The Cheat Sheet: Deepfakes and Deep Space

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of sexual crimes against children as well as rape and murder.

[00:00:11] So today our cases are actually quite far flung. We're going to be doing a case based out of Pennsylvania, one that spans between New York, Tennessee and kind of Michigan, one in Minnesota, and then another one in Oregon.

[00:00:26] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:29] Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:32] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:33] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:40] We are The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:41] And this is The Cheat Sheet, Deepfakes and Deep Space.

[00:01:31] For this first case, thanks so much to our friend and listener who brought this to our attention. This is a kind of a theme, a story that really has unfortunately become all too commonplace.

[00:01:43] We wanted to talk about it.

[00:01:45] Our sources for this are News Nation, as well as ABC 27 and LNP Lancaster Online via government technology, which is a website.

[00:01:55] Right. So we'll be linking to all of those so you can kind of follow along.

[00:01:59] This story comes to us from Pennsylvania.

[00:02:03] It's about a private school called the Lancaster Country Day School.

[00:02:08] And what happened was that in November of 2023, the school started getting some anonymous tips via their sort of app where you can report things about how a male ninth grader was making deep fake pornographic images with artificial intelligence of numerous girls at the school.

[00:02:31] Underage girls, his fellow students.

[00:02:37] This has resulted in a lawsuit.

[00:02:39] A lawyer named Matthew Ferranda Diedrich took on this case.

[00:02:45] He's with the law firm Royer Cooper Cohen and Braunfeld.

[00:02:48] He's out of, I believe, Philadelphia.

[00:02:50] And what he's alleging and what the parents of some of these girls is alleging is that the school didn't take action and call police until May of 2024.

[00:02:59] So months after the initial tip.

[00:03:03] They're saying that the school did not protect students because they didn't, you know, they were mandatory reporters.

[00:03:08] You know, since then, there's been a number of resignations and a lot of controversy.

[00:03:13] The students actually even organized a walkout where they felt unprotected by this.

[00:03:19] And what, you know, what's kind of come out is that, you know, a parent actually had to contact police in this case where that's where the ball really got rolling, not through the school.

[00:03:32] So the police are also noting that they think the number of victims may number around 46, including 38 current students and maybe eight former students.

[00:03:45] So this is this is horrifying to me.

[00:03:51] You know, there's been a lot of debate about artificial intelligence and how that technology is used.

[00:03:57] And obviously, that's a huge umbrella incorporating a lot of different.

[00:04:02] You know, types of things from people making crummy art online to, you know, people writing in kind of soulless ways to technology that might be helpful, like identifying cancers.

[00:04:15] So, I mean, like it's a range of technology.

[00:04:17] I don't think it is necessarily helpful to kind of demonize AI as a whole because it just can mean a lot of different things.

[00:04:25] Some of it helpful, some of it not so helpful.

[00:04:28] But it kind of, you know, we've done a lot of reporting on child sexual abuse materials and how predators can gather that.

[00:04:38] And what's scary now is that they can essentially compile that without ever needing to have access to a child because.

[00:04:47] AI has gotten better and it can make realistic looking images.

[00:04:51] And to me, even though, you know, this this kind of thing doesn't necessarily involve, you know, like an actual situation where a young woman or a girl is taking a picture of herself and sending it to somebody.

[00:05:06] It's still just as violating and just as disturbing for those girls involved.

[00:05:10] It's incredibly violating.

[00:05:12] It's incredibly horrifying for them and exploitative.

[00:05:17] And so it really concerns me that this sort of thing is happening.

[00:05:21] And it seems like, as usual, the government is pretty slow to react to new technology and act accordingly.

[00:05:27] What do you think?

[00:05:29] Yeah, it raises lots of interesting issues, including issues around the First Amendment and free speech that are going to be tough to wrestle with as AI continues to grow and develop.

[00:05:44] I mean, we have a situation where, you know, the alleged perpetrator in this case is not an adult man.

[00:05:50] It's a ninth grade boy or was when when this happened.

[00:05:54] He's been seemingly removed from the school.

[00:05:56] I suppose that means expulsion.

[00:05:59] But I don't feel like we've essentially taken a generation or generations of children.

[00:06:05] We've unleashed them on the Internet.

[00:06:07] We've we've given given them free reign, which means they have access to a lot of information, which is good.

[00:06:13] But it also means that they have access to hardcore pornography.

[00:06:16] And, you know, as they're as they're kind of coming into their own sexuality, I think that like we shouldn't.

[00:06:23] Like that is a problem.

[00:06:25] Like that's not a good thing.

[00:06:28] Developing especially boys.

[00:06:29] They're developing into that.

[00:06:31] They're interested in sex.

[00:06:32] That's how kids are.

[00:06:33] That's you know, that's human nature.

[00:06:35] We're not going to change that.

[00:06:36] But then we're telling them not only can you now watch a lot of, you know, frankly, very hardcore, very exploitative pornography is probably in a short circuit your your brain to a certain extent and make you think that this is normal sex.

[00:06:53] Not only are we going to do that, but now we're going to let you become the pornographer because you can take pictures of your classmates and put them into this A.I.

[00:07:00] nexus and make realistic pornographic images and probably at some point pornographic videos with that.

[00:07:07] And that seems like not ideal.

[00:07:09] And I mean.

[00:07:11] I think having consequences for people doing this is is necessary, but the genies out of the bottle, you're not going to ban A.I.

[00:07:19] You're not going to ban people from, you know, using it however they want.

[00:07:23] But I think, you know, I think you need to protect kids.

[00:07:26] And it's not just going to be girls who are having being subjected to this.

[00:07:30] It's going to be boys, too.

[00:07:31] It's going to be young boys.

[00:07:32] And it's.

[00:07:34] I think we need to teach our kids that, you know, there needs to be some parenting here of like, you know, what what how is this kid thinking that this is OK?

[00:07:44] I mean, like teaching kids this is not OK.

[00:07:47] This is, you know, consent is important.

[00:07:49] You need to be an honorable, respectful young man and not be doing this.

[00:07:53] You can be interested in sex and not be exploiting other people.

[00:07:57] Like I think being a teenager is super confusing.

[00:08:01] They're, you know, the hormones and they're kind of doing all this stuff.

[00:08:05] But I think that's.

[00:08:07] There needs to come from home a message of, you know.

[00:08:11] Just because you have hormones, just because you're doing this doesn't mean any kind of behavior to deal with that is acceptable.

[00:08:17] I don't think we should treat this as oh, kids are being kids.

[00:08:19] I think it's it's predatory and dehumanizing.

[00:08:23] And I think for a lot of women who are older like me, like I'm just glad I got out of high school before any of this was going on, because I mean, if this if I were one of those girls, it would be really upsetting and really violating to me.

[00:08:33] And back then, like, you know, I feel like laws need to reflect that.

[00:08:41] And it's not about saying we're putting the genie back in the bottle, but it is about saying there'll be consequences when people are taking images of underage children and mocking up pornography about it.

[00:08:54] Like that's not acceptable behavior.

[00:08:57] So what kind of laws would you like to see?

[00:09:00] Oh, I don't know.

[00:09:01] I mean, you have to be careful, as you said, to not just trample all over any freedom of speech.

[00:09:06] But I think I think there can be some kind of narrowly crafted thing here where you you make this unacceptable.

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[00:14:06] And serious punishment about it.

[00:14:09] I mean, we've started and in recent times taken CSAM seriously as a crime, and I think we can incorporate this.

[00:14:23] And also, it's about education, teaching young girls and boys what's okay, what does being a good citizen look like, what does being a good community member look like, why it's okay to be experiencing some of these new sexual feelings, but perhaps what's a healthy way to deal with that versus what's a horrible and dehumanizing way to your fellow classmates.

[00:14:47] Looking at each other, not as just objects, but looking at each other as human beings could be helpful.

[00:14:54] I'm curious, in your mind, would you see these laws more in the criminal area or the civil area?

[00:15:00] In other words, if someone were to do an image like that of you when you're a young person, should you have the right to sue them civilly, or would you like to see the person go to jail?

[00:15:11] Both.

[00:15:12] Both.

[00:15:13] I also actually, when you bring up civilly, I think that's a good point.

[00:15:16] I think when you hit people, I mean, you could say, let's all teach our young people how to be good adults, but that also requires good adults to do that.

[00:15:26] And some people are not good people, and they don't care about other people, and they're not going to do that with their kids, and their kids are going to learn accordingly.

[00:15:32] So it's unrealistic to think that that would fix everything.

[00:15:36] So one thing that might make parents be a little bit more wary of what their kids are doing online, though, is if suddenly their family is open to a massive civil lawsuit because their child has been doing stuff like this.

[00:15:47] So I don't know.

[00:15:48] When it comes to crafting actual laws around it and looking at appropriate punishments, I would leave that to the legal experts.

[00:15:54] I think it's a situation where you do need to take into account that if it's a young boy doing this in high school, perhaps that should be treated less severely than an adult man.

[00:16:06] Right?

[00:16:08] I think that needs to be taken into account.

[00:16:10] I think you need to take into account a lot of different things.

[00:16:12] But what I would like to see, I guess, is – and it seems like some states are going in this direction – looking at encouraging states to take action and look at what should be done and hearing from families and parents and schools and what they're seeing and sort of acting accordingly.

[00:16:28] I just think there needs to be scrutinized carefully.

[00:16:34] Should we move on?

[00:16:35] Absolutely.

[00:16:37] So are we doing next case that kind of – I looked at that spanned from New York to Tennessee?

[00:16:46] Or do you want to do one of yours first?

[00:16:48] No, do yours.

[00:16:48] I'll jump in.

[00:16:50] So this is another listener recommendation, and thanks very much to this person for recommending it.

[00:16:56] It's really kind of a pretty fascinating and just elaborate one that I'd never heard of before.

[00:17:03] So I appreciate to that person.

[00:17:05] Appreciate that person.

[00:17:07] I would say my sources for this are the Nashville scene as well as – I got some information from Williamson scene.

[00:17:17] And there's also a website called nicoleasy.com, and I will link to that.

[00:17:25] It has some helpful information.

[00:17:26] So this is the disappearance of the show.

[00:17:29] So this is the disappearance of Nico Lisi, and it goes all the way back to 2011.

[00:17:34] So September 30th, 2011, an 18-year-old boy named Nico Lisi, he and his 20-year-old friend Robert Nicholas Neil Knight III, they're hanging out.

[00:17:46] They're in Addison, New York.

[00:17:48] That's up in Steuben County.

[00:17:50] And, you know, around 2 p.m., they interact with Nico's uncle.

[00:17:54] And they're kind of captured on some surveillance footage that day.

[00:17:58] But, you know, Nico, just to give you a description since he's missing, he's white.

[00:18:03] He had brown hair, brown eyes.

[00:18:06] And he was last seen wearing a black hooded sweatshirt, red shorts, sneakers, wearing a silver crucifix necklace.

[00:18:15] And these two guys are hanging out in a 2004 GMC Canyon pickup truck.

[00:18:21] And they tell people that they got the truck from Knight's grandfather.

[00:18:26] That was not true.

[00:18:27] That truck was stolen.

[00:18:29] So kind of first indication something's wrong.

[00:18:32] They tell people that they're going to go camping around Buffalo and then they head out.

[00:18:36] So the following on rather on October 1st of that year, we have, you know, the following day.

[00:18:48] Knight goes back to his parents' house in Romulus, Michigan.

[00:18:52] So obviously quite far away from Buffalo.

[00:18:55] It's not clear exactly when he gets there, but it's somewhere between 6 a.m. and 10 a.m.

[00:18:59] And he claims that Nico dropped him off, but no one saw Nico.

[00:19:05] Meanwhile, a young man living on Flintlock Drive in Franklin, Tennessee, that day sends Nico a Western Union money order for $90, which is then picked up in Ohio.

[00:19:17] That's going to become important later.

[00:19:19] That afternoon, Nico gets a call from his grandmother around 5 p.m. Eastern time, and he does pick up the phone.

[00:19:26] He answers.

[00:19:26] And he says he can't talk but would call her back.

[00:19:29] He never does.

[00:19:31] Around that same time, his phone pings for the last time around Flintlock Drive in Franklin.

[00:19:37] So he did have a connection to Franklin, Tennessee.

[00:19:40] We've actually covered a case from Franklin, the murder of Peggy Cox, I believe.

[00:19:46] I remember.

[00:19:47] And so it's a suburb of Nashville.

[00:19:50] I guess it's near Nashville.

[00:19:52] And Nico had experience there.

[00:19:54] He had actually attended Franklin High School for 11th grade before moving back to New York.

[00:19:59] So he lived in Franklin for a bit.

[00:20:02] But this same day while this is going on, Nico's driver's license is found in front of the post office in Hornel, New York.

[00:20:11] And it's the good Samaritan who finds it, mails it to Nico's mother.

[00:20:18] And October 3rd, she gets it in the mail, and she's very concerned.

[00:20:22] In the interim, Nico's Facebook page just abruptly is shut down.

[00:20:27] It just disappears.

[00:20:29] Later on, Knight, his brother Christopher admits that he and his brother did that from their house in Romulus.

[00:20:37] They had access to Nico's Facebook page, and they shut it down.

[00:20:40] So October 5th, Nico is reported missing.

[00:20:43] Three days later, Michigan police go and question Knight.

[00:20:46] And as a result of that interview, he ends up getting committed to a psychiatric hospital.

[00:20:52] So, you know, no one sees Nico at this point.

[00:20:55] No one knows where he is.

[00:20:58] Knight is subsequently released.

[00:21:00] And remember, he's the guy who was last with Nico, seemingly.

[00:21:04] But on October 10th, unfortunately, he dies of a drug overdose.

[00:21:09] So all this is happening very quickly.

[00:21:11] I can't imagine the pain that Nico's family went through.

[00:21:14] Not only is their son missing, but the guy who went off with him is suddenly dead.

[00:21:18] And answers are not coming.

[00:21:22] So the next big development in the case, and it's just baffling because he leaves from New York.

[00:21:28] This other guy ends up in Michigan.

[00:21:31] He seemingly is in Tennessee.

[00:21:33] That's where his phone is.

[00:21:34] That's where he's, you know, he picks up a call like we know he's alive at that point.

[00:21:38] And then nothing.

[00:21:39] It's just like, what?

[00:21:41] But it's going to get weirder.

[00:21:43] So July 2016, the pickup truck that was stolen that they were driving in is finally found because that had been missing, too.

[00:21:52] It was in a garage on Colorado Avenue in the Sylvan Park neighborhood of Nashville.

[00:22:01] And it was at the home of people named James Schrader and Deborah Lynn Carter.

[00:22:08] They were parents of a young man named James Schrader.

[00:22:12] He's going to become important later.

[00:22:13] But the truck was all stripped down for parts, kind of almost like it had been chopped for a chop shop.

[00:22:21] And then in 2017, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation took over the case.

[00:22:27] Other people passed away associated with it, including Christopher Knight, Robbie's brother, who gave some answers about how the Facebook page got shut down.

[00:22:35] And then in August 2023, Nico was declared legally dead.

[00:22:39] So.

[00:22:41] A really bizarre twist came up very recently in this case.

[00:22:45] And to kind of go into it, we need to talk about a man named Eduardo.

[00:22:52] I hope I'm saying his last name right.

[00:22:54] Aguirre.

[00:22:56] Aguirre was a real estate agent.

[00:22:59] He was a realtor with a place called Hodges and Fushi Realty, Inc.

[00:23:04] You can actually look at his Zillow page is still up.

[00:23:07] It talks about how he was a first generation high school and college graduate and he likes to travel, make new friends.

[00:23:15] He's a really good realtor.

[00:23:16] He does it full time.

[00:23:18] It's not a side job and he's going to do a great job for you.

[00:23:21] And so, you know, just kind of normal thing.

[00:23:25] He's 32 now.

[00:23:26] So he's kind of up and coming.

[00:23:27] But he has fallen into some major legal trouble.

[00:23:31] So the incident in question occurred on March 10th, 2022.

[00:23:36] Aguirre met up with a woman who he previously worked for.

[00:23:41] They considered each other good friends.

[00:23:43] They had lunch and they actually drank together.

[00:23:46] So they drank some alcohol.

[00:23:48] And the woman said that normally she did not do that at lunch, but she felt very comfortable with Aguirre.

[00:23:53] You know, then afterwards he said, let's go to a liquor store.

[00:23:56] They go to the liquor store.

[00:23:57] She took take some liquor with him again.

[00:23:59] Not something she'd normally do, but she kind of felt embarrassed to say no at that point.

[00:24:03] They're kind of doing some day drinking together.

[00:24:06] So she drinks this liquor with him and they're in his Dodge Ram truck together and she starts to lose consciousness.

[00:24:13] She said it was a very weird feeling.

[00:24:14] It came on all of a sudden.

[00:24:15] She felt like she couldn't move.

[00:24:17] Her head felt really heavy.

[00:24:19] And as she's kind of incapacitated, Aguirre sexually assaults her.

[00:24:24] She's crying.

[00:24:25] She's trying to push him off.

[00:24:26] He's telling her not to push him.

[00:24:29] After he assaults her, he takes her to the hospital.

[00:24:32] The following day, she filed a police report against him.

[00:24:36] Now, the DNA in this case was not great because, you know, she had bathed and changed clothes in between.

[00:24:42] It's very critical in cases like this for the victim to be kind of tested right away because otherwise a lot of evidence can be lost.

[00:24:49] So while there was male DNA found associated with the attack, it didn't conclusively match Aguirre.

[00:24:56] But the defense, in fairness, wasn't really contesting that something happened.

[00:25:00] They just said it was a drunken, consensual encounter between two people who were both intoxicated.

[00:25:07] So the jury ended up hearing this and they convict.

[00:25:10] They actually acquitted Aguirre on three or four counts, but they convicted him on one count regarding the sexual assault.

[00:25:17] And he could go to jail for eight.

[00:25:20] He can go to prison rather for eight to 12 years.

[00:25:22] So what came out during trial and keep in mind, the jury never heard this.

[00:25:30] That is that Aguirre is a person of interest in Nico's case.

[00:25:34] So you're like, how does this have anything to do with that?

[00:25:37] Well, putting it together myself, it seems that Aguirre was the young man on Flintlock Drive who was having those interactions with Nico.

[00:25:47] He sent him money and Nico came to see him.

[00:25:50] And so, again, Williamson County Circuit Court Judge David Veal ruled against this coming in, which I understand because it doesn't really have anything to do with the rape case.

[00:26:00] But what there was a Nathan Neese, who's the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Assistant Special Agent in Charge, who's the lead agent on the case.

[00:26:09] He was basically saying like, you know, the prosecution saying, hey, Aguirre previously lied to police.

[00:26:17] Like he's not a trustworthy person.

[00:26:19] And he lied in this lease in Nico's case.

[00:26:22] And so we need to kind of consider that.

[00:26:24] So let's go back to December 2011.

[00:26:28] Aguirre graduated from the school in 2009.

[00:26:31] And around the time of Nico's disappearance, he, you know, he was already graduated, but he consented to an interview with the high school resource officer.

[00:26:39] And he told that officer that Nico had come to his house late in the day on October 1st, 2011.

[00:26:44] And that the following morning, he and Nico played soccer with Aguirre's dad and uncle.

[00:26:50] But the uncle got injured.

[00:26:51] So the dad took him to the hospital around 8, 15 a.m.

[00:26:54] And then they watched Aguirre's brother's soccer team play.

[00:26:59] Nico left really abruptly without saying goodbye.

[00:27:01] Got his backpack, just left.

[00:27:02] And Aguirre's dad backed up that story.

[00:27:07] But in 2016, he gave a lot more detail to police.

[00:27:12] He claimed he had wired Nico gas money.

[00:27:15] So he was the guy who sent him that money.

[00:27:18] He said that Nico came and showed up with a bunch of guns and said he needed to get rid of a truck.

[00:27:23] So he gave it to one of Aguirre's friends named James Schrader.

[00:27:30] Of course, that fits because the truck was found at Schrader's place.

[00:27:35] Schrader is no longer alive to kind of give any information.

[00:27:38] He died in 2014.

[00:27:42] And so basically, Schrader and a guy named Jacob Quirant, who also died in 2015, chopped it up for scrap.

[00:27:52] From there, Aguirre said Nico spent one night at his house and then got in touch with a guy named Jose Vargas, who's from Springfield, who helped him find a room at a place on Westminster Drive in Franklin.

[00:28:04] They went there.

[00:28:05] They spoke with an unidentified Hispanic middle-aged guy.

[00:28:10] And Nico moved into that place.

[00:28:11] He went to apply for jobs the next day.

[00:28:14] Next thing Aguirre knows, Vargas is contacting him saying, hey, Nico left.

[00:28:18] Get his stuff or pay his rent.

[00:28:21] Aguirre shows up at the house, claims that he sees a bunch of Hispanic people that he does not recognize, gets Nico's clothes and then throws them out in a nearby apartment complex.

[00:28:32] Now, since then, Aguirre has stopped cooperating.

[00:28:35] He will not talk to TBI.

[00:28:39] Vargas did talk to law enforcement in the past.

[00:28:41] There's not even any clue about who this unidentified Hispanic man is or, you know, if he's even real.

[00:28:47] And TBI at this point believes that foul play was involved.

[00:28:50] So what do you make of all of this?

[00:28:52] Isn't this just completely like...

[00:28:55] It's crazy.

[00:28:56] It's really a wild story.

[00:28:59] What do you think about Aguirre?

[00:29:02] He's kind of all over this thing with Nico and then he's subsequently busted for rape.

[00:29:07] What do you think about that?

[00:29:10] It's such a bizarre story.

[00:29:13] You said a listener sent this to us?

[00:29:14] Yes.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:15] Thank you to that listener.

[00:29:17] Yeah.

[00:29:18] It's a fascinating case.

[00:29:19] I really feel that it's very concerning.

[00:29:22] And the fact that Nico's never resurfaced, you know, even if he went to Franklin totally willingly, it seems like something very bad happened to him there.

[00:29:32] And I can understand why they're treating it as a homicide at this point.

[00:29:37] And I'm not saying Aguirre is responsible for what happened to him.

[00:29:41] It seems like, you know, maybe or maybe not.

[00:29:43] But the fact of the matter is, I think a lot of these people know more than they're saying.

[00:29:47] And that's what Nico's mom, Monica Button, who's been advocating for him for years, has said.

[00:29:53] She attended Aguirre's trial.

[00:29:55] She's very hopeful that now that he's going behind bars that other people will come forward and saying, like, now that I'm not worried about this guy, I'll tell you what I know.

[00:30:03] And I certainly hope that happens because sometimes that's all.

[00:30:08] Sometimes someone going to prison is what it takes for a case to kind of come open because people are less scared at that point.

[00:30:16] And if you happen to have a tip and I don't cops really don't need like investigative suggestions where people are saying, hey, try genetic genealogy.

[00:30:25] But for people who are in Franklin who might know people who are involved, like spread the word.

[00:30:30] And if people end up having some kind of relevant information, the way you submit that is 1-800-TBI-FIND.

[00:30:39] That's T-B-I-F-I-N-D.

[00:30:41] Or submit a tip to the email tips2tbi at tn.gov.

[00:30:49] And, yeah, that's that saga.

[00:30:52] I really my heart goes out to Nico's family and I hope they get some answers.

[00:30:57] So I want to move on and talk about a case out of Minnesota.

[00:31:01] This is an appellate decision.

[00:31:03] And our source for this was that appellate decision and also a terrific story summarizing that appellate decision that I found on Fox 9.

[00:31:14] And I talk about this because obviously we've covered the Richard Allen case a lot.

[00:31:20] And people always are trying to create the impression, oh, there might be a new trial there because of an appeal.

[00:31:27] I don't think there will be.

[00:31:28] You know, spoiler alert.

[00:31:29] I don't think there will be a new trial in the Richard Allen case.

[00:31:32] But people who think that might be a possibility are interested in that process.

[00:31:41] And I thought it might be interesting to look at a case where a new trial is going to be granted because a conviction got overturned.

[00:31:52] This is a murder conviction.

[00:31:54] As I said, it's in Minneapolis.

[00:31:56] A man named Deandra Turner was convicted of shooting and killing Drew McGinley back in June of 2021.

[00:32:06] And appellate judge Cochran was the gentleman who overturned that decision.

[00:32:13] And I'm going to quote from this article.

[00:32:18] Quote, appellate judge Cochran overturned the conviction citing evidentiary errors and prosecutorial misconduct.

[00:32:25] The decision noted that the state's case was weak with no forensic evidence presented, no gun, no DNA and reliance on grainy surveillance footage.

[00:32:36] Additionally, the state improperly used an out of court statement where its sole witness identified the shooter at the suggestion of a police sergeant.

[00:32:44] Quote, in court, that witness denied knowing who fired the fatal shot.

[00:32:48] Unquote.

[00:32:50] So for me, the biggest thing there is that part of the end about the out of court statement where a person was led to make an identification of the shooter, which then that person didn't stand by in court.

[00:33:02] Do you have any thoughts as to why an out of court statement may not be as relevant as an in court statement?

[00:33:10] It's not under oath.

[00:33:12] Exactly.

[00:33:13] I got it.

[00:33:15] She's pretty sharp, folks.

[00:33:18] Well, I mean, it's yeah, it's just sort of like when people like oftentimes I think in true crime, there's a lot of emphasis put on things that happen out of court and that will never be allowed in court.

[00:33:32] People might be, you know, this guy's Facebook's pretty weird.

[00:33:34] And it's like that's not going to get introduced unless it's directly relevant.

[00:33:38] So, you know.

[00:33:39] And also, as Anya mentioned, in court is sworn.

[00:33:42] So if I go out and I buy a fedora and I wear it and I say, Anya, what do you think of my fedora?

[00:33:48] She's like, Kevin, that looks good.

[00:33:50] I would not be that nice about it.

[00:33:53] You say, Kevin, that fedora looks good.

[00:33:55] But then let's say later on that becomes a contentious matter that's taken to court.

[00:34:01] And Anya is takes an oath to tell the truth.

[00:34:05] Prosecution calls Anya Kane.

[00:34:06] I smirk at you.

[00:34:07] I look like a dork.

[00:34:36] Yeah.

[00:34:37] It didn't happen.

[00:34:38] It didn't happen.

[00:34:39] It was just supposed to be an example.

[00:34:41] I'm furious.

[00:34:42] Why would you do this to us?

[00:34:47] Anya is so, so confused.

[00:34:48] It's so realistic.

[00:34:48] It's so realistic.

[00:34:49] I could see it.

[00:34:50] Anyways, go ahead.

[00:34:53] It's my special fedora I got for my birthday.

[00:34:55] Oh, now I feel bad.

[00:34:57] But that's not all to get back to the case.

[00:35:01] Cochran also raised some other issues.

[00:35:03] For instance, attorneys, quote, attorneys referring to witnesses who did not testify.

[00:35:09] Anya, why would that be a problem?

[00:35:11] Oh, I don't know, Kevin.

[00:35:13] My little layperson brain can't even handle that one.

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:16] I mean, because obviously they didn't testify.

[00:35:18] So what happens, a trial is supposed to be what happens in court.

[00:35:22] It's not supposed to be some sort of like kitchen sink, like let's bring in everything.

[00:35:28] Like think about it this way.

[00:35:29] If you've ever argued with a loved one or a spouse, it's better to kind of be like, hey,

[00:35:33] this thing you did was problematic in this way and let's talk about it.

[00:35:37] You don't say like, hey, remember that thing you did three years ago that has nothing to

[00:35:41] do with this?

[00:35:42] Yeah, that really, you know, ground my gears.

[00:35:44] You have to, there's limits to what is relevant in a court case, what's entered into evidence,

[00:35:50] what has merit.

[00:35:52] That's what's supposed to matter.

[00:35:53] And the entire world of evidence that the jurors are supposed to consider is what is admitted

[00:35:59] in court and what witnesses who come to court say.

[00:36:02] If I'm trying to convince Anya that my fedora is a good idea and I say, oh, Anya, everybody

[00:36:07] down at McDonald's loved it.

[00:36:10] Sounds about right.

[00:36:12] Hanging out at the McDonald's, peacocking around in your fedora.

[00:36:16] That's where you've been instead of working.

[00:36:21] Next, the prosecutor claimed that defendant Turner was, quote, drunk and probably high

[00:36:28] without proof.

[00:36:30] Oh, I mean, why would that be a problem?

[00:36:32] I mean, because you can't just say things in court.

[00:36:37] You can't just say, you know, you can't just make claims without evidence.

[00:36:43] I mean, you can like the, okay, the area where it gets a little bit, in my understanding,

[00:36:50] more of a gray area, you can make arguments in your closing argument.

[00:36:53] Like you can argue things.

[00:36:54] Like you can say, well, this is what the evidence shows and get a little bit more loosey-goosey

[00:37:00] there.

[00:37:01] But even that, like you can't just then say whatever you want.

[00:37:07] There's rules.

[00:37:08] I mean, what people don't understand, like a trial is not a free-for-all.

[00:37:12] A trial is not the shootout at the OK Corral where people are just doing whatever.

[00:37:17] It's not a bar fight.

[00:37:19] It's, it, there are rules of what you can and can't do, what can and can't be admitted

[00:37:24] as evidence, what the jury can and cannot hear.

[00:37:28] It's all very tightly choreographed.

[00:37:30] And the choreography notes are like, you know, all of the legal decisions and all the other

[00:37:36] court cases and what have been established as trial rules in whatever state you're dealing

[00:37:40] with.

[00:37:41] It's all very buttoned up.

[00:37:43] And it's not just about like, you know, freestyle, let's, you know, do a dance off to determine

[00:37:49] this guy's guilt.

[00:37:49] It's like you have to do, you know, I mean, like you have to follow the rules.

[00:37:53] So I think people kind of miss that because they're used to a lot of like courtroom dramas

[00:37:59] where people are standing up and doing whatever.

[00:38:01] And that's just not how it works.

[00:38:03] Exactly.

[00:38:04] Uh, the final thing cited in this article is that the, uh, prosecute, the prosecutor also

[00:38:11] insinuated the defendant Turner was in a gang again without offering proof.

[00:38:17] So yeah.

[00:38:19] So there's a lot of problems with this trial.

[00:38:22] Seems like it.

[00:38:23] So that is the level of things you need for a case to be overturned.

[00:38:29] And so this case was thrown out.

[00:38:30] And so now the prosecutors, prosecutors in the case are going to have to make the decision

[00:38:34] whether or not to retry it.

[00:38:36] And it is a shame because this, uh, the victim, uh, Mr. McGinley was someone who was a very

[00:38:42] valued part of the community and then the community really lost someone special when he was murdered.

[00:38:49] And so everybody who cared about him and who loved him and misses him deserves justice.

[00:38:56] Yeah.

[00:38:56] They're going to have to go through this whole ordeal again.

[00:38:58] And, um, you know, it's, it, that's why it's especially important for prosecutors to have

[00:39:05] a really buttoned up case where they're not just throwing in.

[00:39:08] Honestly, like it's, it's as important of what you don't include in your case is what

[00:39:14] you do include.

[00:39:14] Right.

[00:39:15] Because you don't want to include something that's going to lead to a mistrial or, or

[00:39:20] a successful appeal.

[00:39:22] Um, it, it, like, you don't like, like, it's sort of like when we talk about like, you know,

[00:39:27] when we've used like kitchen examples, but when you're like making a meal, you don't just

[00:39:31] like dump in everything in your kitchen because like you might have like rat poison in there.

[00:39:35] Like, like you, you want to be very selective about your ingredients.

[00:39:39] Yes.

[00:39:40] Yes.

[00:39:41] As we learned when you made corn pone.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:43] That corn pone was fine.

[00:39:45] And I'm sorry that you got your hopes up for it to a, to an insane degree that you thought

[00:39:51] it was going to be some magical thing, but it was fine.

[00:39:55] It was fine.

[00:39:56] There was no rat poison in the corn pone.

[00:39:58] Good Lord.

[00:39:59] Good Lord.

[00:40:01] Talking about kitchen sinking.

[00:40:03] Sad glimpse into our life.

[00:40:08] And you know what?

[00:40:09] You were just as responsible for that corn pone.

[00:40:12] How so?

[00:40:13] You were participating in the creation of it.

[00:40:16] It wasn't just me.

[00:40:18] Freaking corn pone.

[00:40:20] And you were the one who really wanted to, oh my, anyway, let's move on.

[00:40:25] Let the corn pone go.

[00:40:27] Yeah, I'm letting it go.

[00:40:30] Uh, listeners to the cheat sheet probably know that I always get in trouble when I pick

[00:40:36] cases based on the headlines.

[00:40:38] And, uh, I apologize in advance because that happened again this week when I look at a case

[00:40:44] out of Oregon.

[00:40:45] The headline was alien chasers offer hints in decades long quest to solve, quote, longest

[00:40:54] running murder mystery.

[00:40:56] How could you resist that?

[00:40:57] But I see longest running murder mystery.

[00:41:00] Uh, obviously I'm going to click and then when, uh, I see what it is about.

[00:41:05] And this, by the way, is a story that appeared on Fox News.

[00:41:09] Uh, but when I see that headline, I'm going to click and it's, it, it's not really a mystery

[00:41:18] and it's not really murder.

[00:41:20] Wow.

[00:41:20] So I'm really glad you picked it for our show that focuses on murders and mysteries.

[00:41:25] It's a cattle mutilation story.

[00:41:28] What?

[00:41:29] So, so, so have you heard about the cattle mutilation story?

[00:41:33] Can you murder a cow?

[00:41:35] It's mutilation.

[00:41:36] Okay.

[00:41:37] But then why does the headline say that?

[00:41:39] Well, as I said, it's not really a murder.

[00:41:42] So there have been stories going around for decades, which you may or may not heard of in which animals,

[00:41:54] usually some form of cattle are alleged to have been not only killed, but also their bodies to have been mutilated.

[00:42:01] Uh, these stories have gone on for decades, decades, decades.

[00:42:07] I think they really first started gaining real prominence in the late sixties or early seventies.

[00:42:13] And at that time people began offering the theory, well, maybe what's going on is, uh, it's a cult or maybe it's aliens from deep space.

[00:42:23] And I say aliens from deep space to justify the title of this episode or something of that nature.

[00:42:32] And it's, it's not.

[00:42:33] And one thing to note too, is that when a story, if you were to see a newspaper story or a television story that says, oh, there's a lot of cattle mutilations taking place in Columbus, Indiana,

[00:42:46] then other people are going to see that story and they say, oh, also I'm seeing something similar in another part of Indiana.

[00:42:53] And so when people see something that's happened once they start seeing it everywhere.

[00:42:59] And so there would be like a cluster of reports.

[00:43:03] They end up getting kind of debunked and then they go away for a while.

[00:43:07] And I think we're also going to include a link in our show notes to, uh, an article from the skeptics dictionary, which I thought did a great job of discussing all of this.

[00:43:23] Essentially in most instances, what it is, is just natural predators.

[00:43:28] Yes.

[00:43:29] Predators, obviously duh.

[00:43:31] Like literally.

[00:43:32] And scientists have been able to, oh, somebody says, oh, look, here is a cow with certain cuts and stuff on it and certain organs missing.

[00:43:43] It must be aliens.

[00:43:45] And then scientists will be able to say, well, here's another cow with those exact same markings.

[00:43:51] And look, we, we know exactly how it happened.

[00:43:54] It was natural predators.

[00:43:55] And generally speaking, if there's two possible explanations for something, and one involves rewriting the law of physics to include aliens visiting from outer space to come and mysteriously meal like cattle.

[00:44:08] And the other one is just based on normal earthly creatures doing normal earthly things.

[00:44:13] We can be pretty assured that the explanation that is true is the one involving normal earthly creatures doing normal earthly things.

[00:44:20] Yes.

[00:44:20] Well said, sir.

[00:44:22] Well reasoned.

[00:44:23] Had you been, had you heard these kind of mutilation stories over the years?

[00:44:27] No, honestly, aliens, aliens visiting Earth has never really held that much excitement for me.

[00:44:34] I don't know why.

[00:44:35] I, I, I, that's, I definitely enjoy like unsolved mysteries and kind of, even some of the more, you know, like, I don't, I don't know if that's considered paranormal, but like, that's kind of fun.

[00:44:45] Even though I don't believe in any of it.

[00:44:47] But, but it's, it's not, you know, and it's like, and there's also, yeah, why are they coming here to mutilate cattle when they could do anything else?

[00:44:54] You know, like it raises questions.

[00:44:56] But it always just seemed like, I don't know, any, any probably person working in the cattle business can tell you that there would be predators that could do this to their cattle.

[00:45:06] And, you know, that's a problem for them and it's part of the business and you got to watch out for it.

[00:45:12] And that's why there's like pest management stuff.

[00:45:14] And it's also interesting, certainly recently in the Richard Allen case, we saw a lot of instances of reporters getting details wrong, sometimes minor details, sometimes big details.

[00:45:26] When stories of these cattle mutilations happen, there was invariably huge details to get reported incorrectly to make it seem more mysterious than it really is.

[00:45:36] And if you go back to the primary sources, there's really not a mystery there.

[00:45:41] It's just generally natural predators and people see it.

[00:45:45] They all, it's a mysterious cattle mutilation because I don't know anything about cattle.

[00:45:50] And maybe like, I don't know.

[00:45:51] Like, I think you see a newspaper article saying, oh, cattle mutilation is happening.

[00:45:54] And then you see something that you think is similar.

[00:45:56] Oh no, it's a wave.

[00:45:57] It's a cluster.

[00:45:58] It's all happening now.

[00:45:59] And I like, I should also say, like, I think I probably contributed to that because I think I really freaked out a guy at McDonald's today.

[00:46:06] Yeah, because Anya has a touching lack of faith in me.

[00:46:10] Again, we had one of our special lunches at McDonald's.

[00:46:14] Wow, how romantic.

[00:46:15] Well, I don't want to spoil you too much.

[00:46:18] And we're walking out of McDonald's and Anya says, I want to make sure you cover this with respect, this cattle mutilation thing.

[00:46:26] She said, cattle mutilation isn't funny.

[00:46:29] She says it very loudly.

[00:46:31] And a man near us is like turns his head and just looks at us.

[00:46:36] I didn't even notice that.

[00:46:38] So did you think I was going to come up here and do a comedy routine making fun of dead cows?

[00:46:43] Well, after your big fedora routine, I don't know.

[00:46:46] A lot of the trust is gone.

[00:46:50] Anya, you had the McDonald's remark prior to any talk of fedoras.

[00:46:55] I don't know.

[00:46:56] Well, it's those poor animals, you know?

[00:46:58] But I mean, I just didn't know because you were like, ooh, I have a case.

[00:47:03] Aliens.

[00:47:03] And I was like, oh, God, what is this going to be?

[00:47:05] That's not what I said.

[00:47:06] Well, that was the vibe.

[00:47:09] Ooh, aliens, Anya.

[00:47:12] We got to go back to not talking to each other about the kids.

[00:47:16] About it at all.

[00:47:16] Or the ass.

[00:47:18] On the podcast.

[00:47:22] Well, you'll do your episodes.

[00:47:23] I'll do my episodes.

[00:47:25] There's lots of icy silences.

[00:47:26] We could do it like, you know, you love that.

[00:47:28] No, you hate that Frank Sinatra album duets where they would record the duets.

[00:47:33] Like Frank Sinatra would record his part of the duet and then the other artists would record theirs.

[00:47:38] And, you know, we could do that.

[00:47:41] No.

[00:47:42] I'm not being serious.

[00:47:44] That's not practical.

[00:47:45] And also we enjoy one another's company.

[00:47:48] Do we?

[00:47:48] No, we do.

[00:47:50] We're just joking around, guys.

[00:47:52] Don't worry about it.

[00:47:53] Our listeners are like, what the hell is going on?

[00:47:55] Well, I'll tell you what the hell is going on if you want me to speak like you and swear like a sailor.

[00:48:04] Christmas.

[00:48:04] Christmas is going on.

[00:48:05] And it's the season where carolers come to your door bedecked in lovely Christmas murder sheet T-shirts, which are identical to regular T-shirts.

[00:48:15] Also, you have under the tree.

[00:48:20] Don't you put things under the tree?

[00:48:21] Yeah.

[00:48:22] What better to put under the tree than a T-shirt?

[00:48:24] Exactly.

[00:48:25] Know what else you can do with the tree?

[00:48:27] You can throw a T-shirt on it.

[00:48:29] Like, so you're going to put a murder sheet T-shirt on the Christmas tree?

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:34] Why don't you get like one of the extra largest?

[00:48:36] And that could be like a Christmas tradition for you and your loved ones.

[00:48:39] You can have your child whose little Timmy is going to put the murder sheet T-shirt on the Christmas tree this year.

[00:48:46] And that's how we really know the holiday has begun.

[00:48:49] And we're really thrilled to be a part of all your holiday traditions.

[00:48:52] That's how your family members know you've really lost it.

[00:48:55] So you can buy these shirts from us for the holidays.

[00:48:58] I love that.

[00:49:00] What if a caroler comes to your door and they're not dressed in a murder sheet T-shirt?

[00:49:03] Well, you could have like a little box of them and say, here, here, caroler.

[00:49:08] Now you fit in with the others.

[00:49:09] Sort of like a modified trick-or-treating suggestion.

[00:49:12] Like, I remember you had your infamous trick-or-treat ideas.

[00:49:15] Now you're bringing it to Christmas.

[00:49:17] I'm all about bringing people together.

[00:49:19] Yeah.

[00:49:20] Making people feel included.

[00:49:23] And the way to do that, the murder sheet T-shirts, which you can wear.

[00:49:27] If a person in this great land of ours wanted to procure a murder sheet T-shirt, where could they go?

[00:49:35] Are you asking me during your ad?

[00:49:37] Okay.

[00:49:37] So it's murder sheetshop.com.

[00:49:40] Dot com.

[00:49:42] Just go there.

[00:49:43] All of your murder sheet T-shirt needs are there for you.

[00:49:48] There to be met.

[00:49:49] There to be met.

[00:49:51] There to be met, indeed.

[00:49:52] They're waiting for you.

[00:49:54] Your needs are there waiting for you.

[00:49:57] Maybe you didn't even realize what the shirt looks like.

[00:49:59] You want to see what the shirt looks like.

[00:50:01] You want to procure a shirt.

[00:50:03] Probably a good idea before you put it on your family tree.

[00:50:09] Isn't there a murder sheet T-shirt on our tree?

[00:50:12] Yeah, of course.

[00:50:14] I wouldn't make something up like that just to try to sell a T-shirt.

[00:50:21] What about people who don't have a Christmas tree who celebrate a different holiday this

[00:50:24] time of year or just the tree is too much hassle right now?

[00:50:27] What can they do?

[00:50:29] Well, you can buy, I think, a T-shirt holder and just display the T-shirt itself with like

[00:50:36] lights on it.

[00:50:37] Maybe like a mannequin or something.

[00:50:39] Just set up a mannequin with the shirt.

[00:50:41] No one will worry about you.

[00:50:43] No one will think something's very wrong.

[00:50:46] I got to tell you, even for me, you're verging into creepy territory.

[00:50:51] You're wanting people to buy a mannequin and put our shirt on.

[00:50:58] That's just disturbing.

[00:50:59] And I think it's safe to push the button in this.

[00:51:03] All right.

[00:51:04] Thanks, everybody.

[00:51:06] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Shade.

[00:51:09] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at

[00:51:16] gmail.com.

[00:51:18] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate

[00:51:24] authorities.

[00:51:26] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:51:36] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com

[00:51:45] slash murdersheet.

[00:51:47] We very much appreciate any support.

[00:51:50] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and

[00:51:56] who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:52:00] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the

[00:52:05] Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:52:08] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:52:14] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot

[00:52:19] of messages.

[00:52:20] Thanks again for listening.

[00:52:22] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:52:29] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's

[00:52:34] wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:52:36] This show is phenomenal.

[00:52:39] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health,

[00:52:44] stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[00:52:50] This is a show for you.

[00:52:51] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones

[00:52:57] have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with

[00:53:04] interesting life experiences.

[00:53:07] And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer,

[00:53:12] where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions

[00:53:16] along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:53:19] I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just

[00:53:24] hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability

[00:53:29] as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:53:34] On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:53:38] Yes.

[00:53:38] He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:53:41] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking

[00:53:47] to people whenever I want.

[00:53:49] It's a really terrific show.

[00:53:50] We really recommend it highly.

[00:53:53] Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:53:54] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:53:57] He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:53:58] We've been on his show.

[00:54:00] He's a terrific guest.

[00:54:01] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember

[00:54:05] when Jason said this.

[00:54:07] That really resonated.

[00:54:08] Like, I do quote him in a conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different

[00:54:13] complicated issues.

[00:54:14] She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:54:14] I do.

[00:54:15] I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:54:16] That was so right.

[00:54:17] So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think and you like us, you I think you should

[00:54:21] give it a shot.

[00:54:22] Give it a try.

[00:54:23] I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:54:24] And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar

[00:54:27] theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health,

[00:54:33] wellness, things like that.

[00:54:35] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very

[00:54:39] nice.

[00:54:40] And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion

[00:54:45] and empathy to it.

[00:54:46] But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out

[00:54:49] by true crime.

[00:54:50] I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can can be nice to listen to in

[00:54:55] a podcast.

[00:54:57] It's compassionate.

[00:54:58] It's affirming.

[00:54:59] But I also want to emphasize it's smart people.

[00:55:05] Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[00:55:08] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:55:11] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:55:14] Yeah.

[00:55:14] And he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:55:16] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:55:17] We're really we're fans of the show.

[00:55:19] We love it.

[00:55:19] And we would strongly encourage you all just check it out.

[00:55:22] Download some episodes.

[00:55:23] Listen, I think you'll you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:55:27] But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:55:32] Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:55:33] Very easy to find.

[00:55:34] Absolutely.