The Cheat Sheet: Libraries and Legislatures

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[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: This episode includes discussion of violence, murder, and crimes of sexual nature.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So today on the cheat sheet, we are doing four cases.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: One is from Virginia.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Another is from New York.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Another is from Vermont.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's an additional one in Colorado.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, two of them aren't really cases.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're stories, I guess.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll find out.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Four topics.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Four topics.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, there you go.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a journalist.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an attorney.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Cheat Sheet, libraries and legislatures.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think we should start off by giving an update on a case we actually covered quite a while ago.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And, well, first of all, our source for this is WKBW.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to tell us a little bit about this?

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is a case where we previously covered on April 19th of 2023.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And special shout out to the person who also alerted us to this new development.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And that, of course, is Mary Williams-Steers.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a wonderful peer within the true crime podcasting space.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You can check out her podcast on Facebook.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's called Meddling in Mysteries, Murders, and Missing on Mondays with Mary.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: She is wonderful.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll include links to her show notes, to her Facebook group in our show notes.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And she also runs the WNY Missing and Unidentified People.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Mary is a wonderful advocate and has done a lot of great work.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And, again, thank you to her for letting us know about this development.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a case I've always found haunting.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the case of Markita Mull.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That's M-U-L-L.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So she disappeared in the summer of 2021.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so a few months after that, a woman in Chautauqua County, New York, is hiking along the trails there.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And she sees something in the woods that seems strange.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it turns out actually to be a human skull.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So she calls police and they're investigating.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And in the course of their work on this discovery, they actually find that about 10 yards or so away from this skull is another person's body.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And that other person is Markita Mull.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this raises all sorts of interesting questions, one of which are these two crimes related.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think we have an answer to that yet.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But we do have a development in Markita's case.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to tell us a little bit about it?

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: There has been an arrest.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is a pretty major development, actually.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a suspect named Richard J. Fox.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He's from Buffalo, New York, and he's 61 years old.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: He is also a convicted and registered sex offender who was responsible for multiple crimes and violations against women and girls.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, he was convicted of raping a 14-year-old girl back in the 90s.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: In the early 2000s, he was convicted of attempted rape and aggravated sex abuse of an adult woman in Buffalo.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's always disturbing to me in cases when there is someone who is brought out and perhaps looked at as a suspect or, in fact, convicted of said crime.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: When there's a history of that sexual abuse where someone keeps getting convicted and then, for some reason, keeps getting let back out in society to do the exact same thing to other people.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So, obviously, this man is innocent until proven guilty.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Just because of his history, that doesn't necessarily mean that he did it.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But if the evidence against him is strong and if he is convicted, then it's incredibly disturbing that he was let out again and again and given all these second chances just to harm other people.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really don't understand why someone like that would get so many second chances.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very, very frustrating and it's something that seems to happen over and over again.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something that causes a lot of innocent people to suffer needlessly, perhaps in this case, including Markita herself.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have all the answers in this case.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: The investigation is ongoing.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The county district attorney of Erie County, Michael Keene, did say that this is something they take very, very seriously.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He also indicated that this was a multi-agency investigation.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I am sure that once more information comes out about the efforts behind this, that some of our questions will be answered.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm certainly curious about the details of this investigation and how they settled on this person.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, follow Mary.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: She has covered this case extensively, knows a lot about it.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll try to check back into it when even more information comes out.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: She is your absolute best source for crime in that part of the country.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: She is incredible.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And go back and listen to the episodes we did with her.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: She's...

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll include some links so you have easy access.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So, this next case is in not too far away in Vermont.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The source for this was the VT Digger.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: This is obviously one I picked.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's...

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about you.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And by you, I don't mean just Anya.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean all of you.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I find, like, legal process things to be interesting.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Even when sometimes it's not really entirely clear to a layperson, like, why are you doing it this way?

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The result is still the same.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you have to jump through these extra hoops?

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just...

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It just fascinates me.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you find that interesting?

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's interesting, yeah.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like almost a...

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like studying a different culture, a different language.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, whoa, they're doing things a little bit differently than you would do.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, it's kind of interesting what you're talking about specifically with, you know, almost jumping through hoops just to have the same result.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But when you understand the legal world better, you kind of understand it where it's like, well, you're not just supposed to do it any old way.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You're supposed to do it the correct way.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So it kind of becomes fascinating seeing how attorneys build a case and how a judge safeguards the case, you know, both on the side of the defendant's rights and on the side of, you know, making it so it's not going to get overturned on appeal.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So in this particular case, a man was charged with murder, Mr. Deffen Moffitt.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: He was arrested for his alleged role in the death of a woman named Jessica Hildenbrand.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that death took place all the way back in 2019.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Miss Hildenbrand was a woman who had actually been missing for months before her remains were ultimately discovered in a gravel pit.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And here is where there is a bit of a problem.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I say her remains were discovered there.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not 100% clear there are her remains because there was a preliminary identification saying, yes, these remains belong to Miss Hildenbrand.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are further tests to absolutely 1,000% lock down that identification, including presumably DNA tests.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And those tests were not done.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the argument could be made that how can we try this person for murder and for murdering this person, these remains in particular, when we're not even certain 1,000% that these remains belong to that person?

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that seems like a pretty big problem.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So the state went to the judge and said, well, what we should do is let's just delay the case.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: This delay would give us time to do these tests.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And then once the tests come in and they confirm, yes, it's definitely her, then we can all move forward.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And the judge said, no, you can't do that because you've already delayed this case a few times.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not right for the defendant to have these charges, these murder charges hanging over his head indefinitely.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Especially when you guys had the time and the resources to get these identification tests made and you just didn't do it.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's on you.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, this is, yeah, this is pretty problematic.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm actually, I've looked into this a little too.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is my sources WCAX.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently the victim in this case was actually in a relationship with, with this man who is accused with Moffitt, who is accused of her murder.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And she actually even wrote an email to the Windsor County State Attorney's Office saying that she was very scared for when Moffitt got out of jail, that he would come kill her.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And then a week after he got out, she was gone.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, yet another thing where there might have been.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly a circumstantial case.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: By just what you've said there that tends to point towards guilt.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But you still have this issue of is all these remains hers.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what's concerning, too, is that when there's a mistake like this for whatever reason, you know, I imagine this guy would get released.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, no, he's not.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's going to stay incarcerated.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm saying is that the way they ended up doing this changed nothing.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Lawyers.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So should I get back to lawyers?

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Lawyers.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: See, I thought you were going to be like he got out.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I stressed nothing changed.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The judge said it's not basically it's not right for him to be having these charges hanging over his head forever.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't delay it.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So what the state did was, well, we can't really prosecute this case without these test results.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So we are going to ask for the charges to be dismissed without prejudice.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That when you dismiss a charge without prejudice, that basically means you have the right to refile it.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Without violating double jeopardy.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no jury has been seated in this case.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So if something is dismissed without prejudice, you can refile it.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: If something is dismissed with prejudice, you cannot refile it.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So they said, well, what we'll do is we will dismiss them without prejudice.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll do the tests.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: If the tests come back in as we expect them to and offer a confirmation of this identification, we will go ahead and refile the murder charges.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And so your question was what happens to him in the meantime?

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is he then still remain in jail?

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he was convicted on federal drug and firearm charges last May.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They got him.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's in jail awaiting sentencing.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: He's buried custody.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then at least there's no public safety threat then.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, it's like if they had delayed it, the results would be the same.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: He would still be in custody.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And presumably if the test came back in and it turned out not to be hurt, then perhaps the charges would be dismissed.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't delay it.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So they dismiss the charges with the option to refile.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But he remains in custody.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And in a way, the possibility still hangs over his head.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So do you think this is just silly lawyer games or do you think it makes sense?

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to dismiss it as silly lawyer games.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it's easy for lay people to look at something like this and be like, this is just like kind of a stupid musical chairs formality.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, like, I think we want our legal system to dot its I's and cross its T's, so to speak.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So you don't get it.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the nightmare situation is, you know, years in, they finally look at the results and say, whoa, wait, that isn't her.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That, you know, someone else was murdered and this is like, you know, he was wrongfully convicted of something totally he was unrelated to.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, that's that's what you don't want.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think when you have people cutting corners, you you run that more of a risk of that.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think in my opinion, maybe this is just my own feeling, but I don't think a lot of people in the legal system are perfect.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also don't think a lot of people in the legal system like want to convict innocent people and ruin lives.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think, though, that sort of thing becomes more likely when you're just, you know, kind of rushing along or kind of just assume, oh, well, no, it's probably your body.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just move on.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's not fair to anybody.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I I respect it on some level, even though it kind of looks ridiculous in the outside.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would I would argue, yeah, it does look ridiculous to some extent on the outside.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But there is an important principle at stake.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You really don't want to have a situation where we allow in this country for people to have charges filed against them before the case is ready.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they have to deal with this indefinitely for extended periods of time.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And on an assumption, like maybe the assumption is correct that this woman who went missing around the same time and was found in this place in the preliminary test, whatever.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it probably is her.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, you have to know that.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, like, you know, if you have.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have situations where a prosecutor's office is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, and kind of rushing along too quickly, I would hope that that would be a wake up call of like, let's make sure we're really ready to go.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, you have, you know, people who are public servants who are probably have a lot on their plates.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can understand where, you know, things can kind of slip through the cracks.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's the right thing to do to make sure that that especially I mean, this is a murder case.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, it's obviously pretty severe, pretty important.

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[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it would be a much more complicated thing for most people if the guy would have been released.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that would have been a scandal.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They would have gotten a lot of flack for that because then it's like even if the mistake was just a human error and like wasn't anyone being terrible, like it's like now the burden is on the community to possibly be endangered by that mistake.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's I think, you know, you do see things like that do happen rarely, I'm sure.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But like I think that's when you see like, oh, my gosh, what is going on?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's also a reminder of the heavy burden that prosecutors carry because there are so many little details for them to have to be aware of and have to act upon.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they make a mistake or forget to do something, then that can cause really significant issues down the road.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The judge in this case wrote in his decision that this wasn't a case of the state acting in bad faith.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They weren't deliberately trying to delay this this test so they could trick him or anything like that.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just what he called a regrettable oversight.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And you definitely don't want people manipulating the system by like, oops, we didn't do it.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we're just going to like you don't want that either.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But it sounds like in this case, it wasn't that so.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's important to remember that just as a principle, the prosecution should not file charges until such time as they are ready to act upon them and press them in court.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That is one of my you just touched on one of my least favorite things in true crime.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: One of my least favorite things.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here we go.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Time for an Anya rant.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll put my feet up.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you love my rants.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's no, it's not even a rant.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just more of like I understand.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: When I was listening to true crime podcast when I was just a listener, so many times I would be listening to someone and they'd be like, these prosecutors don't want to file charges because they only care about their winning record.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Or these prosecutors are scared to take on this case because it might not be good.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like I remember I would sort of uncritically listen to that at the time and be like, wow, it's awful.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm like, no, that's not you don't just like spin the wheel of roulette and say, whatever, this case stinks.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, let's do it because that's pretty I mean, like that's misconduct.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want a prosecutor to file charges on a whim.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You want a prosecutor to only file charges when he believes he or she believes he has a strong case that would result in a conviction because you don't want innocent people to have to go through the burden of a trial.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not a casual decision. And when people in true crime are like doing anything to try to pressure a prosecutor either way, I think that is really misguided and inappropriate.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can I mean, listen, there's a difference between that and saying, hey, I think police investigators should dedicate more resources to this case or the media needs to pay more attention and pressure, you know, more resources into the case.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine. That's commendable.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But essentially doing it like, you know, filed charges, filed charges.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: No, like that. It's got that's how you get wrongful convictions.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. We are all concerned about wrongful convictions.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And the way you get them is when prosecutors don't when prosecutors file cases, they are not a thousand percent on cases in the borderline.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And I just I just think I think I see true crime people almost like denigrating prosecutors who don't file charges sometimes as like.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Career minded or whatnot. And it's like, you know, that that that is what could be the difference between not having something implode in a really bad way.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I think also we're aware of cases out there where prosecutors have perhaps filed prematurely or too early.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the person they are prosecuting has been acquitted.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's it. That's the end of the story because of double jeopardy.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's it's better to I mean, it's I mean, listen, it's it's easy for me to say that it's frustrating and horrifying if a family member or an advocate really feels like something is is is up and wants action and wants movement.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I so understand that. But it doesn't mean that that's at a certain point, you know, the legal system is not something it's not a casino.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not something to be kind of like abused or like just kick it around until it starts working.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, it's got a case is is ready.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good case or it's not. And I kind of I don't know.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like people should be more understanding of that.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So we move on. Yes, sir.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to Virginia. And my source for this was Fox News.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I love Virginia. Sorry. Anyway, you have a history with Virginia.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I went to school there. It's a beautiful state.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. And this isn't a specific case, but it was coverage.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Coverage of the fact that Virginia is considering passing laws which would enable people who deal with fentanyl, who sell fentanyl to be charged with murder if that dealing results in death.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is interesting because there are such laws here in the state of Indiana.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've covered them.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: We interviewed two wonderful attorneys and actually quite a number of people for our series, the fentanyl files, where we're talking about.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to come back and do more fentanyl.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We're definitely going to we're going to do more fentanyl cases for sure with the fentanyl files.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We're kind of still kind of ramping up post Delphi trial with all of our coverage plans.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But that is something we plan to resume.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And we had the fortune of speaking with Delaware County deputy prosecutor.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Zach Craig.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Zach Craig.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A wonderful, wonderful prosecutor who I remember just that was like the most heartbreaking interview.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He cares so much about these victims of fentanyl overdoses.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We talked to him on the one hand and then our wonderful friend, Tim Sled, who is the chief public defender in Lawrence County, Indiana.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He came from a different perspective as someone who's defended people from these charges.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And they both were so insightful.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You should check out those episodes.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll link to them.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Both of them very intelligent, very articulate.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Both of them care deeply.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's fair to say about people whose lives have been affected by fentanyl.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: They just have different perspectives on how these laws work and how effective they are in dealing with the problem.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think what Mr. Craig was saying was essentially this is something where there needs to be accountability.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: If you are giving someone a poison, even if you're selling it to them, that will that kills them.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And at this point, I think people are pretty hopefully well aware that fentanyl is is potentially very deadly.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That person needs to be held accountable.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And perhaps that person needs to be put away for a time where they're not able to do this to other people.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: What Mr. Sled's contention is, is that the war on drugs in the United States is a is a failed paradigm.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And we need to instead of fighting the low level dealers who may have addiction issues themselves, we need to take the fight to higher ups, people who are really making money off of this all the way down to cartels in Mexico.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, it's it's kind of like, how do we deal with this?

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And so these laws can be somewhat controversial for people who've lost somebody to fentanyl overdoses and fentanyl death.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think families want to see accountability for the for to a large degree.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: They want like this person sold this to my son, my daughter.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They died.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I want accountability.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, I think if I live in the city where the streets are being flooded with fentanyl,

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I would I would want my prosecutors to have tools to help get the people who are putting fentanyl out there, give them off the streets.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is one such tool.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, I also, you know, at some at some level, if we are just sort of fighting these small fights and not not, you know, taking it to maybe the source, taking it to a excuse me, like a higher level.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we're just kind of trying to deal with the symptoms rather than cure the disease.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe maybe you can do both.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you can do both.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's I don't know.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I also think that perhaps beyond what we're talking about here, having having robust social services and having easy mental health and medical treatment for people, things like that can also be good to help deal with maybe help catch people before they even fall into that.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of this stuff is people medicating themselves, whether that's for physical pain or mental anguish.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you can kind of say, no, don't wreck your life with, you know, hard drugs and fentanyl, go get this, you know, easy to obtain care.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then I guess we that would be a lovely fantasy land.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not the world we live in, unfortunately.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a nightmare out here.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But it would be it would be good.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of people is important and can help can help people falling in, avoid falling into crime and avoid falling into these kind of addiction spirals.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's complicated.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I I'm not really coming down either way.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I just I'm interested in what people have to say about it.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So Virginia is taking this step.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Are they doing anything unique with this or is it just they're just trying to figure out an approach?

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people look out there and they see all the suffering and death caused by this awful, awful scourge.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And they want to figure out something and they're trying to figure out something.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something they're looking at.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to highlight this because when I see stories about legislatures or whatever talking about issues we've covered on the show, I think it's worth talking about.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's something they're talking about in Virginia.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would imagine that over the course of the next few years, a lot of other state legislatures might be weighing things like this.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I also would just say, too, just from an educational perspective, if you have young people in your life, young people experiment with drugs.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, I mean, that happens.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people do that and they're fine and they don't.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing happens.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But with fentanyl, like you can get the wrong pill and just die.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no do over.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't even like it.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's dangerous in that way where people can take it.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they think it's something else or, you know, I just have those conversations with the again, the kids, the younger people in your life.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not worth dying over.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like we're well beyond the realm of like you might get addicted.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We're into the like you will just straight up die mode.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's important for, you know, because, again, like young people are so used to being preached out about this stuff and you ruin your life and whatever.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like this is like very much more of like a binary at this point with fentanyl.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Have those conversations.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's move on to a rare unmitigated happy story.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Whoa.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: On the murder sheet?

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: On the cheat sheet?

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found this.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that'll shock everybody.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a story with nothing really sad or upsetting at all.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Then does it belong here?

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Should I just forget it?

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Should we just skip to the ad?

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just get depressed.

[00:33:44] No.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The ad always depresses people.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The ad, the morale will be boosted and then completely obliterated in a matter of moments.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So don't worry.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Sit tight.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a story out of Colorado.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And my source for this was, I'll admit I was not previously familiar with this source.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's called Chalk Beat.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And it is a story about a woman named Toby Ertelt.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I apologize if I mispronounce that name as I almost certainly am.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: She is a school librarian.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: She actually won the 2024 Distinction in School Library Services Award from the Colorado Association of Libraries.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we all love librarians.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I adore librarians.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember there was one librarian I absolutely loved growing up.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And she really helped me really love reading.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just, librarians are amazing.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, we love libraries, librarians.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We record many podcast episodes in different libraries.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: As we speak, we are planning tomorrow to record.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we're not going to do it.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, we might if some bad things happen.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We're recording on Monday in a library.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We're definitely recording on Monday.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're recording on Tuesday in a library.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, where?

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We got a lot of interviews right now.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're talking more about that in a minute.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a nightmare.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So, why are we talking about a Colorado librarian?

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to actually read an excerpt from this interview she gave to the good people at Chalkbeat.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They asked her, tell us about a favorite lesson to teach.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And where did the idea come from?

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And she replied, my favorite lesson is the Murder Mystery Research Project.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: It focuses on research skills, which is hard to teach because it can be a dry subject for middle schoolers.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We introduced research skills in sixth grade and dive deeper in seventh grade.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We cover four main areas of information, including whether it's from a credible and trustworthy authority,

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it contains various types of bias, what the purpose of the content is, and the date it was published.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we stage a murder in the library with three sources of evidence.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The crime scene, eyewitness statements, and suspect statements.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The students use their research skills to investigate the crime.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: In the end, they make accusations and give their evidence.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: The students are always so engaged.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It helps bring home the importance of authority, bias, content, and date,

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and helps them understand the importance of evaluating what they read, listen to, see, and watch.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya, your comments.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, I love that so much.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is amazing and adorable.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds like she's definitely a true crime fan and is applying that interest in order to help kids develop critical thinking skills and research skills that they absolutely need.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That is awesome.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of us should go take this class.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to take it.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have been so all over this in middle school.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have totally, oh man.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: These are things that we all need to be aware of.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to know how to research.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to know how to evaluate the positions people are arguing from and whether or not they're coming from a place of bias.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is legitimately something everyone could use, including us, including adults, including.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good thing to kind of assess how am I reading things?

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: How am I engaging with something?

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00]: How am I dealing with bias?

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this credible or not?

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Should I discard it or not?

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and what a great way to learn about research and things like that than by something like this, which is fun.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because when you're just forcing kids like this is really super dry stuff, they're probably going to be like, whatever.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But if it's like a fun murder mystery, I mean, geez, that doesn't really get more interesting than that.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's fun.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's cute.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is really I think this is a nice story and I appreciate you finding it.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if I mentioned this on the show.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I've certainly mentioned it to you privately.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But learning about skills like this through fun interests is how I think I really learned about critical thinking, because when I was a child, I was very interested not only in things like the JFK assassination, but I was interested also in things like Bigfoot and UFOs.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And researching those topics and learning the details behind those things, it really helped me learn critical thinking and how to evaluate and come to conclusions.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's such an important skill because you can be smart as a whip and have terrible critical thinking skills.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And that will strip you up every time because it's a skill and it's kind of almost a muscle you need to work out a lot or it atrophies.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would say that this is so cool.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's nice.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also, you know, frankly, a lot of people within true crime could use this kind of class, you know, because I think.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: A rare happy story here on the murder sheet.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this woman is a librarian.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Librarians work with books.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of books.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, gosh.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: What a masterful move right there.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So we, as you probably may have heard, I don't know, maybe you didn't.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We are working on a book ourselves.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's called Shadow of the Bridge.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about the Delphi murders.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're actually writing it now.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a process.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Deadline a lot sooner than we thought.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be fine.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're doing lots of interviews for it.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We're doing so many interviews.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This book is going to be.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them, but not all of them are on the podcast.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We hope this to be very comprehensive as a book.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: About the Delphi case.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And we hope it to be a definitive work on the Delphi case.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The Delphi case is one of those cases where it can be difficult because it's so sprawling.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many years of like you feel like almost an archaeologist like excavating Troy.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, here's the first city of Troy.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And the second, like, you're like just stuff upon stuff.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And what we're trying to do with the book is like tell the story.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell the truth.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell the comprehensive version of what happened.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And as Ms. Ertelt is well aware, a number of sources are biased or come from a place of bias where they are arguing a particular point of view without necessarily telling their audience that they're doing so.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you know some of the people I'm referring to there.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you really have to work hard to get to the actual truth and the full details.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And it can be difficult to go back and listen to like even credible things or credible news outlets or credible sources.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Like go back and listen to everything or watch everything.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully this will be kind of a work that kind of stands the test of time on this.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are –

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You can preorder it on Amazon.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can preorder it on Amazon.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe you can also preorder it on bookshop.com.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We will be including links to that in our show notes.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But one thing that we will note is that preorders really, really help us out and are very important.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We have been told I don't understand publishing so I don't really know why.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But preorder, we would so appreciate it.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It would mean a lot to us.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to do something fun for everyone who preordered soon once I can –

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Once we finish the book.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Once we actually finish it and have some time to ourselves.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're going to be doing some – there's going to be some fun treats.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So –

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: For the preorder people.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: For the preorder people, the elites, the preorders.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you'll like it and I think it will be really fun.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, yeah, tell your friends.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have friends who also really enjoy books on crime, this could be a cool thing, cool gift for them.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Or they could buy it themselves and learn all about an interesting and very tragic case.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So that would be a way to spend money and not get something for a while.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: What if you wanted to spend money and get something like right away?

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then you only have to turn to murdersheetshop.com and purchase one of our beautiful, illustrious shirts.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: The shirts that are the mark of a true crime aficionado who everyone can respect and admire.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They have the murder sheet people written on them.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That's because if you get one, you're a murder sheet person as far as we're concerned.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can show everyone and have the proof of that.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're beautiful with colors of blue and red and other colors.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of teal situation going on.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They're quite lovely.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Quite gorgeous.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, you can certainly wear them yourself.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You can put them on your pads.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You can put them on your Christmas tree.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, here in Indiana, we've had a big snowstorm.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed there's a lot of unclothed snowmen.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Could I, Anya, could I put a murder sheet person's t-shirt on a snowman?

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You could definitely do that.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this because we watched Hot Frosty?

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that where this came from?

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not seeing you come up with any new approaches.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I like it.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I like it.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Would the snowmen come to life and be like a murder sheet fan?

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You see, one thing I try to do is I don't make promises that are too extravagant.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You seem to be promising that if they buy one of these shirts and put it on a snowman,

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it will come alive and listen to the podcast with them.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm asking you.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That won't happen.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm asking you.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not going to happen on you.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You're lying to the people.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Saying it.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking a question of the legal expert, the so-called legal expert on the show.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But maybe you'd have some insights, but I guess not.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I would just say you can put it on a snowman and you can enjoy.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You say, oh, look, that looks cute.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying it's going to bring the snowman to life.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't that be cool, though?

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Just trying to sprinkle some imagination into these ads.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't like to lie to the people.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the people are delighted by a whimsical image of a snowman come to life who loves the

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: murder sheet.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It's too whimsical for you.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: For the likes of you.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have anything more to say?

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, are there other elements of the ad that we normally incorporate into this that

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm forgetting?

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We said the URL.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, hang on.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We said the URL.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: There's shirts.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: There's usually a bad joke.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We usually fight.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Fight.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We fought.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I yell at you to push the button.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that it?

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This one felt really short.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Are we losing our touch?

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We're getting more succinct?

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it a mercy for the listeners?

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me know this.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that the supply of t-shirts is not what it used to be.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're sitting there in your easy chair saying, well, I'll just wait and order a t-shirt

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: at my leisure.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you may be out of luck.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Got to get on it.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Get out of your easy chair.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Go to your electronic device.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Access the information for Highway.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: What?

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You're telling people how to use their computers now?

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And go to the address Anya mentioned.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Murder Sheet Shop?

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Murder Sheet Shop dot com.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I keep almost saying the wrong thing.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's panicked.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know what's going on.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's Murder Sheet Shop dot com.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We should have come up with a better name.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What was...

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: What was...

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Sheet Shop?

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: What?

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't...

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you going to...

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you going to call it?

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you want from us?

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We're shambling enough.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I tried to end this.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: gmail.com.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: authorities.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: sheet.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: slash murder sheet.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of messages.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us?

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting on my jacket.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: costs really well.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They give you Italian leather handbags.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00]: They do like European linen sheets.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I like the way you look in your bomber jacket.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It looks super cool.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I have, yeah.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And deservedly so.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive.

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of sensitive.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It really bothers me.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: These are so soft.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just very delicate and soft.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not, you're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_00]: looks great, but it doesn't feel that great.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They look great.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They feel great.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I really love them.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: time.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You got something a bit different.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I do wash my clothes.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You just made me sound awful.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00]: looks good.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Great products, incredible prices.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Quince.com.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can go to quince.com slash msheet.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's quince.com slash msheet.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash m-s-h-e-e-t.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This is really a wonderful product.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So what does that mean?

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: fall asleep pretty easily.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And they've been such a wonderful support to us.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They're a longtime sponsor.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00]: We really love working with them and they really make this show possible.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say this.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And it kind of makes it possible for us to do the show.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to get a great deal.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very high quality, high value.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's Viahemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Spell the code.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_00]: M-S-H-E-E-T.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us?

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: helps us out.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much to Acorns.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it possible for us to do this job.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So we really appreciate them.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We love our sponsors.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Acorns is a terrific investing app.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: journey.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That can seem daunting.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It is daunting.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so not financially minded.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like,

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: what am I doing?

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: investing.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That money can help you, your kids.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a family, your retirement and you don't need to be rich.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to be an expert to do this.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very simple.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: themselves financially and make their money work for them more.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: investing for your future today.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Paid non-client endorsement.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Tier 1 compensation provided.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Investing involves risk.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.