The Cheat Sheet: Detention and Disconnection

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Content Warning, this episode includes discussion of suicide as well as crimes against children and murder.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Two of our cases that we selected for today are actually cases with a connection to the state of Hawaii.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So one takes place in Hawaii, the other is kind of more of spans Hawaii to California and maybe even an international angle at this point.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We're also doing a case based in Kansas and one based in Indianapolis, Indiana in our backyard.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Cheat Sheet. Detention and Disconnection.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really off my game with that awkward pause before the intro, but you know, it's December.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We're kind of winding down for the year, so...

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You're keeping it real.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Keeping it real.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Trying to reflect.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, let's get to it.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So this first case, my source for this was the Honolulu Civil Beat, which is a great publication.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, before we get to that, I thought you wanted to...

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I know. Now, I'm messing up...

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Anya is really off her game.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: She wanted to keep thinking. She wanted to start off a little bit closer to her.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. That... This is... I'm sorry, everybody. This is... This is just... This is how things are.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I did want to mention something. It's kind of cool.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So our hometown paper, I guess, is the Indianapolis Star, which is a great local newspaper.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're in the Indianapolis area, you should definitely subscribe.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And they actually interviewed us for a recent piece on true crime.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And they also interviewed our friends, Brett and Alice, from The Prosecutors.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They had some great quotes.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's all about the impact of the sort of true crime industrial complex, as I call it, on the Delphi murders case and how that can maybe come from an understandable place, but certainly impacts real people.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll include a link to the article, and we would strongly encourage people to read it.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We think it's really good.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It made a number of interesting points, and it's possible it may have made a few criticisms of some people in this space.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: As it should. And I think it's just a necessary conversation, and this is something that it's people's lives.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like we're all debating about a football game or something, where it's like, you know, if you like the Chiefs or if you like the Colts, that's your call.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a good time.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, no one's right or wrong.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure a lot of football people are getting angry at me right now.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's kind of your opinion.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But when we're talking about stuff as serious as the murder of children, then I think it behooves us as a true crime community to mature out of some of the nonsense that we've been seeing lately and to kind of put on a professional, you know, attitude about what we're doing.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And that means having boundaries.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That means having some kind of codes of conduct, I think.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And we haven't seen that yet, but we'd love to see it.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: An article is in the Indianapolis Star.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, it is behind a paywall.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to pay for it if you want to read it.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a good article.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: There's also – I love pictures of Anya.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a picture of Anya in there.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's not a selling point.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's a –

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a selling point for people.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very nice of you.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's – what you want is the content, the actual reporting.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, if you're in Indiana, then it can't hurt to subscribe to the Indianapolis Star.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of –

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: If not, I think you have to pay like a dollar.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's worth it just to see that picture of Anya.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my gosh.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop overselling it.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not – like – you're so ridiculous.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not wearing a hat in the picture, unfortunately.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, it's great.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Shall we move on?

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think we shall.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So next is a case out of Hawaii that we covered in the past.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We have two Hawaii-related cases that we're going to start off with.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And both of them are updates because we have covered them before.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The first one involves a man named Mike Miske, as Anya mentioned earlier.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: A great source for this is Hawaii Civil Beat, which has covered this story incredibly well.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And probably their best reporter on the Mike Miske story has been Ian Lind.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We interviewed Ian on this very program about this crazy case, this complicated case involving Mike Miske.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Anya, who is Mike Miske?

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike Miske – and I can say this because he was convicted of these charges – but he is essentially a crime lord.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike Miske Jr. is a crime lord in – or was a crime lord in Hawaii.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I.e. he operated for years.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: His sort of ostensible day job was running an extermination company.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But in reality, he was doing a lot of crimes and kidnapping and threatening people.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps his most serious crime is that his son Caleb was killed in a car accident.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: There was another young man in the vehicle, Jonathan Frazier.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And Miske came to believe that Jonathan Frazier was driving and was responsible for his son's death.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So in – around July 30th, 2016, Frazier is last seen.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He's never seen again.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: His body is never found, but he is presumed to have been murdered.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was one of the charges that Miske got hit with.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: He essentially disappeared this man out of revenge.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So he did a lot of pretty horrible things.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean like –

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like a nightclub gas attack.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I was about to say that he like –

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He like gassed a nightclub that was like a rival nightclub.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you got to listen to this episode with Ian.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Ian does a great job at breaking it all down, explaining it.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He covered that trial in depth.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: There were a number of federal charges.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So this was a very long trial.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of charges.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean to give you a sense like sometimes like – you read about something like this and it almost made me think like – like when you read about like corruption in the like 1930s in like Chicago where it's like someone's just doing all this crazy stuff and you're like how could you get away for it – away with it for that long?

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of the stuff Miske was doing in Hawaii, in Oahu specifically.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So he – the trial lasted I believe seven or eight months.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It lasted a long time and the reason for that is because a lot of charges and they were incredibly complicated.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And Ian did an amazing job.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he attended a big chunk of that trial.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He wrote about it.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an amazing case.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So he is convicted and he was scheduled to be sentenced I believe in January.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: This holiday season, give yourself and those you love the gift of fun, creativity, relaxation, or better sleep.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Give them the gift of Via Hemp.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Via Hemp is a company that crafts premium award-winning THC and THC-free gummies and vapes, topicals, and drops.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: All created with a specific mood or goal in mind.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and this is all from hemp grown on American farms.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're over 21, treat yourself to 15% off with our exclusive code, IMSHEAT, at viahemp.com.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: If THC isn't for you, that's okay.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Via also has terrific CBD products too.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite may be Zen because it helps me drift to sleep after a stressful day.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's CBD and CBN and it's also so relaxing.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Give Via a try.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you want to get creative, get rest, get pleasure, or get into micro dosing.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: These are affordable, excellent products.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Plus, you get a special discount as a murder sheet listener.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEAT to receive 15% off.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That's V-I-I-A-HEMP.com and use code MSHEAT at checkout.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: This holiday season, enhance your every day with Via.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Tis the season for gift giving, so support our wonderful new sponsor, Quince, and get yourself some affordable, high-quality gifts.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Quince is a company that specializes in making the finer things in life, cashmere, gold, Italian handbags, affordable on any budget.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: All items are priced $50 to $80 less than similar brands.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Their wonderful line of Mongolian cashmere sweaters starts at just $50.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They pulled this off by cutting out the middleman and partnering directly with ethical, safe, and responsible factories.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We recently gave ourselves the gift of Quince.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin got their suede bomber jacket.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so comfortable and warm, and I think he looks really cute wearing it.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I myself got a black Mongolian cashmere v-neck sweater and a dark blue Mongolian cashmere turtleneck sweater.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really struck by the softness of the fabric.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I also really like the way I look in these pieces, which for me is a big coup.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Quince also has 14-karat gold jewelry, Italian leather handbags, and European linen sheet sets.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Give the gift of luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Go to quince.com slash msheet for 365-day returns, plus get free shipping on your order.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Quince.com slash msheet.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: What happened?

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, to talk about what happened next, we have to go back a little bit.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So since his arrest in 2020, I believe it was July 15th, MISC has been in the federal detention center in Honolulu.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And on Sunday, which was, I guess, December 1st, MISC was found dead in his cell.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And this was confirmed to the civil beat by Assistant U.S. Attorney Ken Sorenson.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not clear at this point what exactly happened, but sources are saying that it's suicide.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously this is very troubling because, you know, part of being incarcerated, people are supposed to be kept safe from other inmates and themselves.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So whenever you have something like a suicide or an attack or a homicide within a detention center, that's a failure on the part of the government to ensure that things like that are not happening.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's concerning no matter who's doing it.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And as you, Anya, and as all of our listeners are well aware, when something like this happens, it gives rise to conspiracy theories.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Who I remember when Jeffrey Epstein was found dead in a cell, there were all sorts of theories and speculations that it was actually a murder.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I took a cruise through Hawaii Reddit and Hawaii other social media.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: People are already speculating that his death was not a suicide.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It was probably, oh, he had information on higher-ups that he was going to reveal the sensing or this or that.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think one thing to remember, and I've said this on the program before, that generally speaking, when you have a mystery, the dullest possible explanation is usually the accurate explanation.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the dullest explanation here is that it was, in fact, suicide, that this man perhaps just didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison, didn't want to have to spend decades in prison.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So he took this way out.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: With that said, there will be an investigation.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: There should be an investigation, not only to determine what exactly happened, but more importantly, to determine how it happened.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I say determining how it happened is more important because we don't want prisoners doing this to themselves.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want prisoners killing themselves.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if we are able to figure out how it happened in this instance, then that's something we can change so that other prisoners don't do this.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I said, you know, people can feel the way they feel about Miski, but he's still a human being.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's that this isn't supposed to happen when one is incarcerated and it's concerning.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully this robust, hopefully the investigation will be robust and really get into, you know, how this happens so it can be prevented and that, you know, more measures can be taken.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's kind of it for Miski.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Wanted to update everyone on that.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Another kind of Hawaii connected case.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Hannah Kobayashi.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: What source did you find most useful to discuss this?

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I used NBC as well as USA Today.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They've been there's been a lot of national coverage on this case and we briefly covered it on a cheat sheet, I think, back when it was first happening.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's been so many developments.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really kind of exploded as one of those cases that feels like it has gotten that kind of wave of national attention.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you go back to the beginning and remind us who she is and what the initial story was and then we can get into some of the developments?

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So Hannah Kobayashi is a 31 year old, sorry, 30 year old woman from the island of Maui in Hawaii.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was basically she left Hawaii and went to Los Angeles on November 8th.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically there's a lot of kind of.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, confusion or or at least, you know, what her family has claimed publicly is that she was supposed to then from Los Angeles take a connecting flight to New York City.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And that she had plans to do this, but she did not get on that flight.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's possible that she never intended to.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, so she stays in Los Angeles and her family becomes concerned.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: She stays in contact with them for a number of days.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Last contacts them on November 11th.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And they felt that her messages were bizarre and concerning.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was talking about like deep fakes and like, you know, people stealing from her.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, understandable concern there.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They file a missing persons report.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the tragedy is compounded.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're looking for her.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: People are analyzing all these feeds of like she might be spotted here.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Here is becoming like it's a real thing on social media.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And people really get involved in this and the family even sets up a fund for people to donate to, to help cover some of the financial costs of their search.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, November 24th, as I mentioned, the tragedy is compounded because Hannah's father was found dead near the Los Angeles airport.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And seemingly that's a that's a suicide.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously very tragic.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of speculation about why he did this or why he might have done that.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to dwell.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to dwell too much on that.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say that the family says that basically they believe he died of a broken heart.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So the family, to be clear, you know, because, again, conspiracy theories when stuff like this, you know, what was he getting too close to the truth?

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: The family seems to accept that this was unfortunately a death by suicide.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, from there, there's been lately something that developed that I mean, I hope.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Can can shed clarity?

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Can it offer some clarity here or at least, you know, as much as possible?

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the Los Angeles Police Department has come up, come out with they have footage of Kobayashi walking across the border to from the United States to Mexico on November 12th.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is like the day after she last contacts her family.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She goes to Mexico.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: What they say about this footage is that she's alone.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: She has her luggage.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: She does not appear to be.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Coerced or, you know, not like a strange man with her forcing her along.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: This is.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So, in other words, to draw the obvious, obvious conclusion, what they're saying is she was not forced to do this.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: She chose to go to Mexico on her own.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And presumably as part of that decision, she decided not to be maintaining contact with her family.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a difficult, this is a difficult thing because if you're the family, that doesn't make anything better.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You're still like, what the heck is going on?

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really concerned.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like this person to not contact us.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to know what's going on.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But from the perspective of the law and law enforcement and, you know, how our society works, she's 30 years old and she can do whatever she wants.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's no like no one can call the police on you for not calling your mom.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and that's just bluntly how it should be.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's living in a free society.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to we don't need to check in with police to leave the country unless I guess, you know, it's like some parole situation.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But like, you know, that's kind of that's kind of it.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's if that's the case and, you know, I'm sure there's some people like, well, it could still be some kind of like she's in danger.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But like the evidence seems to point away from that.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's best at this point maybe give her and the family some privacy unless some new information comes forward that really turns everything on its head.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is this is something that's captured the imagination.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: She's a you know, she's a very pretty woman who has gone missing and it's kind of under mysterious circumstances.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's kind of a an angle on social media where it's like we can all help by reviewing the footage and seeing if we see her.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But at this point, it kind of feels like maybe the best thing to do is kind of move on and let this family.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of, you know, maybe maybe there can be I mean, like you made the comment to me.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: She may not even necessarily.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Know that this is.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so much we don't know here.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember recently, as you all are well aware, I covered this Delphi murder trial.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And during that trial, we were so wrapped up in that a lot of stuff was going on that we just weren't aware of.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And if there's stuff in Hannah's life that is going on that made her go to Mexico or whatever, maybe she's just so involved with that that she is not even aware of the search going on.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And if she's in another country, I don't know how much this story has been covered in the Mexican media.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And actually of what the LAPD said was, you know, we've reviewed social media.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of someone who frequently posts about like wanting to disconnect, wanting to get away, wanting to leave her phone behind, wanting to kind of go go off and do her own thing for a while.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, it's obviously very tragic because there's been a death.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can certainly empathize and understand where the family is coming from, where they want to know.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They want to make sure she's OK.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't feel that this is normal behavior from her.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So they feel like we need to get involved and make sure there's nothing else going on.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no weird stuff going on.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: There's not any mental health issues going on.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, it's not that it's kind of up to Hannah Kobayashi to kind of be the one to say, this is what's happening.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just, you know, it's one of those kind of complicated cases.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think at this point, you know, stepping back from it and if there's no crime that was committed, that has to be something where we can, you know, say Hannah is making choices and kind of respect that to a certain extent.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But obviously very, very, very sad.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You ready to move to the next case?

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do it.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Next case comes out of Kansas.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And the source I used for that was not a media source at all.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It was the opinion of the Kansas Supreme Court.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And before I get into the facts of the case or the facts of the part of the case I want to discuss, let's talk about premeditation because premeditation is what this case is about.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So we as a society have decided that a crime is worse if it is premeditated and so deserves a higher level of punishment.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, for instance, if Anya is just wandering around in a grocery store she's wont to do and she happens to cross the cereal aisle and she sees a cereal box and on the picture of the box is some cartoon animal enjoying a bowl of hearty cereal with delicious milk and cream or whatever the heck she puts in her cereal.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And she is so enraptured by it she cannot help but grab that box of cereal and just run.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That is seen as being not as bad as if Anya was sitting at home coldly calculating and planning, oh, how can I steal this box of cereal?

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So planning it, thinking about it in advance, premeditating it, that is seen to make things worse.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes a lot of sense.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Intuitively, it's like, you know, something you do in the heat of a moment.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that was a really bad impulsive choice, but maybe, you know, it's not coldly calculating like planning something is.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I talked about planning stuff, but the fact is you don't even have to necessarily plan something for it to be premeditated.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious, just as a layperson, how much time or effort do you think is really required for something to be considered premeditation as opposed to heat of the moment?

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Not to get into like, I don't know, not to be too situational, but I do think it is somewhat situational.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like there's circumstances where you could probably describe something to me where there would not be a lot of forethought, but perhaps it would count as premeditation.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I just I think it really would depend.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't necessarily have a strong opinion on that, but that's just me as a as a layperson.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So you don't you don't you're not saying this anymore.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: A person has to plan or a person has to spend a day or two contemplating at all.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I understand that the law seeks to sort of define everything and and set like clear rules on everything to make it easier for lawyers like rules.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Lawyers love rules.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I understand that.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also frankly, lay people like rules because I can tell you when people go to lawyers and say, oh, what do I do here?

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Or what do you think about this?

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And the lawyer says, well, it depends.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: People don't like that.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: No, people don't like that at all.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: People don't like that at all.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: People want certainty.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But let me just say, like, at a certain point, doesn't certainty become just kind of stupid?

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, my gosh, I planned this murder for three minutes.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So that means I'm doing premeditation.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But no, I only did it for two minutes and 55 seconds.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So therefore, I'm in the clear.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in the clear.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that kind of feels stupid at some point to like put a barrier around something like that.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So this case involves Francisco Frankie Mendez, who fired a gun and he wounded a future NFL football player and actually murdered a university football player.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's awful.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so here is what happened.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And this group of people are kind of standing and talking to each other.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Mendez is in a car with a couple of other guys.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They pull up to this group, which includes the person who was wounded and the person who was murdered.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And they ask, oh, do you have any marijuana that you're giving us?

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And the group says, no, we're not going to do that.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then one of the guys says, well, what are your names?

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And the football player says, don't worry about our names.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So the car drives off or begins to drive off.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The football players get back to talking and then the car stops.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point, the guys in the car start shooting at the football players.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So whatever the provocation was, and it's a silly provocation, obviously, it was these football players not wanting to give these people in the car their names.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the car then drives off, but they have a few seconds to think about it and say, oh, I'm really upset about this.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when the decision is made to know we need to kill people because they didn't give us their names, which, again, is a silly and ridiculous reason to take someone's life.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And a young man named Dwayne Simmons was killed over this.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's abhorrent.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So as a layperson, do you think the fact that it took a few seconds for the people in the car to make the decision to start firing?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that enough premeditation?

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, OK.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, again, I said it before, maybe situational.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, to me, the fact that they started to drive away and then came back is interesting.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, I'm not – I don't really have a strong opinion on this.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really going to kind of come down on either side, to be honest.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess what I'm seeing is, like, on the one hand, it's only a few seconds.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not like they went home and then came back.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be very clear-cut premeditation.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That being said, it's also not as if these men refuse to give them their names and then Mendez opens fire at that moment.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: There is this kind of nebulous area where he drives away and then kind of is like, hmm, and then comes back.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I can kind of see both sides, I guess.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So he was convicted.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The judges who wrote this opinion for the Supreme Court write that the hallmark of premeditation is the internal second thought or the time it takes for a hesitation to arise.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They say the temporal space required to complete that process may be very short a mere hesitation.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And so to get back to the facts of this case, the fact that he did have enough time to drive off – and they say it was like maybe 5, 10, 15 seconds before they turned back around – that's enough time.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And Mendez was trying to argue, well, I didn't really have time to come and have a second thought because I was so preoccupied with driving that it just –

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Then why did you go back and shoot them would be the question.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So the judges say it just – all you need is just a few seconds.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to come up with an elaborate plan.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: If you just have enough time to consider it and if you hesitate just a moment, that's enough time to be considered premeditation.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So you in the grocery store, if you look at the cartoon on the front of the box of cereal and say, I need this box of cereal.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And they say, well, stealing a box of cereal and wrecking my reputation for just a bowl of cereal.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That's ridiculous.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And you start to walk away and you say, well, wait a minute.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: That's really good cereal.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And you turn back around and grab it.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be enough to change it into a premeditated crime.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I could see people having an issue with that.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it's like – it's almost like if he'd stood there for 10 seconds and then shot them, I think it would be a harder thing to argue because maybe he's just pausing and he's thinking about it.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But like the fact that he's making the choice, I'm driving away, I'm focused on driving, leaving now in my car, and then he turns around.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That – it's like you're doing one thing.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you're doing the other.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's – what do you think?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems very nebulous.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like this kind of area where you can understand why people have such a debate.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's at some time, at some point, if you continue to whittle down the amount of time needed for premeditation, it gets to the point – what's the point of having the distinction?

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if I decide to shoot somebody or steal some cereal like a second beforehand, it's – I don't know.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we all agree in my earlier example, if you go into the store and see the box of cereal, I got to have that cereal, and you grab it.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not as bad as you sitting at home and hatching a plan.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Planning a heist.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But is you – if you say, well, I need to have that cereal, well, no, it's a bad idea, and you start to walk away and say, no, I really want that cereal, and you grab it, is that so much worse?

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we were punishing people who, like, had more time to – you know, like, something that's just impulsive and random, which can also, you know, lead to a very heinous situation.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not in the cereal example, but yeah, it's – I don't know.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So remind me again, where is the court coming down here?

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like – did they overturn some things and not others?

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a complicated case.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: There were other charges that did get overturned, but they – the court said this was fine.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: They upheld this part of it.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're saying, yeah, this was premeditated.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly doesn't fit with what you think of when you think of a premeditated murder.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The court writes, quote, 10 to 15 seconds is enough time for Mendez to have had an internal second thought before stopping the car, looking back and firing, unquote.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But it seems like – it's not what I think of when I think of premeditation.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But it does seem like it does fit with the language of what the law is.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that fair to say?

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess what the argument is that what makes something worse when it's premeditated is you've had a moment to think about it and you're realizing this may not be the smart thing to do, but I want to do it anyway.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: As opposed to, oh, my God, I can't stop myself.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That cereal looks so delicious.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, right.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, I guess I can understand it.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But I can also understand like if you're a defense attorney, you're probably like sitting like, okay, like is a second premeditation?

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Is two sides – like where's the limit?

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Where is the line?

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so much of criminal law, so much of law as a whole is devoted to trying to figure out where the line is in everything.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: When does something fall on this side of the line or the other side of the line?

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And whenever you get those cases that are close to that line, they are very hard to figure out.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not sure how I would have ruled on this one.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you agree with the court?

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't feel particularly strongly about it, to be honest.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, as I said, I can empathize with you on the defense side in this case or any case.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You'd be concerned of like at some point we're just making everything premeditated because like there's a second before you pull the trigger.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that would concern me because if I'm a defense attorney and my client's going to get a significantly worse outcome because of that, and I feel like people are playing fast and loose with what premeditation means, that's very frustrating and that's not fair in my mind.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, if you're looking at this from the perspective of like what does the law say and this kind of internal second thought thing, I mean, yeah, this fits.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of like, you know, I understand why we put more of a – you know, I understand.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean like when you're coldly calculating and planning, if I'm going and I'm assembling a crack team of serial heisters and I'm putting in all this planning, you know, I've had time to sit with what I'm doing and how I'm going to possibly, you know, maybe some grocery store employees are going to get traumatized and maybe their business is going to be harmed.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sitting there with that and I'm saying that's all right.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas if I just randomly do it, I wasn't planning on it, you know, maybe I'm just kind of a careless, impulsive person.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I don't mean as much harm.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, like, you know, I don't know.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to kind of –

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And does taking an extra five seconds in the grocery store to determine, well, I don't want to do it.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do want to do it.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Does that really give you enough time to really fully analyze and understand how this is going to affect their business and their bottom line?

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I know.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, well, yeah, because, like, you should know that, like, theft is going to be bad for a business.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not what they want you to do.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess, like, I guess when you look at the law, I kind of agree with it.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you think about it, I could see where it kind of gets into the sort of – I know the slippery slope is a fallacy, but you can kind of see where it's like at a certain point everything's premeditated because something happened, you know, like there's a gap in time before one thing.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess my question is, do you agree with it?

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not certain that I do.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's much distinction.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: If we all agree what happened is a violent, impulsive person is upset by something that someone says and though he starts shooting.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see that it's much worse that he took an extra 10 seconds before he started pulling the trigger.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's frankly –

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It would be much worse to me if an impulsive, violent man remembers something that someone said to him and then two or three hours later he returns and starts shooting.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That seems to me to be much worse.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it feels to me.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're such a grievance collector that you're going to come do this.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is worse.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I think the law is written in kind of a vague way, like where you can kind of – it's open to interpretation.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why they pay the lawyers the big bucks.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, you want to –

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The last case is all you.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Get out of Kansas?

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you told me that this case – you said, don't worry, Kevin.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You told me about this case yesterday.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You said, don't worry.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Everything's okay.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit of a journey.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I woke you up in the middle of the night to say that.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's some bad stuff early on.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: When Anya is going to start this story, you're going to be concerned.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But it all ends up happily.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it okay that I say that?

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Am I spoiling the suspense?

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's spoiled the whole thing.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Geez.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you just do it?

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to spoil it because I don't – you know, it's a scary situation because – so in Indianapolis – and my source for this was USA Today.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: In Indianapolis on Monday, December 2nd, a vehicle was stolen.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's always bad.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But what was significantly worse is that there were two baby girls in the car at the time of the theft.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They were five months old and four months old.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're little, little babies.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And anytime you have something like this, that's very concerning, obviously.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not just a stolen vehicle case.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a kidnapping.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know in the USA Today article – and I'll link to it so you can read it – there was another case of this happening.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they noted that in the colder months, people might be warming up their car and kind of doing stuff and kind of, you know, put the car seats and the babies in there and then go out.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And that can kind of give an opportunity for a carjacking or for a car theft that leads to a kidnapping.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess this is also a note to all the new parents and caretakers.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Be very alert about things like that.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's – all it takes is a second for something really bad to happen.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And something really bad almost happened here because these babies are missing.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: This is all happening.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a – the car was a 2013 Hyundai Sonata.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And Indianapolis Metropolitan Police go to East Gimber Street, which is on the south side of Indianapolis.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were kind of dealing with this.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And very soon after, though, they found the vehicle.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So the vehicle is abandoned.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: No babies inside.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Very bad sign.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But then thankfully, very shortly after that, they also get a call to 911 from a man named Robert Dean.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So Robert Dean goes outside of his residence on the southeast side of the city.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's getting some packages.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Looks over at the ditch.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: There's some car seats in the ditch.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, hmm, weird.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Goes over.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And the babies are in the car seats.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: They're okay.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: This guy's a hero.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: This guy's a hero.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved what he said.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He said this.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: This quote made me smile.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Quote, if you see something like a baby in a ditch, say something and do something.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So words to live by.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Robert Dean's a hero.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He got the babies inside.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He called police.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The babies are okay.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, but can I just say, like, people like Dean restore my faith in humanity.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of creep steals a car and then leaves babies?

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It was very cold.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: The article says it was 27 degrees out.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You're leaving little, little babies in the cold.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: What a horrible.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope they catch whoever did that.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just a horrible thing to do.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad they didn't directly hurt the babies.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But also the babies were left in a situation where if no one had come out, they could have died.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's a very scary situation.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: This could have ended way worse.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And just, you know, if you don't know babies in the car, first of all, don't steal cars.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Second of all, don't steal cars with babies in it.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Third of all, if you're going to, like, leave the kidnapped baby somewhere, like, I don't know, like, leave them at a gas station inside.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Leave them somewhere inside if it's winter or summer.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Or just don't do this.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I don't know who I'm talking to.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I know the kidnapper's not listening to this show right now.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And our audience is full of respectable men and women.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you guys aren't considering this.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, it just makes me mad.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because these poor little babies.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And just thank goodness for Robert Dean for doing this and doing, you know, getting involved in helping these babies.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very happy that they're okay.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But it just scares me that there's people like this, you know, who would be that calloused as to leave them out in the cold.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So a heartwarming story for the holiday season because at least it ended happily.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: At least it ended happily.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Unlike a lot of the stories we talk about.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to pick a case where it was like a crime, but also, like, things were okay in the end because, you know, it's the holiday season.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I don't, they're, you know, poor little babies, but they're okay.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And they won't remember this because they're very young.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure their families will.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, now we've reached a familiar point in the program.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And before we get to that point, I'm sure this won't come as too much of a shock to you.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But when Anya does the t-shirt ads, she just, you should just blunders right into it with no advanced planning.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've all seen how that's worked out.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So today, special treat for Anya.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Do something really nice.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I take her to McDonald's for lunch.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, she deserves a break today.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So we are driving to McDonald's and she starts pitching her ad to me.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: She's already working on it.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: She's honing it.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so she's determined it's going to be something special.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Something that's going to make you all race out to your computers and buy these shirts.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's just sit back and let Anya work her magic on us that she has been working on.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do it.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Holiday season.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You're already laughing at me.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This is why the ads are so bad, because I don't get any support.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying a word.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Just go falling over there.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So holiday season's coming up.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's December 3rd as we're recording this.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be later when you listen to it.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess December 6th.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And my birthday.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin's birthday.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So when you're listening to this, celebrate Kevin's birthday by purchasing a beautiful murder sheet shirt.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It has our logo on it.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's black.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's nice, sturdy cotton.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It has beautiful colors.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And it says the murder sheet people on it.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You're joining the murder sheet people nation.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You're becoming a part of the murder sheet people family.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're telling everyone you have wonderful taste in true crime podcasts.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the holiday season.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so here's a thought.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, you don't want to buy it for yourself.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe throw the link out to some of your friends and family.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what you want.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They can't read your mind.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You got to tell them.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Throw that link out.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, guys, you want something?

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to get me something that's going to make my day?

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I hear.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And send it to your confused friends and family who won't know what it is, but they're going to get it anyway because they love you.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They care about you.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And make sure they know you're doing it because it's my birthday.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, this is my special day.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's his special day.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He's the birthday boy.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You got to do it.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You got to make his day or he's going to be sitting around the house moping.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to have to deal with it.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I frankly don't want to have to deal with it.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So you deal with it preemptively and make sure it doesn't happen.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing that you can do is I know we've heard from a lot of people, you know, they're listening to this show, not in a vacuum.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They're engaging with it.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But they've also got confused friends and families around them who are saying, what is that?

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are these people?

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing?

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you like?

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you listening to them?

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They seem weird.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But for those people, I'm addressing them right now.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to get this person a good Christmas gift, a good holiday gift, a good Hanukkah gift, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever you celebrate.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: This is something to consider.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Murdersheetshop.com.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Get on there.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: A range of sizes.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Get the right size.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Order it.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And here's what I was pitching in the car.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Here it comes from.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: This is where I go into Don Draper mode and your minds are going to be blown.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Get ready to have a handkerchief to wipe away a tear.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're a priority for us.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's reflected in the fact that it's all priority mail shipping.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to get it very quickly because you're a priority for us.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And that sounded way better in my head.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But moving right along, this is this is the shirt ad.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I kind of I kind of hit all the points.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it flowed nicely.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm pretty proud of myself.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe I shouldn't say anything about it.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, why don't you say something?

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, your birthday's coming up.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, there'll be an opportunity for revenge pretty quickly.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: What a great ad.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_00]: What an amazing ad is the best ad.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we should never do another ad again because that one you've achieved.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We should stop trying.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No, what did you really think?

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You look you look appalled.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You said that if I criticize the ad, it's going to wreck my birthday.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Your birthday is ruined.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not that vindictive.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: What was the problem with the ad?

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: My birthday is like the day before Pearl Harbor.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so as a child, I would sometimes be confused because people would always seem very sad around

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: my birthday to be all these solemn ceremonies on TV.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, is that my fault?

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So you'll hear the opposite of those kids who were born around the 4th of July where they

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: think the fireworks are for them.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: That you think that the nation is in mourning because you were born.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never really recovered as a country.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's so sad.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a bitter blow.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a holiday.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think one time Holy Thursday was on my birthday.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Easter once, but nothing that wild.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I forget.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I forget.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you tell the good members of this fine audience if they are interested in taking your

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: advice?

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I said murder sheetshop.com.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You have so little faith in me, so little faith in my advertisement abilities and my professionalism

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that you would think I would leave out something as important as the URL where they can purchase

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01]: these beautiful shirts.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is my face red?

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I've done it before.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you really want to either give me a happy birthday or if you're like on Team Anya

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and you feel like I'm too hard on her for these ads, this is the week.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Just flood us with t-shirt orders.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Guys.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: This is your opportunity to really put Kevin in his place, which I know we all dream about

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_01]: doing.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: At least one of us does.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We're all desperate to do.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So send in your orders this week and then I'll be able to say that I did not collapse

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: sales with my marketing abilities.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01]: As you have before.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's your opinion.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That's something you're saying.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we need to have someone run the numbers up the flagpole to see what...

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think once you hit the button.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to hit the button.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, thank you guys.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope you're having a lovely holiday season.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate all of you.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: By holiday season, you mean Kevin's birthday.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, jeez.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: A period of mourning.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeez.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, everybody.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: gmail.com.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: authorities.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: slash murdersheet.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_00]: who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: of messages.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: This show is phenomenal.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health,

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a show for you.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting life experiences.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_01]: as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to people whenever I want.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's a really terrific show.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been on his show.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh yeah,

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when Jason said this.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That really resonated.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01]: complicated issues.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I do quote.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, remember when Jason said this?

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That was so right.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think, and you like us, I think you should give it

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a shot.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Give it a try.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness,

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: things like that.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: nice.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_01]: empathy to it.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: by true crime, I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can be nice to listen

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to in a podcast.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's compassionate.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's affirming.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_00]: People, Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We're fans of the show.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We love it.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Download some episodes.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Very easy to find.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.