The Cheat Sheet: Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles

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[00:01:49] That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash msheet. Content warning. Today's episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including the murder of a child. I should say here at the top that Anya is putting the absolute finishing touches on our book.

[00:02:16] And so this cheat sheet has been entirely my responsibility. So she gets she gets a pass. If it's bad, I get a pass. If it's really good, I get no credit. If it's really good, maybe there'd be a groundswell for you to be removed from the process altogether. Maybe that's what people want. Fine. If that's what you guys want, then fine. I'm not mad at all. And just really hurt.

[00:02:46] Well, this is already going off the rails. So today we'll be talking about cases from California, Michigan, Nevada and the great state of Texas. Aside from our northern neighbor, Michigan, it's very Western centric episode. That's right. All right. Well, because I was planning the episode, I tried to pick places close together so we wouldn't go bankrupt on the cane train. Not the cane train again. I planned it.

[00:03:13] I planned out a route that I thought made more sense. Well, Michigan kind of is, I don't know, that's a bit far flung, but I guess the other ones are okay. Texas is a big state as is California, so I don't know. I'd have to map this out. See if the cane train's going to save money. Why am I letting you do another thing like this to me? First the cereal and now this. No, it's a cane train.

[00:03:39] I had to spend a lot of time this week raising the money to pay for your travel expenses from last week. It's also part of the reason I took over. See the words. But let's push the button and start. Oh, gosh. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:04:08] We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Cheat Sheet, Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles.

[00:04:59] I just want to say, Kevin, before we get started, I appreciate your adorable pick for the episode title for this episode. Thank you very much. It's very cute, very adorable. I'm sure it's going to have some horrifying connotation that we're going to learn about suddenly, but little cuddles, that's cute. Well, thank you for that. You're welcome. I'd like to start out in California. This is a case that we've come back to the last couple of weeks.

[00:05:27] It is the case of Orange County Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Ferguson, who shot and killed his wife. No doubt about the fact that this man pulled the trigger of a gun that was fired and killed his wife. The question that the jury had to wrestle with was how responsible he was for this. Was it intentional?

[00:05:53] And he made some interesting comments immediately afterwards in text messages and such that he sent to people indicating, oh, I lost it. I shot and killed my wife. Things of that nature. So to a lot of people, maybe it doesn't sound like that difficult of a case. But also the fact of the matter is if he had been convicted, he would face a pretty stiff penalty. Well, I mean, that's kind of what typically happens when you shoot and kill somebody.

[00:06:23] So basically, we summarized the case, I think, a couple of weeks ago. And then last week there was what I thought was a very odd update. It looked like it was heading towards a mistrial. It was a hung jury. And so the judge took the unusual step of bringing the jury back in and giving counsel for the prosecution and the defense another 10 minutes to make some more closing arguments. Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:06:52] That didn't work out so well. And a mistrial ended up being declared. What was the breakdown? 11 to 1 for conviction. Oh, yeah, that sounds about right. Right? I mean, I'm sorry. I thought this was a pretty obvious case. I thought it was a pretty obvious case. Somebody doesn't want to send sad grandpa to prison for life. That's what that sounds like. And I understand that. It's a pretty big deal.

[00:07:20] But the facts as they have been described have been pretty brutal on him. I'm going to read something from the NBC News coverage. Quote, Orange County District Attorney Todd Spitzer said the hung jury was a victory. 11 to 1 for guilty is a phenomenal success, he told reporters. Unquote. Unquote. Okay. That's it. That's a good. That's a little. Why did you read it like that? That's a little too much. It's not a victory.

[00:07:50] But it's definitely. That's a phenomenal success. We did it, guys. I can think of something that would have been an even greater success. I think, yeah, they all like started hootering and hollering. Yeah, we did it. No, I think they probably would have preferred him to get convicted. But I. I remember Anya and I used to way back in the Brooklyn days, we'd occasionally. Those dark days. We'd occasionally watch this ridiculous show featuring the Tennessee Wraith Chasers. Oh, I loved that show. Every week they would go and hunt for ghosts.

[00:08:20] This may be relevant a little bit later in the program. Every week they would go and hunt for ghosts. And they would never find the ghosts because, of course, there are no ghosts. Ghosts don't exist. But so every week they would fail. But at the end of every episode, the Wraith Chaser leader would say, well, actually, even though we failed in all of our stated goals, it was really a success. And that's what I thought of when I read that statement.

[00:08:45] I understand 11 to 1 for conviction is a lot better than 11 to 1 for acquittal. So, yeah, I mean, that would have probably been a sign that you probably shouldn't retry it. I mean, yeah, there's a certain level of, you know, PR spin there going on. But I mean, it certainly it certainly puts them in the realm of like it sounds like whatever hold out, you know, that may have been who knows. You know, you you can have someone with a good reason for holding out. You're going to someone with a bad reason for holding out. It doesn't really matter.

[00:09:13] But if it's 11 to 1 in your favor, whatever side you're on, that's looking pretty good for the next go around. Because, you know, I mean, all juries are different. You're going to get a totally different group of people. But at the very least, it's kind of indicating that most people were on your side for this one. Maybe somebody didn't quite get there. But it did say they are prepared to retry the case. And certainly if I was Judge Ferguson or his attorneys, an 11 to 1. Yeah, I'd be looking to make a deal at that point. Yes.

[00:09:41] I also wanted to highlight the fact that Ferguson gave an interview to Inside Edition. Oh, my God. And I want to read to you what one of the things he said. He said, quote, I wasn't angry at her. I loved her. We were just bickering like Lucy and Desi. I did not murder her. It has been a while since I've watched any episode of I Love Lucy.

[00:10:09] I don't seem to remember Desi Arnaz pulling guns on Lucy in those episodes. No, that's pretty dark. That's a pretty dark approximation of beloved sitcom. Yeah, so that didn't. Yeah. He's an interesting man, this judge. Yeah. Also, he says he wasn't angry at her, but weren't they fighting that day? They were fighting. They had a fight in a restaurant.

[00:10:37] At one point during the fight, he raised his hand to her and he made his hand into the shape of a gun by extending a finger at her. And then later on when they were at home, she said something like, why don't you point a real gun at me? At which point he pulled out the real gun and shot her. By his account, he thought she said something like, I believe he thought she said something like, when she put the gun down or something.

[00:11:07] And he had a gun in his ankle holster. So he thought, well, I'm just going to do what she says to make peace and pull out the gun to set it down. But somehow, despite his experience with guns, he accidentally fired it by his account. I don't believe that. I think one juror did. Yeah. Or sometimes you have jurors who just have a problem with casting judgment on other people. It's too much for them. You know, they lack that backbone and they just kind of want to do something to go away. They don't want to they don't want to live with it. You know what?

[00:11:35] I understand that some people just have those personalities. But, you know, or maybe they felt they didn't prove it. Who knows? You don't you don't know until that juror comes forward and says, here's what my reasoning was. You know, it reminded me of a I love Lucy episode. And I just totally sympathized with. I mean, also the fact he's doing like a media tour right now is like, OK, well, at least inside edition. Well, I don't know. I thought it was a pretty obvious case.

[00:12:02] I would think that maybe this would be a case where if I were on the defense side, I'd probably want to plead it out if I could. Who knows if that's even on the table? It may not be. It's not always on the table. Sometimes the prosecution just wants to go to trial. But if some kind of deal were worked out, that could possibly, you know, make it sure like maybe maybe you don't necessarily die in prison or, you know, you have the possibility

[00:12:26] of getting out, although he's so old that obviously this man, you know, I don't know. Like he's to me, the fact that he's not like the fact he's like, oh, I wasn't angry at her and all this stuff. It's like, OK, but like you were fighting. That was all sort of documented. Like it sort of seems like rewriting history now. It doesn't seem super honest. Like I think something where he said, like, we were fighting. I didn't intend to kill her. I was just super drunk.

[00:12:53] I could buy that more than whatever the spin is now. And also, how does that make any sense? Like, oh, she's so freaked out by the gun holster. So let me put the gun in my hand so I can, you know. Also, by all accounts, he was in a state of intoxication at the time. And so my understanding is that people, when they are intoxicated, don't always think as clearly as one would hope. Yeah, that's I've never been intoxicated. So I wouldn't know.

[00:13:22] I certainly have. And I would say also that I would I think any responsible gun owner would probably tell you that guns and alcohol really don't mix. And that's just probably not a great idea to be getting slammed and doing anything with your gun because, you know, that's not that's not responsible. Also, responsible gun owners will tell you you don't point anything at anybody in terms of guns, you know, unless you're prepared to possibly kill somebody.

[00:13:50] So and if you don't want to, don't point it at them. So it's it's definitely, you know, it's sad for this woman. I'm sure it's, you know, been very difficult for this family because not only is she dead, but also now their father is facing this situation. So it's it's obviously tragic. Stay hydrated. Stay healthy. When you podcast as much as we do, you learn that firsthand. We drink lots of water so we don't sound terrible and alienate all of you good people.

[00:14:18] It's also nice to feel hydrated and refreshed. The thing is, though, I've always encouraged Kevin to drink more water. But he's always the guy that wants bottled water because he doesn't like the taste of tap water. Wow. So fancy. Turns out, though, Kevin's pickiness may be right for a change. Exactly. Just this once. Research by the Environmental Working Group finds that many homes in America can have harmful contaminants in their tap water. That's where Aqua True comes in.

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[00:17:24] My sources for this are the Detroit Free Press, New York Times, and People Magazine. And you can probably tell this is the kind of case I pick because I always find it interesting when people end up getting charged with murder or getting charged criminally for the death of someone. When, by all accounts, they did not wake up that morning intending to kill someone.

[00:17:49] Just something happened unexpected that created a tragic circumstance to which some authorities believe they should be held legally accountable. I am curious, Anya, have you ever heard of hyperbaric chambers? I have, yes. What do you know about them, if anything? Very little. I really know very little about them.

[00:18:15] So hyperbaric chambers are basically a chamber you would go into and breathe pure oxygen. Because of the nature of oxygen, these chambers are highly flammable. And also supposedly bringing in the pure oxygen is, it is suggested to people that it has huge medicinal benefits and maybe it can benefit people in some ways.

[00:18:41] But it doesn't seem to benefit them in all the many ways that the owners of hyperbaric chambers would try to make people believe it does. So they're like overselling the benefits potentially here? Yes. The person in this case was being treated for sleep apnea and ADHD in a hyperbaric chamber. What?

[00:19:04] And as we talk about it, we'll see this, they refer to someone else being treated for erectile dysfunction in a hyperbaric chamber. FDA has not approved hyperbaric chambers for those sorts of things, which means that there's really no convincing scientific evidence to back it up. Right. Okay. So it's maybe it's fringe in terms of some of these applications.

[00:19:33] In some of the applications, maybe not totally fringe in all areas, but certainly in some of the applications. And so this is the story of a five-year-old boy named Thomas Cooper. He was, as we indicated, he was receiving treatment for ADHD and sleep apnea. Five years old, lived in Royal Oak, Michigan. Oh, man. He went to a center in Troy, Michigan.

[00:20:03] And while he was being treated, a fire started in the chamber and the chamber exploded and the boy was dead. Oh, that's awful. God, a five-year-old? A five-year-old. Okay, that's horrible. And again, what he was being treated for, there's really no convincing evidence that this would have helped.

[00:20:28] So in this case, three people have been charged with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. That is the owner of the facility, Tamela Peterson, the safety manager at the facility, Jeffrey Mosteller, and the primary management assistant, Gary Morgan. The person operating the chamber was charged with involuntary manslaughter and falsifying medical records.

[00:20:58] So it's a tragic story. They were trying to make money as a business. And they did not really put a high priority on safety. And they were basically, to quote the attorney general of Michigan, Dana Nessel.

[00:21:27] She said that the center used the machine's quote on children's bodies over and over again to provide unaccredited and debunked so-called treatments, chiefly because it brought cash into the door. Oh, wow. That's very upsetting. Well, can I just say something weird? Yeah. I'm going to say this. You know, this is not a defense of them at all.

[00:21:55] It's just more of a kind of an interesting historical fact that this brought to my mind. So I'm going to say it because I guess that's what I do. That's what you do. That's what I do. So this is something I was – and also shout out to my dad because this is his sort of where he works and I think he'd be interested in this. And I know he listens. So hi, dad. Hello, sir. This is a situation where in – I'm thinking kind of primarily I think the 20s and the 30s.

[00:22:21] There were situations where the anesthesia they would use in hospitals at that time. Specifically, I think cyclopropane was a big problem and maybe ethylene, I want to say. They were very flammable and you would actually have explosions where people would die. Patients would die, you know. And so it's – I mean obviously nowadays anesthesia is a lot safer.

[00:22:49] Now the thing is in anesthesia we can all see the kind of necessary and practical application for that in order to have a surgery. If it's – most surgeries it's far better and going to have a better outcome and you're going to be able to do stuff if the patient is under anesthesia, under general anesthesia and essentially knocked out.

[00:23:10] But when it comes to this, if there's no real – if the practical effects and the kind of – if it's dubious at best and it's not really documented then obviously – And they weren't following safety procedures. Well, that's true. I mean if you're kind of like – like if you're going to do some woo-woo stuff, some kind of whatever, like we don't really know if this works. Okay. I don't think that's good. And, you know, maybe it could be harmful in a different way.

[00:23:39] I think that, you know, maybe you're not getting a more effective treatment, you know. But if you're going to do all that stuff, ensure that no one dies, right? I mean ensure that it's a fully safe environment where, you know, little kids aren't going to be in danger. I think that's fair. So the question is – so these people are – Yes. These people are charged with murder, right? Yeah. Three of them are and the fourth is involuntary manslaughter.

[00:24:07] It feels like Michigan does this a lot with charging people with murder. Like there's a couple of these cases that you like. We've had them before. Yeah. Do you think that's good or do you think that's overcharging people? That's a good question. I think at this point I'd really like to see more evidence in this case. I'm curious what you would think. I'm going to tell you a little bit of the additional evidence in this case to get kind of your reaction to it. Because what I just told you was the bare bones. Right.

[00:24:36] A detective who worked the case, Danielle Trigger. Danielle Trigger. What a name for a detective. Detective Trigger. It sounds like from an action movie. Yeah, it does. She gave some testimony where she disclosed some information. She indicated the police had found some electronic messages on some devices that were owned by Tamela Peterson, who was the CEO of this company.

[00:25:01] In one of these exchanges, the CEO sent photos of the burning corpse of the boy and wrote something. I will quote. She wrote, quote, something to the effect of if my leg was on fire, I would at least try to hit it and put it out. He just lay there and did nothing. End quote. What? That's sort of really bizarre victim blaming. What? Okay, that's really distasteful.

[00:25:30] I'm trying not to let, like, my distaste at that necessarily affect my view on, like, how the law should be applied. But yikes, that's really why. In other text messages, I kind of alluded to this a little bit before Peterson was responding to a question about whether or not she used these hyperbaric chambers to treat erectile dysfunctions. She responded, quote, whatever gets bodies in those chambers, LOL.

[00:25:59] So this is not a person who really seems to have a lot of scientific rigor, doesn't really necessarily believe in these treatments. She's just doing whatever she can to get people to pay for them. I, yeah. I will say, though, like, does that even matter in this case? If you were just like, this is the greatest thing, this will save your life, and you still had a crappy facility where someone died and burned alive, then I would still say, like, that's not good either.

[00:26:28] It's just bad for a different kind of reason. Yeah, yeah. It has no real legal relevance, I guess. But it goes to show something about the nature of the people involved in this. Trigger also testified that the staff did not follow proper safety protocols.

[00:26:53] There's things like grounding straps, which usually are worn around the wrists, which would help get rid of static electricity, which sometimes causes a fire. Those were not used. At one point in the past, someone who worked there to run these hyperbaric chambers said that the safety practices were so poor she didn't feel comfortable running them. Wow. And that woman was fired.

[00:27:25] That's concerning. Also because it's highly flammable, you're not supposed to use any clothing inside the chamber unless it's made of 100% cotton, and there's no indication that any effort was made to ensure that this boy's clothes were 100% cotton. It's just upsetting that it wouldn't have taken much to save the life of this boy.

[00:27:55] Either don't sell the quack medicine treatment, or if you do, make an effort to make sure it's safe. They would also go, these machines had some sort of counter, which would indicate how many times they had been used, and they would regularly go into that and roll the numbers back like it's a car you're selling. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's really, that's not good.

[00:28:25] Also, the, Ms. Peterson tried to hide video footage of the incident from detectives, so obviously didn't want to cooperate. So yeah, there's a lot of troubling stuff here. I'm not sure if it qualifies as murder, but if not, it's pretty close. In my mind, I don't know that it's murder. In my mind, I think you need to prosecute cases like this really severely.

[00:28:51] I mean, this is like, you know, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire stuff where it's just like, yeah, let's just run a really terrible environment and then someone inevitably gets hurt and it's like, oh my gosh, you know, and it's like profit driven. Because, I mean, that's genuinely scary. I don't like people getting ripped off for possibly scammy stuff, right?

[00:29:17] But, you know, if people are going to do that, then, you know, certainly no one should be ending up dead. And it seems like even in this environment, like there was ways that they could have run this in a way that would have ensured that this child didn't die horribly. So, yeah, it's very hard to sympathize in this case. And that bizarre text, I'm sorry, I can't get that out of my head. What would compel someone to send that?

[00:29:43] Like, oh, I run a terrible facility and a child burned alive inside my facility. And isn't it weird that he didn't like do anything about it? It's like, what were you doing about it? Like, what? Yeah. You know, the problem isn't what he did. It's about what you allowed to happen. Yeah, that's horrible. Well, my heart goes out to his family. What a horrible situation. And I'm sure, like, there's a lot of...

[00:30:06] And that's especially upsetting because it only took a few seconds to kill this boy. Yeah. What was he supposed to do in a few seconds? I mean, beyond, like, beyond anything else. I mean...

[00:30:20] There is a tendency all too often in true crime for people to look at crime victims and say, oh, what they did in the moment when they had a split second to decide, I sitting at home and pondering it, I may have done something different. And so, therefore, the victims are to blame. Well, it's like... And that's nonsense. It is nonsense. I mean, I think it's an... I mean, to be honest, I think we're all just kind of human at the end of the day.

[00:30:49] And I think that instinct comes from an understandable place. The instinct comes from all of us wanting to feel safe. So when you watch something and you're like, I would not have dated that guy or I would have gotten out there or I wouldn't have accepted that ride. It's a way to feel safe. It's a way to feel like I am learning from this and I will now not do those things and I'm inputting data so that I will not be murdered. And I think we all have that instinctive feeling. I don't know if there's a way to help that.

[00:31:16] But I think there's a way we can express ourselves in a way that's not victim blaming. And I think we need to just be careful where, like, we can... That impulse can lead to victim blaming and we can kind of cut it off to the point where it's like, okay, you know, just because my lizard brain is taking this in as a kind of a cautionary tale does not mean that's the way I necessarily have to voice it or, you know, talk about it. And in this case, I mean, geez, like, I just imagine there's a lot of guilt on the family side.

[00:31:45] You know, they're trying to help him deal with these conditions. They think this is a good way of doing it. And then to have it end so horribly is just honestly horrifying. Let's move on to the great state of Texas. And this is a story from NBC News. It involves a woman named Brittany Marlo Holberg, who has been... She stood convicted of murder for 27 years.

[00:32:15] And she's actually been... Was sentenced to death. Whoa. And the man she killed was A.B. Towery, an 80-year-old man. Holberg was a sex worker. And her client, Mr. Towery, was found dead, quote, with stab wounds and part of a lamp in his throat, end quote. Holberg claims the whole thing had been in self-defense, but obviously the jury didn't buy that.

[00:32:44] As I indicate, she was not only convicted, she was sentenced to death. So why are we talking about someone who was convicted of this awful crime 27 years ago? And the reason why is because her conviction was thrown out recently. Why? So one of the witnesses in the case was a person named Vicki Marie Kirkpatrick. And she testified, oh, she said it was for self-defense.

[00:33:14] But actually, she told me it was for the money. And this is someone who, as it turns out, was a confidential informant who was working for the police. And the fact that she was a confidential informant was not disclosed to the defense. So do you want to discuss what a confidential informant is? I mean, I've never worked in law enforcement.

[00:33:41] But my understanding is that it's basically someone who is providing information to law enforcement. And they can be paid for that. There can be some funds given to them for that. So if I'm a- She was a paid informant for them. Yeah, so if I'm a confidential informant, I might be part of like a serial thieving gang. And I might be then going to the police and sort of snitching on people. Yeah. That's basically it. Maybe getting some money. Yeah.

[00:34:06] And so obviously, it's entirely possible that a person who is a paid confidential informant is telling the absolute truth. And their word should be relied upon. Yeah, I would imagine. It's also possible that a person who has an ongoing business relationship with the police and is getting money might sometimes stretch the truth. I would also imagine that happens.

[00:34:29] And so in my mind, it seems rather obvious that the status of a witness as a confidential informant should be disclosed to the defense so they can raise it in front of the jury. And then the jury would be in a position to listen to the cross, evaluate that claim, and come to their own decision about whether or not to find the testimony credible. I completely agree. That has to be given to the jury. That has to be given to the defense.

[00:34:59] They have to be able to cross-examine the witness with that in mind so that they can get to the truth and, you know, go hard against the witness and possibly get at, like, well, are you just saying this because that's what they want you to say? Or, you know, I think that's ridiculous that that was not handed over. I have a question. So she's a CI for – is she a CI for the same, I guess, agency that's working this case?

[00:35:26] Or is it just, like, the fact she was a CI at all? I believe it is the same agency. I'm not 100%. Okay. Okay. Well, you know, either way – Either way, it raises some questions. Either way, it should have been disclosed for sure because, yeah, if that's – you know, if there's a business relationship there, that's important. So it goes back to the trial court.

[00:35:49] I should say that one of the judges on the Court of Appeals was pretty upset about this, writing, quote, quote, even had Kirkpatrick been impeached. There's zero chance that a jury would have credited Holberg's laughable claim of self-defense or spared her the death penalty for slaughtering a sick old man, end quote. Yeah. It sounds like she did it. Yeah, and I understand where he's coming from.

[00:36:16] It's upsetting that perhaps she was guilty of this crime and because of this error, she's getting another bite of the apple. But I think there's no choice. I think there's no choice, but this sounds like a guilty person going free. So, you know, I hope – Well, not going free because there'd probably be a new trial. Oh, really? Okay. Even though it's, like, so old? Yeah. I would imagine so. I mean, here's my thinking. He's 80 years old and there's a part of a lamp in his neck.

[00:36:44] I mean, like, how much do you need to kill somebody, I guess? Like, that seems like overdoing it for an elderly and then if they're saying he was also ill, old man. Yeah. I don't know. Seems like that's an interesting way to defend yourself. But I will – but I will – you know. But this is kind of why it's so important for everything to get disclosed and everything to be done properly.

[00:37:11] You know, her rights were violated here regardless and there should be an accountability here because it – just because – just because maybe the indications are she really did it doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want in the system because that's how you start getting – that does not lead anywhere good. No, it doesn't. So I think they did the right thing by throwing this back down because I – yeah. I mean, that's appalling.

[00:37:38] And why the heck didn't the prosecution team disclose that at the time? That's disturbing. Good question. You know, I mean, was this oversight or was this, you know, I mean, being sneaky? Because if it's being sneaky, then that's really not okay. Our final case, sources for this, Fox News and CNN, and this is from Nevada. Anya, earlier we discussed your fondness for the Tennessee Wraith Chasers. I love them. That show is so fun.

[00:38:07] I have to ask you, have you ever heard of a program called Ghost Adventures? I haven't. I don't think I have. See, you and I watched a couple of shows. And again, to be very clear, we don't believe in ghosts. But I just think those ghost shows are fun. And usually they have some wacky take on local history, which is kind of also fun. But that's – I don't feel like I've seen that one, or at least not that I remember. Name sounds vaguely familiar. Name sounds vaguely familiar.

[00:38:37] Did we watch it? Because you're the only one I really watch the ghost shows with. I have no recollection of it. Okay. All right. So what happened? Did someone get murdered? No. Good. We always try to end these cheat sheets with the lightest case. Don't give away our schemes. No, that's one of our schemes. We don't want to have like a really dark case involving something terrible and then say, oh, good night, folks. Ha ha. Do you want to buy a shirt? That's awkward.

[00:39:06] No one wants this. So – Why are you telling them our tricks? Why are you divulging? I'm a very honest man. Wow. I put this whole episode together. So be very honest with my dear friends, the listeners. Ha ha. No, this was not a case where someone actually died and became a ghost. Good. This was a case involving one of the stars of Ghost Adventures, a man named Aaron Goodwin. He is married to a woman named Victoria Goodwin.

[00:39:36] And if you look at their social media, at least until recently, it seemed to be a very happy union. Okay. There was one – and here's where I justify the title of the episode, folks. There was one photo, I believe, on Instagram that showed the Goodwens and, I believe, a pet all together on a couch. And Miss Goodwin captioned it, cuddle puddles. So – Okay. Okay. Okay.

[00:40:05] So the cuddle puddles weren't anything super bad, just – yeah. So she was arrested recently on charges of soliciting someone to commit murder, and that would be the murder of her husband. Oh, my gosh. She, according to investigators, willfully, unlawfully, and feloniously plotted to commit the murder of her husband. She was communicating with an inmate in Florida. At least at some point, she said, oh, I was just buying cell phones.

[00:40:34] But apparently, this was someone she had learned about through some true crime program and started communicating with him. You're kidding me. No. And she fell in love with him and started dreaming of a future with him. And surprise, surprise, felt her husband would not accept divorce.

[00:40:58] So she started talking about having her husband killed. She would wonder, quote, am I a bad person? Because I chose to end his existence, not divorce. Yes. The answer is yes. Yes, you are a bad person. That's very bad. You are a bad person. Hope that helps. She now says, no, I didn't want him to be killed. My husband and I are now in a great place. But at that time, we were struggling.

[00:41:27] And maybe I had some fantasies. I was going to say, elaborate role play situation. Or daydreams about a situation. Sometimes I wistfully look out the window and wish for my husband's death. You know, that old excuse. Jeez. You're not talking about you and me? No. I just wanted to make sure. Double checking. And this all came as a shock to the husband who believed their relationship was great. I feel so bad for him.

[00:41:57] That's heartbreaking. Well, apparently, when he got the phone call giving him this shocking, life-changing news, he was on camera for his reality show. And so it might appear in an episode. Oh, gosh. That's like, I mean, I hope he's okay with that, you know? But, like, that's horrible. Just that kind of betrayal. I mean, it's one thing, you know, someone's not into you anymore. It's another thing. Somebody literally wants you to die because they're too lazy or cheap to get a divorce.

[00:42:27] I mean, jeez. And again, as Anya mentioned, yes, you are a bad person if you choose to end someone's existence. Yeah, just kind of. Instead of getting a divorce. That's not a really tough question. She's a bit of a philosopher. Does that make me bad? Yes. You know, I actually looked this up because this is the thing. And this is absolutely a thing that drives a lot of completely nutty behavior.

[00:42:54] Just nonsensical foolishness in true crime. And that is there is a term for a paraphilia that involves falling in love with inmates, maybe murderers, maybe even serial killers. They'll do anything. I'm going to pronounce it wrong because I don't know how to read words. So I'm sorry.

[00:43:14] But it's hybristophilia where that's like a documented thing where you romanticize criminals. People did this famously with Ted Bundy. People are saying, wow, he's so handsome. I love him. He's going to be my husband. And it's weird and bad. And I think actually it happens a lot in true crime.

[00:43:41] You have a lot of people nowadays who stan specific people. And I think nowadays because it looks so weird to other people, there's a sense that like now they dress it up. We're like, oh, well, I just think he's innocent. That's the only reason I think he's really hot. And it's like, yes. But I think it's still hybristophilia if I'm saying that right. Yeah, it's odd. And also it's immoral to plot to kill your husband. Remember that.

[00:44:12] You don't have to tell me. I just want to make sure, you know. I know I was criticizing you about the cane train, but I'm not about. Have my reasons. I'm not about to throw you under the cane train. Have my reasons. But also to do it in this particular way is especially stupid because I don't think I'm giving away any secrets. Whenever you communicate with an inmate, it is in some way recorded or noted. I want to know what true crime thing this woman was into.

[00:44:41] What led her down this path? You know, whose podcast did this? We need to find out. I want to know. I'm nosy. Can you imagine? I would feel so bad if someone was like, yeah, Anya and Kevin, someone was listening to your podcast, fell in love with a criminal and then tried to plot to do murder. I'd be like, well, that sucks. Like what? And certainly the host of the podcast would never do that. No, of course.

[00:45:12] Just so you know that. You know, we've talked about a lot of husbands plotting against their wives. And I've never been so cagey as you are with me right now. Well, you described, oh, yeah, looking out the window fantasizing about killing your husband. Just something about your tone. Got a dreamy look in my eyes. I just want to check in. Thinking about all the insults about cereal that I've had to endure on this program. Flashing before my eyes. That's what you do when you check in. You make sure everything is okay. It's all solid, babe.

[00:45:42] That's right. It's all fine. Excuse me while I buy a bunch of credits for somebody I want to talk to in jail. So, yeah, but it's actually just, honestly, I want to do something about, at some point, I want to do something. There are so many instances that I see everywhere where I think that certain corners of the true crime sector or whatever you want to call it are actually driving people mad. I've seen stuff. I've seen things. And I think it's terrible.

[00:46:11] I think we should be focusing on trying to educate people, tell stories. I think all that's fine. I don't think true crime is inherently immoral. But I also think that we are going down a dark path if some random ladies listen into the podcast and then getting so into somebody that she's, you know, thinking about killing her nice ghost hunter husband. Like, literally, just get a divorce. What's wrong with you? What is wrong with people? Yeah.

[00:46:38] I'm glad they busted her before she was able to harm him. I don't know. Who knows? I mean, do we know if the inmate she was talking to, did he, like, snitch her out or did he, like? Again, all these communications are monitored. We've all followed the Delphi case. Certainly, every communication that Richard Allen, every phone call he had with his wife where he repeatedly confessed to the murders, all of those are monitored and recorded.

[00:47:05] We recently, in our reporting on that case, as you may or may not know, we emailed Kagan Klein and our back and forth with him was recorded by authorities and ended up being included in a court filing. When you're communicating with someone behind bars, there's no expectation of privacy. No. No. And you would think people would realize that, but people keep on saying wild stuff. But, yeah. Gosh. Well.

[00:47:35] So I've covered all the cases. You did it. It's time for you to bring us home. No. Well, we have a book coming out. August. Pre-order. Giving your whistle stop speech. Links in. In the back of the train. I can't do it. You know, can I just say something? And everyone's going to be like, oh, gosh.

[00:48:05] You know what my speech should be, like, modeled off of? Because Kevin and I laugh about this all the time. I don't know why. We just think. You know what I'm going to talk about. You know what I'm going to talk about. We think about this on a monthly basis for some reason. So before he left Springfield, Illinois to go to the White House, Abraham Lincoln famously gave a speech before getting on a train and leaving. And it's, like, the weirdest speech ever. It's basically like, all right, bye, everybody.

[00:48:33] Like, what did he say? Like, it was such a morose, weird speech. He said, well, I liked you guys a lot. You know what? I'm going somewhere. I may not come back alive. Well, no. Didn't he say something like, none of you know how I feel? None of you know how I feel. Bye. And you just imagine everyone standing there afterwards being like, what was that? It was not like a triumphant, all right, we're going to do great things, America. It was like, none of you know how I feel. Goodbye. And I think I should just start ending every episode with that.

[00:49:03] But anyways, this train thing, this train thing, what are you doing to me? Do I need to make up some ridiculous bit where, like, I saddle that with you and then everyone's talking about you on, I can't even. See, you've tried and you've failed because they don't sound realistic. No, it's because. Anybody can imagine you with your little engineer's outfit blowing your little train whistle. What the hell is wrong with you? That doesn't feel like me. What does that mean? You're so.

[00:49:30] It's because I respect my husband and speak to him respectfully on our program that we share. And you're over there having weird fantasies about me being a train conductor slash engineer slash serial heister. Yes. It's just wild. All of it seems realistic to our audience. Oh my God. But do your whistle stop speech. Bring us home. Well, we have shirts also if you want to buy some. You can buy them and they're in the show notes.

[00:49:59] The link's in the show notes and they're nice shirts and, you know, we're just living life. Just living life and the book's going to come out in August. I think I said that already, but it's going to be about Delphi and it's, you know, just finishing up right now and finishing it up along with my last bit of sanity. Our Patreons are going to get this episode immediately, but if you are listening to this as part of our podcast feed, I think by the time you hear this, the book will be done and

[00:50:28] have been the final draft submitted to our publisher. Yeah, but no pressure, right? Yeah, it better be. That's all I'll say. It better be. That's all I'm going to say. Slamming down my pen. Yeah, Anya certainly fills me with confidence. You know what? I trusted you to take me on a safe journey. What? Of this train. What are you talking about? Why is everything a train? When's the last time you've even been on a train? Oh, I've been on trains. Yeah.

[00:50:57] Last time we went on a train and we really should, we're tiring the patience of everybody. I'm sorry. The last time we were on a train is when we went on an ill-conceived murder mystery train ride together. Oh yeah, that was ridiculous. But I guess we were on the metro in DC. Oh, that's not a train. Okay. But I will say this. I always have dreamed of going on one of those fancy old-timey trains, like Murder on the

[00:51:26] Orient Express, like that kind of stuff. That's one of my dreams. I don't think they exist. See, if people can tell that, which makes them accept my rendition. People can tell that? How can anyone tell that? You're always talking about trains on the show. I'm not talking about the trains. No, hit the button. Hit the button. Jeez Louise. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:51:54] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:52:23] We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:52:50] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:53:18] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have. Yeah.

[00:53:47] And deservedly so. Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[00:54:17] I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[00:54:46] There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince.com slash msheet. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T. So Anya, before we let people go, I wanted to talk again about the Silver Linings Handbook. And more specifically, I want to talk about Jason Blair, because certainly there have been

[00:55:16] times when something happens and we don't know what to do. We're just out here rubbing two sticks together and we need to turn to somebody for advice. I'm sure everybody's had that experience. We need to turn to somebody for advice. And one of the people we turn to most often is Jason Blair. And he's always been there for us. He's always willing to give you time. He's always willing to give you great advice.

[00:55:40] And so now what's wonderful is that everybody within this Sound of My Voice has access to his insights and his compassion and his advice because you can find all of that on his podcast. Yeah, this podcast is a bit like being able to sort of sit down and sort of hear some interesting insights. I always feel inspired by it. He's had on some really incredible guests recently, and they've had just such like heartbreaking,

[00:56:07] real conversations with people like Jim Schmidt, who his daughter, Gabby Petito, was murdered. Jim just came across just as such a real and empathetic and wonderful human being. He was even given one of Jason's friends kind of told him recently about some abuse she had suffered. Jim was giving advice. I mean, it was really incredible. I'm thinking of Kimberly Loring. Her sister went missing in Montana. It's another case involving a Native woman.

[00:56:33] So raising awareness about that, talking to the woman who lost her father, who was a Los Angeles Police Department detective. He was murdered so he couldn't testify at a robbery trial. Just like awful stuff. But ultimately, really focusing on the compassion and allowing people the space to tell their stories. I think Jason shines as an interviewer because he has that natural empathy and curiosity, too. Whenever I'm thinking of a question like, oh, I hope they get into this, he's asking it two seconds later.

[00:57:02] So it's a really enjoyable listening experience. And I feel like whenever we listen to it, you and I end up discussing some deep stuff like religion or what kind of positivity we want to share with the world. So I think if you're looking for that and you're looking to have those kind of thought provoking conversations in your life, this is the show for you. 100%. So I would just say that if you're interested, subscribe to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.