here.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And first of all, let's talk about the tragedy of it all.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And my sources for this are WCVB, WB, Boston 25 News and the Boston Herald.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: This was an incident that happened in a barber shop in Dorchester, Massachusetts on Labor

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Day around one o'clock.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: A person is getting a haircut and someone walks in and shoots him execution style.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And someone else in the barber shop is also wounded.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And what is, of course, worth noting is the police pretty quickly came out and said this

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: was not a random event.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a threat to the community at large.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We're investigating.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's some indications that the killing was captured on surveillance footage.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're doing their investigation.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But the detail that really struck me about this is that someone, and it is not clear

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: who, after this shooting went into the barber shop and apparently with his phone videotaped

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the crime scene for about 30 seconds or so.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And this footage includes the deceased man with his grievous wound and some other people

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: who are injured.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And this footage has been posted to Twitter, and it has become widely available on Twitter.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And there is just something really repulsive about that.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And to be clear, like this is a young man.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: This this man's name is Elijah Clooney.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He was about to turn 21.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He's very young and he leaves behind a grieving family who loved him.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So my heart goes out to them.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But in addition to that, they shouldn't have to be living in a world where social media

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: giants are allowing this horrific footage to circulate.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Based on, you know, like you were able to find it.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you weren't even looking for it.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You were just looking up stuff about this case on social media and you saw this graphic

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: footage.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, the fact that I mean, and, you know, and there's this debate about why Twitter

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: advertisers are leaving.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, when you're just stumbling into this horrific footage, just looking up

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: information about a case, that's why.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, you keep in mind that whenever we go to Twitter or Facebook or whatever, we

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: are giving those companies a small percentage of money because these companies, these social

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: media companies basically are selling our time to advertisers.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So when we give them our time, they monetize that.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when there is footage of a murdered man's body showing up on Twitter, that's

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: basically monetized content for them.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's disgusting.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It really disgusts me.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, none of these giants want to do anything when it comes to content moderation,

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because then that kind of raises the question of whether they're an editorial company.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the very least, I hope we can all agree that there shouldn't be graphic death videos

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and videos and pictures of murdered people flooding these sites.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just wrong.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It shouldn't happen.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about the implications of social media threats earlier, and now this is the

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: aftermath of something horrible happening at this exclusive barbershop.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, it's horrible for this young man's family.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I really hope they get justice.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But I wish they didn't have to also deal with this situation.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not clear what the motive was, but some social media sites are indicating that

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the deceased man was a rapper.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so apparently there could have been like a rap rivalry.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, there is no reason good enough to warrant murder.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: When I first heard of barbershop murder, my thoughts, because I'm weird and I know about

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: this, is I went back to Albert Anastasia, who was a mob boss who was murdered at a barbershop

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in a hotel of all places in 1957.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, when you're a killer and you're looking, you know, a barbershop might be somewhere

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: where a person frequents, they're kind of vulnerable if they're sort of sitting in a

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: chair, kind of being taken care of.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it sounds like it was certainly targeted.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just, again, I feel horrible for this young man's family.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting you mentioned the historical element there, because certainly from time

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to time when we've had to research old cases, we've gone to newspapers.com and there used

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to be a very different standard in idea about whether or not dead bodies should be published

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in the paper.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when we were looking at the, we did a series on the other Long Island serial

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: killer from the 50s.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I pull open this page of this newspaper from back in the 50s and there is a dead woman

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: sprawled across the page, one of the victims.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was just, I guess, normal back then.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, yikes.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We think maybe we've moved beyond that, but apparently we haven't because this is all

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: over social media.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We came right back to where we started from.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And how do you, I mean, like, we had to professionalize as the journalism industry had to

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: essentially professionalize over the course of the 20th century and adopt standards and

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: figure things out.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you ever get me talking about media, I have a lot of issues and feel it's a very

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: flawed institution, I suppose.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But I do appreciate that at least there are supposed to be standards and there are none

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: when it comes to social media posting at all.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We're back in the Wild West.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And also this goes beyond just social media because I have a question about why wasn't

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: this crime scene better secured?

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That a person was able to come in and do this.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That actually really raises an important question because if you have evidence circulating

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: online that a crime scene was breached in some way, or if somebody associated with the

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: crime scene who was supposed to be there acted in an improper way by filming it, not clear

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: what's going on here, but either one raises some possibilities that a defense attorney

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: can exploit down the road.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So are we ready to move on from Massachusetts to Las Vegas?

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a listener recommended case, and it's also a case we've covered in previous

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: iterations of the Cheat Sheet.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And it also gets into the question of journalism.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So on September 2nd, 2022, Jeff Gehrman, a Las Vegas Review Journal investigative reporter,

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: was brutally murdered in the lawn of his Las Vegas home.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And a local politician named Robert Telles was arrested for this and charged with his

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: murder.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And what came out was that this reporter had been really digging into some of his misconduct,

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: the fact that he really created a hostile work environment and whatnot.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So prosecutors felt that this was a revenge killing.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this was the subject of a trial very recently that just kind of recently wrapped

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: up.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And something really interesting happened at this trial.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So Telles was represented by attorney Robert Draskovich, and he really focused a lot of

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: his defense of his client on law enforcement mistakes and picking apart the state's case,

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: something you often see with defense attorneys where they're basically saying, you did this

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: wrong, you did that wrong, you did this wrong.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But then Telles, I guess, insisted that he should take the stand in his own defense.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And Kevin, speaking as an attorney, why is that a risk?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: What are the risks?

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What are the possible rewards?

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The possible reward is people tend to believe that they are so delightful and so charismatic

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that if they get up on the stand and just tell their story in their own words, the

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: jury will fall in love with them and everything will be better.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And they would be acquitted.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And that almost never happens because most people are not quite that charming.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not like you, because obviously when you got up on the stand and you're a serial

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: theft case, you were able to beat the charges with your silver tongue.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Most people are not as charismatic as Anya.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And you have to keep in mind that when you go on the stand, you will be facing not just

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: your friend, your defense attorney, you will be facing the prosecutor who is a very educated

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: man or woman who has spent a lot of time studying you, studying your case.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to do everything they possibly can to make you look bad.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're good at that.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And the odds are they will succeed and you will end up damaging your case.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to clarify, I was saying no to I'm not charismatic, not no, no one's as

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: charismatic as me.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If I didn't say anything, I would be haunted by that.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So well, I think what you make of it, I'm going to shout out this prosecutor in this

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: case.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He did an excellent job, but I don't think that he needed to work that hard with TELUS.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just go over some things.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So the murder, the attack, all there was surveillance footage for this.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: A car and a vehicle identical to TELUS's car was at the scene.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: He had on his phone numerous photos of Gehrman and his house and his car.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And the cameras essentially follow the victim going from a local taco shop back to his house.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And then a man in a big straw hat and a bright orange jacket, who prosecutors say was TELUS,

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: following him and then attacking him.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And oh, let me just also mention that this guy TELUS's DNA was found beneath Gehrman's

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: fingernails.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, so like, let's just consider the implications of that for a minute.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So after, so to be clear, I should have mentioned this up top, but my sources for this are KTNV

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: 8 News Now and Law and Crime.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And afterwards, jurors told the news that they actually were pretty impressed with Draskovic.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: They thought he did a good job when TELUS took the stand for a lot of them.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the beginning of the end because he rolled out this insane, wild conspiracy

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: theory where he was the victim of this whole intricate plot involving real estate agents

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and local politicians.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And the police planted his DNA beneath the victim's fingernails.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to have a, I mean, maybe a laugh is the wrong word, but if you want to just

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_01]: grimace and shake your head and discuss, I'm going to include a YouTube link to Law and Crime.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a video of Clark County Chief Deputy District Attorney Chris Hamner

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: interrogating, going on, you know, doing his cross-examination of TELUS.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It is the most cringe-worthy stuff he's like.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't deny that your DNA was under his fingernails.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, well, I do.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, how is that?

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know when it was put there, you know, and he just come.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: The defendant just came across so poorly.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, ugh.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of the jurors said that that was a moment where they felt he must be guilty

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and his conspiracy made no sense.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then that just sort of made them focus back on the evidence.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They ultimately convicted him and have recommended life without parole,

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and his sentencing will take place on October 16th.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just tell you something, Kevin, though, that I found terrifying.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So they said one of the juror foreman in his interview with the different news outlets said

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that had TELUS not testified, he could have seen it turning into a hung jury.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Even though the DNA of this perpetrator was beneath the victim's fingernails.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is what we're talking about when we're talking about jurors who sort of don't want to

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: do anything or vote to convict unless they're, you know, essentially handed an affidavit from

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the killer saying, no, I definitely did it.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Also, here's me on tape confessing to it.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And here's me on tape doing it.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Which never is not going to happen.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that this was such an ironclad case and the juror foreman essentially said there

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: were holdouts who were so taken with this man's conspiracy theory, or maybe like that,

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe they didn't quite find it good enough, so they didn't go for it.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That just scares me because it's like, what do you need to do here?

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's obviously incredibly guilty.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He shouldn't need to be the most off-putting man in the world on the stand for that to be

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty obvious to people.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But we know from many cases that we cover that the allure of conspiracy theories is

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a real thing.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And people seem to be very wrapped up in that and, you know, often to the exclusion of actual

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: facts and evidence.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's troubling.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what do you think?

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I being too hard?

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, you got to watch this thing with Hamner, though.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: He was just like, he's like trying not to.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's that bad.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: The prosecutor is like trying not to laugh going back and forth with this guy because

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: everything he's saying is so ridiculous.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's absurd.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's pretty bad.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it also just shows you the arrogance of someone like Tellus getting up there.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he had a perfectly good attorney doing his best, impressing the jury despite the

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: evidence against him.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, that means he's got to take over and have his big moment to shine and

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: show everyone, you know, his big boy thoughts and all the conspiracies that he's uncovered.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And everyone's just like, get the heck out of here.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: What is big boy thoughts?

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He looks he's just he comes across like so poorly.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually like it's I'm shocked that I'm sure the defense attorney did not want

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: him getting up there.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, defense attorneys almost never want their clients to testify because it's a bad

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: idea.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a bad idea.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Generally speaking.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that like but ultimately, to be clear, ultimately, it is the client's choice.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if they really want to do it, they need to be allowed to do it even if the defense

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: attorney is like no.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The attorney is a representative of the client.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: He does the client's bidding.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you had someone helping you with real estate, you've had a real estate agent

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and the real estate agent said, oh, this home is falling apart.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't buy this house.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But you say, I want to buy this house anyway.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make an offer for $10 million.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The real estate agent, even if he gives you his advice, don't do this.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He would be obligated to make the offer.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if the client really, really insists on speaking, I mean, that's frankly his

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: constitutional right.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why it happens.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not an indictment of the defense attorney, who I imagine was super not thrilled

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: about that.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, the jury ultimately made the right call on this and I give them credit

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: for that.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I give people on the jury credit for being open, open to looking into it.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like other members of the jury were able to show them, hey, look, there's

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: no evidence that this guy's political enemies and the police and the real estate agents

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: all conspired together in order to kill this reporter just so they could frame Tellus.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more likely that this guy Tellus and the evidence shows that this guy Tellus attacked

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: this man out of revenge and killed him.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what you got to go with.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You got to go with the evidence.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't just go with vibes.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So do you want to go to a different Clark County?

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That was Clark County in Nevada.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Now we're going to Clark County, Indiana.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: This is another listener request.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Our source is the Indiana Capital Chronicle.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And this, like the other Clark County, is a corruption case, although thankfully no murders.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought this was so fascinating because we often hear about Carroll County, Indiana.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of conspiracy theorists who follow Delphi insist it's the most corrupt place on Earth

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and blah, blah, blah.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's nonsense.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, every time we've tried to investigate claims around corruption there, it's just

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: a bunch of speculation and silly stuff.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So whatever.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean that corruption doesn't happen.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a case of corruption that I thought was worth talking about because it's so wild.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about former Clark County Sheriff Jamie Clark.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And he, no, I'm sorry, Jamie Noel.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote down Clark.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, there's no way that-

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Clark on the mind.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Too many Clarks.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's Jamie Noel.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And this guy is not just a former county sheriff.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He was actually really powerful in our state's Republican Party.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So to give you some background about Indiana, Indiana is a state with a Republican super

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: majority in the Indiana General Assembly.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: That means the Republican Party in this assembly can pass legislation almost without any opposition.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is both in our House and Senate.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've had the super majority in this state for 12 years.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not just to say he's an influential figure within one party versus the other.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like this is essentially a one-party state in most areas and certainly at the state

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: level.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And here's how powerful Noel was.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He led current Governor Eric Holcomb's 2016 campaign.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He was close enough with United States Vice President Mike Pence, who's another former

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Indiana governor, to get a personal invitation to Donald Trump's 2016 inauguration.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He's connected.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I should mention Mike Pence is from my hometown of Columbus, Indiana.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, another Columbus man.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But the thing about Noel is that he's had quite a downfall lately.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So he was stealing a ton of money from the public.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Indiana State Police, and this is our source for this one, is WHAS 11.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They found that Noel was constantly abusing the Utica Township Volunteer Firefighters

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Association credit cards and stealing thousands, maybe up to the millions.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: He's since been charged with theft, tax evasion, corrupt business practices, and money laundering,

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: as have one of his daughters, Casey, and his wife, Misty Noel.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to give you a sense, in one instance over, I think between like 2019 and 2023,

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: he spent nearly $10,000 at St. Elmo's Steakhouse.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot of spicy shrimp.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I was thinking I could see you doing that, but just with Captain D's.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a murder shoot scandal coming down the pike.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: In all seriousness, though, Noel pleaded guilty to 27 felony charges.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd been originally charged with 31.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a deal in the works and he could face over a decade in prison.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Indiana State Police Lieutenant Jeffrey Herron is in charge of this case.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So that is, State Police have the lead on this.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking again, millions of dollars in personal purchases.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They also weren't disclosing their income for like five years.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in one instance, he had an affair with a former Clark County Councilwoman, Brittany

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Ferry, and then was secretly paying her child support to the tune of $100,000.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's he was like trading cars and like selling them under the I mean, it's just a mess.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a it's a disaster.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that he was allowed to get away with this for so many years should tell you that,

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like, for all for as important as national politics are, oftentimes it's the stuff

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: happening in your own backyard that may have the most impact on you and your community

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and might be the most flagrant in some cases.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what real corruption looks like.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There's all these conspiracy theories about corruption in other places.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: This is what real corruption is.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is what real corruption looks like.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And as for the statewide implications, you know, Republican Governor Eric Holcomb is

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: nearing the end of his term.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And he told the Indiana Capital Chronicle that he's not going to make the decision on

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: whether to pardon this man that he once described as a friend.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to leave that to his successor because that's how pardons work.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to get an actual sentence.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, he's out the door.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The likely next governor will be Republican Mike Braun.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess he's he's leaving it to him to decide what to do with this guy.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Passing on that hot potato.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: If they give him a pardon, then that's just ridiculous.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this guy was caught dead to rights and he's pleading guilty.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's really no reason to pardon this man.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: No reason to pardon him.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not a situation where he's like stealing money to fund the Children's Hospital.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He's stealing it to go to friggin St. Elmo's, which is a wonderful restaurant here in Indianapolis.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But you shouldn't be stealing money to go there.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But in fairness, $10,000 at St. Elmo's, that's like one appetizer.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very good place.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very, very expensive.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you ever go there for I mean, everyone, everyone in Indiana is like,

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, we know about St. Elmo's.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Shut up.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But like for the people who might be visiting Indiana, it's really nice.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It is very expensive, but it's a very nice ambiance.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And their signature dish in a way is like this shrimp cocktail with this like really

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: spicy cocktail sauce.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm kind of a wimp when it comes to spicy foods, but I really like it.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a cleansing kind of pain.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't make it sound good by saying that, but it's good.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really good.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: If you've ever had like a good cry and then you feel like better afterwards, it's like that.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's see if there are things you can do a better job selling.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're talking.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my little transition, but I'll give another transition too.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're talking about like corrupt places.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking perhaps the least corrupt place in this great nation of ours,

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Kendallville, Indiana.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you're just making people ask questions about Kendallville.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a wonderful place.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: No corruption whatsoever.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, don't say that.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What if they have like a scandal after we go there?

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm talking about to date.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Kendallville is just a wonderful place.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like heaven on earth.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And people always say, what can I do in Kendallville?

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's at least one thing that I know that you can do that would be a lot of fun.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What is that Anya?

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, on September 14th, we will be in Kendallville.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Of what year?

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Of this year.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You gotta give the people all the information.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Because like, what if someone listened to this next year and they go up to Kendallville

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: on September 14th, 2025, they'd be heartbroken.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Where are they?

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what they'd be asking.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_01]: No, this is really, we're actually super excited about this.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: This is going to be our first ever live podcast recording.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So the information is-

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We've done live events.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't done a live podcast recording.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's correct.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is going to be on September 14th of this year at 7pm until 8pm.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And the doors open 6pm.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be at the Strauss Theater for Performing Arts in Kendallville.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Tickets are $10.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be, I believe, a Q&A session at the end.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be-

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And the tickets support Kendallville.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to go to us, this money.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to take this money and go down to St. Elmo's.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to steal their credit cards and go to St. Elmo's.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds a little defensive, though, doesn't it?

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't do anything wrong at St. Elmo's.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But we might, while we're up there, go to Gropp's.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Fish of Strife.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_01]: This freaking thing again.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: See, this is why I joked that you were stealing public funds to go to Captain D's.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that is something, if you got any iota of power, that could happen.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I would be having to stop you.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing funnier than accusing me of a serious crime.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I digress.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think in this episode, we're going to talk about a local Kendallville crime or two

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and then take questions.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you come, you can ask questions.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And just come and hang out with us.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it'll be fun.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the car salesmen always say, what can we do to put you in this car?

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So what can we do to put a ticket to Kendallville in these people's pockets?

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one thing I will note is if you haven't gotten your-

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, I'm going to save that.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to save that.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be a transition.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Just hold that thought for a second.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to why you should actually go, there's going to be-

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a nice evening.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you come up and drive, do a little road trip, it'll be fun.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You can talk to us.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be there.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And it'll be like a chance to hang out.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never done this before, so I'm sure we'll be insanely nervous.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's going to be really fun.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's going to be beer and wine there.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't drink beer and wine, but obviously it doesn't bother us.

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can come and make a little evening of it.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Make a little night of it.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're really excited to see everyone there.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to everyone who has bought tickets, but-

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: What about a little contest?

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: What if someone comes up to you, Anya, and says the secret word?

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00]: What would they win?

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just weird.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they would win your respect.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They would win a nod from me.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well done, sir or ma'am.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a little contest.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If you come and we're bringing note cards with us, you can write down a case

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe we'll cover it later.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that really that much of a prize?

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They could just email us.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Play along!

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, fine.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's- wow.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Give us a note card.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You could win the opportunity to hand us a piece of paper.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then we would draw it and no matter what it is, we could do that case.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: No matter what.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_01]: No matter what the consequences.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: If someone writes down a note card, Anya, serial theft, that's an entire episode.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh god, don't do that to me, folks.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't do it.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So it would be a lot of fun.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We'd have to make up something for our show.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm innocent.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I was, as we discussed earlier, I was acquitted.

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I did an amazing job on the stand.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, people were laughing and then they found themselves wiping away a tear.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm awaiting my full pardon on all the other charges from the governor.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Although I think he's gonna pass it off to Braun now, so I don't know.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: One other thing that's a perk that's making a transition within a transition

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: is that we are going to be bringing our shirts, our murder sheet people shirts

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: to the event.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Also be bringing the shirts that we'll actually be wearing.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we will also be wearing shirts, presumably.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a selling point.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless I choose to wear a dress.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And we will be selling the shirts and there'll be no shipping costs.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can come and buy them.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They're $30.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_01]: They look really neat.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I will continue with this ad because it's my turn to do it.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We have...

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: They look really neat?

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: They look neat.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you give me more details?

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: They're T-shirts...

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Paint a visual picture.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They're T-shirts with our logo on them and they say murder sheet people on them.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're very beautiful.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And the colors came out wonderfully.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, T-shirt printing is a little more complicating than you think.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of issues like colors and whatnot.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And our printer did such a wonderful job.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: These colors pop.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The shirts look amazing.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Anya, I, as you've often noted, I eat my fish sandwiches.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I make a huge mess.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: They get all over my shirt.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it safe to wash these shirts?

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, our understanding from talking with people who have them and who've washed them,

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: they are true to size and they are safe to wash.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're just very durable but very nice looking.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And they just...

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They scream.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people say they look neat.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They look neat and they tell everyone that you have really interesting taste in true crime.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And that, you know, you just are really smart and a great person because you listen to us.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We got a comment from some anonymous person saying they were dope.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Was that Tanya Bain who said that?

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That's Anya's secret identity.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They look great and they, you know, just will be a great conversation starter for you.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why I'm like looking at you intently when I said that.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But no, they don't have to be.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, sometimes...

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You can wear them and say nothing.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you told me, Kevin, if you wear this shirt, people are going to buttonhole

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you and demand you give explanations.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I don't buy the shirt.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I hesitated when you said it was a conversation starter.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, well, you could just like cast your eyes downwards and skulk out of the room if you're

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: wearing them.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You can do whatever you want.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You have the freedom with this shirt to do whatever you want.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: The same freedom with this shirt you'd enjoy with any garment.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to get...

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't get it.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't get confused here, folks.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00]: This is again a highly flawed ad.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it went pretty well.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Comparatively?

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, there's a key element I think you've left out.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Where do people get these shirts?

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The link.

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's at murdersheetshop.com.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Come there.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You can buy different sizes.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We have different 2XL.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We have extra large, large.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We have medium and small.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I've just listed them all.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And these are our products.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we just we appreciate everyone buys them.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It really helps us out.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we just hope you like them.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like a lot of you do.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really happy to hear that.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds like everyone.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Every single person loves them.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Who has bought it has been delighted.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we've not heard any complaints.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Not heard any complaints.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And those better not start now.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we really...

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It means a lot and I think they do look cool.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a fun little...

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they look neat.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And neat.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you were like roasting me about dope.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, neat.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was trying to think of some other words,

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_01]: some little adjectives.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They look keen.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They're the cat's pajamas.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, save them for your ad, sir, next week.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, listen, is there anything else that we wanted to advertise for?

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Did we talk about what a great time we're going to have in Kindleville?

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk to the people, take their case suggestions.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: If they say the secret world, you will respect them.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_00]: What is the word?

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01]: What is the word, sir?

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a secret.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But if they say it, if they come up to you and they say it, you will respect them.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't make any sense.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not giving these people anything to work with.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_01]: What are they going to do?

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you should come up with some of your elaborate contest schemes.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There's all sorts of clues.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So the implication there is that I've come up with an elaborate contest scheme before,

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever that means.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I wanted your respect.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I said the secret word.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So I have to get married to everyone?

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, just respect.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Respect is just the first step on the journey.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you telling me when I said something and you said, Kevin, that's the secret word now

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I respect you, you were just making that up?

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, pulse collar nervously.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a secret word.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're telling me you never watch Groucho Marx?

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You bet your life.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I haven't.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You're a very ancient man.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you for listening.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sorry.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Very sorry.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

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