The Cheat Sheet: Tampering and Tongs

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[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02] So we've got a pretty chock-full cheat sheet for you today. We're actually doing six cases. And just as a quick note, we are trying to schedule things to have a little bit more time to get some things done for the book that we're writing, The Shadow of the Bridge about the Delphi murders. So we are recording this about a week in advance. So if there's any explosive updates in any of these cases, we apologize because currently it's February 14th, 2025, and we have no idea what's coming.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] But maybe there won't be updates in all of them. So we'll see. So today, we kind of are all over the place. We have a case out of Tennessee on the border with Kentucky, a case in Louisville, Kentucky, a case in Cincinnati, Ohio, and a case in Nebraska, and then two cases in the United Kingdom. So we're going abroad as well. And so we're going all around and hopefully we'll learn some interesting things.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01] It was always the possibility.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I would hope. That's why people are listening, Kevin.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01] Let's start the program. Hurry.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Tampering and tongs.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01] Well, Anya, I'd like to start off with a case that comes from our neighbor to the south.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01] This is the great state of Kentucky. And more specifically, this is a case out of Louisville. And this is a case that makes me mad, to be frank with you. Our source for this was WDRB. And what happened is this is a murder that took place at an addiction treatment center.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01] In essence, this woman named Angela Hensley, a 48-year-old woman who chucked herself into this facility on numerous occasions. She is seen going into the room of another patient with a towel around her neck. Apparently, on this camera footage, you can see the other patient is standing. And then when she leaves, the other patient is no longer standing.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01] And apparently, she strangled this poor woman to death. And she says it is because the woman said she wanted to die, so I killed her. And it infuriates me because many of us know people with addiction issues. Anya herself, is she?

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02] I'm raising my hand. You can't see me because this is an audio format, but yes.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01] And one thing that is very, very difficult to do when you are struggling with an addiction issue is to get help, to recognize you have a problem and get help. And so this poor murder victim is someone who quite likely recognized she needed help or her family recognized it.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02] Or the courts recognized it.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01] Or the courts recognized it. But in any case, she is where she should have been safe and where she should have been getting help to have a more fulfilling and a safe life. And that addiction center let her down. There clearly should have been more security there. It's just enraging to me.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02] I'm reading this. Have you seen this statement from the CEO of Landmark Recovery where this happened?

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00] Hit it with it.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I mean, most of it's kind of what you'd expect. And they talk about the staff and they say, quote, because of their response, the patient was able to reach the hospital with a pulse and vital signs, end quote. Why are you bragging about that? Somebody was strangled in your facility. That's not – that blows my mind. I agree with elements of CEO Matt Boyle's response. I do believe that the staff at places like this have a completely thankless and probably in many cases very stressful and difficult job.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02] So I'm not maligning the staff. This is not – in my view, we can all kind of harp on different facilities or individuals or whatnot. This is a societal failing. We are failing as a society to deal with this and it's reducing quality of life for people with addiction issues and, frankly, everybody else. So it's just – I mean, it's a mess.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02] There seems to be a lot – when I talk to people about this, there seems to be a lot of interest from the public in more resources around these things, more support. Perhaps things where people are kind of basically, you know, forced to get help in certain instances. But there seems to be zero political will because it's costly and, you know, we got to, I guess, not incur costs even though it's certainly making society a lot worse that we're just kind of letting people deal with this on their own. People are dying.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02] People are – you know, when they're reaching out for help, there's, you know, seemingly staffing problems to the extent that something like this could happen. It can happen. It's appalling. And it's – again, I don't – I don't really want to beat up on one treatment center because I don't know if this is a treatment center where this is truly just, like, bad timing and horrible luck or if there are serious issues with this specific one. I just don't know enough to know that.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02] But I can tell you that, like, this goes beyond that and it's appalling.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01] It is appalling. It just makes me mad. And if you are someone who – my life and the lives of people I care about has touched the healthcare industry many times. The people who are on the front lines, the nurses, the staffers, they are doing wonderful work. But they often don't get the resources they need. And often not enough of them are put into these facilities.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, and the pay is oftentimes terrible. It's – I mean we – I think we – I don't think we value things that are truly valuable in the society sometimes when you look at, you know, what people who are in caregiving roles are making compared to other people.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02] It's kind of appalling because that's – like, I would say that's perhaps one of the most important jobs you could do is take care of another human being, whether that's somebody with mental health issues, whether that's somebody, you know, who's disabled, whether that's somebody who's elderly or dealing with addiction issues. And it's just – it's a topsy-turvy society where that's not being valued via higher pay and good benefits and job stability. It's just totally backwards.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01] And to answer a point you raised, you mentioned you didn't know if this is a systemic problem with this one particular location. Our friend at WTHR here in Indianapolis, Bob Siegel, he did a story on this company, Landmark Recovery, pointing out that there have been numerous problems with some facilities they run here in Indiana.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01] Chronic understaffing, chaos in the facilities. So they need to get their acts straightened up because a lot of people depend on places like this.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02] Well, good for Bob for investigating that because that is a very important issue. And it's great that he has that sort of body of work than where we could actually say, yes, there is an issue here. People should be – I think at the very, very least, people should be safe in the facility they're in. You know, I mean, there's a lot of other issues that can happen, but personal safety is one of them. We like to automate things here at The Murder Sheet. We get all kinds of alerts about our episodes. We schedule emails in advance.

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[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02] Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. I don't know what happened with this Hensley person. Obviously, things, you know, I don't know if this is mental health, if this is anger, if this is personal animosity toward her roommate. Seems like the roommate may not have been named as of right now.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01] She's been identified.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02] She's been identified? Okay. Are we just not mentioning that because we...

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01] If I don't know what her situation is, I want to err on the side of not violating her privacy.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. But I think, you know, without knowing what's going on with Hensley, but yeah, it's bigger than just this one issue. So, anything else to talk about with this?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01] I think you had a case you wanted to update that was kind of in a similar milieu.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02] Well, it's just... And my source for this is the BBC. And I also want to thank the listeners who suggested we revisit this case that we've covered before. But now we're going to revisit it because there's been updates. This is the case, of course, of Lucy Letby. This is a British nurse who was convicted of murdering seven babies between June of 2015 and June of 2016 and trying, attempting to murder seven others. So, she's been convicted. She's received multiple life sentences. The jury convicted her, whatnot.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02] But the case continues to get a lot of attention. There's lots of debate. There's experts weighing in saying, well, this might have been a miscarriage of justice. Perhaps she wasn't really guilty. Maybe there are just systemic issues at the hospital. So, it deals with safety in a medical sort of institutional setting. One of the big updates that happened recently from what I could find, again, reading the BBC, is centers around a Canadian physician and researcher named Dr. Shu Lee.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02] So, Dr. Lee wrote a 1989 paper on air embolisms and how they can affect the coloring of a baby's skin. And that was cited in some capacity at the Letby trial. And he became upset about this because he felt that in years since, he's since come out and said, no, I changed my mind.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02] My beliefs in the 1989 paper about the discoloration of the skin were inaccurate. So, when he found out that his paper was cited in the trial, he was very upset, it sounds like. And said, you know, that shouldn't have happened. And what he's done is compiled a kind of a, what he calls like a panel of other clinicians who've come out in support of Letby and saying, no, this was, you know,

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02] basically all these different things that happened to these babies on her shift must be the fault of others or just general issues or people failing to kind of do their jobs properly at this hospital, which was, you know, kind of what Letby's argument was that it was systemic issues, not just her.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02] And what the judges who kind of reviewed this have said is that they found that the prosecution never really relied exclusively on this man's paper to point to an embolism. So, and that's also what the prosecution's main medical expert, Dr. Dewey Evans, said basically like, yeah. I mean, this is one of those cases where it continues to sort of royal opinions in the United Kingdom and beyond.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02] I know that that's, it's been talked about that that's been very upsetting for the baby's families who like lost these kids in pretty horrible circumstances. And the question is, what will happen with Letby? Because there have been these experts weighing in, you know, I think there have been kind of two, two fronts of this on the side of the medical experts. You've had medical experts weighing in and saying, we have concerns about this or in this case more like, oh, we think she was actually innocent.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02] Then you also have the statistical element where prosecution talked about like when they're looking at, OK, all these things are happening on Lucy Letby shift and then kind of just breaking down numerically. People have also had issues with that. But what happens with Letby? What are the next steps? Yes. So from what I could find out, and of course, this is in the United Kingdom, so their legal system is different from ours. There's some similarities.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02] Obviously, I think we it's fair to say that the United States basically got it inherited a lot of our legal structure from the United Kingdom.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02] Right. But that doesn't mean it's the same thing. She has already lost, I guess, I don't know if I'd call them appeals, but she's they've already gone to judges twice to try to get her convictions overturned unsuccessfully. So what she can do next is there is a criminal cases review commission. They are supposed to weigh in if they feel, oh, yes, there's been a miscarriage of justice. We need to do this again, essentially.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02] And then they don't really have the power to do anything other, though, than refer it to the court of appeals. But the thing that they need that Letby's legal team needs is compelling new evidence. Now, what they're saying is that the insights from this panel assembled by Dr. Lee, that's compelling new evidence. That's what they're saying. Whether that will carry the day, I guess we'll find out. But that's what's going on. That's why there's so much controversy.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02] You have these clinicians, these experts saying they don't believe it was the correct outcome. But I guess we'll find out.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01] It's a very interesting case.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02] Lots of back and forth. So now we're going to go back to the United States.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01] Speaking of back and forth, this is like we need a new travel agent. Because we're starting here in Kentucky, going all the way to England, then coming back to Nebraska. So what a travel itinerary. I picture the cheat sheet is like Anya's face on a map, like in Raiders of the Lost Ark. And the red line is taking her all over these different locations.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02] Is there like jaunty music playing in the background? Also, what a weird image. He's such an odd man sometimes.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01] Well, you're a lucky woman.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02] I am.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01] So this is a Nebraska case. And my sources for this were www.t.com, 3newsnow.com. And I also reviewed some old articles on newspapers.com. So this is a case that actually began well before Anya was born, maybe well before many of you were born.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01] This is a case that started back in 1979 when a 26-year-old woman named Deroshia Matthews and her 70-year-old son Kamal were found murdered in their home. And there were signs that may have been like a break in a possible robbery because the house had been kind of torn apart and, you know, ransacked for lack of a better word.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01] And the police obviously took the crime very, very seriously. Back in 2004, I believe, the police department got a grant to do some DNA testing. And that DNA testing led them to a man who, at the time of the murder, was known as Louis Walker. He is now known as Abdul Malik Hussein.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01] And he, at that time, was living in Colorado. This DNA testing led them to him. And he was arrested in 2004. And if you go back to the old articles from 2004, there are headlines and stories about, oh, we hope this brings closure to the families. And then it kind of, you don't see any more stories about it.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01] And apparently what happened is that at some point in 2005, the charges against him were dropped. Perhaps they were quietly dropped. Not entirely clear why.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01] But it seems that it is possible that there was some sort of possible issues with the production of certain pieces of evidence that they had. That's the phrasing I saw.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02] What does that mean? We don't know.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. Usually, if there's something about production of evidence, maybe I no longer have the evidence.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02] They lost the evidence, potentially.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. The exact quote is, The prosecutor at that time, it seems, thought there was an issue with regards to some of the evidence and the production of that evidence. And that is a quote from the current county attorney.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, okay.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01] So it was quietly dropped. And it is important to note that the charges were dropped without prejudice. Do you know what that means?

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02] That means that they can refile them at any time for whatever reason. It's no, you know, with prejudice would mean that they could not refile the charges.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. So when you see that written that a charge was dropped with prejudice, that means it's done. If it was dropped without prejudice, that means it can be refiled. And so the prosecution apparently on their own made the decision to drop them without prejudice. And I don't know all the details of what happened, but I just want to pause here to highlight that it is incredibly important that prosecutors do something, do things like this.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01] Because if you have a situation where you cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person you are charging is guilty of a crime, then you need to drop those charges. Because first of all, it is simply wrong to put someone through the ordeal and stress of being charged and tried unless you feel confident that not only are they guilty, but that you can prove it.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01] And secondly, even if you do believe that they are guilty, if you don't think you can produce the evidence that proves that in court and you bring them to court and they're acquitted, then you're done. And that means even if years later, more evidence comes up, you can't refile the case.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01] But because in this particular matter, they drop it without prejudice, they're able to refile. And as you probably have guessed, that's exactly what happened. They were able to retest some evidence apparently they do have for DNA. And it was linked to this same person who was arrested in 2004 and released in 2005. And so now he has been arrested again.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02] That is so horrifying. I completely agree with you. It's a responsible thing to do. But just how frustrating that must be for the Matthews family.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02] But it makes me really sad looking at Kamal's picture. I mean, he would be in his early 50s today. He really liked comic books apparently. That makes me want to cry.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, he's me.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I know. It's like, oh, God.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01] I'm in my early 50s and I still like comic books.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02] Well, it's just that he should have gotten to live his life. And, you know, if this person is indeed guilty of the crime, then he shouldn't have gotten that extra whatever 20 years to enjoy his freedom and post weird stuff on Facebook from the looks of it. It's a creepy Facebook. Now, that alone is not evidence, as we've learned from the Delphi murders case. You can't be arrested for just being a weirdo on Facebook.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02] But this is some weird stuff.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01] But kudos to the police and law enforcement in Douglas County. They did the right thing when they dropped the charges. And that didn't stop them from continuing to work the case and reevaluate evidence and look for new technologies and such. They kept at it. And that is all you can hope for from your law enforcement departments.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02] Agreed. And so going staying within the United States for now, we're going to go to Tennessee, actually the border of Kentucky and Tennessee. So I'm back to that area. And this is my main source for this was Clarksville. Now, thank you sincerely to the listener who recommended we look back at this one. This is another update. This is a case we've covered before.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02] So this is the murder of 23-year-old private first class Katia Duenas Aguilar. So Katia Duenas Aguilar is a young woman who's serving her country. She enlisted in the Army in 2018 and originally came from Muskie, Texas. She had a four-year-old son. And she belonged to the 101st Combat Aviation Brigade, the 101st Airborne Division.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02] She was based at Fort Campbell. Now, Fort Campbell is a little interesting because it straddles literally the border between Kentucky and Tennessee. So it's between Hopkinsville, Kentucky and Clarksville, Tennessee. Now, where Aguilar lived was a residence in Clarksville, Tennessee on Tiny Town Road.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02] May 18, 2024, police get there and realize quickly that a homicide has taken place because Katia was dead. And she had been stabbed 68 times in her head and upper body. So very gruesome, upsetting crime. So at the time, there was a lot of interest in, you know, tips and sort of rewards from different organizations being posted. Well, this listener let us know that there has been a pretty major update.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02] So Clarksville Police Department worked on this with the Army Criminal Investigation Division, specifically Army CID Special Agent Gerardo Cerateno and CPD Detective Isabella Huffinga. And they have compiled a case. A prosecutor presented it to the grand jury for Montgomery County. And that has resulted in two indictments.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02] One is 40-year-old Reynaldo Salinas Cruz, and that was Aguilar's husband. So he has been charged with tampering with evidence. And there's also been a murder charge. And that has been against, placed against 35-year-old Sophia Rodas. So she's been charged with both tampering with evidence and first-degree murder. Now, a little wrinkle in this Clarksville Now article that I thought was interesting. Both of them were actually in federal custody on unrelated charges. So they were already there.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02] And then they were extradited to the Montgomery County Jail. But that's where the update is right now. So, I mean, I don't know what we're looking at here. Could be a lot of different things. Obviously, the fact that the husband of the victim has been arrested and indicted on charges related to her murders. Very upsetting. I'm sure that's very upsetting for her family and whatnot. Not sure where Rodas comes into things.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, I guess that will probably be divulged later on and we'll follow it. But, yeah, that's what's going on in that case. So now we're going back to the United Kingdom. Okay?

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01] The music, the Johnny music is playing. Johnny music. Anya's face on the map is now going across the Atlantic with a little red line marking her route.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02] That makes me sound ridiculous. And why am I going alone? Why can't you come? Are you a part of this whole mess?

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00] I have to sit here and run the board.

[00:29:26] What? What?

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01] There's so much technical stuff going on here that you'd be lost. I'm just taking care of all of it.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02] You know, listeners.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01] As you're jaunting around enjoying yourself.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02] You know, listeners, you can't see this right now, but I have the mixer right next to me. So he's lying. These are untruths that are happening here. So we're going to use the BBC again. And this is a case, again, the listeners are amazing. And this is another wonderful listener who reached out and said, hey, this is interesting. And I agreed. So thank you, listener. And thank you, everyone who recommends things. We always try to get to as many as possible. And we really appreciate you. And thank you.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02] So this is a horrible case. This went down July 5th, 2024 in Darlington. Again, it's in the United Kingdom. A man named Simon Vickers was in the kitchen of his home with his 14-year-old daughter, Scarlett Vickers, and his partner, Scarlett's mother, Sarah Hall. So according to Hall and Vickers, you know, Simon and Scarlett are kind of goofing around.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02] They're throwing grapes at each other as she's making, as Sarah is making spaghetti. And she takes a knife out to cut some garlic bread. And there's a pair of tongs right next to that. So Vickers, this is Vickers' story. He says he grabbed the tongs that were right next to the knife and that he kind of swiped them towards Scarlett playfully.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02] And what he believes happened, or what he says he believes happened, is that the knife was caught against a hot plate and then Scarlett ran into it, sustaining a fatal injury from the knife to her chest. So no one disputes that Scarlett, this 14-year-old girl, was stabbed that night. But what the pathologist testified to at her trial was that there's absolutely no way that it happened like that.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02] That somebody would have been having to hold the knife in order for that to happen. That this story about tongs knocking the knife into a position where it was pressed against a hot plate and that she somehow ran into it doesn't make any sense based on the medical findings. And I can tell you personally, just that story sounds kind of ridiculous to me. What do you think?

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I agree.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02] That just sounds stupid. I'm sorry. I think a story where you have maybe the dad goofing around or holding the knife and as he's goofing around throwing grapes and she trips and falls, I think that still sounds kind of suspicious. But it certainly would have fit the medical findings more. But this kind of like, oh, it was just pressed against a hot plate. I don't know. Well, you ultimately have to go with what the evidence says.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02] People lie, but, you know, experts are usually able to at least give some insights on what the, you know, stab wounds look like and what could have inflicted it and what could not have inflicted it. So unsurprisingly, the jurors found him guilty, although we're going to talk about that in a minute and how weird it is. Not weird. It's just a different it's a way of doing things differently. As I mentioned, the UK system is different from ours and they are interested.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02] Their juror system is different in some very interesting ways. And I also know police found him when they arrest, you know, when they came to the house that day that he was slurring his speech. He drank wine and smoked a bunch of marijuana. So, you know, the thing about this is Vickers and Hall continue to insist he's innocent. And this was all just a tragic accident that they were just play fighting. And, you know, and so they're they're saying that. But again, he was convicted and this is how he was convicted.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02] Ten of the jurors found him guilty. Two didn't. But can you tell can you tell us all why that might sound weird to an American audience?

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01] In to an American audience, that would be a hung jury.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02] Except in Louisiana.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01] Ah, it sounds like one of us did a bit more research than the other one did.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02] Well, no, I think it may be other states, too, but I'm pretty sure Louisiana has a non majority jury rule. Most states in the United States.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01] It would be a majority rule.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02] I'm sorry. You have to have a unanimous rule. But in most states, you need a unanimous jury. You cannot. You either have to have unanimous acquittal or unanimous conviction or you get a hung jury and there is a mistrial. Right. So now in the United Kingdom and I'm no expert in in American laws, let alone laws in the United Kingdom. So forgive me.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02] But my understanding from doing a little bit of reading is that you you're aiming for unanimous. You're aiming for unanimous. Also, juries can come in different sizes. In the United States, it's usually 12 for like your standard jury. But there can be different sizes and the sizes. Then that determines how many people you need for a majority to be OK. So in this case, since there were 12, 10 to 2 is fine.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02] They could go with a conviction. They're aiming for unanimous. But if they deadlock, then that can open the door for OK. We got 10 to do. That's fine. So it's so it's interesting.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01] Could it be seven to five or I don't think so.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02] I think there's I think there's like a threshold that gets set like a two third situation. I don't know, but I think it's like more of like there's a threshold set based on how large the jury is and you can go from there. I mean, I imagine that. I mean, I don't I don't know. It's just it really I mean, unanimous sounds so intimidating. Sometimes you're like, wow, you're going to get everyone to agree.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01] Well, the reason for that, obviously, is it's a pretty serious thing when the government takes away someone's liberty or perhaps their life. So you don't want to make it easy. It's not easy to get 12 people to agree to anything. Try to the next time you have a Thanksgiving or Christmas meal, try to get everybody around your family table to agree on something. It's not easy.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02] Are you trying to start people? Why are you trying to ruin people's holidays?

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01] So if you can get 12 people to agree that a particular defendant is guilty, then that's yeah, it should be hard.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02] I want to say I goofed and I apologize to everyone. Louisiana used to not allow non unanimous jury verdicts. But it seems like that's been overturned in the case of serious crimes because of the Supreme Court. So they they they're doing it differently now, too. So, yeah. But in the in the UK, I mean, again, they also use 12 people usually.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, I think when it's 12, 10 to 2 is OK. But there can be other. You know, there can be other sizes, it sounds like. But it's interesting. It's always interesting to also obviously if 10 to 2 is OK, 11 to 1 is also fine. Right. I think. I mean, I get what you're saying, but I remember that Florida case we covered where there's that one juror who's being totally ridiculous about everything.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02] So I kind of feel like, you know, I can I can kind of understand wanting to have a little bit of a pressure valve off of that.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01] But it should be hard.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02] I it's that's still pretty hard. 11 to 1. Now, I think we're going to a case back in the state.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01] Anya is jetty back over the.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02] Why am I alone? Why can't you come with me?

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01] Her itinerary was quite poorly planned. She's actually ending up pretty close to where we began. We began in Louisville and we're going to finish up in Cincinnati.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02] I think it's sad that you're making me go all around the world all by myself. And you're just sitting back and relaxing here in Indiana. That's sad. That's a sad image for our listeners to hear about.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01] My source for this is Cincinnati dot com. And I'll admit the headline, as they often do, kind of grabbed me. But it it was something about the victim and the killer being shot by the same bullet. And I thought, oh, this sounds like something. I have an old John Dixon car novel or something, some intricate mystery. But it's more a case where two people got into a fight.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01] The people who who fought the victim was James Maurice Hicks. And the person who who was the shooter was Jonathan Kirkland. They got into a fight and a gunshot was fired. And it seems that it went through Kirkland's hand before striking and fatally wounding Mr. Hicks.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01] And Mr. Hicks then apparently fled. He went to a relative's house and kind of paced around with a very, very bloody hand. And he then finally goes and gets treatment and speaks with the police. So his story was that it was a basically a mysterious intruder.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01] I guess I said this was the theory that the attorneys put forth, that a mysterious intruder showed up and in the middle of a terrible home invasion shot one man in the hand and fatally shot the other. But that raises some obvious questions. One of which, if that was the case, why didn't Mr. Kirkland call the police?

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I bet he was scared, right?

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01] Well, he didn't trust police.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, OK.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01] So then he goes to his relative's house. Why doesn't he tell them that there was a robbery? Why doesn't he call for any kind of medical attention?

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02] Doesn't trust his relatives either. They might be in on it, too.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01] And then even when he was at the hospital getting treated and he spoke with police there, he did not mention anything about a mysterious home invasion.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02] It's almost like someone just made that up later. It's so weird.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01] Well, the defense attorneys theorized that perhaps this was because he was just not thinking straight because of the stress of having to put up with this mysterious home invasion. So it's not a John Dixon Carr intricately plotted mystery. It's just random life with people trying to get away with things. He did not get away with anything. He was convicted.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02] I'm shocked. Well, you know. Oh, and I'm looking at the subhead of that article. Defense calls prosecutions case speculation. That is interesting. I don't know. I think one problem in true crime is that and I'm guilty of this, too, sometimes. I'm not really throwing stones here. I admit this. I do this. You do this. Everyone does this. We all want things to be more interesting than they are.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02] And oftentimes things are just not very interesting. If I can explain things by like some people are just bad and do bad things. I mean, it's like that's just not everything is an elaborate. We all want to have the kind of elaborate kind of well thought out crime or conspiracy where everything's coming together. And the reality is that very few crimes are anything like that. And even crimes where people are trying to do that often blow up in people's faces.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01] We had something we used to say on this show a lot. I don't think we've said it recently.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02] But why did we retire it? I'm scared.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01] It's that the dullest possible explanation that fits all of the criteria for what happened is the one that's most likely to be true.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it's boring.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01] And the dullest, most boring explanation here is that two young men got into a fight and one of them shot the other.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02] And managed to shoot himself in the process by accident.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yep. Yeah. It's it's it's. And, you know, like that's a situation where if there was a fight, maybe he would have been better actually explaining that to police in the beginning because maybe there was maybe there was claims about a self-defense thing going on.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01] But, you know, I certainly have a bias. I always prefer a story to be as wild and out there as possible. I mean, the whole reason I clicked on this was I thought, oh, this sounds like something I have an old mystery novel from the 1930s. But we just have to fight against those inclinations we might have when we're trying to decide what is true and what is not.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, because none of all of us are susceptible to that. And I would say it's not like it's not like you graduate from critical thinking university and get a degree and you don't have to worry about it. It's more like we are all stuck in a raging river that if we let go, we will be carried to the land of illogic and nonsense.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02] And so you have to hold on and sometimes you slip and then you have to grab onto something else like, you know, and that's I mean, that's that's what scares me because I'm barely hanging on here as it is.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01] So I just, you know, I'm badly shaken because you're telling me that my diploma from critical thinking university is apparently worthless.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02] Apparently that was a scam. Paid a lot of money for that. That's aww.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01] Wakes my heart.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02] Kevin, that was a Ponzi scheme.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01] You were staring right at that on the wall as you made your little speech.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02] Shaking my head ruefully. But, you know, it's I have to fight against that. I mean, we criticize a lot of people, I think, for being illogical in the true crime space. And I don't you know that I stand by all of that because it's I mean, it's it's embarrassing sometimes how bad it is out there. But, you know, we're all susceptible. I'm susceptible. You know, so are you probably a little less. So I think I'm a little bit more of a hothead in many ways.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02] But as my jaunts across the across the pond on multiple occasions prove.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01] You spent a lot more on that than I spent on my critical thinking university diploma.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02] I think the critical thinking university may have destroyed us financially. You're going to be in student debt for years for that.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01] But you in one week flew across the Atlantic like three times.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe. I don't know why I'm so offended about a fake trip that I didn't take. But like me going out there alone. There's something really sad about that. God. Anyways, I think you just wanted to get me out of the country so you could spend a bunch of money on your diploma. Get it framed. OK, are we done? Yes.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01] Well, we have our concluding remarks.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02] OK, why don't you tell us about the book? Because I feel like I'm always talking about it. So why don't you take that on? Take on that role for this for this episode?

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01] We are in the process of writing a book on the Delphi case. I think there's going to be some interesting information in there that has not been released before. And also, hopefully, it will all be organized in an interesting way.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, yeah, all those things that you think you'd expect from a book. But it's it's what's it called?

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01] Shadow of the Bridge.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. It's called Shadow of the Bridge and we'll include links in our show notes. I just want to say pre-sales, pre-orders really help us. And so if you could do that and maybe tell your friends to do it, too, then we will be eternally grateful. And we thank you. And we're going to do something fun for all the pre-sale people. So stay tuned. Just got to basically finish the actual putting the book together part. And then we can get on the fun stuff like that.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01] The Rough Draft is done. It's in the editing process now. And hopefully that will just take a few more weeks.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. Unless people have some concerns. But I think it'll be good. I think it'll be good. We feel pretty good about it right now. And we're excited. And we're excited to share it with you all at some point over the summer.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02] So the other thing we're trying to sell in this portion of the episode are the T-shirts that we have in our house. And these are beautiful shirts. Am I doing the ad or are you doing the ad?

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_01] Go ahead. You've started. No, no, no, no, no. You segued into it brilliantly. Go ahead.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. I feel like I did it last week. So maybe you double up next time.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01] But I do two ads in one episode.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02] No one wants to hear that. Listenership will just crater at that point. Yeah. So there's shirts and they're black and they have beautiful colors on them of the murder sheet logo. And they read the murder sheet people, which is a little bit of an inside joke for some of you who know the lore. And we feel that they're quite sturdy, quite beautiful, quite fashionable, I think. When you were in Europe?

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02] All the people who've wore them so far have been tastemakers, leaders in their industries, fashionable people who are ahead of the curve. So I think you want to get on that. Join them.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_01] When you were in Europe, did you see the European people wearing them?

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I just... Play along. Yes. Yes. I saw them on my Anya plane that was flying through the sky across the sea with... Yes, I saw many of the leading fashion houses in Europe are apparently studying these shirts just to learn, you know, how they can achieve that classic look and bring it to, I'm sure, you know, the coutures, runways, the fashion houses.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just saying words at this point that I learned from Project Runway.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, the colors in it are lovely. I think they would complement anyone's Easter bonnet.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02] An Easter bonnet?

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01] So if you're wearing an Easter bonnet...

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02] For the Easter parade?

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01] For the Easter parade, for your little promenade, what better thing to wear with it than a murder sheet people t-shirt? So if you're...

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01] And the fellas shouldn't be left out. Even though you don't have the bonnets, you can still wear the t-shirt.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. So there's no... And also, if you don't celebrate Easter and you don't want to go to an Easter parade, you can still wear them. They're very inclusive shirts.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_01] That's... We allow that.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02] We... Yes, of course we allow that. Jesus, Kevin. Anyone can wear it. This man's always obsessed with that Easter bonnet song with Bing Crosby. That's what he's... That's what he's referencing here, just to clarify for everyone. I've never seen an Easter parade. You always hear it referenced in old-timey movies. People are always talking about it. I've never seen it. But apparently there's a Bing Crosby song and Kevin is frequently...

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_01] Irving Berlin wrote it.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Yeah. But Bing Crosby sings the version people know. That's what I'm... Yeah. But anyways, but he's... He always wants me to get an Easter bonnet. I don't know why.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01] We could have, assuming CrimeCon works out, couldn't we have like a murder sheet parade, a promenade through the sea...

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02] Through the what? Through the... Through the sea? What are we, Moses? What is going on?

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01] Through the streets of that great city. I don't remember what city it's going to be at.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_02] It's Denver.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01] Denver's a great city.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_02] Do you...

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01] You know, there's a really big comic book store in Denver. I wonder if people at a comic book store would enjoy wearing a t-shirt.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, now we're getting really niche in this advertising. Specifically employees of this one comic book shop that Kevin knows. I would say, yeah, we did apply for CrimeCon. So, I don't know. We haven't been accepted yet. If there's a... If anyone's going and you want to throw in our name as people who are good and should be allowed in, feel free to do so. Just throwing that out for everyone. But, I mean, hopefully we'll get in. But we'll see. It would be fun to meet a lot of you guys. So, I hope we do.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01] It would be fun to meet all of you. You'd be very selective.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you know, some...

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01] Were there those two people who said they wanted to make me eat rhubarb?

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_02] Those people are going to be the grand marshals of the murder sheet parade of Denver because they're my heroes and you deserve to eat the rhubarb, Kevin. You deserve to eat the rhubarb after you've said all these malicious things about me stealing cereal. That is your comeuppance. So, I will try to make that happen at some point. But, we'll see. It's not going to happen. The rhubarb. Rhubarb and strawberry pies are actually really good. You're missing out.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01] Couldn't you just, like, wear the shirts or hang the shirts from your Easter bonnet if it's a big elaborate bonnet?

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe we should just wrap this up.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_01] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_02] I think I have, yeah.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_01] And deservedly so.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02] Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_01] I do wash my clothes.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01] You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02] But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_02] There you go. So you can go to quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's quince.com slash msheet. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash m-s-h-e-e-t.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_01] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01] We love our sponsors.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

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[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02] improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02] Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02] And they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01] Anya, if I want to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. If you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_00] Spell the code.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_02] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out. And then we'll use the code MSHEET.

[00:57:02] And then we'll use the code MSHEET. So if I want to use it, let me give you a benefit for this show. Thank you.