The Cheat Sheet: Searches and Sentencing

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[00:01:46] Content warning this episode contains discussion of murder including the murder of children.

[00:01:52] Happy Friday everybody and of course the weekend means another episode of the cheat sheet.

[00:01:57] Yes.

[00:01:58] Let's get right to it.

[00:02:00] My name is Anya Kane.

[00:02:01] I'm a journalist.

[00:02:03] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:02:04] I'm an attorney.

[00:02:05] And this is the murder sheet.

[00:02:07] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reported interviews and deep dives into

[00:02:12] murder cases.

[00:02:14] We're the murder sheet.

[00:02:16] And this is the cheat sheet searches and sentencing.

[00:03:07] So I'd like to start off this week unless you object as even known to do from time to time

[00:03:15] with a story out of West Virginia.

[00:03:18] And the source we use for this was Fox News.

[00:03:23] This is a bit of a cold case.

[00:03:25] This is a murder that happened about 20 years ago.

[00:03:31] Actually it's a little over 20 years ago where a 10 year old girl and her mother were killed

[00:03:40] and they were never able to satisfactorily prove who did it.

[00:03:46] One of the suspects the woman I believe was estranged from the father of the child.

[00:03:52] And so there was a custody battle going on and also the woman was living with the

[00:03:57] or at least staying with a man at the time.

[00:04:00] And let's give these people their names.

[00:04:04] The names of the victims are Susan Carter and Natasha or Alex Carter.

[00:04:10] Susan was 41 years old and Natasha.

[00:04:13] And this is heartbreaking she was just 10 years old.

[00:04:17] So it wasn't really clear who did it.

[00:04:19] There have been periodic investigations and reinvestigations because just as you

[00:04:26] would hope law enforcement doesn't like to give up on cases.

[00:04:30] And so they kept at it and kept at it.

[00:04:34] And in fact just last year.

[00:04:39] Well rather in November of last year the man they were staying with was indicted

[00:04:45] for the murder.

[00:04:45] This was a man named Larry Webb who is in his 80s.

[00:04:50] He was indicted for the murder in November and he was actually arrested

[00:04:54] for it earlier this month.

[00:04:57] So then as it turns out he became very ill wanted to get in good with Jesus.

[00:05:07] And that's a phrase that comes from West Virginia State Police Chief Captain R.A.

[00:05:12] Maddie who said that because he wanted to get in good with Jesus on Webb's

[00:05:17] deathbed he confessed that he was responsible for the crime.

[00:05:23] And furthermore he gave detailed information about where exactly he

[00:05:32] buried the bodies.

[00:05:34] So a search was done and it turned out that Webb was telling the truth.

[00:05:40] And they actually found the bodies of the victims on the very same day

[00:05:45] that Webb died.

[00:05:47] Wow that is like you know I'm always people often in cold cases

[00:05:52] like I hope we get a deathbed confession that's sort of like the Hail Mary

[00:05:55] of cold cases when there's nothing else.

[00:05:58] And I always think well most people who you know are ruthless enough

[00:06:03] to kill somebody are not necessarily going to be in a place where they

[00:06:07] you know care enough to say anything at the end.

[00:06:09] I'm certainly glad that that happened here.

[00:06:13] Although you know it belated to get in good with anybody frankly

[00:06:19] if you're I mean because the circumstances that they that were revealed

[00:06:24] over this case are just infuriating around you know why you would

[00:06:29] murder a 10 year old and her mother.

[00:06:31] Why did he murder them?

[00:06:32] So he felt that Susan the mother may have been stealing money from him

[00:06:38] and there was missing money so he got into an argument with her

[00:06:42] and ended up shooting her and then murdered her daughter Alex

[00:06:45] in order to cover up the murder.

[00:06:48] And then he says he was so remorseful he cried himself to sleep

[00:06:53] and he was just so upset about it.

[00:06:56] What a nice guy.

[00:06:57] But I would think if you were truly remorseful and truly repentant

[00:07:05] you would accept responsibility for what you did as soon as possible.

[00:07:10] You know I mean.

[00:07:11] There are crimes out there like robbing a robbing a bank

[00:07:16] or robbing a restaurant or stealing a car if or stealing cereal.

[00:07:20] If Anya if Anya steals a box of cereal from the grocery store

[00:07:24] is she is want to do if she feels remorseful is she is want to do.

[00:07:28] We can go to the grocery store either return the box of cereal

[00:07:34] or give them the value of the box of cereal.

[00:07:36] So those are the sorts of crimes we've had to do this many times locally.

[00:07:39] It's actually become a thing.

[00:07:41] Those are the sorts of crimes that can in some measure be undone.

[00:07:45] But a murder of course you can't bring someone back to life.

[00:07:50] You can't bring back this 41 year old woman and her 10 year old daughter.

[00:07:55] But you can make things at least a little bit better for those who cared about them.

[00:08:00] You can let them know where the bodies are so they can say goodbye.

[00:08:05] And you can tell them what happened so they don't have to wonder

[00:08:09] for the rest of their lives.

[00:08:11] And you can avoid putting them through a trial or decades of uncertainty.

[00:08:18] And he did none of these things.

[00:08:19] Yeah. He was doing it so he can avoid going to hell basically.

[00:08:23] And you know what the only positive glimmer in this situation

[00:08:27] is that he obviously was fearful of eternal damnation at the end of his life,

[00:08:30] which he should be in my view.

[00:08:34] Yeah.

[00:08:38] The Natasha's father a man named Rick Lafferty

[00:08:42] is quoted in this Fox News piece is saying it's kind of a sad day,

[00:08:47] but also a happy day because I can bring my baby home.

[00:08:51] That breaks my heart that what that man must have gone through

[00:08:55] for the past 20 or so years is just unthinkable.

[00:08:59] And to to be in a custody situation where you're attempting to get custody

[00:09:05] of your child because perhaps they're not in a safe environment,

[00:09:09] which obviously they were not here.

[00:09:12] And then to be too late and have this happen

[00:09:15] and then to not even know what happened for that long.

[00:09:19] That just makes me so sad for him and the people who cared about

[00:09:27] Alex and Susan.

[00:09:28] It's just it's horrific.

[00:09:30] It's a horrible story.

[00:09:33] Now I wanted to move on to a second case.

[00:09:35] This is a case out of Houston.

[00:09:37] And our source for this was actually the AP wire service.

[00:09:42] And the reason I chose this case is it reminded me a little bit of a case

[00:09:48] we did earlier on cheat sheet.

[00:09:50] And I'm talking about a case where a man sees something at a gas station

[00:09:56] that he believes is a robbery.

[00:09:58] So thinking he's doing the right thing.

[00:10:00] He fires at the robber killing him.

[00:10:03] And it turns out it wasn't a robbery.

[00:10:05] It was a hoax for immigration purposes.

[00:10:09] And I found that interesting because you think of people who commit murders

[00:10:15] as choosing to kill someone intentionally.

[00:10:19] And it's interesting to note and to remember that you can be charged

[00:10:24] with this most serious of crimes even if it wasn't your intent to take a life.

[00:10:29] Even if it wasn't your intent to take a particular life.

[00:10:32] In that case, he had not been charged though, right?

[00:10:34] Like they were kind of debating on what to do with him, right?

[00:10:39] In the other Texas case, I think.

[00:10:40] I thought he was charged.

[00:10:41] Oh, OK.

[00:10:42] Sorry.

[00:10:42] Ignore me then.

[00:10:44] Yeah, it's a thing where I think a lot of people who may not be familiar

[00:10:47] with our legal system are some of the quirks in different states.

[00:10:51] Felony murder, if you're committing a felony and then somebody is killed

[00:10:56] as a result of that felony.

[00:10:57] That's one instance where I can just be trying to do a heist

[00:11:01] and people get killed while felony murder.

[00:11:04] But there's also other situations like what you described

[00:11:07] where there's more nuance in what a prosecutor can do in certain situations.

[00:11:14] So this is the case of a man named Tony Earl's and it involves the death of,

[00:11:21] I'm sorry to say, a nine year old girl named Arlene Alvarez.

[00:11:26] And so what happened in this case is that back on Valentine's Day of 2022,

[00:11:34] Earl's and his wife are at an ATM to withdraw money.

[00:11:39] And at some point during that transaction, an unidentified robber appears.

[00:11:47] He's armed and he takes $20 from them.

[00:11:53] He robs them and he flees.

[00:11:56] And so at this point, Earl's decides to take action.

[00:12:03] And so he fires at a truck which he believes contains the robber.

[00:12:12] He believes the robber got into this truck.

[00:12:15] At least that's his story.

[00:12:16] The robber is not in the truck.

[00:12:19] There's a family in the truck who had absolutely no connection to the crime.

[00:12:26] And including this nine year old girl who is shot in the head and killed.

[00:12:34] And so Mr. Earl's has now been charged with murder for this offense.

[00:12:41] And he is facing the possibility of life in prison.

[00:12:46] So big picture, what do you think of that?

[00:12:48] Well, I mean it's a tragic situation all around.

[00:12:53] Obviously to a certain extent, I'm always going to be sympathetic with someone who's the victim

[00:12:58] of some sort of violent scary crime.

[00:13:02] But much like the case we talked about in a previous cheat sheet with an Ohio man

[00:13:11] and elderly man who was the victim of a scam who then murdered an Uber driver

[00:13:18] who was not part of the scam but that he suspected was.

[00:13:22] That was a horrific case.

[00:13:23] You know, just being the victim of some sort of crime does not then enable one to then

[00:13:29] lash out wildly and recklessly in a way that can then harm other innocent people.

[00:13:37] I think people in this country have a concept of self-defense that is often inaccurate.

[00:13:45] Obviously it differs jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

[00:13:49] But basically I think some people almost think feeling scared is enough to just do whatever you

[00:13:57] want.

[00:13:58] And we've seen again and again that that is not the standard when it comes to

[00:14:04] determining what is self-defense and what is not.

[00:14:08] And I'll say in particular under Texas law, if you were found to have been shooting recklessly,

[00:14:16] then you lose your right to use the self-defense claim.

[00:14:21] So if I'm firing at a car, if I'm firing at a house or something indiscriminately or recklessly,

[00:14:28] I've lost the ability to claim self-defense.

[00:14:31] And I think it's also worth noting that the Harris County District Attorney,

[00:14:36] Kim Og, worked with a special prosecutor on this case who brought in an FBI firearms expert.

[00:14:45] And they indicated through their work and investigation that at the time of shooting,

[00:14:52] Earl's had a clear view of this truck.

[00:14:55] And there should have been no reason whatsoever for him to imagine that it was connected with the robber.

[00:15:04] So they think he was almost like lashing out wildly because he was upset about it?

[00:15:08] I think even if we look at our own personal lives, when people get angry, including us,

[00:15:15] including you, I imagine, you're not always thinking clearly.

[00:15:19] And if you're in a situation where you and your wife have just been held up by a gunman,

[00:15:23] maybe you're not thinking clearly.

[00:15:25] But if you're thinking is fuzzy, if you're angry, maybe that's not the best time to start firing a gun.

[00:15:33] Yes. Also, again, the robber robs you and then is leaving. The danger's over.

[00:15:46] Unless you have some reason to suspect that they're getting into a truck and then are going to drive

[00:15:51] right back and run you over or shoot at you, the danger's over. And at that point, it becomes

[00:15:58] a grayer area. Oftentimes, you have to be confronted with a threat to your life, to your

[00:16:09] safety in order for anything to rise to the level of self-defense.

[00:16:12] Once the threat ends, it's unclear if you can still commit self-defense against the threat.

[00:16:17] Like if a robber robs you at gunpoint and then gets away, goes to his house,

[00:16:23] next day you show up at his house and shoot him. There's not like, oh yeah, you're still,

[00:16:27] like you put your, it's not some sort of green flag to just do whatever you want to this person

[00:16:36] for the rest of their lives. So I mean, so this, so to be clear, I also just the Rashad Scott case,

[00:16:42] which was the death that you mentioned over immigration fraud, also in Houston.

[00:16:47] So these two things both happen in Houston when the ringleader of this immigration scam

[00:16:53] and that was charged with murder. The guy who was the shooter though, Jesus Vargas,

[00:16:58] not clear at this point. So we were both right? We were both right. So there is somebody charged

[00:17:02] with murder. It's not the shooter though. So in that case, I think there's still,

[00:17:07] that that is one where you're kind of like, well, I can understand where Mr. Vargas was

[00:17:11] thinking, I'm saving people from a violent robber right now. But in this situation,

[00:17:17] I think what the, what the prosecutors are saying is like the, the, there was no reason to be just

[00:17:22] sort of shooting at a random car in the situation, even if you were upset and scared about a robbery.

[00:17:28] So he's facing murder charges. Facing life in prison. Wow, that's pretty serious. I mean,

[00:17:34] I would think if you were a defense attorney in that case, you'd be trying to

[00:17:38] make some kind of deal essentially that reduces, reduces time in prison.

[00:17:45] Unfortunately, they don't even have the guy in custody because he is on the lamb,

[00:17:49] so to speak for assault charges in another case.

[00:17:53] Oh, okay. So, okay. Well, there you go. So he's, he's on the lamb for not this,

[00:18:01] but something else that he did or is accused of doing.

[00:18:04] Yes.

[00:18:05] Well, it's scary because you can be doing everything right, protecting your child,

[00:18:10] you know, just in your car and somebody else having a terrible day can take that child's life

[00:18:17] away essentially because of bad decisions, reckless decisions.

[00:18:22] Can rob you of a child you love and cherish and that you had dreams for?

[00:18:26] That makes me so just sad for this family, but also just like disgusted. Like you don't,

[00:18:32] you know, guns are not, I don't think it's political to say this. I think anybody,

[00:18:38] I think people who are anti-gun, I think people who are pro-gun guns are not toys.

[00:18:42] You know, you don't, it's not a, life is not a movie. You don't just like shoot up in the air

[00:18:47] or shoot at a car. Like you're in some sort of, you know, police action thriller because people,

[00:18:53] innocent people can get killed by you doing that. And I think anybody who's a responsible

[00:18:58] gun owner understands like you don't point a gun, you don't shoot a gun unless it is a

[00:19:04] safe situation or you are being, you know, your life is directly being threatened. And

[00:19:11] the fact that people are running around, you know, accused of assault and also just shooting at

[00:19:18] cars with kids in them is just, it's appalling. It's like you don't, you don't deserve to have

[00:19:23] a weapon that can so readily kill people if you're not prepared to handle it properly and

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[00:22:15] Now, in this next case, I really want to pick your brain because it's a case

[00:22:21] where you have been much more in the weeds than me. And this is the Gilgo Beach murders

[00:22:28] investigation. Our source on this is ABC news. Big picture, the Gilgo Beach murders.

[00:22:36] Some people want to give a quick picture and that's what the latest develop some big

[00:22:40] developments in that case recently we've covered on the show as you probably have heard it.

[00:22:45] Give us a big picture. Yeah, no, that's what I'm doing now. So

[00:22:50] jumping in trying to pick my brain too soon. So Rex Hewerman is a New York City architect who

[00:22:59] lived in Massa Pico Park in Long Island and you know an area that I'm actually quite familiar with

[00:23:07] and it turned out he had some sort of DNA match that linked him to the Long Island serial

[00:23:14] killer case. The Long Island serial killer case is one of those like horrific true crime cases that

[00:23:21] lasted for years and it's a complicated case because there are a lot of victims

[00:23:27] and some debate over how many killers. So we have the quote unquote Gilgo Beach victims,

[00:23:35] which were a number of young women who worked as sex workers and who

[00:23:41] disappeared in the you know kind of earliest 2000s and their remains were all found in Gilgo

[00:23:48] Beach bound and wrapped in burlap. And Rex Hewerman has been charged with that those cases.

[00:23:56] There are also other nearby other body parts and remains were found of other people

[00:24:03] some of whom haven't even been identified yet others who have been identified through DNA

[00:24:10] who also seem to be sex workers. So the question becomes are all of these linked because the

[00:24:17] MOs seem to be somewhat altered and even though there's like the linkage of location

[00:24:24] possible sex work occupations but then there's also different you know different somewhat

[00:24:33] different location and then different MOs. So I think some people wonder did Rex Hewerman you

[00:24:40] know he's accused of doing the Gilgo Beach could he be responsible for all of these

[00:24:44] could there be two separate serial killers in operation here we don't know so I mean that's

[00:24:49] one of those things I don't really feel like my mind is super made up yet I think I'd have to

[00:24:52] really go even deeper into the weeds but also like hear out what people who are proponents

[00:24:58] of both theories I feel like I can understand I can understand how reasonable people think both

[00:25:03] things so it's not like I feel like there's an obvious choice there and I would hate to just

[00:25:07] kind of like jump on one bandwagon but yeah as you prepare to go into the weeds potentially

[00:25:15] law enforcement has been going into the woods they have been doing a new search of a wooded

[00:25:20] area in Mannerville New York and this search is said to be somehow connected to the

[00:25:27] Gilgo Beach murders investigation so do you have obviously we don't know any more than that but

[00:25:34] do you have any speculation as to what they might be looking for or what might be going on here

[00:25:41] that's a great question I think it's it's interesting that this is happening

[00:25:47] as they're getting ready for you know I've seen trial at some point in the case of

[00:25:54] Rex Hureman so that almost that alone almost gives the impression that they have something

[00:25:59] based on that and and that's interesting now as far as the location Mannerville is a town

[00:26:09] in Suffolk County so I know that that was one of the places where remains of a woman named Jessica

[00:26:16] Taylor were found and that they were found in I believe it was like 2003 so like pieces of her body

[00:26:26] were found there and in addition to that Mannerville is also the location where pieces of partial

[00:26:36] remains of a woman named Valerie Mack were found so those are both Mannerville cases

[00:26:44] and so we're kind of seeing like a connection there through through Mannerville now let's also

[00:26:51] add another Mannerville name to the to the list um a man named John Bittroth was uh a man believed

[00:27:00] to be a serial killer he he was convicted of murdering two sex workers and he also lived in

[00:27:07] Mannerville so that's just to throw you know throw throw that into the weeds um yeah this is

[00:27:18] so there seems to be a strong Mannerville connection throughout this and um it in fact

[00:27:26] this is interesting but Valerie Mack was even known as Mannerville Jean Doe at one point

[00:27:31] that's very interesting so I don't know whether they have like an additional victim around there or

[00:27:37] if they have uh you know because again unfortunately these women were dismembered if they're finding

[00:27:43] more evidence around that I don't know how they would like know though to look there so that's

[00:27:50] kind of one thing that re because like you know it's one thing when somebody like a hiker or

[00:27:54] mushroom hunter stumble upon something and then call the police did that happen here do they

[00:28:00] have some information is this connected to Rex Huerman or could this be connected to like are

[00:28:06] there two long island serial killers I don't know these are all questions that we'll have to kind

[00:28:11] of be on the lookout for but Mannerville is just this is not the first time this uh little Suffolk

[00:28:16] County town has uh popped up in this case uh let's move on to our next case and this is

[00:28:25] an update which frankly isn't much of an update this comes to us from click on Detroit and this

[00:28:32] refers to the murder of Dr. Devon Hoover this was a Detroit newer surgeon who was shot several

[00:28:41] times in the head at his home about one year ago his body was found covered with a sheet

[00:28:51] in the attic of his beautiful home and this is a man it is fair to say was beloved in his community

[00:29:02] I've joined several of the the Facebook groups devoted to this man and his case and it is

[00:29:10] overwhelming the amount of love and respect and affection this man inspired and were

[00:29:19] over in addition to his friends and family who loved and valued and cherished him he was a gifted

[00:29:28] doctor and so through the course of his work he really improved the quality of life for many many

[00:29:35] people who remain very grateful to him for that so there are a number of people who care deeply

[00:29:42] about this man and who very much want there to be justice in his case and what is interesting as you

[00:29:51] may or may not recall last winter I believe it was November one uh who's the chief of police in

[00:29:58] Detroit said we expect an arrest in this case soon and I believe he even went so far as to say

[00:30:05] that the arrest would come before the first snow falls and that was as I say last winter

[00:30:12] snow has fallen snow has melted there's been no arrest and the good people it clicked on

[00:30:20] Detroit asked for updates from law enforcement and the indication as well we're still working on it

[00:30:27] so two things here first of all it is infuriating that a year later the man that took

[00:30:34] the man or woman who took this wonderful human being from the world is still free and still not

[00:30:39] facing justice and number two it is infuriating that law enforcement has given false hope to the

[00:30:47] family and friends of dr. Hoover and wrote checks and made promises they did not keep

[00:30:53] yeah this is like a pr fail on like a pretty massive level you don't make you don't

[00:31:00] you don't call you don't do the Babe Ruth point the baseball bat and then strike out you like

[00:31:05] you have to be pretty confident to make that work um to make some sort of uh prediction like that

[00:31:14] like you have to be I guess maybe confident is the wrong word I think you should be certain

[00:31:19] before you come out and put yourself out on a limb like that because you know what when

[00:31:23] when that happens the public understandably loses confidence in the police loses confidence

[00:31:30] in their ability to kind of grasp a case we've seen situations in the delphi murders case where

[00:31:37] statements made early on have come back to haunt investigators because you know maybe it was

[00:31:42] just meant sort of offhandedly or on the off the cuff in response to media questions

[00:31:48] but people people cling to it and then they say you know years later if it hasn't been solved

[00:31:53] they say but what about this and I think it's really really important to only do this when

[00:32:00] you're certain that something is going to indeed happen it's better to just be kind of quiet and

[00:32:07] let it play out otherwise and I know it's it's stressful if you're an investigator and you're

[00:32:13] under public pressure yes to solve a case and you probably can make a lot of that public pressure

[00:32:19] go away at least temporarily by making a promise like that but the thing is in the long term it'll

[00:32:25] come back to haunt you people may have backed away from law enforcement after that promise was

[00:32:31] made but now that that promise has not been kept they are going to redouble their efforts to

[00:32:36] pressure law enforcement on this this is not a man whose murder is going to be forgotten

[00:32:42] and I'm going to just say this like I don't feel like the police official who made this statement

[00:32:48] in this case was lying or like being you know obfuscating or I think the more innocent explanation

[00:32:54] is he felt fairly certain that they would wrap it up and just basically spoke according to that

[00:33:01] feeling but I think you have to be more certain than just have a vibe that you're gonna solve it

[00:33:08] or like kind of a good hope that you're gonna solve it I think you have to be like

[00:33:12] we have a game plan to arrest somebody in a few weeks or or now I think that's when you start

[00:33:18] saying things and if you even say things like maybe let the work do the talking I think that's

[00:33:25] ultimately it's it's intimidating to be up against a hungry media media hungry for information

[00:33:32] but that is part of the job and sometimes it's best to just let that play out and

[00:33:40] you know you don't you just don't do this I want to quickly cover another case before we wrap up

[00:33:50] for this week this is a case out of Los Angeles and we got it from abc7.com and I guess one

[00:33:58] of the reasons why I wanted to highlight this case is to again make the point that you really need

[00:34:06] lawyers you really need to talk to lawyers and get their perspectives on things if you're dealing

[00:34:12] with the criminal justice system and one of the reasons for that is there are all sorts of like

[00:34:18] secret languages and codes that a lay person will have no reason to fully understand

[00:34:26] and so a lay person may look at something say oh this looks pretty good and then a lawyer can look

[00:34:32] at and say well actually even though it says zig it actually means zag and so people can find

[00:34:40] themselves feeling tricked if they don't get that expert input relatively early on and there's

[00:34:49] a good example of this in this case this is the case involving a 61 year old woman named Nancy Jackson

[00:34:58] killed a man and his elderly parents so she committed a triple murder and she pled out

[00:35:05] and she pled for a deal that would put her behind bars for 75 years to life and the family

[00:35:16] is saying we're not happy with this sentence it's not good enough and so maybe your first reaction

[00:35:21] this is you know a 61 year old woman getting a 75 year sentence that's pretty good because

[00:35:27] that's basically a life sentence but it's not as good as you think because uh

[00:35:36] it turns out there's an elder statute in California and this means if you're over 50 years old

[00:35:45] and you served 20 continuous years in prison you can come up for parole and so that means even though

[00:35:55] it says on the books this is a 75 year sentence for all intents and purposes it's actually a 20 year

[00:36:04] sentence and so she's only serving 20 years for three murders and so the family says no it should

[00:36:12] be life without parole and that would keep her in there forever and I do think that's interesting

[00:36:18] because you look at it you say oh 75 years yeah what are they complaining about yeah 75 years

[00:36:23] doesn't mean 75 years it means in this case 20 years yeah that's incredibly frustrating I think for

[00:36:31] victims families when when they're when there is that curveball that is not necessarily a parent

[00:36:39] at first and then becomes highly relevant when it comes to parole you know throughout history

[00:36:47] you've always seen cases like that where people are getting paroled people are getting released and

[00:36:52] then it's like wait after they did that even though they got that sentence and as often

[00:36:57] something like that I guess one question is I mean I feel like even if the family of the

[00:37:02] victims had a lawyer they wouldn't have been able to change this much because that's the law on

[00:37:06] the books and that's on the books well the plea deal could have been for life without parole

[00:37:12] right also I think it's important for a prosecutor's office to set expectations properly and say

[00:37:18] here's here's what will happen I think when families feel blindsided and the prosecutor is not

[00:37:24] necessarily you know talking with them through what everything means then you do get situations

[00:37:30] where there's understandable frustration I'm not saying this is what happened here I'm not saying

[00:37:35] this is what happened in Detroit but I think it's fair to say that in a number of different

[00:37:40] organizations if there's some sort of a crisis the temptation is to come up with a short-term

[00:37:46] solution which takes care of it immediately and if you're able to tell people oh there's

[00:37:51] a arrest coming in a couple months don't worry uh overlook 75 year sentence huh then you just

[00:37:58] take that and move on and just hope people forget about it right and like you don't you know like

[00:38:05] you don't no one wants to be the bearer of bad news nobody wants to come in and say okay we're

[00:38:11] we're going for 75 here's why here's why we think that's a better option than life without parole

[00:38:17] and uh but it will probably only be 20 years you know nobody wants to explain that because

[00:38:22] then you get yelled at but or you don't even get yelled at maybe people are just unhappy

[00:38:28] but I think it's better to have that upfront and hear people out and explain why why you feel you

[00:38:34] need to do it that way because maybe there's a good reason I don't know um but then to kind of

[00:38:41] leave people to almost figure that out on their own I'm not saying that even happened here maybe it

[00:38:45] was explained I'm not gonna you know I'm not in the minds of this prosecutor or these families

[00:38:51] this family rather well in the article that was our source it turns out that one of the family

[00:38:58] members of the victims is a deputy district attorney and so he's the one that's like explained

[00:39:03] but all this stuff means oh no so it's not clear to me if there wasn't a family member who was a

[00:39:09] district attorney they would even know that they probably wouldn't yeah I we've seen cases where

[00:39:16] prosecutors offices where families have left thinking prosecutors offices don't really care

[00:39:23] or that they're just kind of um after thoughts and I think it's it's important for I mean listen

[00:39:30] there's situations that we've heard about you know in Indiana where it's like we totally understand

[00:39:38] both sides we totally understand why the family is so frustrated but it's a weak case or it's

[00:39:44] not a case at all really and you know the prosecutor should not bring something if it's

[00:39:49] really weak that's not justice that's not good prosecuting like that's that's you know that's

[00:39:55] kind of an abuse of power actually and so you can see both sides but I think where sometimes

[00:40:01] prosecutors offices can fall short is when they're not explaining themselves to the victims families

[00:40:07] I think you do need to take the time sit people down have a conversation and explain why this

[00:40:12] and not that why this and not that and and take your lumps if people don't like it well

[00:40:19] that's part of the job at least you're honest at least you're candid and and I think that is better

[00:40:24] and people will tend to have more respect for that than to spring stuff on them or make stuff sound

[00:40:31] better than it is very well said as usual oh thank you Kevin well unless there is some

[00:40:38] late-breaking delphi news I don't think we will be talking with you again until Tuesday

[00:40:44] so we hope you all enjoy your weekends absolutely thanks everyone bye thanks so much for listening

[00:40:54] to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at

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[00:41:36] special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet

[00:41:41] and who you can find on the web at kevin tg.com if you're looking to talk with other listeners

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