The Cheat Sheet: Deals and Dismissals

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[00:02:15] including the murder of a child. Today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be revisiting a few cases that we've covered before. We're going to be talking about a number of high-profile cases as well, and one of those is something we've never talked about before

[00:02:29] and should make for an interesting discussion even though it's not about a homicide. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:02:42] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet, Deals and Dismissals. So, Anya, where did you want to begin? Let's start with the deal.

[00:03:41] So we have been covering a case out of Wisconsin. It's a case of Stephen James Weiss. And he is a man who is accused of a litany of really horrific non-contact sexual sort of offenses.

[00:03:58] What I mean by that is, you know, having a trove of disturbing child sexual abuse materials, having put cameras in the bathrooms at his workplace at a hospital, and filming women, you know, going to the restroom. Just really sick, disturbing stuff.

[00:04:19] And he was caught. He was hit with like 100 charges. Well, someone who's been following the case who's local to this reached out to us recently and said that there has been a plea deal.

[00:04:32] And it looks like when I count it – I'm very bad at numbers so I apologize if this is slightly wrong – but slightly over 30 charges he basically pled no contest to. I think it was 32 in total. And the remaining ones, again, there were like 100, have been dropped.

[00:04:52] So people locally are pretty upset about this because they feel like it's an indication that he is going to receive lenient treatment. And given that Weiss apparently does not have a criminal background, you know, this could be perceived as a first offense.

[00:05:08] He may not end up going away for that long. So this is a concern of people. And I think that's understandable. The sentencing hearing is currently scheduled for August 19th, 2024 at 830. Judge Ryan J. Hetzel will, I guess, make some sort of ruling.

[00:05:27] There has been a pre-sentence investigation ordered. So that will look into, you know, sort of mitigating factors and then factors that – now – this is embarrassing. We're recording so I forget the actual word for it. Mitigating and what's the other one? Aggravating. Aggravating. How aggravating that I forgot that.

[00:05:47] So this is something I think is really interesting because we talked on our show and we reported extensively on the case of Kagan Klein in Miami County, Indiana, where the prosecutor's office there, just a great team all around, led by Jeff Sienkiewicz.

[00:06:07] But of course, also including the two attorneys on that case, Jennifer Kiefer and Courtney Allwine. They were able to successfully charge Kagan Klein with a lot of different offenses, and he will be locked up for decades as a result of this.

[00:06:22] That's not always the case with these non-contact sexual offenses. Although from my anecdata of just hearing from people, I think these are cases that people feel very strongly about that should be punished more.

[00:06:34] Even if somebody is not physically assaulting a person, the breach of trust by some of these non-contact sexual offenses and the sort of seemingly the extent of recidivism with them makes people feel like this person should not be in our community anymore.

[00:06:52] I don't hear the same thing about selling weed or something like that. But I do hear a lot about especially CSAM issues. So it's a hot button topic. I'll be curious to see what the judge does. And I understand the concern.

[00:07:10] I wish that more prosecutors' offices, frankly, around the country would study what they did in Miami County because I think that is like a textbook case of how you deal with an offender who is out of control with this stuff, is victimizing people.

[00:07:26] The extent of the victimization is off the charts in terms of number of people affected and what they've been doing. I think that should be a textbook case. Courtney Allwine did an incredible job with that case.

[00:07:39] And then Jen Kiefer, she wrote what we refer to as the Kiefer memo, making arguments for why the sentence should be really extensive and long. And if I remember right, it was our discussion of the Kiefer memo which led us to expose your proclivity for stealing cereal.

[00:07:56] Oh, my gosh. You owe that to Jennifer Kiefer. This is Jen Kiefer's fault is what you're saying? Yes, if not for her. Wow. She exposed you. Enemies forever. No, I think that's your fault, Kevin, because you like to ridicule your wife in public.

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[00:11:11] What do you think? Am I being too carceral here, or do you think a lot of people would like to see these offenses punished severely? I think people would like to see these offenses punished severely.

[00:11:27] I'm not going to say, oh yeah, people don't care about these offenses at all. Obviously, people care deeply about these offenses. Also, people among the general public, plea bargains tend to be unpopular. Yes, and I disagree with that. I think plea bargains are crucial.

[00:11:45] I don't think our criminal justice system would work if everything went to trial. I think plea bargains – and this is not popular because, again, people equate plea bargains with going easy on offenders.

[00:11:58] And I certainly understand if you're the victim of an offense or if someone you love is the victim of an offense why you would feel that way. But I think for the general public, we need to understand that it doesn't necessarily mean you're going easy on someone.

[00:12:11] And it locks down an outcome for the prosecution. And for the defense, it locks down an outcome that their client can live with. So I think it works, that sort of negotiation. I think that's an important thing that should not be necessarily maligned.

[00:12:26] There are specific plea deals that I think you can look at and say what the heck was everyone thinking here or this is way too lenient or whatnot. And I think it's a case-by-case basis.

[00:12:37] So I think what they're hoping for in Wisconsin, at least in this community that was affected by this man, is that the sentences will be consecutive rather than concurrent on these 30 or so charges.

[00:12:51] So the difference would be if you have concurrent sentences essentially for charges, you're going to be knocking two charges out in a year. Like they run side by side. Concurrent is better for the defendant. Consecutive means one after another.

[00:13:10] So you serve your five years, then you serve your six years, then you serve your five years. So you end up in prison for a lot longer. Did I get that right? After I messed up aggravating, I don't have any confidence anymore in this episode.

[00:13:23] My brain is gone. It's not good. But my heart goes out to the people in Wisconsin who are affected by this and who kind of are concerned now. I'm sure we'll hear about it, but we won't really know more until August. Yes.

[00:13:38] I assume we will update the case then. Yep. Well, let's move on to another update. My sources for this are ABC News, the national organization, and also the local affiliate ABC News Forsman all over this story. I think sometimes even those of us who follow True Crime…

[00:14:02] True Crime? Is that like our mountaineering podcast? I think sometimes even those of us who follow True Crime tend to think things that aren't always so. Sometimes when we hear news of an arrest, maybe there's a part of us that thinks, okay, story over. It's been solved.

[00:14:25] And that's not always the case. I say that in particular because I'm referring to a case we covered back in January on an episode of Cheat Sheet where Megan and Victor Turner were charged with killing five-year-old Justin Turner back in 1989. These were the parents of Justin Turner.

[00:14:52] And at that time, you can go back and listen if you want, but essentially there were suggestions that some incriminating statements had been made, and also there was some circumstantial evidence. And so they were charged with that, and we discussed it at the time.

[00:15:08] But the case went on, and the defense attorney in that case, a man named Sean Kent, worked very hard on their behalf.

[00:15:19] One thing he did that attracted quite a bit of attention is he pointed out that there was an active serial killer who was in the general vicinity at the time of this murder. And so that didn't seem to have been fully investigated at the time.

[00:15:41] Is it possible that this person was actually the culprit?

[00:15:46] And this certainly reminds me of something we've seen in the Delphi case, which is it turns out – this is not reassuring – but it turns out that at virtually any place in this country, there always seems to be really bad people around who are capable of doing terrible things.

[00:16:04] Yeah, that's true. I think people often get overwhelmed by that, by the amount of information around that, and then they kind of…

[00:16:12] So just because you say, okay, something bad happened and look, there was a serial killer or whatever nearby, that doesn't mean that that serial killer did it, because there was no shortage of bad people around who are capable of doing things.

[00:16:26] I'm not as familiar with this case as you are. I'm going to say my hackles go up, because it's like, do we want Henry Lee Lucas? Because this is how we get Henry Lee Lucas.

[00:16:35] I was in town at the time, and I'm a serial killer, so obviously I did it. Give me information putting someone at the scene. Give me information that the person has confessed later on or made incriminating statements.

[00:16:49] I need more than geographical proximity in the vaguest sense of living in the area at the time. That means nothing to me. So that's my take. That's my hot take.

[00:17:03] I'm not saying this is irrelevant, and I don't know what the case against the parents was, but I just… We need to put a moratorium on this random serial killer did X because he happened to be living in the same area at the time until…

[00:17:17] Like, that's just not enough anymore. And I wanted to mention that because it is an element of the story that's gotten some attention.

[00:17:27] But in fairness, the real meat of the argument this attorney made was that all of the evidence, all of the circumstantial evidence, all of this was in the hands of the state decades ago. Again, this is a crime that happened back in 1989.

[00:17:47] And so he is saying, if you had this evidence decades ago and you wanted to make a case, you should have made the case then. This is not new evidence.

[00:17:59] And he also pointed out that because of this delay, a number of the people to whom the parents are alleged to have made incriminating statements, a number of those people have passed away. Wow. Okay. So they can't even face their accusers then?

[00:18:14] So there can't be a cross-examination situation. And so this was an argument that the judge in the case found persuasive, and he said, this case, they waited too long.

[00:18:28] They should have filed it at a time when the defendants would have had more of an opportunity to challenge the case. There's nothing new here. Maybe there's some new interpretations of evidence, but there's really nothing new.

[00:18:45] And so for that reason, the judge dismissed the case and said that these people can't be prosecuted for this murder ever. Wow. So he dismissed it. So basically, even though the trial did not occur, it's essentially a double jeopardy situation almost? Almost.

[00:19:03] That seems a little bizarre to me, honestly. I mean, I agree with throwing it out based on saying, hey, this is not fresh. But if they turn around and confess tomorrow, I don't know. That seems a little bit interesting that he went that route.

[00:19:20] And it also is interesting in this that a lot of people who have seen this case wrote and asked me, does this mean that these parents have been exonerated? Does this mean that they are innocent? And it doesn't. It doesn't mean they're guilty. It doesn't mean they're innocent.

[00:19:44] It means basically that the judge says the process isn't fair. They waited too long so that there's no real ability to fairly assess the evidence and come to a conclusion.

[00:19:57] And along those lines, I think it's important to stress another thing we sometimes forget is it's not the role of a jury or the judicial process to ever declare anyone innocent. That's not what criminal trials are about.

[00:20:13] In a criminal trial, it is the state trying to prove that a person has done things that rise to the level of being found guilty of something. So they are trying to offer proof to get the defendant to that point.

[00:20:31] And if they fail in that, the jury says they're not guilty. They don't say they're innocent. They're just saying the state has failed to prove its case. So no one is ever found innocent in a court of law. Does that make sense? That makes a lot of sense.

[00:20:46] And I think that's an important thing to stress because it gets at what the criminal justice system is for and how it works. You're not – yeah. I mean my question for you is this, just bluntly. Do you think it was a good case against these parents?

[00:20:59] Based on what you saw, obviously we're not seeing all the case files, but just from what was outlined that you saw. Yeah. You thought it was a good case? I thought it was a good case. We covered it in January in some detail.

[00:21:11] It was a pretty solid circumstantial case there. Yeah. That's what I thought too. I would have liked to have seen it brought to a jury.

[00:21:20] But at the same time, if elements of it can't be challenged because the people have died, maybe they should have brought this a lot earlier.

[00:21:29] I feel bad for the current prosecution team because I imagine that the same people were not in charge back then and so it's not as if they were just sitting on it and procrastinating.

[00:21:39] But yeah, it seems like – I would be curious to know why behind the scenes things did not roll sooner decades earlier. And what do you make of – There was an attempt apparently to charge the mother back in 1990 and that was unsuccessful at that time.

[00:21:58] I guess they can afford pretty good lawyers. I think the defense attorney should be commended. He obviously did a good job getting it tossed and making good arguments around that.

[00:22:09] I do question the judge making it a permanent thing, but I guess there's an element of like I don't want them being harassed in the future.

[00:22:15] But honestly, it sounds like this is one of those ones that will just never go forward because, again, I'm very skeptical of serial killer did it. That's like the dog ate my homework of frigging true crime. I'm sorry.

[00:22:29] I mean sometimes it's going to be a serial killer, but oftentimes that is just a convenient scapegoat for a much more commonplace type of crime. Yeah.

[00:22:42] Most of us are more likely to be harmed by the people we've invited into our lives, our family, our friends as opposed to a random serial killer. Yeah. And I think that's – I mean that's really important to stress.

[00:22:56] Now, serial killer crimes are very interesting because – and they also present something interesting for an audience to contemplate because there's a feeling, especially in a serial killer case where they're targeting just random people. There's a feeling like that could happen to me.

[00:23:11] I could be doing nothing wrong and then someone comes along and does something like that. And that's very scary. So I understand why they're – I mean I find them fascinating. So I'm not saying people shouldn't be interested in them.

[00:23:23] I think a lot of evidence should be stacking before we start saying a serial killer did anything. And it really – we need more than just another serial killer was operating in the same city.

[00:23:36] It really takes to me like signatures at the crime scene, a modus operandi, information that would put the person at the scene. I don't know. That's just my serial killer rant. Should we talk about one case – another case that's not a serial killer?

[00:23:57] And unfortunately, we have a lot of information although ultimately nothing more will be done most likely. Please do. Okay. So this is the case that you've probably heard about of Gabby Petito. Very sad and upsetting case. More information has kind of come to light recently.

[00:24:15] So I wanted to talk about it. So to recap if you're not familiar with the case, Gabrielle Petito or Gabby as she was known was a 22-year-old woman. She went on a van life trip with her fiancé Brian Laundrie starting on July 2nd, 2021.

[00:24:35] So like a young couple going around the United States in their van. She disappeared on August 27th. And then he reappeared at his home in Florida and refused to answer questions about where she was. And then he goes missing.

[00:24:52] So her remains were found in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest on September 19th. She died of blunt force injuries and was strangled. On October 20th, Brian was found dead by suicide via gunshot in the Myakahatchee Creek Environmental Park in Florida.

[00:25:14] And he admitted to killing her in a notebook page found with him. So this is a horrifying situation. While Gabby was missing, it really gripped the nation. People really wanted to know what happened to her.

[00:25:27] There was discussion that this was an example of missing white woman syndrome where, you know, sort of a pretty white woman goes missing and people become obsessed with it. I think that's fair.

[00:25:37] But I also think her story has really resonated with people who have survived domestic abuse, domestic violence, emotional abuse.

[00:25:45] And just the idea that this young girl with her whole life ahead of her went out on something that should have been fun with someone who should have been there to protect her, someone who was supposed to have loved her and never came back.

[00:25:57] I think that is also why that story blew up. So I think there's that too. And that's fair. What I'm going to be talking about comes from the FBI vault, along with some information from the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

[00:26:11] And again, if you are experiencing domestic violence or someone you know is, call the hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or text START to 88788. It's very important. As we talked about before, you are in so much more danger from people you actually know than strangers.

[00:26:32] And sometimes you need some help and that's an organization that can get you the resources if you're in the United States.

[00:26:39] So one of the things the FBI posted on their site, they posted all this evidence that they gathered in the case that, of course, since Laundrie is dead, will never go forward.

[00:26:48] This is a letter that really made me sad to read from Gabby to Brian prior to their van life trip. And we're going to talk about sort of some of the things it indicates, but I'm going to read it now. So, quote,

[00:27:30] So you in pain is killing me. I'm not trying to be negative, but I'm frustrated there's not more I can do.

[00:27:37] You know, as soon as we're unpacked and I come back from New York City and I come back from New York and quarantine myself, I'm going to come work with you because there's not much ever here.

[00:27:46] And we can work on the van together and they are our dreams now. So I hope you understand when I'm upset it's because I love you too much. Now stop crying and come home and say you love me with a big hug. It just makes me sad.

[00:28:01] So some things that stand out to me, the fact that he was calling her names seemingly not in like a fun bantery way, but in a more concerning way where it was upsetting her and she's asking him to stop doing it.

[00:28:15] She's taking the blame for stuff like I can be a child. Sorry for getting upset over a dumb piece of paper. We don't know what that's about or what what she's referring to there, but she's kind of saying. I'm making you act this way in some way.

[00:28:31] She's yeah, it seems like I don't know whenever I read hers, like read about her or watch the body cam video with her in it where they were pulled over by a police officer and there's some sort of incident going on. My heart goes out to her.

[00:28:49] I mean, she was so young and she just seemed like a really nice kid. And there seems to have been subtle red flags in this relationship.

[00:28:58] I think when people think about domestic violence, they think about really intensive cases where there's overt physical violence constantly and it can start out with more things along the lines of emotional abuse.

[00:29:13] And that should be talked about, too, because people who are in it, especially young people where it's maybe one of their first big relationships, they may not have the knowledge or the skill sets. And and frankly, a lot of older people may not either.

[00:29:27] It's not been something that's been talked about until quite recently, at least in the widespread culture. And so. I personally think we all need to do more with education. I think we need to do more with education in true crime.

[00:29:42] I think we also just in the general, you know, teaching kids from an early age about respecting boundaries, about not not being controlling, about recognizing the signs of something that's not right.

[00:29:56] And kind of getting out of there about you deserve to be treated with respect and not controlled and not made to feel bad about yourself constantly. That's not what a partner should be doing. And.

[00:30:10] Yeah, it's just it's just something I don't think it's talked about a lot, but this is kind of a case that really shows.

[00:30:17] Why it should be, because I think people have told the media that laundry could be subtly controlling like it was not something that others would have necessarily recognized unless they were very close to the situation.

[00:30:30] And oftentimes when you're the victim in that situation, you're not necessarily telling everybody because you're made to feel isolated. It's like, yeah, you know, you're kind of stuck.

[00:30:42] But I think I wanted to read out some red flags listed by the National Domestic Violence Hotline about signs of emotional abuse, because this I think this is something you can take to the young people in your life.

[00:30:56] If you have kids or if you're, you know, you're an aunt and uncle. Talk to them about this because it really could save them from a very bad situation.

[00:31:07] And if we if we drill this into kids early, then they can have the tools and the equipment to recognize a bad situation and take action accordingly and feel empowered to do so. So here are the red flags. Quote, your partner name calls you or demeans you.

[00:31:26] Your partner tries to control you, your time and your actions. Your partner tells you what to do and what to wear. Your partner often makes you feel silly or dumb. Your partner questions your reality and says things that you know happened didn't happen. This is called gaslighting.

[00:31:43] Your partner is critical of your appearance. Your partner is jealous of time spent with your friends or family. Your partner punishes you by withholding attention or affection. Your partner doesn't want you hanging out with someone of another gender.

[00:31:53] Your partner makes threats to hurt you or others to get what they want. Your partner wants you to ask for permission before doing something or spending time with other people. Your partner monitors where you go and stalks your whereabouts. Your partner doesn't want you to work.

[00:32:08] Your partner embarrasses you in public. Your partner does not trust you and acts possessive of you. Your partner threatens breaking up or divorce to manipulate an argument. Your partner wants access to your phone, your passwords or your social media. Your partner threatens suicide during arguments.

[00:32:22] Your partner is constantly accusing you of cheating. Your partner blames you for their unhealthy or abusive behaviors. Your partner makes you feel guilty or immature for not wanting to have sex. Your partner overloads you with compliments and gifts and then uses them to get what they want.

[00:32:37] Your partner is a victim of sexual harassment. Your partner is a victim of extreme sex. Your partner overloads you with compliments and gifts, and then uses that to manipulate you later. Love bombing. So that is a pretty good, comprehensive overview of different types of emotional abuse tactics.

[00:32:55] Obviously in every situation it's going to be different. It's not going to be all of that at once necessarily, but hopefully this makes people aware that these are some things you should watch out for.

[00:33:06] and that we can help, especially young people, be familiar with so that they can know that that's not normal and somebody should not be treating them that way. It just breaks my heart for how alone Gabby must have felt through this and what her family has gone

[00:33:26] through since in sort of the search for her and losing her in this way. It's just heartbreaking all around. So hopefully this is a helpful discussion about what to watch out for and

[00:33:39] what we can be aware of all together. Very well said. Thank you for highlighting all of that. So are we ready to go to Atlanta? Let's go to Atlanta. And before I get into this,

[00:33:58] I wanted to mention that some of the sources we used for this are Billboard.com, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the ABA Journal, the American Bar Association Journal. So we went right to the top. And then also there is a blog called AboveTheLaw.com,

[00:34:21] which we also consulted on this. So this is about a case going on in Atlanta that is not a murder case. And it's a complicated case. And if there's interest, maybe at some point

[00:34:39] we can do an episode just dealing with the case because it raises to my mind a lot of interesting legal questions, including some of the potential evidence in the cases like song lyrics. I mean,

[00:34:52] what do we think? Oh, no, no, no, no. What do we think about that? Thumbs down from me. No. So this is the case of a man named Young Thug who is accused of being part

[00:35:10] of a street gang called YSL. And so the people in Atlanta are saying, you act like this is a record label. It's actually a gang that's used to commit criminal acts. It's kind of like a

[00:35:21] conspiracy type of trial. And it's a very, very complicated case, as I say. And the judge who is in charge is a man named Judge Ural Glanville. And he's been doing some odd things. He's been

[00:35:38] doing some odd things since the beginning of this case. And this case has been going on for a while because it took months and months and months even to seat a jury. And the reason for that is because

[00:35:52] the case is so complicated and involves so many moving pieces that it was recognized this is going to be a really long trial. And most people are not in a position in life where they can give up

[00:36:08] months and months of time to go to court and sit on a jury. Most of us are not blessed to have a situation like that. Most of us have jobs. Most of us have health concerns. Most of us have children

[00:36:21] that we have to take care of, things of that nature. So it was very difficult to find a jury. And in fact, some of the, I might say, eccentricities of this judge came out early

[00:36:36] on because one person, one juror didn't show up when they were supposed to. There's a potential juror who thought she had communicated some things to the judge that she didn't, apparently, at least not to his satisfaction. And so her punishment was that she had to write a 30-page

[00:36:55] essay in proper academic form about the importance of the jury system. What? Yeah, Anya is making a face at me. That's a little bit draconian in my view. It's a little odd. Especially in light of it being a mistake. I mean, if someone wasn't taking it seriously,

[00:37:13] then I get being frustrated. I got being frustrated on the part of the judge, but I feel like that seems a little bit weird. I guess is the technical term. We can go on and on. There's another instance during the course of all of this where a defense

[00:37:31] lawyer was late to court and the judge got upset and said, your punishment is you have to buy us all chicken wings for lunch. Okay, that's kind of funny, but... And the chicken wings came from a local strip club that's apparently very well known in the area.

[00:37:48] I mean, I think that's kind of funny, but I mean... So you're against the 30-page paper, but you're all for the strip club chicken? Hey, anything that gets everybody chicken wings, I'm all about. No, I mean, in fairness... I guess that supports the local business.

[00:38:00] It supports the local business. That's more like fun, but I think you're setting up a concerning pattern in light of what has happened recently around strange punishments. Yes. So I think my opinion may change there.

[00:38:20] So the reason I'm talking about this is we cover, as you all are well aware, we cover the Richard Allen case that's going on in Delphi, Indiana, and there's all sorts of allegations being made by the defense team that the judge is

[00:38:38] really messing things up, the judge is screwing up, the judge is biased... Which frankly people kind of swallow hook, line, and sinker because the media runs quotes from people who barely know the case saying, oh, it's a legal disaster. Okay.

[00:38:52] So this has me curious. So I'm trying to find cases across the country where it looks like maybe a judge really is no doubt about it messing up and... What does that look like?

[00:39:05] What does that look like? And how does the local bar react? Because you would think if a judge in a major case was out of control and biased, members of the bar would speak up. So in this case,

[00:39:23] there was an important witness, and it turns out that this witness and the judge and the prosecutor had some sort of ex parte meeting in the judge's chamber that the defense team wasn't aware of. And that's bad. Yes.

[00:39:48] If only to create a record, the defense team needs to be aware of secret meetings between witnesses and judges. Yes. What's going on? Also, you shouldn't be meeting with witnesses in secret ex parte as a judge, right? I mean... Yes.

[00:40:06] Okay. Can I get my crime, my mob example or do you want me to save that? Give your mob example. So my understanding is that sometimes in mob cases, which are also often racketeering cases,

[00:40:20] there's a sense that a lawyer might be mobbed up, part of the mob essentially, and therefore not necessarily representing the interest of their client, more of representing the interest of the mob. In some cases, like extreme cases like that,

[00:40:35] judges can essentially appoint counsel that are going to more vigorously help somebody make a plea deal or give information in exchange for leniency, things like that. So that would be an instance where you want to maybe cut out an attorney.

[00:40:53] But my understanding is that is a very, very, very high bar to cross and you want to have that done in a specific way so that it's not harmful to the person's rights. Yes. And also, that's usually a good thing to do.

[00:41:09] Yes. And also, that's usually done where it's like the defendant in a case is represented by a mob lawyer and the defendant wants to flip and testify against the mob and is scared to—

[00:41:21] It's like, please get me out of here as opposed to like, I love my lawyer. And this is a case where it is a witness. This guy wasn't on trial. It's difficult to imagine a good reason for this ex parte communication to happen.

[00:41:38] The defense team should have been notified. I'm not sure why they weren't. Baffling. So the defense team, through some manner unknown, at least as of now unknown, the defense lawyer finds out about this secret ex parte meeting. And so in open court,

[00:41:58] basically says to the judge, why'd you do that? And the judge's response is, I'm not going to answer that. You tell me how you found out about it because you have no business knowing about such things. Oh my gosh.

[00:42:13] And the lawyer wouldn't give him the source that told him about the meeting. And so the judge ordered the defense lawyer to be tossed in jail for, I believe, was it like 10 days or something for contempt. Like spend like the next 10 weekends in jail for contempt because

[00:42:36] you're not answering my questions. And meanwhile, the judge is not offering any explanations of his own for why this took place. That is nuts. That is nuts. And the defense bar in Georgia where this happened is outraged by this.

[00:42:55] I think a couple of dozen defense attorneys have offered to represent the attorney in this case. They're saying this judge needs to come off this trial. They're saying this is basically guaranteeing a mistrial for this very long and complicated case. And so this is clearly

[00:43:12] misbehavior on the part of a judge. And when this is seen, other attorneys are really speaking up a lot. Well, I mean, that's just overtly baffling. It's like you'd rather punish somebody for questioning your behavior that frankly needs

[00:43:30] to be explained rather than explain your behavior that needs to be explained. I mean, listen, I'm not a lawyer. Maybe there's some excellent reason that this secret meeting took place. But guess what doesn't exactly engender confidence about that? Jailing anybody who questions it.

[00:43:50] That kind of makes me feel like there is no good explanation. It's really... And can I just say, can I just go off? So Jeffrey Williams, aka Young Thug, I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of the case. It could be that there's a very

[00:44:06] good racketeering charge here and the prosecution is onto something. But I think it is really ridiculous to use rap lyrics in a case to prove anything unless the rap lyrics amount to knowledge of a crime that only the killer could have possessed. Something

[00:44:27] to that effect. Only the killer would have known this and it's really outlined here and it's essentially a confession. I can understand that in rap lyrics or any song lyrics. But having the rap lyrics be like, oh, they're talking about guns or violence. I mean, what the...

[00:44:45] I mean, that's like going after Bobby Darin for Mack the Knife or something. He was singing about the cement bag and, oh, you know, five will get you ten, old Mackie's back in town. He must know something about what the mob's doing and they're disposing bodies.

[00:45:00] You know, leave Bobby Darin alone. If it's a good case, you don't need somebody holding a gun in a music video. I mean, it's art. It's artistry. There are themes of violence in many forms of art and just kind of vague allusions to killing people and guns

[00:45:24] is an evidence. You know, would we go after Stephen King? Oh, you know, you might have something to do with these clown murders because you seem to know a lot about that, sir. I mean,

[00:45:35] I'm sorry. I feel like there's, you know, I frankly feel like there's a weird racist undertone here because it's a predominantly Black African-American art form and there's this presumption of like, this means something that's not applied to all the rock and roll

[00:45:53] songs about sex. No one's going and saying, well, these guys must be sexual predators. Am I crazy? Am I losing my mind? You seem to have some strong feelings about this. So maybe

[00:46:03] if there's interest, we can consider covering it. I mean, I don't know. I just think that you shouldn't need that. Like, go with the evidence that it's a, you know, it's racket. I mean,

[00:46:13] I'm not defending them. Maybe it is. But that is just weak when prosecutors do that. And we've seen it again and again, I think in Georgia as well. There's like, let's throw in these rap

[00:46:26] lyrics or let's throw in the fact that this guy was in a music video with a gun. That's not unless there's some specificity to what we're talking about. That does nothing for me.

[00:46:34] That's fair. Before we wrap up this session, I just want to say that the attorney in this case who was ordered to spend 10 weekends in jail, a man named Brian Steele, he very smart man. He

[00:46:49] was able to turn this into a moment that I think any defense attorney would dream of. Ordered to spend 10 weekends in jail, he says to the judge, can you at least make sure the jail

[00:47:00] you sent me to is the jail where my client is so the two of us can spend the weekends working on the case? Brilliant. That is pretty clever. That's marketing. That is marketing. And the

[00:47:11] writer in Above the Law says, oh, this guy's going to be Atlanta's attorney of the year. If you can say I went to jail for my client, not because I did anything wrong, but because I asked

[00:47:22] a question and then I hung out with him in jail for 10 weekends, the amount of credibility he gets from that is enormous. If you get in trouble in a Piggly Wiggly in Atlanta, you're going to call

[00:47:38] this guy. What do you mean a Piggly Wiggly? It's a grocery store. I know, but what am I going to do there? Oh, because I'm going to steal the cereal. Yes. OK, well, let's just say this, Kevin. Let's

[00:47:49] just say one of us has has stacked our kitchen counter with with dozens upon heaps upon piles of Old Bay flavored goldfish. So I think when it comes to one of us having a problem with like

[00:48:06] baked snack goods in the grocery, it's not me. And I'd like to see a receipt for those goldfish. I say people absolutely should not eat old bay goldfish crackers unless they want to have a

[00:48:18] refreshing snack with a delicious, spicy taste that will invigorate you and make you feel like a new person. Thanks for our latest sponsor, Old Bay Goldfish. No, I'm just kidding. This is not

[00:48:29] an ad. He's just obsessed with them. It's scary. And I where were we? No, I think this guy, I mean, he deserves to be lauded for it because, I mean, again, there seems to be no real reason

[00:48:42] for why something like this would happen, barring some sort of mob situation, which does not seem to be the case here. So I don't understand why the judge did this. Also, I mean, when you're a judge,

[00:48:54] don't you have to think a little bit strategically? Why would you put someone in jail if it's just going to you know, like it's like he basically gave him a huge boost. Yeah, he shouldn't be.

[00:49:06] He's messed up. I think he should step down. It doesn't seem like this is a fair situation. And when there's questions about like the credibility and can we just go back to the original sentence? Why would a judge do why would they meet with somebody secretly? Like,

[00:49:20] is there any other reason that I'm not thinking of that would be reasonable? I can't think of anything. It's not it's not good. It's not good. It's bad. As bluntly as I say. Yeah. What a mess. I mean,

[00:49:33] and if I were the prosecutor, I'd be furious with him for I mean, because I think I mean, the judge may have botched this, but maybe the prosecutor is doing something bad too. I don't

[00:49:41] know. Before we wrap up, I think you're talking about all of our legal fees for your serial crimes. Legal not legal fees, but all of the money I do a sketchy crowdfunding for it.

[00:49:59] All of my money of ours that I'm pouring into Old Bay Goldfish crackers. And the question in these troubled economic times, is there anything you can invest in that will hold its value? And I was

[00:50:11] wondering, do T shirts hold their value for generations? My gosh, I'm not going to give financial advice to our listeners about T shirts. I think maybe what we should do is I don't know

[00:50:22] if T shirts hold their value. I don't know if they go up in value, decline in value or whatever over the course of generations. But maybe we can do an experiment. OK. Maybe a lot of people can buy

[00:50:34] some T shirts affiliated with a particular podcast, hold on to them for like a century and then see what value they have. A beloved heirloom for their children. Yes. If people wanted to take part in such an experiment, is there is there a way they could do

[00:50:51] it? Well, I think they could probably head to murdersheetshop.com or is that is actually the let me look let me find out our URL. Actually, Jesus, I was rolling there. You just blew it.

[00:51:03] Sorry. You know what? That aggravates me. Yeah. Murdersheetshop.com. You could check out our shirts. They're beautiful and lovely and you're going to look great in them. And and maybe I'm not making any promises, but maybe it'll provide financial stability for your grandchildren.

[00:51:19] Jesus Christ, Kevin, you've gone too far. I think I need to send you to jail on the weekends to sort you out. Also, if you send me to jail, your honor, can I at least have a few dozen bags

[00:51:36] of Old Bay goldfish crackers? I think it would amount to cruel and unusual punishment if I were to send you there without those because I think the the withdrawal would be too much for you at

[00:51:47] this point. You need your spices. You need them. And let me just say the murdersheet T-shirt. It looks great. Lovely colors. It's very you're going to look very cool, but it's also a way

[00:51:57] to signal to people that you like true crime, but you're also very smart. So check it out. Win-win you're going to yeah, it's gonna be fun. And we just want to say sincerely thank you so much to

[00:52:07] everyone who's bought one already. It really helps us out a lot and, you know, keeps T-shirts from taking over our house. No, I'm just kidding. It really it's the support really is very meaningful to both of us. And we really appreciate you spending your hard earned money to

[00:52:22] support us in that way. Keeps the show going, keeps the lights on and murdersheet studios. And so what are you looking at? Murdersheet studios. The murdersheet studios, aka our house. What are you smiling at? So what you're saying we use the proceeds from the shirt to pay our

[00:52:42] electric bill? I meant in a figurative way. Well, thank you all for listening. Let's go have some goldfish. Okay, bye. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:53:03] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for

[00:53:24] records requests, you can do so at www buy me a coffee.com slash murder sheet. We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the

[00:53:39] murder sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:53:53] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.