The Delphi Murders: A New Motion to Transfer

[00:00:00] Content Warning, This Episode Contains Discussion of the Murder of Two Girls So of course in terms of the Richard Allen case there has understandably been quite a bit of talk lately about next week. Next week of course we're going to have a hearing before the Indiana Supreme Court

[00:00:26] to decide whether or not Richard Allen's previous attorneys will be returning to the case, whether the judge in the case will be staying with the case or being removed. And also I suppose implicitly will be discussing the fate of Richard Allen's current attorneys. Robert Scrimman and William Lobrado.

[00:00:47] Exactly. And meanwhile people have been having a lot of questions about the current attorneys. Are they actually doing anything on the case? Are they just sitting back and waiting for the Indiana Supreme Court to take action and clarify matters?

[00:01:07] Do they have any opinions about any of the arguments offered by the previous defense team? Well today we have gotten some answers on some of those questions or at least some beginnings of answers as they have filed a motion in the case.

[00:01:27] And we are going to discuss that and what it may or may not mean. My name is Ania Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:01:41] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders, a new motion to transfer. So this was filed today which is January 12th, 2024. And it's Friday. Naturally everything in this case gets filed.

[00:02:50] It gets announced on a Friday in the afternoon. And this is from Alan's new defense team for now, Robert Scrimman and William Labrado. Whether they will even be staying on is unclear but they have made this filing.

[00:03:08] So this is not Rosie and Baldwin. This is the new team. And it revisits a lot of familiar themes I think for people who've been following this case. We have odinism. We have complaints about Westville. We have complaints about driving time for the attorneys to get to Alan.

[00:03:26] We have complaints about guards kind of hitting some of the familiar notes here. There certainly is a bit of deja vu about it, but overall the tone is somewhat different. A lot of the old defenses, legal filings, those are very, very much written for the public.

[00:03:46] They're very much almost like pulpy at times. Like trying to make it as interesting as possible. It's not really what you expect from illegal filing. Whereas this is very much what you would expect from illegal filing.

[00:04:02] And I think this is actually a stronger document as a result of that because one thing I noticed when you had the old defense team leaning on some of these issues, they allowed by kind of losing control and losing focus, I felt,

[00:04:21] by making it out that Richard Allen is the worst treated man in all of Westville. They kind of lost the plot because then when it came out that that was obviously not true, then they sort of fumbled it.

[00:04:33] This is just making the point, what I see the thesis of scrimmands, essentially filing here, is that he shouldn't be in prison because he's a pretrial detainee and therefore he's doing a comparison with other pretrial detainees at jails.

[00:04:53] And that's smart because that's a very good point in my view. I like to actually read a little bit of what Mr. Scrimman has to say. After visiting with Mr. Allen at both the Westville Correctional Facility and the Wabash Valley Correctional Facility,

[00:05:13] it is council's belief that one, Mr. Allen is not being treated similar to other pretrial detainees being held in county jails. And two, pretrial incarceration in Wabash Valley Correctional Facility will seriously,

[00:05:27] if not fatally impact council's ability to effectively represent Mr. Allen due to the distance of travel and visitation conditions. Those are two very good points. They were good points when they were made previously.

[00:05:48] I just feel like this is not getting so lost in the weeds, the way it's presented. And it seems to be using arguments strategically saying, okay, what his experience is very, very different from that of a detainee in jail. Very different.

[00:06:03] And regardless of what the reasons for that is, it's detrimental. Even if we were to say it's not detrimental, the fact that we have to drive all the way to Wabash Valley Correctional is going to make it very hard for us to do our jobs.

[00:06:18] So I feel like that's compelling the way it's constructed is compelling. I feel like the other two got it got lost in this like, oh, he's wearing a shirt, like let's give photos to the media.

[00:06:29] It became about like something else and it was like you can't lose control like that. But this, it's maintaining more of that focus on the goal which is to transfer him somewhere that's convenient and makes it easier for them to meet with him.

[00:06:49] Yeah, and it's easy when you talk about the defense attorneys, whether it's Brad Rosie or Mr. Scrimman, complaining about how difficult their job is. It's easy to make fun of them for that, but it's a valid point in order to defend a client,

[00:07:08] especially a client charged with something as serious as double murder. It's important to really meet with that client and spend a lot of time with that client and work with that client.

[00:07:22] And if your client is being held a considerable distance away from you, while you also have a busy schedule with other clients, it really makes it difficult for the accused man to get the quality of legal representation to which he is entitled. Exactly.

[00:07:42] And again, we talked about this Westfields very far away. But for these guys, Wabash Valley is even worse, way worse. And so the fact that he was transferred there is concerning. I wanted to read another thing that Mr. Scrimman wrote.

[00:08:06] He's going back and recapping how Richard Allen ended up in the custody of the Indian Department of Correction, as opposed to being held in a county jail. And he mentions that the state filed a motion with Judge Deener, who was then in charge of the case.

[00:08:26] Judge Deener without holding an evidentiary hearing on the merits, granted the state's motion and approved Richard Allen's transfer to the Department of Corrections. Then recused himself from the case that same day. Those last words about Deener, Judge Deener recusing himself on that same day are italicized,

[00:08:45] which I think Scrimman is doing deliberately to try to highlight, for lack of a better word, the bizarreness of this situation. This is not how things normally work.

[00:09:01] For the purposes of this discussion right now, don't put aside your opinions about whether or not Mr. Allen is innocent or guilty. This is just not how the process typically works. And frankly, regardless of how you feel about guilt or innocence, the process should work as it works.

[00:09:22] It shouldn't be like a two-tiered system. You don't want a high-profile case that'd be doing things differently, in my opinion, because you want it to be engendering faith within the system and faith that everything is moving properly.

[00:09:37] And unfortunately with this kind of initial thing, I felt like that opened the door for a lot of understandable concern early on that never seems to have been rectified. I'm in a situation where I actually really very much understand why Carroll County didn't want him,

[00:09:52] because they basically felt that somebody was going to come in and shiv him, and that they were not going to be able to stop it because they are understaffed. I mean, this is a Carroll County...this is the Sheriff's Department.

[00:10:02] They have the sheriff going out and overseeing prisoner crews that are cleaning the road. This is an understaffed place. But I would hope that by now there would have been some sort of everybody identifying a location

[00:10:19] that would be suitable from all parties, because it sounds like Carroll County doesn't want him. The prosecutor's office doesn't really care. The DOC was a port of last resort for them, which made sense, and I understand. I don't think that's some conspiracy.

[00:10:36] But maybe there's some sort of larger jail that's nearby that could have some of the mental health resources that Westfield did and that Wabash Valley presumably does, and could keep him on Suicide Watch, but not necessarily make it easier for him to be visited by his attorneys.

[00:10:55] I feel like that's the kind of Goldilocks zone that you really want for everybody, and it doesn't really sound like that's happened. I don't know whether that's because that doesn't exist or because...I don't know, wrangling.

[00:11:09] Scriven continues with his recap, and he discusses the motion to transfer that the original team made back in April of last year. This is what you're talking about with the shirt being held like a prisoner of war. What have you? Dog kennel.

[00:11:29] And you may remember Judge Gull was ultimately very critical of that motion, suggesting that there were things in it that weren't true. And she...that even came up, I believe, in the Chamber's discussion she had with attorneys Rosie and Baldwin.

[00:11:51] But I find it very interesting here that Mr. Scriven indicates that based on his observations and such, he lacks personal knowledge to back up everything said in there, but based on what he does know, he believes it to be a meritous motion,

[00:12:11] and he's incorporating all of the arguments and such from it. Specifically, his pretrial incarceration at a distance state prison severely impacts counsel's ability to effectively communicate with Mr. Allen and effectively represent him.

[00:12:27] I think his lack of personal knowledge to vouch for all the allegations made is doing some pretty heavy lifting there. I think the fact that you have to state that you don't co-sign everything that Rosie put in that document is a bit interesting.

[00:12:46] I hear Richard saying, I stand by what I say. He also goes on to talk about odinism. And of course in the Frank's motion there was talk about guards with odinism patches.

[00:13:00] And there was also, of course, in the Frank's memorandum talk about how the crime scene photos showed a possible connection to odinism. Mr. Scriven writes, after reviewing crime scene photos and visiting Mr. Allen and Westville Correctional Facility,

[00:13:20] President Counsel believes these claims have merit and that pretrial incarceration within the state prison system negatively impacts Mr. Allen's rights in addition to counsel's ability to effectively represent him. So they're not taking odinism off the table. This doesn't mean that they are going to necessarily use that defense.

[00:13:43] But he's saying, I've looked at the crime scene pictures. I think it's possible there's a connection and the stuff with the guards, I also believe is real.

[00:13:55] If they go with odinism, I think it's possible that they may go with a pared down version that could be stronger and speak to a jury more effectively. He then goes on to discuss the distance and this is something we were talking about earlier.

[00:14:10] And they say that for them to visit, for counsel to visit Mr. Allen at Wabash Valley Correctional is a 10 hour day because Fort Wayne is about 233 miles from Wabash Correctional Facility, which is a three and a half hour drive without stops. So that's seven hours of driving.

[00:14:34] Obviously you have to have meals and stuff in there so that's more than a full day. That's insane. That's insane. That's not, I mean, that is that alone. And the fact that they basically moved him away further from them is just, that's mind boggling.

[00:14:52] They have to fix that because they can't, these men are public defenders. They don't, I mean, I don't think it was fair when it was happening to Rosie and Baldwin that they had a drive so far.

[00:15:05] A lot of people thought it was somewhat amusing when Rosie got slapped down because it's like this is more of a you problem. And I understand that. But I think ultimately, as Kevin said, it's important for them to really have time with their client.

[00:15:21] And it really just seems like this is an unnecessary obstacle in their way. And I don't, and it just seems to be not only not being corrected but just getting worse with the Wabash Valley transfer. That's not, I just don't think that's okay.

[00:15:37] I think they think that needs to be remedied. That alone should be enough that there's some sort of change. There's some sort of compromise.

[00:15:49] There's got to be a facility out there that is able to deal with him and is a provides a more convenient meeting place on the grounds of being closer, but also like letting them in easier. You know, all that.

[00:16:09] I'm now going to read more of an extended quote from this motion that does have some pretty colorful and interesting details. On November 19 2023, Council visited with Mr. Allen at Westfield Correctional Facility.

[00:16:31] The visit was an arduous process, which included lengthy travel, complicated and protracted prison security procedures and difficult visitation conditions. Throughout our legal consultation, Mr. Allen remained uncomfortably and unnecessarily shackled and chained in a manner resembling handable lector while guards watched through glass panels and the door ajar.

[00:16:55] Mr. Allen clearly appeared intimidated by the guards and was hesitant to speak freely with Council.

[00:17:02] Although none of the prison guards were wearing patches in support of Odinism, one of the guards did have a symbolic face tattoo of Odin spear and multiple hand and finger tattoos emblematic of Odinism and or Norse mythology.

[00:17:18] The same prison guard had a public Facebook account that also displayed the same tattoos in addition to a necklace with Thor's hammer inscribed with the letters BRSRCR, an acronym for berserker, which is a very specific type of Norse battle axe and the name given to warriors fighting in honor of Odin.

[00:17:41] Other photos displayed three interlocking triangles, another symbol associated with Odinism.

[00:17:47] Mr. Allen stated that Westfield guards were intimidating and reluctant to provide him with shower and recreational access because it caused them extra work and as a result, he's often simply remained in his cell and went without recreational time or a shower to keep the peace.

[00:18:04] More Odinism, this time with more face tattoos. It's a bizarre detail. The description of the circumstances upon which they are consulting with their client, the references to Hannibal Lecter being shackled, having a door, a jar being intimidated by these guards. None of this sounds good.

[00:18:28] Well, it really goes against the precepts of what should happen in attorney-client meetings. I agree with some of that. Hannibal is spelled wrong, by the way. I think that was a typo. But yeah, Hannibal. Here's the thing.

[00:18:45] I think what I'm separating here is people are allowed to be heathens. We've had on the folks from the truth saying that three triangles has to be a symbol of Odinism, which is a specific criminal element to heathenry.

[00:19:04] I think is playing into some pretty show a connection between Odinism specifically and not just heathenry. And I think you have something here. There's a lot of it within this since the Frank's memorandum of just basically attacking people for having religious beliefs and having religious symbology.

[00:19:27] I'm not arguing about the patches. I think it's inappropriate to display that in a work environment. I'm more of speaking in this situation. If somebody's on Facebook and they're heathen, they're posting heathen stuff.

[00:19:38] Would we be getting mad if they were a Christian posting Christian stuff? But there was some Christian elements to the crime scene. So I'm troubled by the fact that they're continuing to hammer that without providing specific evidence of something more illicit, i.e. Odinism as opposed to heathenry.

[00:19:56] That being said, the element of guards watching, guards having the door jar. To me, that does not seem like a conducive environment to conversations with a client.

[00:20:09] And that is where it sounds like Scrimmon is making a very good point regarding jails have a process for this. Jails are used to this because that's typically where a lawyer is going to be meeting their client.

[00:20:22] So a jail would be better. It's possible that it's not the guards trying to spy on them. They're just trying to make sure the guy doesn't kill himself or hurt anybody else.

[00:20:32] That being said, if they're not equipped to handle these situations without giving them the privacy they're need, then he's in the wrong place. It's very, very troubling to me and it's very, very concerning. I'm really concerned that this is a violation of Richard Allen's constitutional rights to counsel.

[00:20:53] And the sort of thing could have a real adverse impact down the road. Talk through the possible consequences of that.

[00:21:03] A right to counsel is not a pro forma right. It has to be something real. You don't just go through the motions and give a person the bare minimum and say this counts.

[00:21:15] You really need to have a right to counsel that means something. And if guards or whoever are violating the privacy of attorney client privilege, if you're in a situation where there's guards right outside the door, the door is a jar,

[00:21:33] and your client is saying I'm intimidated by the guards for whatever reason. And it's not talking.

[00:21:38] And this is keeping him from talking. If you can only have a few meetings with your client because it's a 10 hour drive, these things at some point it gets to the stage where he's not getting effective counsel.

[00:21:56] He's not getting the counsel he is entitled to because of decisions being made by the state. And that could potentially be a situation where heaven forbid you have a trial. He gets convicted and then it's overturned because some of his basic rights were abridged.

[00:22:14] Here's a question and you may not know this. Are we essentially guaranteed a reversal at this point or if they fix this? Is it still fixable? I believe it can and should be fixed. Oh, it absolutely should be. I'm just more curious is it too late?

[00:22:35] I don't think it's too late. I think they have to. Doesn't Allen County have a pretty good jail? I thought I may be making that up.

[00:22:44] But I thought when researching the county, I thought that was a large jail with a lot of resources because Fort Wayne is a large city. That would be, I mean, at least a temporary fix while they're still on it.

[00:22:56] Again, Scrimmins point that jails have the ability to accommodate this better than prisons is a very relevant one because when you are in prison, most of the time you've already been convicted. You know, there's going to be a pellet relief.

[00:23:14] So it's not like you're not going to have attorneys anymore, but that's a different beast than this trial prep. And therefore a jail is just going to have those visitation spaces. They're going to have the protocols to let the lawyers in easily.

[00:23:31] If they have him in Allen County jail, then I imagine Scrimmins and Labrado are very familiar with the staff there, the protocols.

[00:23:39] It's going to be a breeze to visit him. It's going to be much more conducive to building that rapport with him, having that face-to-face time and building together a good defense.

[00:23:54] And okay, I mean, I'm not saying move him to Allen County tomorrow because I think that the other defense attorneys may very well come back and maybe if that's the case, a high quality jail.

[00:24:07] The Cass County people didn't sound like they wanted him and they also indicated they don't have the mental health resources to deal with them. But maybe another big jail in the area does, and maybe that's a better fit.

[00:24:19] I think it would be ideal if Richard Allen was taken to a jail that was within, say, an hour's drive of attorneys. Yes. Yes. Well, location matters obviously.

[00:24:32] So you have to figuring out, I don't know why they can't, I mean, why not just basically make a list of the facilities, whether they're jails.

[00:24:42] I know a lot of mental hospitals were shut down, but maybe if there's any left, maybe something like that that's within an hour and has the resources to deal with someone who may be suicidal and may be violent.

[00:24:58] I think, and you make a list of those, and then you figure it out.

[00:25:04] Because all of this controversy about the prisons, again, it's not, if it could be compellingly put together that he's being deprived of his right to counsel, then it's just going to cause more problems down the road for everybody. Just figure it out.

[00:25:22] I mean, it doesn't, again, like I'm in the camp of, I don't think there was some conspiracy to put him in prison. I think it was just what they felt was the best thing to do at the time.

[00:25:31] But at this point, there's been so many issues that have arisen because of it. Why continue to do it this way when it just seems like it's going to become an issue down the road?

[00:25:43] So I want to get back to this document because I read earlier a description of what a visit was like when they visited him at Westville. Now, of course, he's no longer in Westville. He's in Wabash. So things are different now. Maybe they're different for the better.

[00:26:02] No, it's further away. Let's see what Mr. Scrimman has to say. On December 22, 2023, Council visited Mr. Allen at Wabash Valley Correctional Facility where Mr. Allen had recently been moved without consulting counsel. The round trip drive and visit took over 10 hours to complete.

[00:26:23] Access to the prison once again took nearly an hour and several gates had to be manually cranked open as there was a power outage in a portion of the prison and doors could not be opened.

[00:26:35] Prison staff indicated they did not have any type of visitation rooms for counsel to use because they were not equipped for such matters, but had fashioned a visitation room in some sort of prep kitchen within the prison housing unit.

[00:26:50] Council was informed the visitation would be monitored by video cameras. Council was taken to Mr. Allen who was locked in a prison cell located within the kitchen. The cell appeared to be designed as a place to feed a prisoner.

[00:27:05] The cell had a solid iron door with a small hinged iron flap approximately eight inches high that opened just far enough to slide a food tray through.

[00:27:16] This iron flap was left open and it was through this small opening that we were allowed to see Mr. Allen and speak with him. A folding table was set up approximately six feet from the cell door with three chairs on the far side of the table.

[00:27:31] We were instructed to sit in the chairs and not to approach Mr. Allen or come within six feet of the cell door. This arrangement made it impossible to show Mr. Allen any videos or documents or discuss the case with him without raising our voices and almost shouting.

[00:27:49] In 25 years of practicing law in five states, including representing numerous defendants charged with murder, I have never had to conduct an incustidied legal consultation in this fashion. The prison's visitation arrangement created an environment wherein effectively representing Mr. Allen was a fiction. That description sounds incredible.

[00:28:16] I cannot imagine trying to have a confidential consultation with someone in a cell, in a kitchen where you have to be six feet away and you can only see them through some sort of iron flap. We've heard that compared to Westville, Wabash Valley is considered a better prison.

[00:28:35] That being said, as we can see here, it does not seem equipped to deal with people who are not yet convicted because there's no convenience set up for a lawyer to talk confidentially with his client.

[00:28:50] So, and it sounds like again he's stressing all the times the staff said to him, well, we don't normally do this. We're not really equipped for this.

[00:28:59] So, if they're not equipped for it, the thing to do is that he shouldn't be in prison anymore. Because I mean, it just as you said, it seems like it's opening them up to have things delve into dismissal on the grounds of not having proper representation later on.

[00:29:25] I think it's crucial when we talk about differences in how pretrial detainees are treated, especially how other pretrial detainees are treated. One thing that pretrial detainees are typically allowed is relatively easy access to their attorneys and Mr. Allen is not getting that.

[00:29:47] Yeah, and if that's because the prisons can't handle that they can't they can't make enough accommodations based on their own policies. Fine, but then he shouldn't be in prison.

[00:29:56] Like it's as simple as that. And you know, it's just going to continue to be a P it be an issue and you want somebody even if you think he's guilty, you want a guilty person to be strenuously represented because that's how I would say frankly,

[00:30:16] that especially if you think this man is guilty, if you're convinced he's guilty, you want to see him convicted and receive whatever justice the system meets out to him.

[00:30:29] Then you would want him to be in a jail where he can easily access his attorneys because if you believe him guilty, you don't want to make it easier for him to appeal.

[00:30:43] You don't want to make the families go through all of this again. That's true. And if you're convinced he is guilty, then you should be convinced that prosecutor Nick McLean can win this case playing strictly by the book and by the rules and nothing needs to happen to stack the deck.

[00:31:02] You don't need to make it harder for his defense clients. You don't need to make it harder for his defense attorneys to represent him. No. What do you think needs to happen for him to be moved to a more suitable location?

[00:31:18] Well, we'll see how the judge responds to this motion. We'll see how the state responds to this motion in the past. Of course, prosecutor McLean has indicated pretty clearly he doesn't have a strong preference about where Alan should be held.

[00:31:35] When he's fired back at the previous defense team, it seemed like it was more in the idea that he's being specifically harassed and treated specifically badly at Westville compared to other Westville inmates.

[00:31:47] And they had evidence and witnesses to prove that essentially. But when it comes to actually where should he be, it made it pretty clear that they don't care and do whatever.

[00:32:01] So I would hope that with that, that there would be some new place that could be designated and selected. Because this just as you said, this can't keep going on. This just is setting it up for more complications down the road.

[00:32:20] Nobody wants that he deserves to have. He deserves to be able to have in depth confidential conversations with his attorneys who are going to represent him in a murder trial that's going to possibly see him locked up for life if he's convicted.

[00:32:36] The stakes could not be higher. They have to they have to give him every advantage when it comes to this, when it comes to meeting with those attorneys.

[00:32:46] And I would like to think surely that there is some sort of place that could meet all the requirements for everybody, make everybody at least mostly happy and allows him to have a place where he can talk with the lawyers, whoever they may end up being.

[00:33:05] I tend to think at this point that the old defense team is coming back and that Scrimmon and Labrado won't be on it after that.

[00:33:17] But the fact that four attorneys rather than just two are highlighting some of the same problems should indicate to people that this is serious.

[00:33:29] And even if we can be a little bit skeptical on some of the heathen shaming element, which I frankly am and that's disappointing to see. I think the fundamental arguments here are that he should not be in a prison that cannot accommodate his lawyers.

[00:33:46] And I think that's a very fair argument.

[00:33:48] And I think that argument is something that I've always felt that he should be in some sort of jail or some sort of lower security environment where he can talk with them and not have it be such an ordeal every time for everybody involved.

[00:34:07] And specifically, Attorney Scrimmon suggests that Richard Allen be transferred either to the Allen County Jail or the Adams County Jail. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes absolute sense. Again, Allen County is a big, big county. I think they can handle it.

[00:34:29] And I imagine they have suicide watch within jails too. Maybe I'm wrong. If you work within corrections and you have a better sense of suicide watch capabilities within jail, let us know.

[00:34:40] I would imagine that there's unfortunately suicidal people in jail and that there's a way to deal with that and accommodate it. And from what we've heard, from what we've seen from the filings, I've seen no indication that Allen has been violent with others in prison.

[00:34:59] So I think the fear would be that he hurts himself, not that he hurts another person within prison in terms of the other inmates or guards.

[00:35:07] Again, I may be wrong, but so I think suicide watch is the big thing that you would want to have the mental health resources.

[00:35:16] Yeah, talking about what kind of danger he potentially poses to others. It is interesting these extreme security measures. He's in a cell, in a kitchen. He's chained like Hannibal Lecter. When we've seen him brought into court, he's really chained and manacled.

[00:35:35] And I know someone like Kagan Klein was accused of very different crimes, but I didn't see that level of security with him in court, nor anything even close to it.

[00:35:48] Right. I know people have asked us why in the Idaho case is Brian Coburger not shackled but Richard Allen is. I actually don't know. I don't know if it's a state thing. I don't know if it's a county thing or a specific court thing.

[00:36:02] We don't know what the discrepancy is. But needless to say, we're going to keep an eye on this going forward and keep you all apprised of future developments. Absolutely. Thanks for listening. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

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