The Cheat Sheet: Fetishes and Firearms

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[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Content warning, this episode contains murder, domestic violence, violence, and suicide.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So on today's cheat sheet, we're going to be covering a number of cases,

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: one from Virginia, another from North Carolina, so two adjacent states,

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and then more from Kentucky and Michigan. And a lot of them, you know, some of them are going to

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: be pretty high profile and a number of them actually involve discussions around firearms.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the Cheat Sheet, fetishes and firearms.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to start with a case out of Herndon, Virginia. Our source for this was WTOP.com.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to start by saying I remember when I was a kid, there were books called Sniglets,

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: which collected what they said were words for things that don't have words but should be have

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: words. It's like a word for something that doesn't have a word. And this is my awkward way of saying

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we need to have a word for people who think they're in an episode of Columbo.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, people who dream up really complicated murder plots, thinking, well,

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll get away with this. And then they inevitably fall to pieces. And because I think the people in

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: this particular case think they were in an episode of Columbo. And I'm talking about Brendan Banfield,

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: his au pair, Juliana Perez Magaliz. And the two of them, this man and his au pair,

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: were apparently engaged in some sort of a romantic relationship. And apparently that's

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: been borne out by some texts and other things of that nature. Brendan was, of course, married at

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the time. And he was living with his wife and the au pair and their four-year-old daughter

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in a home in Herndon. And so what happened is that someone using the computer belonging to

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Brendan's wife, Christine, visited a fetish website and created an account,

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: basically saying, I want someone to give me rough sex. I want to meet someone to come over to my

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: home and give me rough sex. And so as a result of that ad, she meets a man named, let me get that

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: here.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to say this is all very surreal because Herndon, Virginia is familiar to me.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I went to a public college in Virginia. And so I knew a lot of people from Fairfax County and

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: northern Virginia and places like this. So it's kind of like a suburb of DC. It's kind of like

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a little suburban kind of urban area. It's very nice. I think a lot of professionals and families

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: live there. So it's just sort of surreal to see this geography sort of coming up in this really

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: horrible and salacious story. I mean, it's salacious in that it seems to involve sex

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and affair. But at the end of the day, it's just a horrific tragedy.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So the man who answered the ad was Joseph Nathan Ryan. So he comes and

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: apparently the husband, Brendan, claims that he saw this man stabbing his wife. He takes out a gun,

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: shoots the man. And the au pair, Miss Margulies also shoots the man. And as a result of this

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: incident, the wife is deceased and the man, Mr. Ryan, is deceased. And so obviously what they

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted people to believe was the wife was engaging in risky sex with a man who took things too far.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: He killed her. And then the husband had no choice but to kill him. And as a result of this, you have

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: a dead wife and you have a dead perpetrator who can't challenge what you say. So kind of, again,

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: like a Columbo episode, you would think. But it started falling apart. And not long after the

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: incident, the au pair, Miss Margulies, was arrested and charged in the case. And then just this week,

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the husband, Brendan, was also arrested and charged in the case.

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[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: on this, that would be great, but my understanding is that Brendan Banfield had some kind of lawn

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: background. Is that correct? What was sort of his deal?

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: DR. LEVINE Brendan was a criminal

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: investigative division agent for the IRS.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: DR. HANNON Wow, okay, so the Internal

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Revenue Service. And that's, I think, not something you necessarily associate with guns blazing,

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: right? But in certain instances there can be a need for that where…

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: DR. LEVINE And certainly if you work in that area,

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know how the minds of investigators work.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: DR. HANNON Yes, you are an investigator, so you can

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: think about it in that way. And yeah…

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: DR. LEVINE And that may give you some background

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to try to come up with what seems like a complete story all wrapped up in a giant book.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: DR. HANNON Yeah, and it's not lost on me that there's an element of, again,

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone's innocent until proven guilty. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves too much here, but

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: if this is a carefully orchestrated murder of two people in order to sort of allow two other people

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of continue their affair and get together officially, then there is almost an element of

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: blaming the victim because it's like, oh look, my wife was cheating on me, so is it really that bad

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: if I marry my au pair in a couple years? There's almost smearing the victim in death.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: In order to help get what you want.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: DR. LEVINE And I'm curious because the au pair was arrested a while ago,

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: now investigators are talking about new evidence. Is it possible she flipped on it? I don't know.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: DR. HANNON That always seems to be a possibility. And we know in conspiracy cases,

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: these can take a while where you have to go piece by piece, you have to go domino by domino,

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you can't skip to the end. You can't skip to the most culpable party immediately. Sometimes you

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: need to get the smaller players first and go up the ladder in that way. So it seems possible,

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: or it's possible that just through the investigation they've been able to make

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: some things happen and confirm some things. Yeah, what a horrific story. And it just,

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: when you say the Columbo thing, and I agree with that, that's a very apt comparison here

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's like a very stage managed murder if that's what's going on here.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But to me it's like, I know divorce is really rough and people lose their assets and maybe they

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: can't live the fancy lifestyle that they're accustomed to. But isn't that better than

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: going to prison for life? You know what I mean?

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: DR. STEVENS Isn't that better than taking the life of your four-year-old child's mother?

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? I mean, you're doing the human perspective. I'm doing the cold-blooded perspective.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But either way, what the heck? I mean, why do people do this? I'm not saying I understand

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: heat of the moment violence. I don't. I think that's horrific and learn to control your emotions

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: like an adult. But I think this is not a spur of the moment shooting where an argument spiraled

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: out of control. This seems like a very carefully plotted thing. And when you have a carefully

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: plotted thing, there's so many steps along the way where somebody should be saying,

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: wait a minute, what are we doing here? No, let's not do this. This is an evil,

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: awful thing to do. And it's very unlikely that we would get away with it.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like have some humility. You're not that smart. You know, it's very typically when

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you see people get away with murder, it's because of severe law enforcement mistakes or the killer

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: just happens to get really lucky. And you can't count on that.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Life is not Columbo. And as I say, that four-year-old child, how can you look into the

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: eyes of your four-year-old child who you presumably love and care for more than anything else?

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's supposed to be how it works. And make the choice to take a parent away,

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: knowing that that is going to be something that likely is going to affect them for the rest of

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: their lives. So need to be counseling involved. That might affect how they're able to form

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: relationships with others in the future. It's just over and above taking these lives of two

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: innocents, you're also permanently harming the life of someone you're supposed to love.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: SONIA DARA What this reminds me a little bit of is the case of family annihilator Jeffrey McDonald,

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: because you also, this is of course the Green Beret physician who was convicted of murdering his

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: small daughters and his wife. And he's very much guilty. The evidence was conclusive. And I know

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of conspiracy theories about this case, but they're all bunk as far as I'm concerned.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He's exactly where he should be. And with McDonald, one of the aspects of his story that always kind

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of stuck out to me is that, you know, in his version of events that he's always stuck to for

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: all of these years, is that a group of raging hippies came into his house and fought with him

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and then murdered his family. While a woman wearing a big floppy hat holding a candle said,

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: acid is groovy, kill the pigs, you know, as hippies do. And this was a situation where

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like he's the hero, he's fighting them off, like he's in this heroic, he tried to save them,

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: this kind of thing. But then you look at his injuries, and it's like a very carefully,

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a very careful stab with an ice pick. And that's pretty much it in terms of serious injuries.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Later on, he told people I was almost dying, but he wasn't. His family was brutally murdered.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, he got a little jab that did collapse his lung, but it seemed to be,

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it seemed to have been done with a lot of care and precision, you know, like what a physician

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: might be able to do. A doctor presumably could injure himself in such a way that it wouldn't be

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: like. So it's just interesting to me whenever there's a case where the killer is almost

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to engender sympathy of like, I'm the heroic husband who tried to save my family,

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: who tried to save my wife, but I couldn't do it. Feel bad for me because there seems to be an extra

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: level of kind of manipulation going on there. They don't just want to, you know, get the sympathy

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: factor in terms of losing somebody. They want to get the sympathy factor as well as if they tried

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and just, they're probably racked with guilt over that. It's like maybe they're racked with guilt

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: over something else. I mean, is there any sort of indication of what the defense is going to be for

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: these people? Not, not yet. They're going to, they're going to just blame the guy they killed.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Presumably. Okay. At least that's what they did initially. I don't know if that's going to change

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: if pressure is being put on the au pair and the husband, presumably there is every

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: possibility in the world that they might start pointing fingers at each other.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I mean, I'll be curious to see what their defense is, if they stick to the first story or

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: if it becomes, you know, the au pair or, you know, uh, you know, whatever one of them saying, well,

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it was actually her fault. It was actually his fault and they made me do it. Or if it's, yeah,

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be really curious to see this. To me, just, uh, I don't know all the details of the case,

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but if you have a husband who is on solid economic footing with a good job and a criminal investigative

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: background, and you have an au pair, who's a young person from another country, it seems more likely

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to the person with power and status in a place in the community would be more likely to be the one

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to drive receipt of such a crime. I agree. And I think it's interesting that, um,

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: is it, is it Magelhase? Is that how you say it? Yeah. Uh, her attorney is a man named Ryan Campbell,

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said at a hearing at the end of December that it was difficult for him to accept that

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody other than Christine Banfield was going on her computer to lure Ryan for months. I'm

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: sorry. Why is that that hard to understand? Like, why is that that that does not seem beyond the

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: realm of possibility for me here? I'm just, it's interesting that he's so struck about that. Like,

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: how could that happen? I could see that easily happening. Husbands and wives have access to

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: each other's computers. Yes. And it's called, you know, you can use incognito browsers. If your,

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: if your wife doesn't, or your spouse, I should say, if your spouse doesn't suspect something untoward

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and my husband is trying to murder me and lure some guy to his death in order to do it,

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: seems like not something that would be top of mind for a lot of people. I don't know. That,

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that seems highly possible, especially if you again have a wife that's being blindsided. And

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have somebody with general knowledge of investigative techniques, that doesn't sound

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that, I mean, there's things where I'm like, that sounds kind of conspiratorial in this.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like a conspiracy that would actually be easy to pull off in certain instances. But

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: again, they haven't been convicted. So I think we should.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Innocent until proven guilty.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We should know, we should acknowledge that. And we should note that, you know,

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it's possible that they'll come up with some evidence that really points to being more of

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00]: one of their faults versus, you know, both of them equally. So we'll just have to see,

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'll be really interested because this is a very twisty case.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So on to North Carolina.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's go south to North Carolina. This is from a listener request and my sources for this

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: are ABC 11, WPDE, WBTW, a Department of Justice press release and Florence Morning News via

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: newspapers.com. So on Friday, September 13th at 1240 AM, a young man named Burley Dawson Locklear

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: III of Red Springs, North Carolina was working at the Waffle House at 1302 Scotland Crossing Drive

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in Laurenburg, North Carolina. This is the seat of Scotland County, North Carolina, which is in

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the southern part of the state. And this Waffle House is specifically on Interstate 74 and US 15.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's right near there. And Locklear was only 18. He just graduated that year,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: this past year, 2024 from a Hoke County high school. He wanted to eventually go into electrical

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: work like his dad. He was a real jokester, just a great kid. His family absolutely adored him.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a girlfriend he loved. He liked to do hunting and video games and just by all accounts,

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a really joyful, nice person. And unfortunately, that was all taken away from him. So I mean,

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: this is an 18-year-old. He's at the start of his life and now he's dead for no reason.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: A man came into the Waffle House while he was working and this man became very angry. It's

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: not clear whether he felt the food took too long or what the issue was, but he began verbally

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: abusing the employees. Unfortunately, having covered retail prior to joining the crime beat,

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you that this happens all too often. People take out their anger and aggression on

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: retail employees, fast food employees. It's disgusting to me. I mean, everyone has a bad day,

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but that doesn't give you the right to abuse people verbally or otherwise.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And people really need to do better and people need to shame and call this behavior out when they

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: see it. But anyway, this man was given his food and then he walked outside toward his car,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: which witnesses said might be a dark gray 2014 Chevrolet. And then he did not just leave,

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately. I mean, he did end up driving down Scotland Crossing Drive toward West Boulevard,

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but before he went, he turned back and fired two gunshots at the restaurant and one of them hit

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Locklear. And he was rushed to the Scotland Memorial Hospital. Unfortunately, news reports

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: say his family showed up as he was being transported into the hospital just in time to see

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: first responders giving him CPR and he died at the hospital. So.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Police do have an idea of who may have done this. News reports identified 38 year old

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: floor Carlin Lizano, who also goes by Chulo and Carlos. And we're going to link to links in our

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: show notes from the news. If you watch the videos, there are pictures of Lizano. Check those out.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Get to know what this guy looks like, especially if you live in the sort of southern eastern part

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: of the United States, because as of our recording right now, which is September 18th, 2024,

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: this man has not been caught yet. That's my understanding. You know, it's possible we just

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: haven't heard about it, but I've not found any indication that he has been put under arrest.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But he was identified as the shooter and he was is has been charged with first degree murder.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: He is known to spend a lot of time in Laurenburg, as well as Dillon, South Carolina, which is

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in Dillon County, South Carolina. And that's about 40 minutes to the south of Laurenburg.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And this man also goes to Florida a lot. So one thing that's interesting is that in 2017,

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: a man with the same name, although back then his age was listed as 41. I don't know what the reason

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: for that is, was sentenced in federal court for being a felon in possession of a firearm.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He was sentenced to 48 months imprisonment and three years supervised release.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was the result of a guilty plea. He had been previously arrested by the Dillon

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Police Department, who found him asleep in a car while wearing a loaded firearm.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a convicted felon. And this particular gun had been stolen out of Lumberton, North Carolina.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and Dillon Police Department

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: worked together on this investigation. And that was the result. But it seems like yet again,

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: he has obtained a gun. How he did this is not clear at this point. But again, he's not been

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: captured. So if you live in North Carolina, if you live in South Carolina, if you live in Georgia,

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Florida, that area, please look at this man's face, send the link around to people you know

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: who live in those areas and take a look. And contact, if you have any information about where

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: this man is, please contact Lornberg Police Sergeant Detective Jeffrey Cook. That's at 910-291-1750

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have information about him. And you can also send anonymous tips to www.scotlandcountycs.com.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But either way, a horrible, horrible situation for this family. They've gone on the record

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: talking about what this loss means to them and how horrible it was. And let's just be clear,

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: this is not a workable thing where we're having young kids get gunned down doing their jobs

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: at fast food companies because a man can't handle feeling angry or impatient for a moment.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not workable. I don't want to live in that society. That's not OK.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not OK. So I agree.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this guy needs to be caught and punished. So yeah.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Love that.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, going on to the next case. This is going to be in Kentucky. This was one you may

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: have heard about. Very troubling stuff. My sources are The Lexington Herald-Leader,

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Wave 3, CBS Austin, WHS 11, WKYT, and also the Columbia University Department of Psychiatry,

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and an article from the American Journal of Public Health back from a few years ago called

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Mass Shooting's the Role of the Media in Promoting Generalized Imitation.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So on September 7th, 2024, Joseph Couch, a 32-year-old from Knox County in Kentucky,

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: went to London, Kentucky to buy a gun. Couch had served in the Army Reserve

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: from March 2013 to January 2019. He was a 12B combat engineer. And a while back he did get

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: in trouble with a terroristic threatening charge in Knox County, but that seemingly went away,

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and he didn't have much of a criminal history. So in London, Kentucky at this gun store,

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Couch filled out the paperwork. He went through all the forms. He bought an AR-15 and also a

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: thousand rounds of ammunition. All very easy, all very convenient. He got all the stuff he needed.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Everything checked out, and he went on his way. And this is despite the fact that his family said

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. So after this, Couch texted a woman

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: named Sarah Mills with whom he shares a child saying, quote, I'm going to kill a lot of people.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: He added, well, I'm going to try at least. And then, quote, I'll kill myself afterwards.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So Mills very rightfully contacted police after receiving these. But then gunfire began going

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: along Interstate 75 just northwest of London, Kentucky near exit 49. So Couch had apparently

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: set himself up on some kind of hill or cliff looking over the interstate and started firing.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And 20 to 30 rounds of bullets hit 17 vehicles. All of these numbers have shifted because some

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: people didn't notice the damage until days later. So they came forward later because they hadn't

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: realized that their vehicles had been hit. In total, five people were very seriously injured.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: People were shot in the arms, in the chest, in the face in one case. So we're talking about very

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: serious damaging injuries. And unfortunately, Couch himself disappeared into the woods.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He likely took food and water with him. So police were on the scene at 530 p.m., but

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the rugged, very hilly, very heavily wooded terrain made the search in Laurel County

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: very difficult. They were able to track down his car. They found the AR-15 assault style rifle he

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: most likely used in the shooting. Fourteen agencies ended up participating in this whole thing. We're

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: talking about Kentucky State Police, Laurel County Sheriff's Office, United States Marshals,

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Federal Bureau of Investigation and many more. They've all been out there for a while looking

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: for this guy. They've gotten help from the public, 400 tips to law enforcement, many of them around

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the Daniel Boone National Forest, which is a vast sprawling park. And that's where police think he

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: may be at this point. But in total, 28,000 acres searched. Dogs were kind of indicating about a

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: scent going towards Daniel Boone, but they didn't find him. And at this point, the search has gone

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: long enough where they're switching to community patrols because they just don't think they're

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: gonna be able to find him at this rate. And this whole thing just is so... Reading about this case,

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: one thing that struck me is how convenient it was for this man to obtain this weapon and then do this

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: later that day. And I personally wanna talk about what... The issue of gun control, or I should say

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: the stagnation around the political will to do anything about this because very little seems to

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: be being done. What I see is that many of the American people are not okay with living in a

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: society where this is happening so frequently, but our political class has just collectively

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: decided that this is fine. We don't... We can just live with this. If we can live with a classroom

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: of dead first graders, we can live with all of this. These people are just driving home. They're

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: driving maybe for a work thing and they're getting shot in the face because of this.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's outrageous. It makes me incredibly angry. And I feel like putting the needs of a

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: radical well-funded gun lobby over the common good is not acceptable.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like when we talk to gun owners frequently, we don't hear them saying,

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: yes, nothing should be done. This is all fine. We hear them saying, I would be actually willing

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to put up with a little bit more inconvenience if it meant living in a safer place. And

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why that's not happening. I mean, I do know why, because again, there's a very well-funded

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: gun lobby in this country. And as we know, if you have money and power, that tends to speak louder

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: than the common interest and certainly public safety. But it doesn't need to be this way. And

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it shouldn't be this way. And we should be demanding more from our politicians on this,

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: because this is just... This is untenable. And I'm certainly a big fan of our US constitutional

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: rights, but I don't really think that this is acceptable, even when you consider Second

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Amendment rights. And when you're having founders write about a well-trained militia, this is not

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that. This is not... We're not having roving militias do this. We're having people who should

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: not have guns, who very easily obtain not only firearms, but extensive ammunition resources,

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: go out and do this. And then we all decide, well, who could have stopped them?

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing that kind of gets thrown around a lot when you talk about mass shootings

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: is mental illness. It's like, well, maybe instead of the guns, we should fight mental illness.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just wanted to read something that I found really interesting. And I mean,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and I understand that impulse. I think we tend to say, well, how could anyone do this? There must

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: have been something wrong. So therefore, I associate things that are wrong with people

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: with mental illness. And then that must be the explanation. But when you actually look at the

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: numbers, it doesn't really add up. I read an interview with Dr. Raji Gurgis of the Columbia

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: University Department of Psychiatry, and he's also with the New York State Psychiatric Institute.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was doing some work with sort of a mass database that they built up of different mass

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: homicides. And in a 22 interview that was published on their site, he said that he

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: found that only 5 percent, 5 percent of mass shootings were related to severe mental illnesses.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking about different definitions of mental illness where a severe mental illness

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: means something different than, say, like depression. Now, he said that he found that

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: about 25 percent of mass shootings were associated with non-psychotic, psychiatric, or neurological

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00]: illnesses, including depression. And 24 were linked with substance use or abuse. In his view,

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: many of that may be incidental. More relevant risk factors include people with a history of

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: legal problems, people with inability to cope with stress, people dealing with a lot of nihilism and

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: anger, and in the case of people who are young men, young males, a desperation to achieve infamy.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we're saying mental illness, you know, half of all mass shootings, there are no red

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: flags. There is no criminal background. There's no substance abuse issues. There's no documented

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: mental illness. It's in this expert's opinion, it's people who freak out after encountering some

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: stressor in their lives. So how do we deal with that? I mean, I'm not saying I have all the answers,

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think making it so convenient to purchase not only guns, but a lot of ammo means that

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we're putting the public at risk again and again. And I also don't see when people start throwing

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: out mental illness, I don't see those same people saying, well, let's dedicate a lot of funding

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: towards increasing the number of beds in psychiatric institutions, or giving support

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for community-based solutions. I mean, that's not really happening. So the inertia has to stop.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: There needs to be a hard conversation. I think personally my view is that this is not going to

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: be one quick fix. I don't think there's going to be one thing that we do as a society and say,

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: now it's over. But I think there could be different comprehensive approaches that could help.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And some of that is going to be in gun... I think some of that has to be gun control.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And some of that may be more widespread mental health support, because I don't really think

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: mental illness is necessarily the problem here. But I think that perhaps giving people resources

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: to cope with life, giving people resources to deal with their anger,

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: monitoring people when they're making threats, all of that could possibly help.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing that I know people often say is like, well, maybe we just kind of give everyone

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: guns because then... I mean, what do you make of that solution?

[00:34:31] **Matt Stauffer 1**

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that would just make things a lot worse.

[00:34:34] **Mary Huffman 1**

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you have instances where good guys with guns save the day,

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's great. And those people are heroes. We had that in an Indiana mall shooting.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: **Matt Stauffer 1** Yeah, I was just thinking that when you said that.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: **Mary Huffman 1** Yeah, that guy was a hero. He had a gun,

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and thank God because he was able to shoot the killer before he killed more people.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't have a problem with that. But I think if we're just relying on that,

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't really make any sense because I might be a good guy with a gun and I can't

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: shoot straight and I end up shooting someone else. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you can't...

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: just because that works out sometimes doesn't mean that's a comprehensive total solution.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Or I might think that I'm stopping a shooting, but what I'm really looking at is a guy with a...

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: holding a pipe and there happened to be a car backfiring that I heard. So it could

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: just lead to more tragedies. I don't think that's a solution. I just think that's a

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: miraculous thing when it happens, and we should be grateful about it. But I don't

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: see how that's translated into a consistent result. But anyways,

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one thing where we can take accountability and we can do things differently

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: in media and in journalism is we can change the way we cover these things.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I've been reading more and more about the research around mass shootings, and

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I used to be of the mindset where, like, you should give out names and details. Let's shock

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: people out of their complacency. Let's describe what happened. Let's shame and blame the awful

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: person who did this. But more and more research has been coming out indicating that something else

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: may be better in terms of harm reduction because there may be some kind of imitation effect going

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: on here where, frankly, pathetic losers and very disturbed individuals are seeking notoriety

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and the attention they never got in life. And that we would benefit as a society if our media

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_00]: was covering these events more like they do suicides. So in suicides, when you're covering

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that as a journalist, it's often encouraged that you don't get into horrible details,

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't focus on it too much, and you kind of are very thoughtful about how you cover it.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the reason for that is there can be imitation suicides that follow that.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a very social species. You know, we're very in tune with it. So if we have mass media

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're seeing that guy did that and got that result, I want that for me. Sometimes that can

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: mean starting your own business or something good. And then in other cases, it's really

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: something horrible. So what we're going to do, and keep in mind this will be somewhat of a case by

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: case basis, sometimes there's a completely valid journalistic reason to do otherwise. Sometimes

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: there's, you know, in this case, I would argue that we need to name this couch guy because,

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's still out there. He's on the loose. So I want you to know his name. I want you to click

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: on the links we provided so you know what he looks like, especially if you live in the Kentucky

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: area and are nearby. So when someone is at large, we're going to name them because otherwise,

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I feel like we're kind of hiding the ball on something that could be of public interest.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But in instances where that's not the case and someone has been apprehended,

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll try to name the shooter only once or at least minimally. You'll get the name from us,

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but then we'll just refer to them as the shooter because we don't want to continue to say their

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: names. I just don't think that's necessary at that point. And we will be more selective

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: about reporting on things like motives, manifestos, ramblings of a killer, because personally,

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe you feel differently, but personally, my view is who cares what somebody thinks?

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Once they've picked up a gun and done something like that,

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they've lost the plot. I mean, that's it. We don't need to carry their words because that's

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: how they win. And there might be instances where there is a real journalistic benefit to doing

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: otherwise. We can do that in those cases, but otherwise, I think we'd be more inclined to ignore.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone saying, I did this because I was bullied or these people were mean to me,

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: or I did this because, you know, a lot of, you know, I did this because my politics,

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I did this because I hate women. I did this because whatever. I mean,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: okay. I mean, that's something for maybe profilish to look at, but I think in terms

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: of the media, it doesn't really help matters. And then lastly, we will try to focus the energy

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in our reporting on the victims of these shootings, the people whose lives were lost,

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the people who were injured and the impacted communities when possible, because that's

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: our energy and our thoughts should really be going not to some disturbed individual who

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: did something horrible. So what do you think about that?

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: SIMON I think that makes a lot of sense,

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and we will try to live up to that policy going forward.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: TONI Yeah. And if you have any other

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: suggestions about mass shootings, let us know. It seems like the research is kind of evolving over

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: time, so we'll try to just stay up with it. But in the meantime, as of Wednesday, September 18th,

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Couch has not been captured. So hopefully this will change by the time you hear this episode, but

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: he could be armed and dangerous. So if you're in the area and you see him, call 911 and check

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the links in our show notes to get a better idea of what he looks like.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: SIMON And then I just want to take a quick

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: moment here to talk about a case in Michigan. My source for this was the Detroit News. And also,

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I found interesting a discussion of Michigan self-defense law that was posted by the Davis

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Law Group. What happened here... Well, before I tell you what happened, oftentimes when we talk

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: about the law and the legal process and this defense or that defense, it's easy to get the

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: idea that the law is the same everywhere in the United States and that what might be a good defense

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in one state is an equally good defense in another state. But the fact is that in many areas,

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: different states have different laws. And I thought it was interesting to highlight that

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: as it came up in this particular case in Michigan. A 24-year-old man named Christopher Peterson

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: was charged with second-degree murder of 49-year-old Dante Carey. Dante Carey was

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Peterson's mother's ex-boyfriend. And Peterson used a self-defense theory. And Michigan has

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: very strong self-defense laws. And not only are the laws strong, but also the mechanism is strong.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And once a person in Michigan invokes the self-defense defense, the prosecutor has to

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: present evidence to rebut it. And so, in this particular case, this man said it was self-defense

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and in the mind of the judge, the prosecutors did not do a good job of rebutting it. And so,

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the charge was dismissed. And it's worth noting that this man who was killed did apparently have

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a history of physically abusing this man's mother. And he was also on a tether from law enforcement

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: for other charges related to violence and abuse. So, I don't know what exactly happened between

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: them, but it's easy to speculate based on what we do know that this older man was getting violent

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with Mr. Peterson. And in Michigan, they have a stand-your-ground law where you do not have to

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: try to flee or get away. If you are somewhere where you lawfully have the right to be,

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: you can stay there and use whatever self-defense is commiserate with what is occurring. And by

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: a lawful place, let's say I break into someone's house and then a police officer or someone comes

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and says, points a gun at me, I'm not able to shoot my way out of that. But if you have a lawful reason

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to be the place and you're in Michigan, you can use a stand-your-ground defense. And if you do

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01]: choose to invoke it, it'd be up to the prosecutor to try to rebut it.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Wow. As a lawyer,

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: how do you view stand-your-ground cases? Do they trouble you or do you think that's actually

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty reasonable?

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01]: David Schoenbrod I'm going to give you a lawyer answer. It depends.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Very lawyerly.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: David Schoenbrod I don't like the idea of lives being taken.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And if there are ways to avoid it by just temporarily stepping away, I'd like that.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't want to, if someone's life is being threatened, I don't necessarily like the idea

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01]: of saying, okay, before you can do anything, you have to go through this little checklist in order

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to have the right to defend yourself.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Yeah, that seems like it would get people

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: killed in and of itself if you're basically hamstringing it. And also, if there's a situation

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: where there's a justified homicide, why are we overtaxing our already burdened

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: criminal justice system with a marginal case?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin If it's like, well, okay, he was threatening

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: him and he was coming at him with a baseball bat or whatever happened. Maybe there was a

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: reasonable fear of death and harm and I don't know why charges would be even brought in that

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: situation. You have to investigate it because you want to make sure that there wasn't some

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: setup where they were trying to make it look like self-defense, but it was actually just

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a cold-blooded murder. But I feel like...

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Adam Bickler In this case, it was second degree

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and they said that there was a fight which escalated. So other than that, the account

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I read did not go into details about the mechanisms of this fight.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Yeah, I think there should be.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think self-defense is something that should always be considered in situations like this.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked on the show a number of times about quote-unquote self-defense cases where

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: it basically came down to, well, I was scared and that's not enough. That's your problem,

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like, right? But if someone's coming at you with a weapon or is beating you, then perhaps that's...

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Adam Bickler Well, the question is whether or not you

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: have a legitimate reason to be scared.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Yes, but I'm saying a lot of people

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately seem to take self-defense as, I just was scared. They forget the reasonable

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_00]: part of it, but the reasonable part of it is really key.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin So, yeah. I mean, that's interesting,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but yeah, interesting that they dropped it, but sort of wish there were a few more details about

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: it out there, but probably won't be because it's been dismissed.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Adam Bickler Yeah.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin So I think before we wrap up today,

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to mention that we got a press release saying that it's actually National Forensic

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Week, and we received some statistics from the Indiana State Police about forensic science in

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Indiana at least, at least through ISP. They noted for 2023 there were over 24,000 new cases

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: submitted for analysis at the Indiana State Police Laboratories. We have four in Indiana.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are located in Fort Wayne, Evansville, Indianapolis, and Lowell. And in addition to that,

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: crime scene investigators went to over 1,000 different crime scenes all across the state.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And in addition to that, in 2023 there were 698 cases that ended up being linked to a suspect by

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_00]: a CODIS DNA match. So it sort of underscores some of the sort of importance these days of forensic

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00]: science and the role that plays in some of these criminal cases and sort of the sheer scale of that.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that was this past week. So I guess we salute the forensic scientists. Thank you.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for what you do. And now I think we're going to gracefully transition into a few ads.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that right, Kevin? Kevin McCullough

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my understanding. I'm just here to enjoy.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Oh, so you're not going to help me at all.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just up to me. Kevin McCullough

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's your week. Taryn Larkin

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Equal division of labor. Is it my week?

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin McCullough Yeah.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Okay. So I'm doing both of these.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin McCullough Yeah.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin I think you're going to help me with the first one.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin McCullough Okay.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin Okay, we're going to do that one together and

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00]: then we're going to go. That one's going to be, this is going to be the good one and then we're

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: going to go on to the one that is more, a little bit looser, a little bit more impressionistic.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin McCullough They're both good.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Taryn Larkin You're already

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin McCullough Messing up. You don't want to tell people,

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah, one of these ads isn't that good. Jesus.

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[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: where it actually helps us out. When you support our sponsors, you support us and we appreciate

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that profoundly. Yeah, please use the discount because then they'll actually know that you're

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: coming from us. That's how it works. That's the secret, folks. That's how they track what

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: podcasts are doing a better job of that. Giving away all the secrets. Giving away all the business

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: secrets. But no, seriously, that's how you tell them that we sent you. So it's much appreciated.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we now transition to another ad just as good? All right, let's do it. So now we're

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_00]: going to talk about our t-shirts. These are Murder Sheet People t-shirts. That's what they say

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: on them. They've got our logo and beautiful colors across the front. Beautiful colors. Beautiful,

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_00]: striking colors that will... Like a sunset. Mesmerize and bewitch, beguile everyone you

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_00]: happen to come in contact with. Could change your life. See, it would help if when you're talking

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: about the pleasant qualities of the t-shirt, you don't break out laughing as if you're...

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It really is a genuine shirt. You're not saying, oh, isn't it funny that I'm saying this shirt

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is good. I'm not saying the shirt is a counterfeit shirt. What is a non-genuine shirt?

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, the shirt's pretty. It's all a ruse. Yeah, they're beautiful shirts.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not laughing about that. They're beautiful shirts, high quality shirts.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That's no joke. You're not laughing about that. You know what? I'm a laughy person. I'm a laughing...

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a sense of humor. Excuse me. I think people appreciated this. I'm not being a robot

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_00]: over here. I'm not saying these shirts are magnificent. Beep, boop. I'm Data from Star Trek.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm being real. I'm being emotional. I'm being a human with these people.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what? Speaking of that, it seems to me that you've been doing more laughing and being

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_01]: jollier since you started wearing these shirts. Is that fair to say?

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, is that the turning point? Yeah. I'm trying to save it. I'm trying to pull out this nose dive.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus Christ. You're welcome.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_00]: They're really good. They're just really good. And you can tell everyone they have wonderful

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: taste in true crime podcasts if you're wearing them. People will know.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Good taste in garments.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And good taste in garments. You listen to good stuff. You're wearing good stuff.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_00]: People pay attention to that. They'll take notice. And maybe they don't know what the

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: murder sheet is, but then it can start a fun conversation and everyone can have a good time.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you'll make lifelong friends just advertising for us. You don't know. It's happened, I'm sure.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Worth a shot.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's worth a shot. You can't lose anything at this rate. What have you got to lose?

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you told the people where they can buy the shirts?

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Well, I haven't. But let me pull up the appropriate link so I don't mess it up because

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that would be embarrassing. So it's murdersheetshop.com. And if you are a patron of our

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Patreon, you get free shipping. So consider that.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_00]: There's like a code, right? There's a code.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a code to get free shipping and you'll get that once you join the Patreon. But like,

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, that's how that works. That's a nice perk. But, you know, they're available online for

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone. You get them. If you're ever at a live event, we're going to try to bring them so then

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you can get them.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like the murder sheet code. Is that be like a novel?

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we're not doing a late...

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: The murder sheet code. Would we unravel?

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll let it go.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we're not Dan Brown fans in this household, Kevin.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But you could do like a murder sheet version of that.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we don't need to do a murder sheet version of the Da Vinci code. Good lord.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you think the Da Vinci code is perfect, Dan.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it stinks.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's ridiculous and poorly written. But yeah. Anyway, this went...

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I think you'd probably enjoy the movie more if you watched it wearing one of these

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: t-shirts.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes everything better.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't watch it.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes everything better. Even a movie that Anya doesn't like.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel as strongly about how these shirts are good as they do about how the Da Vinci code is bad.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's...

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Extreme emotions. I feel these shirts are amazing.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're done.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, whatever.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll show you...

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You drove that off the rails, sir. That was you.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll show you how it's done next week.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a great weekend, everybody.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime,

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: slash murdersheet.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests,

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: slash murdersheet.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet,

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

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