The Cheat Sheet: Canes and Chloroform

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[00:01:46] Content Warning.

[00:01:48] This episode includes discussion of murder.

[00:01:51] Today on The Cheat Sheet we're going to be talking about five different cases

[00:01:56] from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, New York, and Kentucky.

[00:02:00] These are going to range from a recent cold case solve in Florida

[00:02:05] to an even more recent killing in upstate New York.

[00:02:11] And we're going to get all into that now.

[00:02:14] My name is Anya Cain.

[00:02:16] I'm a journalist.

[00:02:17] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:02:18] I'm an attorney.

[00:02:19] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:21] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:02:25] interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:28] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:30] And this is The Cheat Sheet.

[00:02:32] Canes and Chloroform.

[00:03:21] Pennsylvania.

[00:03:23] Our sources for this were NBC Philadelphia and also 6ABC.

[00:03:28] From those sources, I'm sure you figured out this is a case that happened near the

[00:03:33] Philadelphia area, actually in a suburb of Philadelphia in Montgomery County.

[00:03:39] It involves a woman named Renee DePatria.

[00:03:42] This is a 70-year-old woman who was convicted of third degree murder.

[00:03:50] And so that raises an obvious question is, what is third degree murder?

[00:03:55] Yeah. I'd be very curious.

[00:03:56] You hear about second degree and first degree.

[00:03:58] You don't really hear as often about third degree.

[00:04:01] And there's a reason for that.

[00:04:03] One is that in the United States, what do you want to just guess?

[00:04:07] How many states do you think even have third degree murder on the book?

[00:04:10] I'll go with a number that is associated with this and say three because it's third.

[00:04:16] Absolutely correct.

[00:04:17] Oh, man.

[00:04:19] Anya Cain, brilliant is always three states.

[00:04:23] Pennsylvania.

[00:04:25] Minnesota and Florida.

[00:04:27] Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:04:28] So not too common.

[00:04:30] And basically a third degree murder is when you kill someone

[00:04:37] and you don't necessarily have the intent to do it

[00:04:40] and it doesn't take place during the commission of a felony.

[00:04:44] Okay. What about manslaughter?

[00:04:48] Different states call things different names.

[00:04:52] All right. So yeah, definitionally.

[00:04:54] So maybe another state, some of these things could be considered manslaughter.

[00:04:57] Okay. That makes sense.

[00:04:58] We all have different laws in the United States.

[00:05:01] It's not uniform but sometimes things can function similarly.

[00:05:06] So Miss D. Patriot, this is a 70 year old woman.

[00:05:12] She somehow hears from her son that her son is having

[00:05:17] some sort of a situation at a bar where he's gotten into a confrontation with someone

[00:05:25] where punches of some kind were thrown.

[00:05:29] Okay, so like a bar fight?

[00:05:30] Yeah. And basically, mom come help.

[00:05:35] So this man's mother, the 70 year old woman, comes to the bar to get her son

[00:05:43] and she comes prepared.

[00:05:46] She comes with a 16 inch knife, which is hidden in her cane.

[00:05:55] Geez.

[00:05:57] So that sounds to me almost like something out of a spy movie or something.

[00:06:04] Yeah, it sounds like one of those things that just seems inherently unrealistic.

[00:06:09] So she gathers her son.

[00:06:14] Her son is preparing to get into the car where she and her husband are

[00:06:22] and somebody confronts her son.

[00:06:24] And so she goes out and she stabs the person confronting her son with this 16 inch knife.

[00:06:32] The guy falls to the ground.

[00:06:35] She apparently stabs him again.

[00:06:37] Oh my goodness.

[00:06:39] She doesn't show any remorse for this crime.

[00:06:43] And she is charged and convicted with third degree murder, as mentioned.

[00:06:49] And the prosecution just asked for a standard sentence of about 20 years,

[00:06:55] but she is sentenced by the judge to the absolute maximum sentence of 22, 40 years,

[00:07:03] presumably because she did not show the least bit of remorse.

[00:07:07] I think that's totally justified.

[00:07:09] I think sometimes society throughout history has had the tendency to

[00:07:15] sort of like look at female perpetrators differently than male perpetrators.

[00:07:21] And there's often been kind of like, oh, well, they're just a lady or whatever.

[00:07:24] And I think if it doesn't matter who you are or how old you are necessarily,

[00:07:30] unless we're talking about very young perpetrators, obviously,

[00:07:34] if you're doing something as brutal as this and then not showing any remorse,

[00:07:38] it also doesn't even sound like her son was actively in danger during this confrontation.

[00:07:44] It's not like someone was approaching him with a gun or something.

[00:07:47] And I should mention the name of the victim.

[00:07:49] The name of the victim is Michael Sides.

[00:07:51] Okay.

[00:07:53] Yeah.

[00:07:53] I mean, that's...

[00:07:57] She did not try to help him afterwards, did not call 911.

[00:08:04] The prosecutor in the case, this is an upsetting quote.

[00:08:09] Afterwards when he was lying on the ground gasping for air, bleeding out,

[00:08:14] she stood over him posturing and took another swing at him.

[00:08:18] Geez.

[00:08:19] I think most of us can understand the impulse of a parent to try to help their child

[00:08:23] and defend their child.

[00:08:24] And so to me, getting involved there, maybe we can understand that,

[00:08:30] but it escalates to a point where it's not really as understandable anymore.

[00:08:37] Why bring a 16-inch knife?

[00:08:39] Why even have this 16-inch?

[00:08:42] Well, I mean, if you're an older lady, maybe you want to protect yourself,

[00:08:45] but it should be used for protection, not like basically gutting people in bar fights.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:51] There's always an interesting line to be drawn between

[00:08:55] where does self-defense and murder begin?

[00:08:59] If you are not actively in danger, I don't think you can claim self-defense.

[00:09:06] Also, I think if you've made no efforts to secure help

[00:09:11] or deal with the situation otherwise, you can't...

[00:09:16] And actually that kind of does touch upon a case

[00:09:19] we're going to be talking about in a moment.

[00:09:20] But first, anything else for this one?

[00:09:22] Well, again, the fact that the judge on his own

[00:09:26] chose to give out the harshest possible sentence,

[00:09:29] I think tells you at least the judge doesn't see any ambiguity

[00:09:33] in here about where self-defense ends and murder begins.

[00:09:37] And for a 70-year-old woman getting a sentence like this,

[00:09:40] let's be blunt, she is not going to have another free day in her life.

[00:09:44] She's going to die in a cell.

[00:09:45] Right. Definitely.

[00:09:48] So speaking of sort of dubious self-defense claims from an elderly perpetrator,

[00:09:56] we got one recommendation from one of our awesome listeners

[00:10:00] about a case that is just incredibly depressing from Ohio.

[00:10:04] This happened in South Charleston, Ohio.

[00:10:10] And it involves... It's gotten a lot of media coverage.

[00:10:14] My sources were CNN, CBS, WBNS 10 TV, The Galleon Inquirer, and the Midland Daily News.

[00:10:24] This is an incident that occurred on March 25th, 2024.

[00:10:28] An 81-year-old man named William Brock got some calls and they were disturbing.

[00:10:33] A man, a male caller was telling him his nephew was in jail

[00:10:36] and that he needed to wire over money for bond.

[00:10:39] And Brock said no.

[00:10:42] And then the male caller started threatening him and his family.

[00:10:46] So there's some sort of extortion scam going on.

[00:10:49] We're going to talk about this in a minute,

[00:10:50] but these are becoming increasingly pervasive

[00:10:53] and they often target elderly individuals.

[00:10:57] Maybe you even know someone who's gone through this.

[00:10:59] Unfortunately, most of them have bad endings,

[00:11:02] but most of them don't have quite as bad an ending as this one.

[00:11:05] So meanwhile, a 61-year-old woman named Lolitha Hall, who is an Uber driver,

[00:11:11] she had an account request that she pick up a package from Brock's house.

[00:11:16] So Ms. Hall was known as Letha by her family and friends.

[00:11:21] She grew up in Columbus, although she moved to North Carolina for a time

[00:11:26] and then back to Columbus relatively recently.

[00:11:29] She was a tax professional before she retired at the Regional Income Tax Agency.

[00:11:36] She worked at a variety of places.

[00:11:38] When she retired, she began to drive for Uber.

[00:11:40] But you can even see in a 2005 copy of the Galeon Inquirer

[00:11:47] that she was helping elderly people with tax stuff.

[00:11:51] She just seems to be a very beloved person by her family.

[00:11:55] She was a devout member of the Faith Ministries Church,

[00:11:58] a frequent volunteer, went to Ohio State University,

[00:12:02] was a mother close with her family and an avid gardener.

[00:12:08] She just sounds like a lovely person.

[00:12:12] She was very likely not at all aware of this scam.

[00:12:17] Police say that they don't believe she was part of the scam.

[00:12:20] They don't believe she knew anything.

[00:12:22] She was just an Uber driver responding to a request doing her job.

[00:12:29] She shows up at Mr. Brock's house and Dash Cam shows what happens next.

[00:12:37] So I'll describe it.

[00:12:38] It's a disturbing watch.

[00:12:40] I did include a link in our show notes, but just be aware.

[00:12:43] We're watching the last moments of somebody's life

[00:12:46] and it's very upsetting to me.

[00:12:50] Miss Hall apparently arrives and simply asks Mr. Brock about the package.

[00:12:55] We see her exit her car on the Dash Cam.

[00:13:00] We can see the backdrop of a white garage door,

[00:13:03] a reindeer decoration in front of it.

[00:13:05] And then an African American woman in a blue fleece jeans,

[00:13:09] she's holding a white pair of glasses in her phone.

[00:13:11] She gets out and slowly kind of like limps a little bit

[00:13:14] around the hood of the car toward the house.

[00:13:18] Then suddenly we see her backing up very quickly

[00:13:21] and she's followed this time by an elderly white man, Mr. Brock.

[00:13:25] He's also slightly hunched.

[00:13:26] He's mostly bald and he's wearing a purple plaid shirt.

[00:13:30] She's retreating.

[00:13:32] Her body language is very much like not escalating,

[00:13:36] kind of just like get me out of here.

[00:13:40] And he is being very aggressive.

[00:13:42] He is following her.

[00:13:43] He is pointing the gun right at her.

[00:13:45] He is getting in her space, getting closer and closer to her.

[00:13:48] Her expression is just terrified and completely confused.

[00:13:52] So they disappear out of range of the Dash Cam.

[00:13:55] The car shakes.

[00:13:57] And what police say happened is that he was trying to hold her at gunpoint.

[00:14:01] She tried to get into her car to just get out of there

[00:14:03] and he shot her multiple times.

[00:14:06] She died at the hospital.

[00:14:07] He called 911 and basically said I was in fear for my life.

[00:14:11] But when police reviewed things, they saw that she

[00:14:15] was not posing any sort of threat to him.

[00:14:17] So he was arrested and he's being held on a $200,000 bond.

[00:14:22] And yeah, I mean, this is just horrifying because

[00:14:28] Mr. Brock may have been a victim of this scam,

[00:14:31] but that certainly doesn't justify going around

[00:14:33] and shooting people who are not posing a threat to you.

[00:14:36] So it kind of goes back to that.

[00:14:38] What is self-defense?

[00:14:39] I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:14:43] Yeah, it goes to what is self-defense.

[00:14:45] And even if you believe you are in danger,

[00:14:50] if you're not actually in danger,

[00:14:52] that doesn't give you a license to use deadly force.

[00:14:56] He has a house there.

[00:14:59] I mean, he could just stay in the house,

[00:15:00] take photos of her, take photos of the car.

[00:15:03] If he believes that she's part of the same group,

[00:15:05] that she's part of the scam,

[00:15:06] which it sounds like she definitely was

[00:15:08] and she was a victim of this too.

[00:15:10] But if you're that concerned,

[00:15:11] there are half measures that you can take to document this

[00:15:16] where you're not going out and it's not the Wild West.

[00:15:21] You can't just go shoot somebody

[00:15:23] that you think you might have a grievance with.

[00:15:26] And CNN reported that Uber has banned the account

[00:15:29] that asked her to pick up the package.

[00:15:30] I hope that law enforcement is also investigating the scammer

[00:15:33] and that they're putting together a case against these people

[00:15:36] because again, these scams are life-ruining.

[00:15:40] And in this case, the result of this scam

[00:15:43] led to a woman being murdered.

[00:15:46] Yeah, I'm struck by how when you commit a criminal act,

[00:15:52] sometimes the things that ripple out from that act

[00:15:56] are things you don't expect.

[00:15:58] Certainly, I would imagine

[00:16:00] the person who perpetrated this scam

[00:16:02] did not intend for it to end with an elderly man

[00:16:06] killing an innocent woman, but that's what happened.

[00:16:09] And so yeah, it's just a tragedy.

[00:16:13] Yeah, and again, Mr. Brock is culpable as far as I'm concerned.

[00:16:16] My sympathy is with him as far as being the victim of a scam

[00:16:19] because no one should have to go through that

[00:16:21] and it's awful that elderly people are targeted in this way.

[00:16:24] But my sympathy ends the moment

[00:16:26] that you decide to take another person's life,

[00:16:29] and specifically the life of an older woman

[00:16:31] who was not posing a threat,

[00:16:33] who had no idea what was going on

[00:16:35] and who you don't pull a gun on someone.

[00:16:38] You don't shoot somebody

[00:16:40] unless they're trying to harm you and attack you.

[00:16:44] This was not a situation

[00:16:45] where she was trying to break into his house to get a package.

[00:16:47] She was just doing her job.

[00:16:48] She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[00:16:53] People need to understand that your personal fear and anger

[00:16:57] does not justify cold blood and murder.

[00:16:59] That's not what self-defense is.

[00:17:02] You have to be actively in danger.

[00:17:05] And I will say just a couple of...

[00:17:08] The Midland Daily News had a great article

[00:17:12] that I'm going to include in our show notes.

[00:17:14] It's just about how we can all protect

[00:17:16] the elderly people in our lives,

[00:17:18] because this is something a lot of us might face

[00:17:20] with our elderly relatives,

[00:17:22] about how to deal with the scammers

[00:17:24] because they can be sophisticated

[00:17:26] and they really do target the elderly.

[00:17:28] And it's often this kind of ransom thing

[00:17:30] where it's like we have your nephew

[00:17:31] or we have your son

[00:17:32] or your son is in jail, send us this

[00:17:34] or you're going to owe money to the IRS

[00:17:37] if you don't pay this right now.

[00:17:39] So first of all, awareness.

[00:17:40] Talk to people in your life who might be a target

[00:17:43] about you should never give over

[00:17:45] your financial information on the phone.

[00:17:47] You should never assume that this person on the phone

[00:17:51] is telling you the truth

[00:17:52] about some sort of ransom situation.

[00:17:55] You need to not necessarily just accept that.

[00:17:59] But then again, people can have memory issues,

[00:18:01] people can have other issues going on.

[00:18:03] So Midland Daily News, one great tip

[00:18:05] that I thought was awesome was

[00:18:07] if you can take their cell phone

[00:18:10] and silence all unknown callers

[00:18:12] and then just be diligent about adding things

[00:18:14] like the doctor's numbers

[00:18:17] or various people in their lives

[00:18:19] that should be calling them.

[00:18:21] That's a great way

[00:18:22] because if the scammers can't reach

[00:18:24] the target, then they can't necessarily

[00:18:27] harm them directly.

[00:18:28] And a similar thing can be done for landlines.

[00:18:33] But I would just encourage people

[00:18:34] to have those conversations

[00:18:36] because I think awareness.

[00:18:37] When you're in a situation

[00:18:38] and you're being told something scary,

[00:18:40] then you might take it too seriously.

[00:18:42] So conversations

[00:18:43] and then maybe some proactive stuff with numbers

[00:18:45] and changing phone settings

[00:18:48] so more spam is caught.

[00:18:50] Great advice.

[00:18:51] But again, none of that excuses

[00:18:53] what happened to Miss Hall

[00:18:54] and my heart goes out to her family

[00:18:56] because she just sounds like a really special person.

[00:19:00] What's more fun than living out your own cozy mystery?

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[00:19:26] You play as June Parker,

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[00:19:54] I'm sure you'll find it fun too.

[00:19:54] Discover your inner detective

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[00:20:27] Paid for by the California Department of Health Care Services.

[00:20:31] Hey, I'm Jamie.

[00:20:32] And I'm Justyna.

[00:20:33] And we're the hosts of Just So You Know,

[00:20:34] a podcast where we get to the bottom of suspicious stories

[00:20:37] and outright lies we're being told

[00:20:39] by companies that profit off of animals.

[00:20:41] You think Elon Musk is shady?

[00:20:42] When do you hear our episode about his sinister brain experiments?

[00:20:46] First he ruined Twitter,

[00:20:47] now he's coming for your actual brain.

[00:20:49] No.

[00:20:50] We've also gotten one about that time

[00:20:51] I stormed the runway at New York Fashion Week

[00:20:53] to protest Coach's leather handbags.

[00:20:55] Yeah, I heard they weren't happy about that.

[00:20:56] I couldn't tell you.

[00:20:57] They're not talking to me at the moment.

[00:20:58] And we're just getting started.

[00:21:00] In the coming weeks,

[00:21:01] we're going to blow the lid off of everything

[00:21:03] from shady pet dealers

[00:21:04] to monkeys health hostage by coconut milk companies

[00:21:08] to the astonishing secret behind the

[00:21:10] no animals were harmed message you see at the end of movies.

[00:21:13] And so much more.

[00:21:14] We'll hope you join us for this surprisingly fun journey

[00:21:16] full of strange characters, secretive companies,

[00:21:19] and a whole world of stuff they really don't want you to know.

[00:21:22] Subscribe to Just So You Know wherever you get your podcasts

[00:21:24] and look for our new episodes every Thursday.

[00:21:27] Just So You Know is a PETA production.

[00:21:32] Now I'd like to go down to a case in Florida.

[00:21:35] Sources for this were NBC News and also TC Palm.

[00:21:39] And when I try to look for cases to discuss on cheat sheet,

[00:21:44] sometimes I have a bias.

[00:21:45] I always enjoy seeing cold cases that are solved decades later.

[00:21:49] And generally speaking, when we see those cases,

[00:21:52] they're caused, they're solved rather by DNA.

[00:21:55] You know, there's some DNA from the crime scene that was preserved

[00:21:58] and now we've identified a killer or perpetrator.

[00:22:02] But this is kind of more of an old-fashioned story

[00:22:04] because this is the story of a cold case from 1968

[00:22:07] that was just solved.

[00:22:10] DNA is not a part of it.

[00:22:12] It is more like old-fashioned police work

[00:22:15] by Indian River County Sheriff Eric Flowers and his team.

[00:22:21] And also there's a part that is played in there by the media.

[00:22:27] Love it when the press are heroes.

[00:22:29] So let's talk about it.

[00:22:30] This story is of a murder of a man, of a milkman named Hiram Graham.

[00:22:36] He was killed back in April of 1968.

[00:22:42] And if you know your history,

[00:22:45] I'm sure you might be aware that April of 1968

[00:22:49] would be right after the assassination

[00:22:52] of Martin Luther King Jr.

[00:22:55] A lot of racial tensions in the air at the time.

[00:23:01] This man is a milkman, as I mentioned.

[00:23:06] Two men apparently forced their way into his vehicle

[00:23:12] and made him drive off into the woods.

[00:23:16] And his body was found there not long afterwards.

[00:23:19] He's been murdered execution style.

[00:23:22] And these happen to be two men who are African-American.

[00:23:25] So this really inflames racial tensions at the time.

[00:23:28] The key witness, the key witness who saw these two men do this

[00:23:35] is a girl, a little girl who has been promised

[00:23:39] a birthday cake from the milkman.

[00:23:44] And she sees this and the milkman,

[00:23:47] apparently wanting to spare her,

[00:23:50] wanting to protect her, kind of shoes her away

[00:23:55] and says, I'll be back later.

[00:23:58] I just got to take these people somewhere.

[00:23:59] And that's really sad.

[00:24:01] Well, it's one of the last acts of this milkman's life

[00:24:06] is basically to protect someone else.

[00:24:10] So I think that's an act of heroism on his part.

[00:24:14] Absolutely.

[00:24:15] I should mention this man was also a World War II veteran.

[00:24:18] He was very decorated, right?

[00:24:19] Is my understanding.

[00:24:21] Yeah. So being a hero wasn't exactly a new thing for him.

[00:24:27] So the investigation happens.

[00:24:29] Police say, no, this isn't a racial thing.

[00:24:31] It's just a robbery.

[00:24:34] The crime doesn't get solved.

[00:24:37] There's talk that maybe the crime scene was compromised

[00:24:40] or mistakes made.

[00:24:42] Those of us who listen to a lot of true crime podcasts

[00:24:46] read about true crime.

[00:24:47] We hear these things all the time.

[00:24:51] And so the case kind of recedes into the background.

[00:24:56] And then back in, I believe it was 2006,

[00:25:05] the family of Mr. Graham gives some interviews about the case.

[00:25:10] The case gets a little burst of coverage.

[00:25:14] We've all seen stories like that.

[00:25:16] We've done stories like that on the podcast

[00:25:18] where we try to highlight old cases.

[00:25:20] And so the case gets a burst of coverage from the media.

[00:25:24] And so at this point, a man named,

[00:25:29] I want to make sure I get his name absolutely correct here.

[00:25:33] A man named Thomas Jefferson Williams

[00:25:35] writes to the media who is covering the case.

[00:25:38] He says, oh, you know this murder you're writing about?

[00:25:41] Well, they said I had something to do with it, but I didn't.

[00:25:43] So just put that out of your mind.

[00:25:46] So basically he's putting himself on the radar

[00:25:50] of police and media and investigators.

[00:25:53] By preemptively denying involvement in a crime

[00:25:57] no one had accused him of taking part in.

[00:26:03] And after that, not long afterwards, he does die.

[00:26:09] But it has since come out that prior to his death

[00:26:14] he had confessed to this murder to two separate people.

[00:26:20] And these two people who heard these confessions

[00:26:22] had no contact or connection to one another.

[00:26:27] The confessions contained all sorts of information

[00:26:32] that convinced the police it was true.

[00:26:35] And these people indicated they had held back

[00:26:37] from sharing the information previously

[00:26:40] because they were afraid of this man.

[00:26:42] And it was only the fact that he had died

[00:26:44] that gave them the courage to come forward.

[00:26:47] So on the basis of these two confessions,

[00:26:53] kind of his odd behavior in preemptively writing

[00:26:56] to the media and saying I had nothing to do with this.

[00:26:59] Their declaring the case solved

[00:27:02] and that he was the shooter.

[00:27:05] There was still the mystery of the other man

[00:27:09] and they do believe they have a lead on that.

[00:27:11] I hope that man's alive so if somebody gets freaking arrested.

[00:27:15] I hate when people sit on information like this

[00:27:18] until nothing can be done in order to apprehend a perpetrator.

[00:27:25] I understand being scared,

[00:27:26] but I think there's something incredibly selfish about that.

[00:27:29] I'm just happy that this family has answers.

[00:27:33] And I am also very happy that this sheriff,

[00:27:37] I won't keep sharing his name,

[00:27:39] Sheriff Eric Flowers is putting resources

[00:27:43] into looking at these old cases and doing these interviews.

[00:27:47] Yeah, bravo to him because listen,

[00:27:50] it's hard to work on any cold case,

[00:27:53] but it's especially hard when there's no DNA component

[00:27:56] that can just point you towards someone.

[00:28:00] Much harder to do these kind of traditional investigations

[00:28:03] where you're just piecing everything together piece by piece.

[00:28:06] And I feel like oftentimes that prevents any work

[00:28:10] from being done on some of these cold cases.

[00:28:13] Yes, but it didn't stop this man from putting together a team.

[00:28:16] Again, this is Indian River County Sheriff Eric Flowers.

[00:28:21] Kudos to him.

[00:28:22] The hard work of the team he put together

[00:28:24] has given answers to a family which has solved them for decades.

[00:28:29] Can he come up here and work on Burger Chef please?

[00:28:32] I think that's the kind of police work that's necessary for Burger Chef

[00:28:37] in particular.

[00:28:38] That's a case we cover.

[00:28:39] That's a cold case and I don't think that there's going to be

[00:28:42] some sort of DNA calvary coming with that.

[00:28:44] I believe that it would be solved through

[00:28:47] talking to people, interviewing people,

[00:28:49] looking at the old case files.

[00:28:51] That's the way you have to do it.

[00:28:52] That's old fashioned police work.

[00:28:54] DNA is wonderful.

[00:28:55] It's an incredible tool that is bringing tons of people to justice.

[00:29:01] But it's not going to solve every case.

[00:29:04] This was a case that could not be solved by DNA,

[00:29:06] but it was solved by the team of Eric Flowers.

[00:29:09] So thank you to Eric Flowers and come to Indiana please.

[00:29:14] Well, that's a great case that you found, Kevin.

[00:29:18] That's an older case.

[00:29:19] I think the one we're going to talk about next is very recent

[00:29:22] and also deeply troubling.

[00:29:26] I have my sources for this.

[00:29:27] The Times Union newspaper had excellent coverage of this.

[00:29:31] I will link to an article, but also just check them out.

[00:29:34] They're a very good newspaper in general.

[00:29:36] And randomly, I also relied on a article from Anesthesia,

[00:29:43] a publication of the Association of Anesthetists.

[00:29:47] Also something from CBS 6 Albany.

[00:29:51] And perhaps some general knowledge you have from growing up

[00:29:54] in the same household as an anesthesiologist.

[00:29:57] Yeah, my dad is an anesthesiologist, so shout out to him.

[00:30:03] As soon as we started talking about this story,

[00:30:05] you started telling me some details about chloroform that I didn't know.

[00:30:09] Yeah, I mean, I've never been a scientifically minded person

[00:30:13] and certainly have no aptitude for anything

[00:30:17] that would kind of render me a good physician,

[00:30:20] but I certainly have picked up some things.

[00:30:23] I think the history of anesthesiology in particular

[00:30:25] is a very fascinating subject.

[00:30:28] When you think about it,

[00:30:30] until relatively recently in history,

[00:30:32] any sort of surgery was a disaster

[00:30:35] because you're having to knock people out using means that were not so safe.

[00:30:41] And also more than that, in some cases, not knocking them out at all.

[00:30:45] So anyways, this gets into something about anesthesia.

[00:30:52] So a 40-year-old man named Thomas Kreider of Ticonderoga, New York.

[00:30:57] This was a guy who was super passionate and interesting.

[00:31:00] Kevin, I think he's the kind of guy that we could get along with

[00:31:03] because he loved some of the things that we really love.

[00:31:06] So he was a huge Star Trek fan.

[00:31:09] He worked as a tour guide at a Star Trek sort of related business.

[00:31:15] You and I both enjoy that franchise very much.

[00:31:19] And this is more appropriate for your interest,

[00:31:22] but he was also an Elvis impersonator.

[00:31:24] So I know you...

[00:31:26] There have been periods in my life where I was a huge Elvis fan.

[00:31:28] Yeah, I don't think you currently are,

[00:31:30] but I think at times that would have...

[00:31:33] He's very into Elvis as well.

[00:31:35] He was a huge fan of different properties

[00:31:38] and He-Man and Chi-Ra came up.

[00:31:40] And friends and loved ones described him

[00:31:43] as just kind of a geeky, kind, lovable, and trusting man.

[00:31:47] One person he trusted was 69-year-old Ronald G. Reher,

[00:31:52] and this man was a retired chiropractor.

[00:31:54] They knew each other for a number of years.

[00:31:57] So around April 5th, 2024,

[00:32:01] Kreider left to pick up some free furniture

[00:32:04] in exchange for moving help.

[00:32:07] It's not super clear what exactly the arrangement was,

[00:32:09] but apparently Reher picked up Kreider.

[00:32:12] There was supposed to be some sort of exchange of property

[00:32:14] and police say that the two got together

[00:32:20] at Reher's Milton, New York home on April 5th, 2024.

[00:32:26] And they ended up having what police say

[00:32:30] was a consensual sexual encounter.

[00:32:33] So that involved Kreider being bound and restrained.

[00:32:38] And again, police say that this was not some sort of attack.

[00:32:42] This was consensual.

[00:32:45] And he was then dosed with chloroform multiple times,

[00:32:50] and apparently that was consensual too.

[00:32:53] And unfortunately, the situation had some pretty tragic results.

[00:32:56] But let's talk a little bit about chloroform first

[00:32:58] because it's one of those things I think a lot of us have heard of,

[00:33:01] but may not know a lot about.

[00:33:03] So chloroform, which is the popular name for trichloromethane,

[00:33:07] this is a compound.

[00:33:09] It can serve as a sedative, an anesthetic, refrigerant, a solvent.

[00:33:14] In the 19th century, it was widely used as an anesthetic during surgery.

[00:33:19] So it's supposed to basically render you insensible,

[00:33:23] knock you out, sedate you.

[00:33:26] So surgery can be performed.

[00:33:28] So surgery can be performed, exactly.

[00:33:30] So now you may have heard it not in the terms of medical history,

[00:33:35] but in fact, if you enjoy mystery or detective or crime novels,

[00:33:42] chloroform soaked rags are often used in fiction

[00:33:46] to produce basically instantaneous unconsciousness in crimes.

[00:33:50] So you press a chloroform soaked rag over someone's mouth,

[00:33:53] they inhale it, they pass out.

[00:33:56] Okay, that is a myth.

[00:33:58] That does not happen.

[00:33:59] That is not how it works.

[00:34:01] That's not how it works at all.

[00:34:02] And it's funny, this article for anesthesia by J.P. Payne,

[00:34:09] a professor of anesthesia,

[00:34:11] it gets into some of the history of this.

[00:34:13] And he wrote that as early as 1865,

[00:34:17] The Lancet, which is a medical journal,

[00:34:19] was arguing with people that chloroform was not a good way

[00:34:22] to knock out someone who doesn't want to be knocked out.

[00:34:24] Basically, you have to either be already immobilized

[00:34:28] or incapacitated by being drunk or consenting

[00:34:32] to really be rendered unconscious

[00:34:34] through the whole chloroform soaked rag held over the mouth trick.

[00:34:39] You basically have to just not be moving,

[00:34:41] because it takes like five minutes for that to work.

[00:34:44] And you can imagine that that is difficult

[00:34:47] to do that to somebody who doesn't want it done to them.

[00:34:50] And so this is again in The Criminal Use of Chloroform,

[00:34:53] an article by Professor J.P. Payne ran in 2002.

[00:34:58] He discusses a lot of the kind of crime fiction

[00:35:00] misconceptions about chloroform, so it's very interesting.

[00:35:03] Here's another thing that detective novels don't tell you.

[00:35:06] Chloroform is really dangerous.

[00:35:08] In a detective novel,

[00:35:10] you're not going to have the protagonist be killed

[00:35:11] by too much chloroform because that would be obviously

[00:35:15] kind of an abrupt and upsetting end.

[00:35:16] But chloroform is incredibly dangerous.

[00:35:20] In fact, healthy patients would sometimes die during surgery

[00:35:26] because they would receive too high of a dose of chloroform.

[00:35:29] And they tried to mitigate that.

[00:35:31] But ultimately, chloroform used to declined in the 20th century

[00:35:35] because it was just it's more dangerous than

[00:35:38] later types of anesthesia that developed.

[00:35:40] And see, this is what you told me the other day.

[00:35:42] I had no idea.

[00:35:43] And then while you're looking up

[00:35:45] all of these respectable academic sites,

[00:35:47] I look up Dan Savage, who is kind of a love and sex advice columnist.

[00:35:53] And he has an article called

[00:35:56] Don't Use Chloroform During Sex Because It'll Kill You.

[00:35:58] Yes. Well, he's right.

[00:35:59] And I read you one line he writes.

[00:36:02] He says, knocking someone out with chloroform

[00:36:04] is not as easy and quick as they made it look

[00:36:06] on Dukes of Hazard and Batman and the Hardy Boys

[00:36:09] and Charlie's Angels and Wonder Woman,

[00:36:11] all the other classic kink-inducing television programs.

[00:36:15] So it's very dangerous.

[00:36:17] It doesn't really work the way you think it's going to work.

[00:36:22] And if you do happen to have a fantasy

[00:36:25] where you think it would be fun to

[00:36:28] have someone be unconscious,

[00:36:30] maybe your partner can pretend to be unconscious.

[00:36:33] Yeah, it's really, really, really dangerous.

[00:36:36] And as I said, you would hear these cases in the 1800s

[00:36:40] of otherwise healthy patients dying

[00:36:42] because they just got too much chloroform.

[00:36:44] And that was, I mean, obviously 1800s doctors

[00:36:48] or I guess a bit of a different breed

[00:36:49] than modern day medical practitioners.

[00:36:52] But still, there's a reason that nurse anesthetists

[00:36:58] and anesthesiologists are specially trained

[00:37:02] to deal with this because it can be easy

[00:37:06] to kill somebody with anesthesia like this

[00:37:09] or to get the dose wrong.

[00:37:11] And you have to be very specially trained in that.

[00:37:14] And when you have people using it just more casually

[00:37:18] for sexual encounters because that's their kink,

[00:37:22] it becomes problematic because there's a lot of room for error

[00:37:27] and the margin of error could be fatal.

[00:37:29] And unfortunately, in this case, it was fatal for Mr. Kreider.

[00:37:34] He did not survive this encounter. He died.

[00:37:38] And then Mr. Reher instead of doing the right thing

[00:37:41] sort of compounded this awful situation.

[00:37:44] So instead of immediately calling for help,

[00:37:48] calling 911, explaining what happened,

[00:37:51] he for some reason hid Mr. Kreider's body in his basement,

[00:37:56] moved his stuff around and that left Mr. Kreider's family, friends

[00:38:04] to wonder what happened to him.

[00:38:05] He was reported missing earlier.

[00:38:07] His wife and friends tried to spread the word,

[00:38:09] figure out where he was, figure out what happened

[00:38:11] because he was supposed to come back.

[00:38:12] I mean, it wasn't like he was supposed to be gone for a long time.

[00:38:15] And I mean, that must have been horribly anguishing.

[00:38:18] And it seems like this guy was just a really beloved figure in his community,

[00:38:22] his various communities, the different fandoms and then this area of New York.

[00:38:26] And I mean, just you even see some of the news coverage

[00:38:30] and people are commenting below.

[00:38:33] He went by the stage name TJ Green

[00:38:38] and people are just commenting and like, what happened to TJ?

[00:38:40] This is awful.

[00:38:40] And it's just very sad because his death has really impacted

[00:38:44] a lot of people who cared about him.

[00:38:46] And a few days after the death,

[00:38:49] Rayer did go to the Saratoga County Sheriff's Office and did confess.

[00:38:53] So he said he had Kreider's body in his basement.

[00:38:56] So I'm glad that at least he came forward at that time,

[00:39:00] but I don't know what the delay was.

[00:39:01] At least he did that.

[00:39:02] Yeah.

[00:39:03] I would be very curious.

[00:39:06] My mind goes to strange places.

[00:39:08] I wonder what those two days were like for him having a dead body in his house,

[00:39:14] what was going through his mind, what things was he contemplating?

[00:39:19] It's always better to just come forward immediately

[00:39:22] if something like this happens and it's an accident.

[00:39:25] And listen, chloroform is a highly regulated substance.

[00:39:30] You're not just about to have it.

[00:39:31] I mean, this is not...

[00:39:34] I think in one of the articles I read said you can make it.

[00:39:38] Yeah.

[00:39:38] My understanding is that you can, but I don't...

[00:39:42] I would guess it is dangerous as commercial-grade chloroform is.

[00:39:47] Homemade chloroform would probably be even still more dangerous.

[00:39:49] Well, they are...

[00:39:50] I don't know exactly how you can make it or if you can make a substitute

[00:39:54] or what exactly is going on here, but I know investigators from Saratoga

[00:39:58] are investigating how he got this chloroform.

[00:40:00] Did he get it from somewhere?

[00:40:03] Did he produce it?

[00:40:04] Is someone else producing it and selling it illegally?

[00:40:07] I don't know.

[00:40:08] But they need to figure out where he got it from

[00:40:13] because this could be dangerous for other people too.

[00:40:15] And so, Kreider is not charged with murder,

[00:40:18] but he is charged with second-degree manslaughter and evidence tampering.

[00:40:22] So that speaks to me that investigators do not believe

[00:40:26] that this was purposeful or that he intended to kill Mr. Kreider,

[00:40:30] but they are still holding him accountable for what he did do.

[00:40:35] And it also sounds like they believe that this was a consensual encounter.

[00:40:39] Yes, that's been very clear from the Times Union's coverage

[00:40:43] that there's nothing about a kidnapping

[00:40:46] or somebody being lured somewhere and attacked.

[00:40:49] It seems like what investigators believe at this time

[00:40:53] is that this was a consensual sexual encounter

[00:40:55] that unfortunately had a tragic ending.

[00:40:58] And it does underscore when it comes to substances

[00:41:04] that can render someone unconscious or render somebody incapacitated,

[00:41:12] dosing is often the difference between life and death.

[00:41:16] And if someone gets a dose wrong, then people can die.

[00:41:19] And it's very, very dangerous.

[00:41:21] And so it's important to be aware that sometimes somebody

[00:41:26] can find themselves in real danger,

[00:41:29] even if it's not someone who intends to do them harm.

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[00:41:36] a gripping murder mystery starring Academy Award winner Russell Crowe,

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[00:41:43] Crowe portrays an ex-homicide detective

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[00:41:54] It's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

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[00:43:12] Well said.

[00:43:13] Should we now wrap up by taking a trip to the neighboring state of Kentucky?

[00:43:18] Yeah, we're going to go visit our southern neighbor now I suppose.

[00:43:22] So this case is wild.

[00:43:26] I mean it's just...

[00:43:29] What are your sources for it?

[00:43:30] My sources were WSMV had an exclusive report.

[00:43:35] We're going to link to that.

[00:43:36] By Jeremy Finley?

[00:43:37] Is that the man's name?

[00:43:38] I believe so.

[00:43:39] And you should all check this out.

[00:43:40] And they've been doing just incredible coverage of this case.

[00:43:43] So we're not going to get you all the details.

[00:43:46] You should, if you're interested, read up on their site.

[00:43:51] That will take care of every curiosity I think you have about this.

[00:43:55] And I also read the Martin v Commonwealth 2003 case,

[00:44:00] which was I believe the man at the center of this is like a pellet case.

[00:44:06] That gave some interesting details.

[00:44:08] So a man named Christian or Kit Martin had been a major in the United States Army.

[00:44:14] He was stationed at Fort Campbell in Kentucky.

[00:44:17] He was living in Pembroke, Kentucky.

[00:44:20] And he was having some pretty bad problems in his life.

[00:44:25] He and his wife, his ex-wife Joan Harmon, you know they separated.

[00:44:30] They were getting a divorce.

[00:44:33] And she accused him of abusing her.

[00:44:36] And he was also being accused with conduct, unbecoming an officer,

[00:44:40] and abuse of a child less than 16 years old.

[00:44:44] And mishandling classified military documents.

[00:44:48] Now where that all comes in is that we have to go back to a situation involving

[00:44:56] Joan Harmon and a couple named Calvin and Pamela Phillips.

[00:45:01] Harmon said she wanted to leave Martin and asked her neighbors, the Phillips's,

[00:45:09] to help her move out of the house.

[00:45:12] And that she shared with Martin.

[00:45:15] So during that move, Mr. Phillips is moving stuff around

[00:45:18] and he looks over at a desk and sees what seems to be classified military intelligence

[00:45:23] documents lying on the desk just out where anyone can view them.

[00:45:27] Which is obviously, my understanding is not appropriate for documents of that level.

[00:45:34] And meanwhile, Miss Martin also sends him a picture of one of Martin's children

[00:45:42] that had apparent injuries that she said were inflicted on this child by the father.

[00:45:48] So Phillips passes all that on to the Federal Bureau of Investigation saying like this guy

[00:45:55] is abusing a child and also has all these classified military documents just lying out.

[00:46:03] And this essentially ended up going into a court martial.

[00:46:08] So Martin was facing court martial and Calvin Phillips was going to be a key witness

[00:46:15] at the court martial.

[00:46:16] Meanwhile, the Phillips's started telling people they were very scared of Martin.

[00:46:20] If anything happened to them that everyone should look at Martin.

[00:46:22] The court martial was continued a number of times, but ultimately,

[00:46:26] it seemed like it was going to finally happen in December of 2015.

[00:46:31] On November 18, 2015, Pamela had not heard from her husband and she was freaked out

[00:46:37] because a washing machine had been supposed to be delivered,

[00:46:40] but she got word that they couldn't deliver it because no one was at home.

[00:46:44] So she went home early to check on her husband Calvin.

[00:46:48] And while she did this, she was on a phone with a friend.

[00:46:50] That friend said, yeah, I actually tried to call Calvin earlier and I couldn't get a hold of him.

[00:46:56] So I'm not really sure what's going on.

[00:46:59] Pamela asked her friend to hold on because she saw something.

[00:47:03] Then she screams and the line goes dead.

[00:47:07] The friend hurries over to her house.

[00:47:09] She finds the door open, but no one's there.

[00:47:12] At the time, the friend says Pamela's car was parked there normally.

[00:47:17] She leaves, comes back in about an hour and the car has been moved.

[00:47:22] So next morning at 2 15 a.m., a farmer hears gunshots

[00:47:28] and then the next day finds a car burning in his field.

[00:47:34] So the bodies of Pamela Phillips and the Phillips' neighbor Edward Dancerow

[00:47:40] are found in the car and they have been shot with a .22 caliber weapon.

[00:47:45] Meanwhile, investigators find the body of Calvin Phillips in his home.

[00:47:48] He had been killed with a .45 caliber gun.

[00:47:51] So this is just a horrific triple homicide, obviously.

[00:47:59] The Phillips' son and his aunt ended up kind of taking control of the house after this

[00:48:04] horrific case and the aunt found a shell casing in 2016.

[00:48:11] It was tested in 2018.

[00:48:15] The test revealed to have been fired from Martin's gun.

[00:48:19] So the theory became that Phillips was getting ready to testify against Martin,

[00:48:25] so he wanted to eliminate him as a witness.

[00:48:28] So he killed him and then Mrs. Phillips and Mr. Dancerow happened to come back

[00:48:34] or kind of stumble upon the crime at the wrong time and they were eliminated too.

[00:48:41] So ultimately though it took a long time for this all to come together.

[00:48:45] So he was arrested in 2019.

[00:48:47] At that point, he became a pilot for PSA Airlines, which is a subsidiary of American Airlines.

[00:48:53] He was tried in 2021 and he was convicted on three counts of first degree murder

[00:48:57] and he got life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[00:49:01] But as WSMV reported, there were a lot of things that just didn't quite like,

[00:49:06] why didn't no one hear the gunshots?

[00:49:09] Why did the AR-15 that Martin had seemingly not match the AR-15

[00:49:15] that had been used to shoot Mrs. Phillips and Mr. Dancerow?

[00:49:21] How do we account for that?

[00:49:22] And of course, Martin is proclaiming his innocence, you know, whatever.

[00:49:28] Well, Kentucky investigators sort of stayed on the case,

[00:49:31] specifically Lieutenant Scott Smith of the Christian County Sheriff's Department.

[00:49:36] They kept on monitoring Martin's calls from prison.

[00:49:41] And in one call, he told his sister very urgently,

[00:49:44] okay, my house, my new house in Raleigh, North Carolina,

[00:49:48] it's going to be put on the market.

[00:49:50] I need you to go there and get a box that is hidden under the staircase.

[00:49:55] And I'm not, don't worry about what's in it, but go get the box.

[00:49:59] Well, Kentucky investigators beat them there

[00:50:02] and they find a box with a silencer, a silencer for a gun.

[00:50:11] So might answer one question about this case as well as an AR-15-22.

[00:50:17] Now, unfortunately that AR-15-22 had been stripped of all the parts

[00:50:21] that could possibly identify any bullets

[00:50:24] that would have matched it to the crime scene.

[00:50:28] But like, okay, like that's interesting.

[00:50:32] This doesn't have any real impact on the case

[00:50:36] because he's already been convicted.

[00:50:38] But this might silence some, you know, doubts about his guilt, I would imagine.

[00:50:46] Using the word silence because there was a silencer?

[00:50:48] No, I wasn't.

[00:50:49] I stumble into puns all the time, but I just think that, I mean, yeah.

[00:50:55] I think he's exactly where he needs to be.

[00:50:57] That sounds like the case.

[00:51:00] I'm curious as to why he held onto those weapons for so long.

[00:51:08] Yeah, I mean.

[00:51:09] I would think if you're a pilot, probably travel,

[00:51:12] you probably have chances to get rid of things.

[00:51:16] Arrogance?

[00:51:17] I don't know.

[00:51:17] It's definitely, I mean, this is a really horrific case.

[00:51:21] Like what the Phillips family went through

[00:51:22] and what Mr. Dancerow went through was just horrifying.

[00:51:26] And it was all because they essentially were trying to do the right thing

[00:51:29] by being honest about what they saw.

[00:51:31] And this man just sounds like he's been out of control for a while,

[00:51:34] victimizing his own family,

[00:51:38] doing things that he shouldn't be in a trusted position with the military.

[00:51:43] And then instead of taking any sort of accountability for any of that,

[00:51:46] he takes it out on the people who, you know,

[00:51:49] just happen to witness his bad behavior.

[00:51:51] Like the arrogance of that is stunning, you know?

[00:51:57] And it's just scary that there are people out there.

[00:51:59] I mean, and frankly, the law enforcement and our system

[00:52:02] has to take these cases incredibly seriously

[00:52:04] because elimination of witnesses is not just an attack on individuals,

[00:52:08] it's an attack on the entire system.

[00:52:11] That's an excellent point and well said.

[00:52:14] I'd like to thank people for listening to this cheat sheet.

[00:52:17] But before we wrap up,

[00:52:20] I've gotten some very kind messages wishing me well in my recovery.

[00:52:24] I think at this point, I'm probably like maybe 85% back to my usual self.

[00:52:31] You're getting rambunctious again.

[00:52:32] I want to publicly thank you for being so helpful

[00:52:35] during the whole recovery process.

[00:52:37] And also it's incredible when there's something wrong with me,

[00:52:41] not only does Anya take care of me,

[00:52:43] but I don't know if it's because of anxiety or worry.

[00:52:47] She has a lot of energy.

[00:52:48] So she's going around cleaning up the house.

[00:52:51] She's doing a lot of extra stuff.

[00:52:55] So she's really been putting herself through the wringer

[00:52:57] and I want to thank you for that.

[00:52:58] Well, you're really sweet.

[00:52:59] And when you're not around to goof around with me,

[00:53:02] then I'm just going to be like putting all my pent up energy

[00:53:04] into everything else.

[00:53:06] So I'm excited that you're feeling so much better.

[00:53:08] She's publicly accusing me of keeping her from housework.

[00:53:11] No, well, I'm just glad you're feeling better

[00:53:15] because I think you're the best.

[00:53:18] So I love you.

[00:53:18] Well, I love you too.

[00:53:20] And we also love our audience.

[00:53:21] Yeah, we love you guys.

[00:53:22] Thank you all for listening.

[00:53:23] Thank you for listening.

[00:53:24] We just appreciate all of you.

[00:53:27] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

[00:53:30] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover,

[00:53:33] please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

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[00:54:12] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee

[00:54:14] who composed the music for the murder sheet

[00:54:17] and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:54:22] If you're looking to talk with other listeners

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[00:54:42] Thanks again for listening.