The Flooded Basement: A Conversation with IGGNite DNA Founders Nancy Landini and Lisa Needler About the Case of Tabetha Murlin and Investigative Genetic Genealogy

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[00:01:42] murder, and rape. No one was living in the house, not anymore. Back in May of 1992, 3512 Reynolds Street was a residence under renovation in the city of Fort Wayne, Indiana. It has since been torn down. In the basement, water had pooled, left over from a flood. Three

[00:02:05] rivers, the St. Mary's, the St. Joseph, and the Maumee flow through Fort Wayne. Parts of the city flood sometimes, and 3512 Reynolds Street wasn't far from the banks of the Maumee. But in that

[00:02:20] basement, there was something far worse than the foot or so of dank, dark water. On May 15, 1992, a construction worker found a body there. In contemporary reporting from the time, the Associated Press reported that the body was so badly decomposed that the then Allen County

[00:02:40] coroner, Philip O'Shaughnessy, said that the person's identity, age, race, and sex were not immediately clear, nor was the cause of death. On Saturday, May 16, 1992, there was an autopsy. Later that day, O'Shaughnessy told the Associated Press more about his findings. He said the body

[00:03:03] belonged to a woman. She was white, probably between 20 and 25. Her hair was blonde or possibly light brown. She was clad in pink Reebok sneakers size 10, a grayish windcrest jacket, a knit-striped shirt, a black bra, white underwear, and black sweatpants. On her neck were two gold necklaces,

[00:03:25] a braided one and one with three tiny stars. She was wrapped in a furniture blanket. One other fact compounded the tragedy. The woman was pregnant when she died, but the cause of her death and

[00:03:37] the death of her unborn child remained unclear. The body was just too decomposed to tell. At the time, O'Shaughnessy came up with a theory of what happened. We think she was trying to keep warm, he told the AP. Unless we have some clues, we'll have an open

[00:03:54] verdict on the cause of death. Regardless of the cause of death, another troubling mystery remained. Who was this woman, dubbed Mary Jane Doe? Today we'll talk with two women who helped give this Doe her name back. We previously had on Ignite DNA founders Nancy Landini and Lisa Kneedler.

[00:04:13] Today they're returned to talk about how they helped crack the case of Tabitha Merlin. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:04:29] interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Flooded Basement, a conversation with Ignite DNA founders Nancy Landini and Lisa Kneedler about the case of Tabitha Merlin and investigative genetic genealogy. Tabitha Ann

[00:05:31] Merlin, whose maiden name was Slane, would have been 23 on May 15, 1992. She was born in California, although she was raised in Fort Wayne since she was a baby. She was adopted by an aunt.

[00:05:45] She was married to a man named Jerry Merlin, but they broke up in 1989. Police now believe she died somewhere between late 1990 and early 1992. It is not clear whether or not she was the victim of a crime. As Coroner O'Shaughnessy speculated, she may have hidden in the house

[00:06:04] and died of exposure. The reason we know these biographical details is thanks to investigative genetic genealogy. This refers to the practice of using genetic data and DNA matches in order to link names with suspects in criminal cases or unidentified remains. IGG has ushered in a new

[00:06:24] era of possibility surrounding finding solutions to cold cases. Organizations like the DNA Doe Project have risen up to utilize this technique to help unidentified John and Jane Does reclaim their names. And that's exactly what happened in the Merlin case. Now we'll talk to Lisa and

[00:06:42] Nancy about how they helped piece this mystery together. So we're going to ask you about the Tabitha Ann Merlin case in a moment. Before we get started with this, I'd love to know a little

[00:06:53] bit more about IGNITE DNA. You both mentioned you're coming from, you know, sort of a DNA Doe Project background. Tell us about how you get this firm started and, you know, what it's been like

[00:07:03] to spin off almost and sort of found IGNITE DNA and sort of what your mission is. We met at, through our University of New Haven program for forensic investigative genetic genealogy, and then interned together at DNA Doe Project, ended up staying on with them as volunteers.

[00:07:19] As we were progressing along, you know, doing our work with DNA Doe Project, several of our colleagues had decided to sort of start their own organizations so that they could do more law enforcement work. So DNA Doe Project only does unidentified human remains. That's it.

[00:07:39] Those remains, once identified, could lead into a criminal investigation if the death wasn't natural, but we don't pursue it past that. All we do is identify the individual. And our goal, their

[00:07:54] mission, is to restore the names to the unnamed and make sure that they, the families, if they're still living, have answers. But we, you know, we love doing that work, but we also wanted to get

[00:08:07] involved in the other side of things and being able to do more cold case work on the criminal side, either still identifying unidentified individuals, but also working with evidence and identifying suspects. And so the decision to start IGNITE came from, you know, sort of wanting to broaden

[00:08:26] our horizons and do more criminal work. And really spread the word for what this process is. There's still a lot of education. There are some really great educators out there, but we like to continue to talk to people and help them understand how this can resolve sexual assault

[00:08:46] cases, homicide cases, as well as unidentified human remains. So this process, it's kind of a passion within us. We all in the UNH program all kind of had this want to learn and this drive,

[00:09:02] but there were just a few of us then that stayed on with DNA Doe Project that had this real passion then to take it to the next level. And Nancy and I work very well together. And it kind of just seemed

[00:09:14] to make a lot of sense to try to do this together instead of each of us all on our own. But it's been, it's been a lot of fun and there's been a lot of frustrations because, you know, essentially

[00:09:28] you're cold calling on agencies who've never heard of you before and, you know, they should have distrust and we understand that, but we're really hoping to open more doors on how this can be a worthy toolbox, tool in their toolbox. We definitely know that feeling about cold calling

[00:09:48] agencies, but I think there's more reason to work with you all because we're just bothering them for, you know, because we're nosy. Whereas you guys are trying to do something for them.

[00:09:58] I wonder what is, what is that like if you could explain your process or like kind of talk about that? Like how do you go from a cold call to building up that trust necessary with a law

[00:10:10] enforcement agency to maybe open the door towards you working on a case for them? Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it goes back to networking, right? Going to conferences, we've gone to tons of conferences, take the opportunities to meet people, hand out business

[00:10:23] cards, let people know that we're, you know, we're out in the field and then at home it's, you know, oftentimes just sending emails out, reaching out to local agencies. I'm in Connecticut, so I've reached out to, you know, local law enforcement, state law enforcement,

[00:10:41] medical examiner's offices, things like that. Especially, you know, when you hear them speak at a conference and talk about how expensive it is to get IGG done. There are certain firms that

[00:10:52] do it, but they charge per hour for the IGG or for the genealogy piece of it. And that can become very, very expensive very quickly. You know, we've had cases at DNA Doe Project that took two years

[00:11:03] to solve. No agency has that kind of funds to support genealogy work for week after week. So, you know, we structure ourselves so that we will flat fee covers genealogy for as long as it takes.

[00:11:18] And, you know, we just try to get the word out, reach out to our agencies and they have these cases. In some cases, they've done all the work, genealogy has started and then it just stalled

[00:11:30] because of lack of funding. You know, so try to reach out so we can pick that up, carry the ball forward and hopefully get you an answer. Are you trying to lose weight and feeling like you're

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[00:12:57] Yeah, and certainly the genealogy is probably the most likely hindrance on solving a case quickly, and that's just the fact of there being underrepresented culture groups inside the DNA databases. There's adoptions. There's unknown parentage

[00:13:16] within the family trees, and that can really slow down the genealogy process. So we understand the lab work has its own fees, and then the genealogy on top of it can be another added

[00:13:30] bump in the funding. And when it costs so much just to exhume the body or the man hours of digging that cold case file out to see if there's any DNA evidence and have that even run for

[00:13:43] testing, you know, look, 30-year-old case they've already spent thousands and thousands of dollars in man hours and different investigative leads. And we're like, this is only this much, but it's on top

[00:13:56] of years and years and years and years of so much work and dedication by these agencies that have devoted thousands of dollars that it's just, it's horrifying to know that, you know, there's

[00:14:12] another charge on top of it, but it is what it is. Everything has a cost to it. Yeah, but it really sounds like you guys have set up the way that you think about that in a really smart manner to kind

[00:14:24] of, it's like, it's a flat fee, you know, we'll come in, this includes everything, where you're not going to get into that position where it's like, but you understand why it's so expensive. People deserve to

[00:14:35] be paid for their labor. It's just, it's complicated when you're dealing with tight budgets, I guess. Yes. I suppose, can you talk us through the beginning of your involvement in this Fort Wayne

[00:14:46] case and sort of give us the details on that Doe case and sort of how you came to sort of get, dive into it? Well, as I am kind of addicted to social media, I'm regularly on there looking

[00:15:00] for at news stories and seeing what's going on. And I ran across a local news story in Fort Wayne about the coroner's office. They were revisiting three cold cases, three Doe cases that they had.

[00:15:16] And I'm reading the article and the first thing that jumps out to me is Tabitha's. She was called Mary Jane Doe and she was found in 1992 and she was pregnant. And I'm a mother and Nancy is a

[00:15:31] mother and I just, my heart broke for this poor young woman who was found in a full dark basement and for 30 years basically she's gone unidentified. So I thought, well, why not? They put his name in

[00:15:50] there. I looked up Chris Meals with the coroner's office there in Allen County and I reached out and said, Hey, I saw this news article and I'm with Ignite DNA and we would like to help you

[00:16:04] with this case. So he graciously let me come and give him my elevator speech in an afternoon. You know, essentially I told him, I said, if you let me, you let us work on this,

[00:16:19] we'll raise the funds to make it happen. We will put a fundraiser out and we will do the, we'll get the lab work coordinated. And he said, let's go, let's do it. That was essentially the birth of our coordination with the coroner's office there in Allen County.

[00:16:37] And then from there, we set up a Give Butter fundraiser and started trying to promote that on our social media. We pretty much hit up every family member and every friend we've ever known.

[00:16:49] Our life, we had our little cup out like, oh, it's for the poor guys, you know, help us out here. And, you know, it was all for such a good cause. In the meantime, you know, we were able to

[00:17:04] coordinate with university of North Texas who had the extracted DNA and they shipped it to Intermountain Forensics, who processed the sequencing and bioinformatics for us. That took quite a bit of time. There was a, they had to rerun the sequencing. The DNA was fairly

[00:17:23] degraded because of our condition, but yeah, in February they were able to upload it. We were able to upload it to GEDmatch and boom, it was, it was a Saturday. It was a Saturday. It was a

[00:17:39] full Saturday. Couldn't wait till Monday morning to talk to the coroner's office. I'm an early riser. I'm an early bird. So I was like, wake up, wake up. I'm not going to look at these until

[00:17:54] you're up. But I was like, and Nancy's fairly early, but I'm like, I'm like a 5 AM or I'm, I'm crazy. But I was like, we have results get in there. So we did the genealogy and, you know, she took one

[00:18:13] side of the tree and I took the other side and you know, it was, the genealogy was very fast. The mother's side, we had high matches and the father's side, even though it was lower

[00:18:25] matches, they were good matches. The family tree was easy to build, but the father's side, we could tell right away was from the Fort Wayne area. So we were like, oh, there's a connection.

[00:18:35] At least, you know, we knew then Tabitha was probably from the area. Yeah. We were able to find, like Lisa said, lots of maternal matches. And we knew once we had the paternal side that

[00:18:46] these were the parents of our doe, but we thought we had found her because we'd found records that they had placed a daughter for adoption in California, which would have been around the

[00:19:00] same age as our doe. But then it turns out, you know, we had proof of life well past 1992 for that daughter. So now we're looking for a second daughter and we have no records of a second

[00:19:12] daughter being born to this couple. But knowing that they had one daughter that was placed for adoption, there's a potential a second daughter could have been placed for adoption. And you know, that was up to the coroner's office to start reaching out and asking those questions to the

[00:19:26] family members. So we basically then, that, was it that Monday that I went in there or was it Tuesday? I can't remember. I went in there and was able to present him with a list of the people next of kin

[00:19:42] that he could reach out to that we know there's, there has to be another daughter. This is definitely the parents. We were very certain of that and gave him the information. And he was

[00:19:56] able to reach out to on the maternal side that had uploaded the Judd match. They provided the information that she had been adopted by the father's sister and had been raised in the

[00:20:09] Fort Wayne area. So then he was able to reach out to the father and get a DNA sample to confirm that he was the parent, the mother's deceased. And that was a, that was a very fast, wild,

[00:20:22] red night for a few days there. Yeah. It was nice to know that, that her maternal relatives were looking for her and that's why they had all uploaded to Judd match.

[00:20:31] They were hoping to find her. And so that was nice to know that, that, you know, she hadn't been forgotten, obviously. So, and the family was very warm and thankful. The father, I was able to meet

[00:20:46] him during the press conference and her half brother on that side and they were heartbroken heartbroken. You know, they just, they knew she was, she had left to go live in another state with someone else. And they just never considered that she would have still been there deceased

[00:21:08] somewhere. You know, they're all starting the grieving process here now since February, since being notified of this, they're thankful, but you know it, it broke my heart to see them. You know, they, they never wanted to lose contact with her, but she just went off and

[00:21:25] disappeared and they thought, Oh, she's living her best life in another state with someone else. And that, that happens a lot when people say, Oh, why wasn't this person reported missing? Or

[00:21:37] didn't the family care? Well, the family cared a lot. They just didn't know their person was missing. Yeah. And you, you want to, you know, if someone says I'm moving out and

[00:21:47] I'm leaving, you want to think that they are living their best life. Yeah. No, like just fell out of touch and it's not a sinister thing. So you can understand where families are coming from,

[00:21:59] you know, is this one of those cases at this point that is being classified has been classified as a homicide or is it, is it just uncertain about what happened to her exactly? So detective Brian Martin

[00:22:13] did state during the press conference that it's considered an open case. Her death certificate, I believe says undetermined, but the state of her body when it was found, there wasn't enough there to determine whether it was an act of homicide or if she died of

[00:22:30] exposure or something else. He did also state in the press conference that Tabitha's husband, estranged husband, they, they had never divorced was not considered a person of interest or anything. So they did have interviews with her family and they're unsure exactly what happened,

[00:22:50] but he also then didn't really talk about it because it is considered an open case. But it's like you guys solved the ultimately the biggest mystery, which was what is her name?

[00:22:59] And what is that like to be able to work on a case like this and give a doe back their name? Well, that's the reason we do it. No, that's, that's the gold star, right? To be able to get

[00:23:11] that confirmation that we were able to identify the person and, and now her family has the answers, you know, even if it's hard, at least they know, and then, and they can take the next steps to

[00:23:22] take care of her from here on out. Yeah, that's, that's the whole reason we do the work. There's nothing like that feeling when you get to that answer, you know, whether it's a quick case or

[00:23:29] a long case, it's always good. I always think of it as like bittersweet, you know, it's, it's wonderful to be able to do this and to give them their names and help the family there.

[00:23:42] And at the same time, it's for a sad reason, and you wish it had never come to that. You're in, in no means or any way of controlling that. But your, your heart goes out to them because

[00:23:56] now they know for sure that they have a loss in their family. So it's a very bittersweet reaction. I won't lie, and my heart beats really fast when we get a name

[00:24:07] on something. And, you know, if you see that or you, you hear their name for the first time after you've been researching them, whether it's just like Nancy said, a few hours or two years, that reaction is just, it's, it's right there in your heart.

[00:24:23] What would your recommendation be for people who might be listening, who might be aware of family members in their family who fell off the map and that they lost touch with, and they might be kind of hearing some similarities with this? You know,

[00:24:37] what are some ways that they can go about trying to sort of get answers or possibly put themselves out there in a DNA sense to kind of maybe get some matches? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I would say I would encourage anybody in that situation to

[00:24:52] work with their local investigator or local agency to get a profile into NamUs. So NamUs is a database that's run by the University of North Texas, and it has a missing persons and an unidentified remains portion. But if you have a family member who's missing, you can get

[00:25:12] everything that you know about that person's last known whereabouts, tattoos, anything identifying, anything like that, you can get uploaded into NamUs. And there are thousands of web sleuths who just spend their days looking in what's in NamUs and trying to match unidentified remains

[00:25:29] with missing persons cases. But then secondarily, if they want to take the DNA approach, if you've already tested with Ancestry or 23andMe, you can simply download a data file and you can upload that for free to GEDmatch and to FamilyTreeDNA and opt into,

[00:25:46] if you want to opt into law enforcement cases, that's entirely up to you. I should have clarified earlier, but GEDmatch unidentified human remains cases do not require opt-in. Everybody in GEDmatch can be matched to an unidentified human remains case. And then if you haven't, I would say, you

[00:26:05] know, next time the kits are on sale, have one sent in, you know, Ancestry, 23andMe, FamilyTreeDNA, MyHeritage. There's also a portion of CODIS where if they volunteer their DNA to go into CODIS, when

[00:26:19] somebody is doing an unidentified remains case, when an agency is working one, they have to upload the DNA to CODIS first and they can search it against missing persons family in CODIS before they go through the whole expensive IGG process. So I do highly recommend, like Nancy said,

[00:26:39] working with their law enforcement. If they know their person is missing and they file a missing person's report, I should say that. If you're not sure if they're missing, but they've just fallen off the radar, then going through and uploading to GEDmatch is probably the best way.

[00:26:57] People who are adults can just go anytime they want to and they're not necessarily missing. You wouldn't want to start a manhunt for somebody who's voluntarily left the state for some reason.

[00:27:09] No, that sounds like it would just cause a lot of family drama, frankly. But no, yeah, well said. It can be a good tool in some instances. One question I'd be really interested in is what sort

[00:27:22] of message would you have for other law enforcement agencies or coroner's offices within Indiana or outside of Indiana, wherever, who might have a similar case on their hands that's not, there's no traction. It is very much cold, but there is that opportunity with DNA. What would

[00:27:40] you say to an agency like that about how they can possibly get help to maybe just crack this thing wide open? I would say, reach out to IgniteDNA. We'll be happy to meet with you, review your case,

[00:27:55] understand what complexities you have, whether or not you have viable DNA, perhaps like the Indiana case we just talked about. You already have an extraction which can tremendously reduce the cost of getting your DNA into a format that can be used for IGG. And we also have the

[00:28:13] opportunity for people who want to support these cases to donate on our website. There is some funding available that we know is available. We can help them also receive some funding for the lab work and the processes. We typically

[00:28:28] will offer for the first case of working with an agency, one case of free or reduced genealogy hours, just to prove to them what we can do and the level of work that we can provide.

[00:28:39] Absolutely. And I hope if anyone affiliated with any such agencies is listening that they're strongly considering this because, I mean, just because a case is, is critical, it's not considering this because, I mean, just because a case is, is cold or it's older does not mean that

[00:28:53] there is not a family desperately waiting for answers or, you know, momentum to be had around solving, you know, a crime. One thing I'd be curious as you mentioned the donations, and I

[00:29:03] know I feel like a lot of people who are interested in true crime, they want to, they want to be able to impact cases. They want to be able to help and help solve cases, help solve long-term mysteries.

[00:29:14] And so can you talk about, you know, what the donations mean to your organization and sort of how, how that money goes towards the, the work that you do? Yeah. So any donations that we've

[00:29:25] received for casework is a hundred percent applied to the casework. It goes to defray anything that the agency would have to pay in order to get the lab work done. And in some cases,

[00:29:37] you know, extract DNA from existing evidence, get the lab work done. Sequencing can be very expensive. Bioinformatics is a necessary step in order to get that data file format that can be uploaded into the

[00:29:50] databases. And all of that adds up and it just, in some cases, the agencies don't have funding for it. They haven't budgeted for it and it's just not available. So if we can fundraise that on their

[00:30:01] behalf, we will do the genealogy pro bono in order to get these cases solved for them. It's always a struggle. And we understand that lab fees are there for a reason, the chemicals, the overhead,

[00:30:14] the people, it all, it all costs money and we want to be there to help them with the best way of processing the DNA to make this work. We will only upload to one DNA database at a time so that we

[00:30:27] can ensure that the max resources for one database at a time, because each have an upload fee. So doing that in a strategy where we can minimize the cost of the agency and maximize the amount of

[00:30:40] money that's funded in the most responsible way possible is our mission and our goal. And then is there any sort of like, this is probably just me being, you know, trying to

[00:30:53] brainstorm, but is there any way that we can kind of encourage our listeners and members of the public in general? Like, is there a way that members of the public can let powers that are powers that be, whether that's a law enforcement agency or a coroner's office or

[00:31:10] legislatures at any sort of local or state level know that, you know, solving some of these cold cases is important and should be treated as a priority and not an afterthought. Like, is there

[00:31:21] any way that we can all lend our voices? Because sometimes I think there is a bit of dissonance between the powers that be and the public around how much resources should be put into some of this.

[00:31:35] Yeah, I think there's a number of things you can do. I mean, the first step is to get an understanding of what the environment, what the situation is like in your county or your state.

[00:31:46] I'm in Connecticut. It's a very small state, but I know when I look at our cold cases, the number of cold cases that are open, the number of unidentified human range cases that are open, it's tremendous for such a small state. There's hundreds and hundreds. So,

[00:32:00] you know, I'm sure for a larger state it's just exponentially higher. But there's always opportunities to reach out to those departments who's ever responsible for running your cold case teams or for medical examiner's offices, coroner's offices, and asking what they're

[00:32:17] doing about this. And then also, you know, your legislature, your local lawmakers. And on that note, if you were to go to endthebacklog.org, you can actually send your elected officials a form directly from their website to speak to the Sexual Assault Kit

[00:32:35] Initiative and how your state, it lists each state and how you're doing. I know in my own state that there's still some work to be done. So to speak to those, put your voice into your elected officials

[00:32:48] and say, we need this to be resolved. We need whatever tools can be utilized to advance justice for victims, you know, in the sense of the SAKI kits that seeking justice for the sexual assault

[00:33:04] that occurred. But, you know, just whatever it takes to end this, there's just thousands and thousands and thousands of cases that could be worked with IGG work. Really well said. And yeah, I mean, we're based in Indiana. We have a lot of listeners in Indiana.

[00:33:21] All of us listening and participating in this in Indiana, we need to look at this and maybe send some emails because it's not good. It's not good. And we can make it better. You know,

[00:33:32] we can work to make it better. And that's what's important. It's not about blame. It's about going forward, but it's really important. And, you know, these people deserve justice and just because the case is older does not mean it does not matter. It just maybe needs more

[00:33:49] resources put toward and we all, I think, are in agreement that that is a good use of police and investigative resources. I suppose, is there anything about Tabitha's case or about the work

[00:34:03] that you do in general with the does that you wanted to mention or you think it's important that you wanted to mention or you think it's important for the audience to sort of understand? For me, it's important to understand that no blame should be passed on to family.

[00:34:21] When people are found in their cases cold, there's usually a reason that a missing persons report wasn't filed when a case goes cold and it hasn't been revisited by an agency. It's not because the investigator just stopped caring. They oftentimes never stop caring, but the funding,

[00:34:43] the resources to continue to put that at the top is very limited. And there's, you know, for a homicide detective, there's new murders happening every day and almost everywhere. And there's new does found across the country all the time. And our hope is that this would

[00:35:01] be another resource to end that. But, you know, our job is not to hold the blame. It's just to help and be an active resource for agencies to move forward. Yeah, I agree with everything that

[00:35:13] Lisa just said. And it's the number of missing persons in this country is staggering as are the number of unidentified human remains cases. And so there's just, you know, it'll never be resolved in our lifetime, but everything we can do to help is what's important to us.

[00:35:36] Really well said. Well, Lisa and Nancy, thank you both so much for taking the time to speak with us. Your insights and your stories were just incredible. And we just want to say thank you. We really appreciate it. Our audience is really going to enjoy this.

[00:35:48] Yeah. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. Yes. Thank you. We want to thank Nancy and Lisa for speaking with us today. We'll link to their website, igniteDNA.com, as well as their Give Better fundraiser account.

[00:36:03] The work and care that Nancy and Lisa put into this is incredibly impressive, and we're grateful for them and everybody who is trying to use investigative genetic genealogy to give these

[00:36:14] does their names back. We want to stress that if you are in law enforcement or working at a coroner's office and you are aware of unidentified remains cases in your area, we sincerely hope that

[00:36:24] you consider reaching out to Ignite DNA. And if you are an interested civilian, consider suggesting that course of action to authorities in your area. Let's get these does their names back.

[00:36:36] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheetatgmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our

[00:36:58] Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:37:19] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the

[00:37:33] Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.