The Cheat Sheet: Provocations and Predictions

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[00:03:14] Today on the Cheat Sheet, our travels take us everywhere from Texas to California to the United Kingdom. You and I actually both picked out UK cases. Independently. Independently. We didn't plan this. No prior consultation. It was like a Kreskin moment. And... Only more romantic. Yeah, and we also, I think it's... Texas and California feel like they mirror each other in some way. They're both kind of extreme states, you know, big extreme states. So I feel... Okay. There you go, you know.

[00:03:44] And at the end of the episode, more information about our upcoming live appearance, including how to get tickets. Absolutely. So stay tuned. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Cheat Sheet. Provocations and predictions.

[00:04:12] A really important question to start out with for you, Kevin.

[00:05:00] And that's just, did I say provocations correctly? I feel like when... No matter how prepared I feel for an episode, sometimes there are words that I see and it just is like the podcasting equivalent of hydroplaning. We were like, oh, here we go. Spinning around. Don't know if I did it. Yeah. It's very stressful because you're used to just reading as you do in life and you're not always thinking, oh, I have to say this word in a moment. Yeah. Like just looking at your notes for the first case you're going to do. There's like a stadium.

[00:05:30] No, I'm pretty confident on the stadium. Oh, gosh. I shouldn't be. I didn't look it up. I just... I've seen the same name in Indiana. So I'm going to pronounce it that way. I used to be very much a perfectionist about this stuff and I'd like stop the presses. Like we're going to figure out how to say words. And at some point it's just like you're still going to get a bunch wrong.

[00:05:51] So what I prefer to do is just kind of say, try to do the research, try to figure it out when I can and go for it and then apologize afterwards. We have a great audience. They're always, if we make a mistake, whether it's... It will rip us apart. No, I'm just kidding. They will tell us, which is good, which is what we want. So we appreciate you guys keeping us getting it correct and hopefully we don't mess anything up too bad. But here we go. Here we go.

[00:06:21] I just needed to start out with... That's not like pronunciation. That's just more like how do you say a word? And I think I'm the kind of person where I don't talk to people or I'm not the most extroverted. So I feel like sometimes I read a word a lot, but I'm not used to saying it in conversation with somebody. So then I just wing it. Yeah. If you talk to people who grew up reading more than they talked, you're going to encounter a lot of eccentric pronunciations. That's a nice way of putting it.

[00:06:50] All right. So this is a very tragic case out of Texas. Frisco, Texas, to be exact. It's gotten a lot of national media play so far. And it's gotten a lot of controversy so far, which is obviously unfortunate. But this is a case about two young men who had some kind of confrontation at a track meet. And one of them ended up being stabbed in the heart by the other and dying. And it's very tragic.

[00:07:15] So sources for this are the New York Post and WFAA, local TV news station. So the two young men at the center of this were Austin Metcalf. He went to Frisco's Memorial High School. And then the other one is Carmelo Anthony. He was a senior at Centennial High School. So they're both at a track meet in Kuykendall Stadium in Frisco, Texas.

[00:07:44] And there is some kind of confrontation. So this is his situation where much of the news reporting is based on the police, I believe, the affidavits, the kind of police report describing the incident. And there's discussion of Anthony sitting in the rival high school's tent. It's rainy. It's a rainy day. So there's tents, pop-up tents, and he's sitting there.

[00:08:11] So not really much context given to why he's sitting with the opposing team or what's going on. And Metcalf approaches him and tells him that he's not supposed to be there, that that's for their team. So at this point, there seems to be some statements, according to reports, that there's some kind of – there's words exchanged basically like to the effect of, I believe, touch me and see what happens from Anthony.

[00:08:39] And at some point, Metcalf basically grabs Anthony to bodily remove him from the tent. Anthony responds by pulling out a knife and stabbing Austin, stabbing Metcalf once in the chest, stabbing him in the heart, which, of course, killed him. Metcalf died in the arms, tragically, of his twin brother, Hunter.

[00:09:07] So this is obviously something that escalated way beyond. I mean, I think – you may have been to a high school where there's some roughhousing between teams or, you know, maybe there's a fistfight between rivals. I mean, you're dealing with teenagers. You're dealing with the emotions and people trying to prove themselves. And so, you know, some level of violence isn't necessarily like totally wild here. But the, you know, the idea of someone getting stabbed to death is obviously pretty extreme. Yes.

[00:09:36] So here's where things get kind of off the rails to a certain extent. There's been so much misinformation in this case that's been spread around ever since that the local police chief basically had to come out and say basically stop doing this. I'm talking about people spreading that Metcalf actually died of an overdose and not, you know, like a knife to the heart. People, there's a narrative.

[00:10:03] And I've seen, like, some of these social media groups. And they're all, like, completely, like, poorly moderated. You know, I mean, I was in one talking about this case. This is a Facebook group I was in. I'm not going to name it because I don't want to give it, like – it's not worth your time. It just seems like – there was just, like, virulent racism. There was people just, like, making stuff up. The thing I keep seeing is, like, you know, oh, well, Metcalf was bullying Anthony.

[00:10:34] From what I read from, like, press reports, these kids didn't know each other. There wasn't, like, some longstanding issue between them. This was, like, a momentary interaction that went way off the rails. So I don't know whether people are getting that. And there's a lot of victim blaming, you know? I mean, there seems to be, like, kind of a genre here of kind of basically saying, well, you know, he maybe pushed him so he deserved it.

[00:11:00] I mean, I would hope that most of us could agree that, like, a teenager doesn't deserve to die because they shoved somebody. If this was a situation where Anthony shoved him back and he hit his head and died, that would be – I think – I would be in the sense – I would be in the mode of, like, well, that was truly – like, I'm sure he did not anticipate that. It was just a heat of the moment thing. But when you're pulling out a knife and stabbing someone, that's a different situation.

[00:11:29] So there seems to also be a huge amount of, like, racial division over this. Whereas Metcalf was white, Anthony is black. So there's people sort of making assumptions around that. There's people being racist towards Anthony and sort of making all sorts of assumptions about him. I don't think that's fair. I also don't think it's fair about people making a bunch of assumptions that, you know, Metcalf was in the wrong because he's white. I mean, it's just stupid.

[00:11:54] Just, you know, race-baiting grifters on both sides being race-baiting grifters. It's just like – I think the people who are despicable are the people in that category, you know, who are making this about some sort of racial issue. I think that's ridiculous. There's no indication of that. But now, Anthony's family has been out in the media talking about how he was a really good kid.

[00:12:18] He got a – you know, had a high GPA, was doing well, working a lot of jobs, responsible, you know, comes from a good family. I mean, all that can be true and somebody can make a really tragic error, obviously. But one thing that keeps coming up is self-defense, the concept of self-defense. So I actually looked up the Texas statute on self-defense and this is what I found. I'm just wondering if we can kind of talk about that from the legal setting. Sure.

[00:12:44] What does Anthony need to prove or need to have in his corner to show, yes, this was self-defense and, you know, that's why this happened. And therefore, that would allow him to make an argument in court on that. You know, all this social media stuff just – I mean, I really strongly encourage people to ignore this kind of stuff, especially when a case hasn't even gone to trial yet. Just like let it play out. We don't need to – you know, the thing is like responsible people let it play out.

[00:13:10] But then, you know, all the people who are lunatics come sweeping in and make it – you know. So it's like I don't even know if we should let it play out, but we should not be – it's not responsible to spread some of this stuff around. And it really disgusts me. But anyway, let's look at the self-defense thing. So, quote,

[00:14:28] That's a lot of confusing word salad. Basically, what it's saying is if a person's actions fall into one of these named categories, then you don't have to prove that the use of force was reasonable on your part. It's just presumed.

[00:14:56] And those categories are, for instance, if someone's trying to break into your house. Right. That's – you don't have to go and do an in-depth investigation to establish that you are reasonable to use force. If someone is trying to commit kidnapping or murder or sexual assault, then you don't have to prove that your use of force was necessary. It's presumed. So that's what this first category is.

[00:15:24] And that clearly is not something that applies in this case. No, Metcalf was not attempting to break into Anthony's house and was – you know, he was – people might be saying, well, he was pushing him out of the tent. But that doesn't – that's not a kidnapping, right? I mean, like, that's – so we're not seeing anything that really fits here. But let's go to the next section. Two, did not provoke the person against whom the force was used, end quote.

[00:15:54] What does that mean? So they're saying that if the actor did not provoke the person against whom the force was used. There seems to be some kind of conflict between these two kids that precipate – you know, that kind of precedes whatever happened between them. So I guess that may be to be determined or – but it seems like there's some kind of squabble.

[00:16:19] So the next part, quote, was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used. So these are just categories that if it falls into one of these categories, you don't have to prove that your use of force was reinstable. Does that make sense? Yeah. And then here's the part where it says when the use of force is not justified.

[00:16:47] Quote, the use of force against another is not justified. One, in response to verbal provocation alone. So that makes sense. So if Anya says, Kevin, you're a big galoot, I can't shoot her. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting example here. Staying hydrated is a key part of health.

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[00:18:32] That's A-Q-U-A-T-R-U dot com. And enter code MSHEAT at checkout. That's 20% off any AquaTrue water purifier. When you go to AquaTrue.com and use promo code MSHEAT. Well, I know what choice words I'll be using after this podcast. Because now you know you can get away with it. Get away with it scot-free. So, can't just be like cursing at someone and be like, well, no, I can shoot them. Got to walk away from that situation.

[00:19:02] What's the next category where it's not justified? Quote, to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under subsection C. Obviously, it's not applicable. Yeah, you can't shoot a cop who's doing his job. Pro tip. So, quote. That'll be relevant a little bit later in the episode. Interesting. But we digress.

[00:19:29] Quote, if the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other, end quote. Is that like if it's like we're in a karate competition? Like, don't pull out a gun and shoot your opponent? Yeah. Okay. Quote, if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless, A, the actor abandons the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter.

[00:19:57] Or, and, B, the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor. So, the use of force against another is not justified if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

[00:20:13] So, what I think they're trying to say there is earlier we said if someone is trying to commit a crime or a kidnapping, what have you, if in the course of their commission of that crime, the person fights back, then the person who's committing that crime can't say, well, hey. You're resisting me kidnapping you. Now I'm justified to use legal force. Does that make sense?

[00:20:43] It does make sense. And here's another part. Quote, if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences with the other person while the actor was, A, carrying a weapon in violation of section 46.02, or B, possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of section 46.05. So, none of these things fit this case? No. No, no.

[00:21:11] Is there any part of the statute that you think that if you squint, it does fit the case? Not necessarily. I mean, it's a matter of, it seems like there's some recognition that Metcalf did touch him and pushed him or put hands on him in some capacity. So, it's not like this was simply a verbal dispute.

[00:21:37] It's not as if this was simply a conversation that got heated. So, there seems to be some physical element coming from Metcalf. But at that point, you're looking at does a shove or a push or a touch warrant a stabbing? Also, why does a teenager bring a knife to a track meet? I mean, that is something that I think is another kettle of fish. Another kettle of fish. But I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's for his own defense or there's some reason for that. I don't think that matters that much.

[00:22:05] But I do, you know, it just, when you're looking at it, you know, I'd be also interested in what the circumstances were of him sitting in the opposing team's tent. Like, was he friends with someone? Were they chatting? And then he's interrupted and he gets mad. Like, I mean, this is more of, this has less to do with what, you know, self-defense or not. But it really has more to do with just my own curiosity. Here's the other thing.

[00:22:32] I mean, we have the police report. We have, you know, Anthony's family has been out in the news saying that he didn't initiate the situation. That can very well be true, but that doesn't necessarily matter if he's the one who escalated it, legally speaking. It's possible that Metcalf started it by saying you need to leave. But that doesn't warrant a stabbing of an unarmed teenager.

[00:22:58] So, you know, I think this is something where I think we can keep an open mind. We can look at it. And if there's, you know, if it comes out that Anthony was being attacked by multiple people and was afraid for his life, then you might start seeing, okay, there's a, you know, potential argument for self-defense here. Right. Right.

[00:23:23] Just because, you know, a shove isn't a big deal, but a bunch of people punching you, you know, like that, that might be a big deal. That could, you know, you could die. So I would imagine that would be something that would change the game. If things transpired as have been described, which is basically a request and maybe a shove, do you see that being an effective self-defense argument? No. It doesn't really seem proportionate at all.

[00:23:53] It doesn't seem proportionate at all. And what's concerning now is that the New York Post reported that Anthony's stepmother has claimed that they have a PR firm. So I'm not saying that every true crime figure who gets a PR firm is, you know, spreading misinformation online. But it certainly happened in the Karen Reed case.

[00:24:15] And the fact that they have a PR firm, or so they claim, and we're seeing just massive amounts of misinformation on this case spreading throughout social media really raises my hackles. That is, that may be a coincidence, but it may not be. And I think people trying to gain the system, and what they're doing is they're essentially slamming a dead teenage boy who, like, lost his life.

[00:24:45] I mean, like, I find it sick. The Anthony family has claimed that they have gotten threats as well. And, you know, I mean, there's been discussion about that. And interestingly enough, the city manager spoke to WFAA, and basically, this is Wes Pearson, basically said that, like, quote,

[00:25:09] So while the threats described are terrible, we caution against any conclusion, including about coordination without verified evidence. So it's interesting that as Metcalf is sort of being smeared in what looks to me like an organized campaign, the Anthony family is claiming that the same is happening to them. So I guess we'll see how it proceeds. But either way, I think this is something where people make it about race or people make it about this or that. It's just, frankly, stupid because two young men, one died. One is not going to get it live his life.

[00:25:39] And then the other one is facing a substantial prison sentence. This isn't like a football game. This isn't like two rival teams. This is like this is a tragedy. Can we just like maybe sit with that for a minute before we start, like, making up stuff about them? I mean, like, right. Right. And like I would want to know, I mean, like, I think Anthony has a bad time possibly with a self-defense thing.

[00:26:00] But if he's got some issues, if he's got some struggles, if he's got some mental health stuff going on and this is like a reaction that's born out of that, I think that's something we should hear out. I don't think, you know, necessarily maligning him is like this. I mean, he's a kid, too. Right. It's just it's tragic. It's tragic. So it makes me sick to see people making it into some stupid online blood sport. But I guess that's true crime for you. So anyways.

[00:26:26] Oh, and that Give Send Go website that like does a lot of, you know, really controversial fundraisers for like Luigi Mangione. And I think Kyle Rittenhouse was all over there, you know, and they've been hacked a bunch of times. You know, GoFundMe does not allow for funds to be raised for defenses for violent crimes. That's just their policy. They do not allow that. So, you know, you have other sites trying to get that business.

[00:26:53] And he's the Anthony family has raised over three hundred thousand dollars. So that's where we are as a society. Now, let's go to the United Kingdom. Go across the sea. Let's go across the sea. A rare international edition of the cheat sheet. I hope you brought your passports. Jeez. This is from the BBC.

[00:27:16] And also I read the sentencing remarks from Johanna Cutts, a.k.a. Mrs. Justice Cutts. Can I just say, as an American, the most delightful thing about the U.K. legal system is that they call their judges Mr. Justice or Mrs. Justice. I love that. That's just wild. I feel like a lot of judges here would love that. Don't you think? Yeah, of course. Mr. Justice. I think you'd like it.

[00:27:45] No, I'm not a judge. So I just I love that. So this is also a very tragic case that makes me sick to my stomach. It's not because of misinformation, just because, like, I'm going to say something and then maybe at the end when we talk about this case, you'll kind of understand it. But, like, there's this type of crime that makes me angry where, like, a lot of crime makes me angry.

[00:28:13] But, like, I can understand, like, in the Anthony Metcalf, you know, that sort of situation. Like, you know, a heated situation can turn bad and people can make bad decisions. And it's really sad and tragic at the end of the day. But there's another type of case where it's just, like, a loser man or a loser male basically decides that, like, their inability to, like, you know, have friends or have a life is, like, all the problem of all women and just slaughters women for no reason because they are just a loser.

[00:28:40] Instead of working on themselves and trying to become a better person or become a more interesting person, it's like, no, I'm just, like, a lazy piece of garbage. So I'm just going to make it everyone else's problem. And I have mixed feelings about the death penalty, but I feel like people like this should be, like, you know, thrown into the fucking seat. Like, I just – it disgusts me. Shot into the sun. Strong words. No, it's like you're just a waste of space and you're making it worse for everybody else instead of just dealing with your own issues.

[00:29:09] Like, how dare you? Like, what a – like, I can – I do not – I cannot – you know, and it's like, you know, you're not supposed to say that because, like, it's all supposed to be – you know. But it's like, no, no, no. Women are not going around – women who are losers, they might be – they might be making people's lives worse in some – but they're not going around and, like, hunting down random men to kill them. That's not happening. That's only happening with, you know, men doing it to women. So, I mean, like, men need to figure their stuff out with this.

[00:29:39] Like, I really – like, what is – what is going on? And in this case, I don't think this guy was linked to any sort of incel subculture. I don't think it's necessarily – I don't think you can put it all on that because this kind of thing has been happening, you know, since people were people, I think. I just think it's – it's – I don't know. It just pisses me off because these women had the rest of their lives ahead of them. They were doing everything right.

[00:30:03] And just somebody being a total loser, you know, was enough to make it so that one of them is not here anymore. And I'm not going to read this guy's name. And the reason why is because whenever I read about a killer seeking notoriety, my natural impulse is to be like, well, we're not naming you on the show. Thanks for playing. You know? Like, why give him that, you know? So what happened? What's the case?

[00:30:29] So on May 24th, 2024, two friends named Amy Gray and Leanne Mills were on the beach at a place called Bournemouth. Sorry if I'm saying that wrong. And they, like, lit a fire and they were just catching up. It was just, like, you know, two friends. It was just a normal situation. And then this guy wearing a hood comes up and starts stabbing them. So he is – he's stabbing them.

[00:30:58] He starts stabbing Miles first, I believe. Then he turns his attention to Gray when she sort of distracts him. Ultimately, Gray is stabbed ten times and succumbs to those wounds. Leanne Mills is stabbed 20 times, mostly in her back, and survives. And there's no forensic evidence. So this is why, you know, when people say, okay, well, how could there be no forensic evidence? There's – sometimes there just isn't. There just isn't sometimes. Like, we have to get out of the CSI effect.

[00:31:27] We have to get out of assuming that a case is like a Chipotle where you can come in and order stuff of, like, okay, I'll have some DNA and a murder weapon. You know, police can't do that. They can't bend reality to suit their needs. Sometimes killers are prepared, as in this case, and sometimes killers do get lucky.

[00:31:45] So, you know, this – the one thing that this case did have, though, is there were a lot of CCTV surveillance footage cameras in the area. And the police were – Dorset police were able to essentially, like, put it together like a tapestry where they're following the killer. And they had to follow him for quite a while.

[00:32:08] But ultimately, they follow this guy into a convenience store and he purchases something. And this doofus used his bank card. So this guy is this 20-year-old guy. He's a criminology student at the University of Greenwich. And he – I think he thinks, you know, he's studying criminology and criminal psychology. He thinks he's this, you know, criminal genius and he's going to be able to get away with this. But he uses his bank card to make the purchase so they get his name.

[00:32:37] And they arrest him. Here's what they never get from him. They never get a murder weapon. They never get a piece of forensic evidence. So, again, whenever I hear people saying, I can't believe X case didn't have X, it's like that's just because you don't know what you're talking about and you're not widely read about crime. And you've never listened to a podcast in your life because many cases don't have everything you want them to have.

[00:33:06] Even cases involving knives and stabbing. People can get rid of stuff. They can get rid of evidence. Sometimes things just don't work out. Sometimes offender DNA is, you know, sometimes somebody just doesn't happen to cut themselves when stabbing somebody. Or they're wearing gloves, protective gear, you know. It just doesn't always happen. So this is how weird this guy was.

[00:33:30] He creeped out his own lecturers where, like, there were people who were talking about, like, self-defense and DNA evidence. And he, you know, or rather they were talking about, like, different things. And then he was asking about, like, well, what counts as self-defense? And, like, tell me about DNA evidence. Even though, like, the seminar he was at didn't get into any of that. And so his lecturers were kind of like, one of them was Dr. Lisa Maria Rice. And she asked him, you're not planning a murder, are you? But he was, unfortunately. This is something that did not come into trial.

[00:34:00] And this is something that often happens where, like, things don't actually get brought up in trial. But they're very telling. But they're just prejudicial. They're not something that should be shown to a jury because they're just too damaging. And they don't necessarily prove anything. So he, in front of a female prison officer, he started touching himself sexually when he was, while asking her questions about how much press the case was getting. Yeah.

[00:34:29] So that was why I didn't want to name this guy. He was a total social misfit. No friends, no girlfriend. No real interest, I guess, in improving himself in order to, like, get those things if he's unhappy about it. Um, and, uh, you know, people might be thinking, did he have any sort of deep-seated hatred of women? Uh, the court said yes. But he's not part of any sort of, like, online forums or movements about, like, anything like that, seemingly. He just watched a lot of horror movies. He really liked The Strangers.

[00:34:58] That's a horror movie. And, uh, said it was because the killer had no motive. So, just a weird freak all around. It's just a waste of space. And, you know, there's people who just, like, come into this world and don't really do anything of merit and just kind of take away from others. But let's take a moment to focus on the victims here because I think Mrs. Justice Cutts had some really poignant things to say to them, to say about them.

[00:35:27] Um, so, uh, this is about, uh, oh, also he tried to, I think, uh, argue, uh, autism for mitigation. So, continuing the trend that we see. A very, I mean, like, you're hearing a lot of parallels between this and Brian Koberger, right? Yeah, you seem to, yeah. Criminology student, uh, you know, things like that.

[00:35:49] So, this is, this is, uh, this is something about, um, this is something about the killer first and then I'll get into the victims actually. Quote, why did you do as you did? Dr. Ruthenberg's report sheds some light on that. You have experienced difficulty socializing and communicating with others by reason of the fact that you have some autistic traits, although you do not have ASD.

[00:36:10] It seems that you have felt humiliated and embarrassed by repeated rejections or perceived rejections of any advances you have made, particularly towards girls, which has over time resulted in a deeply suppressed rage toward, directed towards society and women in particular. You developed an obsessional fascination with violence, horror, crime, and in the mind of those who kill, in the mind of those who kill, and a deep-seated urge for revenge against society.

[00:36:34] In Dr. Ruthenberg's view, you identified yourself with the mind of a killer because you wished to feel the power of which you felt society had robbed you by rejecting and humiliating you. The idea of being recognized as a dangerous killer became appealing to you. End quote. We need to be raising our children with the idea that, you know, they're not owed anything. They're not owed like a hot girlfriend, you know? And, and, and relationships are not some sort of prize to be won.

[00:36:59] They are, they are about companionship and finding someone who loves and cares about you and that you want to share your life with. And if you want to attract a good person for that, work on being a good person yourself. It's, it's not, it's not just something where, hello, I am a man, give me girlfriend. That's not how any of this works. And it just seems like that's not being communicated to like a certain subset of young men for some reason. So let's, let's talk about Amy.

[00:37:26] Quote, that crime left a family devastated by Amy's loss. A family understandably struggling to understand what has happened and to cope. At the time of her death, she was 34 years of age and much loved by her close family and by her friends. She was clearly an exceptional young woman who was full of life and always there when anyone needed her. Cousin Megan speaks of Amy being her safe place, making her feel loved and welcome wherever they were together. She was brave, strong and independent, always striving to be better.

[00:37:53] She was a carer for her 90-year-old grandmother who has Alzheimer's. Her mother speaks of the great future she had ahead of her. She was happy having recently been made head coach of Dorset Futsal, which she loved and for which she had received an award which made her justifiably proud. She had just started to plan a new work venture. She had much to live for, not the least her young daughter who must now face a life without her mother's love and support. This was the person whose life you took in your act of random brutality.

[00:38:18] You must face the consequences of your action in the punishment I impose upon you today. But I recognize that nothing this court does can bring Amy back and her family must forever live with her loss. That said, her warmth and personality continues to shine. As you serve your sentence over the many years you were in custody and are quickly forgotten, she will live on in the hearts of those she inspired and who loved her. So, let me get the actual sentence.

[00:38:47] So, I believe it talks about mitigating and different factors. I just want to make sure I have the right number before I say it. But you're hearing, I mean, that exact sentiment is why these kind of cases enrage me. Like, this woman's life was lost because this guy's a loser. Right. So, he has to serve a minimum of 39 years. That's where this comes down to, essentially. I don't think that's enough, but that's just me.

[00:39:16] I mean, he could get out and have life to live, and I just don't. I respect the judge's decision here, and obviously they have a different system than us, but I feel like once you do something like this, like, meh, nah. At that point, it's beyond rehabilitation for me. That's just my opinion. What do you think? Yeah, I think you make some good points there. Certain people don't change. I don't even care if you change. I mean, what are you going to—

[00:39:43] This woman doesn't get to live her life because this guy had made this decision. So, it's like, I think some people are primed for rehabilitation, and I think doing something out of the heat of anger or something like that, that's fine. This was a calculated, disgusting, planned-out murder that happened for no reason and deprived people of Amy. And there's no making that right. And, you know, when people say, well, yeah, but we don't have to punish people for it. Eh, I don't mind that. I can live with that.

[00:40:14] Anyways, let's go to your UK case. Well, my source for this is The Guardian. And before I really get into it, I feel kind of bad because you did two really great jobs researching those cases. You offered some good commentary, some very passionate commentary. And mine, the two cases I picked this week, they're just cases that are like pretty much all I have to say is, hmm, what do you think of that? Well, that's good. It's more light. Right?

[00:40:44] Well, I don't know. I feel the fool. No, you're not the fool. So I apologize to you. No. I apologize to the listener. Kevin, everyone, you're a delight, okay? You're going to do a great job. And just because I like to rant and I get ticked off by some of this stuff. Also, thank you to the listener who recommended the previous case from England. So I appreciate them. Wanted to shout them out. Thank you. But, you know, I think we both bring a different vibe and that's okay.

[00:41:12] And there's nothing wrong with your cases. I looked at them. So I think they're interesting. So the cane seal of approval has been given. Yes, it's been grand. It's been bestowed. Well, pretty much all I have to say about this is, huh? So the UK government, this isn't really a case per se. The UK government apparently at some point saw the movie Minority Report and it said, hey, that sounds pretty good.

[00:41:40] And Minority Report is about a future where you can tell someone's going to commit a crime before it happens. And so the UK government is now developing a murder prediction program where it can use personal data of different people, including victims of crime, to try to identify people in advance who they see are at risk of committing serious violent offenses.

[00:42:08] And that, to use a technical term, sounds creepy. It just, we all hate it. We've all had the experience where, like, we say something like, oh, I'm looking for a hairbrush. And then you go on Facebook or Amazon and suddenly you're inundated with ads for hairbrushes.

[00:42:32] So there's so many invasions of privacy and we all deal with different algorithms and the like. And so now whatever data they have, they're going to try to predict who is going to commit violent crimes. People there are concerned, justifiably so, that perhaps some of the conclusions they reach might be either classist,

[00:42:58] by which I mean they might tend to target more people who have lower incomes, might also be racist, by which I mean they might target people who are not white. And also it's not entirely clear to me what they plan to do with this information. So it's disturbing and odd. What do you think of it? I feel like maybe those resources could better go into a different kind of, like, crime mitigation

[00:43:28] or, you know, preventing people from entering a criminal life. Youth programs, you know, helping people deal with addiction, substance abuse, domestic violence, mitigation, helping people get out of toxic relationships. Yeah, I feel like those things could perhaps be the emphasis. You know, I don't. Yeah, what will they do with it?

[00:43:55] Yeah, it's not really entirely clear. The Ministry of Justice spokesperson said this project is being conducted for research purposes only. Okay. Help us better understand the risk of people on probation going on to commit serious violence. A report will be published in due course. So it's for people on probation?

[00:44:22] That's not clear either because also it's including data from crime victims. The whole thing, it feels odd to imagine that once you have the capability to do this kind of research and to gather this sort of data, you would just limit it for research purposes. It feels like you don't gather a lot of materials just for research. You gather to do something with it other than just have it. Well, yeah.

[00:44:51] I think a big part of the problem with this is that it's so vague. I mean, like there might be some world where they describe it and it's something, okay, well, that doesn't sound so bad. But it sort of sounds like I don't know. This may just be the way the article is written, but it just seems a little bit like, okay. Philip K. Dick. Philip K. Dick. We're doing this. Don't worry. Well, I don't know. Don't worry about it. Just for research purposes, folks. Don't worry about it. It's like, okay, I don't know.

[00:45:19] I would want to know a lot more about that and what, you know. I would be curious about what sort of information they're gathering about me and what sort of conclusions they're using or drawing from that information and what exactly they plan to do with that. I just imagined a bunch of alarms blaring at the researcher's headquarters and they're like, get in here. It's an emergency. And there's like a printer and your face is printed out. And they're like, oh, this is the worst one yet.

[00:45:48] Somehow you've gotten into the system in the UK and they have concerns. They don't know what you're going to do. I might buy an issue of the Sad Sack comic book. Is that a crime? I think in your mind it is. Should we move there? Could be penalized for that. I don't know. Yeah, it's troubling. And I just, you know, again, sometimes things sound really dystopian and then you look into them and this is kind of overstated in the press.

[00:46:15] But like if you don't have officials explaining exactly what they're doing. And that's true. Sometimes things sound dystopian and they're not. And other times things sound dystopian. And they are. They definitely are. So that was one of my cases. No, it was good. Well, you know, I mean, as we kind of get into more and more of this, you know, technology, you know, it's important to discuss this. I mean, like. You don't want people being spied on because they might commit a crime.

[00:46:45] That's really disturbing. The technical term is creepy. So the other case, my source for this was Yaku. And actually, as soon as you got out of bed this morning, I said to you, I called dibs on this. You did. Although I don't know why. I'm waking up, man. What's going on? Dibs on the Weezer case. I don't know why I wanted it, but I wanted it. I don't know what. You don't even know the band Weezer. You don't even know it. I don't. I barely know it.

[00:47:14] But you don't know it at all. Wasn't Weezer affiliated with the Little Rascals and our gang back in the 30s? Oh, my God. What generation are you? Yeah, I know. Kevin. And here's the thing. We're talking about the group Weezer. Kevin is a fake Weezer fan. And I don't mean the band. I mean, well, you're not really a fake Weezer fan. I think you do genuinely appreciate. We watched a bunch of old Our Gang shorts, also known as the Little Rascals. And wow, some of those have not aged well. But Weezer was like the original star.

[00:47:42] And I grew up watching the Weezer ones and the later ones. But you only did the last. I did the MGMs. MGM era. So you were unfamiliar with Weezer at all. But, you know, anyway. We're getting way off base here. It's the wrong Weezer. And we're getting way ahead of ourselves.

[00:48:03] So there is a woman, a true crime author, among other things, among other items on her resume, named Jillian Schreiner. She wrote about Samuel Little, the serial killer. I believe she spent like 40-some hours interviewing Mr. Little. She is also, as we have indicated, we don't want to say the most important thing about a woman is who she happens to be married to. Pardon me. I'm not sexist like my co-host.

[00:48:34] She's my co-host, Kevin Greenlee's wife. That's why I'm highlighting her other personal accountants, such as the true crime. She also, this is getting some attention because she does happen to be married to a gentleman who's affiliated with a musical aggregation known as Weezer. And so she is in her home, in her neighborhood. And the details are a little unclear.

[00:49:00] But in the vicinity, there was some sort of a hit-and-run car accident. And three of the people involved in that incident, they flee. They try to get away. And they run into this neighborhood where Jillian Schreiner lives. And police seal it off. They go in there. And they're trying to get these guys.

[00:49:26] And Ms. Schreiner decides, well, what I'll do is I'll get my gun and I'll go outside. Always a bad idea. Almost always. It's not clear what her motive was. Maybe she wants to protect her property. I don't know. But she goes out there with the gun. And she has an encounter with the police. And the police tell her, drop the gun.

[00:49:55] Drop the gun. And here's one thing to remember. If you are given an order by the police, even if in your heart of hearts, you think, well, they're going too far. This isn't right. That moment is not the time and the place to litigate and figure that out. In that moment, you obey the order.

[00:50:19] And then if you are convinced it was wrong or improper or you've been victimized, there are times down the road where you will have an opportunity to deal with that, perhaps in a courtroom. Because it's unsafe. And you should. But you don't do it in that moment. So I don't know what was in her head, but she did not drop her gun when they ordered her to. And then she did the worst possible thing she could do in that situation.

[00:50:47] She raised her gun and she pointed it at police. And at that point, police shot her. Her injuries were relatively minor and non-life threatening. But she has now been charged with attempted murder for pointing the gun at the police. I mean, wild. And I just what was going through her head. I'd be really curious to know. Like, I I don't understand that.

[00:51:18] You should know if you point a gun at police officers, it's not a good idea and it's not going to end well. The only thing that I can think of, like, I mean, that that gives her the benefit of the doubt is a very poorly timed mental health crisis. Or maybe she didn't understand that they were police. Maybe she maybe her raising the gun is misinterpreted. And she's I was trying to return it to them like that judge in California we keep hearing about. Right.

[00:51:46] So who knows what sort of defenses they will they will raise? Well, you know, yeah. And was this caught on video or I believe there's footage of at least part of it. OK. And maybe body camp footage, I would imagine, potentially. So, you know, we might get more context. Maybe it maybe absolves her somewhat. Maybe it maybe it makes it clear that the police's version of events is accurate. Either way, it's just sad. I mean, it's just like I don't know. It's like what?

[00:52:12] Like it's not even like she was on the run here. Like what? Like like it wasn't like targeted at her. Yeah. There's no connection between her and the people who were involved in the hit and run and trying to escape. So it's just a bizarre incident. And I'm going to do something very artful here. And I wonder if maybe she would have handled it differently if she had spent more time like in a library. That's not artful. That was just dismal. Yeah.

[00:52:43] I'll go on. But I'm shaking my head. And so this is something that we heard from recently from one of our librarian friends. So if you listen to the show, you are aware most likely that it's been a couple of times where our audio sounds really different. And that's usually because we're in a library. So we when we're on the go oftentimes or we don't want guests to see our messy office, we will do our interviews in a library.

[00:53:11] We'll record a show in a library. And libraries has been just a terrific resource for Kevin and I with this show. It's just very easy to just book a conference room, very easy to go and research cases there if they've got some books on crime that we want that we don't. Kevin, for some reason, doesn't have in his own vast personal library. You know, the library and libraries are friends. I mean, they're just wonderful places. And we've had just a great time sort of meeting some of the people who work there.

[00:53:40] We've done events that we did an event at the Greenwood Library, the Danville Library, to name a few, the Indianapolis Public Library. They're just, you know, they're awesome places staffed with awesome people. And as you can tell, we're huge fans of libraries. Oh, we've recorded at Peru Library. We recorded at the library in Kokomo, the Delphi Public Library. The Fisher's Public Library. Fisher's Public Library. So like this is something where, you know, we really we are very partisan pro library.

[00:54:08] So it made me sad when we heard from one of our library friends that apparently in Indiana there is a Senate Bill 1 that is what the Indiana Library Federation is saying is that they feel that this will be incredibly devastating to libraries throughout Indiana, particularly rural libraries. This is going to hit the small rural libraries the hardest. This is bad because libraries aren't just a place where you store books.

[00:54:36] They're a place where, you know, there's community events, there's programming. It's helpful. It's good for communities. And this bill is basically going to cut funding in a big way. And federal funding is getting cut at the same time. So this is just kind of a huge disaster, to be honest. It makes me it makes me really sad. You know, I feel like that's I don't know.

[00:55:03] So, you know, it's going to be fewer staff, fewer programs, limited, very limited hours, you know, limited limits to the collections, e-book collections, things like that. And they're going to be losing, I think, like a ton of money in terms of, you know, what's going to be offered anymore in terms of the, you know, I think they said that, quote,

[00:55:49] End quote. There's been a massive push to reduce income taxes and taxes in general in Indiana. And obviously, I think a lot of us don't like paying taxes. But I also really don't like my quality of life, you know, plummeting and the quality of education and frankly, like things like law enforcement. So, I mean, like, I think we need to look at, like, are we cutting bone or are we like what a certain point, you know, this just gets to be ridiculous.

[00:56:17] And I think going after libraries is personally, in my opinion, that's that's ridiculous. I agree. Thank you for mentioning that. And, you know, I'm about to do something very artful here. You know, another town that has a library is Columbus, Indiana. Oh, wait, can I just say one more thing? Please do. Before we do this, because, yeah, you're being a little too artful for your own good.

[00:56:37] On Monday, April 14th at 10 a.m. at the state house, the Indiana Library Federation is staging an event. And they're asking library supporters, join them for that library advocacy day again at the state house with the Indiana Library Federation. Monday, April 14th, 10 a.m. They really want people to show up to show legislators how important these library services are.

[00:57:02] And, you know, maybe convince them, hey, maybe we don't slash and burn to the same degree that we were going to do. And as I mentioned, there's a library in the great town of Columbus, Indiana. It's the Cleo Rogers Memorial Library. And I forget, have I taken you to this library? Because, of course, Columbus is my hometown. There is this structure at the library, this huge structure, which looks almost like the back legs of a dinosaur.

[00:57:31] And I'm not making that up. And that's there. And you can go look at it before you go into or out of the library. And I mentioned this not only because it's my hometown, but we will be appearing at Columbus, Indiana for a live event at the Swine and Dine. We're going to do a live recording of an episode. We'll be taking questions from the audience.

[00:57:53] And the event, the event, Anya, is going to include cereal, which is why Anya insisted we go. I have a question. When is it? It's on May 13th. The link for tickets, I believe, is going to be included in the show notes of this very episode. And last week we talked about how Columbus is my hometown. It has all these great buildings. And I said, some people call it the Athens of the Prairies. And we got an email.

[00:58:22] And it turns out the person who first called Columbus Athens of the Prairies, Lady Bird Johnson, the distinguished former first lady of these United States. Wow. That's pretty cool. And then didn't you say you looked it up and there's a lot of places that say they're the Athens of the Prairies? Yes. While you were slaving over your cases this week, before I slapped mine together, I was like looking up Athens of the Prairie.

[00:58:47] The great actor Vincent Price visited Columbus and he referred to the Athens of the Prairie slogan. It's not quite that, but it's still pretty good. It's got great buildings. It's got the library. We love Columbus. The Heracos, an old time ice cream parlor. Yeah, it's awesome. And we'll be there on May 13th. Check out the time. It's going to be in the show notes. Check out the link if you want to buy a ticket. Buy a ticket. We'd love to see you there.

[00:59:16] We don't know if Swine and Dine is owned by the same people behind or, you know, by the swine himself, a.k.a. True Crime Swine 89. We don't know. This may be an elaborate trap by him. So I just. This may be your last chance to ever see on you. And you, you're going to be there unless you're going to just throw me to the wolves or the swines in this case. But yeah, I think it may be an elaborate trap. It may be for real. Either way, it's going to be a good time.

[00:59:47] And we're really excited about it. And I'm just kidding. It's not a trap. It's just it's it's a joke. Some people are listening to this and they have no idea that the swine lore and I'm not going to explain it right now and I'm going to leave them confused. And that's OK. It's part of the show. We're not leaving confused about at least some weird thing we said. But if you have questions about true crime swine, one way to get answers is to go to this event and corner Anya. And then she will give them she will tell you more than you want to know.

[01:00:16] I'll look really shifty. I'll be looking around trying to get out of it and then I'll tell you all about it. But it'll be really fun. It would be really nice to see some of you guys. And we're really looking forward to it. And these are awesome people throwing the event. And so you should you should check it out and come see us. Columbus, Indiana, right off the interstate. Easy access. I think there's limited tickets. So you should if you're interested, I would lock that down. Yeah, that makes sense. Lock it down. It was. It was flooded.

[01:00:45] But hopefully that's I'm sure that's gotten better. But yeah. But, you know, it's a great city. And I guess the last thing is my hometown. Yeah, it is. That is where you you were raised. So there is we have a book coming out, obviously, Shadow of the Bridge about the Delphi murders. Preorder that. And we will really appreciate it. We're we're really excited about it coming out.

[01:01:13] I feel like it's going to be going to answer a lot of questions. What do you think about it, Kevin? You look a bit nervous. You're not sure what it's going to do. I'm also I'm also looking forward to the book. I want to we've we've gotten questions. The book is not about Anya and me. It's not one of those books where it's like, oh, yes, we were living our lives and we got interested in a case. No, it's a book about the case itself. There's almost nothing about us in there.

[01:01:42] We might at some point do like an episode of the podcast where we talk about the experience of reporting on the case. But that's that's not in the book. And it's just a huge honor to get to work on this book. And we're really grateful for that opportunity. And so we really hope people read it and find it helpful and interesting. Indeed. And tell your friends if they like books or true crime or true crime books, then tell them about this one and see if I'm going to go a little bit further.

[01:02:12] If you have friends who don't like books, still tell them about that. Maybe maybe this will change their minds about this whole book business. Yeah. Let's convert some some readers here. Get them get them involved. Let's save the libraries and read some books. Maybe even dip into the savings account and get a billboard. Oh, God. Don't don't don't be saying that. That's just stupid. What's wrong with you?

[01:02:38] Why are you trying to like get people to don't I'm going to just going to I'm going to nix that here. Don't listen to Kevin. Don't get a billboard. You don't need to get a billboard. Just we appreciate it. If you say something to your friends, you're asking for the moon. That's ridiculous. These people don't always a billboard. I'm grateful that they're spending time with us, listening to us after all the nonsense we've been saying over the years. But I think I think we we don't need a billboard. But if you can spread the word to your friends, that means a lot. And thank you. A billboard.

[01:03:09] OK, I was going to get to a billboard for. You know what? Knowing you, you would pick a weird picture of me. There's some weird. Remember you took of me where my hand looks like bigger than my head. Remember that where I'm reaching out and it's like terrifying. I look like some kind of monster. That one. That one is so funny. People will be driving on the highway and be like, ah, like giant me with a giant hand.

[01:03:37] See, that's no explanation. That's how advertising works. You want to get people's attention. By making your wife look like a monster. That's what it takes. Monstress. That's your whole. Is that like am I going to like drive out here one day and see that and be like you'd be like it's all for the book. Don't worry, babe. It's all marketing. All I'm going to say is in the next few months, you definitely have some surprises ahead. Oh, my. Push the buttons. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[01:04:07] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:04:34] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:04:57] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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[01:06:17] So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. And wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[01:06:46] You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com. There you go. So you can go to quince.com slash msheet.

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