The Delphi Murders: Contempt

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[00:02:26] Content warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls as well as the topic

[00:02:33] suicide. Well, Ani and I have just gotten back from a 12-hour day at court in Alacabia Court

[00:02:42] and Fort Wayne in Indiana. There's actually two different hearings in the Richard Allen case today.

[00:02:50] We have don't have a whole lot of time but we're going to try to go through and hear what we think

[00:02:57] the big highlights of the day were and we're going to try to deal with no editing so please be kind.

[00:03:06] My name is Ania Kane, I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney

[00:03:11] and this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:03:16] interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet

[00:03:20] and this is the Delphine murders. Content.

[00:03:50] So with these hearings, we can talk a little bit about the fact that

[00:04:16] Joyce has to arrive early because they're such limited seating. So we were actually outside for

[00:04:22] several hours. It was cold. It was cold. I didn't dress properly and I did the price but that's

[00:04:31] how it goes. And you know, you always see a lot of people outside are you going to get to know

[00:04:35] people in media citizens who are just interested in the case. Always nice to talk with them

[00:04:40] outside as we're all waiting together for an interesting day at court.

[00:04:47] When I finally started, the first couple of things really quickly, the defense did not

[00:04:54] object to the prosecutor's request to amend the charges so that was done. There was some back and

[00:05:01] forth. It did drop. I think the kidnapping charges though. So there was some discussion there

[00:05:06] but it didn't seem like there was really much back and forth. There wasn't much back and forth.

[00:05:10] And then there was a little bit of back and forth, the main focus of the first hearing

[00:05:16] and the hearing which actually dominated the bulk of the day were the contempt charges

[00:05:22] against attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie. And there was some business to take care of

[00:05:28] before they could really begin to go into that portion of the hearing because David Hennessy who

[00:05:34] represents Rosie and Baldwin in this adder that filed some motions, except that we've talked

[00:05:43] about in the show before you wanted to judge your EQ as yourself. One of the prosecuting

[00:05:46] EQs himself and some other things of that nature. And none of his requests were granted.

[00:05:54] No, none of his requests were granted. I thought there was some reasoning behind some of them. So I mean

[00:05:59] you have to try in that situation but they were not granted and things proceeded today. And so

[00:06:06] to be clear, we're kind of even though these are two hearings on the same day with same kind

[00:06:12] of general group of people, they ultimately were somewhat different because essentially the first

[00:06:18] one the content hearing was Hennessy, David Hennessy running the show. That is the attorney who is

[00:06:23] representing attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie sort of bizarre to have an attorney for

[00:06:28] the attorneys, but that's what you get in a contempt situation. And then the latter hearing was

[00:06:34] more Andrew Baldwin's show and of course Brad Rosie had more to do with the facts of the case.

[00:06:39] But they kind of both took on like a slightly different flavor as a result of that.

[00:06:45] But yeah, with Hennessy it was kind of a multi-pronged strategy as I was saying which was kind of

[00:06:52] was reflected in his filings. On the one hand, he brought in some very respected,

[00:06:59] panured season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. First of all, I neglected to mention that when

[00:07:07] the judge first came into the courtroom. Oh my gosh, she started yelling at us immediately. Not

[00:07:13] not you and I specifically yelling the poor courtroom be quiet, very loudly, very angry. And the

[00:07:18] bailiff and the bailiff was yelling to this was it reminded me of like the substitute teacher or

[00:07:23] a teacher coming in yelling at everybody immediately to get everyone to shut up because you want

[00:07:27] to establish that we're not messing around here. And people did shut up. Also, one thing that we've

[00:07:33] heard from some reporters is that they're concerned that a lot of people who are there more on

[00:07:39] like the online side of things are not typically used to like the decorum that comes with the court.

[00:07:44] So like things get more rowdy and chaotic easier. We'll have more on that later.

[00:07:50] Yes, I feel a little bit of a pressure. So Nick MacLean was the one who got to present his

[00:07:57] witnesses first for the contempt part of the day. His first witness was Steve Muller. Can you

[00:08:04] tell us about Steve Muller? Steve Muller and at the time he's been a law enforcement officer

[00:08:10] in the Delphi area for a very long time. At the time of the actual murders in 2017,

[00:08:14] he was the police chief of Delphi and Vienna. So he ran the city police department and he became a

[00:08:20] part of the United Command or unified command rather and kind of his stuck with the case. And now

[00:08:25] has since pivoted to become an investigator for the county prosecutor's office. So he works

[00:08:32] with Nick MacLean as a investigator for him. And so he's kind of involved in his role with the case

[00:08:39] but has certainly been somebody who's been with this case for a long time since the beginning.

[00:08:44] The focus of his testable, he was actually on a stand a few different times today. But the

[00:08:49] focus of his testimony, the first time he was on the stand seemed to be Brandon Woodhouse's leak.

[00:08:58] His, yeah, his wheelhouse is Woodhouse and no contented but whatever. It's marching on

[00:09:04] ward. I'm very tired. So he is there to say here's what we found out regarding this whole Brandon

[00:09:12] Woodhouse situation and what effectively he broke down was it was brought to my attention by a

[00:09:20] tipster that Brandon Woodhouse had released a video that had discovery product in it on YouTube

[00:09:31] and I had to look into that. And he did. And he did. And found out that that came from in

[00:09:38] Baldwin who then said that he had accidentally sent the email to Brandon Woodhouse but meant to send

[00:09:47] it to Brad Rosie. So he says it's an accident. The prosecution is saying it's part of a pattern

[00:09:55] that points to wider content for the court or the very least reckless this with protected

[00:10:01] materials negligence. Yeah. And it seems like there were maybe names of witnesses on this thing

[00:10:08] and including juvenile witnesses whose names at that point had not yet publicly been revealed.

[00:10:14] While we've noted in the past that discovery product is not the same thing as actual discovery,

[00:10:18] it's the it's the byproduct of the defense's work and therefore is somewhat less serious.

[00:10:24] Obviously from the way the prosecution was telling it today, there were certainly

[00:10:29] concerns about that getting out to a random person who subsequently then posted it all over YouTube.

[00:10:37] Also, it wasn't like sometimes you get emails that are supposed to go to other Kevin Greenleys

[00:10:42] right? That's been a kind of a comment. That happens at least once a week. Well happens once a week.

[00:10:46] This was not sent to like some Brad Rosie in like Utah right? This was sent to a guy

[00:10:53] who was maybe being like looked into by the defense as part of their strategy regarding the Delphi case.

[00:11:01] So maybe someone with already a heightened interest in the case and that can be problematic

[00:11:07] because maybe you can't really trust that person to necessarily delete anything

[00:11:13] which will, I don't know. That seems like it came back then to bite them. And also it was a big

[00:11:18] deal was made about how Mullen had to find this out. Like the defense didn't come forward with this

[00:11:25] or at least Andrew Baldwin didn't. So the next witness maybe this is me being really shallow

[00:11:35] and superficial. Whoa, what are you going to say? Well I got especially interested in this particular

[00:11:40] witness's testimony because this witness discussed myself and on yet extensively. Oh god. Yeah.

[00:11:47] Which I'm talking about Lieutenant Jerry Coleman of the Indiana State police. And let me say it's

[00:11:54] a very surreal and very uncomfortable feeling to be sitting in a courtroom as a reporter trying to

[00:12:05] cover a story. And here your name being discussed and banded about don't love it folks. Don't

[00:12:13] don't love it. Yeah, it seemed like some people who could you know maybe quote unquote cover the

[00:12:20] case on the internet were like very excited to possibly get called as witnesses at this thing.

[00:12:25] And I was just like I'm going to break out in halves if they say my name again. Like I don't

[00:12:29] we never wanted to be part of the story to that extent. We wanted to cover it for you guys.

[00:12:34] We did not want to have a role where we had to be talked about in court. That just is not a

[00:12:41] place where journalists wants to be frankly. And I feel we did the right thing. I stand by what we

[00:12:46] did. We alerted both sides to a pretty serious leak of discovery materials. One side was very

[00:12:52] interested in getting more information and the other side that offense didn't seem to share

[00:12:57] that interest for whatever reason, but had they pressed or had they basically asked us we would have

[00:13:01] been more than happy to give them everything. So we weren't trying to mean like it was a situation

[00:13:07] where we basically we didn't know where this came from. We didn't know what was going on.

[00:13:11] We knew this was bad and that whatever side had done this, you know, they were going to be

[00:13:16] serious repercussions. So we wanted to alert both sides because that would allow nobody to cover

[00:13:22] this up. You know everybody would be noted and they could deal with it accordingly. So that was

[00:13:28] always an old one thing that's interesting is perhaps some of you frequent occasionally

[00:13:36] the sewers of Reddit YouTube. And there were all sorts of conspiracy theories out there saying

[00:13:42] that on the night I have lied to you people that we've lied to our listeners that we did not come

[00:13:49] forward with this information to the police when we said we did. We only did it after other people

[00:13:54] had come forward. So at the very least, Lieutenant Homan's testimony today put the lie to that. He said

[00:14:05] on a morning in October he got a phone call from prosecutor Nick McLean who informed him

[00:14:16] that he had just gotten a communication from Becky Paddy who was the grandmother of Liberty

[00:14:21] German and that she had informed him that she had had some information that there were images

[00:14:28] appearing on Facebook and elsewhere of her granddaughter's blood on a tree. So he'd been notified

[00:14:36] by that. He'd been notified of that by Becky Paddy and now he was telling Lieutenant Homan this

[00:14:43] and he indicated almost as soon as he got off the phone with McLean, we called him

[00:14:49] and we said there's been a leak anymore. And he said yeah I've written about the tree and

[00:14:55] there's a lot more than the tree. Yeah, a lot more. They did talk about some of the pictures,

[00:15:02] the crime scene pictures, inward depth at this hearing. I don't really feel comfortable getting

[00:15:09] into that for a number of reasons honestly but you know they were discussed in detail.

[00:15:16] I'll tell you one thing Lieutenant Homan said today that I had not known previously. He said

[00:15:24] in that initial call with us he'd asked us of course to describe the photos and he said that when

[00:15:29] we did he knew based upon our descriptions they had to come from the defense side because at least

[00:15:36] some of the pictures, the descriptions we gave him fit the descriptions of photos and exhibits

[00:15:44] that hadn't put together especially by the defense for use and depositions. Yeah that was definitely

[00:15:51] that was interesting and you know as again, as I said we didn't know what side it came from so we

[00:15:56] we basically aired on the side of caution and tried to alert both. And he further indicated

[00:16:03] that he is he talked with us as we communicated with our source that we provided him with a great

[00:16:11] deal of information about our source including screenshots or printouts of screenshots

[00:16:18] of extensive communication between our source Mark Robert Cohen and the man we're calling are

[00:16:26] and he- And to be clear, we provided that because at that point Mark Cohen didn't want to

[00:16:31] be involved in this anymore and he asked us to essentially hand over this. And to us in that

[00:16:38] situation it's sort of like again we didn't really want to be in the middle of this but at the same

[00:16:42] time we felt that the situation was pretty serious and could compromise a lot of things,

[00:16:48] could compromise the case against Richard Allen, could compromise elements of Richard Allen's

[00:16:52] defense. It just spoke to something very nefarious going on within the case and so we felt you know

[00:16:59] kind of we were obligated to do the right thing. And so the printouts we provided them of all

[00:17:05] these communications were entered as exhibits today with the court. They also entered in exhibits

[00:17:11] we provided Lieutenant Holman with printouts of the crime scene pictures we had received.

[00:17:18] And I'll take a moment here to mention I've seen some people online saying why on earth did Kevin

[00:17:27] and Anya want to print out these awful pictures? Isn't there something tasteless or awful about that?

[00:17:34] And the reason we had to print out those pictures is it was important that there be a record for

[00:17:42] long enforcement of exactly what we received. And these came to us in text messages and so the

[00:17:49] options were to make one printout of them and give them to long enforcement or delete them off of

[00:17:56] our phones or give them our phones. And obviously we could not give them our phones because it's a

[00:18:03] lot of information all those phones about our source. Yeah, there's no way we would ever turn over

[00:18:08] our phones to law enforcement under any circumstances. I'm sorry like that's just not going to

[00:18:14] that would blow way too many sources out of the water. Not just like not even in one case just

[00:18:20] in general. That's bad practice you don't do that. That being said, we did want to show what we had.

[00:18:26] And so this was this was a way around it. And also then allowed us to just delete the stuff on our

[00:18:31] phone. I never want to see any of it again. It was awful. It was just horrifying and I'm just so

[00:18:36] sorry to the families of these two girls that they have to live now with the fact that these things

[00:18:40] are out there. And I'm sure a lot of people have not deleted them. And that makes me really sad

[00:18:45] because they shouldn't have to deal with that. This never should have happened. Mysteries are the

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[00:21:12] To like things up for just a moment, it was also interesting that a case of late lieutenant

[00:21:19] Holman would get a little tongue-pied once he referred to us. He referred to

[00:21:27] Audien, particularly as Mr. Kane. Mr. Kane, that's what they call me.

[00:21:31] Another time you refer to Gourry as Mrs. Kane. That's my mom.

[00:21:38] No it's okay. I mean yeah, there's the Mr. Kane, Mrs. Kane and Ina Kane. So everybody's nobody

[00:21:44] knows what to do. It is a pretty chaotic name and fairness that it's one of those things where

[00:21:53] it was surreal, didn't love that but nothing you know, it's it there were some surprises in

[00:22:00] terms of what the defense side brought up but maybe should we get through that now or?

[00:22:04] I'll get to that now at least at the beginning of it. Attorney Hennessey who's made it clear that he's

[00:22:09] not a fan of this program didn't stop him from appearing on it though check out our episode with

[00:22:14] them. He actually went on, he did interview with the pro defense YouTuber where he actually told a

[00:22:21] rather disturbing lie about me that later had to be retracted because it was so obviously

[00:22:25] blatantly wrong. It's almost like he said it in bad faith and the YouTuber in question to

[00:22:31] need an bothered to check it which he did them very easily. So weird. I wonder if they want a

[00:22:35] smear neutral voices in this case. He referred to us derisively as order sheet people.

[00:22:42] Was he being derisive or was he trying out a hot new branding phrase for us to try out?

[00:22:48] Yeah we're thinking we should start selling key shirts that say murder sheet people and like

[00:22:52] selling for everybody or our patreon or our faces. Yeah, yeah. We're all murder sheet people here.

[00:22:56] He was derisive I think he was he was pulling a don draper in there. No I mean it was definitely

[00:23:01] derisive. Definitely derisive. He's podcasted. Like okay. Again you didn't even plug his own

[00:23:10] appearance. He objected to the admission of some of these communications because of course

[00:23:20] the person we're calling R who was part of those communications later tragically till he's

[00:23:25] own life and he's what because R is deceased. He's not here to authenticate them and

[00:23:33] McLean argued that there are some exceptions to the hearsay rule like admissions against

[00:23:39] your interest and things like that. He was able to get admitted. Yeah.

[00:23:46] And should we talk a little bit about some other things David Hennessy claimed about us in

[00:23:53] particular? That were kind of interesting. Are you talking about the run looking back? I am indeed

[00:23:59] taking away. Oh let's go yeah this was totally like I mean if there's a delphide bingo card

[00:24:05] this one one I was not expecting. I would say that so Kevin and I when we first started

[00:24:12] reporting on it in the beginning we were known for two kind of major documents that we published

[00:24:17] and one was the Kagan Klein trend interestingly enough neither both have been couched by

[00:24:25] commentators who don't know what they're talking about as leaks but neither really fits what's

[00:24:28] happening in the current moment. The Kagan Klein transcripts that we got that was a glitch

[00:24:33] that was a glitch somebody uploaded a document to the wrong thing it went public. Kevin saw it

[00:24:38] we grabbed it and then we had it nobody leaked it to us nobody was saying hey murder she

[00:24:45] better be hanging around my case at 12 p.m like no we just got it it was dumb luck but yeah

[00:24:51] well I kept it made his own luck because he was constantly checking the Kagan. I'm very unhealthily

[00:24:57] obsessive on not a lot of things. It was great I mean you did a great job so that was one the

[00:25:02] second one was the affidavit and search warrant yeah search warrant probably cause affidavit

[00:25:09] for Ronald Logan a man who was a suspect in the case at one point back in in the early days in

[00:25:15] like 2017. This is the man who owned the property on which the girls bodies were found and he seemingly

[00:25:23] had some sort of history of domestic violence or the domestic violence allegations certainly

[00:25:28] and you know there was a lot of scrutiny on him and I think that's understandable if somebody has

[00:25:35] potentially been violent towards women in the past and then people are found dead on their property

[00:25:39] I personally think that's something to look into. You know regardless of whether they're older

[00:25:45] he was in his 70s at the time. So we got this search warrant and affidavit for the search warrant

[00:25:52] and we've never said where our source was and we're not going to say who our source was

[00:25:58] but so they tried Mr. Hennessy tried to make it seem suspicious like where could they possibly

[00:26:04] have gotten this source and the implication I believe was that the people in the courtroom were

[00:26:11] supposed to assume that we got it from someone through a password to the courthouse and was up to

[00:26:19] no good and that's not true. And I'll also go on to say that it is pretty well-known in this

[00:26:30] community that there was another reporter who also got those documents and she receives them

[00:26:36] directly from around Logan. Around Logan in fact possessed these documents lawfully and frequently

[00:26:45] shared them with people. We're offered to share them. And now I'll say another thing when we got

[00:26:50] these documents the gag order was not in place. Richard Allen was not on anybody's radar. But let's

[00:26:57] assume for a moment the gag order was in place. If the gag order was in place the person who shared those

[00:27:05] documents with us was not covered by the gag order and therefore did not violate it. Not even close

[00:27:12] and secondly I think when you trace what I imagine is the kind of the line of where documents came

[00:27:19] from coming from around Logan he's not obligated to keep this secret. I mean those are his documents

[00:27:27] it's his case. He very much felt that law enforcement at a county level in the state police

[00:27:33] ruined his life and that they arrested him. They kind of threw him in prison for a probation violation

[00:27:40] and he felt that his association with this case ruined his life even though he was never charged

[00:27:46] and seemingly they didn't turn up and he will concrete evidence against him. So this was a man

[00:27:51] to had a reason to give out things that showed his side of the story. So I mean it's not it's not

[00:27:57] baffling. We've also like talked about those documents a lot on the show. Like I feel like we

[00:28:03] reported those out a good amount a while ago. So it's just like bizarre to me that they would

[00:28:09] bring them up in this way just to fit a narrative without really doing any digging or due diligence.

[00:28:16] And it's kind of when you see them when you see this defense team make claims,

[00:28:24] it's sometimes tempting to sort of really I mean I certainly always want to hear them out but maybe

[00:28:30] sometimes attempting to be like wow that sounds really good. But when you've been on the receiving

[00:28:34] end of like kind of the kind of jump to conclusions that sort of seems to characterize them sometimes

[00:28:39] it's a little bit like maybe do your homework before making claims. And I'm sure it from Hennessy's

[00:28:46] perspective he doesn't care because it's like there's one content hearing it's not going to come

[00:28:51] back into vitamin anyway but I think things like this and road confidence over time in like the

[00:28:57] ability of us and the truthfulness of people. And so yeah that was one thing it was like wow

[00:29:04] like you're not that's not like apples and oranges that's like apples and like bacon you know I mean

[00:29:10] like I don't know. Were there any points in the cross examination of Lieutenant Holman by

[00:29:18] David Hennessy that you wanted to bring up other than Wurtersheet people?

[00:29:23] I don't know if anything really specific my notes are so crazy my handwriting sounds

[00:29:30] sort of hard to follow to a certain extent. I felt I mean I have things to say about Hennessy's

[00:29:37] performance in general but maybe better to wait the end. Wait the end. He tried to say things like

[00:29:42] oh weren't you weren't you Lieutenant Holman trying to threaten our who later took his own life with

[00:29:47] jail and Lieutenant Holman was saying no I did threaten him with jail but I did say that the

[00:29:53] judge in the case indicated she might jail people so I'm trying to give him information without

[00:29:58] threatening. So they were back and forth on issues like that. There were also there was something

[00:30:05] around that with like yeah you like basically Hennessy also accused the judge of running her

[00:30:11] investigation because I think Holman said something to the effect with our oh you know the judge

[00:30:16] is unhappy or like I'm going to look into this for the judge. The judge did order the investigation

[00:30:23] she ordered the parties to investigate this so there's like truth in it from that angle but Hennessy

[00:30:29] was taking that to mean like the judge has put on a deer stalker cap grabbed a magnifying glass

[00:30:35] and is roaming around the moors trying to figure out what's going on and obviously that would be

[00:30:41] super inappropriate for a judge. Super inappropriate. And she also shot that down pretty fast and

[00:30:46] I'm not doing that basically like what are you talking about. I think it's an aspect of like

[00:30:51] do you need to recuse yourself because you're too deep into the mystery and I saw what they're

[00:30:57] trying to do there. I just don't really feel like they kind of I mean a lot of it seemed to be

[00:31:01] like games with semantics. Another thing that came up in Cross there have been some illusions

[00:31:07] to these text messages that we shared there were some illusions to our suggesting that he knew

[00:31:15] Andy clearly reference to Andy Baldwin and Hennessy got Holman to say that Holman,

[00:31:21] Lieutenant Holman was never able to find any evidence that would corroborate a direct personal

[00:31:29] relationship between Bar and Baldwin. There was also a back and forth on part of Hennessy's

[00:31:41] defense is well there's other crime scene photos that lead to and maybe some of you're aware

[00:31:47] of this. Maybe you're not. We've talked about it on the show. And obviously everybody who's listening

[00:31:53] to this as murder sheet people have listened to every show countless times. That's what we expect

[00:31:58] from every murder sheet person guys. But there were some people who are part of a search party

[00:32:05] who found some of the girls clothing items and they took pictures of those

[00:32:11] and those leaked by the searchers. And so Hennessy was trying to suggest where these pictures

[00:32:18] taken by searchers of clothing are crime scene photos that also leaks therefore this

[00:32:24] other thing isn't that bad. And Holman made the point that there's a difference between crime scene

[00:32:30] photos taken by police who are controlling a crime scene and so-called crime scene pictures

[00:32:37] taken by searchers before police even show up. Lieutenant Holman also said that you don't have

[00:32:44] a crime scene until the crime is actually uncovered because you don't know where exactly

[00:32:49] the crime took place. And at the time the searchers took these pictures of the clothing items it

[00:32:55] was not known that this was in fact a crime scene. And I should note that Judge Gull seemed

[00:32:59] very inclined to agree with him on that. Like that you know, it's like definitely that's not

[00:33:04] a crime scene. And also it's just a very different kettle of fish when you have civilian

[00:33:12] searchers making a bad decision versus law enforcement or versus the defense attorneys themselves.

[00:33:20] It becomes more important when it's people in an official capacity rather than civilian volunteers.

[00:33:25] David has he made a number of interesting choices today. We all know what we mean when we say

[00:33:32] interesting. One of them that surprised me is he made a point of bringing up the fact that

[00:33:38] Mitch Westerman had a girlfriend in Franklin. Yeah, I'm like are they trying to slam this guy?

[00:33:44] I mean like yeah I was kind of surprised by that.

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[00:34:08] Hey it's Kaylee Cuoco for Price Line. Ready to go to your happy place for a happy price?

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[00:34:35] price. Price line. Have you heard you can listen to your favorite gripping investigations ad-free?

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[00:34:53] or go to amazon.com slash ad-free true crime. That's amazon.com slash ad-free true crime

[00:35:00] to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Next witness is Ben Ractor.

[00:35:06] Who's Ben Ractor? What did he have? He is a detective for the Indiana State Police. He investigated

[00:35:12] the leak and he was here today to speak to some of the more in-depth investigation into that leak.

[00:35:20] So what I mean by that is data they were able to uncover from Mitch Westerman's phone

[00:35:28] mostly is what he spoke to. So what do I mean by that? Well it would appear that

[00:35:34] Mitch Westerman's phone is actually locked. They can't get into it. They estimated that they

[00:35:39] might be able to get into it in like two years. I think that was the date thrown around but they

[00:35:45] did have a bit of a back door because they were able to get into Mitch's iCloud account

[00:35:51] in which he had saved screenshots of his communications with a person named Andy. I wonder who that is.

[00:35:59] Who knows but yeah so that there's apparently a number of interesting communications

[00:36:06] memorialized in these screenshots. I guess you would also have to ask yourself

[00:36:12] why would Mitch Westerman be taking screenshots? Typically I would take a screenshot of a text

[00:36:20] either if for some reason oh on you said something really memorable here. I want to remember it forever.

[00:36:25] Do you think that's what he was doing? Oh Andy you're such a card. Or you take screenshots because

[00:36:30] you're sharing them with other people. More likely? But we're not they say that in the screenshot there

[00:36:37] discussions about the case and impressions of people. Well it loves to know who their dish and the hot

[00:36:43] gossip on. But those have been sealed. Is there anything else you want to say about their

[00:36:49] rector testimony? I think one thing that came out to me in the rector testimony and this was

[00:36:55] murdered and speaking with the you know just Mitch Westerman occupies a very bizarre

[00:37:02] position in this case. The defense initially seemed to try to sell him as a a random friend who

[00:37:10] oops did a burglary and stole a bunch of stuff. And then they kind of tried to backtrack with

[00:37:15] that and say actually he is a trusted consultant sought throughout the Indiana counties for his

[00:37:24] legal expertise and strategic insights. And those are two very different things he's the

[00:37:30] bumbling clownish friend who did something really bad or he is like I guess like some sort of like

[00:37:36] yago to Andy who's like sabotaging him and as like his trusted advisor both kind of feel like

[00:37:44] weird fits to me because the Mitch Westerman we talked to was just a guy who seemed really

[00:37:49] enthusiastic about his friend Andrew Baldwin. I still don't understand why he did any of this.

[00:37:54] But that being said, I think it does underscore to me an issue when it comes to blurring the lines

[00:38:03] between friends and colleagues and the dangers that that can present when you're working with

[00:38:07] confidential materials in a highly charged case like this. Yes. And then it's lunch break.

[00:38:15] And I didn't get lunch. I just stayed in. I didn't get lunch either. We were there for 12

[00:38:21] hours we didn't eat. I just didn't I wasn't hungry. Oh aren't you so sweet? I was just feeling sick.

[00:38:28] So we all knew that coming up ahead David had to say would be presenting his case and if you are

[00:38:34] familiar with such things as I imagine you are you're aware that his witness list contained a

[00:38:42] number of YouTubers of shall I say less than sterling reputation. One of them who didn't appear

[00:38:51] to show up today a woman named Courtney Parsons and I highlight her in particular because last week

[00:39:00] she decided that oh I think there's a person who works as a court reporter who happens to be

[00:39:07] a member of the murder sheet Facebook group. This must mean that she is a secret source for them.

[00:39:13] She is not and so she took this person's name and blasted it on social media which resulted in

[00:39:21] this person deleting her social media. So I've never communicated with this court reporter but

[00:39:27] generally speaking if you're in a situation where you delete your social media you're not feeling

[00:39:32] very good or very happy. Well it's like it's just harassment for the sake of harassment. I mean there's no

[00:39:37] like they're not they've not uncovered something. It's just like let's go after whoever and that's what

[00:39:42] these people do and that's why I mean frankly I think it's disheartening to me the defense has

[00:39:48] attracted so many people like that. I think there's a certain level of bizarre behavior

[00:39:53] for the prosecution side of people but I think it is typically lesser in scope at this point. Maybe

[00:39:59] it'll grow. I don't know. I mean I hope not we don't we don't need more insanity but I do feel like

[00:40:06] there is this element of the defense where it is that there's absolute disaster. I mean it's

[00:40:12] like people who are human disasters should go around and try to make everybody else feel bad so

[00:40:16] it's kind of where that's where we are. So currently persons do not appear to be there today.

[00:40:21] Angel Sabowski did not appear to be there today. Rick Snae, a last minute edition

[00:40:28] to the witness list. I am sure he was going to be the star witness for the defense.

[00:40:35] That's what I was going to blow the whole thing open. I swear to God this guy has you know he has

[00:40:40] his finger on the pulse of substance. So over the lunch break he got some sort of physical

[00:40:45] conversation with another gentleman in his result both of them were barred from the court ask.

[00:40:50] That's that's where we are class also everybody behind the scenes has been calling this forever

[00:40:56] because they've been publicly feuding on their YouTube channels so like this was like the most

[00:41:01] inevitable thing but what made me what made me like laugh a bit is that like I mean like for

[00:41:06] for an internet crank I mean getting called as a witness what a cool opportunity and like

[00:41:10] couldn't even hold it together. It had to turn into like a high school fist fight before that

[00:41:15] big chance and like wow just talk about impulse control just fascinating but that's I mean

[00:41:21] that's the atmosphere here it's it's a bit carnival ask when you bring in a bunch of

[00:41:27] YouTubers and try to tell them as experts in something or tell them as having anything to say

[00:41:34] that's relevant or credible. So we'll never know what he would have tested for me. I'm sure he

[00:41:39] would have blown the whole thing open. I'm still waiting for that. Julie Melvin was there and Stephen

[00:41:45] Wood uses the name Skip Jensen online with there but they were not the first witnesses call

[00:41:50] after lots. The first witnesses were attorney Don Boren. I mean these other names Kate Bieler

[00:42:00] and Andrew Matternowski. These guys I felt when I heard these three it is trio. These were

[00:42:08] this was it. I mean this you could have done just this and maybe poke some other holes into the

[00:42:15] state's case or made the argument that the press release wasn't really contab because of the timing

[00:42:21] but these these two gentlemen and this lady of these attorneys are all very seasoned tenured

[00:42:28] lawyers with years and years of experience amongst them and all very professional engaging. I

[00:42:36] enjoyed hearing from them. We found out that Mr. Boren worked on the Steve Judy case. I mean

[00:42:42] that's an notorious murder case that we'll probably do an episode. Yeah that's that's really wow.

[00:42:46] So they basically made the argument that we don't think what Baldwin Rosie did rises to the level.

[00:42:52] One of my favorite parts about this is that whenever Nickmick Lealon asked all of them if

[00:42:59] they ever lied to a judge or the court, they all like I mean they didn't quite do this but they

[00:43:04] all like gasped almost like never. Of course not. It was just I just they were delightful. I just

[00:43:10] will tell you my favorite part. Yeah it blows your favorite part out of the water. Go ahead.

[00:43:16] John Boren at one point indicates that at some point in his career he knew a man named race

[00:43:24] horse Haynes. Oh yeah that what was that? I don't care but I loved it. Yeah that was important too.

[00:43:31] I want to stand up and cheer. So then Julie Melvin comes to the stand and she is apparently there

[00:43:41] to testify that you know sometimes on Facebook and other things she sees things that might be

[00:43:47] bleak from somewhere. Wow Julie you cracked the case. And Nick McLealon objected as that you know

[00:43:53] we're talking about specific material that was leaked and protected by a court order. This is just

[00:43:59] random stuff. Miss Melvin just happens to see what is the relevancy here and ultimately the judge

[00:44:07] agree and Julie Melvin left the stand without saying very much at all which is kind of to be expected

[00:44:16] when you bring in somebody like that somebody who's like maybe a best in internet sleuth and at worst

[00:44:21] a crank who has harassed Lindy's family for years. I would say that you're kind of bringing that on

[00:44:30] yourself and that's part of the reason why I kind of I don't know cast him into the side I with

[00:44:36] Hennessy about taking all that strategy because it seems like you're risking a lot of your credibility

[00:44:45] for very little game and like does he I mean like I heard reporters in the hallway if you know

[00:44:52] beforehand and and I'd not have to worry it's not to where we just needed but beforehand sort of

[00:44:57] being like well who are these people and like what like are they going to even be allowed to testify

[00:45:03] because they're just like these random internet fake and has nothing to do with it. No let's say for

[00:45:07] instance Anya as we all expect is arrested for stealing a bunch of boxes of cereal. Oh my god

[00:45:14] and her defense is well you know judge last week Kevin made a box of cereal but he bought lawfully

[00:45:23] it's like okay or even if you want to say Kevin's last week stole a box of crackers

[00:45:28] okay but that doesn't address whether or not you stole the cereal. Yeah and it was just like

[00:45:33] bizarre because we I mean like to be honest like Kevin and I kept on like running into Hennessy

[00:45:38] and Melvin on the town the night before. Yeah so it's just bizarre to see like an attorney in this

[00:45:44] case pally around with somebody who does not have a very good reputation even within the internet

[00:45:49] sphere of this case. I mean that's I'm putting it very politely to say that I would not say that

[00:45:54] this is a person that is like an underground favorite you know like there's other people like do not

[00:46:01] respect at all but I could say like okay I can see how they have an internet following here

[00:46:05] but with her it's always just been one disaster after another so the fact that they're like yes

[00:46:10] this is this is the person to wine and dine. I mean like I guess she got a free hotel stay out of it

[00:46:16] but like I I don't really see how it benefited them because it was again the worst of both she didn't

[00:46:21] even get to cause any chaos because the judge shut it down so they just look foolish for nothing

[00:46:27] the defense looked foolish by bringing this woman and I'm sorry that's very blunt but that's

[00:46:31] what the truth is. And they brought it to Stephen Wood otherwise known as Skip Jensen he talked about

[00:46:36] how he's great friends with Gary Budette who's known as Fig Solves that loss of great conversations

[00:46:42] which skip of course without the blood saying or approval of Mr. Budette shared with the defense

[00:46:48] teams just like a good friend does but ultimately again this was the same issue whatever Mr.

[00:46:54] Budette may or may not have done whatever Mr. Budette may or may not have leaked it has nothing

[00:46:59] to do with the actual issues being addressed here. You can't yeah they felt if the defense felt

[00:47:07] that and you know something the prosecution was doing specifically rose to the level of

[00:47:12] contemptuous behavior they can file something they can take care of that they can address that but

[00:47:18] you can't just try to ring unconnected stuff in and again frankly like there are claims about

[00:47:26] Gary Budette I have my doubts about I have my doubts about the level of his connection with Nick

[00:47:32] McLean. I very much imagined that he was sending to Cleveland stuff but I think he would have

[00:47:39] to rise to the level of Nick McLean you know pulling him aside say hey Gary you're about that bullet

[00:47:44] you know it's coming out it would have to be something like that to mirror the mid situation for

[00:47:49] me and I don't feel like they have any proof of that or they would have shown. I think Ross Steve

[00:47:56] Mullin back Steve Mullin said under questioning by Hennessey yeah we gave the defense team lots

[00:48:03] and lots of hard drives and flash drives for discovery materials then they were in Jerry

[00:48:09] Lieutenant Jerry Holman back and they get Jerry Holman to answer more questions about us what

[00:48:16] big question was did the murder sheet people which is getting what he called us over to him

[00:48:21] the murder sheet people did the murder sheet people ever tell you they had pictures of the victims

[00:48:27] clothings or pictures showing shoe prints or tripod indentations and Lieutenant Holman was like no

[00:48:34] because we never did we never had such pictures the only thing I could think it was clothing is that

[00:48:39] everybody got sent those searcher images and we've actually reported that on the show that we

[00:48:43] had those so we've been over about that I have no idea what he's talking about tripod

[00:48:48] pod that just sounds again like something you probably got from one of this little internet sleuth

[00:48:52] and it's like I don't know like why would I look at an accredited qualified attorney want to go

[00:48:59] that route I don't understand it it was it was it was there was a degree of second-hand embarrassment

[00:49:06] watching him next witness none other than Brad Rosie who gave it Hennessey called Mr. Rossi his name

[00:49:14] is pronounced Rosie people who know him have told us this I don't know why he's representing this man

[00:49:19] and he doesn't even know what to say his own name they seemed to have a weirdly combative

[00:49:23] relationship to be honest I didn't understand that Rosie did try to make excuses for

[00:49:29] Hennessey one problem there was the acoustics in his room were terrible and so

[00:49:35] speaking in somewhat of a garbled manner Hennessey was somewhat hard to follow at times although that

[00:49:39] was partially not his fault because of the way the room was and Rosie really it's happened

[00:49:45] in everyone no one gonna hear each other but I felt like there was like some weird tension between them

[00:49:50] that I didn't really understand uh maybe it was the name I don't know uh Rosie also talked a lot about

[00:49:57] the press release that the defense team issued where they stringlessly argued for the innocence of

[00:50:02] Richard Allen he indicated that when they released this they weren't trying to try the case in the

[00:50:07] public they just wanted to show Richard Allen they supported him yeah what he literally said that is

[00:50:13] what he literally said I think it's a fair argument for him to make listen these and they did

[00:50:19] make this argument and I kind of agreed with it like the other guys have gotten to try the case

[00:50:23] in the press all they want now we come on the scene that's not fair I think there's some I think

[00:50:28] there's some trees in that but yeah saying oh we we stand by you buddy like that I don't know that

[00:50:33] okay um I also think it's a fair argument that like hey it's not really breaking the gag order

[00:50:38] because technically it didn't go down until after we did that although I also understand like

[00:50:43] the more context they give on the in-changers meaning the more it sounds like they kind of like

[00:50:48] told told the judge they wouldn't do this and there's no like recording of what exactly was said so

[00:50:55] I think they kind of were maybe that helps them in that situation uh another thing that really

[00:51:00] jumped out to me about Brad Rosie's testimony is that in the in the test of money from the other

[00:51:06] attorneys and stuff they try to make a big deal yeah sure and rootballed when accidentally sent

[00:51:12] this material to Brandon Woodhouse and he did not inform the court of it for quite a while afterwards

[00:51:19] but that's not a big deal why would you why would you think you need to do something like that

[00:51:24] and Rosie said well as soon as I found out about it months later I immediately notified the court

[00:51:30] so maybe Brad Rosie thinks it is a big deal I mean I feel like out of I mean we'll talk about this

[00:51:38] in a minute I guess because I wish probably no who was not called right who was not called Andrew

[00:51:43] Baldwin yes it's interesting the person the attorney who's most intimately connected with these

[00:51:49] events was not called yeah it makes you wonder why it raises some questions which I will and we

[00:51:56] shall litter audience pondering on the road yeah two on that also I feel like if I were Rosie I'd be

[00:52:02] like I don't know I'd be pretty mad this was not his office this did not happen with one of his

[00:52:09] friends I feel like Rosie has I mean it sounds like he's very much standing with Baldwin in this but to me

[00:52:21] I don't know he's a person where it doesn't really like I feel like this definitely reflects

[00:52:28] far less badly on him because he's just does not have that proximity and if I were him if I were

[00:52:33] in that position and I was essentially potentially being punished because something my partner was

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[00:55:43] to try audible free for 30 days I like to mention it other than the Hennessy said they really jumped

[00:55:51] out at me he said if there are elite crime scene pictures earths if there are elite crime scene

[00:55:57] photos still out there it is the fault of law enforcement because they didn't do their job and go

[00:56:02] and get them all and that seemed to be an interesting thing to say because there was his team that

[00:56:07] was supposed to stop them from getting out in the first place yeah that's sort of like being like

[00:56:12] you know it's the EPA's fault for not you know cleaning up this super fun site that we created as a

[00:56:17] business I think also I mean at this point they're out there at some point to me it seemed like

[00:56:24] a containable leak but I think pretty early on they got to YouTube and then people spread them

[00:56:31] even people who said they didn't spread them and it I don't know what they're supposed to do

[00:56:37] they can't really just kick down everybody's doors at this point it's it's too late and that's

[00:56:43] yeah that seemed like a very like lack of personal responsibility sort of argument I thought Hennessy

[00:56:50] shined for lack of a better word when he had experienced attorneys talking about how this is

[00:56:56] it really that big of a deal or maybe it is a big deal but you know stuff happens and it doesn't

[00:57:01] rise to level content that was when I found the arguments that he was making pretty strong or at

[00:57:08] least like wow that's that's good but when I think he totally totally just like he really I don't

[00:57:17] know he struggled with those those internet folks those you know the steves and the jubis it just

[00:57:24] it just honestly kind of it was like it was just a mess and they got shot down so quickly so it was

[00:57:31] like a get entarnished credibility for no reason for no reason didn't there was no benefit even if

[00:57:36] they'd gotten up there and call us some chaos then maybe it would have been worth it

[00:57:40] so we are running short on time anything else you wanted to say about Hennessy before we move on

[00:57:44] I thought he did generally a pretty bad job and he sounded like I mean he was he was calling kept

[00:57:50] in calling woodhouse woodson getting people's names wrong getting his own clients names wrong of

[00:57:56] name wrong he he seemed to be having a lot of trouble hearing and then other people hearing him

[00:58:03] and at some point like he just had like static going off I think like with one of his devices I

[00:58:07] just felt bad because it just felt like this didn't it didn't feel like a very smooth performance

[00:58:12] it didn't feel like a very compelling performance and it just felt like I it I were rosy and bald

[00:58:20] when I would not be happy with that defense I didn't think he did a good job defending them

[00:58:25] it's not that I think like Nick McClillin did like an amazing slam dunk job but like I thought

[00:58:31] he did well and I just thought I just thought Hennessy just looked kind of confused and frazzled

[00:58:37] by the end of this thing I agree baldwood did have a chance to step up in the next hearing which

[00:58:42] was covered the motion to dismiss the whole case because of the destruction of potentially

[00:58:49] exculpatory evidence this is the claim that because an interview with Brad Holder was erased

[00:58:59] that's that interview they should have known it was exculpatory and they should have known

[00:59:03] the bioracing that they were damaging the case and so basically Andrew Baldwin had to stand up

[00:59:09] and with his witnesses show that in 2017 at the time this interview was erased the prosecution

[00:59:16] law enforcement should have known how important it was based on the information they had but the

[00:59:24] problem is it's like Andrew Baldwin with his witnesses Todd click and Amber Holder focused

[00:59:33] entirely or at least almost entirely on things happening after 2017 after the destruction of the

[00:59:42] interview I say destruction after it was erased so is this a dumb example and tell me if it is

[00:59:48] because I want them to know that my analogies are not all winners they already probably know

[00:59:52] like if I make a big if I make a cake and I put it in the kitchen and like you eat it

[00:59:59] like whether or not I'm allowed to get mad at you for it depends on like when I told you it was

[01:00:04] very important for me to save this cake like if I told you afterwards that this was supposed to be

[01:00:08] for like a fancy dinner party I'm throwing maybe I should have told you that ahead of time

[01:00:12] instead of just leaving it out there tempting you whereas if I told you like the day before

[01:00:17] don't eat this cake then I'm gonna put out there then you're more busted and what he had to do was

[01:00:22] show they they knew in 2017 and he didn't even try he was focusing on other things entirely it's like

[01:00:30] he was putting out the Frank's memorandum he was putting up the odon hysteria again it's like if

[01:00:35] you go to play a football game with a baseball cap and a baseball bat it was strange and the judge

[01:00:44] got frustrated with him the judge at one point they they she called all the council to to the bench

[01:00:50] and she I we I don't remember what the quote was but I we heard or say something along the lines of

[01:00:55] like if you don't basically like put any of this in 2017 then you're wasting everybody's time

[01:01:02] and that's true you may be wondering well isn't it a big deal that they may have racist potentially

[01:01:06] that's something they could potentially pitch to the jury and say that this was a big deal

[01:01:10] and it hurt our case and here's why bad here's why they're in conflict and when it came time for

[01:01:15] the state to call that witness they called Steve Mullin again and he explained in great detail

[01:01:22] that it was an accident on erasure excruciating detail he explained how this happened and essentially

[01:01:27] it was a glitch nobody did this on purpose it was some sort of technical glitch that went off

[01:01:32] and it's it's bad but it feels like again they're putting it out there they're kind of like

[01:01:39] letting the prosecution know their strategy well before trial and to what end I ask because to me

[01:01:47] something to raise to the level of a case being thrown out would have to be something that actually

[01:01:55] fits the rules on that and that would be something where they they knew very well that this was

[01:02:03] a big deal this this older interview but if if holders just a guy who a few people tipped in they

[01:02:09] talked to him he has an alibi and that's not then that doesn't necessarily look important to them

[01:02:15] at that time that's not like a sus and when you have like them being inundated the tips I just don't

[01:02:20] see that and again the defense can beat them up over in a trial and that might be a good idea because

[01:02:26] then it makes it looking competent and that's that's good for the debates but like in this cross

[01:02:31] examination Baldwin was trying to score points by saying oh once he realized in August 2017

[01:02:36] that interview was erased why didn't you go and do another interview with him and Mullin was like

[01:02:41] you know this guy was never a key suspect because he had a good alibi he was it worked at the time so yeah

[01:02:48] it's it just feels like I don't know like some of this stuff it's just not it's not hitting the

[01:02:56] level that you think it would be different the defense so close to trials anything they're not

[01:03:00] hitting that level of like scoring the points they need to score to help them go into this trial

[01:03:08] and I don't know it feels like a lot of table jumping frankly you know if you have the facts

[01:03:14] how in the facts you have a lot how in the wise count the table so let's wrap by talking about

[01:03:20] what we should expect next it's not clear when judge goal is the new issue a ruling on whether or

[01:03:27] not to dismiss the case based on what we saw today I mean I don't know I know there's a lot of

[01:03:33] suspense there she indicated that she's going to give Hennessy a week to write a memorandum

[01:03:39] on the contempt issue and then she's going to give McLean a week to write a response brief and

[01:03:45] presumably she will rule like within 30 days after that and apparently that takes us all up till

[01:03:51] like a week before trial so I think we can all assume that there's not anything gonna happen in

[01:03:55] the mix and for more of this stuff I can say that in general I felt like the defense did not show

[01:04:03] it's strong aside today I hope that they can kind of recalibrate once this contempt issue is done

[01:04:10] and perhaps kind of maybe finesse some things because if I were in Richard Allen's camp at this

[01:04:16] point I would be very concerned about performance it's just not things don't seem to be clicking I

[01:04:22] don't know I feel like the performances there needs to be more cohesion there needs to be more

[01:04:28] credibility and I think with the prosecution by just playing it safe and kind of playing it close

[01:04:35] to the best they're kind of seem to be running in circles around them with some of these hearings

[01:04:41] and that can't be a good feeling if you're in Richard Allen's scene and it's always time for us to

[01:04:47] wrap up when audience first making accidental puns just talking about things clicking and one of

[01:04:51] the witnesses of course was Todd Clinton I genuinely felt so sorry for Todd click and for Amber

[01:04:57] holder because they basically got dragged up here and then their testimony was essentially worthless

[01:05:02] for the actual hearing and then we're sort of dismissed abruptly and like that's good that's

[01:05:07] gonna be that's gonna be disordering because you know they came up here trying to share their stories

[01:05:10] and it wasn't it wasn't the appropriate moment it didn't really fit what the hearing was bad I

[01:05:15] I genuinely was like that that's not cool for them well we have to go let's know if you have any

[01:05:20] questions on any of this we can always cover more but in depth later thank you so much for listening

[01:05:25] and obviously we will keep an eye out in a year out for further developments thanks everybody bye

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